Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Lessons from Outer Space and a Near-Death Experience | Astronaut, Steve Smith

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Steve Smith, one of America’s most experienced astronauts and spacewalkers, with 4 spaceflights and 7 spacewalks to repair the Hubble Space Telescope and build the Space Station.Steve dreamed of being an astronaut at age 7. Then he made his dream come true through sheer determination and intelligent risk taking. During the 3-decade pursuit of his dream he became a Stanford electrical engineer and MBA, General Motors Fellow, pilot, elite collegiate athlete, and IBM Product Manager.  At NASA, Steve held multiple senior leadership positions and served as a Diplomat.   He now uses this one-of-a-kind experience base as a board director, venture capital advisor, and keynote speaker.   I was so excited to have this conversation - for all the years we’ve been at it with Finding Mastery, we’ve never had an astronaut as a guest so this was such a treat.We discuss his experience going to space, how it changed his perspective of life on earth, the risks associated with his job, and strategies for living and working in isolation -- something that we all can relate to over these past 18 months._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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about you and what I wish for you for the future. So they've never seen those letters. Those are all thankfully still tucked away. All right. Konnichiwa. I am currently in Tokyo for the 2020 Olympic Games, and I cannot wait to share the insights and the lessons and the very applied practices that are unfolding around me every day from the world's best. And so I just want to say, welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. This is a special episode, and we're going to talk with one of the great minds, Steve Smith, who's an astronaut. And if you're new to this podcast, we take a deep dive into how people understand mastery of craft. And really what that means is we want to understand how they work from the inside out. Mastery of self first and then mastery of craft.

And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. That's what I'm doing out in the Olympic Games, supporting one of the United States of America teams. And we want to be able to dig to understand how the extraordinaries work. And that's what this podcast is about. And our minds are our greatest asset. And if you want to learn more about how you can train and condition your mind, just like the extraordinary athletes that I'm with now, and all of the professional athletes I've worked in the past. If you want to invest in the same way that they do, this is just a quick hit here and a reminder for some of you that we built an online training course with the head coach

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So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, like I said, this week's conversation is with a legend, Steve Smith, one of America's most experienced astronauts and spacewalkers with

four space flights and seven spacewalks to repair the Hubble Space Telescope and build basically the space station. Steve dreamed of being an astronaut at a young age of seven. And then after a near-death experience at age 14 and 33 years of determination and intelligent risk-taking, he made his dream come true. During this three-decade pursuit of his dream, he went to Stanford and received an electrical engineer and received his MBA. He also became a General Motors fellow, became a pilot, became an elite collegiate athlete, and an IBM product manager. I mean, all of this seems like a twisted path to become an astronaut. And then at NASA, Steve held multiple senior leadership positions and served as a diplomat.

He now uses this one-of-a-kind experience based as a board director, venture capital advisor, and keynote speaker. And I am thrilled to have a conversation with Steve about how he works from the inside out. And for all the years that we've been with it at Finding Mastery, we've never had an astronaut as a guest. How about it? So this is just a treat, a flat- out treat. I'm fascinated by how they train, how they become and the insights that they hold. So we discussed the experience of going to space and how it changed his perspective of life on earth and the risks associated with his job

and the strategies for living and working in isolation. And why that's important is because, well, isolation during this global pandemic is something that's happening for many of us. And also, introversion is an important part of the human experience. And all too often, we tend to glorify extroversion, but it is in those introverted moments that some of the most dynamic insights and learnings can take place. And those of us who lean and bend toward introversion as a way to process information and gather energy, you know, it can be a tough go for folks because, like I said, we glorify the extroverted nature and the social

gregariousness, which is really not what extroversion is about. But for those who are introverts, it can be a tough go. And so we get into this conversation about isolation, something we can all relate to over these last 18 months. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend Steve Smith. Steve, how are you? Very good, sir. Thank you so much for having me today to speak to you. Are you kidding me? Like, I'm so excited to have this conversation. I don't know how to quite capture my enthusiasm for this conversation.

So I've been spending a lot of time thinking about if we have an hour with each other, how do we best learn from you? How do I how do I you know, like there's so much I want to ask you. So I'm sorry in advance for being a complete nerd when it comes to your profession and more more specifically what you have done in the profession. So I just want to say that out front. Well, I'm incredibly passionate about the space program. So I love talking about it. I've learned so much from your other speakers, by the way. So I'm really grateful for that asset. I mean, it's just a treasure trove of good life advice. Ah, cool. Okay, good. Well, let's do some of the nerd stuff first, you know, and then, and then I've got a series of thoughts that I want to explore with you.

But I know that you're probably tired of answering these questions, but what is it like in a 24-hour period from your vantage point to see the sun rise? What is it like 10 times, 12 times a day? 16 times a day. Yeah. So like, can you just paint a little bit of what that's like? And I would love if you say, Mike, stop romanticizing it. It's really quite normal or boring after 12 hours or something like, and, but if it's miraculous for the entire time, like I want to know that too. Wow. That that's actually a really great way to explain it. It really is miraculous or magical for the entire time. I actually dream about it still five or six

times per year. And so it's great to wake up and look at my wife and say, you know, I just did another spacewalk. But in any case, you know, right in that bullet into space is this surreal eight and a half minute experience, massive vibration. And then when those engines shut off, it's like this magical place where everything just floats around. And you can imagine if we could turn the gravity off in the room you're in now, I mean, you would just kind of float out of the chair, the chair would float. It's this very magical place. It's almost like a movie. And, you know, moving large objects is easy to do. So the experience inside the cockpit where there's no gravity is just

magical. Then when you look out the window, it's really this sense of awe. You see this beautiful, beautiful blue planet floating in this vast, black, empty space, black ocean. And so for me, it really represented looking at an island in this vast black ocean. And we don't think about that every day because we can only see a mile or two, but we actually do live on an island and it's absolutely gorgeous. I really view it as kind of this stage to perform on. It's just this magical experience that we're allowed to be here and be on this stage. And when we see it from space, we realize we have to take care of the island itself. So that's why we're really big into taking care of the Earth, but also that we're really one global community. I mean, you look at the Earth, there's no border. So we really are one global community.

And that's not just a marketing term, but it's reaction. It's reality. And so because of that, we should be nice to each other, too. You know, I've listened to plenty of folks that have seen Earth from plenty. I mean, there's not many of you guys and gals, but what I'm trying to say is that I've heard that same theme before, is that there's something about getting so much space between Earth and where you're seeing it from that people tend to come back and be like, wow, we're really

small in this big thing, but we forget that because we're in our, we're one of the largest, most important things in our own life and the lives of people around us that we, you know, we lose the perspective of the one community. Why do you think that is? I think there's something more than just the vantage point, but what is happening there for that perspective to be consistent amongst people that can get that type of vantage point? Yeah. You know, I think when we view the earth from space, we recognize that, correct, we are this little teeny tiny object that is on this earth. We also realize that in the scope of time, our time on earth, maybe it's 100 years, is also very brief. And so you do have that feeling. When you come back to

earth, I think it's hard for us sometimes to remember that and practice it all the time. Because, you know, from your field of study, you know, we're kind of interested in ourselves a lot of the time and kind of our own comfort in life and all that. So I think we tend to forget that once in a while. But for me, you know, if we could fly every leader in the world in space, it would definitely be a different place here on Earth. Some people joke maybe we should, you know, leave some of them there. But, you know, I think if we could fly all the leaders in space, it would be a different place here on Earth, frankly. And that's because they would see from the vantage point that like this is a small island in the vastness of the universe. And there's something about that perspective shifting that people go, oh, we need each other or I feel differently about others. What would happen for those leaders?

I don't want to fill in too many blanks because my imagination can get wild sometimes. No, no, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, I think they would view it as one family, one place we all live together. There's no borders. We should really get along now. Of course, I'm being oversimplistic. As soon as they come back, there would be pressing issues all the way around. But, you know, that's the big picture. It would be a mind shift. And there's a great quote by Ed Mitchell. I can't remember it exactly, but he says the same thing. We should take all those rascals into space and let them see what it looks like. And then they'd get a different perspective.

