Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Kevin Carroll, Author, Speaker, Creative Catalyst

Episode Date: January 16, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Kevin Carroll, an author, speaker and creative catalyst.It is Kevin’s job to inspire businesses, organizations and individuals - from CEOs and employees of Fortune 500 companies to schoolchildren - to embrace their spirit of play and creativity to maximize their human potential and sustain more meaningful business and personal growth.He has helped turn creative ideas into reality for organizations such as Nike, Starbucks, Adidas, Walt Disney, Target, Proctor & Gamble, Under Armour, Mattel, the NBA and many others.The focus of this conversation is much more about how Kevin became the man he is today rather than the “what” of his accomplishments so I want to give a quick rundown of Kevin’s stops along the way.Raised by his grandparents in Philadelphia, Kevin spent endless hours at the neighborhood playground where he found his calling: a red rubber ball.His subsequent pursuit of play and his ‘red rubber ball’ took him overseas with the Air Force, where he served as a language interpreter and translator, gaining fluency in Croatian, Czech, Serbian, and German.After serving in the Air Force for ten years and earning his college degree, Kevin became an athletic trainer at the high school and collegiate levels in Philadelphia.His expertise in sport performance recognized by the 76ers organization and led to his job as the Head Athletic Trainer for the Philadelphia 76ers in 1995.While at the 76ers, Nike tapped Kevin to bring his unique experiences to the sneaker giant in 1997.Although no job “officially” existed at the time, Kevin was directed to create a position at the company that would add value to the overall mission of the brand.Kevin left Nike in 2004 to create his own company, Kevin Carroll Katalyst, committed to elevating the power of sport and play around the world._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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mastery is sustaining that beginner's mindset. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea behind this podcast, behind these conversations, is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And we want to understand what they're searching for. We want to dig to understand their psychological framework, which is really how do they make sense of the world and themselves in it.

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So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. That's David D-A-V-I-D protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. All right. This week's conversation is with Kevin Carroll, and he's an author, a speaker, and a creative catalyst. And what Kevin means by creative catalyst is that he

helps to spark. He helps to gel and organize and even harden the creative process for people so that they can express themselves. And Kevin has created a life that is completely bespoke and customized to him. And he has authentically followed his passion. And his life mission is to inspire businesses and organizations and individuals. And that includes everyone from CEOs of Fortune 500 companies all the way through to school children. And that includes everyone from CEOs of Fortune 500 companies all the way through to school children. And I watched him do it with my son. And I've seen him do it with some of the most influential people in the sport world. And his whole mission really is to embrace their spirit of play and creativity. And it's all aimed toward expressing potential.

And he's turned creative ideas into reality for organizations that I'm familiar with, such as Nike and Starbucks and Adidas, Walt Disney, Target, Procter Gamble, Mattel, inside the NBA. He's really done some influential work with some influential organizations. And the focus of this conversation is much more about how Kevin became the man that he is today, rather than the what of his accomplishments. So I want to give a quick rundown of Kevin's adventures along the way. Early in his life, he served in the Air Force, where he was a language interpreter and translator, gaining fluency in Croatian, Czech,

Serbian. Obviously, he's fluent in English. So he's got a command of language. It's a unique part of how his brain works. And then after serving in the Air Force for 10 years and earning his college degree, Kevin became an athletic trainer. And he did it in the college ranks and the high school ranks. And eventually, he was tapped by the 76ers to do it in the NBA. And he was the head athletic trainer for the 76ers in 1995. And while at the 76ers, Nike reached out to him and they didn't reach out for his athletic training skills. They reached out because they saw something very special that he was doing within the organization. And it was that spark of genius and compelling way that he has, which will show up

in this conversation, about how to help people play and be more creative and find their very best through that process. Although no job officially existed at the time for Kevin, Kevin was directed to create a position at the company that would add value to the overall mission of the brand. I mean, how perfect is that, especially when you hear how he thinks and the way he organizes his life. And then in 2004, seven years later, he left Nike to create his own company, Kevin Carroll Catalyst. And Catalyst is spelled with a K. And when you ask him about that, he says the K is for Kevin.

And so he's committed to elevating the power of sport and play around the globe. And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Kevin Carroll. Kevin, how are you? Dr. Mike, what's going on? Here we are. The gift of being in front of you right now is it's something that it's funny how things work is that I'm going through some really introspective, deep work, business development stuff. And then here I am in front of you, one of the brightest minds in understanding people, what's possible and the mechanics to

help people grow. And I think that, you know, when I think about you and your genius, it's difficult to articulate. And so I just want to say that up front, that your genius is rare. I just want to say thank you in advance for this time together. I did the reverse red eye. So my flight left at seven in the morning in Orlando, which is four in the morning on the West Coast. I got back home at noon, scurried around, got this room set up for this moment to have this podcast. And I was thinking about our exchange. And I said, you know, we rarely have had this kind of an opportunity where there's not other people around us. Where we can just have, you know, we can just have a combo, right? A catalytic one, hopefully. And when you came in the room, right, and you said, oh, this couldn't be a better time

to be in front of you. And when you started sharing a little bit of what's going on and what you're thinking about and what you're contemplating, and it immediately, it sparks me, right? Because I'm like, well, I'm an idea guy. Well, let's talk. And so I'm happy to give you a salvo of possibilities, you know, as we had this conversation, but even more so to make you pause a little bit. I think so many times you're so generous with what you're giving and people are asking of you, but you just asked me for something and what a wonderful turnabout, right? Of responsibilities or opportunities because you're asked all the time, right? How do I get better? How do I change my mindset? How do I do this? How do I become a high performer? but then for you to actually say to me, this couldn't be a better time

to be in front of you, Kevin. So that just made me realize, okay, now I'm going to feed you. So we're good. We're shifting gears. That does out, right? That does out, right? That does out. Well, you know, so I would imagine that in this experience that we have today, and by the way, I think you know this, there's nothing ever scripted with me. And I know that about you as well. So it always is a bit of a mystery how the next moment will unfold. And the love of that mystery and the not knowing of how it unfold keeps me on my toes. And so, especially with somebody as smart as you, somebody as insightful as you, somebody that is as quick and to the point, you know, like, so I can't wait to see how this conversation goes.

Yes, I know. It should be robust, right? I would imagine inspiring, but also I think unexpected. I think there's going to be a lot of pivots and turns where people won't anticipate. And I think that will make for a great conversation and great listening for sure. Yeah. Okay. So just in context, you live here in Portland. Yes. You were on the East Coast for some work. Yes.

You came back for this conversation and you're leaving tomorrow back to Orlando? Yes. Like the gratitude's immense for that. So the important thing too, I always understand that if we say we're in service, right, of humanity, then we need to behave that way, right? And act that way. But not looking for someone to say, oh man, that's amazing. No, no, it's just how I am. It's what I'm called to do. And I understand that. And I think that so many times a lot of people talk out both sides of their mouth, right? They're saying they're about something, but they truly aren't because they'll complain the whole time. Well, you know, I got really early and I came back here and I'm doing this thing. I'm doing

you the solid. And so I hope you really appreciate. And they give you, they might not say that, but it's the energy they're giving. And instead I'm thinking like, Mike and I don't get a chance to be around each other like that. When I knew there was a conflict in my schedule, I just worked around it, dude. I got to work around. I didn't even like hesitate. I'm like, I'll find a way. Cause I said, I'm not going to miss this. You're in Portland? Yeah. Right? And so I said, I could get him in my office space and we can hang? Like, no, I'm not. No, I'll come back. Okay.

So let's do this. Let's re-vector this a little bit. So there's a two-way appreciation here. What would be the most useful way for us to spend our time from your point of view. And what I want to do with you is I really want to understand and celebrate where you've come from, what you've learned and how you serve humanity. That's really what I want to do. And at the same time, I say this to people kind of on the regular before the mics turn on, I say, Hey, you know, you got me, ask me whatever you want. And it ends up not ever really going there, but somehow I think it's going to go there with you. So I say that in advance because let's just kind of shape this

as we go. And serving humanity, where did you start? Where did you develop you and go as far back as you want to take us to the early experiences in your life that when you look back now, were foundational. Honestly, when I go back to my childhood and the difficulties we were dealing with, the dysfunction and the upheaval, the addiction and the abandonment that we had in our youth until my grandparents rescued us, I really do think that was a turning point. So my grandparents rescue us after both my parents were addicts and they leave us and abandon us. We return back to Philadelphia.

There's a bunch of circumstances in there, right? But there's big time stuff. How old were you? Six years old. And I know the story. Walk, just for context. This is too important to just say abandonment and rescue. I've never heard anybody that's had your experience.

