Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Life Lessons from Death, Risk, and Mother Nature | Mountaineering Legend, Conrad Anker

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Conrad Anker, an absolute legend who has been pushing the limits of mountaineering for the last 30 years, evolving into one of America’s best alpinists. At age 56, Conrad’s resume continues to grow, having notched the long-awaited first ascent of the Meru Shark’s Fin in India with partners Jimmy Chin and Renan Ozturk in 2011, which led to the Sundance-winning documentary, Meru. Conrad has climbed Everest three times, including a 2012 trip with National Geographic to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the first American ascent of the mountain. Though true alpine routes have been his forte, his résumé also includes big wall first ascents on El Capitan and first free ascents in Zion National Park. In 1997 alone, he completed first ascents in Antarctica, Pakistan’s Karakorum and on Yosemite’s El Capitan.So Conrad operates in high consequence environments, places where the luxury of a mistake is often not afforded. Like so many explorers of nature and human nature, he doesn’t consider himself a risk-taker, but someone who works in high risk environments. It’s a forcing function, like none other than I know – to get to the truth and the purity of thought and action. It forces best judgment, and the rewards and consequences of such. And because of that, he’s come to have a deep relationship with life - with people and mother nature – his experience, with experience.I hope that for all of us – to know oneself, others, to know mother nature – and to have a meaningful relationship with experience. To be able to work well with feelings, emotions, thoughts and the unfolding world outside of you.  Mark his movie right now - you’ll definitely want to watch it – it’s called “Torn” (available on Disney+)._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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He is an absolute legend who has been pushing the limits of mountaineering for the past 30 years, evolving into one of America's best alpinists. At the age of 56, Conrad's resume continues to grow, having notched the long-awaited first ascent of the Merus Sharksfin in India with partners Jimmy Chin, who is also on this podcast, and Renan Ozturk in 2011, which led to the Sundance winning documentary Meru. Conrad has climbed Everest three times, including a 2012 trip with National Geographic to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the first American ascent of the mountain. Pretty cool. I mean, he literally is in

rare air, both in life and with what he does. Although true Alpine roots have been his forte, his resume also included big wall first ascents on El Capitan and first free ascents in Zion National Park. In 1997 alone, he completed first ascents in Antarctica, Pakistan's Karakoram, I think that's how you pronounce it, and on Yosemite's El Capitan. So Conrad operates in high consequence environments, a place where the luxury of a mistake is often not afforded. He, like so many explorers of nature and human nature, he doesn't consider himself a risk taker, but somebody who works in high risk environments. Now those environments are a forcing function like no other that I know to get to the truth,

to the purity of thought and action. It forces best judgment and the rewards and the consequences of such. And because of that, he's come to have a deep relationship with life, with people, with Mother Nature, with his experience with experience. And I hope that for all of us, to know oneself, to know others, to know Mother Nature, and to have a meaningful relationship with experience to be able to work well with feelings and emotions and thoughts and the unfolding world outside of you and then i want to encourage you to mark his movie right now you'll definitely want to watch it it's called torn Torn. And with that, let's get right into

this week's conversation with a true pioneer and a mentor to many, Conrad Anker. Conrad, how are you? Things are well, Michael. Thanks for taking time out of your day to open up a conversation. I have been really looking forward to this. I've come to learn after doing the podcast for a handful of years that there's a few names that when somebody says, Hey, would you be interested? I go, Oh, yeah. And you are one of them. Early in my career, I was incredibly attracted to this subfield of adventure and action and action sports and consequential environments. Because, I don't know, it's people like you that inspired me to do this work in the first place.

People are pushing limits and exploring the reaches of the human experience. And literally people are on the path of mastering both their craft and themselves. So I'm excited to learn more about your story. I've read about it and watched you from a distance, but there's a contour that takes place when people choose words and the way that they choose words that reveals so much. And so I'm as equally as excited about like the insights you have and the contour, the way that you shape your experience. And so with all that being said, can we just start back in your early days just to get some context call it a quick flyover so there's some grounding of how you're able to be such an influence in the action world in the adventure-based world

well i appreciate it and thank you michael the introduction. You probably got a cue card from my siblings or my mother to be like, oh yeah, everything's there and it's great. But yeah, starting at the 40,000 foot view, I was born in San Francisco in 1962. My father's side of the family's from Northern California on the road, the Northern Road into Yosemite, Highway 120. And the anchor side is Dutch shipwrights from up by Ukiah. And then the Corcoran side was Scotch-Irish, and they were provisioners to the gold miners in the gold rush. My mother's from a small village outside of Dresden. My father met her after the Second World War. He was stationed there and then brought her to the United States and California where I was born. And so that was I think she was happy to having been born into the ravages of war, being born in 33 and seeing firsthand what that was it was a pretty a strong

influence on my life and sort of like you have to make the most of it and you don't know how lucky you are that a similar narrative that many first generation immigrants instill upon or instill with their children so that was kind of that view. And then California, then to the University of Utah, undergraduate degree there. But I guess the main thing I was studying was getting outdoors and climbing, things like that. So that was where I began my business, working in the outdoor space, working in gear shops and on raft trips and taking people climbing. Okay. So early messages were some of that first immigration, first generation immigration, which is there's a fortune to be here to be. And take it was it take life seriously or have fun with life or like what was the subtext to the gratitude that she was sharing to you part of it was yeah great

to take life seriously to like yeah i was born in 62 67 you know we landed on the moon and we couldn't you know collectively as a society nation the world we're doing the moon and we couldn't, you know, collectively as a society, nation, the world, we're doing great things. And so my mother was like, yeah, when I was your age, it was quite a bit different. So you have that level of and she's she's passed away, but she was a white woman who had a strong accent. So I could see people judging her on her accent or with just that. So a bit of empathy for people that, um, that don't look like us. And I'm not equating my mother's, what she went through as an immigrant with a German accent to what, um, other members of

our community have endured over, over generations, but it gave me a bit of empathy and insight into people that might not fit in the norm. And so that was another lesson from her. Okay. So you go to empathy about people like her rather than anger for the people that were judgmental, critical, or created even momentarily a sense of hostility in your family? Yeah. The Second World War was only 20 years old, and so it was still very relevant. And children play war things. And we're in that weird space where Japan and Germany went from being the, um, the enemies in war to then being allies in the post-war world. And then it was the cold war. And so trying to grapple with all of that. And then with, um, with my mother being who she was and being in um being in the place and so it was um and then her own reaction to war which you know as the time stamp here we are 15th of march and the you know our planet again is in the in the throes of war and it's most unfortunate and so anyhow i got a little bit of a tangent there

