Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Kevin Harlan, Sports Play By Play Announcer

Episode Date: February 27, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Kevin Harlan, a well renowned sports television and radio broadcaster.If you’ve watched just about any sporting event over the last few years, you’re familiar with Kevin’s voice.This is his 34th consecutive season broadcasting the NFL and his 31st season broadcasting the NBA, currently as a play-by-play announcer for the NBA on TNT.Kevin is in his ninth season as the full-time voice of Monday Night Football on Westwood One and recently called his ninth straight Super Bowl for the network.He also currently calls play-by-play for CBS Sports’ coverage of the NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament.Kevin is one of the best in his field yet he’s no stranger to criticism.As someone who works in a very public line of work, he’s constantly hearing it from fans and his peers.We discuss how he manages that criticism – the delicate balance between being open to feedback and caring too much what others think.What stood out to me in this conversation is Kevin’s ability to separate who he is from what he does.Kevin started broadcasting at the age of 14.Typically someone who’s been at it for that long can find it hard to identify as anything other than that “thing” they’ve tied their life’s efforts to._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Before every broadcast radio or TV playoff games, super bowl or mid season game, uh, in my headset, I say out loud the names of every kid on that roster, because I want to make sure that for a nth time that I have said it, I have said it the way it should be said, and I have just said it, so it's resonating and rolling around in my brain, because that seems to be a real hot button with people. Something as basic as your name. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais,

and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn, to learn from people who have committed their life to the arc of mastery. And in the conversation, we want to better understand what they're searching for, what they ache for, what they're hungry for, what they're working to understand. And then we also want to dig to understand their psychological framework, which is how they make sense of themselves and the world and explain events. And we also want to understand the mental skills that they have used to build and refine their craft. environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships,

it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction.

In other words, it's not about more outreach, it's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way

that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip

cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Kevin Harlan. And if you've watched sport on TV, you've definitely heard his voice. He is a renowned sports television and radio broadcaster, and this is his 34th consecutive season broadcasting the NFL and his 31st season

broadcasting the NBA. I mean, that's a long arc. It's beautiful. This conversation is rich and there's so much inside it. He's in the trenches right now doing his craft. And at the same time, he has the ability to explain how he works. It really is remarkable how clear he is. And so I'm excited to share those insights with you. So while Kevin is one of the best in his field, he's also no stranger to criticism. As someone who works in a very public line of work, he's constantly hearing it from his fans and peers. And we discuss how he manages that criticism, that delicate balance between being open to feedback and caring too much about what others think.

And what stood out for me in this conversation is Kevin's ability to separate who he is from what he does. And Kevin started broadcasting at the age of 14. And typically someone who's been at it for that long finds it really hard to identify as anything other than the thing that they've done most of their life. And he's been able to do just that. Decouple who he is from what he does. And there's incredible freedom that will jump out at this conversation. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Kevin Harlan.

Kevin, how are you? Mike, I'm doing great. Thanks for the conversation. A chance to be on with you and visit with you. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so this will be the first time that I've had somebody in your craft on Finding Mastery. And I don't know where this is going to go.

You know, you are an absolute world leader in what you've done. And to be able to allow yourself to be completely absorbed in the present moment is a craft and a skill that I've been fascinated with my whole life. So thank you for the time and our ability to go deep into a conversation about you and celebrate your insights and the path that's led you here. And so I just want to thank you in advance. I'm really excited to be able to learn from you. Maybe we could start with some easy stuff like where'd you grow up? What was it like growing up? Just to paint the picture a little bit. Okay. I grew up in Green Bay, Wisconsin. And my dad was in professional sports. He was with the Green Bay Packers for 37 years.

And before that, he was with the St. Louis Cardinals, the baseball team. But I was so young, although I remember many moments of those years, my real memories begin when we get to Green Bay. So I was about 10. And he worked for the Packers and worked his way up to become president and CEO. And now he's chairman emeritus of the Green Bay Packers. And so my youth was spent being around practice fields and football offices and locker rooms and football games and press boxes, even more importantly, press boxes, kind of got a look inside a world that most kids that age don't, which I think helped fueled where I eventually went in the path I took. So by virtue of his job and seeing the vigor that he took to his job every morning was a pretty impactful thing for me. I went to an all-boys Catholic school.

Our high school had a radio station. I tried out one day for the football broadcaster's job, got age, the early time in my career when I was 13, 14, 15 years old, his guidance was huge. And not just in broadcasting, but certainly he had a very big impact on me. And when you look back, when you were, let's say, between the ages of 10 and 15, in that range, and you thought about your dad, obviously instrumental in the career path and the man that you've become. What did you think your dad was good at or fascinated by? The best attribute that he has, and certainly displayed as I was a growing boy was his love for what he did, the charisma that he carried out his job with, the way that he treated people, and his attention to making sure that all components of an issue or his day were filled.

I always, I cannot tell you, even now in my mid-50s, he's been out of pro football since 2007, 2008 on an everyday basis. But how many people will come up to me and say, hey, I used to work for your dad, or I ran into your dad, or I had this experience with your dad at a Super Bowl. And they don't talk necessarily about what he accomplished, which has been so incredible. But what they talk about is how kind he was, how thoughtful he was, would talk the same way to a fellow owner or to someone that would deliver the mail every day to his desk in the Packer offices.

He treated everyone the same, loved to laugh. And amongst all those memories, that collage of thoughts about the kind of person he was, I think that carried him maybe even further than really what he was built to do. Des Moines, Iowa. And he dreamt as a little kid of covering the Kentucky Derby and the Masters and World Series and Super Bowls and big college football games. That's what he dreamt of doing and then writing for the Des Moines Register. But as many of our careers, you know, carry on different exit ramps are there. And he took one that got him into professional football and then administration and then running an organization. But throughout all those steps, I think he loved every part of it. Like he didn't wake up in the morning and dread going to work.

He didn't complain about work. He never, I never heard him ever complain about, about, uh, I mean, there may be tricky situations that required some diligence, about, uh, I mean, there may be tricky situations that required some, some diligence and some, uh, uh, some, some, uh, crafty maneuvering, but he never, uh, said, oh, I don't want to go to work today or, oh my God, the hours are just building up or, oh, this or that never, never, ever any of that. And that, that was a pretty good compass to follow as a young guy. That was a pretty good lesson to learn early on. Find something you enjoy.

And even as roadblocks and speed bumps occur, as they inevitably will, you'll still navigate those with a smile on your face and a direction in your heart and enjoyment to the whole process. Okay. So people and passion, right? Like if we distill it down, like he really loved people and he organized his life and passed that on to you about passion and, you know, to live with passion. And, you know, that, that word can feel, I don't know, over or underdone in so many ways, but like, it sounds like he really had a vigor for life and he, you know, loved what he did and was figuring out and that got passed through to you. And it also sounds like having an early vision, which, um, you know, that, that can be a really tricky deal, you know, cause if I'm sure you've seen this, maybe you felt this in your own life. I don't know.

But athletes and performers who chip in early, right? And they're like, OK, I am an athlete or I want to be whatever, fill in the blanks, a broadcaster at age 14, that we miss a lot of other things in life, right? Because we're long and narrow on the one craft or the one path. So can you riff off of that idea, like having an early vision? The benefit is obvious. You get more reps in. That's the benefit. What has been the cost for you to have an early vision?

