Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Leadership, Forgiveness, Authenticity and More | Ask Me Anything (AMA) #2 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

We got some really excellent questions from our community last week. I love the deep thought, curiosity, and authenticity you all brought to the table.In our second AMA, I answer questions like:When things go sideways at work—and I still have a business to run and bills to pay—how do I think clearly?How do you put a high performance mindset lens on forgiveness? When something's been wrongfully done to you, how do you let go of it?What are the most interesting or unexpected ways you've seen leadership evolve over the past two to three years?And more... :)We're excited to be filming these AMAs more frequently. What questions would you like Dr. Mike to answer? Leave your questions for the next AMA on the YouTube comments section or email [e-mail]._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Dr. Michael Gervais by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And welcome to another Ask Me Anything. I really love engaging with our community and getting the chance to answer some of your questions. The deep thought and the curiosity, the authenticity, and the vulnerability that go into these questions being asked is noted. It's appreciated. If you'd like to submit a question for future episodes, you can email info at

findingmastery.net, or you can leave your questions in the comment section on YouTube. Now, with the ambiguity in the world and the headwinds that we are facing, psychology could not be more important right now. If you want to have a high-performing life, you need psychological skills and practices that are fundamentally integrated into your life. I hope that this format can be a starting point for you to explore some of the psychological concepts and perhaps think about things in a slightly different way. But creating real change in your life, that takes a deep commitment to doing the work, to know yourself, and to train your mind.

If you are finding value in this format, but want a deeper level of actionable training on some of the skills that we discuss, I really want to encourage you to check out our online psychological training course, where we've pulled together the best practices that interweave high performance psychology and well-being. We walk through 16 essential principles and skills for you to train your mind so that you can consistently perform toward the upper edges of your capabilities. And as a thank you for tuning into this AMA, you'll receive $50 off when you enroll in the Finding Your Best course. If you're interested in signing up for the course, just head to findingmastery.net slash course and enter the

code findingmastery at checkout. So again, a sincere thank you for tuning in. And with that, let's get right to your questions. Travis writes, I've recently listened to your podcast with David Goggins and Dr. Mark Brackett. Though I get these two are serving very different purposes in their lives, I cannot help but think about the differences between the Goggins approach to feelings and Dr. Brackett's approach to emotional intelligence. What are the similarities you see between the two of them? Similarities. Okay. It's a cool question because Goggins, you know, kind of oversimplify Goggins approach, which is like stuff it down, do it, you know, don't whine, don't complain, no excuses,

grind it out, you know, go do the freaking thing, deal with your emotions later, you know, or when you start to feel something that's going to get in your way, stuff it down, you know, so, you know, there's a time and place maybe for that. I don't resonate with it. You know, I don't, I don't want to be muted in my emotional experience in life. And the reason I'm going to say that is because early in my life, if we oversimplify emotions and we just pick four of them really quickly, there's emotion of anger, there's happiness, there's sadness and fear.

If you just think about those for just a moment, there's a wider range, but this is kind of like a very basic rudimentary approach, is that early in my life as a young adolescent male, I was permitted to do kind of the, almost all of the anger scale. But when I would be too angry, like there was a rage, that wasn't cool.

So if the scale one to 10 and 10 being rage, I had to back that down to like no more than like say a 7. Okay. On the happy scale, I could do a little bit happy. I could do a 1, 2, 3. But too much happy, it was like I wasn't serious. I was one of them that's like kind of airy, you know, like up in the clouds and not dealing with reality.

And like there's a softness that's not okay. So I learned that young. On the sadness, no, no, no, no, no. No, you don't do sadness. Stuff that down, right? A little bit of happiness, all of anger, no sadness. And then fear, what are you talking about? Stuff that down. You don't do

fear. So, and I don't think I'm that different than many people, certainly, you know, in the Western culture, like that would be almost like a pro-social way that you would raise a young boy. And so, and I'm not speaking to my parents, I'm speaking to like the community around me that would give me a certain clue about how to deal with emotions. So there's this limited range that I had as a young person, a little bit of happiness, plenty of anger, nothing else. So when Goggins says, toughen up, harden up, I'm like, I know that. I don't want to do that anymore. I want to go the distance he's going.

