Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Know Yourself, Work Hard, and Overdeliver | Volleyball Star, Supermodel & Entrepreneur Gabby Reece

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

Today, we’re diving deep with someone who redefines what it means to excel — the legend, Gabby Reece. Gabby was Nike’s first female spokesperson, she’s a successful entrepreneur with her husband Laird Hamilton, a best-selling author, and a former supermodel named one of the "Five Most Beautiful Women in the World" by Elle Magazine. As if that wasn’t enough, she also played professional beach volleyball for five seasons – two of which she was named the tour’s Top Offensive Player.Gabby has created a life she loves – and she’s here to share the principles that have guided her extraordinary adventure.From overcoming a challenging childhood to becoming a household name, Gabby talks about turning fear into fuel, the relentless pursuit of excellence, and the power of gratitude. She’s not just about success on the court or in the boardroom—she’s about thriving in every aspect of life.So, whether you’re looking to conquer your own challenges or just curious about the mindset of a true champion, I’m confident you’ll be able to connect with Gabby’s insights and wisdom._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. If you work 20% harder, you'd make it 80% easier. When you're leading something,

your job is just to create the space for everyone to be successful. If you are trying to do something and you're committed to doing it right, you have to commit to doing it right all the time. Know who you are, what's your strategy, how hard you're willing to work, and if a door opens just a little bit, over-deliver. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist.

Today, we're diving deep with someone who redefines what it means to excel, Gabby Reese. She's a successful entrepreneur with her husband, Laird Hamilton, a best-selling author, a former supermodel named one of the five most beautiful women in the world by Elle Magazine, and she played

professional beach volleyball. Gabby has created a life that she loves, and she's here to share the principles that have guided her extraordinary adventure. From overcoming a challenging childhood to becoming a household name, Gabby talks about turning fear into fuel, the relentless pursuit of excellence, and the power of gratitude. She's not just about success on the court or in the boardroom. She's about thriving in every aspect of life. So whether you're looking to conquer your own challenges or just curious about the mindset of a true champion, I'm confident that you'll be able to connect with Gabby's insights and wisdom.

So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with the legend, Gabby Reese. Gabby, I am so stoked to have you here. Thank you so much for spending the time to dive into the way you've designed your life and how you've lived an extraordinary way of living. All right. Well, I appreciate you having me here. Like we were talking earlier, I obviously know a ton of people who have worked with you and who know you and have followed your work because it's a lot of the stuff that I'm always interested in. Oh, fun.

We're going to go somewhere then. Okay. Yeah, let's go. Okay. So you've done a lot at a really high level. And this isn't like a flash in the pan, one hit wonder, two hit wonder. Like you've been really consistent. You've got a full family, full business. You've competed at the highest level. So the basic question that I have is like, how are you doing it all? There's a part of, I think,

us that looks at someone like you and says, it's so inspirational. And then the other side is like, yeah, but how? like, I can't do all that. She's built different. She's different. So just generally, how do you think about how you've done so much in life? Well, I think you said something interesting, the word all. I think it's not that I've done it all. I've done different things at different times and maybe tied those together. So it gives you this tapestry of this notion of all. But for example, when I was competing at my highest level, I was, my husband, when I met him, had a small child, but her mother's involved. So there was a child, but I had, I didn't have my

other two girls yet. So it wasn't like I like doing Kerry Walsh where it's like time having babies, doing Olympics, traveling. So I was playing ball and working. And, you know, at that time I was doing TV. I called it the side hustle so I could afford to play volleyball. And then, you know, then sort of take on having a family and actually be more, way more behind at that time as far as like being supportive, nurturing there for my family, for my husband. You know, Laird's career was sort of really going up at that time.

So it made more sense. You know, you're evaluating where's the energy best placed right now. And it was actually being first as a mother because it's like, hey, they're only babies for such a short period of time. And it was the thing I felt really good about. And then sort of supporting Laird. And then it was like, okay, the girls are bigger, what is the next thing look like? And so I think it's a question of, for me personally, I think the initial of my success comes from fear. It comes from needing to survive. It comes from me taking care of myself. So okay, you're six three, you can sort

of hit this ball, okay, and there's these opportunities, boom. And I loved it. And I loved working hard and being on a team, which felt like a family. So that was probably the initial impetus for hyperfocus. Okay, so first, so if I pull on some of the threads, the core is fear? Initially, sure. Fear of what? Well, there was no safety net.

Is that pointing to your family structure? Sure. Out at 17 and pretty much on my own. Or for other reasons? I graduated high school at 17. I went to the Florida State on a scholarship. And then by that summer, I was 18. And I moved to New York and started working.

Then I gave up my scholarship after my sophomore season. So I paid to play my last two years because it wasn't like NIL. Because the NCAAs, if we go to tournaments, I'm in magazines and then they're in tournaments. It's, it was starting to become a hassle. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah. You were really early on that dual path. Yeah. So I paid to play. So you paid your tuition. My last two years. Yeah. You could, I didn't even know you could do that. I worked it out with my coach who I actually spoke to today. And what happened is, is I think she understood my, you know, my family life was never really that stable. So I, I think I understood early I was going to have to navigate it. So I think the skill of surveying, maybe being maybe over hyper alert, which isn't a good thing. So if we agree that no one's getting through this world without trauma, right? Like

we're all going to face trauma, micro trauma, big trauma. Did you have trauma early? Yeah. And I have a theory about this actually, now that I'm a little older and I've sort of gotten really reflective of it. When I was, my parents, I don't, they weren't together very long. And so my mother, this is kind of strange. She trained dolphins in a circus and she wasn't with my dad and she was in Mexico city. I got whooping cough. I ended up living, I'm jumping, but with a family, neighborhood friends of hers. She's from New York for five years without my parents. So I lived with this couple.

What age were you? Two to seven. So then I moved back in with my mom at seven. And granted, this is just information. She's sort of not particularly on it, let's just say. So I was bounced around quite a bit. Was it mental health drugs i think it's i it felt like a mental component it just felt like somebody who also held a lot of

good cards but just couldn't get to the completion part and maybe i'm not sure did she have you young she did yeah probably in her early 20s but it's also just um a certain kind of emotionality, kind of freedom, sort of like, oh, I got to pick up at school. That was sort of like three hours ago, you know, kind of that kind of stuff. So really early, I think unlock right the backup plans because oh yeah you were playing high level ball and you had a backup plan of of modeling and then when you were playing beach you had a backup plan of a family i don't know that's really a backup plan but like you're so you were constantly probably managing two things on a regular basis or just being keeping aware aware of what i think it's sort of like who am i in relationship to the world that i live in where do i fit what am i uh what sort of is appealing to me where do i think i want to go even as a kid right what that makes perfect sense where do i fit if from two to seven oh yeah there was like a and they they were lovely, by the way.

Yeah, but it's still, there's still a jostled experience at a young age when you see. And I think your father died early. He died when I was five. Yeah. So he died during that time in a plane crash. And kind of the irony thing that was sort of funny and cool is the woman, my aunt Naret, she since has passed away. I was five feet at seven.

My aunt Naret was five feet at seven. My aunt was five feet tall and she was like an overweight Jewish woman from New York. Right. And she, she was tough, but she was very loving and like really funny. And she would say things like, she'd take me shopping. They were really broke, you know? And someone would be like, oh, is this your daughter? You know? And this is a lady who sat on my feet when we watched TV on the couch to keep them warm because we were in New York in winter. It was like a cozy. So she was loving, but she was tough.

And so she'd say, she'd look at me. I was this tall kid, long blonde hair. And she's like, what do you think? So I think I always, we never brushed anything under. So that made that kind of easy. Like, Hey, this is different and it's okay. Nobody's hiding or dancing or doing any of that. So part of an early experience is that you confronted the truth.