And you might say none or anything in between, but what is the dark side of the shadow side of that for you? Well, I'll concentrate first of all on the positive. And I think you've you've hit on it, because the more reps you get earlier age, it becomes a part of what you're about your DNA, the way you're, you think and how you process things. And it's almost like every year as a young kid that you spend broadcasting, shooting baskets on the practice range with the driver or a golf club or any of those kind of skill related things. It just always seems to propel that person further, faster, higher. And I think that was definitely a part of what helped me early on. There was some early success, some great words

of affirmation from him and others, the priests and nuns that I was taught by in high school. And that fuels it. So it's nice to get some fuel along the way when you're so young because you are so fragile and tender and new to the process that you really don't know, am I even really good at this? You know, I know I practice piano for four hours a day, but am I any, I mean, is there a direction here? Is there like a ceiling or is there an unlimited ceiling? And I always kind of got the

feedback, which was incredibly empowering. It was kind of an unlimited ceiling. I think this is really important. I want to know like a couple things that you remember people said to you that really shifted you. And I also, I also like, you know, just last year, or was it two years ago, like you're the national sportscaster of the year so like you reached that pinnacle and you know the thought of do i have what it takes am i going to be exposed as a phony like am i over my skis yes i am over my skis oh my god am i going to blow it and your thing is live like it's taped eventually right but like your voice and your perspective on what's happening is memorialized forever and so there's i want to i want to know your preparation to get to those moments where you can let go and call but before we get there like those other two variants

which is what did people feed into you? And I don't want to forget the dark side here, but what did people feed into? Yeah. And then, um, you know, how did you deal with that? Am I any good at this? Well, it's kind of like a performer, um, and someone at an early age that is starting an instrument or singing. And I don't know how you could continue because it is so public. It is so out there. It's not like you're buried in an office or writing things that no one can ever see because you can rip it up and throw it away. So, I mean, like everything you do is so public. And I think when it is so public, if you don't have some hand in hand, patting on the back affirmation, I think you could get derailed pretty quickly because,

you know, it's hard enough just growing up as a normal kid through those very, you know, turbulent teen years where you're worried about what he thinks or what she thinks, or am I this part of this group or not a part of this group, and all the social things that go on. So as you're going through that process on this side, on this other side, where you're trying to really follow a passion, it is empowering to get from someone in your family or someone outside your family. Both, I think, resonate pretty clearly. Hey, you've really got a future in this, or I love how your voice sounds, or I love how excited you get, or I think you've

really got an act for this, and I think you've really got something going here. I mean, along the way, you need to have some kind of, I think, because you're filled with so much self-doubt, so many questions about what you're going to become, where life is going to take you. Are you popular? Are you not popular? Just, you know, the basic things that teenagers go through. something that is a passion that is so public that can't be hidden and is exposed like that is like doubly impactful because now you become the guy that, yeah, he's a good guy, but boy, you should hear him do these games. He's 17, 16, 15 years old. And he gets, you know, he really has it. I mean, this is,, this is something really, and it got to the point where then I was hired outside of doing games for our school by other commercial radio stations. So it just, it kind of builds on one another. The downsides to me are minimal. Actually,

I can think of very few downsides. Now, did I miss a date maybe in high school or college? Did I miss a party? Was there not a part of maybe a group gathering, going out, doing something? Oh, yeah, all the time. But if I were doing that high school game in the middle of Kansas on a Friday night when I was in college, broadcasting a high school game, did I think, yeah, but those guys are having fun, but I'm glad I'm here doing this because I know that this is what I love to do. And if it were the other way around, if I were with the guys and not doing a game, I'd feel like I missed a rep. I missed, I missed doing something that, you know, I, you know, every, every rep is huge and it does build upon each other.

So what you're saying is like almost textbook, right? From the discipline of expertise, right? Studying the best of the best. It's almost textbook, right? Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, it's, so, okay. So, so that being said, textbooks are good, but there's also the real life stuff in there. And so I want to, I want to go one level underneath of it, which is, um, by the way, like how, how fortunate are you to know early and to have that sense that, you know, I love what I do. This is fascinating. And I want to get into like, are you trying to figure out something, unlock something? Are you trying to be liked by others? And that's the, that's the stitch I want to get to here is that people told you, you got a great voice. You got a real future

in this kid. Stay with it. Man, you are smart. You really have a great way of grabbing people's attention. Fill in the blanks. So it's a lot of external validation. And at a young age, external validation can start to shape motivation in life, meaning that we can start to crave recognition from others as opposed to the true artistic expression of craft. And there's no way that you don't know what I'm talking about, right? Like, of course you know that, right? And you've lived it. And I don't know if you've moved through it or still stuck in it. But can you talk about that too? Because i feel like that's a big deal that people really do get stuck in and i remember as a young person it was the thing for me it was the

reason that i couldn't do what i wanted to do as a young athlete is because i was overburdened and over consumed with what if and the what ifs were really about what would people think, you know, if I screwed it up and sure enough, that was all I needed to screw it up. And so, um, I, you and I had very different, uh, stages. My early days had lots of pain around the thing that I loved. And the pain was that I wasn't able to do it properly when it mattered. And hence I went and studied it ridiculously. So, and you know, you, so I love where you've taken your craft. And I also want to know about just that one little piece. And there's a long winded way of me, and part of it's just me, you and I connecting on something,

but how did other people's favor of your craft hurt and or help? I know how it helped, but hurt in any ways. The only thing, I think at a very early age, and because it is such a subjective thing, it's like music or it's like a movie or it's like a picture, because it's kind of a craft art, it's a skill. And you're presenting and you're performing in a certain sense. I always tell my kids, as I always told my wife, if you put 10 people in a room, four will like you, four won't like you, and two don't care. And I kind of have always used criticism as a way.

There's always a vein of truth, I think, in every critical comment. I think there's always, now it may be overblown by the comment and the way it was delivered, but inside those criticisms are always ways to get better or to think about it, at the very least, think about it. And it's a business where it's not like a coach, like a Pete Carroll, who can say, when you run this route, you've got to cut at seven yards, not at six yards. And you've got to end up a yard and a half away from the sideline and not on the sideline hash mark. You know, it's different because you're not being coached. You're kind of like your own advocate. You're like your own coach. So when the negative comments come, and they invariably will,

you can either get down and defeated and beaten up. And it doesn't matter if you're 57 or 17. A critical comment always stings you in some way. But what I've tried to do is because I've been doing it for so long and you hear it, you just know that it's inherent in the job. If you do get a critical comment, you, I turn it into, okay, let's, it's kind of like this, this, this coach that, that I don't know, this nameless faceless coach who has thrown this my way i've read it i've heard it or whatever and say is there something there is there something there i need to consider and and then you kind of go back in the laboratory and you start to think about okay am i too excited am i not excited

enough am i talking too fast am i not talking fast enough do i keep up with the play don't i keep up with the play should i let the the crowd serve as a symphony and bank of my broadcast more to build up the ambience and the presence of that moment? Do I have to have more of an exciting voice or less of an excitement? Just all these things that you go through as a young person in this business, they shape me. So even to this day, if I read a criticism or if I hear something critical, I never take it personal. I never take it personal. It's about – it's not about me.

