Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Life Lessons from the Winningest Coach in College Sports | Paul Assaiante

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Paul Assaiante, one of the most decorated coaches in college sports history. For those unfamiliar, Paul is a legend – he is a two-time Olympic coach of the year, the “winningest coach in college sports history”, an inductee of the U.S. Squash Hall of Fame, and has won 17 NCAA championship titles at Trinity College where he is still the head coach of the Men’s Squash team today. You might also recognize Paul’s name from his first appearance on Finding Mastery back in 2016 – that’s episode #47 if you want to check it out.Paul has spent more than four decades coaching, motivating, and mentoring top athletes from around the world – and with how rapidly our culture is shifting, I was excited to have him back on to explore some of the changes he has observed over the last several years.The wisdom Paul displays is abundant, and I hope you’ll find as much value in this conversation as I did. We discuss how to prepare our children to succeed in a competitive world, the importance of failure, what it really means to win, and so much more._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. So the answer is when you're faced with something that makes you uneasy, go at it, go right at it. What you're going to find more often than not is it's a toothless old lady. You're going to find more often than not that the monster, the hairy thing you i'm your host dr michael gervais and by trade and training a high performance psychologist and today oh boy we're in for a good one today i am really excited to welcome coach paul asciante as our guest for this week's conversation. And I don't use this word lightly.

Paul is a legend. He's a two-time Olympic coach of the year. He is the winningest coach in college sports history for the United States. He was inducted into the U.S. Squash Hall of Fame. And he has won 17 NCAA championship titles at Trinity College, where he is still the head coach of the men's squash and tennis teams today. So you might recognize Paul's name from his first appearance on Finding Mastery back in 2016, episode number 47. How about that? If you want to check out that, I highly encourage you guys to check it out.

So just to get us started on round two here, Paul, how are you? Oh, I'm doing great and feel blessed to be back on the line with you, Dr. Michael. Ditto. Ditto. Okay. So when we were reconnecting via email to set up this conversation, you wrote something in an email, if it's okay that I share, that really stood out for me. You wrote, I am very concerned about where we are headed as a society with regard to preparing our children to succeed in a competitive world. We are not giving them ownership of their own journeys. So let's start there. What are some of the challenges that you're seeing in how children are being raised in today's society?

So I've been coaching for 45 years, and it all started for me at West Point, where I came upon a plaque on a wall of a quote from General MacArthur. And what the plaque said was, "'On the friendly fields of strife are sown the seeds that on later fields will bear the fruits of victory. And what that meant to me was you learn about yourself in athletic fields, the lessons that will help you be successful later

in life. Things like learning how to strategize, learning how to adjust on the fly, learning how to win, learning how to lose, learning that emotion is not your friend. And we're seeing this more and more relevance in our society today. The thing that I'm concerned about is I've seen a dramatic shift in the young people that are coming to our doors these days. And in this regard, they look more put together than they've ever looked before. They present beautifully. They're polished. And the first time they face adversity, they fall into a million pieces because they haven't learned that it's okay to fail. They haven't learned that actually losing is the playground of success.

They haven't learned the value of that. You know, as I tell my children, you cannot exhibit bravery if you aren't first afraid. And it's the same thing with resilience. You cannot demonstrate resilience if you haven't first failed. And this is a tough life. The world is not kind. You've got to be able to get off the mat, knock down 10 times, get up 11 times. But we're doing everything we can to make sure that they don't fail. And then we wonder why we're seeing more cheating today than we've ever seen before on the college level, because failure is not acceptable. And I, you know, I talk to my players

all the time, you know, guys, you would never play a double bounce on the court. You would never do that. But why would you even consider the possibility of cheating on an exam? It's not okay. Take the F. If that's an accurate measure of your knowledge, take the F. But if they've not been raised that way, and I get it, you know, I do get it. It's hard. You know, it's hard to let your child fail. It's hard to it hurts. Your heart hurts a little bit. But, you know, one of the things I noticed when it happens at a very young age, you watch your your son. He's 14 now. When he was a teeny one, he'd be walking down the hall in his diaper and he'd fall and he'd look at you. And if you went, he'd start to cry.

If he fell on his bum and you said, yay, he'd get up, wipe himself off and walk away. We're not letting them do that. Can you give an, first of all, before I jump into an example, you just dropped like 15 pearls in three minutes. And so it's not lost on me just how tightly condensed the insights and pearls of wisdom that you just shared are. And so I wanna slowly unpack those with you if that's okay to do.

Great, great. And maybe we just start in reverse order. The thought is that this is coming from one of the winningest coaches on the planet. And you're talking about the importance of failure. Okay, so yeah, I think that people hear that all the time. Adults hear it all the time. Help your kids fail. Fail fast.

Fail forward. Fail often. Like we hear it. And we hear it all the time. Help your kids fail, fail fast, fail forward, fail often. Like we hear it and we hear it as adults. And these are leaders in businesses talking to other leaders about them as adults embracing failure. So it's, I don't think as part of the diagnosis here that it's the kids not knowing it's the parents that don't understand it for themselves, so they can't teach it. And so it's going back up a generation about the way that I was raised and the way that I don't know what decade of life you're in, but so I'm in my 50s. The idea that my parents maybe didn't teach me the way that I want to teach kids to fail

is there's a thread in here somewhere from a generational standpoint. But before we get lost in that, can you give an example of why you think or where you've seen kids not experience failure? And you just gave one in diapers, but can you give one in maybe in the teenage years? Sure. So we have a young man that came here to play. I recruited him.

