Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Living and Leading Authentically | Pete Carroll and Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: June 24, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Pete Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks and my business partner at Compete to Create.In this conversation, we decided to do something different -- we flipped the model a bit and for good reason.I'm incredibly excited to share that my first book, an Audible Original, is coming out on July 9th, titled: Compete to Create: An Approach to Living and Leading Authentically.I couldn’t be more honored to co-write it with Pete Carroll.So what’s different about this conversation?Beyond being overwhelmingly excited to announce our Audible Original release, we invited Sage Steele, ESPN SportsCenter host and recent Finding Mastery guest, to interview both Pete and myself.We discuss how we first got started working together, what we’ve come to learn about helping others explore their potential, and why we wanted to write a book together.Our new Audible Original offers an in-depth look at how world-class athletes, artists, entrepreneurs and top business leaders organize their inner lives to explore the edges of their potential – and at the same time live life with purpose and meaning.This book is about celebrating the insights and practices that are at the center of human flourishing.We pull back the curtain and reveal the psychological framework and mental skills that are common to great performers and leaders and show you how you can apply those same principles and practices to all areas of your life._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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who you are, nobody can take it away from you. It's incredibly powerful. No external circumstances can ever strip you from it okay welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm michael gervais and by trade and training i'm a sport and performance, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery. And what we want to do is we want to understand what are they searching for? How do they organize their life? What are the mental skills they use to build and refine their abilities to adjust and pivot to the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown. And that's really what this is about, is to learn and then to organize it in such a way that you can apply those insights to your own life.

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingy. And this week's conversation, it's a little different. It's with Sage Steele and Pete Carroll and myself. And Pete Carroll is the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, and he's my business partner at Compete to Create. In this conversation, we decided to do something different.

We flipped the model a bit, and it's for a really fun reason. I am incredibly excited to share that my first book, it's actually an Audible original. It's coming out on July 9th, and I couldn't be more honored to co-write it with Pete Carroll, head coach of the Seattle Seahawks. It's titled Compete to Create, An Approach to Living and Leading Authentically. So it's an in-depth look on how world-class athletes and artists and entrepreneurs and top business leaders, how they organize their inner lives to explore the edges, the reaches of their potential, and at the same time, live life with purpose and meaning.

Now this book, it's really about celebrating the insights and practices that are at the center of human flourishing. And I think we found that sweet spot between science and story and very applied ways for you to be able to practice those skills. So we pull back the curtain and hopefully the design is to reveal the psychological framework and mental skills that are common to great performers and leaders. And again, the whole goal is for you to be able to apply those same practices in all areas of your life. And if you've already taken our online course, Finding Your Best, as it's called, this is a great companion to your growth arc. And I'd be incredibly honored if you would pre-order it at audible.com slash compete to create. Again, it's audible.com slash compete to create.

And if you haven't had the chance, but still want to take the online course, we're offering $50 off when you go to compete to create.net forward slash finding mastery. So what's different about this conversation though? Beyond being overwhelmingly excited to announce the Audible original, the release of this book, we invited Sage Steele, ESPN's SportsCenter host, and a recent Finding Mastery guest to interview both Pete and myself. So we turned the mics back on ourselves. And Sage absolutely stands for authenticity. And so it was so apparent in her recent Finding Mastery interview. So if you haven't had the chance to check that out, I think you'll be pleased for the

time well spent there. So in this conversation, we talk about everything from how Coach and I first got started working together to what we've come to learn about helping others explore their potential. And it's not easy. It's not complicated. It just requires a fundamental organization of your life towards principles that matter most to you, and then working some mental skills that will help you be about that person

that you want to be, even when it's hard to be that person. And that's really what authenticity is, the consistency of being the man or woman that you want to be, even when it's hard, even when the environment is incredibly challenging. That's how we find out who we are. That's why we run to the edges, you know, really run to the edges of what's difficult and hard, what challenges us. And I know most of us in our community, the Finding Mastery community, I know we want to be in the thin herd, not because it's special and rare, but just because that's where we really find out who we are. That's why one of the reasons I love this community,

flat out love it. And again, I'm so excited to release this audio book, this Audible original. So again, pre-order at audible.com slash compete to create. And it comes out July 9th. And so hopefully the pre-order just absolutely smashes records. Let's make it happen. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Sage Steele, interviewing Coach Carol and myself. Okay. I actually can't believe this is happening. I am thrilled to be sitting in Dr. Michael Gervais' chair for, I mean, maybe 30, 45 minutes, 60 minutes, depending on how I do. If not, you're nodding. He can kick me out. You're still in charge of this, Dr. Gervais. Thank you so much. It is an honor to get to talk to you again and to get to talk to Coach Pete Carroll for the

first time, really, which I can't believe it's taken all these years for me to be able to say I've met Coach Carroll. Thank you both. Thank you for having me and for allowing me to do this, Michael. Seriously, I don't know that you know what you got yourself into. Well, Coach and I were talking about who would, who would we really enjoy having this conversation with? And you're right there at the number one pole position, top of the list. So we're honored to do this with you. So thank you. Well, this, this is pressure, but it's truly an honor for me. And here's the thing. I, you didn't know this, but I've been learning from both of you for years, you know, from a distance. And so