It's about my style. And is there something in there, checks and balances that I can use to my advantage? Some people internalize it and fret over it and get down by it. I don't. I consider it a – well, you know what? They're probably right i was too excited on that play or i didn't get excited enough or i should have let it breathe more or i should have let it just drop back and let the pictures speak for themselves whatever it was

so i look i look at criticism that way i i i uh does every mean comment hurt well i mean i mean yeah i'm human but i't, I don't internalize it. And I really just kind of, I see it. I go, why would they see that? And then I go back and think, okay, was there something to what they said? And sometimes there is. And sometimes there isn't. They're just a fan of a team that lost and they're mad at everybody, including you, because

you broadcast that game. So when those comments came, and they do, from the moment you put on a headset in a very public, like going back to what I said before, it just kind of comes with the territory. But if you can handle it the right way, it doesn't become a burden. And at the same time, the plaudits, the applause,

the congratulations, the hey, way to go, kid, or what, nice broadcaster, kid, or what nice broadcaster. You can't dwell on those either. You say, OK, it's almost like the highs are never high and they don't really come with the low of the lows. I have very few lows and I try to keep it pretty much even keel the whole time. So I never get too caught up in the applause. But if I do read a comment, hear a comment that is negative, I figure out, okay, is there something there that I'm missing? And I'll go back and listen and figure it out and take my notes as I always do and break

it down and say, I don't agree with him, but I'm glad he brought it to my attention. It's something because there's constant, it's in everybody's job, yours, mine, Pete Carroll's, Russell Wilson's, everybody. It's, it's all about, it's all about kind of continually evolving and getting better. And sometimes you need those outside comments to get better, to advance, to evolve. And if you're not evolving, as John Madden famously says, you're not getting better, you're getting worse. And it's so true. If you're not evolving and trying to better what you do, because it's a lifetime of getting better, then you've lost that, whatever that ignition is, and your love and your desire and that spirit,

which carries you to where you are. If that ever goes away, people always say, if I ever lose the desire, I know it's time to quit. I feel just the opposite. I'm 57. I hope I've got another good 15 years in me, God willing. And I hope that I'm able to take the comments that I get now, good and bad, and parlay them into becoming better myself at the same time, knowing that I've got to be my own advocate. I've got to be my own coach, so to speak. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function,

and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present?

And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest.

When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion.

Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASixgray.com for 20 off okay so i would have thought before this conversation that your crown jewel was going to be your voice and you got a great voice obviously you know and that was the thing that was so special and it could almost

because of your voice and your natural knack for understanding sport being around it so early that those two things in combination were going to be what set you apart but you know you got me now really understanding it's that you have decoupled what you do from who you are and that is rare for people that have chipped in early. Interesting. I didn't know that. The reason I'm saying that, Kevin, is because you've pulled apart that I am not what I do. My craft is how I call a game. And it sounds like there's at least four levers, right?

Which is speed, tone, there's tempo. It sounds like there's using the ambience of the crowd. So like some sort of inclusion of noise and excitement. And you've got the levers well understood. Yet, you are also your best coach. And that nameless, faceless coach is basically your self-talk, right? And you don't pile on. You're an advocate for the craft. Your self-coach is not saying, hey, Kevin, you're okay. Kevin, you got this. Hey, Kevin, you're special. People love you. You're not like this nauseatingly, you know, rah-rah coach. You're like, wait, hold on now. Someone said that you're speaking too fast. You're blown and I can't stand hearing your voice.

And you say, okay, well, that's not me. But what's this person talking about? How do you do that? Because that is special. That framework that you have, one that you've decoupled who you are from what you do, and the fact that you're able to be an advocate for the craft and not rip yourself apart or overly cheerlead yourself like how have you who taught you that how have you developed it you know how do you pass that on to the next generation well i my dad didn't teach me that because i don't think i don't know if my dad had many bad days

sure he did he just never brought it home i mean dad's like, he's a legend, you know, in the football and you know, like he's a legend. So he's had bad days of course. Yeah. It's like, it was amazing to live under the roof of a guy that was so respected and that taught, I'm sure just things that I don't even realize that I do that, that are a part of what he did that I just automatically by osmosis was blessed enough to, to be around someone like that and in that kind of family.

But I would say that in football, when you lose a game, it's back to the drawing board for the coaches and the team Monday morning to figure out why that Sunday game did not work out as you planned, as you poured your heart and soul and hour upon hour of preparation into that game, why it didn't work. And you go back to the drawing board on Monday, and Nick Saban, who I can't say that I've read a lot of books about,

but you get this, and Belichick in New England, they're, they're, they're, they're so process driven that I'm, I think they really say, embrace what has happened, figure out why it happened, but propel that forward to be at a better self and better team and better effort the next time around. And that's all part of this quote-unquote process that they go through. It's a process for a freshman quarterback to get ramped up to play Southeastern Conference football and to play under Saban and the meticulous designs that he has and the habits and the routines and the things that make great players greater and coaches that have a slew of players that come and go off that

roster every year, but they're always great. And why are they great? Because they believe in a process. They believe in a routine. They never get down because of a loss. They only say this will only help us. It may be a step back, but it's going to be three steps forward because we've learned what not to do. We've learned how to handle this particular issue. So I guess I've learned more about how I should handle things in broadcasting by watching what they have done. Process-driven is that they've all got this attention to detail. Did they do the things that made them perform well? Or did they miss a couple of steps along the way that you can point to and say, we should have worked on the fake punt more. We should have worked on the quarterback sneak more. We should have worked on our goal line defense more. And so there's an added emphasis to it.

And I think the same thing is true in broadcasting. Should I try to capture more of individual stories in the broadcast? Should I worry less about individual stories? Should I worry about just being the consummate reporter and making sure that I've got everything dotted and crossed as opposed to engaging my analyst more? Should I or should I engage my analyst more? I mean, it's a constant kind of push and tug and feel and movement that kind of guides you along the way.

And at the end of the day, what you feel is a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a tweak here, a turn here. And it's just fine tuning. It's like if you've got a piano or a violin that is used a lot, it needs fine tuning. It needs to have that guy come in and listen to the sound and figure out, okay, it's a little bit off because you've used this particular key so much. And so I kind of equate it to that. It's just like in everything in life, you just need to fine tune. And when I talk to kids about the business and about what they need to do, I always say it's a nonstop class and process that really never ends.

It's not like there is a destination. It's the journey along this road that you're on, which will have great, you know, great miles and they'll have rough miles and you'll have, you know, beautiful scenics and you'll have storm clouds. But it's along that journey that you become what you're going to become. So handling these different things and knowing that it's not a period, it's a comma. It's only a comma. That if you have a bad broadcast, it's only a comma. It's not a period. It doesn't define you. You've had a bad day. But the process takes you to the next game and hopefully tool is a lifelong thing, too. It's not learned when you're 17 or when you're 27 or 37. It kind of emboldens itself as you go along. And I would say in my mid-50s, it's stronger than it was when I was in my mid-40s, as it was when I was in my mid forties, as it was when I was in my mid thirties. And so, um, I, I just,

I just don't get caught up in, in some of those negatives and some of those disappointments. And there are disappointments. There's never a perfect broadcast for my business. There's never a perfect broadcast, only a learning experience, which hopefully propels you to something better the next time you take the air. You know, I got a little stomach thing happening where I've got these butterflies right now because I want to ask you a question. I didn't think I wanted to ask you this question. And maybe I wrestled myself away from it because I thought maybe it was going to be contentious with you. And I didn't want to kind of put you off.