And a good player, maybe not upper echelon, but good, came from the right background, the right country club, the right private high school. And we started our matches to determine the lineup. And he battled and he was just on the outside of the starting lineup. I went to this young person's country club to give a speech. And when I was there, I met many friends of that family. And they would all come up and say, isn't it wonderful that Billy Sunshine is playing number five on the team? Well, Billy Sunshine wasn't playing number five on the team. Billy Sunshine wasn't in the starting lineup. They couldn't accept the fact

that maybe that was good enough. And that was eye-opening to me. And we hear this ROI now in young sports in society. People are making huge investments in time, emotion, and money. Not just in athletics, if you played the oboe or if you were a dancer or whatever it was. And it's very much the case that not that they see their child or we see our children as investments, but in fact, the process does feel like an investment. And as a result, we become very disappointed when they're not reaching what we thought they might reach. It's funny. Years ago, squash was viewed as a sport. Hey, you want to get into a good college?

Go take up squash. Because those are the kinds of schools that you want to go to. And the competition maybe isn't quite as deep as it would be in soccer or swimming. Well, guess what? We started bringing in international players. And last year in the elite 16 at the national championships, 14 of them were from foreign lands. Well, all of a sudden people were saying, well, wait a minute, the comp, now that's changed, we might not be able to get that ROI. And so you know what's happening?

Kids are leaving squash at an earlier age to take up sports like rowing or perhaps lacrosse, which is now exploding. But it's an inability to accept what in the world was the purpose of why they took up this activity to begin with. Yeah, there you go. Okay, so you're going to ladder it all the way back up to purpose to say, if we're going to, wait, let me see if I can get this right. If the diagnosis is that kids are not knowing how to fail and they fall into a million pieces as soon as they get close to or actually experience failure, that you're going way upstream and you're saying it's likely because the purpose that set them down the path that they're on now has some sort of fundamental flaw in it.

Is that fair for me to say? A hundred percent. And I would propose it's not a fundamental flaw within the youth. I think it's a fundamental flaw with the people supervising those young people's activities, parents, junior coaches, whatever. I was on a seminar. I was on a panel with one of the eminent sports psychologists in the world. It blew my mind. He got up and he had a blackboard and there were about 150 parents in the audience. And he said, okay, the big three, when your child

was born, what were the big three that you were hoping for your child? That my child is safe, that my child is healthy. You know, okay, great. Now you decided to put your child into an extracurricular activity. What were the big three? And my child learns confidence through participating in an activity that they learn how to play nice in the sandbox, whatever the big three were. And then he looked at the crowd and he said, so when you look at those six things, where in the journey did you collectively lose your minds and it was like oh my god i couldn't get away with saying that but he could point being all of a sudden it was i want to get this young person into the best spot in college

or the best school possible or but you know i it But I just think it's overblown. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage,

track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network

more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat,

and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them.

One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the

chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out.

Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. So tell you an interesting, fun story to back that up. Two of them that I think you're going to find interesting. One is a friend of mine. He's living in Africa right now. So he's an expat from the U.S.

And his kids are white. The majority of the community is not, obviously. And he lives in a nice house on the hill. And so he's got lots of privilege in the community that he's in. And his kids are training. They have private coaches. And, you know, in soccer, American football, as they call it. We call it soccer.

And so he's got private coaches. They've got cleats. They've got a nice jersey, nice uniform. And they're going to go play in a tournament and so all the kids are his kids are there warming up and you know they're moving around and they can pass pretty well and everything's looked pretty good and then he says all of a sudden kind of out of the fringes of um it's like a uh not a forest but there was like a tall brush right and so out of that almost like a corn, but there was like a tall brush. Right. And so out of that, almost like a cornfield, but there's no corn where he was.

But like, you can imagine that like coming out of this, the fringes of the, the, the background, uh, the other team walks up and they don't have shoes. Uh, they don't have a uniform and a Jersey and they walk up with all the fire in the belly, all of the intensity that you can imagine. And they walk up to this well manicured team and they square them up and they're like, you want to compete? And one of them brushes the shoulder of the other kid. And these are like 13, 14 year old kids. And they're like, welcome, you know, like we're going to kick your ass. And so what was the purpose of, you know, group one and group two?

You know, the purpose was very clear for group two that I just described. And I'm not talking about a commentary about anything other than the mindset that was expressed with the purpose that was behind it. And so I love where you naturally go is that purpose, like get your purpose right. And so if you could teach the kids that are struggling right now, if you could just speak into a 14-year-old right now, what would you say to them? And then there's a little bit of a glow that you'll get from the parents that are listening. By the way, there's not a lot of kids listening to us right now, but there's parents. And almost if you could be like a pseudo mentor for the parents on them listening to how you would speak to a 14-year-old that's struggling.

Sure. So first of all, I believe in the Japanese philosophy, which is that you cry in practice and you laugh in competition. So I want to make sure that the young people really prepared well. You're going into this contest and it's going to be a measure of one, how well you prepared. Two, how well you managed your emotions during the contest. And three, did you make good in-game adjustments? And lastly, who was the better player or the better team on that day? And there is some really powerful messaging and just being able to look across the line and say, you were better than me today, collectively or individually, or you

managed the moment better, or perhaps it meant more to you than it meant to me. But these are all bricks in the life that, in the house that you're building. Over and over, every opportunity is another brick, another brick, another brick. And it's all a part of the learning process. And the fear of failure prevents us from learning. One of the things I talk about, and I apologize if I'm talking too much, but I've started this new concept when I talk to young people, and I call it life lessons through Oreo cookies. And what I do is I give every young person two Oreo cookies. And I said, okay, stand it on its edge.