Okay. I still like, I hear it and I understand it. I guess it's one of those things where you have to live it to really to embody it is the word I'm looking for or fair phrase and maybe I could ask it this way is that you've had a moment and you've had a period of time and in experiences that have shifted your perspective and transformed your understanding of humaneness and so from that how are you different from when you went to space and now your experience post-space? Yes. Well, I was interviewed once by Miles O'Brien when I was in

space one time, and he said kind of the same question. I said, well, you know, I think when astronauts come back from space, they're more open-minded people. They're more tolerant people. Certainly not perfect. But I talked to Miles about driving. And I said, you know, sometimes when someone cuts you off and you're interested in having kind of road rage and hitting the horn, I actually feel differently now that I can just kind of take a deep breath and not cause, not, you know, create anger between the two of us by hitting the horn or giving them a signal or something with my hands. And Miles O'Brien said, well, there's Steve Smith with the resolution to road rage in the world. But in any case, I think we're more tolerant to other cultures. I think we're more interested in

the team victory rather than self-absorbed victory. So in terms of maybe paying a little bit higher taxes so more people have health care, maybe be more tolerant to people coming from different countries, things like that. I think that we really in our hearts recognize that it's an island. And if we were to select six or seven people, put them on a boat and send them out to a tiny island in the Pacific Ocean, they'd get it right away. You know, I'm stuck here. I got to take care of this place. And I certainly want to be nice to other people. And so I think just on a day to day tolerance level and being open minded, I think I'm quite different than who I was before I saw this incredible place from space. How would you translate this transformation that you've had, this upgrade in the way you experience your relationships, your life perspective? How would you hope that people could experience something in the same way? And this is a loaded question because I know that there's something about the readiness for an experience because your experience is dramatic and many people have

dramatic experiences but sometimes we're not quite ready and so i don't know if there's a readiness that led you to really work um from a new perspective or if it's just like listen when you're in the midst of something that is so foundationally game shifting, you can't help but to, you can't undo what you've seen. You can't undo what you felt. So you are different. And that's the loaded question. Is it like when you go through something heavy, it just changes you? Or is there a preparation and a readiness so that when you do experience things, there can be a deep change?

It's both. Sorry to be so vague on that, but you know, there are definitely people that if you're prepared for it, you're going to adapt it more easily. That's definitely true. The astronauts. I mean, I was told over and over again, this is what's going to happen to you. And as soon as those engines shut off on that first flight, for example, you know, I could look out the front windows and see the Burt beautiful earth. And I just remember for a moment thinking, wow, that's more amazing than I could have ever even imagined. And so there's definitely that advantage I had. But there's also been astronauts who were

spiritually changed by seeing the Earth from space. And so I think you do have people that maybe aren't really prepared for it. Then they see it and they go, oh, that changed my life. I think some of the moonwalkers in particular were really changed by the perspective. Of course, back in the late 1960s and early 70s, we hadn't had 100 astronauts talk about what it was like to see Earth from space. And so there are, for example, 12 of them

on the moon surface digging for rocks, and they look up and they go, oh, look, there's the moon. And then they realize they're on the moon. And so what they're looking at is all of humanity at the time in the distance. And so that for them was something they weren't prepared for. So it's that second class of people that you were talking about in terms of, I wasn't prepared for this, but it was just so amazing. It changed my life. And several of them came back very, very different. And when you say spiritual, how do you think about a spiritual framework? Is it, I don't know if you're talking about like they adopted religion or in a more traditional sense on the spiritual side, like they had a deeper connection to the mystical part of

life. Yeah, it's both types. I mean, we've had people who are really religiously affected. I flew with some people who really kind of told me more about their feelings once they saw the Earth in space. I think for a lot of the astronauts, we're more technical people. And so for us, it's also that kind of more just essence of what we're doing is just so amazing. So I think you really have both flavors. And again, from the folks who came back from the moon, you have definitely both types of people. Can you go back to two points in time? When they closed the door and when you opened the door. So can you go back to that time when

they closed the door and your ass is strapped to, I mean, a serious machine. Can you walk me through that experience? It was a magical moment really for me because my story is it took me a long time to become an astronaut, about 33 years. And it's something I had dreamed of even as a youth. I drew these pictures when I was a little kid to be an astronaut. So for me, it was this magical moment. There was no strong fear at that moment, despite the fact that we knew that this vehicle had a chance of not making it into space. And the reason there was no fear, a couple of reasons.

One is we were super prepared. I mean, that's what the life of an astronaut is leading to your flight. You're in training. It's like being in college, basically, for a couple more years. So we were meticulously trained. And I just felt like we could react to anything.

I think there's also this little bit of self-talk where you say, it's not going to happen to me. It'll happen to somebody else. And as kind of mean as that is to say, it's just a human emotion, I think a lot of us felt on the launch pad. And I think in life, we feel that way too, right? We fly on airplanes. Nothing's going to happen during my flight. I did arrange for my wife and I at a certain point in the launch from the L minus two minute mark to the L minus one minute mark to just think about each other.

So Peggy was three miles away on top of the vehicle assembly building for that first flight. She was with our two-year-old at the time. And by the end of the flight, she was with two children. And so in that one minute, I just kind of just closed my eyes and just thought about her and just, you know, sent gratitude to her and thankfulness. We had talked extensively about what to do in case I didn't come back. She's a very strong person, independent. So, you know, that was okay to have that kind of discussion in those final minutes, just to think about that. And then that last minute, I just said to myself, you know, don't get lost in all the details. Try and absorb this amazing thing.

You're going to ride this bullet into space, four and a half million pounds, hurtling up to five times the speed of five miles per second, eight times the speed of a bullet. So just make sure you absorb it. You know, do your job, but just make sure you step back and keep the big picture. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their

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Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to Felixixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. But what is the risk of something catastrophic happening that you don't come back? Do they put a number to it? Is there a probability? Is there, like some of the projects I've worked on, there's like, okay, we've identified five areas where there's real material risk. And if we get through those five gates, there's some thing, you know, breathe a little bit because we're good. Sure. Sure. In terms of the risk that we bear when we fly into space, of course, there's all kinds of analysis on every little piece of the space

shuttle. It's really complicated. It's got like a million pieces. But again, I try and like to keep the big picture sometimes. And for me, if you look back at the space shuttle program, in the first 102, 104 flights, two didn't come back. And so, you know, that's basically one out of 50 didn't come back. And so for me, that was the realistic, realistic number. The way we dealt with that in our family is we realized that it was a noble cause. And Peggy, my wife and I discussed why I was doing it. It was to the benefit to humanity. It was the benefit to our family and to our children and our future grandchildren. I admitted that it was also selfish to fly in space because of course I really wanted the

experience. And I tell people that flying once was selfish to do two was twice was very selfish. Three was very, very selfish. And fourth was just on the border of asking for divorce. But in any case, you know, it's a dangerous business. Mike, let me add one more thing, too, is just kind of to bring people kind of behind the curtain. So one of the things I did before my flights is I wrote every member of my family a handwritten letter. And some of them were 10, 12 pages long. I was crying while I was writing and my voice cracked even while I mentioned it now. But, you know, it's pretty hard to write a two-year-old son how you feel. And, you know, the first paragraph would say, they would get these letters, of course, if I didn't come back. You know, I'm sorry that things didn't work out. I'm sorry you're

having to read this, but this is why I did it. And this is how I feel about you and what I wish for you for the future. So they've never seen those letters. Those are all thankfully still tucked away. So you wrote those letters in a post, like a premortem. Correct. Yeah. And gave them to my best friend. I said, Hey, you know, Jim, if I don't come back, can you please give them to my family? And so we still have, and people ask me, Hey, when are you going to let the children read them? Because it would be quite fascinating. And I think the best idea is that when they become parents, I'll give them the letters. And the other folks that you wrote letters to, did you give them the letters? No.