I'm really strong on this thought. And I thought, what's it going to do? Like, what really was it going to do if I bring this up and ask you? And I completely disagree. But I want to go there with you now. is a big moment. There's this moment, and this is the only moment that we have. And by definition, then this is the most important moment in life. And then whether it's a Super Bowl, or it's a first week trial playoff, I'm sorry, practice, or it's, you know, intimate conversation with somebody, or it's cleaning the dishes, like it's the only moment we have. So, and I'm going to, I just want to talk about this for a second with you is that I've often said, and this is maybe like a keynote address or some sort of workshop that I'm in where I hit that moment, or I'm sorry, I that topic pretty heavy, that don't believe the hype that you hear from commentators. Don't believe the hype that this is a defining career, defining moment,

defining game. And I know that, you know, I hear it so often. I don't know if I've ever heard you say it, but I've heard it so often that it's like, that's wrong. And so what you just said is there's a comma, not a period. And I say it's wrong, but please disagree like completely, but I'd love to hear what you think about it is like, this is the only moment we have. So can we show up in this moment and practice being in this moment so that when lights are on, we're practiced at being present. And then we start to learn at some point that it doesn't matter whether lights are on or not. Like it's just, we're practicing being here. And so can you riff on that a little bit? And I'm a little nervous, but I really want to learn from you. Well, if I think that you go into every broadcast knowing there's a storyline for every game, whether that's a mid NFL season, week five game or whether it's a playoff game or the Super Bowl, which I did a couple of weeks ago.

You know, there's going to be something that may happen that you want to some dangerous territory if you build it up too much and stray away from your principles and how you're going to handle a moment narrative overrides the game or I want to make sure that I come through and my presence is felt and I put my stamp on this game. I've never thought that. There are probably some that do, and they're stronger-willed, stronger of mind, more convicted. I don't know. But what I go in as a fan and prepared stronger of mind, more convicted. I don't know. But what I go in as a fan and prepared and think whatever happens, happens.

Now, sometimes I become too much the fan, and I'll get excited for a big Baldwin catch and a dive at the five that sets sets up the game winning touchdown by Russell Wilson, or I'll see a Tom Brady win his sixth Superbowl and know that there is history being made by that moment. He's been there nine times. He's won six times. He's the oldest quarterback ever. And I hope I'm getting to the point you're trying to make here, but I guess I never, I there there's a, there's a term in, in broadcasting. Let the game come to you.

Don't you try to manufacture the game. We've obviously got notes and things to supplement and kind of bring people along the journey to kind of give them a background of what's going on. But I don't think you intentionally go in trying to be bigger than the game or you don't want to. The problem becomes if your emotional side, if your passionate side begins to play through because you're enjoying it so much, you feel your voice is strong and you're coming up with the right words at the right time and things are just clicking. You've got to be, you got to make sure you arrest that a little bit because that can become pretty overpowering.

It's like it's like the skills you have are like are like so in sync that it's like you can't screw up. There are other days where it's like you're just like pulling thoughts and words. They just don't come out fast enough. You cannot drag them out of your mouth and your brain quick enough to really correspond to how great a play was or how something unfolded. And so, but the overriding thing, let the game come to you. And if it is that great game in the middle of an NFL season, or if it is a heroic comeback in a, in a Superbowl game, which is going to have long lasting historic relevance, you know, then, you know, you've got to get away. Okay. I don't want to give it too much, but I've got to give it enough that it, that it,

it tells the listener tells the viewer, Hey, this, hold on here. This is a pretty significant moment. And then there are the other moments that maybe in the first quarter of a regular season NBA game where a guy has just come up with this dunk that is so unbelievable, yet it's in the first quarter of a kind of a mid-season game, like where does it fit? Is that kind of the answer, Mike? Am I on that right path or am I hitting what you're thinking about here? I think yes and no. I think what I'm hearing you say is that you are completely connected to the present moment throughout the entire game and you're trying to toggle back and forth between do I hype this one and celebrate this one or do I

dampen it because I don't want to over, you know, I don't want to over hype something. I don't want to over, um, you know, I don't want to over hype something. I don't want to under hype it. I've got to find this nice little, you know, yeah, it is tough. I think the only reason I think I can like nod my head in agreement and I don't need to, we don't need to agree, you know, by any means, but like, is that because your craft requires you to be completely present and there are moments that call for fear or call for excitement or call for absolute enthrallment in the moment. And there are other moments where we have to work. And it's hard to be in those moments. But they're both equally important, is my point.

And hard to negotiate, hard to negotiate. I love that texture. Yes. Yeah. If you're, if you're, because it is, it's not something you can step back and try to process in your mind. It's like, you've got to negotiate it right then, right there. And there, there is no, there's no stop sign. There's no pause button. There's no mute button that you can hit and think, okay, now what, how should I do this? Like if you're, if you're doing, putting together, um, if you're like a movie director or you're writing a book, you don't have moments of pause. It's like you're on and you're hoping that your years of experience guide you through these different these different twists and turns of a game that, you know, you know what?

I remember handling this before. I didn't think I did it well. Let me try a different tact right now. And you keep that filed in your mind. You take your notes after your broadcast to kind of tear apart what you've just done. Hopefully some of that resonates and that you're better equipped then when it happens again, uh, to maybe negotiate it better. And then you probably listen back and say better, but not exactly where I want to be, but, but it's all split second. And that's, that's kind of the rub here is that there's no moment of pause and reflection. You've got to just, you've got to kind of go as you're going. Yeah, that's a really eloquent, I would not have thought this for you.

It's a really eloquent metaphor for life and your job and your process. And at some point in your career, you have figured out self-trust. Like, okay, I need to know how to trust myself to let go to the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown moment. And then if I can do that, the game will come to me and I'm not going to force it. And it's an apt metaphor for life, for sure. And then I'm really curious, like, how did you get to that place that you can trust yourself to free yourself by letting go? What are the mechanics of that? A lot of going back, listening, painful mistakes, painful moments. Not that I can necessarily rattle them off right now, but I just know there have been moments when I've made a mistake

or I've taken the wrong turn during a game and for whatever reason, and it is experience is the best in everything in life. I mean, that's that, you know, whether it's handling a relationship or dealing with kids or, or handling something that's, that's going on with a construction project or your job, your, your career and the things inherent to that career. And to have those experiences is like invaluable. Like you could not put a price tag on., Oh, I remember I've done this before.

And I remember that I got caught up and I, I gave the wrong score at a very important moment or I, or I, uh, misidentified somebody. So now it's like, make sure the score is right. Make sure I've got the right guy. You know, those, those kind of painful things, they are seared into your mind. When you call somebody like Kirk Harlan instead of Kevin or something like that, like you call them – Just something like that. Is that the big one for you? Like you give them the wrong – like because our name is so important to me or to me, to all of us. Like it's like a very sweet sound to us, right?

And it's down deep in the brainstem. Is that the one that haunts you the most or that you worry about the most? Is the name or is it something else? Well, the critics, if you screw up a name, that is like, that's the first sin because then it shows the people that follow that team, ah, he doesn't really know our guys. So it's less, oh, they've lost seven of eight or they lost three weeks ago to Iowa or they played a a couple weeks ago against the 49ers and they came from behind. It's less that kind of stuff, and it's more kind of the basics. It's like, do you got the guy's name correct?

