Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Leading Through Chaos — Lessons From an Elite Special Ops Commander | Phil Kornachuk

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

This week’s conversation is with Phil Kornachuk, a highly-trained military expert with 22 years of service in the U.S. Army Special Ops Command. After serving with both the 2nd Battalion Rangers and the Green Berets, being deployed 12 times, and receiving a Silver Star – the 3rd highest award for valor in combat – Phil decided to leave his military career behind and channel his experience into a new kind of mission: helping people and businesses forge high performance leadership skills. Indexing on self-mastery, mindset training and resilience, Phil’s passion for developing purpose-driven leaders and high performing teams has taken the form of executive coaching, 1-on-1 training, hands-on workshops and even back-country expeditions through his company StoneWater Training. Phil and I share the belief that there are no shortcuts, and you’ll hear all about how this high school dropout who grew up on a dairy farm in Ontario, Canada cultivated a mental toughness and leadership acumen that’s even more impressive than his physical fortitude. In this conversation, you’ll hear how Phil exemplifies true grit, a detailed story of how he earned his Silver Star, and how his philosophy came to be “know yourself, lead yourself, lead others.”_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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can get into that condition you know I think you'll excel under stress and pressure. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And I am really excited to sit down with Phil Kornichuk for this week's conversation. Phil has forged an incredible path. He's a highly trained military expert with 22 years of service in the U.S. Army Special Ops Command, during which he served with the 2nd Battalion Rangers, the Green Berets, was deployed 12 times, and received a Silver Star. That's the third highest award for valor in combat. We explore that incredible story throughout this conversation. Now, after retiring from the Army, he decided

to dedicate his expertise to a new mission, helping people and businesses forge high-performance leadership skills. Indexing on self-mastery, mindset training, and discipline, Phil is following his passion for developing purpose-driven leaders and high-performing teams through his company, Stone Water Training. Phil and I share the belief that there are no shortcuts. And you'll hear all about how this high school dropout

who grew up on a dairy farm in rural Ontario cultivated mental toughness, leadership acumen, and a life perspective that we can all benefit from. With that, let's get right into this week's conversation with Phil Kornichuk. Okay, Phil, you have had an incredible life from high school dropout to Green Beret to owning your own company. Let's give a quick flyover of the the it's called the chapters of your life for folks that you know don't know your full history where do we start so i i was born at a very young age um in eastern canada and you know essentially i'll kind of fast you set the tone already okay here we go it's true's a fact. I try to work in facts, but yeah, really kind of a

conservative upbringing. You know, dad was a hardcore old school Baptist minister. Mom stayed at home. I think I'm going to find a way to use that at some point in my life. That's brilliant. I was born at a very young age. Okay. I was still stuck. You can own it. I stole it off someone else before too. So it's all yours now. All right, cool. But, uh, yeah, so conservative upbringing, rural Eastern Canada, cow country. And, um, I actually ended up, I was in a very small, very strict, uh, private school that, uh, I really didn't, didn't work for me. And so when I was 16, I just walked away from home and, uh, didn't go back. Okay. hold on, hold on, hold on. So there's a gap in there somewhere.

Okay, so rural, conservative, and it didn't work for you. So you hung it up at the ripe age of 16. Yeah, well, because I had all the answers. I had everything figured out. Oh, now I understand. Yeah, no, I think the reality was, you know, obviously it was something where, yeah, it just, it wasn't right for me. The world wasn't that binary black and white. I hadn't seen a lot, but I knew I wanted to see more. I wanted to experience more. I wanted to get out and see what was outside of this bubble. And so, you know, like I said,

left home shortly after my 16th birthday and kind of stumbled around making all kinds of bad decisions that you do when you're that age. And my saving grace was on my 17th birthday, I actually enlisted in the Canadian Army. So I was the reserves, nothing sexy. But that was my first introduction to leaders that were kind of no bullshit and held you to a standard. They're like, all right, sign on the dotted line. OK, now you're here and this is what you're going to do. And they didn't care if you wanted to, or you didn't want to, or you could, or you couldn't, that was a standard and you were expected to meet it. And at first, you know, that, that rankled me. And then I realized like, Oh, I,

a, I can do this. And B, if I don't quit, I can actually do this fairly well. So I did that for, you know, roughly about two years. And, uh, I want to, I want to interrupt. What gave you the ability to say, I can do this well. Like, how did you sort that out? Well, is that whole, everything we did, you know, was measured, you know, whether it's your physical performance or your tactical or technical proficiency, there was times there was scores. And again, I saw if I could just master the fundamentals, master the basics, I could execute to or above standard. And because I didn't, other than being a very mediocre hockey player up until I was 16, I didn't really have a sports background, no real team orientation. I was a solid C student, like just mediocre to below mediocre all around.

And that was the script I had kind of written for myself, but I didn't like it. So then I I was a solid C student, like just mediocre to below mediocre all around. And you know, that was the script I'd kind of written for myself, but I didn't like it. So then I came in this totally new environment where it's a level playing field and you kind of had a chance to kind of reinvent yourself because everyone was new to it. It's like, well, let's see where this can go. There's a revisionist, you know, kind of nature to memory, but I'm trying to piece together, if I could understand the vibe of you at that age, it might be really informative to understand how you've done so much in your life. The sad reality was probably much more this is I think I'd had a really lousy week at school. I thought it was kind of BS and I was done with it. I mean, straight up it was like i said it was it was a pretty unusual unique um again private very strict very religious institution that wasn't really academically oriented and it was it wasn't

cool and i was like i'm done and i and i literally walked away and i wasn't upset at my parents or anything i just knew i'm not waiting around anymore they didn't freak out yeah i mean they moderately freaked out. I mean, it's their youngest kid just disappeared. Uh, and then, you know, talk, called him a few days later and said, Hey, I'm going to move in with my brother and I'm going to figure this out. There's this Scottish restaurant, Mac Donald's it's hiring. I'm going to work there. And yeah, you can see why the army looks so appealing. Got it. Okay. Check the boxes.

So if you think about all that you've done from that origin story, and we're going to get to all of it and the insights from your military experience and the company that you built, were you running away from something at home or were you running towards something? I think it was probably more running towards something, but I didn't know what that was. I just knew I wanted different, um, you know, I just felt like my, my path, you know, I, I hadn't, you know, identified purpose or values or anything like that. I just knew didn't, it didn't feel right at the time. Not that, and there was nothing wrong with it. I don't mean to say, you know, my parents love me. And, you know, I think like humans worldwide, you make the best decisions you can with the information you have, you know, we're product of our genetics and experience. My parents were no different than that. But I just looking around,

it didn't, I was like, this isn't, this isn't really what I'm hungry for. Where'd you pick up that philosophy? People do the best they can with what they have, genetic environment, interplay. Yeah, I think I tell myself that every time I make a mistake. Okay. No, I mean, it's truly, you know, fast forwarding,

you know, I've been around the world and I've been in some pretty kind of conflict-ridden situations. And when you really distill it down to the bare bones, you know, the people on the other side, they're not necessarily, and I put an asterisk by it, because I think their acts can be horrific, but a lot of times they think they're doing the right thing

based on who they are and where they grew up and their worldview. And again, I'm not justifying the actions, you know, that, right. That are, that are totally jacked up that are out there. Um, but I think there's very few people that go, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to F this up. I'm going to, yeah, I don't, I don't know anyone that writes themselves as the villain in the story. Like, you know, like that it, it, it's far more complicated than that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, okay. All right. So I'm getting the, I'm getting the beginnings here and then let's, so zoom really far forward,

silver star award with a V for valor. Uh, that, that was a different, the silver, uh, the silver star is a metal eight. They give out for, uh, actions under fire. It's award for valor. It it's it's the third highest as far as the military awards uh for me it was just right place at the right time with the right people and everybody says that has you know the accolades well it's because i know the people around me if i if i talk trash and act like i was kind of a big deal they'll be knocking on my door in a few hours when i get home yeah right. Okay. So let's just talk about that though. Circumstantially, what goes in to an award like that?

That's a great question. Because I think it's, you know, I've been around, you know, two people I've worked with have been awarded the Medal of Honor. So Pat Payne and Leroy Petrie both survived and got it. And explain Medal of Honor for folks. So that's the highest award you for folks. This is the highest. So that's the highest award you can get in any of the US military services for courage under fire.

Clearly, and it's more often than not posthumous, meaning people usually don't survive who get the Medal of Honor. You know, as you kind of look at the different awards, I mean, a lot of it comes down to what, what actually happens, you know, to your point, a lot of people are like, well, what was I supposed to do? That was my job. I'm, I'm a soldier. I'm a Marine. I'm a sailor. I'm in that situation.

I did what any, any of my teammates would have done. Exactly. And so I, you know, to me, you know, I think there, there is a degree of right place, right time, a little bit of luck mixed in and there is some degree of right place, right time, a little bit of luck mixed in. And there is some, hey, step up and do something that's usually a little beyond your assigned position. You know, it's ironic. I think back to, you know, where I got awarded the Silver Star and it was something where I look back and I'm like, well, what did you expect us to do? Like, just get overrun? Like, that seemed like a terrible option.

So of course we, you know, we fought our tail off and got out of there. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively.