yeah no contextually incredibly relevant especially for probably where you are in your life as well um a full circle experience you know in that context and then and then if we go back to the early messaging so it was take life seriously. Are you a serious person? I love to have fun and seek joy in life, but life is serious. So to have things organized and prepared to me is a source of satisfaction. So this afternoon, I'll get out climbing. I'll be going

out with our son, Max. His life is in my hands as my life is in his hands. So we have to take care of each other. And that foundation for climbing and outdoor adventure sports is a great way for humans to communicate. But within that, you have to know the systems. The rope has to function. You have to play sk skier it's easy to make mistakes to be careless and then they catch up to you and then people other than yourself are paying the um the cost with that but yes i i take life seriously on a collective global sense so i'm up at night thinking what's the world going to be like in 200 years? What does our generation know? What can our generation do for future generations? And this understanding of humans and the cosmos, and at this point of knowledge that humans have, to me, there is a degree of seriousness and responsibility, particularly as citizens of the United States, where we have this tremendous economic engine, a very accredited and proven university system, a flywheel for innovation, a beacon for democracy and a lot of these things that you and I grew up with

sort of as boy scouts we were meant to feel proud about these things but are we still there and what can we do with it so there's some yes the big picture I take life seriously and you want to make sure that you're healthy and you're you're not bouncing checks kind of like that keeping things going on that but then at the same time you always want to relax a little enjoy that Saturday afternoon and just watch a puppy play in a puddle for the first time so to say and and celebrate the joy and happiness in life so there's in the surf community we talk about like the parallels between surfing and life. You know, no wave is ever repeated. Neither is any moment in life. And so being able to figure out how to ride a wave or and life. And are there some for guiding and climbing as well as, you know, that would parallel in life? And it's a sneaky way of saying like, what makes a good climber? Does that make a great human? Yeah.

Say if you and I set out to climb a mountain, our collective goal is to make it to the top. We realize we can't do it as an individual or we choose to do it as a team to have a shared experience to move some of the work, spread it out between people. But your common goal is what unites you on that. And the manner in which we communicate in that way, to me, is fundamentally healthy. And it's a paradigm shift from competitive, antagonistic, rules-based sports. And so, yeah, we set out the physical boundaries. We put a clock to it. and then we put rules to it and then we throw a ball back and forth either with a tool or without a tool and someone's the victor someone's the loser and that for me i was like okay the team sports they didn't work because it was a little bit of an odd duck. And then the boys that were like,

like at the locker lineup where they are, then they were like, oh, it's football practice. We're really going to plow into him. And so I was like, oh, I was happily made the switch to scouting. And I had a great mentor, scout dad, that scout master, that was a Korean war vet. He is convinced that all young boys this day and age were getting a little soft in the middle and it was his job to toughen us up because camping

and doing things like that and so a lot of those um yeah my early scouting book is still here in my library and things have changed but still the foundation of it of you know the buddy system and helping people other i mean they teach good things in that sense so um but to the the question what makes a good climber is probably someone that cares about their fellow partner as much as they care about themselves so um someone that's really dedicated to to you as a partner and giving that extra 5%. If they reciprocate, you'll have that extra 5%. And they'll see things that you won't see coming.

They'll take care of you. They'll be able to say, Michael, you're exhausted. Have a sip of water. Let's take 20 minutes and rest at this point and evaluate where we want to go and what our next decisions are. A partner helps you out with that. And that when we have climbing as a vehicle for that method of communication, where it's a good trajectory. Is there a story that you're just referencing in your own mind about you being there for somebody in a time of need or somebody being there for you in a time

of need that you could kind of bring me into it? Oh, there's all these great stories. Jimmy Chin, our mutual friend, we were 2001, July of 2001. So two decades ago, we were on a trip to K7 and it was it was like two things one i was up climbing and as i was finishing up the pitch a small piece of ice dislodged and it it cut my my just there somewhere on my face and so of course it was like blood everywhere sort of but i was just like fixing the belay and jimmy comes up and he's like oh my god i heard you like say the ice hit you or something like that there was some exclamation of awareness while i was leading the pitch and he got up there and it's like 20 minutes later it dried up and i was like oh it wasn't that bad so we we had that feedback with it. And then on the same trip, we got trapped by

bad weather. And so we're already rationing food and we're like bored. And so I was like, well, let's just, let's fast for the day. Like, and we're already eating a couple of tablespoons of oatmeal and the first of many starvation journeys that I've embarked on with Jimmy. And so he was like, like well that's not a good idea we can we can parse a little more food out of our our system but we don't need to fast we're already basically living on a very calorie restricted diet so that was was able to call over to me and say no it's kind of a cool idea but it doesn't make any sense and and just jimmy like in that moment i can see him with like a grin you know

like was it a whisper or was it a demonstrative like that's a bad idea was it more like yeah i think it was probably yeah it was at that point where you know we're two three years as friends um or maybe i'd met him in 98 something like like that. So we hadn't, there wasn't that capability where you finish the other person's sentences off and you know what they're thinking. And it was like, so go, yeah, of course you want to try the harder way because he was like, that's what you always try to do. But this time it doesn't make any sense. So he, I reached out to him, uh, in, in preparation for our conversation.

And he said that what he's fascinated by is how you've mentored so many and mentored him. And so can we pause here? And so you're talking about relationships. You're talking about really understanding the other person, having their needs be as important as your needs. And then obviously underneath, we'll get to some of this stuff, but the skills and the preparation to build those skills so that you can truly be there for the other person. Because if you don't have the right chops and skills and you're a mess, you can't be there for another person. They have to take care of you.

And so I want to pause that and come back to it. But can we spend a little time to talk about mentorship and maybe start with, did you have an influential mentor that shaped the importance of mentorship in your life. Yeah. A great way of looking at it and a good segue into one of the most important things of being a human and progressing through life and being a mentee and then being a mentor and still being able to be a mentee, even as we are later in our life. And yeah, fortunately, as a youngster, there was my father and his buddies that took us out climbing and they were um mentors in that sense of like oh this is the ropes and you have to literally learn how to climb because the systems are um they're. And so you can't not like running where there's a, either you have a very innate stride and you can improve on it, but when you go into it, having to set up an equalized fillet, learning how to manage the rope, different techniques, they require some knowledge

that people pass on to you. And, um, so I guess in that sense, um, and then my sisters, they were older than I am, but they kind of mentored me in what cool was at the end of the 60s and 70s. So always the sibling mentorship is there. We always learn from them. Being a third kid along so that it was like, OK, okay. Learn from them. And then climbing-wise, in the Salt Lake, I mentioned I went to the University of Utah. A fellow, Mug Stump, who was 14 years my senior, took me under his wing in the mid to late 80s. He perished in 1992 in a crevasse fall. But it was the vote of confidence to pursue a life as a professional climber. And so he had played football at Penn State and then semi-pro with the Neptune Mariners. And I think that was like the farm team for the Dallas Cowboys.