And I said, obviously, by looking at me, I really like Oreo cookies. So here we go. We're going to turn the Oreo cookie on its edge. One wafer is thought. The other wafer is action. There is absolutely irrefutable evidence that there's always a gap of time between thought and action. Now, the cream is the gap. The cream is the period of time. Now, in thought, we have tens of thousands of thoughts in a day. Many of them are terrible. And then there's a period of time to check yourself. And then there's action. Now I want

you all to take away for off of one cookie and another cookie. You're now going to make this a quadruple filled Oreo cookie, meaning you have given yourself increased time between thought and action to safely move forward in intense moments. Will Smith at the Academy Awards had no cream in his cookie. And so this is what I'm trying to help them understand. Now, once now I'm going to talk to the parents, once competition has ended, that is absolutely the wrong time to do any teaching. The internal temperature is up. The receptivity level is low. There's nothing to be accomplished by going up to a child after they've just, or even in the business world, somebody just blew a deal.

I consult for a hedge fund. Somebody just lost a hundred million dollars. Now's not the time to talk to that person about what we could have done better. I learned that the hard way. The time to do that is later when things have calmed down, when they're in a better headspace, even better if you filmed it, the next day or that night, you can sit down with them and say, this is what I saw. This is what you can see. You see what's going on here. Then learning can happen. Celebrate it. This didn't go well. What can we do differently next time? And I find that to be a wonderful process for all human behavior. Now, I used to think, well, all right, he lost. I'm not going to go talk to him. Well, then the student

athlete thought that I was angry at him. So what I do now is I go over, put my hand on his shoulder so he knows that I was there. Tough one. We'll talk later. Oftentimes they want to talk now. No, no, no. We'll talk later. And that's a great way to handle that. Great insights. The car ride home is why most kids end up leaving sport.

Yep, 100%. It's because the parent's anxiety is spilling into the kids, poor performance or whatever the parents thought was poor performance, even if it was a win. So can you hit those four questions one more time? Because all four of those questions were about the psychology of the experience or the emotions of the experience. But what were the four questions one more time? Well, the first one was how well did you prepare? Right. And that's something you, well, how well did you prepare? Right. And, and that's something you, well, I didn't really prepare that well. I've had the flu

or whatever it is, but I, my preparation going into this wasn't up to snuff, which interestingly enough, sometimes they play better in those conditions because their expectations are lower. You feel like, oh, I trained so well, I'm so ready for this, and I didn't do well. Well, what in the world just happened? Whereas, oh, I'm sick, I didn't really feel right, I had a great performance. Sometimes that happens. So how well did you prepare? How well did you make in-game adjustments? I think that this is something that we do in everyday life. We put so much time and energy and thought into preparing for things. And invariably, as the Stoics tell us, it almost never goes the way you think it's going to go.

And you need to trust yourself to be able to see what's happening and make an adjustment. And either it works out or it doesn't work out. You watch Belichick's teams. Whatever they are doing in the first half, when they come out the second half, there are going to be changes. Now, he doesn't get emotionally involved, so he can see clearly what's going on.

That's the second thing. How did you do with in-game adjustments? Third thing I'm having a little bit of a blank on. What was our third suggestion? Oh, it was emotions. Was it, um, some, how did you manage the emotions? That's a big deal. We talk to the young people all the time about, have you ever been on the road and saw somebody

in road rage? There, the period of time between thought and action is gone. You cannot perform in a state of road rage. You cannot perform emotional because if in-game adjustments is important to performance, then emotion blocks your ability to be cognizant of what's going on. I see this in advancement all the time. I work in fundraising at the college and I will have colleagues that will spend hours strategizing on how are we going to approach this? What are we going to suggest that the donor gives money to blah, blah, blah. I have fairly loose idea of what we're trying to accomplish. And I go

in and I watch the body language. I look at the eyes. I see what seems to be resonating. It's a dance. And you can't do that if you're just stuck in your head and you're emotional about what's going on. And then the last thing is the beautiful shake the hand and say, you were just too good for me today. Or you played really well today. I'm sorry that I didn't do better. I like the calm recognition of what went on as critically important. And I think far too often we're incapable of giving credit to the other person or the other team. And even in that, you can say, you know, you were great today. I'm sorry I wasn't able to give you my best game. That's also an honest

assessment. You cannot see all of those things clearly if you're all tied up in knots emotionally. How do you help people work with their emotions? What do you do as a coach to be able to work them through something that is, I mean, it's one of the more powerful human experiences is being gripped with emotion, whether that be love or whether that be fear or whether that is, you know, self-content, whatever it might be. Self-loathing, the imposteroster syndrome all of those things yeah to me i think we tend to approach this upside down and and in my opinion we tend to think i'm going to practice for something and then i hope in the heat of the moment i'm able to replicate the calm state that I was in during my preparation.

I think that is absolutely impossible. You know, the Galway thinking of, you know, just Zen being in the zone. You know, I look at it as a balloon and the balloon is your mind. And when you're in competition, the thoughts are coming at you like pins. They're going to prick the balloon. What I like to do is to say, all right, let's fill that balloon with cement. Let's just fill that balloon with what it is you're trying to accomplish. How are you feeling in the moment? Just be impervious.