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. And now, back to the conversation. Can you talk about some of the, some of the story surrounding it? Sure. Uh, that one I can actually, you know,

talk about fairly, fairly openly. Uh, so I was a special forces team leader. Uh, we are in Northwest Afghanistan and, um, as a green Bray, as a green Bray. Yep. And so there had been a Marine special operations unit there at this very small outpost, kind of like, I think, the Alamo, who had been fighting pretty hard for a while and taking casualties. And they actually lost their team sergeant, a guy named Rob Gilbert, was killed. And I was further south in a different part of the country, a little more laid back area as far as combat zones go. So stuff was happening, but we weren't, you know, it wasn't gunfights every day type thing. And I had 750 really well trained, really well motivated Afghan commandos who were like, Hey, let's, we're trained to go

where there's problems. And I'm like, well, I know where there's a problem. And we also had an aviation battalion. I mean, people who flew helicopters who were flying up to the same place, getting shot up. So they had a vested interest in us going up there and helping, you know, secure the area. So one thing led to another, worked with the Marine team up there, worked with the helicopter pilots and managed to finagle getting about half my team and about a hundred of these Afghan commandos up there to help the Marines out. They were doing an awesome job, but there was no respite for them. And, you know, they had taken some casualties. And their Afghan counterparts weren't as highly selected and well trained, well equipped as the ones I had. So, yeah, we got up there and we teamed up with them.

You know, so it was this composite of, I think there was four Marine special operators and five Green Berets and about 45 Afghans. And you know, this particular mission was, you know, they were telling us stuff that it seemed a little far-fetched. We're like, yeah, probably seems like that, but is that reality?

They're like, hey, the Taliban, and that's who they're fighting in that area.'re like the taliban have cleared out all the villagers for about five miles around the base so this is all bad guy country and they got trenches and they got wire and they outnumber us and they do this and that and i'm like it probably seems like that because you're under pressure every day but reality is probably not quite not quite so defined like you're just describing a conventional conflict in what was a counterinsurgency so you're you're they're giving you a narrative and you're inserting that it's clouded by the pressure that they're experiencing not thinking

that it's as dire or as heavy yeah i mean they just lost their second in command yeah they've been under constant pressure so how do you convey that back to is that a private thought that you have it was probably an assumption at the time it probably wasn't quite as strong like part of me of constant pressure, so. How do you convey that back to, is that a private thought that you have? Or do you convey? It was probably an assumption, and at the time it probably wasn't quite as strong. Like part of me goes, like this is a pretty unique situation if it's true, you know, let's verify it. And they're like, yeah, sure, we can go out at night

and we can patrol through the lines and we can show you the empty village, and then from there we can come up with a plan to clear it. I'm like, this sounds awesome. And again, it was 45 of uh there was there's about five of these marine special operators that actually went out of the wire with my team in about five of my my green berets and then i think we had one or two other american attachments like a navy corpsman oh because it was like 12. yeah and then we had about i don't know between between 30 and 40 Afghan commandos with us.

With you going out on this beginning? Yeah, this nighttime reconnaissance patrol. So we're going out to basically confirm or deny, you know, is the enemy really here? Is it really as bad as they say? The big thing was, hey, are there civilians in the area? Because if there's no civilians in the area versus if there is it drives a different type of right like the us makes very deliberate efforts to minimize it um and so this was part of it like get get more info before you act well we went out and sure enough it was just like they said i mean it was eerie ghost town and uh i had some people up on the hills kind of watching us like our guys um two little overwatch kind of sniper teams and our guys, two little Overwatch kind of sniper teams. And then I had two groups that were going through this village just checking for any signs of life other than Taliban. And is that visual contact or using other technologies to do that?

I mean, we were at this point, it was mostly just visual contact going through, you know, you're looking in windows. I mean, this uh like 2010 time frame and we weren't like a you know we didn't have a ton of assets and drones and everything supporting us i think we might have had one or two things over us but then the clouds rolled in so even that was moot and that factors into the story later so we we confirm we're like holy cow this is like no kidding like i feel like i'm a Hollywood set of what Afghanistan should look like but there's no actors here And you know the hair is kind of standing up on the back your neck like this is unusual and we had made a plan what do you do with that when your body speaks to you that way and You're getting all the signals that like there's something different here

I think it's almost like that, you know, Malcolm Gladwell when he talks about it in Blink, like that thin slicing, like you're picking up cues subconsciously that you're not processing, you know, you're not witting, you know, the front part of your brain's really not tracking what's going on, but. So it wasn't loud enough to say.

But you're just like, something's off. Like you definitely felt that. And I'm like, hey. That's what I want to know what you did with. And it's like, I think we've confirmed this is not normal. I'm like, let's get our teams together and get out of here. So I brought together my two mobile elements. And I told one of my groups that were up on the hills watching us to come in.

And the other one, I'm like, you guys just stay there in case things go sideways. And looking on the map, we beforehand we're like hey look these these roads intersect here and there's this creek that goes through it with a bridge like this is going to be a really good natural link up spot there's a compound right there let's let's meet there best idea ever so i'm coming at it to one side with my group of maybe 10 and then from the other side and are you leading the green berets and the marines i'm the ground force commander meaning i i'm the person on the ground with the radio sort of thing let's you know i'm not that the number one man i'm not in the very front you know i'm

kind of in in the mix with my i'm basically stumbling around with night vision with both my hands on radios like tripping over logs and stuff but theoretically in charge that was for your teammates i understand exactly what you're saying. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Good. All right. Everyone heard that. So now they're like, okay, that's accurate. Yeah. That's accurate. Right. But yeah, make the decision to, Hey guys, let's, let's meet up and let's get out of here. Like, this is a little weird. Okay. Got it. And so, you know, unbeknownst to me that the area identified

for us to link up was also the regional headquarters for the Taliban in the area. And they were having a meeting because they were trying to figure out why there were extra americans at this base like you can't make this up so just imagine like a strip mall size walls compound full of people who really don't like you oh my god so we're coming at it from one side and uh one of my guys is is leading the team from another side we both are afghan counterparts and it's dark and it's eerie. And the Marines had told us this and we're like, you guys are nuts. But they said, Hey, when the Taliban think we're in the area, they start howling like coyotes. And I'm like, what? Like, come on, you guys read too

many Stephen King novels. And sure enough, we start hearing these people making like these weird calls in the middle of the night. It's like one in the morning and this Afghan village is totally abandoned. I'm like, that's just weird. And I didn't like it. Like, you're just like, okay, this is getting stranger and you're not scared, but you're definitely on high alert. I mean, you know, part of us, like that's what we were there for, right. Is confirm or deny. And I felt like we had kind of confirmed like, this is, this is a real situation. Okay. Another interruption to this is magic because there's so much rich experience that you're, you're bringing to the story. I was on high alert, but not scared. And you,

do you feel like you understand the space between those really well? Most people it's like smashed together and it's hard to differentiate. And I'm wondering how much space you have between those two experiences. So I think, I think it's, it's probably not a whole lot different from flow state in other, other fields of expertise, right? And it's, it's where you are very prepared for the situation. You have all the tools mentally, physically, like you're ready for it, but it's pushing your limits and you're like hey i'm i'm on the edge you know it's that fine line you know i just did a talk on the fine line between hard and stupid like i'm on the edge i need to be on my a game i've got this but you got to be smart

so just you know it's literally a flow state i've had it a few other times in in combat where it truly has felt like man like you feel like time slows and you just have a clarity and awareness that normally isn't there. The downside is that wasn't always automatically replicable. I got to a point where I thought that would just come. And I, and then I realized you can be overconfident or underprepared and then go, I'm not in the flow state. I'm in a confused state. And that, you know, those were other stories down the road. We don't have to get to those. I don't look as well. Um, yeah, but for this one, so as we're coming together, uh, you know, I'm about 50 yards in the dark from this compound. And to me, it's just a mud wall. That's all I'm looking at as we're approaching. And then you just hear shots

start rattling off and my guy comes across the radio and he goes, Hey, troops in contact. And then it just escalates from there. Shots, explosions. And what had happened was this element were coming up to the compound. They saw three or four people with guns outside the compound. They thought it was our Afghan commandos. And so they're walking up. It's night vision. And unlike Hollywood, you don't see that clearly if there's not a lot of ambient light.

And it was cloudy and it was low loom. It doesn't have like a red dot on it or no, no, it's, you know, you know, child of the eighties, I grew up watching the Navy seal movie where the people glow in the dark and the, you know, Charlie Sheen's talking, you know, it's not at all like that. It's a blurry little man shaped blob. And you're like, Oh, is that that? Well, Phil said he'd be there. So that's probably his Afghan commandos and his Afghans thought like, they're like, oh, great. There they are. So as they're approaching, the Taliban is thinking the same thing because they're holding a meeting. So all these people are coming in.

So they start waving at the Green Berets and the Afghans. And the Afghan commandos are polite. They wave back. And then they're like, wait a second. Those guys don't have helmets. They have different guns. And then all hell breaks loose yeah i'm on the other side of the wall hearing all this going well that wasn't part of the plan

and so we're like a bunch of grade school kids we come up on the wall the enemy doesn't know we're there they all spill out in this courtyard and prepare to overrun this element led by mike and and we're peeking over the wall seeing this gathering of you know i don't know 10 15 enemy um and they don't know where we're at so of course we do what we're supposed to do when we protect our our mates on the other side um and we realize there's actually about 30 people inside this compound and they're really upset that we disturbed their meeting so that that goes on for several hours. And, uh, I think within the first hour, um, we had seven casualties on our side. Uh, one of the Afghans was killed. My medic got shot, uh, through the foot and was refusing to get off the battlefield.

Our air support couldn't come in and support us because they couldn't see through the clouds. And our medevac kilos did two runs trying to get our guys out. And then on the second one, they were like, "'We're low on fuel. Like we can't do any more runs.'" So now we were about three miles deep in enemy country, surrounded by mountains, fighting still to clear this compound.