I think that's why I was so excited that you asked, because there's so much to learn. And it's just a matter of whether or not you're willing to do the work, right? We talked about that many times. So it's always about the work. So here we go. That's the thing. For those people who are familiar with your work together, it's phenomenal. For those of you who are not, well, get ready, because the two of you together, in my mind, you're a powerhouse. And I know that you've worked together for years now in Seattle. I think we'll get into that a lot more in a little bit. But the huge project that, you know, if you're one of the cool kids, you say it's about to drop, right?

An Audible original. And it's awesome. It's deep. It's thought-provoking. Challenging is the word that I like to use, again, because it's work, but it's a matter of how great you want to be. And here it is officially. It's called Compete to Create, an Approach to Living and Leading Authentically. And Dr. Treve, you know what that word authentic means to me. And that's why to me, this is so attractive. So for those of you that recognize the title,

rightfully so, because it's been around. Is that correct? Is it 2013? Since YouTube really began working together on Compete to Create, that title, right? Yeah, it's been well, it's kind of we've morphed into the title a little bit after that. but we've been working together for all that time. Yeah. We were like eight or nine years or something going on. It feels like forever, right? Mike, we've been, we've been hooked up. So yeah, no, it's been a blast. I think you're supposed to say it feels like it's just been overnight, right? No, it's been a lot of games, a lot of games, Mike, a lot of games, a lot of games. And I'll just start the note here is that,'ve learned so much from working with you, coach, and being part of the organization that you put together with the Seattle Seahawks and the culture and what you're doing, that this book, this business that we have together, this joint venture is the way I like to think about it. It's super's some it's my best work and so um yeah so i'm i'm absolutely stoked to continue to pull on the threads that you know and unwind some of the stuff that we're

putting together yeah we've had a really good time doing it and sage for a really long time you know i had people kind of asking me you know can i be this or that to help your team help your team win all that and i kept turning people away when i I ran into Mike and we were introduced from a mutual friend, we started talking and we hit it off. And really the foundation of how Mike was trained and the foundation of how I've been trained, I don't know if I was trained, but whatever I was, but we really did see eye to eye.

And so we've spent numbers of years now working at trying to help people play really well and win and have the best fun that they can create through their sport. And it's been a blast. And so with that, there's a lot of stuff that we put together that we've really kind of come to own. And so we're thrilled to share it. We got a chance. If you can imagine, we're calling it Audible Original. Can you imagine that, Mike?

You did it. We did it. Somehow we got from start to finish. That's the hard part. It's not that, Mike? He did it. It'd be really fun. Somehow we got from start to finish. That's the hard part. It's not that it's such this monumental accomplishment. It's just that we finished something together that we're really proud of. So that was hard. Well, that's the thing. That's what I look forward to hearing about and for you to dive into a little bit more is what it took to get to this. Because listen, people like me, and when I'm cleaning the house late at night, I just push play and I just listen. And that's the easy part, but the work that it took

to get to the point where I can push play, that's what I want to get to. But I also want to real quick say, I mean, we all make choices and coach, you were just saying you have a million different people that you could have said, Hey, I want to work with you. And the fact that you too, it's a choice to choose to work. It's all about the people. It's all about the team, as we all know. And that's why to me, this is really special. So let's make sure we make that very clear, an audible original. And that's a big deal. I know exactly what that means. I've listened to some of those. So that's the thing. You've had your training courses for many, many years, but this is another level. How did you get to this point? Michael, if you want to start, how did this project begin? Okay. So the, the audible original,

the, the, it feels like a book, right? And I know it's not technically supposed to be called a book, but it, it's an experience where you listen to the science, the stories, and the very applied practices to help you train your mind, to organize your inner life so that you can do the same for others, right? And so this is a book about helping people in the most simple of terms, find their very best so they can help others do the very same. And where did it start? It started with a coach and I, you know, thinking about like, how, how can, how can he build and continue to amplify and grow on what he already had established the culture at Seattle Seahawks and stemming back to USC, you know, what are some of the innovations that can, we can continue to move forward with?