So what I try to do in preparation is I try to make it really, really tough. And then on match day or game day, I try to take the pressure off. You know, people and I learned this from Mike Krzyzewski at West Point, by the way. But, you know, I'll never forget. It was Army Navy week and Mike was my neighbor at West Point. And I said, we're giving the team the day off tomorrow. So can I come watch your practice? He said, sure. I'm in Arvin Gymnasium five minutes. And he is absolutely a raging maniac, yelling, screaming, throwing things, throws everybody out of the gym.

So the next day I said, what set you off with practice today? And he said, what do you or yesterday? So what do you mean? I said, Well, you were really pretty out of control there. He said, Oh, no, no, no, I had scheduled that a couple of weeks ago, I knew I needed to get their attention. And, and the point and of course, you can only go to that so often. But the point being, make preparation tough. We see this in job interviews all the time. Kids have a job interview and the person is absolutely peppering them with questions or scenarios that really there's no answer for. And what they're looking for is to see how did this kid handle the stress?

That's how I did selection for the NFL for draft picks, is that it's not hard. It feels almost cheap, but it's not hard to create a physiological change in another person's state. You can shift physiology relatively easily. And then I would just wait. I'd ask, ask, ask, create some intensity, and I'd wait to see pupil change and skin color change, voice change, or some sort of breathing change. And then I would give him something that is nearly impossible to solve and watch how they respond. And you know, there was, there was some patterns, one pattern, Paul, as I wonder if you've seen this over the years, one pattern would be, they just push back. They push their chair away from the table. Like, what are we doing?

What's this got to do with? Yeah, right? They don't want to engage. I'm like, uh-oh. Then there's the other response, which is leaning in like, okay. Okay, I see where we're going. Okay, hold on. Hold on.

Let me think. It's like, oh, that's a competitor right there. And then there's some that just, they don't acknowledge the truth of the moment and they just struggle and they're gulping for air and they're sweating and they're trying to wipe the sweat away, like hoping I don't notice. I'm like, okay, they're competing, but they're not working from like this grounded place. So there's a handful of responses that show up. And which one are you, Paul, of those three I just mentioned? And there's a couple other, of course.

Well, you know, it's I would say that I'm probably not great on the receiving end because I'm just so insecure and I don't feel worthy of really anything. I do feel like I'm the great imposter and I'm waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say, you're out of here. You know, this was all a scam. But I will tell you this, when I was writing my book, Run to the Roar, one of the contributors to the book was Billie Jean King. And I will never forget this. And I tell this to companies all the time. She said to me, body language will tell you everything you need to know. To me, the most important quality that a leader can have is empathy. You truly need to be able to put yourself on the other side of the desk and understand where that person is coming from. And once you get to know that person well, I mean, really know where they're coming from, then the body language will tell you exactly where they are. You can look in their eyes when they walk where they are. You can look in their eyes when they walk in your office. You can tell from their shoulders. They're struggling. And

that's an opportunity to try to ask them gently, what's going on? How can I help you? Now, trust is a meal served with a teaspoon. It takes time. So I don't expect anything from my freshmen. I haven't learned their language yet. But the more times I give them an opportunity to un-cork, the more able we are to get to the bottom of what it is. And I always ask the same rhetorical question. What's the worst that can happen? What is the worst that can happen? I was speaking to a financial company recently, and it was interesting because I went to the party the night before and I listened to them. And I went to give my speech and I said, there seems to be a common thought in this firm and probably in the industry that because you're managing massive amounts of money, your job is the hardest job in the world.

You're under so much pressure. You know what? I had open heart surgery. My doctor had pressure. You're fine. If you're capable of getting a $10 million Christmas bonus, what's the worst that can happen? You're going to lose your job. And you have all the skill sets and all the talent to be able to start again. It's not so bad. So I go through life viewing myself as the chief perspective officer. My job is just to help people understand it ain't so bad. It's never quite as good as you think. It's never quite as bad. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family,

pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life.

And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine.

And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding mastery is brought to you by Felix gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present. And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood.

And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down.

And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com

and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code Finding Mastery 20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. When I'm in high-performing environments and I'm helping, at least that's the plan, is that sometimes when I'm adding perspective, let me tell you, let me try to work this out with you, is that I never endorse or condone this idea, let's go to battle, or this is war, or we are warriors. And the reason being is because I have such regard for just how intense war is. And I've never seen it, but loved ones that I care deeply about have. And I remind people all the time, what I'm trying to sort out with you is that this almost comes off callous, like I don't understand, but I'll give my work up about why we're not at battle, why this is not war, because I'll say, if we lose this, if you want to be a

warrior and you see yourself as a warrior and we lose this competition, what happens in real war from a tribal standpoint is that you die and maybe even worse, you watch them rape your loved ones and take your children. Right. And so, listen, this is entertainment. And the pushback I get is like, in some environments, is like, you don't understand us then. So how do you navigate that bit, which is, it feels like war because they could get hurt. There's a value in a warrior spirit. There's a value in a warrior's mind, but it is a rugged environment that has consequences,

but it is not war. So how do you navigate that perspective shifting thing? And yeah. Well, again, I coached at West Point for 13 years. So I know that on the battlefield, failure is death. And fortunately, I've seen a couple of ruptured Achilles tendons, and I've seen a couple of people have heart episodes in competition, but I've never seen anybody die on the fields. And in addition to that, I have seen people in the business world get themselves so worked up that their perspective is skewed. And the pressure is just, it's unfair. The self-imposed agony that they're going into before they ever get