Yeah. And I think when you live in long Island, New York, they confront the truth. There you go. You know what I mean? Yeah. That would like what you didn't have a whole lot of means family structure. Yeah, and I think when you live in Long Island, New York, they confront the truth. There you go. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you didn't have a whole lot of means. Family structure, let's call it super atypical.

Yeah. And then did you say your family is Jewish or just your aunt? No, just my aunt and her aunt. Okay. No, not at all. My mother comes from a Catholic and my father's West Indian, so more, I would say, Christian. Yeah, okay. But what I learned was the kind of straightforwardness about what is.

And something else happened very interesting for me when I was in New York is I watched two people, the couple, they took what life gave them. There was never the idea. This is the aunt and uncle. Okay. That you could orchestrate how you'd want it. These were people who were very hardworking, but you basically took what life gave you. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction.

In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal.

For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart,

you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Knowing you from a distance as a public figure, I don't see that that's your philosophy in life.

Right. And so I remember sitting and looking, and I have a daughter who's similar in a different way, and so I understand her, where I think we see things about ourselves or our life, or we get a whisper when we're younger. And I remember even with my mom, she made certain things very difficult. And I thought, if you work 20% harder, you'd make it 80% easier. And you had that insight when? Very early, seven, eight years old. Very, very early. Like, oh, I'm not going to do it this way. I'm going to make this easy. So you were tall?

Mm-hmm. Were you pretty? I was weird looking, but maybe from the outside, but nobody was running around going, you're so pretty. Because, you know, I was six feet at 12 and you're sort of awkward. So you didn't grow up with lots of attention because of the way you looked i did get a lot of attention you did yeah okay so but it wasn't typical like oh my god you're so beautiful only adults said that which doesn't matter because kids your peers are just like you know torturing you for being tall and i will will throw in another thing that just occurred to me is my mother is very tall, 6'2 1⁄2-ish, probably less now.

You're 6'3". 3', yeah. My mom was also very, very beautiful. So the other lesson that came when I was young is probably not the only currency. Beauty is not the currency. No, I learned that also very early. Yeah, it is a currency, but it's not. No, it's not the currency. No. I learned that also very early. Yeah, it is a currency,

but it's not. No, it's not the currency, right? And so I watched somebody. It's a depreciating asset in most worlds. Not all. Oh, really? In the West, it certainly is. Oh, yeah. I know. And so I think I would study and think, okay, well, because I was interested in sort of stability, maybe. And so I. No, I put it. Yeah, for sure. I put an explanation. Yeah. I was interested in sort of stability maybe. And so I- No, I put it- Yeah, for sure. I put an explanation. Yeah. I was interested in stability.

Yeah. Tried to let that go. Yeah. But watching these kinds of obstacles that the adults in my life had, I thought, okay, could I avoid that maybe when I get older? Sounds super healthy. And it also makes sense of how you,

like as a cheap kind of throwaway statement, you push the edges, like you and your husband push on the edges, physiologically, psychologically, emotionally. And that's a way to create deeper adaptation so that you can be more at home with yourself, more stable, if you will. And your approach is to push right to the edge over and over and over again. So it makes sense why you both or why you would be world leading in that narrative, in that life approach based on early experiences, which is rad. I often ask young talents when somebody who's tall, let's say an athletic or somebody who's a model that's really pretty or handsome, at what age did you notice adults treated you differently because of something you

were doing or a way that you looked? Do you remember that first sense? I mean, certainly by the time I was 10 or 11 years old because of my size and I was unusual looking. What does that mean? looking you know it's like you're not a standard i had dark skin and kind of really blonde hair and and where am i from i grew up and then i moved to the caribbean which actually my father's from trinidad really well yeah and so it was sort of like are you where are you from and then you just have a different uh kind of way because once you grow up on an island, you're not maybe exactly, your mentality isn't exactly the same.

It's one of the things that links Laird and I deeply. Right. You're both island. Correct. I didn't know that. I thought you grew up here in the mainland. Yeah. So I'm so grateful for that experience. And so I think probably 11 or 12. And then certainly I was moved to Florida my junior year. So I was 15.

And that's when I got really involved with volleyball and basketball, actually. So I dibble-dabbled in volleyball a little in the Caribbean. And then when I was moved my junior year, because I think I was sort of rudderless. And my mother, I think, recognized that to her credit and moved me to St. Petersburg. And I went to a very small school and that's when I pursued. And by then I was, you know, I was 6'3 already. Do you have a disrespect for authority or just a disinterest? Authority? Oh, that's a new question for you.

It's a great question. I've always liked to think about it. So I answered honestly, I think... Wait, hold on before you answer it. I'm as interested in how you're answering this. Yes. Because the way that you're doing this right now is probably materially important to how you do serious things. So before you answer the question about authority, I won't forget the question. What did you just just do

i don't tend to just say stuff i believe you and what did you right underneath in that private way what did you do how do you really feel about that there you go is that right well okay so my i was interviewed i interviewed jim quick once he said, we all have a leading question. And I knew instantly what mine is. And it's, what's the point? Is always my first question. What is the point? And right behind it is, what's the right way to respond? Okay. What's the point? Meaning, for example, what's the point of this question? No. What's the point? Meaning, for example, what's the point of this question? No. What's the point? I'm just a person who, for example, it's like going out and people going out and doing all this stuff. To me, it looks a lot like theater.

Yeah. I'm like, what's the point? Yeah. Okay, good. How did that show up in that question, the processing of that question? Because when I hear the word authority i really want to drill down on what that meaning is to me yeah there you go what is authority because actually in weird ways i'm very much a rule follower you know if there's a line i'll wait in it

if it's layered layered is going you know i'll be like oh my gosh you know this is this is i'm laughing because this is my wife and me yeah and it's also male and female don't kid yourself a little injection of testosterone and you're just like raw in there you know i i get it i see it okay so i see that but then there's another part of me that um but then i've had great coaches so when you say authority right so i i mentioned I talked to my coach, Cecile Renaud, today. I go through a wall for Cecile because once I understood she was prepared, I respected her, I trusted her, I would question very little. So it's more of an earning thing with me. I'm not just going to adhere to you because you have a uniform or someone tells me.

Right. So trust is earned versus trust is given. That's a great, yeah. I don't think I do. It's for you, it's earned. But I'm not walking around suspicious. I'm always going to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not set up in a way where I'm guarding anything. I'm not guarding. And that is a – I want to go a level deeper than psychological when I'm asking this. That is a philosophical position in life that you're not protecting anything. No. Right.

And so not protecting your ego, not protecting your identity, same thing. Not protecting the welfare of your kids. Well, I think I'm always going to. Yeah. But I don't know that I walk around ultra fearful because I also know that. Any longer. Well, when they're babies. No, no.

Your first model was fear. Yes. Well, I've had to really look at that and go, that's a great, you know, maybe initiator, but can you look at reality and it be like playing by the wrong rules in the wrong game? I'm like, you're in a new situation. You can't play with that old software. You have to figure this out and get the idea of the gift of the opportunity of, you know, of the fun and enjoyment of creativity of expression versus i gotta pull it you know that worked for a while but that's pretty that would be short-sighted of me not to then try to take on a new why or wise yeah um and sort of think you know not everybody gets to kind of do

what they want so how do you want to really do this? What does that look like? And not have that other stuff because sometimes that puts you in places that you don't really even want to be. When you think of a successful life, it's kind of a simple question but really hard to answer. And I was going to ask that question or what does it mean to be a successful human adult not human because i think what we're talking about here is the world props you up or at least i would as being having a successful life on paper and then this is why i wanted to meet you because for that reason like what's what does it really feel like?