No, those were all. So all the letters were premortem. Correct. Yeah. But, you know, Mike, I'm sure in your business you've heard or suggested it's really a good thing to do to your children throughout life. And I'm so embarrassed to say many times I've said for Christmas this year, I'm going to write a letter to my children to tell them how I feel and to my spouse, how I feel and to my friends, some of them really key players that helped me along the way. And so I still have that action to take care of. And, you know, I think, you know, it's really easy to

convince yourself to do that for your family members. But I did want to emphasize, you know, there are some key, key friends I've had and mentors that, you know, really deserve to hear exactly how I feel and how their actions and their compassion and their, well, the role models that they were really influenced kind of my kit of skills. What a gift that there's some science around compliments, that this is much deeper that we're talking about, like this idea of compliments that we don't give them enough. And somehow we get it caught in our head, like the vulnerability of saying it might be too much. And there's kind

of like a, Oh, I'll get to it later. Or they know, or some sort of loop that we get in that we don't share enough compliments. And so there's some interesting research around compliments. Obviously this is much deeper, but there's probably a combination between the two. It's pretty powerful. It's funny. I don't have any hesitancy to hand out compliments. I mean, as a parent, we were told, Hey, compliment 10 times for every time you give negative, negative. But the other thing we try and do in our lives is not give out material items as much as, as gifts as an experience or an expression. And so that's why I love this idea. Yeah. Very cool. Okay, good. All right. So let's migrate just a little bit here to many people would love to sit with you and learn from you. And I just want to flip that just a little bit and say, who's one master that you would love to sit with? And, you know, where would you want to sit with them and if we could be a reductionist like if there was one question or two questions what would you want to ask so who is it where would it be

and then what would you want to ask well there's so many fascinating people out there i think you know in the last six months one person i've been really fascinated by is the rock climber, Alex Hanel, I believe is how you pronounce Alex's last name. Alex Hanel. And, you know, just watching free solo. And for me, that is in turn, you know, there's different ways you can master things. This is a skill we're talking about rather than maybe life balance. So in terms of this mastering a skill, I mean, watching free solo and watching how he mastered that not over a week or month, but it Free Solo and watching how he mastered that, not over a week or month, but it was over years and how he really thought it out. And I remember the most important sentence actually of the whole movie is he says, what I hope people don't remember is the

accomplishment of this Free Solo of El Capitan. It's the preparation that got me to this place. And it was, I mean, in the astronaut world, we prepare meticulously. I mean, we spent hours saying, what are all the bad things that can happen that we should prepare for? If you watch that movie, I mean, he picked little places on that wall. I'm going to put my foot right there the next time I come by here. And then my left hand is going to go here. I'm only going to use two fingers up here.

It was incredible. Absolutely incredible. The other, the other thing I'll mention too is, you know, I was just so impressed by the tennis player Osaka, how she was kind of taking care of her mental health. I thought, man, no one's ever done that in all in sports. Well, that's not true. Most people have not done that in sports. She said, Hey, there's something wrong with this system.

I'm going to actually do something dramatic and step out of this grand slam tennis match. And we've had, you know, other people speak up that are athletes, Kevin Love, for example, but, you know, I thought that she is really getting a handle on mastering, you know, life and how to, to, to live it. And so yes. And yes, you know, both are extraordinary. And for me, yes and yes, I should say. What would you ask if let's be a reductionist to Alex Honnold? What is the one question you would ask? Wow. So I have a theme that when we were astronauts, we were overwhelmed with the amount of information we had to deal

with. And I think all of us in today's society are just overwhelmed with noise and information and opportunities. And so I would ask Alex, how did you get rid of the noise? How did you know which bright shiny objects to focus on? And which ones did you just go, let it pass? You know, how did you find that and and simplify your life to do something so amazing i mean there's so much there's so many distractions mike there's just so many distractions you know i love that question i talk about the signal to noise ratio all the time snr and i know it's an engineering term that you're very familiar with it's also a psychological, you know, formula. And so for you, what is the noise in your life right now? Or what has been the noise? Either way? Yeah, well, so about, gosh,

40 years ago, I had a near death experience just four or five miles from here was in a hospital for 11 days with significant internal bleeding. Anyway, I came out of that 11-day experience with my life, of course, but also kind of this new perspective on how to live life. And one was to lead as simple as life as possible. And so it's been actually pretty easy for me to not get too distracted by bright, shiny objects. I think the internet has made it more difficult because it's right there. It's so interesting. There's so much information. There's so much clickbait out there, for example. And so that for me is a big temptation all the time. And so, you know, I try not to own too many objects. So I try and lead a simple life in terms of that,

try not to have too many objects. I think giving things up that have been in your life for a while is also difficult, but it's necessary. So if you have this priority list of things that are important in your life, and it doesn't have to be written down, but at least things are kind of ranked. I'm almost certain that there's things on that list that if you really focused on them, you should let go of them. And so I'm embarrassed to say that one of them for me was a car. At the age of 16, I bought a 1966 Corvette, 427 engine, beautiful Nassau blue. And I had that car for 42 years. And at the beginning it was, you know, almost, you know, in high school,

that thing was pretty close to the top, but as the years it was, you know, almost, you know, in high school, that thing was pretty close to the top. But as the years went by, you know, you get a job, you meet someone, you get married, you have kids, you got this cool job. I mean, it just sunk to the bottom. And, you know, for the last 10 years I had, it was just kind of a hassle. I really miss it, but it just isn't high enough on the list. So, you know, there's these various things that are trying to get me to complicate my life. It's interesting to me that you would want to ask Alex about the signal to noise ratio, but not the ratio, how he lets go of distractions or how he deals with distractions.

And then when you respond to the question, you say, I had a near death experience. And so that's actually quite simple for me. I can feel the temptation, but I've had such a radical moment in my life that I come back to the simplicity as a model, you know, and so it's like you're constantly returning. But what's interesting to me is that you would want to ask him about something that you are quite skilled at doing. And I'm wondering if it's because you had the NDE where you're able to intimately live it, but it doesn't make clear sense how other people are able to do it. Because it's kind of like asking Michael Jordan, how do you shoot the ball so well? Or there's a world-leading surfer, Mick Fanning. He's known to be one of the fastest on the planet.

We had him on the pod. And one of the fastest on the planet. We had him on the pod and one of the fastest in water. And he says, I don't quite know. Like, it's just what I do. And so I'm wondering if there's some of that in there for you. Can you respond to that confusion that I have? Yeah. You know, it's no, I think when you are doing something that you have trained for and are good at, it does come more naturally. And so you don't think about it. Like when I'm fixing the Hubble Space Telescope, I don't really remember that it's worth $6 billion. I don't remember that, you know, if I were to fall, which kind of technically isn't possible, but in my brain, it still seems like it's possible.

It's a 400 mile fall. In contrast, when you look at someone who's doing something that you, there's no way I could do that, like climbing a sheer rock wall, especially without ropes, that also is taking a long time. I mean, that thing is hours and hours and hours of constant pressure. For me, I just thought, how does he not get distracted by a bird or, you know, or a wind gust or the need to go to the bathroom or he's hungry. I mean, it just was fascinating to watch someone do something that I have no skill in for a long time, do something that you really got to focus. And so it's just fascinating to me. I was just so fascinated by what Alex did.

And then let's go, let's go back up to space for a minute here is good. Okay. Yeah. Are there UFOs? It has turned out to be the most common question in the last five or 10 years. Maybe a slightly different way it's asked. People usually ask, do you believe in extraterrestrial life? And when I first became an astronaut and would be in front of 1,000 people in keynote speech, someone would ask that in the Q&A. Everyone would laugh. Everyone would laugh. Well, that was before Hubble. And so the Hubble Space Telescope has told us, wait a second,

the universe is really amazing. There might be hundreds of billions of neighborhoods like the Milky Way. In the Milky Way, which is our neighborhood, there's like 100 to 200 billion stars. So there's 100 to 200 billion stars and hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe. There's a lot of things out there. So mathematically, I think people realize now, you know what? There almost has to be something out there. So I tell people now in these events that I really do believe there's something out there. I'm not sure that we've met them yet or experienced them yet here on Earth. It'll be really interesting to see how all these reports that are coming out address that.

But certainly there is something out there in the universe. And maybe that's this little microbe or maybe they're 37 feet tall and purple and don't have a head, but have, you know, 70 arms. Who knows? But I think, I think they, I think that they're out there. And so it'll be really interesting when we meet them. And I'm sure you're familiar with Stephen Hawking's position on it, which is that mathematically there must be, or there's like, certainly the chances are high. And if if they're this is the important part i think if we are going to meet them if they've come here it's probably because they're hostile right and his deduction there is that why else you know it's because they've run out of resources

and so it's an interesting position on why people adventure and why they explore. Because it must be because they're leaving a hostile environment as opposed to exploring from an abundance standpoint. So on the second part of it, where do you fall? If we are to meet them one day, is it because there's a hostile note to it or because they're explorers just like us in many respects? Well, I'm an optimist. I'm going to hope that they're explorers, just like we're going to Mars. You know, we're going to Mars just to find out what's there and see if it can improve our lives here. So I'm going to take the optimistic view and certainly hope it's not the more hostile view. So let's stay up here. We're not in space for a minute, but we're up in the ethers of humanity.