Pin in that. I've never heard anybody that has the same experiences in life. But yours is radically different. So when you start to think about that nurture nature question, right? And are you a product of your environment or not? And I remember, you know, the moving all the time, right? And my mom waking us in the middle of the night, let's go get up. We're moving. Let's go get up. We're moving. And imagine that's your childhood. That's your normal, that you're sleeping in get high buddies houses and cars on porches. And you don't really have a sense of family or home,

except when your grandparents come and rescue from time to time, or your mom just leaves you there for a week or so at a time, and then comes back and then starts it again. So my normal was the dysfunction. So you start to learn how to navigate that dysfunction, especially as a child. And children are really resourceful and resilient. We just find a way. And so it was three of us at this point, me and my two brothers. I'm the middle child. And all this upheaval and dysfunction that we were dealing with, it started with a blanket. So I had a very specific way that I would sleep in the bed, on the very edge of the bed, and tuck a blanket very specifically under me and pin my arms against that blanket to hold it near me so that any time she would rouse us out of bed in the middle of our sleep with that same, get up, let's go, we're moving, I'd pinch that blanket, roll out of the bed and take it with me. So we would sleep four or five, six deep in a bed, not unusual, but I'd be right on the edge of the bed anticipating that, get up, let's go, we're moving, blanket comes with. So I had something I could count on. And having that started getting me to know about anchors,

I guess, right? And having these talisman or these things that you could count on and that were mystical or whatever the blanket was for me, right? And that blanket was with me for years. And I think it's actually why I hold on to certain things because they have more power to me, right? With the longevity that I hold on to them. So my wife always comments on how I take good care of things. And I hold on to things for a while. And she's like, that doesn't even, she said, that shirt is from like 10 years ago, and it's still like pristine. I'm like, yeah, well, these are things that I learned out of necessity from my youth. And then, you know, when my mom

actually, you know, abandoned us, right? So took me and my brother out of school. We're first grade. He's in second grade. Pull us out of school, puts us in the back of the car and says, let's go. We're moving. And we drive for hours into the night from Philadelphia to destination unknown. And she finally pulls the car to a stop, points to a trailer, come with me, have a seat. My brother's eight. I'm six. My little

brother is three. She says, I'll be back. Don't leave the trailer. And the door closes. Eight, six, and three. One day goes by. Two days go by. Three days go by. Four days go by. Five days go by. My mom's not back. I'm getting upset. I start yelling at my brother, do something about this. You're the oldest. My brother's paralyzed with fear. So I go, well, we need to do something. Oh, I have Pop-Pop's phone number. It's in my head.

Grandfather? Yep. Let's go find help. What did you do for those handful of days? We just kind of sat around and entertained ourselves it wasn't really we were looking out the window

we see school buses going by but we weren't really doing anything there was some food in there there was some food some water but it was I mean we didn't know where we were

and that moment where I said we should be in school that's a safe place. Let's get back to school. And so we left the trailer and found help. And I told the woman my grandparents' phone number in Philadelphia and she called them. Looking back, how did you know who to go to? You know, it's so interesting. It was just seeking help.

It wasn't really knowing who. It was just there has to be an adult. So were you open to any adult? Any adult. So you don't remember if you sussed out that person looks safe, that person looks a little dangerous, whatever. No. Any adult. Any adult.

Adults are safe. Yes. Yeah. That's what I figured that it's got to be better than what we're dealing with. Did you think mom left you? Did you think that she was hurt? Did you, where did you? I didn't really have, she had been our norm for so long that she would go and come back.

Well, she's probably fine. She's just busy doing what she does. And we didn't have a sense of what she was doing. She just knew that she was gone. Right. And we knew that, we knew when she had her sensibilities and when she wasn't. Like you could tell the difference, but she was still always loving, right? It was never like she was being in any way abusive in a physical way, right? So it wasn't anything like we were always afraid of she'd

come back. It was never that. My mom was always loving that way, but it was the neglect. And it was the abandonment. And it was those things that really affected us. So if we fast forward, let's say 25 years, okay? You're mid-stride, 30 some years old, right? What was that? How did those early experience complicate your 30s? Because I have a sense of how it amplified, you know, something very, very special and very rare in who you are, but how did it complicate it? Do you have a sense of that? I think that I, you know, at that point I was a single father. I just got out of the Air Force. So I was in the Air Force for 10 years. From 20 to 30. How many languages

do you know? Five. Yeah. Serbian, Croatian, Russian, German, and Czech. Yeah. I could blow your mind. I was Black Jason Bourne. Black Bourne. Yes, I was doing my Black Jason Bourne stuff back then. Working at NSA. I can't really tell you what I was doing, Mike. You know, it's still

redacted and top secret. Is that true? No. Yeah. I kind of – Back then though? Oh, absolutely. I had top secret clearance.

I worked at NSA and worked within the clandestine world and stuff. Yeah. I mean that's what I was doing. We had a coin you got as a gift when you worked at NSA. It was so good. It said on one side, a traditional coin, in God we trust. On the other side, all others we worked at NSA was so good. It said on one side, you know, a traditional coin in God we trust. On the other side, all others we monitor. It was so good. Oh my God, that's scary.

That was epic. Oh my God, that's really scary. Yeah, I know. Especially in modern times. But it was the Cold War. It was, yeah. So it was that. But so that 10 years in the military, I grew up, right? I started to gain my leadership voice, right? Because I was always the person who retreated. I didn't want anyone to ever single me out and start finding out too much about me.

This is like high school years? This is high school in the military too. I wasn't sharing this backstory. What would happen if you – I just felt like someone might use that against me. Someone might ridicule me. Someone might embarrass me. I was still embarrassed by it. By your early childhood. By my early years and what we dealt with, right? And so I felt like when you asked that question, what was something that got in the way or impeded your progress?

Yeah, there it is. There was shame. There was shame still of my background and how I grew up. And it wasn't normal. And so what if someone judges me? What if someone thinks less of me? I already had the difficulty with my self-esteem, right? And my belief in me. And I hadn't really established my full relationship with Miss Lane yet. And we'll talk about her. But it was there, but I had been gone from her for 10 years.

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slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion, just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Grey is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. What story comes to mind when you learned to yourself, for yourself, that the difference, the shame that you were protecting, the shame meaning protecting some part of you, that strategy. Let me say that more clearly. The protection you're using because of how you were different and the shame you felt there.

When did that start to turn? Is there a story that comes to mind when you say, oh, me being different is actually, hey now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Nine, 10 years old, new kid comes into the neighborhood. His name is Norman Lane. He comes up to the playground and he's about my height. So you're back in school. I'm back in school with my grandparents now for three, four years, having some normalcy, having some predictability, having some things we can count on. I'm already starting to thrive in school. I'm a strong reader. My teachers notice that. I'm very diligent because I want praise. So I'm finding ways to get praise. Oh, if someone has good penmanship, people will praise them. I'm going to have good penmanship.

So you were using performance for validation. Absolutely. The classic trap for so many people. Yes. And then you figured it out how to create freedom from that, where many people don't. And I'm going to tell you a story in a little bit about what happened to me recently, where I wasn't able to access some early stuff that I needed to figure out until I reached like an exhausted state. And I'll walk you through there. Right. But I really do want to know how you figured that out. But let's keep going with like the moment when you realize like, whoa, being different is actually, okay, there's something to it. So Norman comes up to the playground.

He's nine. I'm nine. We're about the same height. They want to see who's tough now in our neighborhood. So they say, hey, you two need to fight. So we have this debate, right? Not with Norman. I'm debating the other kids like, why should I fight this kid? I don't even know him, right? So I'm negotiating with my friends about fighting this new kid. And Norman is literally

standing there. It's okay. We can fight. It's okay. We can fight. I'm like, I don't even know you. I'm not fighting you, right? He said, it's okay. We can fight. And then they decide, well, if you two don't fight, we're going to beat you both up. I'm like, what is this? I thought we were cool. So Norman goes, it's okay. We can fight. So I'm like so exasperated at this point. I'm like, fine, let's fight, right?

So we don't really have this amazing pugilistic moment. We fall on the ground. We scuffle a little bit. Everybody walks away, and he says something magical to me that shifts my life. Do you want to come to my house for peanut butter and jelly? That was his peace offering. And I walked down the street from the playground, covered in dirt with Norman, into his home,

and I see this family, this unit. And his mother doesn't even blink, wipes us both off, sits us down, makes peanut butter and jelly. And she talks to me. And that moment was when I met the person who would be my human catalyst. Because the level of care she shared with me, I really paid attention to that. How welcoming, unconditional. She didn't ask any questions like, why are you guys covered in dirt? What was going on? Nothing. Wiped us down, sat us down. Norma said, we're having peanut butter and jelly. Okay. Have a seat. What's your name? Kevin. Have a seat. Now, where do you live over here? Oh, we just moved into the neighborhood and she just started sharing. I'm a school teacher.

You were new or she was new? They were new. They had just moved into the neighborhood. Just moved in. And I imagine for you, that experience was so new that you couldn't help but to visceral standpoint, my senses were so heightened. I was taking in so much, right? Just paying attention to the warmth in the house, the sounds, the energy. I was looking at everything, the dynamic amongst them, his little sister, Melanie, his dad. I was just looking at everything like, whoa, this is different. I've never seen a unit like this, a family like this, because mine has never been this way. So I want to find a way to come back to this. So we finish our meal. And Miss Lane says, you can come over here any day you want. And I didn't say anything. That's all you needed. That's all I needed. That's all I needed. So you were that kid. I was that kid. Every day. Mike,

Mike, I will show you. I've had a key to their house since I was 10. Wait, they just changed the locks after 50 years. Ms. Lane has been passed three years. Mr. Lane is still alive. He's 87, 88. He gave a key to Melanie and said, make sure Kevin gets this. You know he should always have a key. I've had a key to their house since I was 10.