there is just too much. This isn't war. This has nothing to do with the battle, the heroic. You know, our team here, they love to watch the movie 300 the day before the big match. Guys, you know, there's not a head of, you know, there's not a wall of heads here. We're not in that situation. You're going to go out there and you're going to give it everything you have. And you're going to do that out of respect for yourself and your team and out of respect for your opponent. You know, if you can beat that person, then beat them as badly as you can. That's respect. But no, it's not a battlefield. And, you know, obviously, look, I've been around the financial industry for 45 years. I have not. I don't have any money and I

don't own any stocks. But I've watched people who, you know, it's interesting the way it happens, Michael. If you pay me $100, I'm going to spend $100. If you pay me $200, I'm going to spend $200. And so I see people that all of a sudden now into a whole new tax bracket, and they're living on speculation, the country clubs and everything else. So the pressure of failure is great. So what does that mean? You tamp down the lifestyle, you hunker down together as a family and you figure it out and then you rebuild and grow but this isn't battle this isn't a battlefield so this is where i love what you're saying the neuroscience is that when people's identity is fused with what they do it actually can

it lights our brains light up in a way where it feels like death is a possibility because the risk of losing one's identity lights up in a very similar way to as if somebody were literally going to lose their life. Right. So it feels the same, although it's not the same. And I think our strategy in the perspective shifting is to give people to try to create a scenario to down-regulate the natural response that the brain is trying to light up for survival and instead help them light it up in a readiness standpoint as opposed to a survival mechanism, which is tricky to do. It's tricky to do. Sure, sure. So, okay, but there is a place I want to go with kids. So many kids come to you already in a world-class way. They're already best in the world to get even on your radar. And they see themselves as squash players. They have fused their identity. There's an identity foreclosure,

if you will. How do you help them through that? So I cheat. Actually, the way I do it is I cheat. We bring in people from around the world, and we have 11 different countries in this program this year. And some of them are former world, certainly former national champions. Some have played and made it far in world championships. They've done very well as individuals in this sport. And when they come here, I teach them a brand new activity. I teach them a brand new activity. I teach them team. And by getting them, and that's a hard buy-in. You've got a boy from Lahore, Pakistan, sitting next to a young man from Mumbai,

India. Their parents are not even talking to each other. And I'm trying to convince these boys that this is your brother. He is now your brother. And you've got to have his back. And you have to care as much about him as you care about your own accomplishments. And I do this over and over and over. When they come in as freshmen, they have no, or first years, to use a proper term these days, they don't buy into it. It's not really where they're at. But it's funny, when they graduate and you hear their parting speeches, they're always saying, you know, I didn't buy into that initially. And then it became the most important thing in my athletic experience. I also find that's true in the workplace. I was asked at a company recently to do a culture check.

I said, all right. So I went to the building early and I walked up and down the halls and people were sitting there with their headphones on and their doors were closed and they wanted to know, how's the culture? What culture?

People aren't communicating. There's nothing going on here. There's no glue. So if I could say, tell you a story, it's a little lengthy, but we have a little bit of time. Listen, your stories are world class.

Let's go. Yeah. So we were talking about team. So we went down to Princeton for the national championships. And I had a young man on my team from Mamo, Sweden, who was a good player. And Princeton had a young man on their team from Kuala Lumpur. My guy owned their guy. They played five times. My guy beat him 3-0 every time they played. So we go into the national finals and who's the pressure on? It's on my guy. So my guy goes in, their coach outcoached me. Their boy was more prepared than mine. And Gustav goes out there

and he's down 2-0. And I can tell from his body language, he's accepted defeat. He's done. He cannot find his way into this match anymore. He's confused. He comes off the court after the second game and I now have two minutes to coach him. So he sits down and I say, Goosey, look me in the eye. Nothing. I said, Gustav, look me in the eye. I picked up his chin and I said, look me in the eye. I said, Gustav, I know you've accepted failure. You're beaten, but you can't. Because on the court next to you is Bosset and he's fighting like crazy. On the next court is Joe and he's fighting like crazy. You cannot give in to this. By this time, I'm talking loudly.

And Gustav runs to get away from me. So I sit on the floor outside the court. And it's a glass back wall. So that every time he looks out the court, I'm pointing at him and saying, don't give up. Don't give up. So he's down two, love, five, love, first one to nine. But he's trying. He's trying to hang in there.

They have a long, arduous point. And they brush past each other. And the Princeton player puts his hand down. He sort of stumbles. And Gustav stands straight up, looks outside the court at me, and he smiles. Because he now knows he's won the match. He has found a way to stay in there long enough to get this guy tired. But if he was playing for himself that day, it never would have happened. But because he found a greater cause, the team, he was able to hang in there and win

that match. This ring exists because Gustav cared more about his teammates than he cared about himself. Okay. So you're hitting on the science of purpose, right? Which in one of the core elements of purpose is that it has to be bigger than you. Totally. So what you're doing is you're saying, right, they come to me as all-stars, identity foreclosed, I am an athlete, I am a squash player. And as an inoculation to that level of burden, that level of high stress,