We didn't know if there was tunnels and bunkers underneath it. So it felt like a zombie apocalypse because you would have a threat, you would neutralize it. And then then about a minute later someone else would pop up in the same spot we're like lord they're invincible this is amazing what kind of technology do they have uh but we we fight through and as we're securing the compound enemy from surrounding precincts i don't know what you'd call it districts yeah start pouring into the valley So now we're fighting to secure this strip mall size compound with about an equal number of enemy, as we are,

with no air support and no medevac. And now we start to have people coming outside the compound surrounding us. So taking your back. Yeah, exactly. And so now we're fighting inside and outside. And my people who I'd left on the high ground to cover for us start getting shot up. And they start taking casualties. You know, we had one guy who he was in like a little, he dug himself a little position and he was pinned down and he had a, you know, a grenade launcher under his rifle and that got shot off and then the antenna to his radio got shot off and then he had a pack of cigarettes for whatever reason on the lip which is a terrible habit by the way and totally deteriorated

cardiovascular fitness to anyone listening but he had it on the lip of this trench and then that got shot up so he's just like sitting there with no radio half a weapon just kind of being like yeah did not see this happening today oh geez and um and his name was pat dolphin he ended up passing away on a follow-on deployment but uh it was just that kind of intensity and uh we called for what's called a quick reaction force so another that the other half of the marine group and some of their afghan partners were going to come out and bail us out like hey we found the enemy in a big way you were all around us you were right um we're gonna try to head back but be cool if you could help us out because we they're pretty upset

at us and you know we had burned their motorcycles and we had we had basically wrecked their little taliban party i think that one was about a 10 hour gunfight and it wasn't the longest i was in but it's probably the longest hardest one i'd been part of 10 hours yeah they went from about one in the morning to if i'm asked right 11 in the morning actually maybe it was a little longer than that i think we were back the guys who were still okay we're back by about noon and um yeah i mean you know you you especially as a reconnaissance mission so we didn't bring a pack and i mean theoretically you're only shooting when you have something to shoot at, which, you know, if you're bringing 300 rounds, if you use all that up, um, that's an awful. Is that what you normally is something in that range?

Yeah. I mean, it's standard. It'll be like 210 rounds. And, you know, it's interesting on, on some missions, people bring less on some bring more and it's a lot on what your comfort level is. I had, do you err which which i err right in the middle as i got older and my knees got worse i like to carry less ammo and rely on other people to do more work i said better better shot well that's the ironic thing is you know as the as the ground force commander my job isn't to be a shooter i'm i'm to kind of manage the chaos and request resources and be thinking strategically i mean it's you know just think a leadership position if you're in the mix doing it if you're working in the business and request resources and be thinking strategically. I mean, it's, you know, just think a leadership position. If you're in the mix doing it, if you're working in the business and who's working on the business and seeing that elevated, more strategic approach and where should

we be going? And in this particular fight, because half our element got chewed up pretty quickly, you know, I, I was engaging and there was, there's,'s it's a long story long but there's one weapon system that i'd used in the canadian army that we had and i was one of the few guys that used it before so next you know i'm slinging around this carl gustav rocket launcher that you know i gave a class under fire to the marines so they could do that so i could go back to do my radio work after firing a few shots which they loved it because it was mean, it was loud and got a lot of attention when you used it. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

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On the leadership bit, you've thought deeply about leadership. You've been in a leadership position under incredible duress and the most consequential of environments. Can we open that up a little bit before we finish the story? Like, how do you think about leadership? What are some of the guiding principles that have been really important for you? You know, for me, it's very much purpose-driven, you know, kind of like the Simon Sinek. What's your why?

I think it's very fundamental. And truly, it's, you know, it starts with you, right? It starts with your core. Like, why are you on this side of the grass? So if you can distill it down to purpose and then, you know, what are the chosen values I want to govern my decision-making and my actions? And when you have that purpose and you have those values as a lens and a filter to make the choices, I think you can be a truly effective leader. If you were to back up, I think it begins with self-awareness. Who am I really? Who am I? Who do I want to be? What's the path

to get there? You know, I do a lot of leadership development, both with individuals and teams. And, you know, I tell them, I go, it's not some magical principle that shows up in your professional life at work. Like it's with yourself. Can you do the hard things when no one's looking? Can you lead yourself to be, you know, the individual you feel like you're truly called to be, or do you take the easy path? And it's, it's, it's a continual fight. I go, if you can master yourself and if you're leading other organizations, especially when you're in a formal position, it becomes a whole lot easier. If you can, you know, communicate a vision and a purpose to them that they buy into and can identify with. Beautiful. I mean, really clear.

What do you do to help people understand who they are, their values and their purpose? Like, how do you walk them through that? Because the idea is as simple as you just said, I'm nodding my head going, yep, that's awesome. Right. Good science to back it up. It's been my personal experience as well, working with world's best across multiple disciplines that those three, when they're're in place it's exponentially more powerful so like how do you help people know who they are and we call it like developing your personal philosophy like it's funny you use that i was actually talking to someone yesterday about developing your your leadership philosophy which is should be closely aligned with your personal philosophy right they should not be if there's divergence there then

you've you gotta rely on you'll get exposed because like you can't you can't do that cognitive it's not sustainable yeah it's not authentic that internal alignment to so it creates this great freedom to be yourself anywhere you go and if you're one way at home or one way as a leader and another way you know fill in the blanks wherever you are that's that's a disaster. That's exhausting. Yeah, that's, yes. So what do you do to help people know who they are, their personal or leadership philosophy? So, you know, and you're probably far more familiar with the kind of quantitative assessments and things that can help maybe illuminate to folks some of their areas of strength. Yeah, I think assessments are cool.

It's a data point yeah it's a conversation starter as for me much more than as a diagnostic tool absolutely it's yeah it's and i'll i'll do that occasionally with folks to be like what what do you think is is it interesting do you agree disagree do you see it's it's like is there a tool that you have found to be useful i i mean i i like just i'm i'm kind of on this daniel goldman richard boyatzis uh and mckinney kick right now so the eqi 2.0 emotional intelligence we had daniel on he was awesome i am wildly jealous and thanks now i'm now i'm all the more got imposter syndrome don't do that yeah um no but so so i mean i'm a fan of eqi 2.0. I mean, to me,

it's, it's a conversation starter. It's not definitive when I really work with folks. And this is what I found to be truly effective is, is just asking him like, like, it's as simple as tell me, tell me about yourself. What do you like? What do you dislike? What do you think you're good at? Okay, now let's start. And, and I had a leader he told me this um nick nicholson he's retired four star now but we are paths intertwined for like 20 something years and he is he's like total authentic consistent leader and is four star the highest or it is so i think omar bradley's a five star but you gotta have like a world war or something going on to get that kind of okay yeah um but yeah within you know recent you know since like the 50s or whatever four stars about as as high as you're

gonna get and then you realize you still work as high as you're going to get. And then you realize you still work for someone and you're like, dang it, I've got to keep churning. Yeah, right. Everyone's got a boss. But he told me when I was a lieutenant, he goes, hey, where your passion and your talent intersects, like that's where you need to be. That's where you're meant to be. Because there's a lot of things I'm good at that I'm not particularly excited about. And there's a lot of things I'm good at that I'm not particularly excited about. And there's a lot of things I'm excited about that I'm not particularly good at. Uh, but then

there's this, you know, if it's a Venn diagram, there's that overlap and that sweet spot going, okay, I think there's something here. And I don't think purpose is, you know, Hey guys, take 10 minutes and define your purpose. To me, it's, it's almost like you're digging for a vein of gold. Right. And like you find a little piece and you're like, Oh, this is, there's something here. Let me dig a bit more, explore a bit more. And I think you need to take action to develop it and then reassess like, is this, am I still hitting? Am I, am I in line with it? I love this idea because it's a work in progress. And we, we do this oftentimes with companies as well as like, we'll set aside time in, in one of the trainings that we're doing for them

to identify their purpose identify their personal philosophy fill in the blanks and the joke is like you know we're gonna we've got a tattoo artist that's coming in you know anyone who wants to get a neck tattoo you know of your philosophy no problems but it can't be done in 10 minutes like or 30 minutes even but that idea of a vein of gold yes and then what we found is when people say it out loud that it becomes a forcing function for truth or not once you once you put words to it once you articulate it you have a start point your journey's begun oh that's cool that's your start point yeah that's it to me it's like ditto and you know i i work very much in kind of an experiential realm with leaders now where we'll put them through things.

You take them into the country, into the back country. Kind of the back country, the mountains, on the water. I mean, that's what I was just doing yesterday out at Pismo out in the Pacific on a kayak, like looking for Bruce the Great White Shark that was out there. And then we were up in the mountains doing some work. And it was all about we were trying to set conditions for how could this help people see different perspectives of themselves. But it's again, to me- What's the name of your company?

Stonewater Training. There you go, cool. And it's like, it's the same with values, right? Like, and I have a different pattern for helping people identify those, but it's that concept of start with something and then start working and refining and reviewing. When I look at my personal purpose,

it kind of breaks down into three pillars. And I probably haven't named it until about five years ago. And I played around, massaged it, and it'll probably change a little down the road as I learn more about myself and where my strengths and ability to impact things really are. Yeah, it's malleable. That's cool.