You said I'm an optimist. Let's stay there for a minute. Do you have a position on how the world started? Is it a deity-based? Is it non-deity-based? Where do you go with kind of the big questions about how this thing got kicked off? So in terms of where we came from, I can remember as a child laying on the floor of my bed and looking up at the ceiling thinking, why are we here? How did we get here? What's my role? It was kind of fun. It wasn't like it was a terrifying moment, but I can remember spending quite some time, multiple times doing that. And so for me, I'm science and engineering based. So I think that's how this all happened. And I don't spend too much time thinking about that anymore. I just try and think

about what's my role in that, in this effort. Right underneath of that, I want to go back to when you open the door, once you're up in space and you had the chance for a spacewalk, what was it like when that door opened? Well, we trained for a lot of things when we're going to do a spacewalk, but one thing they don't train when we're going to do a spacewalk. But one thing they don't train you for is what to think and say when the door opens and you stick your head out for the first time. And unfortunately, I said, oh, my gosh, it's beautiful. But apparently the way it came out is, oh, my gosh. It's beautiful. And so in that small gap in the words,

my friends who were in mission control actually said, everyone kind of looked around like, you know, there's something wrong. You know, it's probably only a second or two. So we should train spacewalkers to, you know, think about what they're going to say. In any case, you can come out either in the dark or the night. You don't really know exactly when you're going to come out.

It just depends on how long things are taking. I was lucky enough to come out during the day. And so it's just beautiful sight. I came out with my head looking at the Earth. And it was an awe moment. A-W-E was just a moment of awe. When you see the Earth from inside the spaceship, it's also incredible, as I've already said.

But you're looking through on the space shuttle, three panes of glass that are pretty old and somewhat scratched up. And the frames are kind of small. So you can't really get your head up close enough to the window to kind of get rid of the frame. When you're doing a spacewalk, you have what's usually a pristine visor on your mask. It goes from ear to ear. So you actually can put your head in a position where you don't see the shuttle, the space station, the Hubble, whatever you're working on. And so you do get this sense that from, I'm actually flying. I'm actually flying. This is amazing. I can remember coming up across the Atlantic towards Namibia and seeing the beautiful coast. And from that moment,

thinking this is what it really feels like to fly. And so when you open that door, you're a little nervous because you're wearing a 300 pound suit, 150 kilogram suit. And so you're a little clumsy and you've only practiced on earth in a swimming pool where your motions are damp. So it's not quite accurate. So they do give you five or 10 minutes to kind of calibrate yourself out there. But in any case, you know, it was even, even to step up from the amazing view from inside the spaceship. And I do dream about that, by the way, also a couple of times per year doing spacewalks. And so it's, you know,

whenever you find something that you're joyful for, it's very difficult to not do it anymore. And you're always trying to find substitutes. And for me, I have to say it is really nice a couple of times per year to dream about it again. Yeah, that's where I was. I didn't want to be like a downer by any means, because I had like three things I wanted to share with you as you're talking. One was the word AWE to me is really important. And it's how I measure thin slices of awe is how I measure daily success. And so if I can be in the presence of something that is grand and big and universal at the same time, be exactly in that moment while I'm maybe having a conversation with somebody, you know, like it's that uniqueness for me, because I don't get to walk on space, right?

But like that uniqueness that happens on a regular basis. And I get that feeling of awe, that physiological sensation and psychological opening that takes place. I go, that's good. You know, like, okay, that's, that's, that's a, you know, if I can stack them together throughout the day, it's like, what an amazing day. So I train myself to be able to train my mind to be in the present moment more often so that I can experience that. And so what I wanted to know from you is that, like, when you see that and feel that type of experience, this is the downer part. It's almost like somebody had the most amazing high from an artificial experience, like a drug. And then they come back down from it and they're like, I need that again. And then over time, you can't keep putting a pill in or whatever to get that high because we're not made for it. You can't keep going back to space. So that's like, I don't know why I'm going to the downer place because I also want to equally spend time on like, how?

Like, how do we have that all more often? But can you answer that downer for just a minute? You know, there's a harsh reality about this question. Oh, it's part of life, right? It's not something that we can really avoid. And one comment I wanted to make about something you said along the way is, you know, it's so important to lead a simple life so you can be present when these really amazing things happen.

And so I consider myself a sponge for information and interesting subjects and listening to interesting people. That's why I love your podcast. And, you know, you can only really appreciate them if you're present at that moment and try not to get too distracted. So that's another reason why, you know, we really wanted to simplify our lives.

You know, coming back from space, it's like many experiences where you have achieved something you wanted to or something that, you know, maybe was a surprise and that you can't really easily do it again. And so I would be really exaggerating by saying, oh, I'm fine with it. It's no problem. I mean, I wish I could go into space every single day. And that's why these dreams are so special. I think people who come from different professions, like athletes that you've worked with, for example, I mean, when the

playing career is over, sometimes they feel a little bit lost. And I'll be honest, I think, you know, to this day, I still on a daily basis think, man, I wish I could do that again. What is it that will bring me joy now? And so for me, I still love the outdoor adventur opportunity to have that thrill and that adventurism with nature. I mean, you can you can tell from talking to me that a lot of the awe in my life comes from the earth and seeing beautiful things. I'm going backpacking three times in the next five weeks. So, you know, seeing massive granite fixtures or a mountain lake, things like that, and sharing them with someone. And so I'm taking, I'm going with three different sets of people on those trips. And so I think it's common for all of us, all of us to have these memories of these amazing moments and know that we can't really replicate them. And we just have to move on and keep looking for

that, those things that will make us happy in the present. Maybe you can tell by talking to me, one of the things that brings me joy now is talking about space and spreading the goodwill and telling people how at NASA we make the impossible possible. How do we do that? And so that's part of our role too in this world is to kind of make it a better place and to share that knowledge. So kind of being an ambassador for this life as a professional explorer is one of the things I love doing now. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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Your ability to manage multiple bits of information in a complex, hostile environment is high, your diligence to prepare yourself for consequential decisions that need to be made in, again, volatile environments, VUCA environments, and maybe you can explain that to me or to us in a minute. But where are you coming from? I'm fascinated, Steve, by your story, your near-death experience, your being rejected X number of times to get into NASA, like how you took a counterintuitive maybe approach going to Stanford and swimming and the engineering aspect and your first job, you know, like, it's not your first job, but your significant,

one of the first significant jobs you have was just not just like absolutely lining up to, to become an astronaut. So, so what's my question? Where are you coming from? Like that? Is it a fire in your belly? Is it a fire behind your eyes? Like, I want to get down balance during that life to not only help the cause and the team, but also to support myself and my family and bring them joy. And so it's this clarity that was clear for me. And so part of that is that we all need to find that place that makes us happy. What is your skill? What is going to bring you joy? And so, like, for example, if you look at this picture that I drew when I was a little kid, I mean, I was lucky enough to know early that I wanted to be an astronaut. But if you look at that picture,

I have a giant smile on my face. I mean, it's this U-shaped smile. And so I was able to discover earlier than most people what would bring me joy. Other people, it takes them into their teens or 20s or 30s or 40s, maybe even longer to find what brings them joy. And when you find what brings you joy, you can get through getting kicked in the teeth and getting knocked down because you know that goal that's going to make me happy gives me this spirit to keep moving forward. Is it the thing? Are you working towards the thing later that's going to bring you joy? Or is there joy in the pursuit? And here's, I think I know what you're going to say, but here's where I hear people. And I just, I don't understand this approach is find the thing you love. So this is the conversation of passion, find the thing you

love and do it as long as you can, or do it at the highest level or whatever. And I want to flip that on its head and say, it's not the thing that brings me the joy. It's my ability to experience joy in anything that I do. And so can you help me understand the model that you're coming from? Because I don't understand what I'm hearing. And I don't mean to be obtuse about it, but I don't know. Maybe I don't understand it either. Okay. All right, good.

It's both. Let me think about this. So in terms of pursuing these big goals, pursuing life, let's just put it that way. I think that it's really a combination of having that big goal at the end. And as you take the steps along the way, you can find joy, even in the tough ones. And it's all about this journey that people say, you know, it's always important to enjoy the journey along the way. And so we have a saying in our family for our children, soak it in. And so we just use the initials SII. So we'll send them a little text. They'll say, oh, I'm doing this cool thing today on my journey to become a veterinarian or whatever.