you're saying, the way we're going to do it is we're going to snap to purpose. And by the way, your purpose now is to be a great community member. And you're going to compete for A, B, C, and D person, and you need to understand their for A, B, C, and D purpose and you are person and you need to understand their purpose as well. Right. So it's, yeah, it's a spider web, right? Okay. And how, how do you do it? Do you, do you spend, do you hydrate this over the course of the year in small drips or do you spend large chunks of time to get to know each other, to do that sort of under the hood type of get to know you? Like how do you do it? And maybe it's both. Yeah, it's a total immersion. We just all jump into the pond of team holding hands and it's,

you know, repetition, repetition. 25% of the team graduates and leaves. Twenty five percent new come in to constantly repeating the same stories. You know, the kids start to roll their eyes as they get to be upperclassmen. But it's more and more the same. Also, we give I'm a big fan of a rite of passage. I'm a big fan and loyalty and seniority. So our upperclassmen really sort of run the show and not in a hazing way, but more in a way of, look, I've been through this. I understand the message. I've drunk the Kool-Aid. Trust and it's going to work out OK. And, you know, we have we have young people that come in as freshmen that will play at the top of the lineup. And so we, yeah. So hold on. I just want to hit on, before you go to this kind of, um, this next bit of the story is that ambassadors of the culture is what you're talking about. And that takes time. And then the rite of passage. So we would do something really fun, um, in pro teams that I work with is that when a new person comes

in, we just drafted them or there's some sort of new experience for them into the already existing team. Maybe it's mid season, maybe it's preseason. There's a couple moments where if you're not careful, it feels like hazing, but it doesn't, you don't, you don't go to that level because it's during the kind of inside the walls of business. And, but it's a moment where like, oh, you guys just got me. Got it. Right. There's like, it's a fun, funny, poking fun. Like it just gets them into like a, a flushed emotional experience and then you take them off the hook. Right. And before it gets overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so are those the types of things that you do or is it different? Oh, it gets overwhelming. Out of control, yeah. Yeah, right. And so are those the types of things that you do or is it different?

Oh, it is that. It's all of that. It's all that. And it's also every year we have a new theme. So coming out of COVID, we had a famous philosopher come to the college and talk to the team about stoicism and the serenity prayer.

Because coming out of COVID, we learned we didn't have control and the team needed to bond together. You know, I had a professor one time asked me, he said, you know, I'm really jealous. You have such strong relations with your team. And I don't have that in my classroom. And I said, it's a function of time. I could spend 48 hours in a weekend with my team on a road trip. You get an hour three times a week. And he said, OK, so if we did role reversal tomorrow, what would you do with my class? And I said, I would take the miniature golfing. Get them away from the classroom. Get them away from why they're there. Get them to start caring about each other, knowing each other, joking, sarcasm, you know,

that kind of thing starts to build the spider web. You need to understand or, you know, the biggest challenge we face in our program is diversity in religion. Sure, there's color differences, there's socioeconomic differences, but when you've got a Hindu and you've got a Muslim, that's a very hard bond to build because it's ingrained in their minds. It's a whole different animal. So how long does it take for you to create the connection that you're like, oh, we're on it now? Well, it's always a process.

And we're never fully there because there's more growth still to go. But people ask me, what was your proudest national final? And I would honestly say my personally proudest national final was when we lost to Princeton 5-4. Because after the finals, both teams line up and they walk across the court and they shake hands. And during the ceremony, I looked at my players and they were all standing there, and they were all crying, snot running down their noses. They had gone all in for themselves and for each other. There was no holding back, tipping the toe in water. They were fully, that was a unit. And that was a great accomplishment to get them there. And so it's,. And so you never get there.

It's always a work in progress. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful

difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me,

that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day, and they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in, a shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better.

And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash FINDINGMASTERY.

I love that answer. And as I asked the question, I had the narrative in my head like it's almost like not the right, I don't, I've never, I've never seen it. Like we're there other than one time when we're heading into the Superbowl with one of the teams I was working with the NFL and the head coach says, can you feel this? Yeah. Yeah.

And it was 125 alpha competitors with their noses and toes is pointed in the same direction holding hands like it was unbelievable sure and so i'm sure you've had those moments sure and then when how did you when you lose the finals when you lose a big, when you don't meet your numbers and Wall Street is kicking your ass, and there's that moment. I was with one team that were a great team, a winning team, and we lost in dramatic fashion. And the culture frayed. It just blew apart the seams because they weren't snot crying like you described. There was all of the emotions. There was great anger. There was contempt. There was deep sadness. There was regret. There was so many things, but it was the anger that never dissipated in the way that I was like, okay, we can work through this. We can work through this, but it never really left. How would you have worked either ahead of the loss or

through the pain and the anger of the loss? How would you have managed that? I've never experienced in world team tennis and coaching at world championships or the teams here, I've never experienced anger after a defeat. I may have had one or two people be angry at their teammates because maybe someone came in and didn't handle the moment well, but I've never felt a collective anger. I have felt tremendous collective sadness. I have seen confusion, but I've never seen a team angry because, because what I want them to feel is the celebration of the moment. You know,

one of the things we try to do is we try to help them understand, everyone goes into competition hoping that you're going to win the football game 60 to 0. Well, guess what? It's not going to happen. So you've got to have the expectation that this is going to be brutal. It's going to be a roller coaster. We're going to be up. We're going to be down.