So what are the three pillars that you're working from? Yeah, I think number one for me is connect and inspire, meaning building meaningful relationships with people and helping them kind of identify and elevate who they truly are. It's not a numbers game. It's not about finance or position. I mean, that oftentimes does follow when people are in the right place doing the right things and it's authentic. But I don't think that's a metric for success. And so that's kind of pillar number one is connect and inspire. Pillar number two is do good. And I know that's good is a very subjective and can actually be kind of a dangerous word. But I look at, you know,

my 22 years in the military, I always made, you know, we talked about this earlier. I made the best decision I could with the information I had. I and I wanted the net good sometimes you're confronted with dilemmas where there's no good um and it you know it's that what is that uh psychological philosophical test yeah the trolley you can flip a switch you can kill these you know five people you know or 50 people you don't know like what's the right answer you know or it's I probably totally butchered it um no you you got the spirit of it right. Yeah, we're in the vein of it. But the whole concept is sometimes there's just no good answer. And, you know, when I wrapped up my time and you back off and look at what you did strategically, you go, huh, is the world net better or net worse for what I did? And I don't unequivocally always go, oh, it's definitely better for what I did.

I go tactfully on the ground. I did the best I could with what I did. And I don't unequivocally always go, oh, it's definitely is better for, for what I go tactfully on the ground. I did the best I could with what I had. I don't know if it was always the best, like you get older and you sort of look back and you just, what if, and that could be whatever job I had. So I told myself moving forward, I want to be in a realm where, where I can, I can make a positive concrete difference with individuals, organizations, my family, myself, whatever it is, where there's just not a lot of gray area. And you're pushing and challenging people, but you're doing it to elevate them. And so I was like, if I can fall back on that as a touchstone, and that's what I'm pursuing, then I'm feeling pretty good. And my last is push my limits. I mean, it's, you know where where's my boundary where's my edge

physically mentally spiritually emotionally um let me let me get up to the edge get comfortable on the edge and then see if the edge moves a bit more and keep kind of nudging it and it does it's so awesome like i i love it and i love sharing that with people yeah that i see you light up when you say it it's um it's the thing that drove me more than anything is that feeling of the unlock that only happens in that messy edge. Like even if it isn't actually dangerous, but it feels dangerous,

that messy edge where you're not all buttoned up and it's by definition, competencies are being challenged, like really challenged. the unlocks that happen there are i'm so rich oh yeah between comfortable and impossible like i love that that sweet spot comfortable and impossible yeah okay so when you let's do the emotional bit for just a moment your emotional edges how do you work in those like what are some of the triggers that get you into that emotional uncomfortable zone that we're talking about? And then how do you work when you're in

that state? Yeah. So for me, it's, it's interesting, especially if you look at, you know, my professional past, you know, in the military, but you know, I don't enjoy interpersonal conflict. I don't like arguing. I don't like calling people on the spot. I don't like being direct. Consequently, I know this about myself. So I look for opportunities in a constructive, professional, connect and inspire type way to address things that should be addressed. And some of the examples are absolutely ridiculous, but I do it purely because it's uncomfortable, but not impossible. So for example, my son i uh montana's kind of home for me we live in oregon now but my wife's in med school it's a whole different story that's just what 43 year old mothers of eight do um who already have an amazing professional career 43 year old mother going to med school

of eight children yeah and she does ironmans and marathons it's just a ridiculous she's probably not human yeah so i but we need to have her on like uh you would be it like how does she do that i think she has some supplements that aren't legal that i don't know about but um the whole thing is big your life is big you've done amazing things and you support people in amazing ways and you're supporting your wife and eight kids and that gets a big life with your military experiences which we're gonna come right back to the story in a minute but where is if your wife was here what's her name uh tana tana if if she was here what would she say your blind spot is? Like, what's the thing that like. Brevity. Really?

She would. Yeah, she's probably say brevity and perspective. You know, I mean, and we're all creatures of perspective in the here and now and what we see. Right. We're talking about with a few holes drilled in it, trying to interpret all the signs around us. And so, you know, I'm like everyone. She'd probably be like, well, you know. That you're too brief. No, no. She'd say brevity is like i have no brevity like i what does that mean as demonstrated

by this conversation we've gone on 37 different tangents in about 11 minutes oh i see she would say yeah i i actually like it so what are some of your other blind spots because i'm seeing you as one of the best in the world at what you've done. Man, I like you. You like that, don't you? Tell me again. Let's dig into that. Yeah.

Can we pull on that thread? So what are some of your blind spots? Because I think what you're going to do is give a gift to other people. So if you say, or if I were to say, yeah, listen, I'm just kind of anxious. Or I've got this that I'm working on that's kind of messy and whatever it is, other people will be like, oh, I got that too. And I can be like on a path of. So I think it's interesting and you'll probably appreciate that, but I think strengths and weaknesses are really two sides of the same coin. So I think

the blind spots and areas that I'm challenged with also have served me really well in other environments. So I know, for example, my impulse control is at about zero. Meaning I move, I make decisions very quickly. I act quickly. I commit all kinds of stories. I could go in with that. I'm not going to in the interest of staying on task. That has served me really well, probably about 90% of the time when I was leading people in crisis type situations where you didn't have the luxury to fully analyze. And you had to quickly, you know, again, going back to like Blink, right? You're like zig instead of zag. Let's execute. All right. I'm just feeling this.

That served me well there. Now, as a business owner, as someone who's working with clients, that impulsivity, that speedy decision-making isn't the right answer all the time. Again, there's a time and place. Bear rips into your tent. It's good to act quickly. But when you're deciding, you're working with someone on a three to five year strategy,

you know, for, for their growth or innovation, um, you don't want to be flippant with those decisions. You want to be deliberate and a little more calculating because you can, and it's right. So that's one of yours. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And then how do you counterbalance it? How do you work with that? Yeah. So going back to, I'm married and, um, yeah, I, I get, I get checked by this rockstar wife of mine. He's like, really, do you think that's the best thing to do right now? And I'm like, I hope it is. I just transferred all our money into it. We're Bitcoin all the way, babe. At which point I sleep on the couch for a year until we figure out how to reverse the Bitcoin. That did not actually happen. That's

a hypothetical story, but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story. Okay. That's good. No. So I mean, seriously, I just, I have to deliberately pause before making concrete let the truth get in the way of a good story okay that's good uh no so i mean seriously i just i have to deliberately pause uh before making concrete decisions it's that whole i mean abraham lincoln did it right i'm gonna write an angry letter to the generals who are ticking me off in the civil war i'm gonna sit on it for a day and then i'm gonna fold it and put it in my top drawer and not send it it's it's the email you write that you don't send. It's venting to a trusted agent and them going, yeah, I get how you feel. That should probably stop here. So, you know, it's the compensatory mechanisms for me a lot of times is, hey, who's that deliberate analytical person in my corner that, you know, I can share with?

And I was fortunate. I was in some organizations where I was able to totally stack my team. And so you could, i knew my personality profile i had good visibility on blind spots i could plug in other senior leaders like you're going to check me on this you're going to check me on that i'm gonna i'm gonna actually nudge you a bit and push you a bit but together we're we're deadly um okay you know okay cool all right cool that's that's awesome let's go back to your story like we we, we, we got to the place where, um, your 10 hours or 11 hours, whatever it might be into the firefight. And now, now what's happening. So we're in a bad situation. We had no air support,

no medevac. We're still taking casualties. We're fighting enemy within who are underneath it. And these tunnels are coming from without, uh, in the surrounding districts and they're coming in numbers we captured one of the radios or afghans giving us reports from what they're talking to each other on the radios and it's bad um our quick reaction force the people we call to come rescue us they get hit and their vehicle gets blown up and so now they're stuck, and they need rescuing. So now the people we're called to help, we have to fight our way to them to help them, which we do. And then we link up, and it's kind of that classic, you know, your worst day becomes your best day. So we were fighting tooth and nail, really because we didn't want to be a story on the news the next morning about the Green Beret team that got wiped out in northwest Afghanistan.

Like, we did not want to be that story. We link up with the guys who had, and the gals who had come to kind of pull us out of this mess. And they were down to like one vehicle. They were surrounded. They're getting low on ammo. And I remember we're absolutely on three sides just taking fire. And the enemy's getting bolder and bolder and they're closing in on us and i'm like this is awesome i go they're so hard to find all the time and now they're everywhere so then uh working you didn't really have that thought you really did you did yeah you had that this is great we're probably that's probably a little too flippant because i mean i just sent a bunch of my guys in a big mass away that were hurt pretty bad oh so i wasn't flipping well but i was like yeah okay now it's time now we're going

to play our game and so when the enemy had come out and and now they were the ones who are the dominant force which happened very rarely in iraq or afghanistan where um you were truly outnumbered i remember thinking like man you know to our our our forebears like in these global conflicts of world war one and world war ii like this was a normal thing like i don't know if i'm gonna make it like it either was there was a parody you hardly ever experienced that as a as a u.s soldier in modern combat you know you talk to a ukrainian soldier he can tell you all about it right now um but what it's like to to fight where you're not sure how it's going to go but for us we typically had all the advantages still dangerous but you didn't worry about are we going to get wiped off the face of

the map and that thought kind of occurred to you in the back of your head a couple times on this like we don't play our cards right this can end really badly and uh but the flip side was they were so confident they exposed themselves that our aircraft no longer had to see the ground we knew there was no civilians and they've been fighting for 10 hours now so we knew there's the only people here and i remember there was a radio call that got quoted back to me once where our higher headquarters 300 miles away goes hey are there any civilians in the area i go if they do they got rpgs and machine guns so no they're shooting at us if they are like i don't know what this guy's day job is i just know he's really mad at me um and so we had it was this female squadron of f-15s that was flying overhead and they couldn't see us but my aircraft combat controller was able to to tell them where the

enemy was and give them grid coordinates and they were able to start dropping through the clouds and so all of a sudden the enemy had totally exposed themselves and we were pinned down you know on the side of this hill on a road um and had a very small position on this hilltop that was just getting hammered and all sudden bombs just start falling through the clouds and it went from a very good day for the bad guys in that area i say bad guys with air quotes to them we were the bad guys in that area. And I say bad guys with air quotes. To them, we were the bad guys. But the Taliban. It went from a really good day for them to a really bad day for them. And under that cover and pressure, we drag ourselves back to the forward operating base, which there were some Italian soldiers there.