Because you could say, no, I'm still scared. You know, I'm actually, I don't know joy and happiness yet. I'm still working at it. But if you answer the questions like which one are you more attracted to? What does it mean to be a successful adult or what does it mean to have a successful life? I think for me it's all of the things I get to do. And when I say that within that, there's the grind, of course, right? Of a relationship, of a business,

good days, bad days, parenting, it's all, the stuff is work. But I always say when I wake up, if I'm mostly working on solving the problems that I want to be solving, that feels pretty good. That's cool. Yeah. The external. That's really cool. Laird feels like a reflection of inside who I want to be with. The relationship I have with my children most days feels like the one I've been hoping to have. The work that I do, the things I get to show up for and talk about

how I spend my time. These are things that feel for the most part like a pretty good reflection of me, who I feel to be inside. And it's never been about attention or money. Those things represent freedom. Attention brings more options. I don't, if people, I go more places than not, and people know me or don't know me. It doesn't really matter to me. It never really has, even when I was a lot younger. But you get attention because of what you've done and who you are yeah and sometimes i don't um i use that that

to me is merely an opportunity where i go hey i'd like to interview that person i'd like to work with that person it isn't like i have attention it's like okay what does that mean it's like hey can i that just gives me a different freedom so So ultimately, I would say it's that freedom, the freedom to work the ways I want to work, my own schedule, my relationship. These are the things that really appeal to me, not more, not accumulating, not stuff. None of that has ever really, I like, of course, I like a nice environment, but I'm not, those aren't the drivers for me. Do you remember a time when you had the idea that you wanted freedom, that you had the idea that you wanted to be less consumed by fear, but you were still in it. You're still like navigating an anxiousness or navigating a schedule that wasn't designed properly for the way you wanted to live. Do you remember a time that comes up for any of those?

I think when I was younger, because you're kind of paying your dues, the schedule is pretty rigorous to almost to a point. It was sort of right on the line. What age are you talking? Starting at 20, going all the way through to probably close to 30. I would say it was a pretty pinned time because you're trying to make things happen. And this is the athletic time for you. Yeah. And, you know, as you know, athletics, what that takes.

And so here I was like, you know, not you know, athletics, what that takes. And so here I was like, you know, not going to spring training and living in New York city and I would go to a studio and take pictures all day and come home and it'd be dark and cold and wash off my makeup and try to go to the gym and train so that I wasn't so out of shape, but then, you know, don't get too big because then you definitely won't fit into any of the clothes for work, which I was already on the line. Right. I was already it was maxed out at six three. Yeah. Yeah.

Because you were not on the beach. You're. You are not a wavy volleyball player. No, you're you're always like fit, like strong fit. Yes. And there's girls smaller than me and there's girls bigger. But you just you you have to these girls are tough you know you have to get you have to have your act together they'll eat

your lunch you know especially now like have you seen the game lately oh yeah it's like yeah it's a different game it is i worry it's too specialized but that's another another conversation that's interesting i worry are we talking about beach or indoor all of it i worry that it's like club and it's all year round and the repetitive motion and what are their bodies going to be like at 25? I mean, there's a series of things. And I think, you know, when we all grew up, all of us were all playing all sports. I played softball and basketball my junior, junior year. You strengthened the entire rotator cuff as a small example. Versus, right. So that's the only part that worries me. And you play a contact sport, you learn a little different lesson

than when there's the net between you and your partner. It's just different. But listen, it has to be that way. These kids are so talented. But for me, I think that those years, but I just, I understand how to take, I know how to, I can load up. So how do you speak to the person who says, I want freedom.

I want less fear. I know I want that. And, but my schedule, my job, my this, my that, you know, and they've maybe early adopted the philosophy of your, I think it was your aunt and your uncle that you just deal with what life gives you. But they've got this tension that says, no, no, no, I want it differently now. I hear you, Gabby. Like, yeah, I want, okay, good. Teach me. Like, people are right on the edge of their seat going, okay, how? How do I do that? How do I design a life where I'm more free, less

anxious? You know, first I would say is the idea of really knowing yourself. I think what was really great for me is I never had, I was never obliged because really nobody was obliged to me. So I didn't, what's great about having a family is you get all this love and support, but you kind of have to answer to somebody because you just really care what they think and feel. I didn't, I was like,

who do I have to answer to? I don't have to answer to anybody. You will not understand the book I wrote. The subtitle is, so the title is The First Rule of Mastery. Yeah. The subtitle is Stop Worrying About What People Think of You. Yeah. This is not for you.

I care about people's feelings. No, but it's not care. This is like worrying. Yeah, I don't care. Yeah. No, you don't worry. I don't worry about it. Yeah, right. Because I can't control it. I mean, that's the punch. This is like worrying. Yeah, I don't care. Yeah. No, you don't worry. I don't worry about it. Yeah, right.

Because I can't control it. I mean, that's the punchline of the whole book. Yeah. So this is great because I wish I would have talked to you earlier in the writing form. So how – you're not a narcissist. Well, are you a narcissist? No. Have you been diagnosed?

I have not, but no. I haven't. Are you a sociopath? No. I don't think so. I might become one after three daughters, but my brain might break my brain. Yeah. I mean, there's enough narcissism in elite sport that you've got to think some kind of

weird way about yourself to think you can do something that special. So there's NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, and a little bit of like just over the edge of confidence and like, I'm pretty special. I can do something. You didn't have that either? I didn't. Yeah. I didn't have that.

I always sort of feel very blue collar. So it's like, here's the job. Do it and do it good. So you were not like spoon fed. No, silver spoon. you're not the so you weren't expected to change a community no right or be successful so you were like an underdog not even and i never felt like an underdog i just again this maybe goes back to island living where you're just you just are and nobody around me was hyper successful there was a couple people but nothing really so the idea was like you're just

going to live you know you're going to build a life but i do remember very early thinking yes and where i can make it easy for myself and i was always very orderly clean as a kid you know kind of trying to control my environment right because everything else was out of control totally so i always had that innately and you know sort of very if you could just work 20 harder it'd be 80 better yeah so that's where you pick up the grind yeah okay and you and early and even today i always really appreciate the opportunity. It's deep because it might infringe any of them. It might almost infringe on, I don't want to say not feeling like you're worthy

because I do feel worthy, but it's that weird line because some of the realities I get to live in now and I've lived in for 30 years are really exaggerated. And it's so clear to me how fortunate that I am. And it's not a performative gratitude. No, no, no. It's an earnest, like you feel it. It's not intellectual.

It's more embodied when you think about how grateful. It's probably both. But it's not me going, I should feel grateful. Right. But I'm less emotional and probably more analytical, but I feel it so much. Like when something happens, like we just did an appearance, we put on an event for this company and that, you know, whatever. And we, it was very little work because we've worked for 30 years to make it very little.

Right. It's easy at this point, but it's been years of doing these things and you know they pay you very handsomely is this xbt um this is outside of something that laird and i do together but it's a you know versions of this and i never think oh i'm so clear because i guess maybe i think about my aunt or uncle joe and like they worked their asses off and barely got paid i'm not a person who like i i guess I'm so clear on that and I don't lose the plot. It doesn't mean I don't, when we're negotiating business things, don't understand the value of things and what things should cost or what rates should be. So I'm not saying, no, you, whatever you want to give me. I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to, you know, paint a false picture, but it, I've never, I never forget.

Like, Hey, this is a, you're really fortunate. Finding mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested.

NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new

offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time.

It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Greys in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down.

And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Chicken and egg. Were you grateful before you had some sense of freedom,

both psychological, financial, and time? I did. Gratitude came first? I think when I was 15, I remember feeling like I got put in this bubble. In Florida, in high school? And I met, I had a boyfriend and his family. They were really nice to me.