I'm not interested. So Goggins, love you. I really loved the conversation we had. And you opened up a real vibe about doing hard things. For me, I want to do the hard things in an enduring way in my life, but have wide range. I want to quickly work with emotions. I want to be incredibly proficient with how I metabolize and express and work with my emotions. Because to me, that feels much larger, much freer. It's like I want the container of my life, especially my emotional life, to be as big as it possibly can so that I don't feel constricted in any way. And so the other counter approach is like have great awareness of your emotions. And this is,

you know, the emotional intelligence work is be able to name them, you know, be able to have a way of working with them and have some speed with the way you work with it. And if you can do that for yourself and you can do that with other people, now you've created relationships with yourself and others that you're working with speed, with range in a dynamic way to be able to do hard things. And I'm far more interested in that approach. And I do, but I appreciate people that are like, you know, shut the fuck up and do the work.

And I don't want to hear from it. Like, grind it out. Like, I can appreciate that. I don't think it's healthy. It's not what I want to teach, you know, my son. It is. But there are times as an adult where it's like, you got to figure out how to navigate this. Because there's lots of emotions that are in place here.

For instance, I'm thinking right now of a world-class surfer. He's a big wave surfer. He's literally one of the three best in the world that is surfing giants. I'm talking 80 to 100 foot. You look at these things and you feel the earth around you shake as the wave crashes. And no reasonable person wants to be in that situation. But this gentleman I'm thinking of is so skilled that he's purposely putting them in that place. And there's a moment that most of the great big wave surfers talk about is that they understand

that they're purposely putting themselves in the most dangerous position they can be in, the most critical, the highest stakes environment, because that is required to be able to do the thing that they've committed to doing. And if they hesitate in that moment, if they're over flooded with emotions or don't have a way to work with the emotions, fear that they they're feeling, that they miss it. So to be able to work with emotions well when the external demands are real and intense and scary, you have to know how to work with them in less intense emotions. And this is why one of the practices of mindfulness and meditation are so important. You know, it's like sit on a pillow and know how to deal with

your emotions is far easier. It's still very hard than to be able to try to manage your emotions when it's quote unquote on. So, you know, pick your style. I'm more interested in range. And I think most people in our community vibe with that a bit too. And at the same time, I love you, Goggins. Like, you know, thank you for waking hard work up for so many people. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day.

What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough.

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davidprotein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. We have a question from a listener in Kenya. What are the most interesting or unexpected ways you've seen leadership evolve over the past two to three years? Oh, that's a cool question. Because over the last couple of years, leadership has changed a lot now. And the old model of like the industrial psychological model, which is show up, do your job, bang a hole into a piece of metal or whatever it might be. And, you know, it's, it's fortunate that you're here doing this job because this is how you're taking care of your family. But listen, I don't want to really hear it.

Well, the hangover from that is still seeping into modern work. And our workforce right now is exhausted. And it's exhausted not because the demands are so intense. We're exhausted because there hasn't been a shift from extraction to unlocking, and the extraction model is like, listen, show up, do your job, and be lucky that you're here, and I'm gonna pay you X dollars an hour,

and I'm gonna pull everything you got because this machine needs to be efficient. And if it's not efficient, you don't get to be here. Okay. The unlocking model is this idea that there's tremendous untapped resources inside of humans. And the modern leader is moving from the narrative I just expressed to how can I create the conditions for somebody to unlock the potential within? And those conditions are external conditions and internal conditions. So how can I invest in the people that have agreed to go on a shared mission together? How can I invest in their psychology?

Those are the internal. And then the externals, how do I create the external conditions where people can make decisions, move with autonomy and agility, where they know the power that they hold, they're trusted? How do we create those environments to move with speed and accuracy and for people to have the required psychological skills to flourish. That's what's happening right now. And that's elite sport is like 10 years ahead. And so about 10 years ago, this is exactly what started happening across world sport is great coaches are innovators and they're looking at the science and they're looking at kind of what

coming down the pipe for human performance and like finally like sports psychology is now more concrete and it's not weird because we're the the the the people before me in the field work their asses off to take great ideas into theory, into the laboratory, to have very concrete applied mechanisms that can hold up inside of working environments of performance. So we're here. And sport has been here for a while now. And so now big business is going, oh, wait, hold on. How are you doing that? Oh, it's not extraction? Well, there's always still some of that. You know, like there is a ruthlessness in big sport for sure.