There was a few other Americans and a few other Afghans. We crawl in and i check on them my wounded guys and we're licking our wounds like our afghans at one point you know the taliban is basically calling out to them saying hey you guys are afghans like us like just turn your guns on the americans and you know we'll let you guys go we just want the americans and our afghans were like no we're not doing that but their commanders like phil bad. Like, you know, these guys are starting to make decisions about their own life and I can't speak for everyone, but here's what's going on. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years,

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And now back to the conversation. So, but let's just use this as a moment for you to share your insights about teammates and teaming. Like, how do you think about a great teammate? Yeah. I think you have, you're aligned on purpose, elevated levels of trust, and it's, you know, it's built through shared experience. Meaning, we had already been through a lot of hard stuff with those Afghans and we had, they saw us every day. We ate with them. We trained with them. Um, you know, they were our, our true teammates, peers and relationships. So that was, that was rock solid. Uh, I, you know,

we had gone out of our way for that and we had had a number of experience, less intense leading up to this. Um, how do you build trust? Is it earned? Is it given? Is like, how do you think about developing trust with other people? So I think there's a couple answers to that question, honestly. And it's kind of like, to your point, there's multiple paths to the top, right? So I think, I think trust is, I like to give people trust out the gate. You started an automatic a hundred and it's kind of now based on your actions that, that might nudge down a bit, or it might stay where it's at, but I'm going to, I'm going to choose to trust you out the gate, which I think is important as a leader. It's,

you know, it's the old Russian saying of trust, but verify. I mean, I'm not going to blindly trust, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt out the gate if we're together, especially in a high performing selective organization. Like you wouldn't be here if, if you weren't showing up with some drive and some credibility, organization like you wouldn't be here if if you weren't showing up with some drive and some credibility because it's hard to be here you know people don't end up playing for the patriots if they're not to a degree trustworthy on the on the gridiron right and i need to be careful with sports analogies because again i don't come with sports background so like i'll just put my football bat over there and we'll move forward but you know to

me trust is you have you have shared values number one uh shared values there's alignment on purpose not always the same but it it's it's supporting and parallel so you got the purpose and values are in the ballpark okay um there is a degree of competence meaning you can do your part on the team or you have the capability to learn it and you have the the drive and the humility to learn it um you know and then i think there's obviously integrity which you could say that's nested under values but to me integrity is is there congruence between your deed and work like do i know if you say you're going to do it or make your damn best to do it and i think over time when that's, and then is

that tested? Are those three things tested in challenging situations? Because everyone's awesome when things are good. That's why I think, you know, I can read a leadership book and I can, you know, John Maxwell, man, I got this nailed. But it's not until you're really challenged in a tough situation that you're like, do I, do I apply it or do I fold it up and, you know, act from a self-centered spot but when i see someone in a challenging situation i mentioned you know general mcnicholson i've seen him under extreme duress before and his values are tried and true and his his purpose was ironclad under situations where it's like if he if he continues to act and be this way it's going

to ding him personally and he's just like this is this is what i believe and this is who we are and ironically the paradox is when people can over time i think when folks stick to that you know those defining purposes and those values and they're authentic in the real over time it plays out yeah i i love that you're saying that you start with assuming best intent because the groups you're working with already have demonstrated a deep set of competencies and commitment to be at the level that you're talking about. Yeah.

The skills and the foundations there. That's cool. Now it's who are you? Now it's, yeah. I'm going to assume till I know that, you know, you're here for my reasons. You're not here for your own glory. But I'm going to watch. Yeah.

Right. And then will you confront? We have a conversation if it seems like something sideways or do you just kind of file it away it depends i'd say more often than not now i'll i'll address it yeah especially if it's if it's my organization now if i'm being brought on board to support and kind of consult or coach another organization they're like hey what do we do about like you know he's these values aren't congruent with us how do we address it i might work with them rather than me go up it's not my place uh when it's my team my family um i'll address it and

you know without going too much down the road because i think you know these are real people with real lives but i had you know someone who literally had saved my life uh on that same deployment make some really bad decisions ethically that i then had to flip and discipline him and when you settle for a low standard that becomes a new standard you know when anytime you walk by something you're establishing a new one and and people who've worked with me know i'm not the pace setting driver leaders like you know in your face and and micromanaging but i think there are certain non-negotiables and and once you sacrifice those like kiss your culture goodbye and when your culture goes goodbye or your desired culture you know over time everything else is going to crumble and there's no shortage of examples both

individually or collectively where you can see that god that, that's gold. So when you think about the mindset required to be one's very best, and when you think about, we can go back into this radical story that you're walking us through. What is the mindset to do well under pressure and under duress? And then is it separate or different from the mindset to become your very best? So start wherever you want. Yeah, that's a tricky question. I feel like I have a weasel wrestling a peanut butter in my head right now. I'm going to try to unpack what you just said right there. Wait, wait, wait.

A weasel? Wrestling a peanut butter in my head. I stole that from someone, but I really like it because I can see the analogy. So you're saying the mindset to be your best under pressure, is that different? How does that compare to the mindset? Well, I want to go into like a high pressured moment and talk about mindset. And then I also want to think about like the general mindset to become your very best. No, I think there's absolute alignment.

I'm a big believer, you know, principles are universal. Like, you know, working in the leadership front, when someone comes up with something new, you know, I work in the leadership front. When someone comes up with something new, I go, it might be new to you, but it's probably been around at least for about 2,300 years since you've been writing this stuff. I don't know, Weasel? Wrestling with Peter Pets. Yeah, that's fairly new. That came out in 2017. Okay, so I'm late to the game.

It's all good. We won't judge. That goes viral, though. I want some credit, okay? But it's just an image now. I can't get it out of my head. I'm not going to be able to focus. But I think some of the principles for peak performance are, number one, is, again, and I sound like a broken record, but it's what's the purpose?

Is it higher than you? Is it more than you? If your purpose is for your self-aggrandizement, your position, your comfort, your security, you can't excel past that because you have to assume risk. So to be at your peak, to be at your 100%, which I can go down a whole different road that I think because we're human, we probably never quite reach that, but we always strive for it. I would argue you have to be doing it for something bigger than you.

And cause doing it for you will only get you so far. Secondly, I think you need to be focused. You need to focus on the fundamentals. It's, it's not about the sexy new thing. It's, and I love this cause I worked for an organization that I used to support in different capacities. And, and, and it seemed like this organization did stuff like, it was like magic.

We didn't know how they do that so good. And then I later became part of it. You know, this was after being a Green Beret and a Ranger. And then when I was part of it, I realized we're doing the same fundamentals I learned 20 years ago as a private in the 82nd Airborne. We're just doing it with extreme precision, extreme speed

and under any condition we can execute it um i go but it's this if i distill it down there's nothing new under the sun it's just can you do it in a disciplined excellent fashion regardless of the conditions so you've got a higher purpose you have the fundamentals on lockdown because i can tweak and adjust the fundamentals to match a problem. Like you can shift and adjust how you play it, you know. And I've seen that, you know, LeBron James practices free throws, I'm sure. I don't know him personally, but I assume he does. With his football bat.

With his football bat. Yeah, I know. It's complicated. So we can get a home run. Yeah. Or the deuce or whatever it is. But the point is, like, I don't know what you're laughing at. Yeah, I know, it's complicated. Yeah, so we can get a home run. Yeah. Or deduce or whatever it is. But the point is like, I don't know, I don't know what you're laughing at.

Yeah, I don't understand. But it's one of those things where if it's a higher purpose, you've got the fundamentals nailed, and then you're focusing like point positive. You know, I'll take people, you know, on white water, whether it's kayaking or rafting, and it's one of the things I love with the guides I work with.

They always talk to people like hey we're going to point positive if something goes sideways we're going to point where you need to go what you need to do so focus on the actions you need to take don't focus on what could go wrong if i do this or if i do that or that that don't screw up mentality like that will absolutely you know be a cancer in your mind and inhibit your performance because and you probably know the psychology behind this far better than me but don't don't dwell on what could go wrong and focus on what must happen to to do this excellent and if you can get into that condition you know i think you'll excel under stress and pressure this is where team shows up

like being around people that are quote unquote experts or masters of craft is that they can help shape the image. They can point in directions that you want to go and they want to help you go. And if you don't have that type of relationship in your life, then you have to use your imagination. And the power of the imagination is radical. When you can use the two of them together, it's very special. Most people do struggle with using their imagination to see a beautiful, compelling future with precision. Yeah. So that's actually really tricky. That's why it's nice to have the old guard around that can kind of say and point to things that are to illuminate, you know, kind of like, I want to say now a chipmunk, you know, wrestling with peanut butter, just going to morph it just a little bit. Yeah. Well, that's yours. You can

trademark that. We got it. So go back just one, one level back. You've mentioned discipline a handful of times. What does discipline mean to you? Yeah. So to me, discipline means, you know, doing, doing the right thing or the correct fundamental step like i mean it depends how it manifests itself but you know having the patience and consistency to to again do the right thing whatever the conditions and in that way do the right thing say it again doing the right thing whatever the conditions whatever the conditions but you say that you're like you have an impulse control thing i i mean my natural setting does right so there there's you've had to really train that type of discipline you're talking about yeah yeah and you it's you know all

these things are it's like muscles right like you can if you can see a blind spot you can start working on it and then you can put yourself in conditions that force you to work on it uh yes the whole business model i do with stonewater is you're going to lead a group of your peers in a psychologically safe environment, but it's going to be challenging, but it's for a higher purpose. And then we're going to dissect and reflect on it. But the same principles you use here apply to use a CFO of a $80 million company or whatever it is. Uh, so to me, discipline is a, discipline is, can you do the steps required? You know, whether that's the consistent personal habits you adopt yourself on a daily basis or organizationally, like, no, we're going to stay the course, you know, on this overarching strategic

plan because, you know, we've done the work. Now I'm not, the flip side of course is that that doesn't mean being pigheaded or being stubborn. Like you also have to have awareness, both of yourself and the environment go, hey, are we on the right course? What do you do outside of a working environment to develop discipline or cognitive flexibility or patience or awareness?