And that's kind of the impetus of where it started. And the shared space is really about how do you organize and train the mind? And then how can we do that for people who want to be their very best? What are some of those systems? What are some of those practices? Yeah, it's all skills. We've realized, and I didn't, I got to really tell you, Sage, I didn't know for years what I was doing, if there was anything to it. Mike helped me understand the science behind some of the things that we had founded our self-following way back. And it just

became a little more ordered and a little more organized. And as we saw it start to become somewhat of a system, then it just kind of started to fall into place. And Mike was working with a lot of people in the corporate world and in the performance world as well. And it just started to take enough shape and form that we wanted to see if we could share it. And we had people that were interested too. People were coming to us and coaches and leaders and stuff. And so after a while, we said, let's see what we can do with it and how we put it together. So that's where the problem is because it's hard to put an order of a book together and with two different people doing it. Mike really took the lead on it, and I supported him all the way throughout,

knowing that our experience together would become part of the storyline. And so it's been a real work of labor of love and all that. We're really thrilled that it's finally completed. You know, I want to add to this. It was somewhere in our conversations where Pete, you said, we just got to get some stuff down in writing. You know, like we've got, we've got this course that, you know, for the business folks and we just got to get some, just make it nice and easy and something small and simple. That's where we started. Something small and simple. And it turned into like a significant, you know, it feels to me, it's the first quote unquote book that I've done, but it feels like a significant lift. And so, yeah, so that's how it book. So to get to the point where we put this together was really going against the grain.

And I'm really thrilled that Mike and my daughter, Jamie, who worked with us, they helped us stay organized and stay on course to create something. So we're proud of it. So it's crazy. I liken that, actually, because I've heard about the book writing process. And I've recently just begun mine. It could be a decade before it comes out. But it's like you say, you go through, you get pregnant, and you go through childbirth, and you're like, I will never do that again.

And now I have three, like, what happens in between where you forget about the pain of the process of writing the book, because you willingly went and did this again? Yeah, that's a mom's amnesia. You guys just forget. I don't know how it's so trying. And then you come back, hey, let's do it again. You know, and with all the love and all that, you make your way back to reality and you do the right thing. Beginning to end. How long was the process? You tell me, Mike. I don't know. Yeah, I think it was probably three years. Yeah. Does that sound right? Yeah. Pretty hard to nail me down, Sage. I'm kind of like a balloon with the air going out of it, you know, so I'm hard to follow.

That's awful. Okay. So having written a book and then this, where again, audible, original, audio, whenever I've done any kind of writing, it's one thing if it's for broadcast, it's another thing if it's for print, it's a different kind of writing. To me, how did that feel for you guys? Go ahead, Pete. Yeah, what was that like for you? Well, my part of it was to comment about things that Mike had stated. And so for me, it was more like speaking. I think, Mike, yours was speaking and writing. I think you really went through that combination. To me, I was really kind of just commenting on the things that had been said and things that we believed in and all that. So it was more like responding to the material. And so I thought mine was pretty easy, to tell you the truth. It just took a long time. It takes so long

to get it all coordinated. If you ever built a house, Sage, you know what it's like to finish the house. It's hard to finish these projects these projects. Um, I I'll quit complaining about it, but cause we got it done, but, um, it really wasn't that difficult in that sense that the actual work, because we've done this so much and we've been in it so much that, that to share the ideas and the thoughts really kind of come, come quite fluently. You know, one of the things, so there is this fluid nature of, and it's a bit romantic to think that we're just going to talk into a mic and it's going to eloquently just pop out. There's more work to it. And one of the things we wanted to make sure that for all of the claims that we had or references to science, that we were standing on the shoulder of good science.

So everything is annotated. It's all reference driven. And so we've got this nice, really strong bit of research that's supporting the points and the practices that we're sharing that we do collectively and what we share with others so that people can activate simply, you know, but it's all stood. It's really this intersection, I think, between three things. Tell me what you think about this, Pete, is that when we first met, it was like the approach was lockstep. And then it was when you double click, it was this ancient wisdom meets science meets rubber hits the road where it has to work in high performing, rugged, consequential environments. Or it's kind of just academic. And I don't want to we love the academic world, but it has to work in the real world. I think it's fun to think that we were able to connect stuff that Mike has found support for over the years that we were doing. And it just brought some more sense to it and brought more conviction to the messaging and more of a commitment and a confidence to it. And so that's why I've enjoyed the process of us working together for such a long time.

I've been coaching for, you know, 40 years or whatever it is, and really going from my gut, you know, and running and bumping my head against all kinds of concepts and principles and not knowing. But I just kept forging through and following myself. Well, fortunately, a numbers of people that we have collaborated with over the years have given us more support and more, you know, backing to what we're doing and where I couldn't see that. I couldn't see the golden thread that ran throughout. Others were able to help me see that. And so Mike was a big factor in all of that. So I think it's one thing to know between the two of you that you've got something,

you've got something that's special. And no matter how great it is, unfortunately in business, it does take others to say, hey, they do have something good here and I'm learning from it. And then word gets spread and it grows. What point, at what point did you guys know, all right, the outside world,