But there is an over-rotation. There's a deep appreciation for the necessary skills for psychology to be invested. And that's what's really – so great leaders right now are making that pivot from extraction to unlocking, and they are investing in best practices in psychology to help people flourish. And flourishing, I'll be very concrete, is this unique intersection between the psychology of well-being and the psychology of high performance. So it's that intersection, stitching those two together, that is a massive unlock in business. And let's also be clear that the business environment

is where we spend most of our time. It's like the perfect delivery mechanism to change the world at scale, is to meet them where they sweat and where adult sweat is in business. And so if we can meet them there and create conditions, internal, external conditions for human flourishing, we just might change the world. And if we can do that,

human potential is not yet even close to being revealed. And if we can level up the psychological skills to meet the demands of the external world, we got shot. Because right now, humanity, I think we're suffering. I don't think we're just struggling. I think we're suffering. We're not even close to thriving. Anthony asks, knowing you work with some of the most respected leaders across sports and business, what topics are keeping you up late, interested and curious to dig into with your team? It's a good question, Anthony. The things that keep me up late at night are making sure that I am rock solid in two ways. Because these world-class business leaders and coaches are displaying so much trust and I feel an incredible responsibility to meet

that trust. And so the two ways that, that I think about a lot is, is my container vast enough to be able to stand fully grounded and present when other people's emotional experience is radically intense? Have I done enough of my internal work to reveal universal wisdoms and have it not just be something I read, but something that I fully have metabolized? So there's a depth and a width that I'm trying to make sure that is true. And so that's one. And the second thing that keeps me up is, based on that trust, is that making sure that the people that are providing that trust, that they are flourishing as well. And that means people in the Finding Mastery team,

and that means people in the companies that we're working with. Not only are they solving the business problems, not only am I showing up in a way that is of real service and with depth and breadth, but also are they, as an individual, thriving? So those are the things that I start to pay a lot of attention to. And the things that are less important, I think, to that but are parallel path is there's a bigger play that's happening.

And I'm not on the front lines of this, but I feel a connection and responsibility to it is that I was consulting with one of the large consulting firms, and it was a leadership team inside of one of these large firms. And they said, okay, we understand your position. We agree with the position of you helping enterprise companies unlock human potential. Totally, we are in line with it. However, we are being told by other companies, not to be named, but we are being told by other companies that have a fundamentally different philosophy. And that philosophy is next person up. We've got more people than we know what to do with, and we are not trying to create a condition of flourishing. We are going to win

this war through business. We are going to win the global war through business. It's like, wait a minute, hold on. So some of the large companies right now are way more powerful than governments are. The geopolitical multifaceted influence that big business has in many respects is really intense. There is a war inside of a war that's taking place that most of us are not familiar with. And the bet is, are you going to invest your money and time and resources to unlock potential? Or are you going to invest in outcomes at any means necessary almost? And so in the short run, those that bet on outcomes are probably going to be ahead. But we know that it's not the right thing to do, right? And is it sustainable? It doesn't seem that way to me.

So this is the thing underneath the thing. I'm not on the front lines of it, but I am helping companies lay a bet on unlocking. And there are other companies that are helping those enterprise companies lay a bet on pure outcome. And so can we strike that right balance between human flourishing and human thriving and the business thriving? If we do that, we end up changing the world in meaningful ways. I'm betting on it. I've seen it in sport.

I've seen it play out, you know, gold medals, world championships. I've seen it. It's doable. I think it's harder. But it's also, quote unquote, more right. And so those are a couple of ways, a couple of things that I think about, you know, what keeps me up at night. I've seen it on the world stage with some of the most herald championships like i this is how we worked at the seattle seahawks when

we won the super bowl it was like relationship based to help people flourish and we won the whole thing it can happen i've seen it with sati nadlla, CEO of Microsoft, one of the most significant companies on the planet right now, lead with, quote unquote, empathy and a mindset of growth and to have a very clear understanding that it is a purpose-driven, people-centered way to do business. And it's working. I've seen it on the Olympic stage where I've seen the tragedy of this on the Olympic stage. I'll start with that story is that there was a gal that I work with that she was on the podium, national anthem. She won the gold medal. Tears were rolling down her face and the whole world thought that like, what a moment, what an amazing moment she did it. And she walked off the podium.

And the first thing that she said to me was, I'm still miserable. She chased the outcome at all costs. And then when the outcome happened, there's still an emptiness and a hollowness. So I've seen that part of it too. And at the Olympic stage, I've seen people that are like ear to ear grinning because they're completely whole and there's an integrity about themselves. Whether they win or don't win. And I've seen both winning and not winning with that experience. So it's there. The question is, where do you personally lay your bet? Where do I lay my bet? And I'm clear where I'm laying mine. But it has to be consistent. It has to be world-class, because there's a war that's taking place. Dr. Tim asks, what comes first, the inner work of

the individual human or the development of the environment, a.k.a. the culture? Well, that's a cool question. What comes first? You know, helping the person have the inner skills or shaping the culture? Of course, the best answer is a yes and. Like wherever the natural momentum is to start in places that the person has ultimate control over. So you want to be able to influence the environment and set up those conditions, but it's multifaceted and it takes a little bit more time. So knowing that there's a time horizon on being able to shape an environment in an optimized way, a healthy way to support flourishing and to have that right tension and the right systems in place to help people navigate their inner life aligned with the

mission of the company. That's cool. It's powerful. It's a big chunk of work. But the inside out work is actionable right now. And so for me, when I think about the greatest lever that we can have is to create change now. And so it is available to you, to me, to Dr. Tim right now to influence the way that we think, the way that we breathe, the way that we work with emotions, the way we frame experiences, the sophistication in our awareness and the sophistication in our recovery. Like we can do that right now with a whole set of practices.