I have that key on my key ring. I can't help but to feel. That place, that was so catalytic, that invitation she gave me and I took that to heart. Years later, Miss Lane and I would sit down and talk about it. She said, you know, all the boys had access to our house, Kevin. You're the one that stuck. I wonder why. When you share this, where does's it living you right now it's so deep in my gut it's not it's way past my heart it's soul soul soul deep like i'm even thinking about you know when norman passed away in a car accident at 26 and i'm in the military and i fly back to support the lanes

i blow my knee out playing in a soccer match dedicated to Norman and Tommy, my other friend who died in the car accident. And I blow my knee out. So I come back on crutches to their funerals. And I see Miss Lane and Mr. Lane. And I come up to them. And they immediately hug me. And I say, Miss Lane, don't worry. I'm going to make you proud. And she said, you really are our son now. And from that point, I etched that in my soul.

I'm going to find a way to make you very proud. And that really just set in motion a relationship with her that we actually filmed it when we talked about, you never were my mom, really. We were just great friends. And we would have real talk. She said, yeah, you were here for us when we were down. We were there for you when you were down. Wow. And the universal.

So when you're sharing this, like, I feel it in my throat. I feel it in my throat. I feel it behind my eyes. Like, but it's, so I didn't live your life, but I'm relating to that universal want and crave to be seen, to be understood, to be cared for. And, but it's, it is deeper than that. There's like this rich connection and I'm not doing any of what I'm feeling service, right? Like the trying to make it universal here. So how do you, because you've thought about this so much, what is the universal experience for all people that you've experienced in a very intense way that you know to be true for everybody? Belonging. Belonging. We all have that innate need to belong somewhere and to feel like we're connected to something. And we had this conversation a lot, Ms. Lane and I. She said, you know, I'm so glad I got to you first because someone else would have got to you. Because you were looking.

Because you were looking because you were looking yeah this is i mean it's a classic oh right yeah i mean this is classic right for and for anybody it doesn't need to be somebody from a rough neighborhood the easy thing is from getting yeah from that to gangs but it's far deeper than that it's just friends it's what it's media yes it's drugs it's like whatever takes away that yearning yes right rather than dealing with it. It sounds like you had the by the experience. I wondered why you didn't reject it. I wanted to ask you during that moment, but why didn't you reject it? Why did you accept and or answer the question, why did you reject the sandwich? So I didn't feel when we were scuffling this anger. It didn't feel like there was anger or anything between us. It felt like roughhousing. It felt like two pups, right? Just kind of playing rough. It wasn't like we were trying to hurt each other,

but we were tangling, but it wasn't in a matter of like, we were trying to hurt each other. So how did it stop? And everybody walked away because they got tired of watching us kind of scuffle when they weren't impressed. No one was impressed, right? They weren't throwing no blows that matter, right? So they just kind of like, whatever, right? And so we just stopped. And so I would really look back to that when you look at animals at play,

that was just rough house play for he and I, right? So I understood and he understood, right? How we were playing. So when you have that understanding innately, right? We're good. So now you have that understanding innately, right, we're good. So now we're walking to the house and we're really just making small talk, not really talking about anything. We're little boys, right? But when we cross that street and we walk through their yard and we come in the back door, I can still see it. And that door opened and they still had the same

furniture, dude. Right. That's one of those houses. Like they keep the classics in the house. Right. So it's now back. It's now back. Right. What was, what's old is new. Right. Retro is like, they were, they were way ahead of their time, but that space was so warm and not from a temperature standpoint, it was the warmth in the house between them and how she welcomed them into the house. Both Mr. Lane and Miss Lane were school teachers in

Philadelphia public schools for 30 plus years. So they're educators. So they had a certain way they were running that house, right? And the environment they were creating. So me rejecting that would have been an unnatural thing for me. It was actually because it felt familiar because school was a sanctuary for me. So going in there, it felt like a familiar place. that we have where we walk deeper into something that's new or we are afraid to walk away. And for the clarity, super healthy to say yes, like it's coming from that place. But there's also plenty of opportunities where there's been something really amazing for me and I haven't been able to go fully into it. So I talk about the razor's edge. And oftentimes I think when people hear, I have to

go a step further because it's easy to hear the razor's edge of intensity and capacity, that it's something physical, heart rates up, it's hard to be in your body. But the razor's edge is really about emotional capacity, emotional limits, including joy. There's a recklessness to deep joy. And I can find myself more than I'd like to holding back, you know, this reckless abandonment to laugh deeply, to really be at the edge of that uncontrollable happiness. And so you were at a razor's edge, but maybe it didn't feel like it. It was just so organic and warm, you warm. And so on that thread, what are the razor's edges for you? The places where you know you're at the edge of your capacity to think, to feel, to do, and it's hard to be in those spaces. Do you have anything that comes up? Maybe it's recently, maybe it's historic, but that you knew that you were at your edge. It happens often to me on stage. You on stage?

Yeah. So because I'm a generous spirit when I'm on stage, right? And so I'm in service of the audience. And so I have to get to that place, right, where you're almost reckless with what you're sharing. But you're right on that razor's edge because you know when you're telling the story or you're sharing, I can't quite go to where I get emotional, but I have to feel the emotion. So you're balancing. And it is not easy because if I see someone responding in the audience and they're crying or they're giving me a knowing nod or they're giving me this affirmation, but I can tell it's not, oh, I'm feeling what you're saying. It's like, oh, I'm feeling.

Oh, you too. Oh, and exactly. Oh, you too. Right? And when people come up after my presentations and I call them whisper conversations where they want to whisper to me what they were feeling or what they heard, or I had a story like yours, or I have a child going through something right now. And I have to receive that, right? And that's not easy, Mike, right? That moment is not easy. You're right on that edge again. Go to the stage part of this though, when you're on stage, how do you do that? Because I'll tell you how I structure when I do talks is that I've got my three points I want to hit.

And I can't, man, I could say 15 thoughts, but no one's going to retain more than three. And it's not going to be deep enough. Right. So I'm always searching for three really crisp points and some stories in science to back it up. And all I do is I have a clarity of how I want to feel at moment zero and the words that I'm going to say at moment zero. And that's it. So everything else is an unfolding. Yes. Totally unpredictable, unknown, you know, and I love that and it keeps me on the edge, but how do you do that? How do you manage that emotional rightness for the edge? So I know when I'm preparing, I learned a long time ago to get out the way. So to your point, right? I want to make sure that when I'm on stage and it's all my preparation. So I have very specific things that I do, my rituals, right? And so it's so funny. I actually had this conversation with Kobe. I interviewed him a few weeks ago.

Name dropper. Yeah, I know. I had to throw that out there, right? I've known him since he was 13. Funny. Yeah, I could tell you that story. It's a funny story. We'll get into that in a minute. But we were talking about rituals, like how you cross the threshold to perform. And so I have my rituals. So I have very specific things. I always wear a hat that represents my grandfather. He always wore a hat.

So I always wear a hat on stage. I may take it off, but it's always on to start. It's a nod to my grandfather, but I also feel protected. Then in my pocket, I always have two pictures, one of Miss Lane and one of my grandmother, my mama. Those are my angels. They're in my pocket. So before I go on stage, I tap my pocket twice, I cross myself, and I tap my hat, and I go on stage. I've crossed my threshold now.

So now I'm in service of all of you. I'm protected. So whatever comes out of me, I'm not worried. They got me. So now when I'm sharing, I'm actually have been gleaning and paying attention to the room well before I even went on stage. I always like to be in the back of the room, come early and watch people come into the room and how they file in, how they talk, how they talk with each other, how they fill the room in, who sat in the back. So when I'm on stage, I can say, hey, someone's over there in the pink. I saw you come in. You kind of glanced at me.

You gave me a little side eye, right? And they're like, right? So I said, so I just want you all to understand, I pay attention to everything. Backstage when you're doing that, are you having chit chat conversations with whomever you're with? Or do you say to, you know, the host or whomever back backstage, hey, let me just kind of watch. Like, how do you create that space for you? So I'll always be either in the back of the room watching or I'll be on the side stage no no no not backstage in the house in that okay in the house right okay but by like say the av desk or whatever right so

i'm watching people file into the room and fill the room they don't many times they don't know right it's me right because it just happens because people are focused on getting their seats that's right so i love watching that but sometimes I'll chat people up as they come in and they sit down and I notice something about them or how come you're in the way corner here. So I'm going to go over like, hey, how you doing? And then they'll kind of look at, oh, you're our speaker. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Don't tell anybody. So where are you from? And what's that doing for you? It's starting to give me my footing, my grounding. It's grounding me in the room. It's giving me a connection to someone. I'm starting to give me my footing, my grounding. It's grounding me in the room. It's giving me a connection to someone. I'm starting to build community. And then I'll tell the people, I said,

so look, I might call you out. I will not bring you up, but I like what you just shared with me. Is that okay? Oh, that'd be fun. Yeah, that's fine. But it's a way for me to already build a bridge with the audience. So connection is vital for you. It's critical. But it's always been from way back. Okay. Well, you were craving it. Belonging and connecting. Because you didn't – the abandonment. Yes.

The recipe for that was true connection, right? Yes. Okay. And the certainty that no matter what I do, at some point you had to get to this place. No matter what I do, I'm okay because I'm connected. Yes. Where early days where I had to do something to see if I mattered. Yes. Okay. That classic trap.