Went to Dallas Cowboys training camp, walked in there. It's like, OK okay this isn't it within two days and then drove west and was there at snowbird um a year or two after it opened and kind of lived on the mountain and kind of that classic uh pursuing your goals at the expense of other things so there was a chance with that but overarching with mentorship is that it doesn't necessarily need to be every Thursday afternoon at four o'clock with, say, the Big Brothers, Big Sisters program that we have here in Gallatin Valley, where you're helping out a child that could use some assistance and guidance and a role model with it, but it can be a single moment. It can be an inflection point where you validate someone in what they wanna do. Like, yeah, you're a great artist. You should pursue this.

There's, as long as you have food and you're well fed, I mean, you're covering the life goals or necessity to live and survive, then you should pursue art rather than something else. And kind of in that sense, so that those touch points can be a single inflection point for mentorship. It doesn't need to be an ongoing one. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Obviously you have 10 out of 10 on technical skills. And oftentimes people refer to others as coaches. And that seems to me to fall way short to the concept of mentorship. Would you agree that mentorship has a different tone than coaching? Absolutely. Coaching, it might be, say you're at the climbing gym and we'll try holding onto that handhold from a different

rotation and it'll change your body position. You might then succeed on that same way a coach would in football or baseball, tennis work to be on that along those same things. But, um, in a sense, like with Alex Honnold, he's a better climber than i'll ever be and for most people on this planet there's nothing we can i can't mentor him in the sense of climbing there doesn't make any sense with that but being 30 years his senior having been in where we are in life there are life lessons that that he can be receptive to learning about and understanding. And I'm keeping that open view as I age, I'm 59 today. So as I, what are these next 20 years going to look like? And how can I still learn from others and who is there that I can learn from? And then

how can I take that knowledge I'm learning from and share it with as many people as possible. Do you have, like I've got my mentor, Gary de Blasio. It's clear. He's known me since I was 16. He saw me and then has seen me at every phase of my life, partly because I wanted to be seen and be seen by him and like it worked. And also because he had the interest and the ability to do it. And it, you know, I refer to him and in an honored position to be my mentor. Do you have that same type of like, oh yes, here's my three, four, five, one, I don't know what the number is of folks that you're mentoring? Or is it more like you're kind of a father figure for many, a mentor figure for many in the climbing community?

Like, how does it, is it super intimate and it's obvious if you're a mentor to somebody? Like, I don't know if Alex would consider you a mentor or it's like, oh no, like that's the role that we inhabit yeah probably not in a traditional sense but there there have been conversations that we have that similarities in our and where we are with that but probably actively mentoring um three or four individuals that um that uh that where it's relevant in terms of climbing but then also in in being a person being a human so uh for um young men that don't have a father or an absent father figure to be there for them and to be hey happy how you doing? Checking up on you. Um, yeah, there's, you know, I look at what we were able to, to bring to our boys, Jenny and I, um, the biological children

of Alex that I've adopted. And we're like, yeah, I'm going to do what I can and work hard to pay for university. Um, I'm going to help them get a small pickup truck because that's what every 28 year old boy wants to drive young man. Right. So these things I'm helping out because there are children, but can I help out other people outside of my family and direct circle of influence and to be there with them? So that would be, and then from people that have influenced me, there's business mentors that have given me insight to it. There's intellectual mentors. Rick Ridgeway is a great, having known our family for the past 30 years and having been on expeditions with Alex and seen how our family has changed in this

unique space that Jenny and I have, he's always been a great mentor in that sense. And also at a very important point in our Jenny and I in building and developing our relationship to affirm that we were on, we're doing the right thing. right thing and that support from close friends and family really gave us the strength to embark on the family that we've created. Can you take a moment and bring people into just how complicated that relationship was? Almost right from the get-go. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

For me, from a distance, it looks like it probably started off incredibly complicated. But I would love to hear your take on it. Yeah. So 1999, kind of May 1st, I was on Everest, discovered the preserved and frozen body of George Mallory.

And the first email note I get from anyone in my circle is from Alex Lowe, who had been my dedicated climbing partner over a period of nine years and a bunch of expeditions and doing fun things. And then five months later, we're on expedition to Shishapangma. And in avalanche- Where is that? Shishapangma is the 14th highest peak in the world. It's entirely within Tibet

and it's just over the border from Nepal. So it's one of the 8,000 meter peaks. And we had a very bold and goal of trying to ski the south face of it, which was pretty this big big stakes type of expedition filmed by abc tv and all the trappings of a commercial professional climbing expedition and then it was there on the 5th of October that Alex and David Bridges were swept away in an avalanche and lost their lives. So on my end, it was a, you know, life just went from one gear to another.

And it was a very sudden point there. within that, that Jenny and I found happiness with each other in the process of the grief that we're both experiencing. And on my end, the immediacy and the intensity, the violence of an avalanche, and then walking away from it with injury. And then the weight of an avalanche and then walking away from it with injury. And then the weight of survivor's guilt afterwards. Like I was 36. Alex was a couple of years older than I am, but he was like, he had it together. He had the family. And that was, and so that, how did that reflect in onto me? So our relationship is is unique.

And our eldest son, Max, recently created a film titled Torn, which is through National Geographic documentary films and is available at Disney Plus. And that has a very in-depth look at our family and our family dynamic as told by one of us. And so just to round out the story, Jenny's relationship with Alex is the part that makes it complicated.

And so can you just talk about survivor guilt, the relationship between Jenny and Alex, and then how you and Jenny became romantic? Just walk through that contextually for just a moment, because I've got about three questions I want to ask. So Alex, at the time in the late 90s was a professional climber. And that meant being on expedition, traveling to remote mountains, trying these adventurous climbs, coming back with a story that is then shared. And at the same time, Alex and Jenny had three children, Max, Sam, and Isaac. And always within what we do, there's that awareness that something could go wrong, an accident or a fatality. And we accept that in return for the intrinsic reward that we get from being outdoors and sharing that adventure and the professional rewards that we get it but we have to like make peace with that value proposition that you could perish in the mountains certainly when

we were out climbing it wasn't something that we would dwell on and be like oh this or that or we just we knew it was there and had it help out as sort of being a a decision-making prism like we have to be here for other people and particularly if you're a parent which was with with uh with alex so um yeah that i mean certainly there's a lot of parents that are climbers out there but there are a lot of the sort of that cutting edge when you want to push it as hard as you can it's it's pretty much single men and women that are there you know they don't have the extra responsibility of a larger family or along those lines so but that was um leading up leading up to Jenny and I getting together.