Do you have any practices that you do outside of the environments where there's high heat? So you're meaning me personally? Yeah, correct. Yeah, definitely. I mean, right now, aside from trying to manage six early teenagers at home on a daily basis with their mom in med school,

that's my high stress environment, makes Syria look like a joke, you know? But, you know, I'm a big believer in, probably like a lot of folks who come on here in a very disciplined morning routine oh you are it starts with breath work it starts with movement uh i you know jason selk i don't know you seem to have everyone on this show so maybe he has or he's a future guest but from the sports psychology background 10 minute toughness like i'll use a modified version of his you know mental toughness drill but i'll

apply it to my day so i'll kind of go through you know my identity statement you know my purpose statement uh how are my values you know when i talk about faith integrity discipline love and excellence how does that manifest on april 20th and i'm just you know i visualize a movie of the day and okay well how do i what's integrity look like here when I'm talking to Mike? I mean, it's cut down on the, make sure the stories are at least 30% true. It's a muscle I'm working on. But I mean, so I'll kind of work through that. So there's a physical, mental, and even emotional piece to my daily practice that I'll try to incorporate. i'll try to carve out deliberate times during the day to kind of recenter especially if i find myself getting emotional or reactionary

in a situation i'll like stop you know do some some breath work and literally i'll recite to myself what's my purpose what are my values what would the person i want to be do in this situation whether it's as a spouse or a parent or, you know, an athlete or, you know, a leader. And then, and then I, and then I act like that person, even if I don't feel like it. Yeah. You know what I would suggest there is like call up because you have acted with great benevolence or kindness or courage fill in the blank. Can we explore that a little bit more? Yeah.

And so it's not like the fake it till you make it thing makes me cringe. And I'll tell you why it's because you already know how to act with fill in the blank value or virtue. So it's calling that up to the surface. And even if it's for three seconds, but you're calling from an experience that you've had, not like I need to put on something that I don't understand. So it's like dipping in. And even if it's only for three to six seconds, and then you maybe have to recalibrate to bring it up for another three to six seconds, but it's that, that instead of like, I got a fake confidence or fake something,

it's like come from a place that's true and authentic. Yeah. And it's, it's linked to purpose, right? And values like like the core like it's so much easier when those are in place those big rocks are in place and you're like no no this is this is who i want to be i've done it before let me exactly let me bring let me bring that best part of phil forward and and let them take place yeah and what gets in the way of the best part of phil coming forward i think the natural reactionary emotions and again being being passionate, being able to act with force in the past had a time and place.

That's a cool statement. So you're not acting with that type of force. Yeah, but that's not, and even, I would argue, even in the high stress situations, emotion was present, but it very rarely was helpful. Anger, fear, anxiety, frustration frustration like it's you know would you go numb or would you work with speed with the emotion it's depend on the situation i'd love to say no i just totally could could shelve it and um i ironically for me personally in combat emotion really wasn't a huge factor.

Every now and again, there would be kind of like a pressure to perform, like, oh, I need to lead better. I need to, you know, I need to do, like, I would feel like I sucked. So there'd be a little bit of that emotion of like, ah, you know, I don't know if insecurity is the right word to say,

but almost like an imposter syndrome, especially when I worked with some pretty high-end organizations. But fear, anger, those things typically wasn't present in combat because it was so demanding. Like you had to be on your A-plus game. And as a leader, if I was doing the right thing, my emotion, my thoughts, my feelings,

they had to go on the shelf because i was focused on the you know 700 folks i'm working with or you know what like it's you've got to be you're not looking in you're looking out so it it really wasn't a huge part and again i you can call up some other people and they'll they might throw the bs flag be like oh my god no i saw him crying once um it's like yeah because i ran out of snickers bars and i was really hungry that's totally different but um what so how do you recover from those hard conversations or those hard experiences that are you know taxing what what is your recovery process in the sense of like where i you know felt like an imposter it's a no no. Like when you have spent a lot, your resources, you've had to dump a lot of resources to be able to do this

hard thing, whatever the hard thing is, whether it's, you know, deep force from your previous work or your line of work, or it's a really hard conversation that's emotionally charged. You know, I'd say that's probably a weakness of mine is how to rest and recharge and recover and refit. I tend to very quickly shift my sights on the next thing. So what is high ground for you? Like what do you do for high ground? We all need high ground. Like kind of how do I disconnect and recenter?

Yeah. For me, it's definitely nature. There's a reason I do what I do, you know, outside in my best environment. It takes care of you in that way. definitely nature. There's a reason I do what I do, you know, outside of my best environment. Takes care of you in that way. Yeah. I think there's, there's something so powerful about even, even last night I was in the mountains, just looking at the night sky and it's both this, I had this sense of, I am so insignificant and nothing, and I'm everything at the same time, like the perspective and the reality of what's going on in here in the greater scheme is such a small part. It's my entire world, but it's it's a less than a speck of dust when seen in everything else and i think that perspective is

really peaceful to me and really gives it kind of gives you the sense of like it's it's it's okay it's it's gonna be okay we're a flash in the pan we're we're we're a blink of light it's our blink of light so make the most of it but it's you know the things that bought you know it's kind of like that 10-year rule in 10 years will this will this truly matter and there are some things that do i mean it's you know again my last line of business sometimes you're talking to someone's spouse and tell them like your other person isn't coming home um that that's going to matter in 10 20 70 years but so much of what we deal with especially those kind of impulsive emotional reactions that's not so yeah my high ground is is the ocean the mountains yeah so that's that's what fuels you

okay um or provides respite you know and embedded in even something that's challenging to do, kayaking or whatever you're doing, mountaineering. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas

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point is that I spent a long time, more than a decade helping NFL teams understand selection as well, both on both sides, from the player side and then for nine season with the Seattle Seahawks. And it's a full team that does it. Yeah, it's a full team that does it. It's not one person, the team is rad. The scouts up there are incredible. I want to ask you a bunch of questions now about Pete Carroll and the Seahawks

because that's a cultural phenomenon. I dig. What little I've learned about it, I'm like, this would be cool. We probably don't have time for that. It was special. We can go for sure, but it was special. One of the things that was like a go, no go for me was low trust. So if the person had low trust, they're really hard to fold into a system. They're really hard to be part of something.

They're very difficult to coach. So the challenge was extremely high talent low trust yeah right so they're big earners if you will yep and they have demonstrated or explicitly said i'm not going to trust people individual performers cancer to a team right yeah so so so i want to know big big swath like what do you look for in talent selection and then specifically drill into that one so i i look for versus skills, meaning if you have the right person, the right mindset, you know, I can trust you, you're adaptable, you're committed, uh, and you have a baseline of competency, or if you demonstrated the ability to learn, I can bolt any skill on you. I have seen flute players become elite special operators in the space of about two years look that that's

that's like a real example i won't go any further into it but like it's the right person um you know they were committed our our process was able to identify that they and i won't go deep into the weeds but it's it's the whole if you look into, you know, special operations around the world, the ones that are kind of the standard bearers, the majority of them in the ones that are sustainable and good over time select on attribute versus skill. Now it's nice if they have the skill too. But the, the danger is you get the person who's a 10 on skill and about a three on values and that will destroy your organization you you just described with the high performer and the low trust that's right like this person's amazing you see their their their combine score like

that's right but then uh you bring them out there and it's like yeah he individually does well but the trust not there the team can't perform i take a team of sevens and eights and like the team i'm sharing the story with you in afghanistan we were not the top tier in special operations we were good but we had very deep trust for a number of reasons and that paid off in spades not just on that deployment that mission but on countless others. And I mean, we're still in touch now, 16 years later, whatever it is, math in public, always dangerous. You know, it's interesting. I worked with Montana State's football team

and basketball team a bit and really cool dynamic. They let me work with them on culture and leadership. And I hope they don't mind me sharing this but they they were unranked uh in 2017 they've gone to national championships twice in the last two years and it's to me and there's there's great coaching and great development all kinds of stuff going on there but to me i look at it through my lens and i i have seen a culture and leadership shift over time and it's been directly as a result some of the coaching staff and the leadership there which is neat because it spanned two coaches but they adopted the same approach different manifest differently but it was the same core principle and fundamentals

and I remember initially working with coach Jeff Choate and they had some players at what you described extremely high transfers, you know, big school, East Coast, put up great numbers individually, but the commitment wasn't there. The trust wasn't there. And then he had some other pretty good players that were extremely high on trust, natural leaders, servant leader, like just by their presence and how they acted, everyone was better around them. And they were pretty good too. You know, Troy Anderson plays for the Falcons now is like one of these individuals and, and, and there's ways to assess it and find that. And it was really cool because when he kind of swallowed it, it was like, Hey, we're, we're going to let some of these high performers just kind of go their way. We're going to let some of the 10s go because it actually brings the team down to four.