They took me to church. I had coaches. They kind of got there. And I met, I had a boyfriend and his family. They were really nice to me. They took me to church. I had coaches. They kind of got there. And I remember feeling like, I've talked about this before. I think we're told, hey, you should have a mom and a dad and it should go like this. And what I learned really early. Two and a half kids, golden retriever. Yeah.

And then there'll be, you know, you'll do Christmas and all these things. And what I learned is I didn't get that, but I got a lot of other things. And I had a lot of adults always like my aunt and uncle Joe who stepped in. So even though it wasn't ideal, it wasn't even people who look like me. I somehow, by the time I was 15 or 16, it started to go, it's not ideal. It's not leave it to be and you're stressed out in a different way about security, but there's some pretty you have a lot of assistance and a lot of support around you so i remember feeling like my junior year i sort of got put in this bubble it felt really clear i mean i live my senior year kind of a safety bubble yeah like

maybe it would be if somebody it would almost be like getting put into, yeah, a protective bubble. A protective bubble. Yeah. Cool. So I was grateful. Like if I could be on the team,

I'd have a coach. Sometimes he'd take me to eat after practice because I'd be hassling with my mother. And he's like, this is great. He's like, he'd go, you know,

dad, I'm a Gabby. Just get along. And I just be like, okay. But I remember inside feeling like you're lucky this person's spending an hour with you. There you go.

And committing and investing in you. So gratitude came before the freedoms that you had. So there's a little bit of a clue there maybe. And if you're speaking to, you're holding an emblem, whether you know it completely or not, for freedom and um both in time um and probably finances but we haven't got there but definitely in fear there's a freedom from that that you have and so like let's go right back to like how old are your

kids i have a 16 year old i have a 20 year old and i have almost a 29 year old yeah so i was thinking like a like a 25 year old or a 29-year-old. Like if you could speak to almost like one of your daughters who didn't live with you your whole life, but that age, and they say, I want more freedom. I feel anxious, and I want more freedom. And it would be too trite to say, just be grateful. It would be too trite, but it would be an important one.

Yeah. So how would you speak to that person? See, I think this is where I am confusing because I am very rigid in so many other ways. So it's like, know who you are, what's your strategy, how hard are you willing to work? When door opens over deliver? Like in certain ways, I'm so kind of forceful and rigid. Wait, hold on. Could you say those again? Yeah. So you can't, again, knowing who you are, what is it that you like, what's your strategy to get there? And if a door opens just a little bit over deliver. Okay. So those three steps, the reason I ask if you could say it again, because I didn't know if you were just riffing or those were really deep principles that matter to you, or you have great recall.

I have probably good recall, but it's just stuff I've thought about a lot. Yeah, right. I don't do talks where I give those three points, if that's what you want to know. No, yeah, good. Okay. So I think that this is now a bigger indicator of how you found some freedom. Know who you are. And I'm going to triple tap that. When you know who you are, nobody can take it away from you. When you really know who you are, when you know your purpose and you know who you are, you're a force to be reckoned with.

And then when you have a tribe, when you have a community of people who really know each other, who want to support each other's purpose, it's a force that is incredible. And so the person listening right now can do that work. They can go to work to really know who they are and to be very clear about their purpose and then be in a tribe or a community of people that are going to take care of each other. That's totally possible. So how did you come to know yourself? I've gotten to know myself through, well, certainly let's just start with athletics. Talk about some really good pressure. So, and I don't mean this in an unloving way. Surviving my childhood, you weren't going to, even as a kid, I think, and again, I have one kid who's most similar to me and I see it in her.

You couldn't leverage me. You couldn't negotiate. You couldn't leverage me you couldn't negotiate you couldn't threaten me didn't matter you weren't going to change how i really how i saw anything and and i'm talking like little kid were you hard to reach no no easiest person on the world in the world if i have a rapport with you and i respect you, but if, if you're trying to sell me or manipulate me or be passive aggressive or do any of that, it's not, it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not going to work. And, and did you have girlfriends? Yeah, you did. I did. Cause you, you, you have, you have a different energy than the boys playing one sandbox girls playing the other, unfortunately, you know, and, and we, we learned some really ridiculous lessons in these separate sandboxes yeah you know and like i know um yeah i mean

maybe it's going to get better i don't i i feel actually actually there's a little side narrative i feel like it's getting worse i don't feel like we're getting better at this um we talk about it like diversity of ideas and thoughts and people but i I just don't. I'm seeing a division and I'm nervous about that. It feels like an unzippering that could be pretty, like you've been in hyperbaric chambers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so when you open it too early, pop, right? Yeah.

Right. And so it feels like that's what, anyways, that's a side narrative but like because because of your your clarity and that force that you have and maybe i'll use this word the intolerance again for niceties for passive aggressive manipulation for um going along with the flow when it doesn't make sense what's the point back to your you know like that would be maybe harder to play in one sandbox than the other. And so I'm just wondering what it was like, like from a gender relation as you were growing up. I always was a guy's girl and a girl's girl because with women, I just take on the male

energy. Yeah. So it's no problem. Yeah. And if they get silly and I go, you're being silly. They're like, ha ha Gabby. Like I'm not offending them. Yeah. And I don't get wild like i'm not you know gonna i'm just gonna be like are you serious when you talk like that and they're just like you know like there's no

issue so it's always been good but i also think it's something that i refined once i got away from athletics i had to placate being on a team and then try getting attention and being on a team. There was a lot of dynamics I was trying to manage. Yeah. That's actually a tricky one. Yeah. Right. When it was Mia Hamm.

You and me are probably. Yeah, we were the same exact time. Yeah. You and me are probably had that same challenge because she was one of the first. It was like, wait, well, and she's one of the best I ever played. Well, and she shut it down. I knew Mia very well. We're exactly the same.

Yeah. And similar, similar, you live in similar geographic areas. So it would make sense as well. But so she would shut it down. You know, both Mia and I were with Nike at the same time. And I would just see her do interviews and say, well, it's a team sport. And she, she, I didn't shut down kind of the external attention because I understood it as important, not only for me and what I was trying to accomplish in my business, but for my sport. And so I would try to, I always did pretty well with my teammates.

It was usually, you know, some of the other people on the tour, but with me, I just used to see her almost not only shut it down but kind of shrink on purpose until she played. And it was always really interesting to witness because I was uncomfortable, but she looked uncomfortable in those environments. Oh, yeah. I hid it more. I think that you – I don't know, you guys wrestled with the same stuff. And both of you are really important for like female power. She was like, listen, I know you want to keep passing the ball, but I'm here to score.

And you were like, yeah, I'm going to model and be a savage competitor. Like there's something really special about that combination that was rare. And so, yeah, it was there. And actually I hate to say it. It was sort of like all hands on deck. What's it going to take to move the sport ahead? And it was like,

great. That card will move it up half a percent. Let's do it. You know, to me it was just, uh, women's sports is tricky unless you're a tennis player and you're really good at tennis. The rest is a hustle beyond.

And I have a whole bunch of theories about it. Who inspires you in life right now? Laird inspires me in a way because i see behind everything and i haven't seen anyone who's more dedicated to what they do i just haven't i mean mcafree is very dedicated to what he does but he's like 27 years old and obviously lair can do it longer but i the the But the genuine love and willingness to just pursue this thing for real, not because anyone's watching, and then to be willing to show up. So you're trying to be the best and to really show up, change light bulbs, drive kids to school, really show up in all the unsexy ways i've watched it for 28 years so i i am genuinely um i i'm inspired because i know all the flaws i know the cracks and it's like no this is person is trying to do good stuff how well do you know carrie wall shennings i know carrie very well yeah yeah um carrie has very well she has spoken so highly of you for so long

that like um and i see what she sees oh well she's she's a whole other killer oh she oh my god yeah she's a killer like she is not but you can't you can't do five olympic games no metal at everyone four gold and one bronze, and be casual about anything. And people don't know the price for that. The deep, deep price. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Sounds like you do.