like everybody else is getting this too. This is as special as we thought it could be. Was there a turning point where you're like, ding, ding, ding? What I would tell you is that I'm the last one to buy into that. And I have been over the years because there's been a lot of people over the years that wanted to ask a lot of questions and try to dig in. And I kept thinking, nah, it's just ball, you know, it's just football, you know, and, you know, there ain't nothing here. And, but there was, there have been some, some trigger moments that really made sense and added to the validity of stuff. And people that, it usually comes from people that you hold in high regard, people you respect highly, and they come to you and they say

stuff and then they want to know more and they're digging in. And, and I, look, I've just been hard to convince, you know, I just haven't seen the magic there. So, um, but I think now I do think that I do think that there's something really special and it's, it's come down so much that it's coming from, from our heart. And I know my heart in particular, that it's what we're teaching and what we stand for is really feels true. And, and that's why that authentic word comes up because I don't want to do anything that's not authentic and really purely coming right from the center of me. So that's why all my stuff comes from competition, because I'm a competitor. And as long as I stick close to that,

I know that I'm close to the source. But the validation kind of got handed to us enough times where it made sense that we got to go. And I'm thrilled about sharing now because everything that we really do, Sage, comes from love. It comes from caring so much about the people that you deal with and how far will you go to help them. And Mike has helped with all the,

really the skills that it takes to help people train their minds and get to a point where they really can value the mindset that they need to be at their best. And so it's been really fun. So I'm hoping that we're just getting started after these years. I hope we're really just starting to turn on the corner now.

But that's what comes through to me from a distance, from across the country with this conversation and just in listening to you and watching you doing your various things, interviews, Coach, just after a game, whatever it is. And Michael, thank goodness for social media as well. I mean, you are, you're everywhere. And just to be able to follow, you can tell it comes from the heart. And to me, I'm checking out if it doesn't, like, I feel like I can kind of see through. And that's when you take people to another level. I think people are intuitive and can see through

it. What was their turning point for you, Mike, where you heard from the outside and were like, this is really going somewhere? There was a big buzz, obviously, when the Seahawks went to the Super Bowl. And so there's a lot of attention in those moments or that phase. And I remember a conversation, Pete, you and I had, like, it was the stuff that we were trying to amplify or support or challenge inside of the organization. And let me say this really clearly, is that the athletes in the building are exceptional, right? And there's, right, they are exceptional in so many phases. And there's only three things that you can train. You can train your craft, your body, and your mind. And so John and Pete, John Schneider, the GM, the two of them together and their supporting team pull together athletes that are phenomenal in all three phases with a high willingness to learn.

And so it's like you just got to get the culture, which is the artifact of relationships. I want to talk about that in a minute, right? But you just got to get the culture in a place where people can point their noses in the same direction, which is, that is a legitimate skill to be able to create that culture. And coach, I want to lob that to you. And then create the internal space for people to not have the noise and the distractions so that they can do their very best work. They can train their mind, their body, and their craft and have a great time expressing themselves in the most authentic way. So how did it play back?

During that Super Bowl phase, it was as if the media was saying things and as if they were in the locker room, as if they were in the hallways, the principles were sound. So we heard it come back, which was the first time I've ever heard or felt something like that take place. And so I don't know if you want to talk about that, Pete, that was a really interesting or powerful moment to hear the narrative almost played back, the words, the science, the practices. Well, you know, to me, when you have, all coaches are trying to put their philosophy in motion and try to, you know, when they're trying to set in motion a winning ways and a mentality that can allow you to win and practice regimen and all that kind of stuff. And so I'm not doing anything different than anybody else did, but I've done it long enough where somewhere along the way, it became really clearly apparent that if you're going to have a chance to make it,

you better be coming right from your heart because you're going to get pounded in so many ways and pulled and tugged and challenged in so many ways that you have to get your act together. And so when that started to happen, it really was on my way into USC. And that was when the things that now we look back and we would refer to as culture and aspects of our environment that we create for our whole program and all that, that's when that all started. And when we went to the NFL, we continued to have an opportunity to create culture and to create an environment that may be somewhat

successful if we're lucky, you know, and that all kind of took place. And so everybody does that and everybody has a culture. They just don't, sometimes they don't know that they're in control of it to some extent and you can do what you want with it. There's a culture there anyway, is that the one you want, is that the one that serves you best? You know, that's what we've been working at for so long. And to do everything exactly right and to have all the great players and the great leadership, it's still hard to win. It's still so darn hard to win. I can't, this is just another aspect of the program that

eventually turns out a product that you put on the field and hopefully over a long period of time, you're successful. Like Mike said, and Mike, I'm not really addressing your question so much, but like Mike said, if the players don't go out there and do the job and play the game that they love and all, at their closest to their potential, then you're never going to find your best. And so this was one aspect of it that we found that we thought we had a kind of a rhythm to,