And we're going to just pour into the six to the eights, if my number analogy makes any sense. And then the whole team started rising up. And it went nuclear. And there was all kinds of fun ways to do that. We had one of the most special talents in the world on our team. And he heard us six days a week. And then on the seventh day, he would hurt the competition. And so he was that special. But he was hurting us six days a week.

Yeah. So it's like the math didn't, that doesn't make sense. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And it's interesting because it's so on the surface it's easy to fall in love with skill and performance on game day but it's everything you know it's the rest of the iceberg under the water who are you as a person what kind of liabilities do you bring to the table do you elevate other team members like i love um it was a book captain class they

talk about the the glue guys right you. You know, that they're in, they're all heart. That's right. Everything's it's, it's all about the team and it's bigger than them and they do insane things. So what are the attributes that you listed a few of them, but what are the core attributes that you're attending to? You know, I think it depends on, you know, the organization and the mission, but key things I look, I think you hit on trust. That's huge. Adaptability is, is really good. Again, depending on the field, you know, the organization and the mission, but key things I look, I think you hit on trust. That's huge. Adaptability is really good. Again, depending on the field, you know, if there's some stuff where I'd say precision is key, but if you're trying to build a high performing team that is going to tackle situations in an ambiguous, unpredictable environment, which I would argue

the world is hashtag COVID, like weird stuff happens that we have no say in. Um, so, Hey, can you trust them? Are they adaptable and are they committed all in for the purpose? Do they like, are they, yeah, I'm all about it. And, um, those are three heavy ones. I think discipline is, is a great one as far as, you know, someone who's disciplined will learn the process. You can give them the playbook, they'll memorize it it they'll execute it they'll progressively get better and and that's you know he might not show up at a 10 he might show up at a 6 but you'll get him to that that 9 or 10 he's committed he's got the discipline he's adaptable he can read himself adjust the environment and he's trustworthy so he elevates

those around him that's what's up so back back in afghanistan you are um you just had great air support now you're in a position you're like finally okay now we got them right where we want them type of idea but you're you're outgunned at this point oh yeah heavily and and we're by this point we really are getting low on ammo so i've been talking earlier about how you know as the ground force commander my job's not to be pulling a trigger because then i'm just one person doing work my job is to synchronize and coordinate the other 60 marines green braids and afghan commandos who are with me plus the air support plus the medevac plus the reinforcement so like with my radios i go from one person to you know a, a team of thousands, right? Spread out all over, even beyond the country. But because of the nature of that engagement, I'm right there

throwing grenades and fighting alongside, you know, these other, these other folks. Gary actually wrote a book, a small part of it is in it, this engagement, it's called Dagger 2-2. He was one of the Marine special operators who came out on the the force to rescue us that then they got hit um but we i'm getting low on ammo now like i'm the i'm the last guy should be shooting this organization i'm like i'm out of grenades i'm down to about you know a magazine and a half left like we need to limp back and we have people now we have people who are injured that we're trying to bring with us. And so we ended up going, it was probably about, I don't know, three to five kilometers. It seemed like it was about an ultra marathon, but it wasn't that far if I look at it on the map, that we had to move ourself to get to this little Alamo fort and kind of lick our wounds.

It's pretty funny because they had one vehicle, one armored vehicle had made it out from the fort to halfway to our position. We were able to get to it. The one that was still working, one was blown up and one was still working. And when this thing would move, it was getting shot from all sides. You would see like about 30 people moving in its shadow, just like, oh, please. It's just kind of one of those memories I have. And there's some pretty crazy video out there. You know, I can even share with you that kind of show a bit of this down the road. Um, but we get back and we, we thought it was an Epic defeat. We thought, Oh my God, we went out there and we just got our ass handed to us. And the Afghans were like, this was no good. Um, and that lasted about 12 hours till we started

getting reports from what happened on the other side, which was, they were like, what just, what happened last night? Like every day they go, something just flipped the whole power dynamic in this, you know, Balmergamp district just flips. And, um, where we, you know, so it's one of those things where in the moment you're like, I'm getting crushed as a leader. Like I was expecting to get fired when I came back. I remember at one point, this general who's on the radio like yeah you guys just need to hold your ground you made progress out there like just hold what you got and i'm like yeah no man i'm down to my last battery for a radio and i've got like 20 rounds and i'm the ground force commander like and we can have the rest of this conversation

once i get my force back behind the wire but not today boss and uh we went back and yeah there was a pretty direct conversation i was expecting to get fired and he was kind of more just you know because he wasn't there and didn't see it and didn't like this was not a normal situation he's like why are you guys like you're putting the boots to him like stay out there and i'm like the boots are going both ways boss just so you know um but we realized within about 12 hours that that we had actually achieved a tactical level, a pretty significant blow to the enemy that we were then able to capitalize on about two days later when we really went out for good and shifted for good. Again, in air quotes, something that lasted several years and we shifted the dynamic heavily to follow up on it. And even our Afghans about

12 hours later, you would have thought they had like saved the world. They're like, Oh, that was pretty, pretty great. I'm like, weren't you talking to Taliban? I'm going to shoot me in the back, like not 13 hours ago. And now you're telling me like, what a bad-ass come on guys. Yeah. So when you got recognized for that, like it was a surprise or at some point you knew that, okay, that something happened and this is a pretty cool experience i knew it was a pretty special experience but it was one of those where everyone on that element had done some pretty incredible things um i i know unequivocally there's people who did a whole lot more than than i personally personally did out there that I, that I think should have been recognized a lot more than they were. Uh, everyone was,

was recognized in some capacity. Uh, it, a lot of it comes down to perception and they're like, well, you, you were going above and beyond and yeah. And that's their words, not mine. I would argue, no, I was actually just really just wanted to make it back in time for lunch. I mean, I was getting hangry. So. Okay. So on that note, when you're talking about your teammates and, you know, your partners in the experience, like you've memorialized them with a tattoo on your arm. Can, can you just kind of walk me through the choices that you made and, and what it

is? Yeah, absolutely. So these are all people that I served with in some capacity. And I'd say to a degree, all of them were friends at some point. And I'd say each of them left a little piece for me to carry forward. I see it as part of why I do what I do is, and the whole do good thing is i want to be the the spouse the parent the citizen the friend um you know the person of faith that they can't be

anymore and and each of them have taught me something about leadership wow uh so the whole construct of stonewater part of that is all we've little pieces of their stories and i don't like doing it like oh i'm capitalizing on their memories or their stories to make money. It's not like that. But I really do try to weave it in and carry it forward because they're a hell of a legacy. So Jay Blessing was killed the 14th of November, 2003 in Afghanistan.

He's actually was in a truck that I had been using. But then I was walking up a valley and he was driving up it. And he had an IED, an improvised explosive device and was killed and jay was just that quiet hard-working ranger um he's not a not a flashy glory guy his hair is mediocre at the best of days he actually has shaved head but just just just that that workhorse type personality. And, and, you know, I just learned from him, like humble workman attitude about things. Uh, Pat Tillman, uh, you know, pretty famous, uh, you know, NFL football player who didn't feel right playing a game on any given Sunday when

people were deploying, uh, John Krakauer's book on him. I actually really appreciate it. I felt like it was a pretty good, um, accurate accounting of the story. Uh, but he, he was one of those people that taught me that leadership is wildly independent of your formal position. He just led by example in all that he did, whether it was from what I'd heard on the football field to what I personally saw when we were both in second range of dying together. And I'd had maybe 10, 15 conversations with him over time. And every time I walked away, like I need to be a better person. And I would just watch how he would interact with people. I love those people in my life my goodness and he would be totally humble and respectful and i'm just like you really don't have to call me sir anymore like you're you know

and uh it so so he uh and he even how he died you know it was a really tragic situation and pat is stepping up trying to influence it for the better and putting himself in a wildly dangerous position pays for it with his life again under you know just totally lousy conditions and there's a lot of confusion and mess that comes after it um but pat taught me you you lead independent of your position leadership is leverage and influence to achieve an impact nothing there about being the ceo or the head coach. Say it again. Leveraging influence to achieve an impact. To me, that is the truest essence of leadership. My kids lead me sometimes, you know, by their example, by their words. And other times I have to hook them by the nose and

lead them because they're wild, crazy kids. It's it's like no you can't throw axes indoors without eye protection uh ben ben tiffner was a special forces team leader who died in iraq november 2007 um ben ben was just someone who was was humble quiet kind of modeled away and he had this really quiet way he lived his faith that i thought was super cool it wasn't preachy it wasn't in your face but you you kind of could tell what he believed in, where he stood on things just by the words and decisions that he would make and the acts he took, which I thought was cool. Uh, Chris Shaw, he was someone that, uh, you know, I, I'd known for years, we went through ranger school together. So we both got really hungry. He's, he was a lean endurance athlete. He's the only guy I know who probably

gained weight in ranger school. Like he had one meal a day and like, this isn't bad. Everyone else was like shedding the pounds. Chris went in like 135 pounds and went out. He actually died in the Philippines. He was working on a school construction project as a, as a green beret engineer sergeant and him and another gentleman named Jack Martin were blown up in their vehicle heading back to this site. And it's one of those little known, you know, people don't think of the Philippines as American soldiers that are doing things and they weren't there for the purpose of combat, but they were in a conflict zone and paid their price. White Goldsmith, that's the medic I shared with you. He was shot through the foot on that mission that I had to basically order him on the last medevac out because he's like,

I'm fine. He's like, I tightened my boots. I'm good to go. And every time he had stepped, blood would squirt out at the top of his foot and he was treating everyone else at the expense of himself. And I'm like, why are we going to walk like five miles back? And I think we're going to be getting shot the whole way. You're like 230 pounds. I don't want to carry you. Please get on the helicopter. And then finally I had to play the paper rock rank card and I won. You did? Yeah. Seriously. Get out of here. No, not really. Rock, paper, scissors? You just said I'm outranking you.