Mm-hmm. Are you saying it the right way? It's funny what fans like will harp on. It's funny what matters to them. And name becomes like one of those banner things that you say, all right, by God, I better have these names right tonight. And what is hard about that, Mike, is that when we do the NCAA tournament for CBS and Turner, we'll do four games with eight teams in one day in a 10 hour span. It's the first day of the NCAA tournament. And almost more than anything else that I worry about is that I've got the

kid's name, correct. The school's pronunciation, correct. Like the, like the basics, like the first things you would write down, um, here is the, uh, here are the Ohio state Buckeyes and they, you know, and then, and then make sure you got, you've got, you know, name, conference, like just the basics, because that's what, those are the things which will drive a stake into your heart if you screw up. names of every kid on that roster. Because I want to make sure that for a nth time that I have said it, I have said it the way it should be said, and I have just said it so it's resonating and rolling around in my brain. Because that seems to be a real hot button for people. Something as basic as your name.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night

sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect

the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout

for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. You've called my name like four or five times, so I know that you value names. And it is a way to connect. It's a way to deepen a relationship, to share a relationship. But when fans hear it or anybody hears you get somebody else's name wrong, it's like this egregious sin of humanity. It is. Right?

And it's because it it invalidates somebody it it like strips away their their dignity when you don't even know their name and so it's very primal you know very very primal uh thing it's a respect the respect thing too you know it's like um they say you you you've done such research that you don't know the kid's name is Jaleel. You're calling him Jaleel. I mean, like things like that. Like if you've got the accent on the wrong part of his first name, they will jump on you. And so it is imperative.

If I have a hard time, and the problem, here's the other problem, is a lot of these teams, they put out their pronunciation guides. I know we're kind of getting more into the mechanics. But in their pronunciation guides on their releases, they'll just say his name is Mikell. And they'll put small m, small i, small k, and then capital E, capital L, capital L. So when I see that, it's Mike L. But they say, no, no, no, just Michael. But I said, well, then don't. The way you did it on a graphic is wrong.

Like little things like that. So it's constant. It's just it's checks and balances. Get the guy over to your desk, to your broadcast position or in your booth before the game. Let me go through these names. There are 10 names here that I want to make sure that I've got right. And so and so you see him out loud so that you hear him, your partner hears him and the guy that's from the team hears him. And like so like little things like that. But those little things become the big things, right? Like in everything in life, the little things all add up to the big things.

So let's say you got the guy's name wrong. Then later in the first quarter, you've, you've called the wrong yardage or you've, or you've gotten effect. And now it's like, okay, the guy can't get the names right. He's got the date of the game wrong and the result wrong. And he's got something else. So like those things haunt me uh like it's so like on my broadcast sheet before a game i write certain terms and things that that just because if i write them i feel like okay i've buttoned that up it says uh uh no mistakes like like like if not don't get too. If it's not one of those days where it's just not clicking, then dumb it down.

Like, just be very basic. No mistakes. And then for me, because I always strive to be perfect, be perfect. Ooh, so you want to be perfect. I would not have thought about that for you. So tell me about that that because that's exhausting. It is exhausting and it puts a lot on your plate, but I think it heightens, it tries to align, it tries to engage with that certain level of performance where you try to get your mind back. Like what is so hard in our business is to recreate a good broadcast that you've had

and carry it over to the next broadcast for whatever reason, at least for me it is. Because I'm probably not real bright or not. This component is not in my brain. It's like I'll have one game that I really feel good about. I love my voice. I love my pace. I love my cadence. I that i really feel good about i love my voice i love my pace i love my cadence i love i love the way i interact i love my layouts i love

the way i disseminated the information the pacing in terms of how i managed the material that i had was good i called plays that were that i thought needed emphasis or de-emphasis or whatever like all these different things are a part of a part of it. And then I said, well, this is great. I've written all this down. This should be fresh in my mind as I go to the next broadcast. And I'm anything but like it's like it doesn't carry over. But when I put those little terms on the top of my notes, like no mistakes, like just get the basics right and let everything feed off of just beginning with those basics in your mind. Don't overcomplicate it early. Get off the runway,

get your landing gear up, get, you know, climb to your altitude and make sure that you just have, you know, just get the plane off the ground. And so if I can kind of begin that way, then it kind of begins to build that confidence. And then something engages in you, whatever that is that engages, where you now are back and you're running the race at your pace. Some days you start off strong. Other days you start off slow.

And I cannot for the life of me figure out why that is why i i i i struggle with that and i'm sure to the last broadcast i have i'll struggle with why i cannot duplicate why can't i replicate what i did four days ago why can't i bring that performance to this performance and that that that's but that's again the challenge that is this business and his performance. I'm sure there are opera singers and actors and singers and, and musicians that, that probably feel the same way that they're not the same every single day. It sounds like this is what drives you crazy. This is the part, this is the part. I can't figure it out. I cannot figure it out. But I'm not a bright guy. I'm a C plus B minus student. I think I only have had a degree of success in this business because I'm so passionate about it and I don't let a bad performance linger. Like I said, okay, why did that happen?

Why was I not? And then invariable, if I've had a game where I did not meet my standards, the next game I feel like there you got it. There you go, chief. You were able to reclaim yourself, and now let's carry that on to the next one. It's almost like when you've had a bad game, I almost now always expect to have a better game the next time out. I love it. I'm not buying the low intelligence thing

for a second here. You don't know me very well. I'm a pretty simple guy. Can I offer something to you here? Like, you know, at the risk of maybe overstepping here, but when I hear you searching for perfection, my antenna go up like, whoa, okay. And I haven't found that to be a more apt guide because they're sharp and they're in it as opposed to this unattainable thing of perfection. sharp sword, right? Like be on it. And I'm wondering if like, this is me, maybe overstepping my bounds a little bit here with you, but instead of no mistakes and perfection, I wonder, and here I am saying something to the best in the world at what he does. Like, what if you flipped it and you're, and at the top you put trust, you know, and you, and you put, um, flow, you put, uh, um,

let it unfold. You know, own your stuff or something, like something along those lines. And then maybe I've got the wrong word there. Maybe perfection's not it. Maybe it is. Trust is the right word, but it's all those things you just talked about built into that word. Like that word means what you just talked about. And I do, I trust my preparation. I rarely feel like I'm underprepared. I get that for you. So, but, but what you just said,

I think in my world, because I know it's, it is unattainable. There's no perfect quarterback there. Actually there is a perfect quarterback rating. It's 158.3. Some quarterbacks get that. But I think every quarterback strives to get that says, no interceptions, get every snap, make the correct read. And like, he takes all those thoughts in that bubble. And to him, that means be perfect because in his mind, I think you've, I think you've got to, you've got to visualize, you've got to visualize what in your mind is perfect. Well, in my mind, what I visualize when I say perfect is getting the names right, not stuttering, strong voice, good cadence, good pace, measuring excitement, getting in my analyst, like that's what, when I envision perfect, maybe for everyone, perfect is so unattainable that why

are you even reaching for that? But my mind perfect is making sure that my perfect is all the things I just rattled off. And for a quarterback like Aaron Rodgers, his perfect may be no interceptions, buy time for my receivers, make sure that I am able to declare my protections at the line and making the right declarations for protecting my myself and this play. And that is what means perfect for him. Other people would say, well, it wasn't perfect. He threw an incompletion. It wasn't perfect. He almost had that pass intercepted. But in his mind, perfect is getting the play off after setting the protections the correct way, making the correct reads, and it may be an incompletion, but in his mind, there was nothing there. I made my reads. So that really, in my word, was perfect. So I guess my perfect is maybe different than other people's perfect. Perfect is unattainable. Perfect is, if you're a religious person, perfect is God. But in my world, perfect is making sure the