and we could create and recreate. And the recreation part of it comes because you have a clue what you're doing, you know? And that's really important in being successful over a long period of time. So it's all part of, you know, what we've tried to make. And so now the thing that's fun about it, Sage, is that we have a chance maybe to share some of the mentality that people can take and go wherever they are in their world. And it's not just sports. It's not just football. It's really, well, way more than that. And so if they can find it in our stuff, it would be great. And if they can't and they challenge us and help us learn how to do it better, that's all I want. I just want to get better. And so we'll take it kind of as a challenge to the competition out there. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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to make it all work and just make magic happen, right? But was there a moment, and I hope I'm not getting off topic, but was there a moment when you realized you know what you want, but then there's a difference in how to actually make that culture happen. Because that's what you had to do

at the college level quickly, right? Yeah, I wasn't really loved on the way into USC. I kind of snuck in the back door there because there was a lot of people that thought that was a mistake. But there was a time when I got to a point where I was really, really confident that I had something that I could present. And I couldn't wait to get there. And the fact that I wasn't received real well at SC was kind of like, okay, that makes sense.

It wasn't going to matter. They weren't going to factor in. The outside world wasn't going to have any say in what was going to happen here because it just seemed to click that if we really were true to the principles that we believed in, that at least we'd get as good as we could be. Now, I didn't know how good that was going to be. I didn't know we were going to win all those games and all that. But I felt confident enough we were going to find a way to be really pretty darn good

and pretty close to it. And I was just anxious we were going to find a way to be really pretty darn good and pretty close to it. And I was just anxious to see it happen. The cool thing really was, I mean, there's never a better time in my life than the years that we were at USC. That whole surge and effect and all those people in such a tremendous way with so much fun and the school and the environment and everything about it was, you know, you went all that for that long. It was really, really just a cherished time frame. But the cool challenge came from, OK, let's see what happens when we take all this to the NFL and see if you love people up and you care for them. And that's the number one concern.

Will that find its way to consistency and winning? And I had no clue. I really didn't. But I had an inkling that maybe it could happen, you know, and, and they were, you know, the Seattle people were, they presented the opportunity that I don't know how, you know, how I was convinced. But it just seemed like such a great challenge. And I wanted to see what would happen if we treated professional athletes in the same manner. And so we really didn't do anything different. And so

it was really about bringing in a mentality and an approach and then working our butt off with great people in the front office and in the personnel side of it to get us and churn the players through that would eventually, you know, become really the heart and soul of the whole program. And it was really, it's been really exciting to see that we've been able to find consistency. You never win enough. Those frickin' Super Bowls are so hard to get to and they're so hard to win and then to come back and do it. And we were so close for the second one time in a row. It was very similar to the years in SC.

That third time we had a chance to win three straight. And we're this far in both those opportunities. So you cherish those challenges. But I really think it's when I really think that it's looking back at the big picture well after the fact, when you say, you know, what you accomplished and what you did. And the consistency is really something I'm really proud of. And because I think that system and I think it's philosophy, different players, different coaches, and all that, I take a lot of pride in that, you know. But it's always looking back.

It's never like where you are right now. You know, there's, there's something really important here. And I know you got a couple questions loaded up Sage, but there's two things I want to share. One is if we're not careful, this sounds like a charismatic leader that's got his stuff together with great ideas, which is, which feels like. No, no, right. I know, but that's what it looks like. And so I just want to say, like, when, okay, when I was, I don't know, by week three, observing what you're doing, it takes me a little bit of time. Self-efficacy theory, authored by Albert Bandor, one of the greatest psychologists, you know, still living. He'll go down in the history books. So Pete is putting into action self-efficacy theory, self-determination theory by Ryan and DC. He's putting in place Abraham

Maslow's work and the hierarchy of needs. And so just those three, they are so evident that those three are front and center. It's like, it just washes over you like, oh, there it is. And then you get into the stuff like the mental skills, the science of it. And so we can just go down a litany of how he uses imagination to help people see and imagine their very best, whether it's while they're practicing or in the quiet, you know, in their room. And so we can just go down the list of the skills that he was already putting in place. So when you're talking about being able to repeat it, that's the key word, Sage. And so it's not like you're trying to repeat the wins. They happen if you can get some other stuff right. And the other stuff is how do you create a

culture? How do you have a system to help people train their minds? And that's what we want to share. You can train confidence. It's a skill. You can train optimism and that skill happens to be, we believe at the center of mental toughness. Why would you stick with something that's hard if you don't fundamentally believe that it's going to work out? And then, and so I could go on and on about the skill piece, but I want to hit, cause you said like, when did you have an idea it was right and it wasn't, it was probably, I don't it was probably i don't know maybe our third get my third game with your coach and um this is 2013 yeah

no i think it was 22 i think it was my second year probably yeah the third year yeah one two three no it's 20 i was 2011, 2012. Might be 12. I think it's 12. The Atlanta year. That's the Atlanta year, right? The Atlanta year. Yeah. And so it was probably about three months in, but it was my third game, somewhere in that range.