And then we can share those best practices with other people, create a small community that is holding each other to those standards and accountable to doing the internal work. Because people think so much that, like, I read a good psychology book or I listened to my minister or preacher or my parents or whatever it is that are wise. And I get it. I get my psychology. No, no, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about doing the work. If you go into a gym and you do physical training and you're fit and which means that, you know, your cardiovascular can handle some stuff. You can, you have enough strength to be able to lift what you need to lift. And you've fit, which means that your cardiovascular can handle some stuff. You have enough strength to be able to lift what you need to lift.

And you've got that right mobility, flexibility to be supple. And you're doing that work for it. And then you stop doing the work. How long does it take? A couple of weeks. Where you're like, wow, what has happened to my body? Like, it's not like it falls off a cliff, but that fine-tuned switched on capacity is now compromised. And that's because you're doing the work and then you stop doing the work. Okay, psychology is the same way.

Do the work. And that's not read another book. That sit your ass on a pillow and like train refocusing and train awareness through a mindfulness practice. It's being very clear about the breathing strategies that work for down regulation and increasing capacity. It's being very disciplined about how you speak with yourself, non-critically, but having a discipline about it and having a North Star about how you want to speak to yourself, how you want to really. So it's training. And the training

I'm talking about is like, I mean, if we start with 12 minutes a day, that's pretty good. Call that a minimal effective dose. It's okay. If you went to the gym for 12 minutes a day, probably not enough. So listen, if you start at 12 minutes or 20 minutes a day, somewhere in that range of doing internal based work, that has an incredibly powerful lever. And when you do it with other people, that lever can change any environment before you make those changes. If you can get a critical mass of people that are highly aware, they're working from the inside out, that in and of itself will change an environment.

So that's where I place the fulcrum for leverage. Great. I am the CEOulcrum for leverage. Great. I am the CEO of a startup tech company. My son was born with a life-threatening condition that requires attention. When things go into crisis mode, I still have a business to run and bills to pay. How do I think clearly when things go sideways? That's a good question because the essence that, if Mark was with us, what I would say, I would ask him a question like, Mark, what kind of life do you want to live?

And then Mark would have a response about it. And then from that, we would build what I would consider a plan or a program. So for me to just answer out of context, it's hard, right? Because each of us, we have a way that we want to live. And it's not for somebody else to say, oh, well, if you had these couple skills in place, then that's where you should focus on. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability

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Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Now, when you add love to the piece and family members and really caring for people, one of the key tensions is how do I spend my time? Because to birth a business,

it takes time and energy and deep commitment, focus and a team and hydrating and watering those relationships in meaningful ways. And to also do that at home means that we have to be great at relationships. So the first relationship begins with himself, with Mark. Like I said, who does he want to become? How does that feel? Like what's that unique psychological style? Okay, so then we work backwards from there and we say what are the capabilities to be able to make that true more often? To have a first a relationship with oneself so that we can have deep and meaningful relationships with others and the activities that we're engaging in. All right.

So to pull this down from the esoteric into the concrete, deep focus. That's where this comes from. Deep focus. The present moment is the entry point in for high performance. And let's say it's high performing parenting. It sounds weird, but it means being your very best parent. So the present moment is the entryway in. It's also the entryway in for making critical, creative, time-sensitive decisions. So high performance in the work context. It's also the place, the present moment, is where wisdom is revealed. It's where you understand the deep and rich nuances of what it means to be a thriving human at one level.

So spending time in the present moment will be the unlock. fully present with your children, and you add that curiosity meets beginner's mind of what it must be like for that person, for that little eight-year-old or that little mind that's trying to figure things out and looking at the hero of dad and trying to figure out how this world works and how to create safety within themselves. And you can just have that, like, what is it like for them? It strips us out of our narrative that we need to get somewhere else or do something else. And if you have the skill to focus deeply in the present moment, this moment and this moment and this moment and this moment again, and by the way, that's trainable. All of what I'm talking about is fully trainable when it comes to deep focus. If you have that capability and you add the contour of what must it be like for this person, they feel seen, they feel understood.