I just had a different way of doing it. Which was? I just wanted everyone to understand. I would work harder than them. I was going to earn it. You weren't going to give them any room. I was going to just try to hit every mark and do all the stuff. And I should have just said F off and just done my job.

I'm doing my program. But I was young. You know, listen, I turned pro at 22. And again, you go back to appreciating being there. I was very late to the game. Volleyball? Yeah. I was in Cary, who's groomed her whole life. Carrie Walsh. Yeah. I, I, I was so late to the game that I'm

like, what do you mean I get to play that? Like when I went to college, if you took, I had eight freshmen out of 12 when I came in to Florida state. So my coach was like, some of these girls have to actually play. We're like, yeah, okay. If you would have seen me at two a days at 17, you would have thought which one of these may not make it. And I have records at Florida state that still stand. You would have definitely not put your money on me. You would not have. No, I was so green and like, okay. Were you an outside hitter? No, middle. You were middle. Yeah, but I'm a true middle. That's where they put the newbies in.

That's the only thing is I'm a real middle. You've got a lateral. Yeah, I'm just a real middle. Like everything about me is perfect for being a middle. So it was the right fit. But the point is, is I was always like, oh, maybe no one will know that I barely know what the hell is going on. I'm just going to listen, be intuitive, and work super hard.

And so I was really trying to stay out of the way. And I remember I came to California and I got drafted. I played doubles. I was a practice dummy for Holly McPeak and a couple others because I knew them here and there. A legend. And then the fours came out. I got drafted right away.

Let me tell you, very good game for an indoor player to transition to beach. The fours. Excelled right away. Yeah. At one point, I think I was offensive player of the year three years in a row. You were just by the net the whole time. Yeah. And I just, I listen.

You say, hey, Gabby, try to do that. And I'd be like, okay. You know, like I really would try. And I love the game and I love being on a team and I loved all of it. When you think about different forms of intelligence, we've got physical intelligence, we've got emotional intelligence, we've got intellectual intelligence, social intelligence. There's many forms, right? So it's not just the one form. Do you feel like you have a physical intelligence? Like your body makes sense to you?

Yeah. I wouldn't say I'm around a lot of heavy duty athletes. I would say I'm a good athlete. Okay, so you wouldn't say that's where my genius lies? Not even close. Okay, would you go emotional, social, intellectual? I think my emotional and social intelligence is pretty high. Yeah, okay.

And I can read stuff pretty well. I can feel people and see them. And that probably came from being hyper vigilant you as a survival tactic yeah how do you do it like how do you sense if someone is full of it or safe or honest and curious versus like bombastic and like how do you what happens inside of you to be able to navigate that this goes back to to having no expectation around myself to not covering myself with niceties or formalities or being told you should be nice or be a certain way so i'm guided ultimately by my internal compass that that feels good i'm going

to move towards that that doesn't feel good there you go um and really and then you and then remember i met laird at 25 years old so i'm now have a partner that not only is that way encourages me and supports me for trusting that so i didn't that didn't get beat out of me in my adulthood. It got actually only reinforced that the way someone's eyes are moving, you know, the vibration off of them. Does it feel good? Doesn't it feel good? And sometimes it's just as simple as that. It doesn't mean I have to attach a bunch of meaning to it or try to figure out what it is that I don't like about them.

I just have to understand, is this good or not? And I really encourage my daughters, and they're all very much like that. Yeah, so you're an instrument for information. You're not judging, critiquing. No, because that kills you because your filter, that's the other thing. I don't want to put my filter. It's like if I have a friend talking to me about a situation, I don't want to put my filter on. I want to hear them and just hold space and maybe bring up ideas that will help them navigate whatever it is they're trying to figure out. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into

bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab.

I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters.

If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. It's a really cool moment in my relationship with my wife. We've been together since we were 25 as well.

And, or we got married at 25. We were dating much younger. And there's a point in our relationship where she said, I was like, hey, you want to go out with these people? And like our friends or whatever. And at one point she's like, you know, Mike, you can go. I just, I just don't like it. I go, what happened? She goes, I don't know.

I'm just in a place now where like, I don't like how I feel. I feel like I'm constantly on guard, kind of getting like looked at sideways. And, you know, and it was really hard, like, well, what do I do now? Cause I want to hang with my wife. She doesn't feel great with the, is it them? Is it her? Like, how do I navigate that? And the greatest thing I've done is just be like, okay, well, let's just go hang out. Yeah. And the tension part was like, no, let me fix that. Let me try to. And so what you just said that Laird did for you early on was like, keep listening. Keep listening.

That's really cool. Yeah. So I think I was already. That's probably part of why I chose him, right? Yeah. It's because he is that, you know, he's very much in his natural self. And so that's been helpful. Wait, speak to that.

Are you in your natural self? Less. Than him? Oh, yeah. He's so brave. And I don't mean on waves. He is. Emotionally, he's way braver than I am.

He is so faith oriented. Again, I do think some of it is masculine, you know, sort of not overthinking things down the road, but someone who spent a lot of time in nature has a relationship, even a sort of a spiritual relationship that is really truly faithful. Like I've seen it in play and it's somebody who also will just show you perfectly like – and even if it's wrong. See, that's the other thing is I don't – is it pride? Is it ego? I don't know. It's probably pride.

I never wanted to get caught being – like I used to – I used to – Joe Blair taught me to apologize. I never wanted to have to apologize to anyone because I didn't trust people. I didn't learn how to apologize until i was an adult oh yeah you go to somebody hey i blew it i'm sorry and they go okay i couldn't do that with the people around me they weren't safe oh right because they use it against you they just weren't kooks so i was like i'm not apologizing to you even if i am wrong right but if somebody's like that you respect and admire you know and you learn how so quickly to just say i i didn't mean to say it that way or i'm sorry or i'm you know i said i was you know

i didn't give you the right information whatever yeah but laird is the one who taught me how to apologize so he's just kind of here open and you know sometimes i see him and i go i feel protective of him yeah and i'm like you know you're very like transparent all the time and he's like I know I'm free isn't it great and I'm like but sometimes you know I'm like I want to remind him like you're almost sometimes you're in a public like you're a public person and you're in these environments where it's like yeah and how do you guys manage I want to go back I'm not losing the thread on how you develop that sense of self. You know, you're basically your philosophy.

It's the leaning in, number one, just moving towards things. But knowing yourself, because you have to be in reality also. So I could say, you know, I really would like to be a singer, but I can't sing. So the other part of that strategy, if someone's listening and they say, hey, yes, I really would like to be a singer, but I can't sing. So the other part of that strategy, if someone's listening and they say, hey, yes, I have this other calling. Well, what is it? Is it that you hate what you're doing or is there something else you want to do? And something interesting I heard Neil Strauss, who's our author, told me is that if you really think there's something you want to pursue for real, because sometimes it's doing for the sake

of doing, not worrying about the outcome, right? So it's like parallel path. What does that look like? Invest some time, see if you can get that thing rolling. And if that train starts moving, great. Then you can go from one to the next. But I think a lot of people give lip service to, yes, I want to do this other thing. And they're not actually willing to do what it takes. So that you're speaking like that, not willing to do what it takes. That's like the current generation that I'm concerned about. Oh, yeah. The way that I've done approach my life is that I got this really early image of, it was a very successful entrepreneur.

And he said, Mike, you want to do a lot in life. And I said, I do. And he said, all right, I'm going to encourage you to ride a lot of horses. He said, keep your, you're going to ride one at a time. You live one ass, ride one at a time, but keep your hands on this kind of pack of horses. You're going to realize that one of them is a stallion. Okay. Some of them are going to be donkeys. You didn't pick the right one. But just keep feeling.