And then we got together after the avalanche in 1999 and just being there for each other. And it was falling in love with the boys as much as with Jenny. And for them, though, Sam was seven years old and the age where your best friend is like the biggest currency in the world. You know, come back on the playground. So and so said, they're my best friend. And they're like, that's huge. And they're like, he was your best friend. And so that that connection that the children there, and then also realizing that they, with love and attention and doing things, that the weight of loss wouldn't be as immediate for the children so we enthusiastically set out on on being in love and and cherishing our love with

each other jenny and i and being there for the children and then doing things whether it's musicals at school or science projects or taking them to their soccer practice or just being there as a parent and kind of really um filling time that could go astray with purpose. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay. So there's so much embedded in here, which is deep relationships and spoken or unspoken from Alex to you and, you know, about like, Hey, make sure if I never come back or if I don't come

back, you take care of, you know, like keep an eye out for the family and you're close with the family. And so then there was this natural kind of grieving, healing, care, love, attention that moved into you basically building a family with the family that he was building as well, which is super complicated. Honestly, maybe this is more common, like you've seen something like this before, but your way of living is remarkable to me. And when I say you, I don't necessarily mean you right now. I mean the adventure-based life approach from a professional standpoint it's fascinating because of the truth the purity the full commitment the things that you mentioned that you could perish on the mountain at any time

and so you got to have some stuff in order or some stuff that is completely chaotic and there's a recklessness. And you and I both know that those folks don't last very long. Either they realize that they're not made for it or they make a catastrophic mistake. And my point here is that the intimacy of relationships is heightened when you work in environments of consequence. And so there's a depth that you hold that other people might not understand because of the frequency that you face high consequence. Not necessarily risk, but high consequence. And the ultimate consequence is that physical life is no longer.

So was there a sense of responsibility at any level for you to take care of Ginny and the kids? There wasn't a spoken or written thing that, like, here we were a third night in some horrendous bivouac and it's stormy. And it's like, God, if I ever make it out of here alive, take care of my family. And there's something out of a sailor movie or wasn't it? Yeah, right, right. It wasn't a line out of a, it wasn't scripted or anything like that, but rather it was just knowing that, that you're there for your partner. And as you mentioned, being in situations of consequence is really that changes how humans interact with each other. And that's one of the

reasons that working with at-risk youth, taking them climbing all of a sudden, they're like, oh, if you don't believe me, I can hurt my ankle and you get three body lengths above the ground and our body, we were like, we're scared and you have to train yourself to not be scared, but it's the same way. If I paddle out to a wave that I know is, or where I shouldn't be there. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get swirled in the water and my sand in my eyelids. And they come back and like, well, I mean, I get that sense of fear there. And so because you have those moments with people, you you're that much, you literally have their back. So you're like, OK, because you got me through this pinch when we ran out of food and we had to dig a tent platform. When you're back at home, you're like, okay, let's have dinner or let's do something that you have a heightened relationship with that person.

This is one of the reasons that I had to leave. I didn't share this with you, but we have a similar approach to man-made rules. And I did not fit in as a young kid um with traditional stick and ball sport because it was these man-made rules and these adults screaming at me i was like what are we doing and so that's what attracted me to mother nature as a teacher because it was swift it was really consistent and um you know like you had to be on your game. Like you really had to be fully present. And so I was deeply attracted there. Maybe for some of the same reasons that you are, but you've tripled down on it.

And I didn't have that ability to do that. I actually chose in some respects the safer much safer route was traditional education and my traditional education became like this rich fascination and so I had I was compelled to keep following the science of being at home with yourself in stressful environments I had to I had to understand it better because I didn't understand it as a kid. I couldn't live it. And so I would love if you could, this is not a fair question, but what I'm fascinated by is I know you know things. You have been all across the planet. You have been, you spent much of your life in consequential environments, rugged, hostile, collaboration required and relationship

required to get through it on top of all the technical skills. I would love if you could somehow maybe do two things. Tell a story to bring some of the nuances of what I just said to life, but to leave us with, if we knew what you knew, how would we do our life? How would presidents run countries? How would CEOs run organizations? How would teachers run classrooms? How would parents run their family?

So maybe you can, there's a long-winded way of me saying, bring me into a moment or time in your life where shit was real. And, and from that, that experience, if we could hydrate leaders across the world, that they would understand what you understood, that we would be living better. Yeah. world that they would understand what you understood that we would be living better yeah um the most relevant takeaway from a life of consequence is that um we're in this together so the lesson that we're there for others is is probably the most salient bit of knowledge that a life in the mountains has given me. And that if you're there for others, that person will be there for you. And that's how you have success. And that helping others is in and of itself, a source of well-being and happiness. And so if I can help out a young climber with technique or with here's an ice tool

or how can I open a door, make an introduction, something like that, there's well-being in that. And to a sense that if we look at the people that are destitute, living without a home, that are at the people that are destitute, living without a home that are at the margin of society, they might not necessarily have that opportunity to help other people. They're being helped, but for them to help someone else. And so one often sees these people that are life is difficult,

they're, they're caring for an animal or a pet. And that when I see that, I'm like, that's the first step of human emotion that they can then help out. And so rather than being like, oh, this person's a burden to society and they slip between the cracks, mental health isn't there, and they have a dog and all that. I'm like, yeah, they're trying and they're trying to do with that. But I guess that being in these situations with consequence, you have to 100% trust the person you're with changes how you look at things. And seeing that with, we always joke about, oh, it would be great if we could get the world leaders to go on a camp out. Obviously, there's the classic example of John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt having a cup of coffee over a campfire in the 22nd century going forward in the next hundred years what are those conversations going to be that we've gone we need to address bigger questions and preserving some land for aesthetic joy and beauty but wait is that how it happened john yeah they were and and

roosevelt and teddy roosevelt yeah they camped out in yosemite and were they friends and they went on a camp or they just happened to be a similar campsite no they were friends and it was whether it was arranged or staged it was um it was but yeah it was at the time yosemite was a state park and it was run by the mariposa battalion um chasing the miwok indians out of there and white imperialism there at its finest and so recognizing that but um the first national park yellowstone now celebrated 150 years and what that concept was and how it worked out but But getting people that, so when you had Roosevelt and Mears, you know, both leaders in their own right and to sit back and to wax poetic

about the benefits of being outdoors, then good things came from that. And that conversation might not have taken place in the Oval Office. There's something about standing around a campfire and stirring the coals and waiting for the soup to be ready that sort of strips away the pretense that society and buildings and status and the accoutrements that we insulate and insulate ourselves and project ourselves with. And all that's gone you're like you and i we have a great conversation right now because i can see you it's through a zoom but imagine the conversation after a long day of adventuring and warming our hands by the coals looking at the stars and things like that so it's the silence that is so powerful yeah and that um and it's for people that cherish that and they see the the benefit of it it's a wonderful it's a wonderful way and we see those empirical studies that are done on nature and how it calms the mind and a variety of different ways that we can look at that.