Okay. So you also talked about making the sign of the cross. Spiritual framework? Yes. Christianity? Baptopalean. Baptopalean. Yes.

We were raised Baptist. We went to Baptist every other Sunday. We went to Episcopal church every other Sunday. So my grandmother was Episcopalian? Yes. We were raised Baptist. We went to Baptist every other Sunday. We went to Episcopal Church every other Sunday. So my grandmother was Episcopalian. My grandfather was Baptist. So I always tell people that I can go to church and sit proper and I can go to church and feel the Holy Spirit. Right? So that's the Baptist and the Episcopalian.

So it's called a Baptopalian. It's not a real thing. Yeah. No, come on. Yeah. No, it's not. No. Okay.

That's not true. Okay. Yeah. So absolutely. on. Yeah. No, it's not. No. Yeah. So absolutely. So I was raised that way. So I always say God-fearing, God-respecting, right? I have that level of understanding that I'm not doing it alone. So I've just been raised that way and believe that. So that's an important thing for me just to feel that protection, right?

Are you practicing in a formal traditional way, church on Sundays? No. Or how do you practice your spiritual connection? In my – when I'm still. So I have a typical every day at least some time of being still and being quiet. That comes from my great-grandmother that you should have five minutes each day where you're just still and you're reflective. And so in many ways, it's that yoga practice, if you will, right? It's that mindfulness practice, whatever you want to term that. I've been doing that since I was six. And how do you do it?

So find a space wherever and shut stuff down, right? So it doesn't have to be lights or anything. It's just like, I'm so well-versed in it now. I can just sit, I can, but I can do it in a noisy place. I can just be in my space. And is it a single point focus that you're using to shut down the noise, the internal? I'm not talking about external noise. You're talking about internal noise, right? Do you do like a breathing practice to shut it down? Or what do you focus on? So my wife is really, really amazing with her yoga practice. And so she's taught me things. But my grandfather taught me breathing practices for track because he was a track runner.

So I learned a lot of, we used to have to hold a candle on our chest and practice like our breathing, laying down. And so, oh no, we had to do all this. So I have this breathing practice, right? That just- What's the candle on the chest? so my grandfather would light a candle you'd lay down and you'd have to do your breathing in such a smooth rhythmic way that you wouldn't blow the

candle out okay so yeah okay because so the candle is let's call it four five six inches something like that and you're laying down flat that you would yes If you were using too much, less control, right? If you didn't have enough control, you blow the candle out. Exactly. Classic Kung Fu, but he put you on your back. So yeah, but that's, so through my breathing, I'll do that. That'll actually kind of settle myself down. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So we only get one thing to focus on at a time, right? We can multitask, which is really called cognitive shifting, right? And we know from good science and research and just good old practical application that when you shift between A and B thought or A and B activity, there's a cost to A, efficiency of A. We think that if we multitask, right, that we're going to get more done. But the depth and quality of A is compromised. And then we got to go back to B. Now B is compromised by the time we go back. And it takes so much time of mental resource and brain power to actually do that. We know the science is really clear there. So he was training you at an early age to have deep focus. Okay.

I'm getting now, like, if you will, the substrate of your genius. Okay. Deep compassion, which is that it is evidenced by connection, but it was born out of pain. And in that pain state that you had, you still were available to learn. And so you have this hunger to understand. And then from the compassion ends up look like giving, right? So there's deep hunger where you're giving and you called it humanity, a servant to humanity, right? Okay. Now, God, Kevin, there's so much, you know, I know, but I want to ask it. I want to ask you this question in this way is what are you tired of talking about? And I just want to hit the frames of that because that's what everybody asks you. And I know it's early childhood stuff. We just did that.

But what are the other stories you're tired of talking about? I don't necessarily need to keep talking about like what I did at Nike, right? And that time that I spent at Nike. and that you know that time that I have spent at Nike I think is that where we met did we meet there a little after I left right after I left yeah little after I'd left but I also appreciate that time at Nike like I get that but it was such a I mean I've been going 14 years from Nike yeah 14 years and I've done a lot of projects with Nike since then. But what I think people always want to know, right?

Because it's a brand, right? It's a recognizable brand. But what you just said is really cool. Evidence of your relationships. I left 14 years ago. And then that statement, though, and I've done a lot with them since. Yes. That's a really important statement.

Not everyone leaves on great terms, you know, because the relationships are compromised in some way. Okay. So that's really important. Again, you are relationship based. Yes. And I asked for permission to leave. You did. I sat down with key figures there and had real conversation about it and said, I love it here. Can I ask you to brag for a minute and talk about what you did? Just not the big story, but just the highlights. So I was like an internal consultant there and I got to create my own position. So I was a creative catalyst there.

I mean, what a good name. Yeah, I was an instigator of inspiration, but I also was a bridge builder. But, you know, Mike, I rarely get to tell this part. I was recreating Preston Playground from my childhood there. What do you mean? Preston Playground was this inviting and welcoming and unconditional place to me. And everybody had to play. No one was allowed to be on the sidelines at Preston Playground. You had to figure out a way. Who created that for you?

It was just the rules at our playground. And who created those rules? The elders, if you will. That was the culture. The elders, yeah. So the elders had the idea and the kids went with it. And we're talking about what age? Oh, I learned about this when I was six. When I first got there, you started understanding this is the way we operate here.

They would stop your games. If the older kids saw someone standing and not playing, they would stop your game and say, how come that person's not playing? The older kids would. Yes. Figure it out. Come on. Figure it out. So you had this incredible cultural experience at a young age about full participation, full engagement, and then connectivity on all that good stuff.

And you were recreating that at Nike. Yes. Did you know it at the time or did you need to get away from Nike and go, oh, that's what I was doing? Yes. I think it took me a little bit to get away. I was innately doing it, naturally kind of doing it because I just felt it was the way it should be, right? It's a big playground here, right? Nike is that, right? And so, well, it's like Preston. So we should get everybody together. We should be doing things together. We should find a way. And so that's what I was doing there. And then also learning about the business of sports, changing my vocabulary, right? Getting a whole new lexicon, language and understanding things. It was amazing for me. But learning has always been a thing for me, right? I love learning. But what does learning do? It gives me validation, right? It lifts me up. Right. Yeah. You know, it's, it's a little bit of a cheat for you because you got a big

engine. Yeah. You have a high intellectual capacity. You can handle many difficult, challenging bits of information and you can do something new with them relatively fast. You know, like, so you have a high IQ is what I'm saying. So that's a little bit of a cheat, but you went to your strength is what I'm saying. Yes. Okay. All right. Good. Which was building community and connecting. No, no. I was saying your strength was learning I'm saying. Yes. Okay. All right, good. Which was building community and connecting. No, no. I was saying your strength was learning. Oh, learning. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you went there. Yeah. So again, you found your strengths. And by the way, intelligence is, you had nothing to do with it. It's good that you use it. Mom and dad gave it to you. Oh, absolutely.

Right? And then, but you fostered it by the choices you make and the effort that you apply. But so somehow, God, I love this conversation. Somehow you figured out how to anchor into your biological gift, right? And you didn't screw it up now, right? You doubled down, tripled down on it. Okay. And then connectivity was the application of celebrating other people's genius and their learnings and seeing that. And okay, I want to get to your definition of play in a minute. Cause I think that's really fun or some of the tenants of it. What are you doing

in life? What, why are you here? Like that's big time. Okay. I'm asking about purpose for you. And I'm asking about purpose for humans, but what are you doing? At this point, and it's so interesting, Mike, when I, so I just had my 60th birthday and you know, that's a moment where you pause. Well, I did. Right. And I really just pause, paused and I took stock in all the things that have happened in my journey. And I really tried to look at it from a cumulative state, like what you're saying. So what have I been doing? What does this all look like? And what does it look like beyond this?

And I said, wow, you know, I've been gleaning and learning and gaining all this knowledge to now activate it in a real way with intention and purpose. So I've been gaining all this all this time. Basically, I've been gaining my mastery, if you will, pun intended, so that now I can revel in it. So that anything that comes my way, it's play for me. It's not overwhelming in any way because I can find some tangent that I've been around similar to that. Maybe it's not exactly that, but I've been sampling and made myself available and been gleaning and had a level of curiosity about so much. When you look at all the things I've done, that it's got me to this point now where I can revel.

What does revel mean? And I really say, bring it on. Bring it on. Bring on your challenge, your things. But I have three areas. So you talk about three areas, like three focus areas. So I have three focus areas. I will not deviate from them. Books, anything about education, I'm down with. Meaning that consumption and reading or writing, producing, doesn't matter. Writing, producing, literature, literacy, anything that has to do with elevating the love and importance of books. The ball, right? Play, sports, movement, right? Any of that physicality celebrating regardless of your physical abilities, but we're celebrating that you're alive and you're breathing. There's

movement. Let's celebrate that and find a way, right? And then betterment. How are we bettering others, right? In service of humanity. So those are my three B's. When you say three focuses, I'm always looking at that. So if you approach me with an idea or a possibility or something, I can put it in those filters. If it doesn't fall in there broad enough, if it doesn't fall in there, I'll say, you know what, I'm probably not suited for that by saying no to things. So that clarity, when I looked at my life and at 60 and I said, I know what I'm about and I'm okay saying no to things. And I can say with a level of confidence and conviction because I'm supposed to be, this is my purpose. I'm on purpose for this. And all of these things have led to this. All of these varied experiences and things that no one could have ever dreamt of or explained not easily. I know it's all culminated to this. to give them exactly what they need because I'm paying so clear attention to you because I'm so present is all a culmination of all that work and all that time spent in curiosity, right? And wonder, right? And magic and the pursuit of that. Okay. So fear and fatigue are marauders of potential.