staples that make a good broadcast are adhered to. That if I make a mistake, quickly correct it, admit the mistake, and move on. That, you know, while it may be a nick, it still would fall under my umbrella of, okay, you know, I took responsibility for my mistake. If I made one, quickly corrected it, we move on and was able to move on and not lose any, any pace, any. That is where, that's where the perfect thing can get problematic, which it sounds like you've got a model that you're working for or with, you know, which is more forgiving and fluid as opposed to rigid and stiff. And perfectionism does conjure up this rigidity. Like if it's not perfect, it's an all or nothing bad game, good game. Right. And what I've experienced with world-class athletes is that

some say perfection, but really what they're looking for is like full commitment, see it, feel it, execute. And it doesn't, you know, let's say quarterbacking, see the receiver, see the route, understand it, let it rip with great commitment. And then if the ball gets intercepted, well, somebody might have made a better call or a good jump or whatever, whatever, whatever. Exactly. But it's like, did I see it? Did I set it? And did I commit on the execution of it? My job's done at that point, you know? And if I, if I missed the blind spot and there's a middle linebacker come screaming through,

well, you know what? I got to figure that out. But it is like, it's a process. I'm sure you, in your business, you have a process that you deal with, whether it's an interview like this or with dealing with the NFL head coach or a player or whoever you're dealing with. There's a process that you follow that because everyone's different, it's not and every game is different. Every broadcast is different. But there is a there's a launching pad that in your mind say, okay, in my mind, I'm prepared. I'm ready. I think I've got a good handle on this situation. Let's take off and see where it takes us. And along the way, you hope you negotiate those twists and turns with what is in your mind the perfect way, like a response from someone you're talking to or a case that you're on or a problem you're trying to untangle, which I'm sure are incredibly difficult and involve a lot of things that, you know,

no one knows about your profession, but you do. And so in your mind, you've got, am I right? I mean, like you've got this method, this process. The process is always evolving. And the challenge in psychology is that everything's invisible. And so that part makes it really tricky, you know, for sure. I bet it does. I want to thank you for sharing your brilliance about how you approach and prepare and your framework for how you make sense of things. Is there a game or is there a call? Better yet, is there, when I say most memorable call, what comes up for you? Well, I don't know. A lot of it blends together because i do so many um if you asked fans they would cite things like there was this lebron james dunk back in the playoffs at a very early

stage of his career that was a defining moment in that game and part of this greatness that he was building. And the words just kind of popped out and out. It's been replayed many times from something as serious and as dramatic and as majestic as that to Monday night broadcast they had a couple of years ago in San Francisco and a drunk kid ran out onto the field. I remember this. I called the kid as if he was part of a play. He's taking off his shirt. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, you know, it really, so those are two pretty opposite things. And so I really can't tell you if there is a, I can remember, and I guess I remember things for different reasons. And so because the voice for me is a constant, a constant evaluator in how I feel I've done. I guess I go to moments when I felt my voice was really strong

and I had my perfect pace and I was at my speed level. You know, something that's pretty intricate and inside and only like in your head that you can only gauge yourself. But things that, moments that I remember. And so what I'll do is I'll take a snippet of that and keep it on my iPad or on my phone or whatever. And, and we'll play it back sometimes in the morning of a game to re-engage my head like, okay, Hey, Hey, listen, you know,

this is what I thought after a lot of study and going over, reevaluating of a broadcast, I liked the way I sounded on this particular 22 seconds. Um, I've got them on my phone and I, I did a, I did an Ohio state, Indiana basketball game. And, uh, I woke up and the first thing I did was hit the 22 seconds of a voice, uh, quality that I had done that I like. And so it's more of those kind of moments that I remember than it are the games. Do I remember the 10 Super Bowls I've done?

Absolutely. Do I remember the five Final Fours that I did? Absolutely. Do I remember the regional final games that I broadcast? There's no doubt. And there are parts of those games which I have kept clips of, but more not because of the play or the used my voice or a pacing or word usage or the orchestra that is the crowd that I want to make sure that I get because it is it's a lot of this it's a lot of going back repeat rinse repeat rinse repeat rinse repeat it's a lot of that kind of stuff to get your mind re-engage

because the mind is such a tricky thing and can play tricks on you. And you just don't know how your mind that has got to be connected to your voice is how that translation is going to happen from broadcast to broadcast. And hopefully listening to those things will trigger something in my mind that will then catch up with my voice. And then the two are in sync and I've got that pacing because what I have found, I don't know why this is, regardless of how many hours I've watched tape or how many hours I put into preparation, it gets down to the basic thing for me that I am my most confident when my voice is strong and I can say anything and I just, it just builds the confidence. And if my voice is

strong and I've got that confidence, then it triggers something in my head. And then everything just seems to really follow, you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Maybe a quarterback feels that way when he's in pregame warmups and he throws that that pass since he's warming up he says okay my arm feels great or that or that pitcher in the bullpen feels like gosh i'm able to really spin that ball today and i know that my breaking stuff is going to be right on point so it kind of after all of this other stuff it gets back to the very basic, the instrument. Is my voice giving me the confidence to go? And if I'm a little bit sick or if my voice is not there for whatever reason, I don't feel that part of the engine really clicking.

It seems to then it's kind of a domino effect. I don't have maybe my utmost confidence and I don't have my perfect pacing, and I don't have my reliance on my analyst that regardless of what he says, I'll tie it up and I'll tag it and we'll move on. But if my voice is right, if a pitcher's pitch is breaking, if that quarterback is standing up with confidence in the way his arm is able to deliver, if that opera singer gets on that stage and she is able to belt out those first couple notes, you know, that's pretty powerful. So it gets, it kind of all comes back to what is your instrument like? What is the thing that you

rely on most? And I guess what I rely on most is my voice to kind of be the ignition that gets the rest of the broadcast going. Is there a phrase that guides your life? Like this is a deep philosophical question. And it's more about how you organize your thoughts and your words and your voice and your preparation and your relationships. But is there a phrase that guides your life? I would say attention to detail, which we hear every day for all of us. But as I mentioned before, Mike, to you, it's the little things which always add up to big things. It's like whether it's a relationship at home and making sure you call one of your kids or that you just, just because you

feel it and you've got to be in the moment, but the attention to detail has, Hey, sweetheart, you look great today. Or I love that meal. Or isn't this fun to enjoy our home the way we enjoy our home or just, I think attention to detail because it's, I know there are books that don't, you know, don't sweat the small stuff and everything is the small stuff. I think there's a book that we've got in our things that get bigger, whether it's a child that may be struggling with homework or not giving affirmations to a spouse or taking care of a snowy driveway that, oh, you know, but then there's more rain and there's more snow that now you've got this thick ice and you've got a problem. But had you taken care of just knocking off the dusting a couple days ago and putting some salt on the day after that, you've taken care of it. Now it's not a big problem.

You've taken care of the small little details that take care of the issue. So it's, I guess for me, and I think the more I've read about Belichick and the more I've read about Saban, who I really, I just admire the way that they go through things. And it's a tried and true, and they are, I really think they are two guys that pay attention to the details. It's all about the details.