And I'll say SII, that's it. So soak it in for that moment. Be joyful in that moment that you're on the way to this big dream. And of course, being at the big dream is awesome too, but it is really enjoying the things that will help you get along the way. I will also say though that in parallel, because of this perspective, I think that I have on life after this near-death experience and seeing the earth from space, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, enjoy the moment, be present, be mindful. So we try and make the best of every situation we're in. I feel like I'm a lifetime learner, just a sponge for information and experiences. Oh, what's this over here? What's Mike have to say about this? And so again, it's probably a combination of the two yeah but it just gives you it just gives you the ability to keep going this ability to keep going even when you get really bad news even when you know horrible

setbacks maybe you make a mistake along the way and you're just like beating yourself up but it gives you that ability to keep moving forward i simplify for children i say you know if you're playing soccer and you get knocked down you just watch the rest of the game from the field and just, you know, hey, Bobby, good job kicking the ball. And Susie, stop that shot. Or you get you get knocked down, you already know that you get up and get back into it. And so apply that to other parts of life as well. All right. You're going to a second point. Can you go back to that narrative? One of the other parts about pursuing these big goals along the way is you figure out what you're good at and you have to accept what you're good at is what you're good at. And you have to accept what you're good at is what you're good at. And so, for example, in flying the space shuttle, incredibly complicated machine. I mean, I don't really know how all the things work on it, but there are people that are. And they found joy in designing and building that spaceship. I am not good at that. I'm an engineer and a pilot, but I'm not to that level of intellectual strength that they are to pick the right bolt and to design the wing like this.

But what I have found I'm good at is operating complicated machines and being on a team that is physically involved in accomplishing something like fixing the Hubble Space Telescope. And so I'm very comfortable with that. And quite honestly, in a lot of the speeches I made after my flights, when I would be speaking to this amazing NASA and contractor team that made the impossible possible, I would tell them, you know, you guys are the ones that picked the bolts that we used and the materials that we used and how we tested this. I don't understand exactly how it all works, but you are amazing for what you did. And they would say the same thing. They would say, I always wanted to design a spacecraft that would show us pictures of things that happened 12 billion years ago. That's what they love to do. I'd rather fix that machine. And so when you find your place along this path, the exact skill that you're good at, that also gives you that

strength to get through the tough times. And you just have to put aside the things you don't know. I mean, so many people are worried about, you know, I don't know how that works. That's okay. You know, someone does know how that works. Just let them do it. Maybe it's that fear of missing out, something like that. You know, I wish I knew how to do that. But, you know, for example, I want one really simple example I give to people is, you know, I can take this plastic card out of my pocket and stick it in a wall and money comes out. Who designed that? How does that work? And so, you know, I mean, I've used this thing in Russia. I put it in the wall and the rubles come out and My money's not in that building.

It's back in California. And so, you know, technology is amazing. How does a cell phone work? You know, things like that. You can spend time like, oh, I missed out on learning how to do that. It's okay. You've got your own thing to do. How about this question?

If you were to title this podcast, what would you want it to be titled? It's almost like, you know, in some respects it's that if you're to name a boat, what would it be? If you're to, you know, write on your tombstone, the one line, what would it be? But in this more frivolous way, what would you want the title to be? It says, you know, Steve Smith. Yeah. Well, if I can give you a couple or three rather than just one, because I'm just riffing here. Yeah. Yeah. Lessons from a near death experience, how to live a simple, fulfilled life, how to find balance in achieving big goals, something like that. That's cool.

I've never asked that question. And yeah, it's cool because like you led me down this path, which is you have such a tremendous, vast experience. And we all do. but yours is public. You've talked about it. You can see it. And I think that in so many respects, humans are radically equal. And I say that because, one, from a DNA perspective,

and we've had such a variety of experiences. But when we really cut down into it, and this is very much a Western thought, I understand that this is not born out of the caste system or reincarnation or a hierarchical way of looking at humanity, but this radical humanness, this equality across us. And then, so I can relate that all of us can have something that we can grok onto your unique experience in life, but it's, you've understood so much. I could go into like, how are you so disciplined? And I think you might say passion and purpose. And I say, right, how do you develop your passion and purpose? And you say, well, having your death experience and then come out of that thing and be different, you know, and how do

you get to simplicity? Well, you know, see, see earth from 400 miles and then you'll just realize that we're all one and, you know, make it simple and be kind. And so, so we don't get to have those, but, but we do have radical experiences in our life that sometimes don't stick. And what is it? Did you have an NDE in the respect that you saw the light or like that type of near death experience? And or is it more about I almost died. And when I came back and I came to, I realized that I don't want to end the way that I ended. Like what was your, can you talk about the nature of your NDE, your near death

experience? Sure. Yeah. For me, I was only 15 at the time, which it's surprising that I came out with such lifelong experiences and skills and this new mindset. But for me, it was a slog the first three days. They put blood into me, the blood would come out. They put more blood into me, the more blood would come out. And so for me, it was kind of a slow process. I mean, I never saw a light, anything like that. In fact, let's be really clear. I think at that time, I didn't realize it was such a close call. In hindsight, you know, with ministers coming in, I probably should have, but again, I was young. But on the 11th day, I remember, you know, finally, they let me go all the way down the hall. And at the end of this hall, I was in room two, West 42, I remember. So we're on the second floor,

we went down the end of the hall. And for the first time in 11 days, I could see trees and grass out the window. And, you know, for an 11 year old or a 15 year old to say, wow, that is awesome. I didn't realize I haven't seen those for 11 days because it was just my room and outside my room was another building. So for me, it was more of a slower, a slower process. But, you know, that that experience in itself is coupled with other lucky things that happened to me. I think gratitude is, of course, another huge part of our life and something that we should carry with us every day. I mean, I had, my parents were both super hardworking people,

came from a really poor background and just taught me that, you know, just shut up and get it done. You know, hard work, no victim statements. They also taught me the value of travel. They took us to Japan as young children to live for a couple of years. I was really mad at them at the time because I was a big San Francisco Giants fan and I loved Willie Mays and they were taking me away from that. And also the value of socializing and having parties with your friends and being

joyous. And so, you know, you learn these different things. High school friends taught me different things in life. I mean, it's this portfolio. So the near-death experience was one of many things that we're lucky. I mean, a really interesting question, Mike, that's been asked to me is, if you could do it over, would you not want to have that experience because it was so terrible? I mean, that's a really hard question to answer. I mean, I really benefited from it.

Of course, I don't know what would have happened otherwise. I can't really answer the question. Yeah. Let's talk about isolation for a minute because we just are coming out of a pandemic where the world is starting to open up again in some regions of the world and others not. What can we learn from an astronaut about remote work? What can we learn from an astronaut about remote work? What can we learn from an astronaut about isolation? And those are two very different concepts. Can you maybe pick one of those and let's travel down that path for a minute? Sure. Sure. As astronauts, we actually train for isolation and we actually go through isolation before the flight and during the flight. And so before the flight, in order to keep us healthy, we're not allowed to go

stay living at our own house or to go out in the public to the mall or to movies like that. So we actually live in a special building where just certain people can come in that are healthy, like instructors or our spouses. And so we actually get used to it at that point. And what I found even in isolation on earth is it's really important to remember the big picture of why you're doing it. So it reminds you why you're doing it because it's hard. And so it's good to remember that. It's good to have a schedule, super important to have a schedule. It's super important, of course, as part of that schedule to get your sleep and your exercise, eat well. I mean, it's just classic, you know, good life advice.

It's also important to recognize that it's OK if you're not super comfortable with it. And, you know, if you need to talk to someone about it, you should. It's also important to recognize that other people need their space. So just because someone else is in that isolated area doesn't mean they want to talk to you. Maybe they want to take care of something on their own and have their own moment. And of course, when you go into space, it's even more constrained. And so really important for crews to understand all the things I just mentioned. And we have very strict schedules.