And I'll keep the player out of it, but it was game day. And there was a player that was running late. And it was a noble reason why he was running late. And I didn't have a good relationship with him yet. You know, just kind of high, how you doing that type of stuff. And he was rushed and here I am, you know, trying to add value. And I walk up to him as he's kind of late and I'm missing my cues. And I say, Hey, I just want to say congrats. And he looked up at me like, what the F are you doing in my space right now? I said, oh my God.

Oh, I know which player it is now. Oh yeah. You know exactly who it is. And I said, oh my good. Like I realized I stepped right in the big pile. And so I looked at him, I said, you're right. And so I slowly backed up, you know, and so not really, I'm trying to actually just like minimize that moment. And the next day, Sunday comes around. And sure enough, in the hallway, three or four people had come up to me like staff and coaches like, hey, I want to talk to you about something, because the athlete was not happy. And this is an evidence of a relationship-based organization where it's not just words. So I approach the athlete to apologize. And I go up to him and I say, hey, do you have a minute? I want to talk to you. And he's like, yeah. He knew.

And so we're in the hallway and we have our moment. And I say, hey, I just really want to say I totally missed and I apologized. And he said, you know, I appreciate it. That was it. And then from there, we ended up having this really strong relationship together and details left out of the play here. But that's how this stuff works. If people are always pissed or protected or anxious, it's hard to have a relationship. So a relationship-based approach is really built on the idea that we can govern ourselves. We can have right thoughts and we can govern our emotions and we can be available. We can, as coach likes to say, give people a pass.

We all make mistakes. And so that's not an error that happened on the field. It's an error that happened in the building. And those need to be worked out as well. So this isn't reserved. It's a long way of me saying this isn't reserved just for athletics. This is reserved for people who want to have great relationships because they know that they need each other. There's more to go.

And the future is bright when we can do stuff together. You owned that moment where you're like, okay, bad timing. And the next day, and then you have to like sleep on it. And then think about it leading up to when you know, you're going to see him at some point the next day. And it's this hall and, and, and you owned it. And even though his reaction might've been a little bit cold like you knew it was the right thing and deep down he i wonder if that for him was like a turning point because he said your relationship from there grew but i think that's one of the things as someone who um i don't manage anybody i will never i'm not a boss at espn or at any network i've ever worked at i have three kids i'd like to think I'm in charge of them, but they will tell me that I'm not, right? So I am being led and I'm desperate, desperate for good leadership. And I think, I know it's so, so rare to have good leadership.

And part of being a good leader is doing what you did and owning it. And sometimes they click, my bad, I'm sorry. And the vulnerability, right? And Pete, I was going to ask you, so when you're trying to transition and going from a college atmosphere to the professional atmosphere, it's like, okay, let me see if this works now with the big boys. Were you afraid? Was there fear in you going up north? No, no, that wasn't really the feeling at all. Because I I, because I kind of felt that they, they probably let me hang around for two or three years and kick me out. And, you know, if it didn't work, it didn't work, you know? So I was just going to go for it no matter what.

And at that point, you know, I had, um, you know, enough confidence that we were onto something. And so I, and I, honestly, I wouldn't have taken it as a defeat if, if it didn't work out. I just would have said, Oh, this didn't fit, you know, and all that. Because I knew what we had accomplished and where we had gone down the SC. So I was a little different than that. So my confidence level was really high. And the conviction to what we were doing, I didn't know what the results would be. But instinctively, you know, if you treat people really well and you really care,

I mean, if you undeniably care and you work at it, what we say, we compete at it. We're competing to show them how much we care. Then most likely things are going to turn out okay. I just hope, who knew we were going to get Russell Wilson? Along comes Russell Wilson, and we win famously since the years he's been there. The numbers and the stats and the stuff are just remarkable through his leadership. And Bobby Wagner, they came in at the same time. Those two guys have led such an extraordinary run of a franchise.

It's hard to win like this. It's hard to be coming back and all that. We're so proud of it. And who would have known? But when you put it all together, it worked out. And I really came across two extraordinary competitors in Bobby and Russell. And they just kind of set the tone. They've been there, and we've recognized that.