And that's kind of how it is in this business I'm in. When I listen back to a Monday morning, to a Monday night broadcast the next morning on radio, I have a set of things that I check. I've got columns that I need to fill. And I'm at play that I check all the things that I think are important on a particular call of a play? And when I listen to my CBS NFL broadcast, you know, a couple of days after the fact, have I done the things per play, not like over the quarter, but per play that I need to do as a play-by-play man identifying the right guy giving me the yardage who made the tackle where's the ball how does it fit in the scheme of this drive you know things like that the small things but if you neglect those small things now you've looked at the totality of your first quarter broadcasting and said i didn't feel like i had a good handle on that quarter i didn't feel like on that particular series, on that nice long drive,

that I really grabbed onto the things that were important. But if you do the small things along the way, they all add up to you feeling like, yep, I can check that box. I did address it. I did handle it. It was discussed. So attention to detail. Long answer. attention to detail, long answer, attention to detail, I just think can follow you in

every facet of life, relationships, handling your finances, dealing with your career, and then handling relationships with friends. And just attention to detail, I just think it will never go out of style. You know, it sounds like that's obviously an important, the maybe central philosophy for you. And that's how you prepare even down to the names of the players and the pronunciation of the names and the preparation of your voice. And do you do voice coaching or do you take voice coaching? I've read about it. I've looked at it. I do not take any coaching. A lot of, and a lot of kids will write me and say, how do I get my voice better? How do I, so now I've kind of become a voice coach and it's almost

by trial and error because I've been doing it since I was 14. So because I began so young and had a time in my life where I was going through puberty and changing and your voice changes. And my voice now at 57 is different than when I was 47, which was different when I was 37. Your voice is kind of that instrument that is always changing. And you're always kind of tweaking it a little bit, not because of old age or not because of whatever. It's just because you're just trying to refine was things I did to try to get my voice the way it sounds. Now, I don't, this is not the voice that I envisioned me having. I envisioned when I was young, a voice that was much different than this.

And so I step away a lot of times. And I think a lot of people feel this. I think, oh, I love my voice or I love the way I sound. I don't feel that way at all. There are moments when I've delivered a line or delivered a call that I'm comfortable with. But to say that I love my voice, this is not the voice that I dreamt and thought I would have when I was 14, 13, 15 years old. And when I thought about my career, it's the voice that God gave me. There's nothing I can do about it. I can strengthen it. I can, I can, I can tweak it a little bit. I can emphasize

other parts of it a little bit, but I can't, what you have is what you have. And that's kind of what I tell the kids that write in and say, you know, what about my voice? Cause I always say, get your voice done. Make sure your instrument is ready to play. Make sure that you've got this, because if you don't have this, all of this will not matter. Because then maybe if you got all this, maybe you should be a producer

or maybe you should be a director or maybe you should be an editor or maybe you should be an advertiser. But to be in the business and to get to the level you want to get to, you've got to have a voice. Well, if I would have gotten a letter like that from me at that age and that person at my age would have listened to me at 14 years old, work on your voice there, buddy. Make sure you make

sure you and make sure you have voices that you are you're striving for and use that as a roadmap. But eventually you're going to have to take your exit ramp, and whatever that ramp is is what you are. How do you warm up? What do you do to warm up your instrument? You know, I will. One thing that I have, again, experience has taught me this is that I try to put on the headset well before we get on the air, 45 minutes to an hour before we get on the air. And one of the ways is I'll begin to read the promotion cards that we've got to read during the broadcast. Watch two and a

half men tonight on CBS, eight, seven central, you know, or 60 minutes tonight. Why did the ambassador to Italy say this? They got him a raise, you know? So, so I'll use those moments off the air an hour before the broadcast to kind of warm myself up and to get my voice to where I want it to sound or try to get it to where I want it to sound. And then I'll watch the kids in the warm-up line or practice before a game. And I'll go, here's a touchdown pass by Russell Wilson. He throws downfield to Doug Baldwin for six. Or, you know, I'll go through these practice things. I feel, well, if Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady is practice

or Peyton Manning, who is the ultimate rotation guy and rep guy, the ultimate rep guy, if he's out there throwing 10 out patterns, why shouldn't I be in the booth practicing those the way i would call them during a game i've got to get warmed up too why and so over the years i've watched these other professionals at the height of their craft you know practice practice practice practice and and do it over and over and over and over again so i do the same thing before a game i'll put my headset on and i will practice calling that play warming up up my voice and trying to get it in my head to the level I need to get it to. And over the years, because I have broadcast since, you know, since I like I said, 13, 14 years old.

So I've lost some of my hearing. So I've had to work with my audio guys in the truck to try to compensate for the loss I've had in my hearing so that the headset sounds just right. And I'm sure you would talk to these audio guys I work with and they go, oh my God, would you just stop? Just here, this is the way it sounds. Here's what you've got to do. And this is what you're going to get. But I've now got a very complicated list of things that I need the headset to sound like coming into the game. It's got to have more high end, less low end. There's got to be more clarity and less of this and more of that and, and, and, and, and more of this.

And so that has become a process to come up with the recipe, my equation for the way I need my headset to sound. So it is just right. But again, it's no different than Brady wanting his cleats to feel the right way or Russell Wilson wanting his uniform to feel the right way or his shoulder pads to be at a certain tightness or the football to feel a certain way. That's a big thing with these quarterbacks, the way their footballs have to feel, you know, then they can bring their practice balls into the game and they can use them, but they've all got a different way of how it's going to feel. And, and so that's what I call,

you know, the attention to detail, just the small things which help the bigger product. Beautiful. And then how do you articulate or define this beautiful concept, this deep and rich concept of mastery? I would say mastery is anything but mastering a certain skill. It is a lifelong process. It is a lifelong journey. And at the end, when you do put that period on your career, you may not have mastered something to the point of perfection or the 10,000 hour rule, which I believe in. But it was the steps you took along the way, the journey that made you feel like you were on the road to mastery. And some kids are just more talented. I told our girls growing up, some girls are just prettier. Some girls have better clothes. Some girls have better hair days. Some girls have better shoes. Some girls get all

the boys. Or I'll tell my son, some kids always make the varsity. Some kids always score the goal. There's always going to be somebody better. But what you've got to do is be true to what you, if you don't, if you don't try to improve what you do, then how are you ever going to know what you can become? So always attempt to be perfect, be part of that process, always enjoy the goal toward mastery, always enjoy the stops along the way that took you one more step up and then one more step closer and one more step closer. And you may never actually touch it. But as Lombardi always said, we may not be perfect, but we can strive for perfection. And if we strive for perfection, that will be better than most other opponents we face.

And so I guess that's how I kind of look at it. I may never be perfect. I may never have the total, you know, embrace of mastery. But if I can strive toward it, then I'll feel like I can put a period on my career, hopefully, and say, I gave it every ounce I had. I never lost sight of mastery. I never lost the concept of what it took to be, you know, to master some skill. And I enjoyed the process because I loved my job and enjoyed the process to get toward that goal. And I think that's all we can all ask for. I mean, there's no one who's the perfect this or the perfect that. But there are a lot of people that have gotten close because they've worked so hard at it. They had the attention to detail with it.

And they never stopped working to the very last day they were behind that desk or in back of that microphone or whatever they did in life. They strove toward that. And so maybe they had a degree of mastery that may have just been at a different degree of somebody else who like in all of life there's always someone who's going to be better so you've got to kind of stick with what you've been given and do the best with what you've been given very clearly you ascribe to become your best rather than try to be the best and it's

no doubt that that's fueled you, um, you know, for a long haul here. And then, you know, last question. And then I want to ask where we can find more and fall along your journey is, is there a moment that comes to mind where an athlete demonstrated, um, mastery and you're captivated by it well um brady does it and rogers does it quarterbacking certain times and you can just see that the confidence they have on the drop back the accuracy with which they throw their total command it's like of the, what's the movie where everything is in slow motion and the guy's not going to wave bullets and they're being fired at him because he's in such a moment where everything is slowed down around him.