There's going to be mistakes on the field. So you need to expect it to be very, very difficult. And what I encourage our people to do when it's really tough, it's a tiebreaker, I want them to look up at the ceiling and say, I love this stuff. I love this stuff. I wanted this moment. I wanted it to be hard. Now, there's a difference between professional sport and amateur sport.

And I'm an educator. Bill Belichick is not an educator. They're learning a lot from that man. But that's a business. That's'm an educator. Bill Belichick is not an educator. They're learning a lot from that man. But that's a business. That's a bottom line. And tough decisions need to be made. Here, it's always part of the educational journey. It's a funny thing that happens in education today, Michael. At the end of a season, all the students fill out an evaluation of the coach. And I walked into the athletic director's office and he hands me a packet of evaluations. And I say, thank you very much, but I'm not going to read this. And he looks at me like, what is wrong with you? That's our system here. No, I do not care to know what an 18-year-old or a 19-year-old thinks about what I did this year.

If you want to give me an evaluation from graduates 10 years out, when life is beating them up a little bit and when they started to realize what really happened on the friendly fields of strike, I want to know what they thought. But I don't want to have an evaluation because of playing time or because somebody's feelings were hurt. Nobody asked me my opinion when I was 19, and I don't really care what theirs is. And I know that's an old man perspective, I realize that. Oh, God. Yeah. It's also like, you hear young professors now, they're like, I can't give out Bs because if I give out a B or B minus, like I might get a negative evaluation. If I get a negative evaluation, I can't teach him or blah, blah, blahoni parenting. We've got parents that are trying to help their kids do well in life. And they're not allowing them to leave some flesh on the concrete. They're not allowing them to get some bruises or feel the pains of going for it and coming up short. And I'm concerned about myself. And I just want to bring me into this just for a moment here. My son is 14. He's got everything I would have hoped I had at his age as resources internally and externally. I didn't have either of those sets when I was 14,

or I didn't know how to access them. Maybe they were there. And I don't understand how to help him strain. So, and maybe, maybe it's too young, but I, I think about when I was 14, you couldn't hold me back. And I had so much ability to strain. And coach, can you coach me as a parent on how to help a 14-year-old kid who's, listen, there's no discount for a high character, kind, empathetic. He's doing really great in life. But I'm trying to install this or amplify this, his ability to go to the edges and strain. So coach, how do you help me here? Well, first of all, going to the edges always has the risk of falling over the edge. That's the wonderful moment as a parent. Okay. We went a little too far here, but I want you to go right up against it. You know, how do we get to the point where you're really extending yourself?

The other thing I think, and this is a real problem, I think, in our country, is our kids are narrowing down into one thing, in my opinion, too quickly. But I understand it. If you're not keeping up with the lacrosse travel squads and everything else, your child might not be able to play on the team or something like that. But I want them, I want us to introduce so many things to our children at a young age. And then I want us to watch their passion, what they seem inclined or interested in doing and support that. Not because some soccer coach said, you know, Michael, your child could be the second Pele. That's a business person saying, you know what, you're supporting four activities now. That's four times what I'm getting paid. So let's bring it all under my roof. Find out what the child is excited about. If they're excited, they'll stretch and they'll strain because they're into it. That

that's really the bottom line. My daughter, it's like listening to Janis Joplin. This poor girl just can't sing, but she loves to sing. We support her singing career. It's painful, but she loves it. And I think and then in that come all the lessons of how do you handle failure? Did you do this bad? Blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to support what it is that they want to do. And, you know, we live in a society where we let them quit too fast. So, you know, if Susie signs up for softball and she comes home and she says, I'm not having fun anymore. Well, you signed up for Susie. So you're going to finish the season and then you don't have to play anymore.

You know, those are important lessons, too. But I think the children will be more inclined to stretch and strain if they buy into what they're doing because they truly care about it. That's to me, if you're really having a hard time helping that person get to that place, two things are happening. Either they're really not into it or they're afraid to fail. Let's fail, man. Let's get right in there. Let's see what we got. And that's my impression on it. And we see it all the time.

I'm sorry. Oh, okay. So I'll just flow with it. How do you define success and failure? How do I define success and failure? I define success by how well did you prepare for the activity? How did you do with in-game adjustments? How did you handle your emotions? You know, to me, that's success because it's part of the educational process. To me, failure is reaching a state of emotion or thought where you can accept not trying. The only thing I cannot accept is a person not being all in. You say that and I go, oh my God, because I feel like I've been swimming upstream with this definition of failure that I have, which is the unwillingness or inability to go for it.

And I feel like sometimes I'm on a different planet when I say it because people are like, no, it's a scoreboard. Okay. That's nice and philosophical coach, but it's scoreboard. Yeah. Okay. If you want to fail, focus on the scoreboard. Guaranteed. I've never seen a player in any activity running around with a score clicker. It's the meat of what you're doing. It's the nuts and bolts of the activity. It's how engaged are you? How are you doing? What are your adjustments? The scoreboard takes care of itself. Do you want your athletes to know the scoreboard, to know the score? No.

Yeah. I think I look, when I think about myself, like I love when the whistle blows and I come up, my head comes up and I'm like, okay, how'd we do? You know, like, cause I was busy giving my very best and helping other people do the same. And what, what, what is, okay. What is your scoreboard in your life? So I really screwed this up for the first two thirds of my career. I wrote a book as an apology to my three grown children because I wasn't there for them when they were growing up. Cats in the cradle, that whole thing. And so I wanted to apologize to those three children. And that and that made me realize what is important and what is important to me is the shared time, the lessons, the experiences.