There's a lot of things that you want to do. Those are your horses. And then the ones that really start getting some natural momentum and they seem, you pick this stable of horses, like ride that one a little bit. You don't let go of the other ones. You might really like the donkey, but it's not going to take you really far, but like, you don't have to let go of it. But you know, so that I, that image, you know, the, which one is the wild Mustang? Yeah. You know, like really, um, I love horses. I grew up on a farm with some horses, and some ponies um so like it really stuck it seems like that's something that you've done is that there's lots of things that you have your

your hands into there's and so let's list them right now there's a laird superfood which is the business which is a coffee creamer business that we took public actually in 20 and that's our congrats yeah cpg products maybe should stay private but that's for another day i guess technology products should go public oh god consumable goods is oh it was this was a tough well no it's great but it's such an again another education we went through the whole thing we did a road show we did a traditional ipo again when with laird and i our neighbors are when we moved in malibu, one's a lawyer, one's a, they probably were like, who are these two people moving in next door?

Yeah. Why do they have a big pool and lots of weights and people screaming on the weekends? I mean, you know, so I think both Laird and I are like, oh, this is kind of an interesting, you know, when are we going to do an IPO? So, okay. So we have Laird Superfood, which I love this business. I really like the turmeric, the turmeric creamer. Yeah. Nice job on that. Thank you.

Yeah. I was telling one of your colleagues that I use it in water, warm water. I don't mix it with coffee or tea. I just use it. So you have like almost like a golden milk. That's it. Yeah. I really like it. I like really nice job on it. Yeah. It's great. And we, you know, we try to really, we've got some very specific guardrails. So ingredients is number one, and that makes it even tougher. And that's the thing I want to remind people. If you are trying to do something and you're committed to doing it right, you have to commit

to doing it right all the time. And it is a really interesting thing when you look at yourself pondering, for example, like we don't use natural flavors. There would have been a few instances along the way that it would have just made things a lot easier and quicker. And it's always fun to jump out and watch yourself even think about it. Like, oh, well, would it be that big of a deal? It's the tension. Like I have the same tension.

Like we're trying to scale some products that we have, but we got to keep the soul and the sustenance. And to do it with speed, like it's really hard to do. And if you're principle-based and you're really clear, we are not sacrificing the soul and substance. It might take us longer. We might not be able to scale the way we want to. And if we, so there's like we built an online course on how to work from the inside out and trade in your mind.

But we're very clear, like, look, there's some compromises we had to make. This will get you 75% of the way there. But there's a whole bunch of other work that's going to be needed to supplement it. And so as long as we know that we can't boil the ocean, I feel okay about it. Now, that's different than a consumer product. But it isn't in a way, because we're just doing what we're doing, right? And you sort of go, hey, like for years, we didn't have a vanilla creamer because the harvests were bad. So the cost of vanilla, real vanilla was too expensive from Madagascar. So we couldn't, it's the number

one flavor. And if you don't use natural flavors, it doesn't punch in the back of your palate the way everything does in our grocery store so i think when you also ask me about success this to me is tied into success when i when laird and i and let me tell you it's not always easy to work with your partner but when we look at each other we have a deep respect for one another that's awesome because we know we're not cutting corners individually and then collectively that's great yeah and so i think that is more successful to me than like hey you know there was another hundred million in sales or whatever so i think it's it's also like a weird kind of self-control you have to have and know where your chinks are. This is a big one for me about people who are wanting to go off and do something different.

You know, the powers that be in the world, right? There's only these forces. Is it, you know, is it good? Is it bad? Is it dark? Is it light? Is it, you know, evil? Is it whatever?

I think we all have these little spaces, gaps. So it could be greed. It could be, for me, it could be wanting security. Other people could be control, power, sex, lust, food, whatever it is. I think the other part of this for me is I think I have tried, and I understood this very young too at 15. You will get taken down by the thing that you're willing to do anything for. And so be careful with that.

That's cool. And so when fear or control would kind of come in, I'm like, you can't make decisions from that place. You can honor that you're feeling that way. But I think it's also important for people or approval or people going, oh, that's amazing, attention, whatever. So I think that's another thing that has really been important as I try to navigate things.

I love that you're speaking to that because I so recognize early on, like I look back, why did I grind so hard at like this thing that I'm doing? Why did I push that hard? And I needed to use that vehicle to to be seen so success was yeah um competence at one stage just that i really knew some stuff that i'm talking about like sports psychology in particular that and i almost lost everything for it. My- Why do you say that? Because I sacrificed my relationship with my wife. And so seven years in to our marriage, and this is the love of my life,

she says, you gotta go. I can't be me in this relationship anymore. Yeah. We worked it out. Yeah. It was really hard. Been there, been there. Have you?

Yeah. Really? Sure. Yeah. Any couple that's been together, I think more than 15 years. Wait, so I. Really? Sure. Yeah. Any couple that's been together, I think, more than 15 years. Wait, so I had to move out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You guys separated.

In 2000, we did this. Yeah, but go ahead. So you moved out. Did you have kids yet? No. Oh, good. So you're two years ahead. This was 2002.

2001, 2002. You got to go through some of this. Come on. How many years into marriage was it? Only five years into marriage. Seven years together yeah seven for us and so so i i i just over indexed on work and it was selfish like really really but don't you think you thought you were doing the work for the two of you and the family

the fact that you know that of course yeah like that's that was the excuse and The fact that you know that. Of course. Yeah. Like that was the excuse. And that was my narrative. And she's like, yeah, that's all good, but it's really for you. Well, she knew you better. So she's like, you say that. I appreciate it. I appreciate like how we're living. Yeah.

But you're not home. Like, what do you want me to do? And then when you are home, you're kind of like too heavy, like you're too serious. And so I am pretty intense. But like, so I love that you're just at least introducing that relationships are hard. Knowing yourself is hard. And there is real work to do. How did you guys navigate that space? Well, when you almost break up and again, Laird is the emotionally, I always say he's the heart of the house. And to be clear, you had kids at this point? No, when we were going to break up? Yeah.

No, no, that's why it happened then. I mean, I have my stepdaughter, but we had not had the next two yet. And so Laird was the one, because he knew I was scared. Pretty much. I tried to sabotage things because at the end, I was going to feel more comfortable isolated because that's where I had been mostly. And so he-

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yeah. And he said. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yeah. And he said to me. Let me go back to familiar. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Right.

That's safe somehow. And the thing is loving and then having a family. It's all risk. Because you love them so much. Love who? You know, if you have kids or your partner. Right. Yeah.

So it's all risk. They could leave. or your partner right yeah so it's all risk they could leave they could die like it's just risk and so for somebody like me who's like yeah i've been through that i've known you know so i i chickened out and um and i wasn't a great uh i didn't have a i was always stoic i wasn't combative that's not a good formula you know and so laird we sort of we broke up we lived in different places easy to do when he's from hawaii and i was in california and we used to go back and forth he just went to hawaii went to california easy and he was came through and he sort of basically in a nutshell was like are you you know do you want to try or not are you like sort of done with this that you're doing and uh i remember thinking that um it was worth it and

that i would be different that i wouldn't do it the same way did you guys have a rachel and ross from the friends type of breakup where you know um do you know what i mean by that no okay rachel and ross from the friends yeah okay so that like, wait, you did what with who? We were on break. No, no, no, no. We were not on break. Oh, we were broken up. I mean, Laird, he was being the gentleman and said, get divorce papers.

Because one thing about Laird, he's not a halfway guy. So if we're in, we're in. If we're out, then we're out. Yeah, right. So we had already, I had filed. He goes, you do it because it, you know, sort of like honorable or something. And then California, you have to wait a few months. And that's when he said, you know, are you done?