And fear shows up in a lot of ways. It can show up in anger, actually, right? The manifestation of fear often is anger. When anyone's pissed off or agitated or irritated, I know that's right under the surface. They're scared about something. They're fearful or they're hurt. One of those two are usually a root. How are you dealing?

What are you afraid of? 60-year-old man. Not setting up my family's legacy so that they have their examples and things to look to, to aspire to. Have I done enough? Have I shown enough? Have I shared enough? Is it enough for me to be this example? Am I speaking to them enough? Have I captured it in places where they can go back and see the archives of things? So I'm always looking at this legacy, but not just from a story standpoint, but also financially if I help my family. Are they going to be better suited? And I always talk about these adulting, right?

You hear that term, right? Some of that stuff I don't like doing, right? Because that means you're really paying attention to real shit. Like this is real. Like you're not going to be here forever. Things can happen. Are you making sure that you're doing the things appropriately to make sure that the people that you leave behind are straight? Have I shared enough with my son so that he knows how to walk this path? Have I done enough with my stepdaughter, which I call my bonus daughter. I've never called her my stepdaughter, right? Have I shared with her enough, right, that she knows her way. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. So that's another thing. But am I doing enough for my wife that if I were gone, she would be... And I think about that, my mortality, it's a real thing you think about, right?

Yeah. We have a, I think, a very similar challenge, right? A love for people, a want to do right and good and help build, right? At the same time, I often wrestle like, who the hell am I to do something? Like, really? Like, I'm not crowned anything. Like, no one knighted me to say do good in the world, but it's just something from early days. And that also feels good. But so I was posed this question. I want to pose it to you. Are you about change for many or depth with few? And it hurts me to even think this way, right? Because of my calling and yearning and ache to really the loved ones that have been so special in, in the fragility of my life now. Oh my God, like the depth to give to them is ridiculous. And there's also, if you look at how I'm spending my time,

I'm away from home more than I am at home. So what am I really doing? So I shared my struggle with you that I got lots of struggles. I share one of my struggles with you, you know, because I want to hear how you wrestle with that. And you might have some, you might, it might not be a struggle for you, but how do you respond to that? There's a wonderful gift my wife gave me on our wedding day. And she said, I know I have to share you with the world and I'm prepared to do that. And we've been married 15 years now. Congrats. So her level of generosity allows me to go out and do the work. But when I'm home, I'm home. And I have very specific things,

but I have rituals. So Mike, this is once again, rituals are important for me. I have rituals to ensure I'm home. Doesn't matter what time I return from a trip. I am up to take the dogs out to do their business. Doesn't matter if I got in at three in the morning. I'm up when they're up at five, five thirty, six, whatever. I take them out. I don't get in my car for 24 to 48 hours when I return home.

And I walk my neighborhood. And I'm just available for them, my family. What do you need? When my bonus daughter was in school, it didn't matter that I got in at 3 in the morning. I was up to take her to school, right? I was up to get things ready. So what I realized, and I had a great mentor tell me this, he said, all that stuff you're doing out there in the world is not real.

You know what's real? The dog got sick. The fridge went on the fritz. There was flooding down in your basement. He said, that's real. He said, that stuff out there, not real. There was a research project, and I can't remember the exact numbers, but something large, like 80-some percent of all jobs. If there was a catastrophe, end of the world type stuff, 80-some, call it 87.

It seems nice to say that number. Of all jobs now are not needed. We need agriculture. We don't need a high-performance psychologist. I don't know if your job fits in the category, you know, right. Like we need some people to build some shelter, get some food, right. You know, get some heat. Yeah. Anyway. So I think about that as well. It sounds like you don't struggle with it, but I have the same answers. So I've got a routine. I call it routines, not rituals, but I have a routine

that I never walk into my sanctuary with my cell phone on right like i'll finish the business you know it sounds like i'm going to the bathroom i'll finish my conversation in my car or outside and i'll just i gotta i gotta get like right before i come into the sanctuary crossing a threshold yeah right and you learn that from sport yeah right tap in do this the other and threshold thresholds are nice triggers but i also learned it from actually. Yeah. Right? Tap in, do this, that, and the other in threshold. Thresholds are nice triggers. But I also learned it from, actually, I did Shakespeare as a kid. Come on. Yeah.

What age are we talking about? Midsummer Night's Dream, man. Come on. Fifth grade. Did you? Yes. Francis Flute, the bellows mender. I still remember lines from that, dude.

Wow. Yes. Mr. Babin and Mr. Schmidt. Mr. Babin had us do Shakespeare. I was doing Shakespeare. Wait. I also played the cello. I still have two cellos at home.

How do you free yourself? You have freedom. Yes. Yes. How do you free yourself? Whether it's on stage from early days, you know, Shakespeare or cello or conversations, whatever, whatever, whatever. You have freedom, which to me is a mark of mastery of self.

So how have you done that? I really think with curiosity. I really think it was my curiosity for things. I really think that – and it was also Miss Lane with why not. So Miss Lane gave me permission with why not because I would run to her house with my ideas. Miss Lane, they have the school play. Shakespeare, I think. I want to try that. Why not? Because I would run to her house with my ideas. Miss Lane, they have the school play. Shakespeare, I think. I want to try that. Why not? Miss Lane, they have this music program. No one stood by the cello. I think I'm going to try that. Why not? But then she'd follow up with,

I'm going to check to see what you did with that. And she really would. Oh, oh, in a big way. So if I wasn't coming over to their house, she would call to my house. Haven't seen you. What's going on? Going to be stopping by soon? Because she knew if I stopped by, I got a report. I learned that action was the key ingredient to turning ideas into reality from her. Don't talk about it.

Be about it. Lots of talkers and very few doers. Kevin, which one are you? You know, there's actually some research that suggests don't talk about things, right? Don't talk about your goals. Don't talk about your visions. There's other research as well. Good science. You know, there's always counterpoints that, no, no, no. Writing them down helps to actually articulate the idea. It helps to shape the idea and it gives you a chance to develop a plan. So write it down, get it out of your head. Okay. So do you, do you write stuff down though? I write some things down. I write them mentally also too. Yeah. But you know, on my phone, I'm like crazy with my notes app,

like crazy. I like jot stuff down real quick or I'll cut and paste something and put it in a note. And so I have these notes and I can go through and see those again. And those are my quick sparks to remember because I'll get ideas all the time or see something. So I love just dropping them in there. And that's my way of writing them down and then going back and referencing them. But I also, I'm not curating always for me. I'm curating for that person I haven't met yet that might have an insight or a question. And I'm like, oh, you know what? Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. Here. You did it before the mics turned on. You did that with me. I was telling you about something I'm trying to sort out. You go, wait, I got an article for you.

Here it is. Okay. I love it. And so And so, and so once again, I'm doing that on behalf of the person I haven't met yet, or the question that hasn't been raised yet. You didn't keep that article from me. I'm joking. It just happened to be when you brought it up, right? But I knew exactly where it was. And when you brought up, oh, Mike might like this. You do care about people. It's important. It's important. But I also think I'm reflecting what Ms. Lane did for me. So she was holding you accountable to action.

Yes. Was she holding you accountable to standard of action or action? You said you want to maybe do something. Yeah, there was never like the standard expectation you're going to get a this score, you're going to do a this. It was just a follow through. The results will be the results, Kevin. But you need to follow through. And so she never said, you need to get this or this is important or you need to score this.

It was just, are you in it? Are you in the game? If you will. As an adult now, looking back. But from this point forward, what is it that you are aching for in your life? More reach and more impact. Both. Yep. So, so that's the depth and, and yeah, that's the depth and breadth that you're looking for. Okay. Let me flip it. How, how can I help? So, you know, it's interesting, Mike, I, in these kinds of

conversations, I don't have a lot of people I can talk to like this because I, I operate and think on a level I can overwhelm people. I've learned now at 60 that I'm not for everyone, that not everyone can deal with my energy, my enthusiasm, my thirst for, my curiosity. And I travel a lot. So I watch humanity in airports and watch the worst of us. And I watch people and I go, gosh, no. It just worries me that people will have that bitterness or that anger when they're walking through the airport and how they engage with people.

And I just stare and I go, my goodness, like how can I, but I can't solve all the ills of the world, right? I don't have the magic, you know, formula. I'm not a panacea. I can't create all that, right? But I always go, gosh, you know, if I could just help that person with something. And sometimes I always think about just maybe leaving something on someone's chair. I've done that before, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. What do you mean? Drop a little breadcrumb, if you will, a morsel of motivation for someone.

Yeah, that they might not be paying attention and I'll sit it on their suitcase. And maybe it's something that I went to a bookstore and I said, they need the precious present and I'll buy a book and I'll come and I'll quietly sit it on their suitcase and then I'm gone. Sometimes I walk far enough that I can watch to see and then see them actually. So I do this in airports quite a bit or I do random acts of kindness. I'm doing this in airports all the time.