And so that just kind of keeps things going. The time just flies. It absolutely flies. Steve, would you go into isolation on earth with four other people like your crew, or is it complete isolation where you're by yourself to get to know yourself? The isolation on earth is with your crew, is with your crew. And what we do with crews now is we actually will send them out on outdoor adventures where they're isolated as a group in a tough place like the mountains or you know canoeing up in Alaska or whatever so and so that's the way we practice as a to get to work together in isolation and what I found in

remote work isolation is the same things worth work you know you have to remember that we're working isolated because there's this bad pandemic going around and we're trying to protect the elderly. So I need to be part of the team effort. And so I understand why I'm doing this. And then to have this schedule with the sleeping and the exercise and the good eating and to understand that you don't want to stay connected. I mean, you've got to stay connected if it's electronically, distance meeting, things like that. I mean, that human element is so important. How many days did it take for you to settle into like, oh, I can do this isolation? You mean for a stay at home work? Yeah, both. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when early March came

around and we started working at home, I mean, I was lost for, OK, I admit it, two or three months. I just could not get used to it. You know, wasn't real diligent about having a schedule and making sure I was sleeping and eating well and all that. So it took me two or three months, which was kind of ironic because I was supposed to be have experienced it already as an expert. But, you know, again, you can't be hard on yourself when it takes time to learn things like this. And so I eventually got my mojo around. But, you know, I think it just was a shot to the gut for all of us. And so, you know, if we were lost for a while, that's OK. What is that internal dialogue for you?

Because you're supposed to know how to do isolation and you know and you're supposed to be the smart one and you are the hero and you and so that in comparison to like i don't feel right and so how do you navigate that internal dissonance and this is i think in many in many forms the narrative that is being exposed right now across the planet, because mental health is so important. And for so long, there's been a taboo and whatever, whatever, like, how do you uniquely navigate that in that inner dialogue? So when I have this inner dialogue, I guess the first thing I remember is, you know, I'm not the only one that's having that. I think it's very common. It's very natural. I actually, even at my level of experience, have the imposter syndrome on a daily basis when I'm

doing things, which is incredibly painful to deal with sometimes. It takes kind of self-talk to remind yourself that, you know, you've got the right qualifications for this situation, or you can reach out to other people. But I think it's really important for people of all ages to recognize that that's that happens to people you have this imposter syndrome and it's okay it makes you work harder other people feel in the same way and if you need if you need help getting through that then you should do that that's what's wonderful about I think where where we see mental health efforts these days. I mean, it's wonderful now that we are training mental health, just like the other body systems, like our eyes, our heart, our skin. I mean, it's just an incredible advancement, I think, in our awareness that we now treat it that way. But boy, I'll tell you that imposter

syndrome. I don't know if this matters to you, Steve, but like, welcome to the club. You know, like this, we're at like 300 plus interviews on the podcast. And let's call it a couple of decades before that of my experience in the world with some of the best across disciplines. It's so common. It is so common. And it still doesn't, knowing that other people struggle with it, I think does help, but it doesn't solve it. You know, it's still, we have to do the work to, to work our way through that autonomic or that sympathetic nervous system

activation. When you have the thought, I'm going to be exposed, I'm going to be that I'm not okay, that there's an activation that takes place that is compounds or gives evidence to the thought that is so, maybe we say dangerous to ego. So like, if we drill into it, I think I got what you like your strategy, but it's twofold, which is like, I'm not alone. And then you go back to your body of work. It sounds like to say, these are the reasons why I have credibility here. And I'm not perfect. It sounds like you got three legs to the stool, but maybe I'm missing some of it. No, I love that. You know, part of this COVID era has that my speaking events have become virtual. And so I know at 11 o'clock on tomorrow morning, I'm going to speak into that little camera

on this computer and there's going to be 50,000 people out there. And so just this horrible nervousness and imposter syndrome, getting ready for that. And those in thought, and when I think about it now, those are exact things that I think about. Well, wait a second. How many of those 50,000 people have actually flown into space and done spacewalks? So I do bring value to the conversation. So you absolutely go through those preparation adjustments to make you get through. Yeah. I think in externalizing that stuff onto a piece of paper document about what gives you the right to step into a, uh, an environment that is, um, has some risk in it, you know, cause the risk for public speaking is that, uh, the really,

the only risk is that they're not going to find what you have to say favorable and maybe they don't invite you back, you know, like, but it really is other people's opinions my point is like externalizing it why i'm a badass you know like why i can actually do hard things especially this thing yeah i think externalizing is pretty cool as a practice now the other thing is how do you manage what other people might be thinking of you? Fear of other people's opinions. How do you work with that? And you might say, Mike, I love people.

And that's my inoculation. Or you might say, ooh, when it comes up, I do A, B, and C. How do you work with other people's opinions? Well, first of all, it happens all the time to all of us. So it's not like something that we all don't experience. And I think, you know, when I'm approaching something, I do fall back on what my level of knowledge is compared to theirs on this particular subject. I do try and adjust the way I'm speaking and the words I use to market the situation a little bit. So make it

interesting for them. I think I'm also really analyzing the audience, really analyzing that person I'm about to talk to or that group I'm about to talk to. What is it that they exactly want to know? What do they know about and what are they looking for hearing? But, you know, I think the first step is just accepting it that, you know, they may not appreciate or understand what you're saying. But let's be honest, it happens to everybody, every day, no matter what age you are, you're always worried about that. of the ways I address it is I deeply invest in trying to understand how I can present or solve something that they're interested in. How can I help them is another way, which is it's purpose driven, it's mission driven, as opposed to ego protection. So I'm guessing that that is your mechanism is that you invest in the other. And then when you do that and you get some clarity, there's less room signal to noise ratio. There's less available space for noise, which is what are they thinking? Do they

think I'm okay? Do I sound okay? You know, it's because you're caring about trying to get the right thing across to help them solve something that they maybe can unlock for their life purpose. Yeah, no, you articulated that so well, Mike, thank you so much. I mean, ego protection is not something I'm ever worried about. It's really just preparing really well and, and understanding who I'm speaking to. So right now with remote work, I mean, when you're up in space, you're working in a small pod and there's scores of people that you're reporting to, right? Because they're trusting you to get this thing done. And right now, as the world changed and we're not retracting back, thank goodness, to a five-day work week in the office. And so as we're expanding to,

is the better way to think about it, a hybrid model of work for most people, not all companies, but most people. Leaders are being challenged with micromanagement versus, let's call it empowerment, trust, actually. So they're trying to regain some semblance of control because when you can't see that something's being done or you can't walk by and say, hey, how you doing on project A, B, and C? And are we on track? Whatever. That's a real thing that's taking place in work. So there's this, let's call it healthy friction between autonomy and accountability, between people having a sense of power in their life to choose when and where, but leaders are struggling a bit with the micromanagement. Well, is it getting done? I can't see it and I can't

see you. So can you help me understand how, if you were a leader right now in modern business, how you would manage this three-two work model and this tension between autonomy and results that need to get done, autonomy and accountability. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I guess I don't really see it as friction because I think if the leader is clear on what they expect and they have touch points, occasionally they can keep track of the status. And, you know, it all comes down to who you hire. And I've always viewed myself as a servant leader. So I'm on their side. It's not going to be this adversarial relationship. And so I'm putting systems in place where I know what's going on. I don't need to hear it from them, but I just need to know kind of what's going on at a certain level. But in the end, you know,

your employees are people that you hired for a specific reason. You want to trust them, give them the opportunity to move forward. I think it's almost like parenting. I mean, you can over parent kids too, right? And so for me, I like to make sure that I've hired the right people, make sure I have the systems in place so that there's this communication and, you know, make sure they understand that I'm here to serve them. In the end, will you have some folks that won't be able to meet your expectations? Absolutely. You know, it's going to be hard for some people, both on both sides, the leadership side and the remote working side. I was the NASA person in Europe for 12 years. And so I had

conversations with hundreds of people verbally over the phone for those 12 years and the system worked fine. And that's because it was the right people. I knew what they were doing and if they needed help, they were quite honest. It's this open communication you've got to have too. But I don't view it too much as a friction oriented relationship. I feel like I could go forever with you on this. You know, your insight is incredibly valuable. What do you talk to companies about? And there are leaders in our community right now that have the proper budget to be able to get you out there. And, you know, so and the proper learned audience to learn from you.