And that happens at home and it happens at work. People feel full. They feel like they matter. They are connected to something that they want to be connected to. And that's a long way of saying, who do you want to become? Double down on relationships, double click there on deep focus, and add a unique contour about what it must be like for the person that you're having the conversation with. Concept of bringing your whole self to work. There's a lot of different ways you can interpret that. Do we bring all our noise and all our domestic issues into our workplace? Or does that mean something different? What does that mean to you? This idea that I need to be one way at work and one way at home is antiquated. I mean, that's gone the way of the dodo. However, there

are conditions for us that we don't feel like we can be fully ourselves, let's say at work. And there's a concept of two selves, you know, that you've got to play a certain way to be part of that group. Making a commitment to be authentically you independent of environmental conditions is awesome and it's hard so the idea of bringing your whole self to work there's something deeply aspirational about it and then also something wildly inappropriate about it and so there's levels to it you, there's a sophistication to know what parts of me to bring forward. Meaning like, let's say I have a fight with my wife and like, or like it's something that's really troubling me in my home life. Do I, do I bring that into the meeting? Probably not. But if, do I have people that are in my work community and do I

have relationships with them where I can lean on them and trust them? That feels more appropriate than like kind of airing out all the stuff that's really difficult. But I'm not suggesting in this that you're faking your way through the work environment. So the whole self for me is really about making a radical commitment to know who you are. And then knowing that you're a work in progress and knowing that mistakes are part of it and knowing that trauma and heartache and all of that is part of the human

experience. And then to create the right relationships to support all of you. Some of those relationships are at work and some of those relationships are outside of work. But the first order, whole self, is really a really, it's a powerful thought. Like, I'm not even sure I know how to articulate who my whole self is. I feel like I'm multi-dimensional. Like, certain environments I can be a certain way and other environments it accesses a different part of me, but it's still me. So what I'm saying is I'm tempering down that idea of like bring your drama into work. And I'm also opening up the idea that I need to be a certain way to be approved by others and that's how I should show up.

So there is a balance in here a bit. And then also if you, I think if we can appreciate like I can be intense, I can be silly, I can be a bit of a mess, I can be a hard ass, I can be soft and loving. Like I've got all of those dimensions and it's knowing which part of me to bring into the environment that honors the relationship and honors the shared mission that we're on. That's what a whole self feels like to me is that I have range because of the self-discovery work. And then I can figure out which parts best suit the relationship and the shared mission that we've agreed to go on together. Paul gets points for honesty with this question. He writes, Mike, I do not know why, but I find

myself constantly finding flaws in people. And by people, I'm referring to my coworkers who are actually great people. I find myself doing it often with my next door neighbors and they are kind and amazing people. For some reason, there's this voice in my head that is constantly knocking people down in my mind. Do you have any explanation for that? That's good. Okay, Paul. I wonder what you're thinking about me.

Yeah, you better answer this question right. Yeah. So, okay. So let's just kind of call it what it is. It's critique, judgment. And the lenses that we hold about behaviors for ourself and our others are usually the same. So when we're really hard on ourselves, it's like we've got these dark tinted glasses on, you know, when we look at ourselves. Rarely do we take those dark tint off and put like rose colored on for other people. We might have different shades, but it's still dark and critical, let's say. And the opposite can be true too. If like you see

yourself like in loving, kind ways and it's like, it's great to be in your own spirit and mind and body. Like it's awesome. Like you're a great coach to yourself and you really have your back and you know, that's how we end up up speaking or thinking about other people as well. So what we're talking about is critical judgment or critique and judgment. It's actually complicated because self-critique will help you get good at something. That's not good enough. Damn it. Like, let's dig in.

We can do better. Let's go. Come on. I got this. You know, like that kind of like, what are you doing with your life, Mike? You know, that type of inner critic voice will get anybody good, but it doesn't take us to the place that we really want. It cannot take us to a place of flourishing, true thriving. And if we're practicing getting good at something and we're using this tool, self-critique and judgment, what we end up doing is adopting that same strategy on others. Okay, so this is one way of thinking about critique. It's a tool that serves us to get good. It will never lead to flourishing unless

you let go of that tool for a different tool and when you do that for yourself you will critique others less because you're not practiced at it so what you focus on grows what you practice grows and if you're practicing critique of others you're probably doing that because you've done it to yourself a lot if you're practicing self critique you're probably doing that because you've done it to yourself a lot. If you're practicing self-critique, you're probably going to turn that same thing on others. Again, what you practice grows. Lauren asked, how do you work with athletes worried about getting injured and coaches

who worry about their star player getting injured? Okay, Lauren, anxiety kind of is this bed of thinking that can sit underneath all of us. And in the world of athletics, we call it hearing footsteps. And I'll share a story with you. So I was working with an NBA athlete. He was really solid. He was a starter. He wasn't one of the celebrity stars in the league, but he was a solid starter, reliable contributor.