How often do you do that? Every day. Every day. I do – I have to do one. My grandmother started that when I was six. The science is really good there. Is it? Yeah.

The science is really clear that three things happen at least. But it is the neurochemical exchange that you get from the act. Yes. The person gets the act and then the other get from the act. Yes. The person gets the act. And then the other thing is the observer. Ah. Right? It's that third triangle.

That's the one that's the magic, right? Is the person observing it happening and then they spark to go do it for someone without even being told to do it, right? Because they witness it. Yeah. hold to do it, right? Because they witness it. So when you talked about what you can do or how you can help me, see, when you give those little anecdotal science moments, that gives me more fuel because now I can cite some science. So I always say to people, look, I can wax philosophy with the best of them. I can throw out all that philosophy, all that stuff for you guys, right? And I know my audience. Sometimes I have to do that, but once I share enough of it and I get knowing nods, and then I make you reflect back to your childhood in some

way, especially when I talk about play. And I always say, every one of us in this room has a play history and people, I do, don't I? I said, play helped shape you. You know, some of these adults that you're friends with, you were friends with that person in grade school. That personality, that energy. Did you ever think about that? And you can see those quizzical looks like, oh my gosh, right? Cool thought. Yeah, cool insight.

Right? Yeah. And then you sharing a little of the science, right? This helps me, right? Because that's just more the fuel. Or I'll cite like, you should go to Finding Mastery, Dr. Michael G the science, right? This helps me, right? Because that's just more the fuel. Or I'll cite like, you should go to Finding Mastery, Dr. Michael Gervais, right? So I'll do that on stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's good. We like that. I know that. You love that, right? Yeah, it's like, I'm your hype man. I'm your Flava Flav for sure. But just being able to do that and cite that, that lets people know I'm not just spewing rhetoric. And so when you ask, how can you help? This conversation helps me because you're dropping little pearls and gems

of the research shows, the science shows. There's been this, there's a study about, and you said, right, that I'm collecting. So we're having this banter, but Mike, I'm storing. Oh, brother, let me tell you like i'm storing information and i'm taking it and then i'll do a little note to myself when we're done and then i'll go find some of these things that you cited right i'll go to your site first and look see if you've having these things in any of your conversations then i'll go a little deeper but then i have more arrows in my quiver. So when I'm on stage and I get the person with their arms crossed and giving me stink eye or whatever, I'm going to win you over.

Yeah. Okay. Your intensity of joy and happiness and playfulness is the gift that you give people, right? Because you have figured it out. You've mastered playfulness. Okay. If there was one or two or three things that people could do to find more space to play, more internal space to play, what would you say to help them down that path? You know, in order for you to recognize why play matters and why play is important, I always say, look at it personally and professionally. So from a personal standpoint, your relationships. Why is it that when we have a grandchild or a new niece or nephew or our own new child,

we are on that floor rolling and roughhousing and playing because we feel like we have permission. But you always have permission. But that child, that infant gives you permission again. It hearkens you back. It's so magical because you take on their energy, this curiosity, this wonder, their discovery. It's so beautiful to watch. But I always say to adults, but you have that available all the time. So personally, what you're doing is they're giving you permission, but you need to model. You need to model for them. They do what they see. So your routine of not having your phone on when you come in the house, guess what your son is understanding? That's what you do. But if you came in the house with the phone anchored to your ear or doing

stuff, oh, I want to be like that because I want you to approve of me. So the more that adults recognize, why are they always on their phone and how come they're sitting at the table and they're not even talking or texting you? Well, I guess they learned it from someone. So I say that on stage and oh, you see it. The heads go down. They know, right? So personally, I say, don't wait to have a niece, a nephew, a newborn or a grandchild. You always have that permission. You're modeling for someone. Someone is looking up to you and aspiring to be like you. So pay attention to that personally. So play can allow you to live in this state of wonder, of curiosity, and to actually revel in the changes that are going to happen because it's going to happen. Change is going to happen.

So how do you deal with change? You have to have an agility and nimbleness of thought. You have to have that. That plasticity, as they say. Drop that for you, Mike. You like that, right? You like that. I gave and nimbleness of thought. You have to have that. That plasticity, as they say. Drop that for you, Mike. You like that, right? You like that? I gave you a little bit of that.

That was a Dr. Mike right there, bro. Plasticity. Yeah, but that's important. That's good I got you with that one. But that's important. But now, professionally, we're having a brainstorming session. Everybody in the room. People walk in that room with so much fear.

Oh, gosh, please don't call me. Please don't call me. Please don't call me. Because they have no creative confidence. None. Because they don't actively practice that. Play is at the root of that. So let's find an avocation or a hobby or something you enjoy doing that brings you a sense of joy, a game, whatever it might – Fortnite, I don't care, whatever it might be.

Play that, not to a point where it's an obsession, but it keeps you that plasticity, that agility, that nimbleness of thought, that curiosity, that wonder. But now when you go into the workforce and you're going into brainstorming session, it's like, okay, now let me set you up for success versus just saying we're having a brainstorming session. Let's go. Let's go out and get some fresh air for five minutes. Everyone be curious enough to identify something you haven't seen before. Look up, come back in. Someone tell me a story about what you discovered. Sets the room up. But we don't do that enough. We think brainstorming session is enough to announce it. discovered. Sets the room up. But we don't do that enough. We think brainstorming session is enough to announce it. Let's go in the room and make an assumption because your title is this, your title is this, your title is this. No. We have to ensure that

people have creative confidence. So play can be at the root of that. When we talk about culture, right, you have a playful culture with purpose that enhances communication connectivity community belonging permission safety all these things are part of this robust community that will that will be even better at innovating at problem solving at delivering the unexpected golly okay let's say that i know someone that's kind of serious oh i love to say i know somebody i i i love those heathens the ones that are walking away from the from the church of play right i still in creativity those are the ones i want i mean it is it is me like i i'm i'm pretty i know you are yeah so i love play and i don't's why. When you're on your surfboard and I've seen the videos and your heart projects that you do, what project reconnect.

Yes. Right. Right. So these things you're doing, which are sources of play for you and joy. Right. When you're doing those, you are not Dr. Michael Gervais. You're not. When I've seen, you're not that person. You're not that person. No, flat out. You're not. When I've seen, you're not that person, right? No, I'm flat out. You're not. You're Mike, right? And whatever mask your title is, is gone. And you're about that joy. You're about that purpose. You're about that higher purpose, right? Something that you're going to leave better the work is the work to you

but what if you could find a way to blur the lines more often no I am, you're on it I'll tell you something that happened recently to give some evidence it was at the Seahawks with Coach Carroll that man knows how to have fun that man really knows how and he's super intense and thoughtful and on purpose, everything he's doing. And it hit me, look at everybody like running up and down the sidelines to celebrate somebody.

Like, so I was like, oh my gosh, look at what he's done. The whole team jumps up to celebrate for somebody else when it's right. It's not always the case, right? Running down the sidelines. Okay. You're breaking rules because you're not supposed to do that. That's not me really thinking, but that no one else really does that in the league some do you know yes but he is a beacon for creating space and permission for

people to you know wave the towel yes jump pump yes you know high five hug run on whatever and i thought to myself well that's for them you know that's for them. That's, you know, that's for them. That's that stuff they do. Yeah. You know, like I don't have real permission to do that. And early, early days, I'm like, forget that. Like that's a lot of fun. Why not?

One more. Why not? Why not? Back to your point. Why not? But what if you found a way, Mike, to do it where it didn't feel out of body for you? It felt natural. It felt like you. You, but creating, taking the lid off of it, creating like a larger container to celebrate, I needed permission from somebody else. I needed the culture to say it's good. And then once you're faced. But professionally, but isn't that interesting,

Mike, that's in your professional life. Personally, I've seen. Oh yeah. You're not that at all. Yeah. Right. Isn't that interesting, right? that you've got this line of demarcation, right, or whatever, right, that splits the two. And wouldn't it be wonderful if you could actually endeavor to blur the lines more often between your work and your play, right? You're a personal and you're professional. So you could bring a little bit of that in. I think also too the players you're talking to and the individuals who are asking for your guidance and your insight need to know you have that so that you're even more relatable. You're not the person waxing philosophy all the time or being insightful all the time or being reflective all the time. And they see you laugh and things, but they don't see you like fly your freak flag. They don't see you like Coach Carroll flies his freak flag. They don't see you like coach carol flies his freak flag right they don't see you yeah yeah do that that's right right but even if you had a way to

do it where it's you right it's on brand right but it's also like it's you right so i love the the freak flag yeah oh fly the freak flag bro all right you got permission i'm gonna play with that yeah he's giving you permission. Oh, he gives everybody. He gives everyone, right? So you just have to find a way for you to do it because you're already connected to the players. Oh, yeah. You have an amazing connection with them, but it is, to your point, it's a way that you've created this that you don't think, ah, you know, that's them doing that. That's not me doing that. For me, it was a little bit like your story early days when you walked into a home that was a home.

And that's why I asked the question about your attraction, how you went into that, the innocence of six. And so the first time I saw this, I was like, oh, this is good. Right, right. So that, you know, and then I've said to myself often, I'm at my, this is, let's go back 10 years ago. I'm at my best and my worst when I'm the most intense I am. Right. So it's a double edged sword. Sure, sure. And so we can cut through a lot of stuff. Yes.