We've paid them because of it. Russell, highest paid guy in the NFL. He deserves it. In our program, there's nobody that's more valuable. And Bobby has sent the message so consistently. But that all came through, I think, finding the right guys because John found the right people that would fit with me and would help me be a good coach. And we just kept adding to it. And it turned into a really cool mix and product. And it all came from Karen. It all came

about loving the kids up and helping them be the very best they could possibly be. No matter whether you're kicking them in the butt or you're loving them up and hugging them up you know from a to z and uh yeah but here's the thing you it's not an accident though and as good as those two young men are like they they still they were fortunate in many ways because they entered into the right culture that was not accidentally created like you you knew what you needed to do what you wanted to do and what was successful. And so, yes, this from them, but they had the right people at the top, allowing them to go be themselves and do what they did. And that's the beautiful thing is because it takes everybody, not just the talent. That's a really good point, Sage, because without the guys to follow the,

you know, and along the whole process with us you know the coaching staff and we've had a lot of guys come through and have been successful moved on and all of that those guys be willing to buy into an approach and a mentality and get caught up and let themselves be captured up and all that they're the guys that do this on the you know moment to moment nose to nose with these guys basis. And, and, uh, so it took everybody to, to, to make it happen, you know? And, and, uh, so I, you know, I appreciate, you know, all that other stuff, but really this is so many factors in here, you know, and, and if you forget how humble you need to remain, you're going to screw it up, you know? And so anyway, it's, it's been a blast.

There's, there's a moment where we were sharing and I'll keep the corporation out of it, but we were sharing these practices and this approach with a corporation leadership in a, in a significant corporation. And they kept asking the question question, like, well then, but how do you do it like as if there was four steps to care and seven steps to love and 12 steps to be a competitor you know like like how how how and everybody wants the how well we didn't quite realize that that would be a miss and so i pete maybe you can talk about how you address that when corporate folks or people in business outside of sport. That question was, well, how do you coach somebody? You know, as fundamental as the question is, that is when somebody doesn't have a connection to that. Oh, well, I guess that is a good question.

How do you coach somebody? So that's been fun because it's challenged us to figure out how to communicate, you know, how you do that. And somebody who can't relate, they want to help people, but they don't know. So, you know, there's some steps along the way to get that done. But that's an interesting part of it. They wanted to know, okay, this is the science. This is the thought. Here's the results.

I get it. Okay, but wait a minute. How am I going to make that person better, you know? And so it's been fun. And there's some magic in there. But it starts with caring so much that you're going to figure it out. How are you going to communicate? You start off showing them how much you care,

and then how much you see in them, what you see that they're capable of becoming, and challenging them to start to get into that conversation as well. And then once you have that conversation, and you kind of come to an agreement, yeah, this you're, you're all this, you know, then it's helping them stay in connection with that along the way as they learn and grow and falter and get challenged and then take steps forward and take steps backwards. You stay with them and continue to keep them in

connection with that vision that you've created with them. And that's, that's kind of how it happens. You know, whether you're a ball coach or you're coaching in the corporate world. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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And that goes, so first of all, everything is a competition. Compete, compete as individuals. And that goes so far. First of all, everything is a competition. Compete, compete, compete everywhere. We know that part. That was funny. Sorry, my bad. That's my bad. Sorry. I love it. I love it. But secondly, that's the part that resonated with me, is that you make the decision to treat everybody as individuals. And that is hard work because it's the psychology of knowing what works with each Of those players and you got a few of them you have 53 of them Minimum right and so I think that's the beautiful thing whether it's 53 of them or you know an entire department ideas piano anywhere else Mike I mean that it's so much easier said than done but the importance of leading by caring about your people,

it's just endless as far as how far that can go and how much it can help you, right? Yeah. So it's really hard to do nearly impossible if you're flooded with anxiety. And anxiety reported as a clinical disorder, about 30% of people that live in the Western world suffer from a mental disorder called anxiety. And I say that with such compassion because it is a suffering experience. 30%. It's really hard to get out of your own way when you're terrified that the future is not going to work out, that this moment is evidence that it's not going to work out later. And so part of that is like, okay, if you really want to care, you've got to do some work. And the work is to switch from trying to get you to be just okay and kind of take the energy

from around you and latch on to people that are really strong because they're going to take care of you. No, no, no. The idea is, okay, how can I take care of myself, this chronic fear that I have so that I can focus my energy, I can focus my attention on helping others. And if you can do that day in and day out, and Bill Russell's got a great insight that he shared with coach, that is kind of at the center of making, you know, like a culture work. Again, culture is the artifact of relationships. So it's right at the center of making, you know, like a culture work. Again, culture is the artifact of relationships. So it's right at the center of it. Getting out of the way of defending yourself, because you think like the whole world's coming at you. You can't give when you're in that mode, you know, you can't give to the people around you. If you're feeling like every turn, you know,

you better look out here, look out there, you can't be free flowing, you're in a protection mode. And so that's part of it, we have to work our way through, get into an environment where you feel connected and you feel like you belong and you feel safe enough that you're okay to be vulnerable, to be opened up and to be receptive and know that people care about you. If there's one little message that I wish we could get across to people is that it's OK to care. It's OK to show that you care. And it's, you know, people are hesitant to want to do that because they feel like maybe they think it's weakness or they think that it's misguided or whatever. I think it's the start of the great growth. You know, it's the beginning of your march forward with the challenge or the person that you're dealing with.