And so hopefully to get people into that same opportunity. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

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you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. So the mountain creates a forcing function to be there for others. And you were attracted to go to the mountain for what reasons? Like what was the calling to go to the mountain? And the lesson is, like we just you're ringing the bell saying, hey, listen, fundamentally organize your life to be there for other people, to have their back. And if we could all do that, boy, this life that we're experiencing now would be much richer. And then so, but what was the calling to go to the mountain for you? We were introduced to the High Sierra in central in the central sierra nevada between highway 120

and highway 108 so we'd go from sonora pass to togo pass back and forth depending on the year and then spend two weeks with mules and camping and just being outdoors and that was always the and but i i look at my two sisters and my brother and we're all close to each other as anyone could ever be, but why did I end up where I was? And so I kind of think like my factory setting was like, go climbing. It was just born with that DNA chain. So I'm like, I'm damned. If I don't follow it, I'm going to'm gonna be it's gonna be a miserable life if

i do follow it maybe good things could happen from that but just being in the mountains at at age 10 and looking up at the peaks and climbing up to the going up to the the scrambling peaks with the family and coming back and making a campfire and floating pieces of wood down the small rivulet of water coming off the snow bank. Little creative things like that for children were, I was like, this is where I'm happiest. And that moment came probably about age 14 as we were finishing up one of our summer pack trips. And it'd been a long time out but it was one

of those mornings where you wake up and wow the birds are singing the sun is shining the pack packs itself it weighs less than what it does and we were hiking out the trail and there was this moment that is still with me to this point where i was like, this is where I'm happiest is being in nature and doing this. So whatever I do in life, this is the emotion where I want to be spending time walking in nature. It doesn't necessarily go into the technical climbing that was that followed as a result of it, but rather that fundamental being in nature is where I'm happiest. And then using that as a decision prism to the work that I did choose was like, well, if I can get out more often, then I'm succeeding.

Okay. You could have become a park ranger. You could have done a lot of things. So it's being in nature. You had this watershed moment of enlightenment when you're 14. And it's like, be outside, be in nature, be connected. I'm using some of my own language there. But there's an element of consequence and adventure that is subtext to it. And I'm wondering how you answer to the traditional knock, which is like, okay, I get it. I hear what you're saying, but you're really selfish. You go away for two months, three months at a time, maybe longer on expeditions. You leave your family, your kids, not necessarily you, but maybe someone else. And you're putting your life at stake for your reward and they're at home a mess because dad might not come back. Like, come on, there's a selfishness to what you're doing. And you want to romanticize like being outside and having these enlightened experiences, but really you're just chasing something else and not, not attending to

the relationships at home. Yeah. This is not the first time I've heard that is something that I wrestle with a lot. And so before you, before you go into a Conrad, you know how I know that I know that. Okay. So I wrestle with that in my own life. And so, by the way, you don't have to be an adventure athlete to wrestle with the selfish nature of pursuing goals and pursuing a lifestyle. You call it workaholism. There's lots of ways that we don't attend. But I would love to hear your take response to that narrative. Yes.

Obviously, high altitude climbing is specifically a very dangerous pursuit. Going to the greater ranges and avalanche loss of life is far more dangerous than quotidian life day to day. We get that. And then layering up to it, we're doing it by our own volition. We're going out, we're choosing hardship and suffering and cold and lack of food for the thrill of doing it, the intrinsic reward we get of doing it. And yes, it is completely selfish, is completely ego driven. We want to be the biggest you notice that the strength

of my ego at a at a young climber in the 20s and 30s was different than what it was what it is today and so recognizing that as a driving force and when i was young it was an understanding to be like i was the first person to climb that and i did it in such a style that everyone else and then like have to come back and climb it in that same style or be really bold or i mean it's sort of these this posturing that takes place within the climbing community is very much tied in with ego and gatekeeping and what we do with it. So when people take on risk, we look at the police person or we look at the fire person that they have, you know, they're doing it on behalf of other people. And so when their life is cut short or compromised,

they then become heroes because they were protecting us from an evil entity, whether it's another nation or a criminal or medicine. We look at the people that are on the forefront of medicine, and they have a lot of risk. And so they, then society rewards them in sort of like a, as a person. But when you take it on by your own volition for something as frivolous as standing on top of a nondescript patch of snow at great risk to your family, then yes, it is selfish. And we have to kind of make peace with that and understand it. And the way in which that I look at it is we work, we are on this planet to cover our basic needs of food, shelter, clothing. And then once we have attended to those those or we don't let those three things become who we are that we then move on towards what we want to do in life our self-actualization and on my end it happened to be climbing mountains and so I'm certain that my mother would probably well and you were playing the recorder elementary school and why did you become a classical museum why did you have to go out and do this because of the risk associated with it um and so but

for whatever someone's goal in life when they find that whether it's surfing poetry surfing, poetry, theology, science, whatever you find, and then you work towards mastering that, then there is a higher calling to it. With the caveat that with what I do, if I had to die in the mountains, it's like a light bulb going pop short immediate pain but the people that are left behind they're the ones that have to understand a non-sequential passing of life so sequential life passing is grandparents die and then parents die and we understand that that's kind of what we're taught in kindergarten like eventually your pet bird's gonna die and so you know how do you work through that um but when it's non-sequential so when a parent loses a child um or when a spouse dies that's when there's lasting effect

within that circle of people that they're communicating with but then um how do you make amends for that how your headspace where you're at how things have changed so i might have gotten off on a tangent no no i mean there's um you addressed the selfish nature. You addressed the life of mastery. There's a greater calling. I do want to understand that a little bit. And then the non-sequential, that's a phrase that is new to me. So the non-sequential dying. Do you want your wife to die before you oh yeah how about that oh yeah this yeah we want to every