I'll get, you know, my best and my worst. Okay. Did we talk about all three factors for play? I only have two. Oh, there's only two. Okay, good. I didn and my worst. Okay. Did we talk about all three factors for play? I only have two. Oh, there's only two. Okay, good. I didn't miss one. Okay. Personal and professional, bro. Yeah, those are my two. Yeah. So yeah, that's the whole idea there. Give us some of the tenets of play. Play is? Play is curiosity. Play is wonder. Play is discovery. Play is invention.

Play is empathy. Play is connection. There you go. Play is invitation. Play is the play bow. If you have a pet, especially a dog. But our children do that to us too. When you walk in the home, because they look to you right away and they basically scan you.

Which dad is this? Which mom is this? Should I engage or not? And it's very primal. They can tell who you are when you walk through that door. They know. They have a heightened awareness of you. And when they come and offer, do you want to come see what I've been doing? Not right now. I'm a little busy. Keep doing that and what happens? I'm not going to come and say it to you anymore.

Your dog does the same thing. They know which one is like, who's the fun police, right? When he comes in, ah, that's my man's right it's like here we go here we go right so our dog is a velcro dog to my wife but i'm the poop whisperer in our house right so i'm the one that controls all that like they listen to me and i know dude it's crazy but anyway my wife gave me that that's another one of my one of my titles in the house but the pets understand my energy that way and we have a certain way to listen my wife goes they don't listen to me when i go when i take them outside i said because you don't coach them up

i coach them up and they know that so that's my guy right because he's gonna talk to me we're gonna go out here and i get them all set up like man there's some good smells out here oh yes i do every time I take our pet out. Rebel, Rebel and I have conversations. I'm like, Rebel, there's some good smells. She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, so now, you know, we got to get done fast because it's halftime of the game. So I need you to really work this for me, right?

So I'll carry her out. My wife says, first of all, you carry her out. I'm like, well, you got to get her like prepared. I can't talk to her down there. So literally, these are things that I started to understand. So listen, the play bow, the invitation, are you present enough to see when someone offers it to you? Because there will always be an offer. And the more we recognize that in play, when you go into the workplace, when people greet you. And we are so cavalier about the way we

say hello to each other in the United States. But when you've traveled abroad, oh, when they say hello, they want you to stop and pause and look at them in other countries and acknowledge me and mean it when you ask, oh, do you want to know how I am doing? Let me tell you. I love that I've had a chance to travel and understand that in other cultures, if you ask that, how you doing? Let me tell you. I love that I've had a chance to travel and understand that in other cultures, if you ask that, how you doing? And you keep, well, don't you want to know? But we're so casual and cavalier about that. Why not show up better? Why not recognize that here's a play, bow, an offer to someone. Every time I see you, if I'm too busy, then don't say it. Do you have a philosophy that guides you?

I have a simple truth. My actions may seem small, but their collective impact will be great. Really cool. So I try to do my part every day. Where'd that come from yeah well my grandfather in not so many words right you actually said it and my grandfather would nuance it that way how you do the little things is how you do all things yeah right wow look at you and my grandfather i know you i know you bro my grandfather was that same way but he would do it in this way. Did you make your bed today? He would say that.

Did you make your bed today? Pop up, I did. All right, then. That's a good start. Okay. God. I mean, I know why people love being around you, but I feel like one of the things I get tied about, like internally tied up, is am I doing enough to really celebrate what a special human you are in this case? And have we gotten there? Like, have we gotten to the stuff that you were like, Mike, I can't wait to tell you about this. Cause I'm sure there's some stuff there.

You know what's so funny, Mike? This is this wonderful moment now at this point in my life that this has happened so much. It's not an anomaly to my wife. So I'll say to my wife, you can't make this shit up. Guess what happened today? She says, tell me. Because she knows it's going to be something uncanny for someone else, but very common for me. So let's just say last week, I lost my driver's license. Don't know where I dropped it.

I was on the way to the gym. Can't find it. Retrack my steps. Damn, I got to go to the DMV, get a temporary one. I got travel going on. So I go to the DMV and you know that's a hot ass mess, right?

That's like humanity at its best and worst. Like you're seeing that, oh my gosh, it's best and worst. you're seeing that oh my gosh and worse you're you're being kind no because there's some fun stuff that goes on there's some interesting people that go in there right okay so i go to the dmv i get my temporary thing oh my god i can't believe this i got my passport though so i'm just really upset with myself that i lose my id so the next day i walk my tracks again right right? Like down Sandy Boulevard. I'm like, God, I know to not lose this. Then I just said, I lost it. The next day, my wife sends a text. It's a picture of my ID. She says, guess what came in the mail today. I said, in the mail? She said, yeah, just dropped in the mail slot with the rest of the mail by the mailman. Your driver's license. She said, and that's my husband.

And she said, I'm not surprised it found its way back to you. She said, you put a lot of good out there and someone probably saw it, threw it in the mail, and it came through. Not even an envelope or anything, Mike. It was just in the mail, sitting in the mail. And so it makes me go, okay, I'm on my path. I'm putting good energy out there because it's being reciprocated. How do I continue to make sure I keep doing that? And literally in my notes, Mike, I have at least 20, you can't make this shit up, like series of things, not just one thing, a series of things

from trips that happen over and over and over again. And so I pay attention to that, that my intention is gaining momentum. Really cool. And so I'm really so attentive to that now and not in a way where I'm trying to orchestrate. I'm just present. Okay. So I want to make sure that we do something justice as well, which is you spent time with creative geniuses, Kobe. Who else? Who are some of the other people that have been influential in shaping your understanding of what's possible? Phil Knight. Michael Jordan.

Okay, let's do this. Phil Knight. In a word, in a sentence. He's the person who told me we'd be selfish to keep you here at Nike. You've got bigger work to do. You need to go. Oof.

Because I've had a thought as we're talking, whoever you're around, what an incredible gift to life you give, whether it's a company or a person. And he saw that and said, it's bigger than Nike. You are bigger than Nike. And you need to go. And he said, you're only the third person I told to this point in my career that they should leave. I don't like talent to leave me whoa but we would be selfish to keep you it's like okay what do i do now yeah right it's like what what a cool ladies and gentlemen sexual chocolate mic drop i'm out no i got it yeah i mean he you know he that was one of the people i had a conversation with okay who's the next uh tinker hatfield. At Nike. Yeah, at Nike. An amazing designer.

But Tinker actually identified my gifts before I knew them and invited me to join his band of misfit toys. The individuals were a part of his special projects group because he would go around and identify special energy, special people that he saw. Maybe you don't know yet, but you've got something that can add even more value. You're going to come and spend time with me. Really cool. So he was wonderful Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Come on. So in South Africa, in Cape Town, in Joburg.

And I got to hear the Invictus story before it was even a movie. Come on. He told the story. He told the story of not believing that sport could be the game changer, had the social impact that Nelson Mandela believed. He believed preaching forgiveness was the way it was going to happen. And he so lovingly said, you know, had I known, had I known that all I needed was a ball and a jersey, I could have saved myself thousands of sermons. He told the story, man.

Yes, he did. Oh my God. Because he said he saw Nelson Mandela walk out into that stadium wearing the Springbok jersey, the most recognizable symbol of apartheid, and to hear the people scream his name, Mandela, Mandela. He said, and he witnessed the power of sport to bring a community together, to galvanize others, to have social impact. So to spend time at the feet of him, Paulo Coelho, who wrote The Alchemist, he gave me the understanding of ritual

and the practice of how you share a story. His is pretty funny because he said you never really, the story that you think you're supposed to tell is not the story. It's behind that one. You have to have the confidence to let that one go. Yeah, the shadow stories. Yeah, right?

Yeah, putting spotlights on the dark corners of things and, you know, investigating the shadow part of what it means to be Kevin Carroll or what it means to be whomever. It's a tough journey now, but yeah, it's really cool. Who else? Marcus Swanson. He's a photographer here in town. He taught me how to, to own a business. He said, you can have a business, Kevin, or you can own a business. If you own your business, that means you really get into the things you don't enjoy. And you have to be willing to do that. He said, lots of people have businesses, but not a lot of people own their business. He said, and you have an opportunity, but you have to be willing to get messy with it. Cool. So that was a really good lesson for me from a standpoint of building my business and my brand and understanding that.

And, you know, I mean, my Nana Carol, my mom, you know, Miss Lane, obviously all those people. But, you know, I just think, you know, and I have a lot of millennial mentors. young ones, like this legion all over the world that I've met through their parents or at speaking events or serendipitous way that have helped me understand how to stay connected to what's coming next. And I love that we can be reciprocal with it. I can give them my sage insights and they can share with me, you know, what's happening now. And I really appreciate that. And I think they appreciate that I actively listen to them. I'm not always doling out. They tell me what's going on and what are you feeling? What are you worried about? What are you concerned with? Tell me what's happening. Should I be down with this music? What's going on here? Right? So these are things that allow me to be relatable when I do speak to those groups. You know, I want to know so much about how you see the world, but I think that I want to just put a pause in it and say, what are you learning about the next generation? And what Their curiosity is amazing, right? And they also understand they

don't know everything. It's really started, they're really starting to get this epiphany, like we're not all knowing because we can search it. So they're starting to seek people to share information with them, but they got to vet you. You can't come at me with this like, you know, what you don't know back in my day thing, right? There has to be a level of respect and you have to be willing to listen to them. And what I've been discovering more and more, Mike, is they're seeking it. They're skipping over a generation that's right before them and coming to us. Because you all been through some stuff. And I know I'm going to go through some stuff. So I need to know how to navigate that. I want to get out in front of that and look at all the things they're dealing with. Anxiety, depression, stress, right? I mean, because they are overwhelmed.