And he went up for a dunk and got clipped. And, you know, so he's in a, I don't know, six foot free fall and he snaps his wrist in his elbow. And teammates, first row bench was like, oh my God. It was like a traumatic moment for people that watched it. Of course it was traumatic for him too. So he physically healed and his wrist had all the evidence and his elbow had all of the evidence that he was stronger physically. But each time he would go up for a layup, this is when we met, right? I didn't know him at the time when he injured himself, but subsequently when he would go up for just a layup, not even a dunk as

matching when he got hurt, but when he'd go up for a layup, he would crouch up, like bracing himself for an impact. And even when he would start, like his couple steps to go up for the rim, he would say, go strong, right? Because he knew that he needed to set his mind to go up because he had this protective mechanism that was embedded. And he would go up and still he would have this crowded protective body posture. And of course, he's not going to be able to do his thing when he's operating that way. And until you figure out how the early traumas in your life, and you don't have to do a deep dive, but a dive, what are the tripwires that lead you to overworry?

What are the tripwires that lead you to have a posture of protection, when really what you want is to be able to go up to the ball or go up to the rim and be free and slap the board like you used to or dunk it freely. And so until you understand the tripwires for it, it's very hard to just all of a sudden get free. And for those of us who are coaching others and we're worried about injury, there's an anxiety that sits underneath that's probably related to the trauma that you had about getting

hurt. And then you lay that trauma on the potential future traumatized person, the athlete or whatever. And so I think the work is to say, do your own work first to see where that comes from. What are your tripwires? Why would you have this type of thinking for somebody else? And just answering the why actually is not enough because logically you can say, well, because if these athletes get hurt, it could ruin their career, it could set them back, it could be bad for teammates, blah, blah, blah. There's all types of logical reasons

that you could answer it. And that's why you have to do two parts like the emotional part what's the tripwire and then fill in a better solution moving forward on how you want to support your people to really go for it because that's as a coach that's our job our job is to see the potential of others, to calibrate what we believe is possible with them, and then to develop a strategy that will support that, like an uncommonly, relentlessly focused commitment to help that vision that we've calibrated on of what's possible be as close to a reality as we can today and tomorrow and the next day, as long as we can do it together. And if we've got this other thing that's embedded in there,

which is I'm really afraid that you're going to get hurt, and that's actually a bigger driver or larger narrative than the risk and vulnerability required to stretch to that next version of yourself. We play it safe. We play it small. We create conditions for people to be okay, to make it through practice. But we never get to the edges that are required for radical growth.

And so there's a book that was like 100 pages in, maybe 150 pages in, that was never published. And one of the titles was called Making a Case for Broken Bones. And it was based on that story, but it was really this chapter was for parents to say, if you want your kids to go high in life, a tree metaphor holds up well. Sometimes we fall out of trees. Sometimes we break bones. That's not the worst thing that's going to happen to your kid.

But that is hard. When I look at my son, he's climbing, he's shaking, and he's looking down. He's like, Dad, am I OK? And I'm like, yeah. And so I'm like, I don't say it'm like, you know, I don't say it, but if you fall, this could be really bad for you. You know, like having those moments where we are fundamentally commitment

to getting to the edge as opposed to fundamentally committed to playing it safe. I think there's a sophistication to know when and how to do that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Peter asks, what's the best way to listen so people want to talk? I'm specifically asking about my 15-year-old son, but as a general practice, what do you recommend? Okay, that's good. I mean, the first order of business is like a 15-year-old son. It's hard. It's just hard to get stuff out of them because my son is 14. I say, how was your day today? Good. It's classic, right? So it's not necessarily listening, which I'll touch on

that. I think it's creating thought stems, creating scenarios that are a little bit more concrete. So an on-ramp feels, um, wide and it's also got some guardrails. Like here's a question that I asked my son, um, what was the hardest part of your day? Or what was the thing that challenged you the most? Or, Hey, what, what mistakes did you get to make today? Or, um, who'd you laugh, you know, with the most today or what are the things that scared you today? So there's like a little bit of a guardrail in there because when you ask a young mind, how was your day? It's almost like it's too big.

It's like me looking at a white piece of paper, wanting to write something coming from my heart that's really deep and I just look at it and I'm paper, wanting to write something, you know, coming from my heart that's really deep. And I just look at it and I'm like, I have nothing to say. So, but if somebody were to say like, why don't you start off with a story that, you know, made you laugh? Oh yeah. Okay.