day we want with our with our wife and our family there to be us um and yeah aside from both of us waking up in the morning having it had a heart attack in the middle of the night, we have to kind of think about those things and where are they. My wife and I talk about that. Yeah. Like, you know, like, okay, one of us, it's probably not going to be a joint heart attack or something, you know, like the light bulb poof, you know, we definitely know that we don't want our son, you know, to go first, non-sequential to your point. And then, but so, I mean, what, what do you want? Do you want your wife to go first? And then you're, you know, she gets the poof and then uh you are i mean it's a weird question

but i wonder if you've ever been asked this yeah yeah i'm gonna share it with um because we're at that point where you know we're both at this age and what are we going to do for the next 20 years we're empty nesters so 7 000 days how we're going to make the most of them and what's going to be meaningful to us, but it would be, um, yeah, probably, um, if, if she perished first, then, um, she wouldn't have to go through the pain of me having lost my life. And i don't want her to have to go through that again so um that and and you still are climbing yeah not the high altitude stuff but yeah you know i'm knowing the risk and this as a surfer you're probably not paddling out to maverick on a daily basis. No, but I will tell you. I did not paddle Maverick, but I will tell you a funny story. I think you'll just appreciate this.

This is where I am in my life is that I was on the North Shore. It was three days after the Eddy, which the Eddy only runs when it's huge, 30 plus feet. And it was two days after the Eddy. So we watched the Eddy. It was amazing. And the day after it was two days after the Eddie. So we watched the Eddie. It was amazing. And the day after it was still too big for me. Two days after I had a plane to catch three days after. So it was the second day and I was like, Oh my God, I'm pretty out of shape, but like, it's good out

there. It's big. It's good. There's an imaginary line in all sport and life where it's like serious versus playful. There's this imaginary line. all sport and life where it's like serious versus playful. There's this imaginary line. And I knew it was a couple steps above the imaginary line. And my wife goes, you're not going out there, are you? And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to do it. Conrad, I paddled out.

It took me like, it took me 50 minutes to get just out the back. I was a disaster. I caught one wave and it was way too big for me. And I caught one wave and I was like, I'm going in. So I didn't have to walk a shame. I got one wave and then there was no chance I was going to try to paddle back out. And so it was like a moment where I was like, it's a different game for me now. I'm not 22 and it's a totally different game. and so have you had that moment on the mountain where you're like wait a minute but yeah a young person should be doing

this um this is not where I I should be because I know you had a heart attack on the mountain yeah that was that moment yeah that also that was a game changer 16th yeah November 16th. Yeah. November 16th, 2016. And on the side of Lunagri, which at the time was an inclined peak in Nepal and yeah, just heart attack came in and it was, um, and my climbing partner was half my age and, um, and he helped rescue me and keep, keep me alive. So that was, um, and I probably should have listened to that five years earlier but I kept pushing it for five extra years and so now I'm like oh I can climb I can climb something mellow it doesn't have to be that cutting edge stuff and as you realize yeah that um yeah you see what what uh young athletes are capable of doing when they...

What you have to lose equation doesn't loom as large. You and I, we grapple with that. We're like, where are we as a family person? Where are we career-wise? And we have to keep all of these dominoes in line to keep them from toppling over on themselves. So that are acceptable risk changes with age. And there's a variable in there. So it's acceptable risk, which is important. And then there's another variable, which is like purpose. So let me throw this thought experiment out at you, is that if you had the chance to be the first person to go to Mars today,

the suit is engineered exactly for you. There's your capabilities and skills and genetic predispositions. You're the one to go. And you had a 50% chance of coming back. Do you go? I'd go. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. And do you, do you go, do you go i'd go oh yeah okay yeah and do you do you go do you go for the experience for the notch do you go for purpose like what why do you go and you i love that you didn't hesitate even after we're talking about heart attacks death you know intimate relationships you're like yeah yeah i go why there's a toy i'd be like if you go to mars it's like a seven year time commitment could you live in like the the space bubbles suit or what would it be like and you know we have these science fiction that's done a great job of filling our

minds up with what space should be and thanks to star trek and star wars and dr no and all the films and stuff in between the ray bradbury and all the the science fiction writers that have given us that opportunity but to be on in that sense um the yeah the ego is would be like to be the first like i was on in my i don't know if that's the same degree of motivation that i would have that that that motivation would have been stronger earlier but a sense of discovery um and i guess at this point like okay we should the youth on this planet they need to be putting their minds towards how can we support the 7.4 billion people? How do we solve where we are with an oversubscribed planet?

And so this is like, oh yeah, we don't need to settle Mars until we figure out what's going on here. We know we can turn, Mars is uninhabitable, but if we don't take care of our own planet, our own planet is going to be uninhabitable. So there's that. Yeah. But I love your non-hesitation. You're like, oh yeah, I go. Okay. How often do you think about death? Because you're more practiced at it

from the non-sequential standpoint, certainly than 99.9% of the population. You're like, you're very practiced. But how often do you think about death? I really don't know. You might say, I don't think about it. Like, I'm thinking about life. No, I think about death. It's just here and where I am and knowing that the cost that the life I've chosen to lead that it's had, there's, um, yeah, I think of Alex, Alex Lowe, you know, never got to see his children grow up. I mean, that's a loss for him on that. I think of my other friends with that, but, um, it's, it's not like a gruesome, like, oh, it's scary.

So perhaps spool this back just a second. I don't go to violent movies. I just can't. Like if it's a movie that's got cops and robbers and guns and all that stuff, I'm like, I just can't do it. I don't watch them. It's not for me. And we think back 300 years and life was far more difficult for all humans on this planet. Childbirth was major consequence. There's infant mortality. I mean, you get through all these gauntlets of

life and you get to be an old person at age 40. And so, you know, things were, were, were vastly different in that sense. And so having experienced death in the vicinity through climbing accidents, and, you know, specifically the accident with Alex Lowe and David Bridges, and then coming back 16 years later and pulling their bodies out of the glacier and cremating them it's like yeah i understand death and mortality but not in a trivialized sensational way that is used to as entertainment but rather more like it's something that we're all going to face but we have to treat treat it with respect. And your idea of after we physically die, what happens? We get recycled. So we're carbon on this 4.5 billion year old planet. And so the recycler is is a is a gender fluid identity it doesn't necessarily be um a a god or anything like that but we just i mean we look at a deer that didn't make it through the winter and you see

the corpse of that deer disintegrating and then becoming eventually you know even the bones dissolve back into the earth and so I think that in that sense, where this carbon has been in my, it's been floating around this planet for four and a half billion years, it inhabited this body. I have a soul in the mind that, that brought it to where I am. Do you have a spiritual framework, like the spirit and the mind piece? Yeah, spirit. So yeah, this is, so the foundation of it is that I am an atheist. So there, I look at all the world's religions from a formative standpoint, where one there was to explain the cosmos. So why is the sun there? Why is, why are there clouds? Why is the world such and why volcanoes and and so we didn't have science

to understand that the other part of this the social contract which the underlying foundation of that is do unto others um as you do unto you to them and so that reciprocal like goodwill is the foundation of all the world's religions and i'm not an expert on comparative religions or anything like that but um so i'm um polycultural aware but try not to um appropriate different religions or anything like that but just seeing the beauty in them and respecting them and giving them um joy and space and respect and happiness so um i don't want to be antagonistic towards any other person's belief in the same way that my beliefs might not be anywhere in there. But if there was one unifying force in all this, and you can see this, this is my travel spoon, but for all of you that are listening in,