But they realize there's a generation that had to deal with difficult. And it's my generation. And they're coming to us. But you got to meet them in the right energy, right? And I think that's what I'm really excited about is seeing this, right? I'm seeing it more and more and more, but I also see it through their parents, that their parents know they don't have the answers for them and they are seeking on their behalf. I think that's wonderful that parents are, I'm speaking at events and parents go, I wish my son or daughter was here to hear you. I said, well, you know, I Skype. I Google Hangout.

There's a barrier to entry. Are you willing to take that back to them? Yes. Okay, well, here. Write down a little thing. They have to search this. They have to look for this. They have to have questions prepared.

They do all that. Tell them to reach out to me. Not you. They need to reach out to me. And I've had lots of them do it. So I think what they're going to get right is they're going to problem solve things that we have no idea are coming because they're growing up with it. So they're going to be so much more anticipatory of what's going to be going on. I love that about them, right? They're plugged in and they're aware, but they're also out looking, you know, around the corner at things because it's the way that they've been educated and

they're growing into. So I'm thrilled that there's a lot of genius coming. But I also like that, you know, we have an opportunity to elevate them and celebrate them and let them know you all have something to offer. Because I think that's one of the things they see all this instant success or whatever people are putting out there in social and they believe to be truth. And they don't think anyone else struggles and I'm the one with all the struggles. And so they're heaping heavy on themselves and I'm not this or I'm not that. And we got to get through that and debunk that and that you do have something to offer. And I think, you know, that's why we're having a lot of the problems we're having, right? With kids acting out, right?

And feeling inadequate or feeling like you're sliding me, right? You're giving me side eye. I'll get you. You know what one of the number one challenges at universities right now is? How to make friends. Yes. Isn't that bizarre? Like just, you know, anxiety, depression off the chart.

Suicide is a real thing that's happening at a higher rate than it has been. And what they're calling for is friends. Yeah. The social skills. Because they've been, you know, they've had their neck at 45 degrees making friends that way as opposed to, you know, upright. And realizing that I can't get around this. I have to be able to do this. This is not going away.

Yeah, that's right. You can't automate this, right? You can't in any way mechanically or instrumentize this. It has to happen. So social skills are really at a premium now. And so a lot of the universities are really addressing that. I'm so glad they're paying attention to it because they are. They're worried, right, that they're going to have a really bad situation socially on the campuses.

How do you finish this thought? It all comes down to? You want to. Pressure comes from mystical falsehoods right i think that you make that up you create that yourself the fork in the road was do i stay in the trailer or do I decide to go find help? You're a gift. You know, I appreciate you, Mike.

Yeah, you are a gift. You know what's up. You know what's up. Oh, God. Okay, last big banger. Two questions, though. Part one is it, how do you articulate or define mastery? You know, when I think about mastery, I think about the beginner's mindset. I just love that idea of always being that beginner's mind. There's something new to learn every day. And so tabula rasa, I think that's how you get to mastery is recognizing that I only know what I don't know and I'm open to learning.

And that beginner's mindset is that there's something new to learn every day. And so I'm going after that. I'm seeking that. And so that's the way I look at mastery is sustaining that beginner's mindset. And is there a practice to help support that or to enhance that? Absolutely. Looking up. I look up every – so I have one day of the week that I spend more time looking up than looking down at a small screen. And I look at the big screen called life, I like to say, right?

And I always marvel at everything's in HD and 3D. Wow. Who knew? So, right? So, yeah, looking up. Curiosity. Curiosity. That's really my practice that I use is just remain curious and there's always something to discover. question. First, who comes to mind for you? You got one shot to ask one question. Who are you

curious to ask the question to? And then part B of that is, what's the question? It would actually be someone from back in the day. Oh my gosh. Have you seen that Quincy documentary? Oh, so that, yes, Quincy. Quincy Jones. Yes. And I would ask him, how do you get your creative spark? I marveled at that documentary. Oh, my gosh. That like when you start stringing together all the things he's amazing.

Oh, do you remember the title for folks listening? Quincy. It's just called Quincy. Yeah you remember the title for folks listening? Quincy. It's just called Quincy. It's on Netflix. It was outrageous. It's on Netflix. It's one of the most amazing documentaries because you have no idea all the things he's been involved in.

But I want to go back to that. Where do you get that creative spark from? Because you've done so much. How do you keep getting that over and over again? How are you excited about the work? Because you've done so much. How do you keep getting that over and over again? How are you excited about the work? Because you've accomplished so much. Is that part what you're trying to solve for humanity? Is the creative spark like being a custodian of the value of creativity? Yeah, I think that's a fair thing to say that i am that custodian for

creativity and the creative spark i am that caretaker for it i am that person who's ensuring that it is available and people are aware of its availability and so in any of those random acts of kindness and any of those little um wonder moments and any of those where I bump you a little bit with something, right, where I leave a morsel of motivation, I want to just see you light up. And I know they've done brain studies on that, right, where the brain activates, right, when it's stimulated that way, right, it's sparked. And it does do that. So I want to be that, right, in a human form, right? I want to be able to spark you and provide for you so that's why i'm actively always collecting and curating on behalf of others not for myself

yeah to your point i get joy out of that i get my own kind of satisfaction from that but ultimately i know i'm in service of others because people are in service for me. For so long. For so long, Mike. And so this is my, you know, this is my way of paying back, right? What is that Muhammad Ali saying? The debt, the rent you pay. I'm paraphrasing it. I actually don't know it. But something about the rent you pay in life is, you know, like the gratitude that you give back or whatever, right? So for the time that you're here on earth, you should, you pay it back through gratitude and acts, right? Of grace for

others, basically is what he's saying. That's the, for the time that you get to spend on earth, that's what you have to pay back. And I just believe that's what I'm supposed to be doing because so many people did it for me. So many, and I don't forget them. And I'm always, you know, I think about in many ways the last, the least, the left behind, the left out, and the forgotten. I think about them a lot. So I'm always looking at the back of the house people at hotels and event centers. I'm always talking to people who are doing catering, food service, the custodians, right? I'm always talking to them in the airports. Always.

They have stories too. They're more than just that. And we walk past those people, right? And we're so transactional with them. And so I'm always trying to be transformational. I don't want to be transactional. I want to do something with you. Okay. No, I'm just saying. Oh, we want to do something? Like do something, something? Like something. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like, come on. with you okay no i'm just saying oh we want to do something like do something something like yeah absolutely yeah like come on we could we we can do a creative collabo we can definitely do

that maybe this is what's going to be the outcome of this where can people find you so you can find me kevincarrollcatalyst.com catalyst with the k k-A-T-A-L-Y-S-T. Kevin Carroll. Two R's and two L's. Don't forget those two R's and two L's. People do it all the time. That is incorrect. Do not go to KevinCarroll.com.

That is not me. And you will see it very quickly. He is not of the same hue as me. That's all I got to say. Right? That's classic. So it's all good. Yeah, that's where you find me.

And my Twitter handle and social is KC Catalyst. Brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you again for time. Thank you again for the care. Thank you again for taking up space in my life that has been there for, I don't know how many years. I know. We're like, I want to say seven, eight years, maybe more. More than.

Oh, please. Right? Is it more than? Yeah. It's more than that. Was it 2008 when we started? No, it was before that. Was More than... Oh, please. Right? Is it more than... Yeah, it was like... It's more than that. Was it 2008 when we started? No, it was before that.

Was it when we were doing the win forever? Yeah, I think it was before that. Yeah. Well, that was the beginnings, but I think it was before 2008. It's been a minute. It's been a while.

Yeah, so let's call it 10 years. Yes. Again, what was the Twitter and social? It's kevincarrollcatalyst.com and my social is kccatalyst, at kccatalyst. So, catalyst with is KCCatalyst, at KCCatalyst. So, Catalyst with a K.

Brilliant. Okay, so if you're listening, thank you. Thank you for being part of the tribe, the community. Celebrate Kevin, what he's doing. If you are driving a community of vibrance and creativity and want to make game-changing

moves in your business, bring Kevin out. Is that fair? Yes. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. It's a gator of inspiration. I have no problem coming and stirring up some trouble and then leaving. Yes. That's my, that's my MO, right? Catalyzing them out. You will not be disappointed if you bring you out. I promise that. Oh, absolutely. Yes. So celebrate Kevin by doing that. And then, you know, at the same time, find them online, that. And then, you know, at the same time, find them online, ask them the questions, you know, give them some, some juice to wrestle with there. So again, thank you for being a friend. Thank you for taking up space inside of me.

And thank you for celebrating your genius today. My pleasure, my man, you know, I got you. It's all good. Peace and joy. Godspeed. I appreciate you, Mike. You know the deal. Let's go. Done and done. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button

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