So what do you tend to talk about with organizations? Sure. It's delivering life skills in this mindset that comes from this near-death experience and the whole NASA journey. And we've made the impossible possible. And so it's these skills and this mindset that help people improve their performance. And when you say performance, what do you mean by that? Well, it can be many things. It can be selling more objects. It can be more innovation. It can be retaining customers. It can be better teamwork, et cetera, et cetera. And so I've been fortunate enough to have been on this path and had some of these amazing experiences, which I think has produced this mindset that I call the explorer's mindset, but it's the same mindset of go-getters and successful people and entrepreneurs, et cetera, that can really

not only help you improve your performance, but also find balance. Because what I'm going to tell them at the end is this is how you have bigger goals. This is how you achieve bigger goals. This is how you develop grit and perseverance. But the only way, the only way you can do all those things is have balance in your life. And so that's where at the end, I always come in with this simplify your life message. And I'll note, Mike, you might find this incredibly interesting that after the events, I usually make myself available so people can come and take pictures and talk. And I try and ask every person, what will you take away from this event? 50% of the people say, I've always been thinking about simplifying my life. Thank

you for giving us some tools to do that. It's not about how to set big goals or how to be innovative in tough times. It's this life skill on having balance, which is kind of surprising to hear, but also rewarding. I feel like I missed the tools, you know, that you said about simplicity, like how to make it simple. And then I want to, I'd like to spar with you on balance for just for a moment, but what are some of the tools that you share with people? And I know that this is the essence of your talk. So I'm not asking you to share something that you're paying thousands of

dollars for, but like what, what is the net net of one or two ways that people can simplify? Sure. What, you know, in terms of simplifying your life, I really have three steps. One is to make sure you have a priority list. You got to know when to bring things on, what to take off, what the ranking is. The second is- Steve, I struggle there. Yeah. I think like i want i want all of it i want and i don't mean toys and i don't mean money but i want to do so much like i really want to do and experience so much i struggle with that one well that it's understandable it doesn't mean your lists have to be short but if you you also get rid of noise in your life, which means these things that just aren't really producing a good return on investment, maybe it's objects that you own, maybe it's relationships you have, maybe it's certain events that you're going to. And so you got to have the list. You've got to simplify your life

by getting rid of the noise and you have to quit wasting time. Now that doesn't mean you have to be boring and just have this focused life, but Hey, if you can carve out 10 minutes a day, I mean, that ends up being like three full days at the end of the year. And so that's kind of the three-step method, have a list, um, get rid of the noise in your life and quit wasting time. I love it. You did just make something complicated, rather simple. That's really, you know, that's good. One of the stories I tell, for example, on the wasting time is on my last event I spoke at, it was to a large corporation in Nashville. I was flying out there in March of last year and I was on the aisle seat on the left side. And there was a lady two seats in front of me watching a movie on her laptop. And so I couldn't hear it, of course, because she had her headset on and I was supposed to be reviewing my speech.

Well, I, you know, I watched about 20 minutes of that movie. Just, you know, it wasn't even like an action movie or a space movie, but, you know, I just got distracted for that 20 minutes. Couldn't even hear it action movie or a space movie, but you know, I just got distracted for that 20 minutes. Couldn't even hear it. But anyway, so. I think there's an, there is an argument to be made for the value of daydreaming, the value of kind of getting into a theta state where there's kind of a low hum of, you know, low frequency, if you will.

There is a value of daydreaming and musing, if you will. But I hear what you're saying is like, I just wasted 20 minutes of my life. I'm not sure what I got out of it. You know, like I, you know, I hear that too. A lot of cat videos on the internet, for example. Hey, it's okay to have daydreaming on your list of priorities. In fact, you should, you know, should have a date night or, you know, watching a funny movie and all that. But you can only do all the things on that list if you do two steps, two and three. If you do two steps, two and three, what does that mean? So you can if you have you can should put these things on your priority list.

OK, but you'll only be able to do those things on your priority list if you do steps two and three. Got it. Get rid of the noise in your life and quit wasting time. I mean, I always say at least three times the word balance. This is not, I don't want you to live a totally focused life on selling more widgets for your company. It's a balance. You want to be able to do that and have joy in your life. You know, Steve, let's talk about the balance. I don't know balance and I actually don't know anyone that has it so i'm like

i can't teach it and so do you feel do you feel balanced most of the time i do yeah and then is that is that because you're on balance in the present moment a lot? Or is that because you feel as though you're watering the parts of your life that you want to water in a balanced way? Well, first of all, I, you know, it's not like I'm just getting four hours of sleep per night. So this does not include, this is not enabled by getting little sleep. I try and get seven or eight hours a night. It's, it's just having a real clarity on the parts that you want to water and being able to say no and not worry about FOMO or FOPO, just living what you want to live. I don't know if it comes from the near-death experience,

but it's actually a lifestyle that is pretty easy for me to execute now. What a breath of fresh air. Well, let's Mike, let's, let's also just remember gratitude. I mean, you know, I have a house I can live in. I'm healthy, no poverty, you know, I'm not, you know, don't face discrimination of any type. So gratitude is kind of the base layer. For those who have children, I mean, every night at dinner, every night at dinner, when we would have a family dinner, the one thing we'd say wouldn't be like necessarily a big

religious prayer. It would just be, we're grateful for what we have, like this fork or that little pile of peas over there, or this carpet that's on the ground. I mean, you know, we can only give so much advice and recognize that we're so lucky. Okay. So the door opens, you've landed. You're back on Earth. What happens there? Coming back to Earth is this incredibly special moment because hopefully you've done a good job

through this hard work and this hundreds of people who have supported us that you're looking forward to thanking. I will say that when the door opens, this, this gust of fresh earth air comes in and you instantly recognize it as being something that you missed, you know, because you're enclosed for two weeks or six months, depending what spaceship you're on. And so when that air comes in, it's just this refreshing moment. You can just feel all the chemistry in your body going, yes, I'm back. And so that is really this wonderful feeling. And we landed in Florida and it's usually nice and warm there. So you can have that nice earth warm and you see people you haven't seen for a while.

So that, you know, it's usually an astronaut that comes in first. So it's wonderful to see them, a colleague. Gravity is a little bit mean for the first hour or two. You're a little bit kind of wobbly. And so you can even have a little bit of nausea, but it comes back. I mean, the earth, excuse me, the body's pretty amazing. Earlier, you spoke about water, Mike, and water might be the thing that I miss the most besides my family in space, because in water, we can't take showers. You know, if you turn the hot, cold water on, it's just

going to fly over the place, the water's just going all over. And so you don't have that sensation of the water falling over your face, like during a shower or sitting in a bathtub or swimming in the ocean. And so it's very common when astronauts come back from space, boom, they go right to the shower, turn that baby on and sit in there for an hour or two. NASA has actually built the showers at the crew quarters in Florida with built-in seats because they've learned over the decades that that's astronauts when they do. So, you know, on each of my flights, I would go in there, turn that baby on, sit in that shower, and my wife would grab a chair and just sit on the outside. We just talk for an hour or two.

Just that sensation of water. I mean, it just has this special power doesn't it um and warm water has been a healing property for hundreds if not thousands of years and so yeah that's super interesting you know hearing the wind seeing you know trees and grass again things like that it's just such this kind of a spiritual awakening so awesome hey steve thank you for sharing your brilliance um i'd love to know if there's a book that you could point me to that where I could get a little bit more of the kind of foundational philosophy, the stuff that you work from that's been instrumental in your life. Is there a book or two that you'd say, hey, check these out. These have been important to me.

Well, there's probably a series of them. I'm so grateful again for your podcast because it's this efficient way to collect all this information. You know, I grew up here in San Jose, California, and Pat Tillman went to high school where I went to school. And unlike most men, he kept a journal. And when he was killed by friendly fire overseas, his journal was made public to John Krakauer. So he wrote a book where it's called where men win glory. And it's not a book about men that's in the title, but, and so Marie, his widow made that journal available to John Krakauer. So he actually has entries in there and his decision, Pat Tillman's decision to give up being a successful professional athlete to follow his passion and his belief is entered in a couple of specific journal entries in that book. And it's just a reminder for all of us that, you know, you have to find your place. You know,

being a soldier, of course, would be the opposite of what a lot of people would do. That's not the point. Pat Tillman said, this is why I am doing this. It might seem crazy to people. And I think so many of us are fearful of pivoting in life to something that really brings us joy, or we can't do it because we're not lucky enough. But so that's one book that I really found very powerful. And again, I don't support wars and all that. But the fact that this man had it all made and said, you know what, I want to do this over here. Amazing story. Yes, we will get to Mars.