Yeah. We used to call it let's play rock, paper, rank and see who wins. I got it. Of course. Rank always wins. So I was going to win. It's ironic because he dies in his next deployment. Again, under fire, treating two Afghan commandos in the south of Afghanistan.

And he's literally in the act of treating them when a rocket propelled grenade comes over the wall that he's behind explodes takes his life instantly but he's it's one of those things where you go it's tragic but it's you know it's fairly scientific fact that most just die at some point i'm like that is you doing exactly what you felt called to do in the most extreme circumstances surrounded by people who loved you i'm like that is you doing exactly what you felt called to do in the most extreme circumstances surrounded by people who loved you I'm like that is It's a tough story to beat Pat dolphin That's the Marine Special Operator who had his antenna and grenade launcher shot off and then his pack of cigarettes

Which we'll talk about that later He he was killed in an accident Afghanistan on the follow-on deployment. Both him and Wyatt were killed about 15 days apart and it was about a month after I'd lost my mom. So that was actually a pretty rough year for me. But Pat was just, you talk about that disciplined, gritty warrior who was always doing things to get better. He was that guy. Ben Wise, there's a really cool book written about him and his two brothers called Three Wise Men. His brother was a Navy SEAL and CIA operative who was killed a year before Ben was. Ben was a Green Beret, uh, Sergeant who, uh, worked with me in first special forces group.

Uh, he lost his life in Northwestern Afghanistan. Uh, he was a special forces medic. And again, kind of that same thing. He was shot and injured going to help some other folks. Again, it was that whole show myself. This is this is a higher cause than me. I will expose myself to try to help others. He ended up paying for with his life, but just this legacy of humble servitude and leadership in the most gritty, real way possible. Josh Wheeler was in the U.S. Army Special Operations Command. He was the first American service member killed fighting ISIS. He was on a prison rescue raid. Their partner force was getting pinned down in northwestern or northern iraq i'll just leave it at that and um he basically with his other american his element said on me like he just saw the situation needed

something to change it and so he he led his way right into the uh kind of into in in the mouth of line for lack of better word or into into that you know into that building. He paid for it with his life. The other person who went in with him was able to neutralize the threat. They ended up rescuing 70 prisoners who were slated for execution the next day on that mission. It's the same mission where Pat Payne earned the Medal of Honor, which that story's available open source and well worth reading. Pat's another good friend of mine and just amazing person uh and then the last is john dunbar who was again just kind of that humble servant leader absolute workhorse he died in syria 30th of march uh 2018 and uh he was just again i could identify with him because he didn't come from like ultra high speed roots. He wasn't an NFL player or a college athlete. He was just a humble, hardworking soldier who joined young and

just ground his way through it and ended up at the highest level in the special operations community. And his, his core attributes did not change a lick. He was just humble, disciplined, you know, could push through intolerable amounts of pain and could be relied on, you know, that trust element to do the right thing, whatever it was. So yeah, I know I probably went long there talking about that. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. I haven't lost that many friends. So how do you deal with the grief? And I'll be totally candid. It's one of those hard things because there's a lot of other stories and people that probably have their place.

But I run out of skin because I have tattoos for all my kids, and there's like 37 of those. So, you know, it's a finite amount. So it's them and, you know, probably multiply it, I'd say about by two or three for some other folks. These were ones that I probably worked most close with or had the greatest impact on me personally. As far as processing the grief, I think a lot of it is really worked for me personally. I accept the fact that we all have a finite amount of time on this planet.

No one's guaranteed tomorrow. It's what do you do with today? Find something worth dying for and pour your life into it. And I believe these people did. So I have that as kind of a bit of a consolation. So I don't, yeah, I mean, part of my heart feels empty thinking of what they would have done if their story continued.

And there's an element of survivor's guilt that comes with it too. Like, hey, how come I got lucky? I mean, I had plenty of close calls and got banged up here and there, but I get to go home to my kids tonight and get in bed with my wife. Why them, not me type thing.

And there's several of them I'm like, yeah, you're quantitatively a better human being than me. But I think part of it is just accepting that you know we don't know when our time is they they all live very full lives albeit shorter than probably any of us or they would have appreciated and certainly their family members uh and then it's how do i carry their legacy forward how do i take the best parts of them because Because they're all human, but they all had this unique essence that made them special.

And how do I ingrain that into what I do? How do I kind of inculcate that in, you know, the kids I'm trying to raise? How do I inculcate that in the teams I work with? In a humble, like you don't want to be the disgruntled or entitled vet who, you know, let me tell you about the hard stuff I've done and how you should be like, it's not about that. It's, Hey, this person was really special and here's what made him special. And here's how we can cultivate

and grow that in your organization or you as an individual leader. Um, and a lot of times it's people will ask and I'll share their story and they're like, I need to be more like that. Like, tell me about, you know, Pat Tillman in the gym, how just he would, you know, everyone else would be doing their three sets and he's doing sets between his sets and just that commitment and drive to excellent, you know, he's doing 120% work. They're like, I need to, I need to adopt that. That's awesome. So yeah, it's carrying them forward. And, um, yeah. And I mean, I, you know, I have, you know, straight up, you you know talked to professionals and therapists and tried to work through some but i i really find you know maybe something's broken in me but i'm i'm not terribly sad because to me these were great friends and and many more

and and to me it's like hey how do you carry that forward? How do you, you know, it's like kind of like that saving private Ryan, like make it, make it worth it. Right. So. That's a great, I think that's a beautiful way to end our conversation here because what you just described is practice fragility, practice the fragility of life. Right. And then have a clarity of the virtues that people have you, and then carry that forward into a brighter tomorrow.

Those three versions of practicing grief, it's pretty rad. Yeah, man. So thank you. And can I give you a couple of quick hits just to kind of round us? All right. Let Jesus take the wheel.

We'll see where this goes. These are one or two word responses. Okay. So we're channeling your wife here. It all comes down to. Purpose. Living the good life is marked by. Being happy with what you have.

Successes. Relative. The key to success is. I already said relative. I think it's, you know, going back to the first answer, it's living your purpose. Pressure comes from? Within.

I am. Learning. My vision is? It's honestly to connect and inspire. I'm confused most by? Weasels wrestling your peanut butter in my head. Yeah. All right. Um, who tells you no, who tells me no. Yeah. And I've got three teenage daughters. They all tell me. Yeah. So if you could sit with any master,

who would it be? What one question would you ask them? And where would you want to sit with any master, who would it be? What one question would you ask them? And where would you want to sit with them? Just because Ryan Holiday and all his books. I'm a big fan of Marcus Aurelius and just reading his writings. So you wouldn't want to talk to Marcus? No, I'd want to talk to Marcus Aurelius. Assuming we had a translator.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, here you are, the head of the Roman Empire empire at its peak the last of the five good emperors uh and again i'm not a history major so if i'm getting this wrong please give me grace um but here he is he's had it all and he's journaling to himself every day this stoic philosophy and how to apply it how to be a better man and half his lessons are from someone who had been a slave so he's at the highest the apex of society and he's at the highest the apex of

society and he's writing lessons he learned you know second and third hand from epictetus this crippled slave stoic philosopher um yeah forgive me for having a lack of creativity but i'd probably want to do it at maybe the drecker brewery in fargo on a summer day. It's great beer. Um, and what question would I ask him? I would just ask, well, this is harsh, but I'd ask him what he did wrong with his son. I mean, you know, what happened to the Commodus? Like you, you were the, and it just goes to show the apple can fall pretty far from the tree sometimes. know i think russell crowe did everything he could you know to to save the roman empire um but then commodus just dorked it all up yeah and i didn't even know they had cameras back then by the way so what a cool movie oh my god

all right so your philosophy you can cut that out if that was perfect your philosophy is know yourself lead yourself lead others what does that mean to you yeah i think it it really begins with self-awareness uh you know honestly seeking truth within and going what why am i on the side of the grass why have i been gifted today uh and when you can start to answer that question and start to to unearth it and and refine it uh then i think truly you can begin leading yourself to be that person and it's it's sick And it's kind of cyclical and ongoing. It's not like serial steps. Like we're all doing this all the time, right?

Like if you're a CEO, you don't have time to abscond your position of authority and go discover who you are. Like you're doing it while you're also leading. But I think as you build your internal awareness and lead yourself, that you truly become a far more effective, authentic leader. Awesome. You're a former Army Green Beret.

Yeah, and Ranger and a couple other things. What does mental toughness mean to you? Mental toughness to me is it's really being able to do the uncomfortable, hard things for a higher purpose or for a purpose. And it can be organic adversity, meaning you're just in a hard situation, i.e. you have a lot of people very upset at you and you're trying to survive the day, like April 6th, 2010 for me.

Or it can be engineered adversity where you're like, you know what, life's pretty good and comfortable right now. What's between that comfortable and impossible zone that I need to seek out to keep my edge sharp and then push to it. And that's what I do. And that's what I do for folks I work with is let's, let's push a bit. Uh, and I think that builds battle toughness. Phil, thank you for sharing a really important moment in your life, April 6th. Thank you for sharing people in your life that matter to you and inspired you. And thank you for sharing the insights you've learned from your experiences and from them. Honored to have the conversation with you.

And I laughed a lot. I appreciate you. Thank you for coming through. No, right back at you. It's humbling to be here, an honor. And yeah, thanks for your patience and ability to somewhat keep me on track. Yeah, that sounds great. All right, more to come.

Awesome. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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