So I can get into that. So part of it is the art of a thought stem. It's like a half sentence or a sentence that gives them some direction that they can explore. And that doesn't mean they're going to do it. You know, 14-year-old kid that jumps in the car after a long day or 15-year-old kid that jumps in the car after a long day, you know, that kid's probably pretty tired. Last thing he really wants to do is reminisce with dad, you know, about like all of the day because, you know, they work pretty damn hard. And so that's one. Okay. And I'll stop there. And the

second part of that though is Socratic questioning is to keep drilling under. So when they, whatever they give you, they say, good. You say, oh, what parts were good? So you just keep drilling under, keep drilling under in a way that you just keep pulling on it. And without frustration, without having a sense of intolerance for it or whatever, like you just keep pulling on the thread like, oh, how was that? And how was that? Oh, tell me more about that. Oh, that's interesting. And then when my son says good, I just laugh and he knows, and it's kind of a game and he knows there's a follow on that's going to, you know, okay. So then the other part is on listening. All you do is just listen. Like it's just creating space and you're just trying to understand

what is it like to be this person. And when I listen, I am not listening to the words that they're sharing. I'm listening for why they chose those words of all the words they could choose. I'm trying to think like why those words. And then more importantly, that kind of fades away quickly for me. But I'm going right underneath that to see if I can understand the emotion that they're working from. but I'm going right underneath that to see if I can understand the emotion that they're working from. So this drives my wife nuts is that I'm listening, but I'm really trying to understand

the feeling. And so I will forget the narrative that she's talking about far quicker than the tone and the contour of the emotion. And so I think the key to listening well is creating space to do exactly that, to listen, be less interested in the words, but more interested in why they chose those words, and even more interested in the emotion that they're conveying through the words. I actually think listening is your superpower. And I've seen you not just listen to the feeling, but I've seen you really kind of capture somebody's experience and feed it back to them in a way where, oh, that and this, and like, there's all this stuff happening. And then all of a sudden it just kind of unfolds as you're sharing it. And then to see another person go, how'd you know that? And it's like, oh, I was just listening.

You've actually said a lot. And again, it's not the words. It's why those words were chosen. And then it's the feeling that's conveyed with it. And then thank you for the comment. And then to your point, though, what decades of training and psychology allows us to do is have frameworks that we're working from as well. And everyone thinks like, oh, you're diagnosing. No, it's not. You pay a lot of money because it takes a lot of time to diagnose somebody, really, unless they're flat out obvious, you know, but, but it's all these beautiful frameworks and scientific theories that are helping me map an architecture of how this person is experiencing their life. How do you put a high-performance mindset lens on forgiveness? When something's been done to you, wrongfully done to you, how do you let go of it?

What mindset skills do you use to process? First order of business is that none of us are getting through this life without trauma, big trauma or little trauma. So we all have an understanding of what it feels like to be deeply hurt, to be scared in a way that reorganizes how we think about ourselves or other people, to be in life-threatening or seemingly life-threatening experiences that fundamentally reshape how we feel in a present moment. And when there is a perpetrator, when there is somebody that is a bad actor, when there

is somebody that maliciously wanted to harm you, as opposed to somebody that did something and there was a consequential wake of hurt that took place. So let's take the bad actor first, the person who is narcissistic, sociopathic, or maybe less down of intensity is really just selfish, you know, and doesn't have the care, the wherewithal, the ability to understand, you know, the impact. Okay, so let's go from the traumatic standpoint first, is that forgiving is one thing, and then putting yourself in a situation to be re-traumatized is another. So let's start with the forgiveness.

The forgiveness is not for that person. The forgiveness is for you. And that sounds easy. It sounds like, oh, I've heard that before. But when we take a look at the neurochemistry involved in protecting oneself, and we look at the neurochemistry involved in frustration, anger, and contempt, it's pretty toxic. You know, it's meant for instantaneous protection and it's not sustainable. So the drain on my system when I am using anger to protect myself because forgiveness is very different than anger.