Yeah, right. Like, let's be clear. With all of whatever it is that you're, you know, doing. Yeah. And I was like, yeah. And actually, we got through another hurdle years later because Laird was battling alcohol, you know, wine in bed by 830, but that he had his own thing. So, you know, we've definitely learned how to dance, but I'd say we're a very harmonious

couple because we can't afford not to be. How do you manage the public life? Like you're both public figures and is your relationship public. I mean, we're very transparent. Like I've written books and stuff because I'm not gratuitous. So I think there's a line of like, of course, privacy,

but I don't like when people, if you do interviews and people go like, how are the girls? And I go, amazing. It's like, Hey, I don't know.

I'm a parent. Like it's, I'm upside down every other day like of course and that's what it is um but i think both laird and i are not really interested in false advertising we're trying to balance it as much as we can about being truthful about who we really are even in forward-facing ways but of course with keeping what are what are some of the things that you have brought forward that you feel are important for people to know so they can live better

but that was really hard to bring forward? About the marriage? Yeah. Well, certainly that we almost got divorced was not easy. I don't think that that's hard. I think the alcohol was hard. I mean, not as much for me. I think Laird, because he was literally performing at one of the highest levels at his sport and wrestling that.

And I think he went through a series of like also feeling guilty for being successful because he wasn't groomed for that. So I think he had a weird kind of shame for somehow, you know, being celebrated. Yeah. And especially in the surf culture so yeah i grew up surfing as well and so definitely knew all of that he's doing it's a weird little thing this is what brought me to sports psychology is that there's he'll recognize this and so will you there's the core surfing and then competitive surfing yeah i could do it in the core thing like just go put yourself in a heavy situation don Don't talk about it. But then as soon as you've got stickers on your board, you've got people taking pictures, you've got judges or critiques or whatever, that's a whole different thing. And there's an ostracizing from that culture if you're getting attention. And he felt it at like 10x of

what I felt it, but I know exactly what that's like. So there's a, like a, who do you think you are? Well, and also you have to remember the thing about Laird that's so interesting is Laird is literally one of the most loving people that I know, but he is definitely not a politician. So when he's, people don't realize like when Laird goes to surf, that's all like, even if he goes out, he's not, he's not, he is going to be very polite to people. He's going to let people go and do stuff, but he's going to go and try to catch as many waves as he can because he's also there to train. Even right now, he is not there to yuck it up and hang out. And it's so funny when I realized that about him.

It's like paddle, go in, paddle, catch a wave, paddle, come back. Like if it's down funny when I realized that about him. It's like paddle, go in. Paddle, catch a wave. Paddle, come back. Like if it's down, he's out. And then you take big waves. You talk not competing. You say, hey, I'm going to go do my own thing. Oh, I'm doing this weird thing over here. We're going to tow. We're going to stand up paddle.

I'm going to foil. He's such an innovator. Yeah, so he's more of an artist. Yeah, for sure. But he grew up in Wainiha Valley in kawaii so he's around some of the toughest guys he he was the odd kid out getting punked bullied in a really aggressive way you know if you just take the howley thing yeah consideration yeah so he had to be tough this kind of other layer that could be misconstrued because he sort of feels i think

he has said to me many times, you know, there's a lot more waves I want to ride. So he's a guy, it's that and his family. And then he's occasionally obliges us all with like, hey, you have this meeting, you have a board call, you got to, we're going to go do the shoot. He's like, okay. Okay. Yeah. But that's what he's doing. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the

conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery, it's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive.

I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee, so if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community right now, they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FindingMastery at i irestore.com slash findingmastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at irestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best.

Physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now. And it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot. Something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back?

Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com, plus an extra $50 off when you use the code findingmaster at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. I got a funny story about you guys. A friend of mine just

yesterday, he didn't, he didn't know that we were were you and i were going to meet today and he sent me a text and it was him and laird oh and they were sweating and so this gentleman is he's six foot nine he's a huge human and um amazing he's a professional and um and so um he said i had a great day he he assumed that we knew each other just because of surfing what and i said that's awesome. I'm actually meeting with his wife tomorrow. And he says, I was going to sign up for her program, but I was afraid to. Yeah, I know. Sometimes. So you scared the six foot nine alpha competitive. I try to be very loving as a coach. Yeah. Well, you didn't send that signal to him. Somehow he was afraid to sign up. Yeah, that's good. I think that's good because my whole thing is to deliver information in a very androgynous.

Because, you know, it's interesting learning to coach men as a woman. There's a very specific way to do it. It would be the same way as being a female boss. It's not personal. I'm not going to wait until I'm upset to express myself. I'm going to nip it in the butt right away. It's going to be pretty matter of fact. And also what I've learned is I don't need to press harder to exert my will.

When you're leading something, your job is just to create the space for everyone to be successful. And I think when you come with that tone, they know that. I'm not just there trying to exert my will. I don't care about that. I'm just trying to control myself. I even have it with my kids. I'm not trying to exert my will on you. That doesn't work. I'm going to try to be a good example. But when we get in this space, this is what we're doing. I'm just here to make sure this is how it happens. And I'm on your side.

And I think once you learn that, and being tall helps, you know, when you can put your hand on someone's shoulder and go, can you please, can we do it like this? Or we're going to do it like that. Great. Just super matter of fact. And that has really helped me. Being around all these men has certainly helped me. And being around sports.

What do you do in that framing? What do you do when your kids, I don't know, they're not taking care of some basics. Like, I mean, we could be specific. They're putting their dirty dishes in the sink and they're not. Okay. So how do you help navigate that? Well, obviously they're at a different age. Sometimes at this age, I'll be like, are we still really talking about this? But I mentioned Byron Katie early. One of my girls went through a really hard time many years ago. And I went to Katie because I needed new tools.

I did. I just didn't have enough tools to. She's rad. Yeah. As a meditation teacher, like as a beautiful soul. Yeah. Just the framing of things. And for whatever reason, it really clicked with me.

And someone likened it to this. I'm a hammer. I can hammer down, hammer through through i'm good all day long and then it's like yeah but you got to wash the windows like you need a new tool dummy you know it's like that's great that is okay said that or somebody said no somebody mentioned that and i thought that resonates with me so i went to katie and she said to us you know sweetie the good news is to learn about my daughter. And it was some pretty heavy stuff. She's either going to choose to do it or she's not.

And she goes, and you know what the bad news is. She's either going to choose to do it or she's not. So I think there was a moment for me as a parent where I thought, I'm going to listen. And we're going to, especially when they're young, have some basic boundaries. As they get older, good luck. I'm going to listen. I'm not going to solve your problems. I do ask permission to ask questions or to make a suggestion.

And sometimes I get shut down. Sometimes I don't. And I'm going to be the best example. Use the word adult earlier. I strive. I would like to be the best example. Use the word adult earlier. I strive. I would like to be a good adult. And when I say that, not only for my kids to go like, somebody's steering the ship over here. And you know what?

She did an okay job. You know, she showed up. And I know that. Like, I show up in all the little ways, not the huh ways. And then the other thing is because we have a younger generation that there aren't a lot of people acting like good adults. We have the polititional, all that theater that they have on the TV and that people don't have any discussion. They don't have any polite discord. They have none of that. We have to all agree or not. And so I thought the other thing I'd like to do is just be a good adult because that's what we're doing right now.

And if we can help usher these next groups in. And so for the dishwasher, if they're younger, it's like, hey, even if they go back upstairs or whatever, it's like, hey, can you do it again? And I used to tell my kids, like, I here all day like i have my i take my vitamins i will be here all day my my creamer but one thing katie said to me yeah because i used to be like you know um she'd say i'd say the socks the socks the socks are always on the floor katie all right the socks how much are you gonna talk about the socks and she goes oh sweetie'd say, the socks, the socks, the socks are always on the floor. Katie, the socks, how much are you going to talk about the socks? And she goes, oh, sweetie, you pick up the socks. She goes, you're the one who wants them up. And she goes, then you have the joy of the clean floor.