I'm dropping the spoon and it just went through the screen. That is gravity. And we are born and we struggle with gravity. We learn to walk or crawl and walk and play. And then if you're really a high disciple of gravity, you really challenge it so alex hondle climbing a cat without a roll rope i mean he's he's paid his dues worshiping gravity and then the end of the day we all cease to exist and we're um go back to um the carbon being reintegrated into the planet and what, in what manner does it sort of appear the next time? And, and then how do you, it's, it's a very brave statement. I find to say I'm an atheist and the reason I say brave and, you know, with some courage in there, because I find within myself.

So I was a spoon-fed christian catholic and then i was i happened to go to graduate school or undergraduate school to a jesuit school and the jesuits are in order in the catholic school that are like or catholic religion that are incredibly progressive and they basically beat religion out of me. Like, why do you think we should eat fish on Fridays? What is that about? When was the year that that was designed as a practice, Mike? And who owned the fishing wharfs at that time? Hmm. You know, and so it really gets you thinking like, wait a minute, there's other things in here to consider. And so I say that, I'm in dangerous territory of offending many people, but this is my unique experience is that it got me to second guess all of the rules

that religion installed in many respects. And the reason i say there's a courage and a bravery to say i'm an atheist because when i hear atheists i go oh okay so there's uh there's no god okay i don't believe in god and what happens after life if there's no god is that we just die and there's a reincarnation of carbon and i don't know if I'll come back as another human, but I'm saying, I'm declaring with great finality that I'm not going to heaven to meet Alex and my other loved ones that have passed. I'm just going to be recycled.

And so there's the courage bravery in that is that this physical form is done at the age our brain and our heart give out. And after that, so it's not, you're not buying the social contract for do good now because later there's a heaven and you'll be rewarded later. You're saying no do good now because that's that in and of itself is the,

is the reward. It's the means to live with it yeah yeah and it my where i'm at was a result of my mother so she was born in 33 and and um you know her her father was a switch train tracks and I mean, they weren't nobility in East Germany. They were just people of the land. And so she was born in 33. And so you can imagine at age 13, she experiences the firebombing of Dresden.

And so that's about from here to Belgrade, next town over in our valley here in Montana, Bozeman to Belgrade, a distance away. So you can imagine a 13-year-old child that's peals of laughter playing four square at elementary school. But none of that was there. And so she was like, oh, the trappings of religion, being she was Protestant. My father was born Catholic, then switched to becoming a Unitarian when we were kids and doing good and mission-based work as a family. And then after I started traveling to the Himalayas, coming back with Eastern Buddhist philosophy, he then became a Buddhist. And I'm not a Buddhist, but I enjoy, I respect, understand the philosophy in a good way.

But he became, went and became part of a temple and practiced that, which was a real. And my mother was like, no, we're just going to die and become worm food with her heavy German accent, worm food. Individuals were moral, but then society-wise, we become that construct kind of comes apart. Like, why is that as an individual, we're great people and we're doing good things, but then society wise, whereas what's that tipping point to then the atrocities that humans have done onto other humans? Why, why do those, why do they happen? And is religion complicit in that? And, you know, the amount of loss of life because of belief that is, yeah, I do slide shows and i'm in the public sphere people are like they come up and like hey you've got energy you have this charisma the lord is speaking

to you and then i have this conversation i'm like well i believe in gravity and molecules and dirt there's like this is this um and the individual is like hey jesus is talking to you you need to open up and let him into your life and i'm like well i'll try but um anyways we got off the tangent here no it's yeah i think you're hinting at something you know no no i think you're hinting at something. No, no, no. I think you're, so let me just give context, is that part of the understanding of mastery and you are somebody that has a deep mastery of your craft and certainly mastery of your inner life. And so what are the frameworks that you use? What are the practices that you develop, which we haven't talked about any practices yet,

but what are the practices that you develop, which we haven't talked about any practices yet, but what are the frameworks? This is all about frameworks so far, which is, yeah, when we die, we get recycled. So that would set up the next question. Well, how do I want to live? And you're saying, well, I want to live outside. I want to live with nature. I want to live in environments that are stimulating and I want to live where I have other people's backs. And I know I'm part of a community where they have my back and I'm really seeing other people and the time I have with them I want to see them and I want to be seen and I do kind of like the consequential nature of things because it's a forcing function for things to be true and pure and I think you also hinted in there um look i i i don't know but

like there's a lot of suffering and grief um i'm not sure if there's a omniscient omnipresent omnipotent omniscient being an all-loving all-caring all-knowing being that suffering would be part of the the process here but i i kind of extrapolated that. You didn't say that. But I paused there. What do you think? But Jimmy says that all the time. He's like, oh, you like to suffer, right? Yeah. I saw that in one of the movies. Yeah. It was one of the movies where he's like, why do you like suffering so much? So, okay. All that being said, let's just shift gears just a little bit here, which is what are some practices, you know, that are important for you to be aware, important for you to confidence or how do you develop that sense of calm in your life? But like, what are the practices that you have to be aware and to have a relationship with yourself and others that is true? Probably acceptance of the other person's circumstance and where they are.

So one to see each person as a friend that I hadn't seen for a long time, like, oh yeah, it's so good to see you. This is great. And so we had the, there was a connection that you and I had in that sense that, that welcoming that person to, to be, to be in there. And then understanding that what they have gone through, there's no, there's, there's no, we just don't know where that is. And it is an example. There's a fellow within our community that has been neuro generative challenge. And so the way he walks appears that from someone from the outside that he's inebriated. And, and it was, you know, I've seen fellow, I've never said hello to him, but I know him and I recognize him within my community. And it was like, we're driving down

and a friend and acquaintance was like oh looks like he just went for a bender he's still yeah it's 6 a.m we're on our way to go climbing and it looks like he's stumbling down the street i'm like no he he just went to the restaurant he has his takeout thing of food and it we have no idea and so that um I don't want it to be seen as being naive and getting taken advantage of because we, people that are from the wrong place are going to take that. But for someone that is in, um, an environment that we're not familiar with and what they're, what they're doing with it, we have no idea where, where they can be.