And so when I'm using some sort of emotional set of tools, whether it's high fear or anger, to protect myself, it's like there's a big hole in the bottom of the bucket. You know, each day we fill up our bucket with nutrition and sleep and exercise and meditation and, and, and, and, right? And then we go throughout our day and just the stressors of the day, there's a drain, but this just widens that bucket. So then now we've got our energy resources ripping through the bucket. So it's not sustainable because the cost is so high. And that's when I say it's for you. I'm thinking about it from a neurochemistry biological perspective. You can also add a spiritual layer to it, some sort of karmic, some sort of deeper way of organizing how you relate to other people. But I just want to hit the first one first. So it's not for the other person, but forgiveness does not mean that you put yourself back into

harm's way. And so let's say that you're in an abusive relationship and there's a mending that takes place. So there's an abuse that takes place and then there's a mending that takes place. So there's an abuse that takes place and then there's a mending, which it's called the honeymoon. And like, it's quite amazing actually for most people. And this, there's a circular nature to the cycle of abuse. It's an incident, there's a honeymoon phase, and then there's great tension leading up to the next moment of abuse. So in that repair moment, which is relatively surface, and it's really just to meet the needs of the abuser so that the victim doesn't go away again, or doesn't go away, that in that moment, there's a temptation to want to forgive because you see something special in the person. You see something that you fell in love with early on, but the behavior doesn't

match it. And you say, okay, well, I can give a pass. Like we all make mistakes and dah, dah, dah, dah. But if that person says, I am sorry, I will never do this again. And it's like, Ooh, that feels right. But they don't do any work around it. They don't, they don't go to their woodshed to change the way they think, to change the way that they work with their emotions. That's just going to happen again. So, so forgiveness happens for you. Forgiveness and putting yourself in the same situation needs to have a second mechanism. And that second mechanism is to make sure that the other person who has either accidentally or purposely harmed you is taking accountability and responsibility to change the way that they use their mind and the way that they work with their emotions so that they never put you in that harm's way again. So I think that that's a lot of work that goes into that. And people say, well, I can forgive but not forget. What they're saying is, I'm not going

to put myself in harm's way again. Like, I'm not going to fully trust you the forgiveness is for you and also when you forgive somebody else there's a deeper layer here that i want to talk about is that we're all interrelated like we're in ways we don't even really understand and so if we are holding hatred and contempt for other people for our own protection, there's a freeing mechanism that happens when we can see how we can let go of that, as long as we can take care of ourselves. So there is a great psychological, emotional freeing that happens when you're like, you know what? I can forgive because I know how to take care of me. Marcy asks, focus. Can you have too much? How does one loosen their focus in a healthy way so as not to hold onto things too tightly? Okay. So there's two parts. Focus in and of itself

doesn't mean hold onto. So I'll talk through the quadrants of focus. And this is based on some research by Robert Niederfer, which is foundational for me. So yes, you can have too much focus. You can have too much narrow focus. So the quadrants are, if you imagine in your head right now that there's a horizontal axis and it's between broad and narrow, and there's a vertical axis, which is between external and internal. And so when you have too much narrow focus, whether it's an internal narrow focus, focusing on yourself or one aspect of yourself,

or it's too much of an external narrow focus, which is just locking in on the something, whatever kind of, usually it's a threat, right? Of course, that type of narrow focus is all consuming and we miss other parts of life. We can also hyper focus in certain situations like playing a video game or a great conversation with somebody, or if we're in a scary environment or a fear-based environment that, you know, to survive through that, we just have to narrow focus. So narrow focusing is, it's really important. And at the same time,

most people don't struggle here. Most people struggle with not having a discipline of narrow focus. So their mind quickly wanders to the next thing. So that's just a model for focus. The holding on, I'm not sure how that relates to focus. Like, is that I'm focused on chasing a goal? And so they're using that word for like a commitment or a determination or something. And so if the thought is like, if I'm over-focusing on, replace the word, if I am too resilient or I have too much perseverance or I'm over-committed to something, how do I let go of doing that? There's a concept called the dip. And there's lots of cartoons around this. But most people do quit at some point something that's not working

out. And I'm making like a U with my finger here is that so you start something, you get a little progress that kind of the edge goes up and then it gets harder and there's a dip and it goes down, down, down, down, down. And then most people drop around the bottom of the dip. But what's required to get to the next level of why you started this mission that you're on to get to that next kind of space is that you've got to go through this upward grind, but you're starting now at a new bottom, if you will. Most people stop at the bottom, they quit at the bottom. And I'm using that word provocatively. And if they just stay with a little bit longer, it'd be great. However, there is a case to be made to quit early, you know, like quit a hundred times. So until you find the thing that like, you're like, oh wait, I understand this thing. I really, I can see my

future in this and I'm going to love the grind. Maybe those are the ones that you double bet on. So most people don't struggle with deep focus problems. Most people struggle with like more of an ADD kind of under focus rather than hyper focus. And most people don't play the long game. They do quit early when it gets hard. And this is why mastery is so rare. This is why high performance is more available, but still rare. Really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already,

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show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need,

one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.