And then your joy resonates through the house. And she goes, if you want to change your environment, change yourself. It's one of the most foundational principles. And I'm like, this is not going to work. We need to force this, right? But I've experimented for the last seven years with this. And overall, because at the end, I also know how I would respond. Nobody made me do anything.

And so sometimes I'll ask my girls. I mean, my youngest is the only one that I have to have these conversations with. Is it reasonable what I'm asking? And she'll say, yeah. I go, then can we fight about other things and not this? Can we use this energy for something else to disagree on? My wife has this very similar approach where she says, you know, like, does this seem reasonable? And like Grace and my son

will say yes. And then she'll say, let's not be average and just keep fighting about this thing. That's it. Like, let's argue about other things

that are more complicated. Let's pick juicier things. Like, you want to stay out till what time? Okay. You know? So I think for me,

but that started a long time ago. That's cool. That foundation with them. Yeah, but it's still a thing that kicks my ass every day. It is legit a real job. And I love them so much. And they make choices I would never do.

And I'm like, ooh, that's going to be so hard. And I have finally accepted they will do it the way they're going to do it. And so all I want to do is encourage them then to do that the best that they can. As we're rounding third base here, what a great conversation. Thank you for the way that you bring yourself into this conversation and the thoughtfulness of how you answer the questions authentically your way. And I'm wondering if you've got a couple quotes or lyrics from poems or songs or whatever that just kind of leap forward in this moment. It could be your quote,

it could be somebody else's. No, one of the quotes that kind of floats around our house kind of monthly is never let your accomplishments be greater than your dreams. And I think for any person living, we're here so short and we're all striving. You know, I want to be the CEO. I want to be the all-star. I want to win a world championship. It's so fleeting. And once you hit it, it's like, okay, now what? And okay, how are you going to sustain it? You're going to do it again. Um, weren't you that volleyball player? Like, I mean, you know, it sometimes success has its own kind of bummer when you go, well, that's over and now I'm doing something else. So I think for me, I like that quote is because if I can just appreciate and learn from what I see in the rear view and be like body of evidence like Ryan Holiday talks about, I know I can learn something new.

So it gives me that confidence. And oh, that was great. That was fun but to actually keep paying attention here so that i'm in your body keep creating and so that you're not like my best years were behind me it's like hey this is an exciting time right now we're just getting going yeah and i'm not 25 and i'm not and that's all okay i don't jump the way i used to jump how do you deal with the depreciating asset of beauty yeah oh beauty yeah that's i don't know it was a big part of your identity for a long time yeah but it wasn't it was the i'm not saying it's not now i'm not saying you're not beautiful i'm not sensitive don't worry

yeah um you know i want to be i want to be really clear like you you had a lot of attention yeah for that part of you. It never landed. Maybe you still get it. It never landed for me. So you didn't metabolize life. Nah. I understood it.

I played it like a chess piece. It was more shrewd. It's probably a pretty significant thing for you. What? To not have to deal with it as a – to not have it flash in your face at some point. Do you want to know the best line that people will say to you? And they don't mean it. Yeah.

And that's the other great thing. You still look pretty good. Oh my God. For your age or whatever. Yeah, for sure. It happens all the time. It's not about me. Yeah.

And that's the other thing I've learned. What people pull off of me is they're pulling what interests them. It's not about me. And so I'm okay with that. I think strength and tiny, a little bit of wisdom, contribution. It's like I used to joke, and this frames it up pretty concisely. I have guys that I work with, and technically technically i never have anyone who works for me but let's just say technically in the hierarchy they worked for me and they're younger in their 30s or whatever and i'm like i could care less if they want to sleep with me i'm their boss and i'm not here i did that the biological signaling over here shiny hair do the thing

i have the girls. They're here. And as long as Laird is engaged and interested, that gives me a lot of power. And it isn't about I need Laird's approval or desire, but it does elevate and bring me so much kind of confidence to go, hey, I have somebody who is their eyes twinkle and they do sort of seem interested. And it is what it is. Time is rolling. What are we going to do? And I think that's another thing I do very well, meaning I'm not going to fight things that you can't fight. It's like gravity, time, what are you going to do? I'm not going to torture myself. Amen. I've loved this conversation. Thank you so much. I don't know if I gave anything to your audience, but I would suggest if they really have a burning desire to do something new,

get that strategy. And like you said, sort of navigate all those horses. But I think people think that you're just successful every day. I'm successful so seldomly. I really am. I mean, every day is just trying to tape the pieces together. More like time bound was this conversation. Were you successful in this conversation? For me, I guess it's if I bring value.

If I didn't bring any value, I don't want to waste anyone's time. So how would you know if you were successful? I wouldn't. I would just say that I would show up and try to be as present as I could be in this moment and then just let it be. Yeah, that's such an easier way to navigate. Like I did my job well. I was present. I navigated.

I listened to myself. I didn't get run over by the lights or the questions or the pace or any of that. And if you can like make those small little micro adjustments to keep coming back to being you, whatever that means. It feels pretty good. It feels like you did that here. Oh, good. Well, you're very, I mean, come on, your questions, you probably make all your guests look very good and thoughtful. It's just, I'm curious about like how you're really ticking. And if you're not going to try to prop something up, it's not real, then it's really easy. Yeah, no, that doesn't doesn't work that's a that's a house of cards we call that paint yourself in the corner that's exactly what and i don't want to live there

that is a nightmare it's very clear that you're not doing that so where can folks find you your your podcast is awesome oh thank you very yeah it's originally named the gabby reese show and uh and uh if people like coffee and creamers, I do really think we have a wonderful product at Laird Superfood and we have XBT. I will say our pool training and some of the things that we're doing there is good, especially if people are into athletics for a long period of time, because it's really nice for your joints and it's a way to be ballistic and be dynamic, but not kill yourself. How many of those do you do? Like you do retreats, right? Yeah, we do a few a year,

but I have athletes all the time. I had Christian McCaffrey at my house this morning working on some stuff. Yeah. You know, you just see people. And for me, you know what? That's the other thing I would say. Always have people around you that inspire you

and teach you and like you, keep you connected to the world because I think it just makes life a lot richer. So I see people that are really working hard and trying, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's good. I've worked five Olympic Games with athletes, been around best in the world in every sport, Seattle Seahawks, the NFL for nine seasons. He stands out amongst the ones that move. Like I haven't seen, it was him

and a gentleman named Percy Harvin. I don't know if you know Percy's like as a wide receiver, but watching McCaffrey just warm up. Yeah, well, that's it. It was like on the sideline, it was like 32 adult men like going, whoa. That's it, the art. Yeah.

It's poetry. And this is a kid who, relentless, right? So this is somebody, and that's why we like it, because we go, it's work, it's just relentless pursuit. That's hurt, fix that, do that. People don't also realize, you know, NFL guys, they're dealing with performing at the highest level and they are hurt all the time. And so, you know, it's just inspiring to see people who go, that's not working.

Let me do something new and just grinding. He is that. Yeah. He's so graceful the way he moves with all that power. It's like a supple power. It's totally. It's really cool. Yeah.

All right. Okay. So the Gabby reese show yep social uh gabby reese reese's r-e-e-c-e and uh layered superfoods yeah layered superfood i mean listen if people you i could bore you but that will help you every morning yes that's i have you know what i where i use it like midday so i don't really yeah i use it midday it's like as the kind of uh caffeine, but I want something warm. A little treat. Yeah. It's really a good treat. Yeah. Well, thank you for your time

and for your thoughtfulness. And I, I really appreciate the conversations that you're having here. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast

and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.