And for me, the paycheck is when they come back or they reach back. Coach, do you remember that trip up to Rochester where the bus got stuck in the snow? Nobody ever remembers what number they played on the team. They seldom remember the snow. Nobody ever remembers what number they played on the team. They seldom remember the score. They remember, do you remember we had to eat cold food at Hobart because it wasn't working in the kit? You know, those are the things to me, it's all about the shared time. And when I go, I want them to stop for a moment and say, we had some interesting times together.

They weren't always fun, but I'm better for it. That's all I want. How are you doing? Can I ask a personal question about you and your son? In our previous conversation, you spoke so much about it, and so I want to encourage people again to go back because we talked a lot about the pain that you experienced with your family relationships. How are you doing? And maybe just share for some folks.

I don't want to put words in your mouth about your relationship with your son. But I do want to check in and just see how you're doing. Thank you for asking. Matthew, my son, was an addict, is an addict. And he is now living in New Hampshire. He has a partner. He works in a restaurant. He's finding his way.

I am always hopeful. I'm not always optimistic. I know that the battle he has to fight is far greater than the battle I will ever have to fight. I tell him I love him. I don't always like the decisions that he's making, but he's really trying to find his way in the world. And I have nothing but huge respect for what he's been through and where he is today. Awesome. Okay. Before we wrap up, and there's so many gems in here, so coach, thank you, is that can you explain the title Run to the Roar? And it's just so powerful. I'd love for you to

wrap that narrative into maybe a couple of ways that we can think about running to the roar, like very practical ways that we can think about doing it on a daily basis. Sure. So I am a neurotic mess. I go to a therapist and my shrink said to me one day, you know, coach, you are really an odd duck because I've never met anyone who is so conflict avoidant. You will do anything to avoid a debate, a conflict, anything.

And yet every weekend you take boys into competition. You relish it. You celebrate it. And so I'm going to tell you a story. And the story is a true story in that Africa in Africa, lions hunt and packs. They take with them the oldest female of the pride. She's usually toothless, old, blind, cannot catch her own food, very much like me. But she has the deepest roar. And what they do is they position the old lioness in the middle of the field, facing the bush.

All of the other lionesses, and it's the lionesses that do the hunting, all of the other lionesses are hiding in the bush. All of the other lionesses, and it's the lionesses that do the hunting, all of the other lionesses are hiding in the bush. So the prey is between the old lady and the bush. And when she roars, the prey run away from the roar to their death. So the answer is, when you're faced with something that makes you uneasy, go at it. Go right at it. What you're going to find more often than not is it's a toothless old lady. You're going to find more often than not that the monster, the hairy thing you have in your mind is, you know, insurmountable crisis is really not what you think it is. Go at it. Absolutely. And what we're finding is, I always tell that story with the same question, what's the worst that can happen?

Once you come to grips with that, you become heroic. The greatest fighters in the world in history were the samurai. Why? Because they embraced death. They actually thought it was glorious to lose in battle. So if you're not afraid to die, if you're excited, you become a fearless foe. And in my mind, if you can be excited to go at every challenge with enthusiasm, you can really be successful. Now, how do you do that with young people? I'm constantly telling our students, make lists, make lists. I show them how to do it. Make a list, top of the list here. Okay, that can wait till next week. Put an arrow. This is something that needs to be done today.

Put a star. This is something that can to be done today. Put a star. This is something that can go to the... Okay, so they're making lists, making lists, making lists. Now, tell me what on that list gives you butterflies. What on that list makes you nervous? Tomorrow, that's the first thing you're going to do. Get it out of the way. But what do we do?

We put it to the back. Procrastination, procrastination. It's to the next day procrastination, procrastination. It's to the next day. Now that hairy monster is even bigger in our psyches. You have great wisdom. You have demonstrated mastery. If you could sit down with a master of any form, dead or alive, and you could ask them

one question, who would it be? And what do you think that question would be? I think this is going to sound ridiculous, but I think I'd ask you. And I think what I would ask Michael is what's this all about? What's going on here? I have a friend that's dying of cancer. And I said to him, what's this all mean? What's this all about? And he said, purpose. He said, if you wake up in the morning and you say, I got to go to work, you haven't found your purpose. If you wake up and you say, I get to go to work, you have. I'd want to dig down with you on that. I'd want to know more about the esoteric and ethereal aspects of what are we doing and why.

And that would be really fun. I would love to do that with you. I would love to do that with you. And flattery is not lost on me. So let's do a part three and let's grab, let's grab a cup of tea and, and make that happen. Like I would love it. The people that know you are better for it. And I am too. I appreciate our friendship from a distance and you take up space and that's an energetic thing that just happens in my mind and my heart when I think about how you would respond

and how you engage with people. So coach, I just want to say thank you again for the authenticity, the clarity, the wisdom, the perspective and the practicality. Make lists. Feel your way through it. Take action. What scares you? Instead of goals, let's talk about what scares you. Let's be a team rather than a bunch of separate all-star individuals. Let's go further than the idea of traditional success and failure. Paul, I think that the love that you must experience from people in your life is tremendous. And yeah, so thank you for sharing it this direction as well.

Well, thank you for giving me a second chance. And there's part three coming. How about it, coach? I'm right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm honored. All right. Awesome. All the best to you. about it, coach? I'm right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm honored. All right. Awesome. All the best to you. Thank you, coach.

Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at finding mastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your

favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.