Yet his perception is razor sharp and he's just, dude, just throwing darts. Or I've seen it in players like Jordan and in Kobe, who were both people that ascribed to attention to detail, that when they began to feel their game come together because of the hours of practice and the meticulous detail with their footwork and the angle of their shot and the distance of practice and the meticulous detail with their footwork and the angle of their shot and the distance of their shot and their feel of the defense because of hours of tape study that they would get in those moments

where they could not miss a shot. It was, it looked so simple and easy and within the flow of what they were doing. When you see those moments that don't require such incredible effort, that just come in just the everyday grace of their ability, those are the moments that you remember. And so I'll remember Jordan dribbling by our midcourt position of broadcasting. It's like his feet were not even touching the ground. It was like he was floating. And he had such command of where everybody was on the floor.

And then he'd spin around and drive and stop on a dime and take a shot, fall back. And you just knew that he was in, they call it that zone. But I like to say it's that everything is in slow motion. And the hours of preparation, the practice like to say it's that everything is in slow motion. And the hours of preparation, the practice, and the attention to detail that he put into it led him to those moments. Kobe was the same way. Those are really the only two NBA players I can think of. Sometimes Steph Curry, when he begins to shoot, you can just sense that he is even like, okay, you know, this is not just because I'm lucky this game. This is because I practiced,

you know, I shot 750 shots on my off day two days ago. And it's just that by virtue of those practices and the practices and the shots before them, that I'm able to hit this zone. Well, I've hit 10 consecutive three-point shots. And it looks easy, and I can literally dribble, pull up, fire, hit, and just kind of shake my head saying, like, you know, like, thank you, God, and thank you for the skills you've blessed me with that I'm able to execute like this. But at the heart of it, he knows that a lot of guys have skill.

A lot of guys can shoot, but it's his mastery of the shot because he's put in hours and hours and hours of work taking endless shots in practice when no one was watching. That he's able to do that, like Jordan and like Kobe and like Brady and like Rogers and like these great, Peyton Manning, like these greats. There are segments where you know that it's not because they're lucky. It's because they have put in all this time with thought and attention to detail that they're able to. But but those moments are rare. I mean, those moments. I can't I can't tell you a game. I can't tell you a sequence, but I can I can tell you I've seen it.

I've called it and I know it's there because of what I've witnessed with my own eyes in that arena, on that field, in that game, that I know exactly what they're going through. And there are moments as a broadcaster that you feel like your voice is right on and you cannot miss. And then there are the other moments,

which is kind of more the majority of the time, where you are constantly working, you're grinding, but you're relying on those moments of self-appraisal to guide you along those moments when it maybe is not as easy and doesn't flow like that but when it does it it you you you say boy how how great didn't that feel good like you like like you don't want the game to end like you don't want the broadcast to come to a conclusion because you're in that groove you're in that zone and you just say god i'm sorry to see the buzzer sound i'm sorry to see

the time off the clock those are the those are the most enjoyable games when i'm playing or uh yeah mostly what i'm playing is that all of a sudden the buzzer goes off i have no real sense of where the score is um i have a feel for the game but it's like the buzzer goes off and i'm like oh look at that look up at the score it doesn't even almost doesn't matter it's like the buzzer goes off and I'm like, oh, look at that. Look up at the score. It doesn't even, almost doesn't matter. It's like the rich competition was so hard and challenging and there's so much good in there that like everybody wins at some point. And it sounds soft, but it's actually way deeper than the outcome. Yeah. You know, and it's however deep you want to take it really.

But those basic thoughts that you kind of hear, even from the time you start playing sports, right? You just, you know, we want you to enjoy playing. That's the number one thing. But then along with enjoying is being competitive. And then, you know, all the layers that follow that. But those are the first words of the coach. Enjoy what you're doing.

Enjoy what you're doing. There's no doubt why you are world-class, leading in what you're doing. I want to thank you for the time, for the insight, for sharing how and also revealing some of the mental skills you use, which is obviously self-talk, lots of imagery, the preparation, attention, and detail. No doubt why you do it

and how you do it. So thank you for that. And people can find you at Kevin Harlan. Is that on Twitter? It is. I really don't go to the site. My kids will tell me if there's things on there that I should pay attention to. I don't tweet a lot. I really use it as a news source because I like to follow so many gifted writers covering the different sports they do. So I use it as more of a news source.

But if there's something there that I need to see, one of the kids will say, hey, dad, check it out just to see that this person has said something nice or this person said something mean to, you know, you probably should look at it. And so occasionally I'll dip in there and take a look before you can get caught up in other people's opinions. And that that becomes kind of a danger zone. So but but that is a way to guess that is a way ultimately to get in touch with me. Cool. As we're wrapping up, have you heard of FOPO, fear of people's opinions? I've heard of FOMO, but not FOPO, but I like what you say. FOPO, fear of people's opinions. I think it's the greatest fear of humans right now.

And, you know, there's no more saber-toothed tigers. There are dangerous humans in the world. But the number one fear for people is people's opinion, FOPO. And so it sounds like you don't have a case of FOPO. But many people do. I'm human. I mean, like you. You know, we all say, hey, Mike, that was a bad podcast.

Hey, Mike, I didn't like the way you broke that particular situation down. And then you say, well well i thought i handled it well why didn't you like it i thought the broadcast was fine what didn't you like about it i mean you care but but you it but it it can destroy you and it can tear you apart i've got a young daughter she's 25 in the business and i and and just like all these kids man they are on social media they read everything and i think they take it to heart. And I worry about kids that are like this thing, this exact topic you're talking about. I think I don't see a lot of constructive stuff about it.

If it's about a performance or your job or something like that, there may be, like I talked about before, there might be a vein of truth in there and something you've got to consider. But when it's a personal attack, I mean, I don't know what good good that does for anybody it seems like a lot of it is a personal attack and way you look the way you whatever what you've worn and i i i you know that that's tough for these kids to deal with because i think there's so much on their plate to deal with as it is and you start filling a universal opinion of what they look like or how they act or whatever and now that's a lot that's a lot to bear from the anonymous, from the anonymous, exactly. From people that cannot or not, you cannot, you, they, they, they don't, they don't attach themselves to that. Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible. Hey, can I do something fun? I don't, and you feel free to say yes, please,

which is, uh, I'd love this. I'm Kevin Harlan and this is Finding Mastery. Like, I would love that. Can I hear that? Yes, yes. Hi, this is Kevin Harlan and this is Finding Mastery. I love it. Too good. Okay, Kevin, thank you. Thank you, Mike.

Yeah, it's been awesome. And look forward to meeting you in person at some point. And so thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Yeah, we'll get it to Seattle. It'll be forward to meeting you in person at some point. And so thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Yeah, we'll get it to Seattle. It'd be nice to connect somehow at a game or whatever. But you're nice to show any interest in me. And I appreciate your time very much.

Yeah, let's make sure that when you're in Seattle, that that happens for sure. And I'm based in LA as well. So if there's ever a chance we can connect, that'd be fun. Okay, Kevin, all the best. Take care. Okay. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard

about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.