So to not judge people and to have other people not, not judge us as individuals. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. And you practice that. You don't have a formal practice of nonjudgmental like a meditation practice. You, you practice it in your waking moments when you recognize that you could be judging. You're like, wait a minute, hold on. I don't know their story. Let me not judge.

Yeah. And at times it's a test of patience. And so, yeah, when you're people like they're driving and there's glass between you and the vehicle and you're in these different worlds different lanes and then someone's like yelling at you or their vehicle is festooned with messaging that doesn't necessarily appeal to who you are but you're like okay i'm not gonna i'm not gonna flip that person off i not going to make a judgment based on their, the sticker they've put on the back of their car. I'm just going to wish them a good day and not to be like, Hey, that's,

and obviously there's the signaling that we do as people is, I mean, it's everything from microaggressions to full out in your face taunting. And so we have to be mindful of that. How do you, you are somebody who has pushed right up against the edges of physical boundaries, psychological barriers that have been created from a global perspective, a community perspective, and sometimes in your own mind, I'm sure. So you push right up against the edges. And then how do you work with the critique and the judgment that other people

make of you? Because so many, I'm sure many people thought that like your second trip up Maru, and I want to encourage everyone that's listening to go check out that documentary and check out torn as well. Um, how do you deal with other people's criticalness of you? The first step is probably not to listen to it. So I took away the direct messaging after, um, putting posts up about social justice, the environment, um, election integrity and people that don't see the same things. And it was just too much of, it was too much weight. I'm like, you don't need to yell at me. And if I've looked at it once, I don't need to look at it again. And it's, it's just, um, so trying to,

to limit what, um, people that are out there and they're just trying to get your goat, so to say, and, and, and antagonize someone with that. But, um, but then probably coming back to being centered with jennifer and i so we're like we have our family alex lost his life we created a household for the children and encouraged them to be students they've gone on they finished university and they're they're good people and that for us that is the what we set out to do and if someone's going to toss a sugar tip dart because they see things from a different moral vantage point then that's that own person's, but it's not going to be me. So I'm not going to,

and having endured enough of that to, to have a very strong distaste that knowing that I don't want to be that person towards other people. So. Got it. Okay. Cool framing. And then if you could sit with a master, one master, dead or alive, and if you could ask them one question, who would'd be great to sit with his holiness the Dalai Lama and gain wisdom with that and and and on me but then the other side of it's like who are these really these these people that have gone off the tracks and they're obviously malicious people to begin with and so to sit down with that person and want to be like what why did you do that and what are your internal justifications

and what can we learn to give back to society and so um in that sense not that you're going to get a good answer answer from that but by having those real conversations with the people that have obviously done ill to society what can we learn from them sure if i go talk to some sadhu sitting on the side of the mountain with enlightenment then it's about me becoming a better person, but what conversation would I have with people that we could then bring that around to have a, a more centered conversation. And that would include, you know, the tyrants and the evil people on this planet to the people that had tried as

best they can. And they really didn't, they weren't able to achieve their goal and their lives were cut short you know obviously martin luther king jr is an example of um of of someone that that would that would be within that but um these questions are great because they're like these are the sort of questions we sit at in a portal edge for three days so they're like, these are the sort of questions we sit at in a portal edge for three days. So they're like, people are like, oh, what do you do when you're stuck in a portal edge for three days? And it's always like, oh, we, we tell, you know, the same stories again and again, you'll have a food story when you're running out of food. You'd be like, oh yeah,

remember the time we had portobello mushrooms as the sun set and it was great food and then you go into like these sort of like the hypothetical questions would you go to mars um the new one is would you die before your spouse um those sort of and the other one is like if you had a million dollars to give away to charity what would you do with it if you were the president of the united states how would you you know all all of those things would you rather is this my my 13 year old asked me all the time okay dad ready would you rather lose your hand or your foot you know like would you rather you know not have food for you know a week or whatever like you know so would you rather fun games too but okay listen Conrad um I could sit with you

for a long time I just want to say thank you and oh thank you Michael yeah I've um I really appreciate again the contour of your words and how you've uh stitched ideas together I really appreciate the sincerity the depth the clarity the honesty honesty in how you respond, and the sense of contemplative kindness. And so with all of the respect for what you've done on mountains and how you've mentored others in the way of living that you found to be true to you. So I just want to say thank you. And I want to encourage people to read, to watch, to listen, check out Torn, check out Maru. Is there any other book or place that you'd like to guide people toward? Jenny's book, Forget Me Not, about our life together is a worthwhile read if

you want to look into more of what we're doing and but just overall being out there but it's interesting the last comment you had about your son at age 13 would you rather and it seems like we're always for children at that age is is they're trying to figure out the value set they're like what what is the hand or what's that worth or what would it be like i can remember that same question like what would we do to get the beatles back together at age 74 or something because they were like the coolest thing in our household and then they were like they split up and it would be like those those you know the child would you have vanilla or would you have strawberry ice cream or chocolate ice cream yeah right depending on the age yeah they're yeah they're asking bigger questions and they're trying to understand your value set and then and then uh and base on those so anyways there's a

great insight i i never fall for words oh yeah please and i never fall for the trap with my son or rarely i fall for the trap i go oh god oh God, great question. What do you think? And now he's on my game. He's like, dad, I asked you, you know, try not to fall for the trap, you know, so that he can explore his own value proposition and not be overly influenced by the adult in the room. But okay, listen, Conrad, I love what you've done. How would you title this conversation? Oh, lessons we've learned not making it to the summit. We're always like, oh, we've made it to the summit. And it's this great moment. And here it was, Beethoven's Night Symphony, and angels flew around and chest beating and

made it to the summit but the greatest lessons we have in life are not making it and so um to paraphrase oscar wilde there are two tragedies in life getting what you want and not getting what you want and finding that middle path where you get what you want some of the times but then other times you're like realizing that's not exactly what it is because on either extreme you'll have emotional dissonance so when you can be at peace with right there in the middle then you're you're going the right direction i love it you're a legend i appreciate you well thank you michael you're taking listeners out there. So I really appreciate it.

Oh, it's so good. And I'm sure you'll see Jimmy before I do. I don't know that for sure, but most likely. So give him a big hug for me. Will do. All the best. All the best. Take care.

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