I think there's a couple of schools of thought. One is that there's going to be a lot of people we're going to send there. We might actually live there. I actually don't support that theory. I think where we are is an amazing place. We just have to take care of it. And so I don't think we need plan B to go to Mars with lots of people. But exploration is really in our souls. And we always gain through exploration, always gain things that we never even realized we would. So that's why having that small investment as part of our national priorities is a good idea. I think we'll send small groups of people there to explore, and maybe we'll find resources there we didn't

think about. Maybe the history of Mars, we'll learn more about it to help us protect our home planet, this beautiful place, this blue marble. And so, yes, we will get to Mars. There's a couple of huge challenges still, because right now it takes about eight or nine months to get there and then eight or nine months to come back. We always want to come back. And so can you think about being in a sport utility vehicle for a couple of years with a few other people? That's going to be tough. Especially if you can't shower, you must have stunk. Like that must be rank. Like how do you, how'd you deal with, how'd you deal with the body odors? Well, we digress, but you know, I've been the person coming out of the shuttle, but I've also

been the person knocking on the door and opening it after they landed. And when you open it, I mean, wow, it smells like a professional athlete's soccer or excuse me, a dressing room, just like you've experienced. I'm sure. So they don't realize it inside, but they don't smell too good. Oh, really? You lose, you lose perspective. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause you're all in there together and you get used to the smells. I mean, it's not terrible, but it's when you open that door, it's, you know, it's pretty, because remember there's, I mean, there's, you know,

there's all kinds of things stored in there. Are we getting in this generation or our kids' generation to Mars? Like, are we going to see it, you think, or the next gen? No, I think it'll be our generation. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think someone our age won't be who will go, but yeah.

Yeah. I think, you know, a really interesting thought is that the first person to walk on Mars is definitely alive today. I mean, that is so interesting. Are they five years old? Are they 15 years old? Where does she live? What does she do?

I mean, it's really all these really interesting thoughts. It would have been fun, for example, in the 1940s for someone to drive up to that farm in Ohio and said, hello, Mrs. Armstrong, that little kid playing marbles out there in the dirt, he's got to be the first person to walk on the moon. It's crazy. I ask this question often to professional athletes and folks, like if you could be the first person to Mars with a 50% chance of coming back alive, would you go?

And without me kind of sharing the results of that, how do you answer that? So if I was a bachelor and single, I'm out of here, send me, but I want to see how the stories of our children turn out. And, um, I'm very much in love with my wife and I think it would be, uh, incredibly selfish to do that at this point. So I answered in a very similar way when I was like, it was a friend of mine and I were banging around that question together. And I was like, Oh yeah, I'm going, you know, no, no, like my wife and I would sort it out. Like that's a hard conversation, but supporting each other is kind of part of our commitment and so and i go ah kids and then the where i wrestled was well what message do i send if i say i i feel like an

explorer at heart but i'm not going to go because i'm going to sacrifice that part of me to see you grow. And that was like the double dip in there. Like, is that how I can best support my son? Or is it modeling it? Or is it being around and shaping? So that was the double dip in there. And so I'm not asking you to wrestle with it, but I just wanted to share that with you.

When I speak to large crowds, I always start off after introducing myself by saying, I have a question for all of you. If theoretically, at the end of today's presentation, I would walk out among you, a couple thousand people, and give you a free ticket for a spaceship ride in one month for a two-week trip to the space station, you take it it's theoretical we actually don't have it today your company can't afford the tickets but it's theoretical would you do it because you know we think the ticket prices now are going to be what 50 60 million dollars still to this day and as i'm describing the question there's always 10 that already got their hand up they haven't even heard all the things. They're just, you know, I'm just going to go, you know. And then it's usually 50-50. And the next thing I'll say is, I want you to think about the same question after I've told you what it's like, because some people will be more interested, the awe of the earth, et cetera. Others will find out that, you know, most astronauts throw up and I threw up a hundred times on my four flights and they're like,

I'm done. I don't want to wear a diaper for the launch and entry. So but you got people who are voting right away. But I think a lot of the people, my point was that most of the people that are voting haven't really thought through about, you know, their children, their spouse. You know that there's implications there. You must really smell. Well, think about the people coming back from the space station that's right yeah we do use waterless shampoo and body bath which is from the hospital industry for people who are bedridden no i'm just thinking about the the all the all the um compression

on your system that you have to wear diapers you know yeah yeah yeah um i. Two more questions and then we'll, we'll, we'll wrap up. And I'm sorry for going so long, but I love learning from you. Is that what I said, we were talking about VUCA. Is that a model that you guys work from or do you, do you use OODA loops? Do you lose VUCA? Do you have any particular models like that? We don't usually use those acronyms, but we know where we're going. It's going to be, you know, really tough that we can't imagine all the bad things that are happening. So we use the same techniques to prepare. And that's this meticulous preparation,

building this incredible communication between not only the crew members who are a small part of the team, but between the crew members and the massive numbers of amazing people that are supporting us on the ground. And so, you know, that's why, you know, fear wasn't really part of the astronauts journey into space because of this preparation. It's a great life lesson. I mean, you know, for a speech or for a meeting or, you know, dance or whatever, I mean, we prepare meticulously, it reduces our anxiety. And part of that, the reason you prepare so much because you are entering into a VUCA

environment, which is high volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And preparation is kind of the anecdote for that. And psychological preparation is part of it. It's not just technical, it's not just physical, but it's psychological preparation as well. Mike, you're so right. Because what I would remind people of is that when you're along the way in your path, in these tough situations, you have got to still train yourself to think incredibly innovative to how to solve these problems when they come up. I mean, maybe it's an avalanche, maybe it's a storm out at sea, maybe it's a radiation storm, maybe someone forgot a piece of equipment, maybe someone made a mistake.

So you have got to train yourself not to think of options A and B, but is there an option X that will solve all of it and be able to take action? I mean, a lot of people will come up with solutions. Oh, these are all my ideas, but then they won't pivot and do that. We have to, as professional explorers, think about option X and then be willing to actually implement it, you know, at a moment's notice. This hooks around the second question I had for you, which is like, as an engineer, you're trained to see problems and you find where things could break. And there's a negative, if you will, to what you're focusing on.

And yet in these VUCA environments where you have to take action, you have to move from, you go from, okay, this will break, this will break, this will break, this will break, this could break, this could break, this might not break. I'm not sure that'll break. Let me go there. But how do you move from that negative into like, it sounds too binary to say from negative to positive, but how do you move out of that break it, you know, kind of mindset to a commitment that this is going to work? Oh, interesting. Well, for as a, as an astronaut, for me, it was very refreshing in the negative period that we were thinking through all the bad things that could happen. And we continually reminded ourselves that the things that could happen are

not ones we've even thought of, but we've developed the skill to deal with these bad things that happen. And we see that over and over again in this set of things that we think might happen that are bad. They don't happen, but this thing does, but we're prepared for it. I mean, Apollo 13 is a really good example of that. And so you've developed the working relationship and the teamwork and the problem solving skills to deal with anything. And so for me, yeah, yeah, for me, it was like a challenge to get through all the training where we were going through all, all the off normal situations. I mean, people might be shocked to hear that we spend maybe 10 or 15% of the training going through the normal plan only. I mean, they're just, they're breaking windows, breaking computers, making a crew member sick,

you know, in simulation over and over again. You kind of grow when it happens, but you're, you're growing skills wise. We call them, we call them the evil instructors, by the way, the ones that are kind of running the simulators. Oh, man, I see why. Do you like the right stuff? Does that movie have it close to right? Yes, yes, yeah. It was really probably the first movie that really, really made me really turn the gas on

to try and become an astronaut. I just really cherish that movie. I do too. I wondered if astronauts like it because there's a corniness to things that, you know, are not documentaries. But like, that's cool incredible. And we recognized that really that we are riding the shoulders of giants, frankly. I mean, that's a fancy saying, but it's true. You know, at the Johnson Space Center, when you drive in, there's a Mercury Redstone rocket standing there. It looks like a little pencil. I mean, it's this tiny little rocket that Alan Shepard got into,

and he literally strapped the rocket to his back end. You know, I mean, that took a huge amount of bravery. Amazing. What a life you've lived. Beautiful insights. Okay. So where can people find you? What's the right place to stay connected to your journey to get you, you know, connected to speak to companies and, and, and, and what are the right places to go? Oh, thank you so much. So the best place is my website, astronautstevesmith.com. Lots of good speech write-ups there, pictures, a little bit more of my background, some of the artwork from when I was a child, et cetera.

So that's how they can contact me. There's a big red button on that website. Awesome. Steve, appreciate you. I'm wishing you and the fam the absolute best and more to come. Well, same to you and to all your listeners. And again, thanks for this treasure trove of life advice you've been providing. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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