You have to get there. And, you know, think about the corporate world. There's a lot of it. They're not real concerned. There's a bunch of people that are. And those are usually the people that are going the farthest, staying the longest, and reaching the greatest heights. And so that's what we think anyway. We may be all screwed up, but that's what we think.

And so we's what we think anyway. We may be all screwed up, but that's what we think. And so we're living that. Maybe you can give me an example of something recent or something that you'll always keep with you. Showing someone that you cared and that you saw a difference that it made. Is there anything that stands out? Because especially with you guys, men, and it's different. The expectations are different, frankly, for men. But just to let it all go, like, how do you show them? Pete, let me take this one first, because I think you've got a really good one.

But I just wanted to share this note that it was 18 years. No, it's actually 22 years ago. I started a nonprofit called Late Night Sports. It was to give these practices to folks that couldn't afford it. And it was 183, I'm sorry, 130 young men that would show up. We would rent a gym with three basketball courts. We'd have music, we'd have DJ. And it was an amazing experience. It was where I was every Saturday night for 18 years of my life. And it was where I was working out the applied nature of psychology, sports psychology. And the basketball in that gym, Sage was above the rim. He's really good talent. All over Los

Angeles would show up every Saturday night and play ball. It was incredible. And people would say all the time, like when they walk in, like and like, oh, my goodness, these guys are unbelievable. Like, are these guys pros, or what college are they going to? The takeaway was that they cared too much about looking cool. They didn't care about caring. So it was not okay to care. It was not okay to look like a fool for something that you care about. And so they were much more concerned with what other people were thinking of them. So they'd play it safe. They'd

play it small. They couldn't really let go unless it was like the alpha macho kind of, you know what I'm trying to, like this, just this unacceptable nature for people to get to a place of anger. And that was the only kind of thing that they felt comfortable doing. And so when you look at folks that, that, and what, to your point about caring, it's like, if you really care, you'll look like a fool. Yes. Yeah. Because the thing, the thing that you care about is much more important than how you look. And so there's freedom. And I just wanted to hit that note, but Pete, I know I mean, I have so many examples of this. But let me take you back to like one of the most obvious, most rudimentary issues. Back in the SC days, there was kids that

they did everything they could to get thrown out of school. I mean, everything you could think of, you know, academically, on campus, in the sport, not showing up, whatever it was. And I remember saying to a number of different guys, look, I don't care how hard you try. I'm not kicking you out of here. So you might as well quit trying so darn hard and just come along with the program because I'm going to be here standing.

I'm not going to let you get out of here. I know that's what you're fighting for right now. You just want to see if I'm going to cut here standing. I'm not going to let you get out of here. I know that's what you're fighting for right now. You just want to see if I'm going to cut you loose. I'm not doing it, you know? And so, you know, it was kind of like, you know, I'm going to stay here. I'm going to be here at the end of this thing and I'm going to be seeing you through it and we're going to make it through it. And that was, you know, because some kids just, they just kind of just wanted to prove again that you were going to see it in them, that they weren't going to make it. And I was not going to be that, you know. And so it was nothing heroic.

It was just like, stop trying so darn hard. You know, you got so much to offer and so much to give. That's to me was like the ultimate and I'm going to care for you no matter what. It's kind of like your kid. Now, you got three kids right now. I mean, how much, how much do you love your kids? How far will you go to prove that you love them? Well, if you love somebody, you'll go as far as you have to go to the ultimate end.

If that's what it takes. You'll do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. And so that, you know, that's, you know, that's the commitment that I think it is there for us to jump on. And, and yeah, it makes you vulnerable. He makes you look bad. You know, why did you, this guy doesn't belong to be here anymore. He's let it get him out of here. No, you know, I'm going to hang myself out and hang with it because I know this guy could make it if we don't give up on him. You know,

that's, that's the kind of commitment to Karen that I think it really shows, you know, you give to others and you, you give them an opportunity to really do something special they might not have done otherwise. I think it's the way you do it. You know, sometimes there's harsh news to deliver. And that's the difficult part of the businesses that everybody is in. But it's not just the words sometimes. How do you do it? Sit them down.

I know sometimes with my kids, if it's a difficult conversation, I'll get on the floor and then have them in the chair. So they feel a little bit more in control. I don't know. Maybe that's crazy. You just want them to feel not threatened and loved, even if it's bad news, even if you are grounded for whatever. And I think that's the part. Michael, I think I told you before, I'm obsessed with failure right now and fear, those two things and pushing through when you are scared to death, you know, in whatever way, because what comes on the other side of it goes back to the culture of knowing that, no, no, no. If you make this mistake, you're not getting cut. You're not getting fired. We're still going to bring you back. And what do we take from it? How do we learn? Only if you make it twice. So fear and failure are temporary and pretty incredible motivators. They're a bit dangerous, right? And they are on the other side of it. And I'm not advocating for them. I'm just saying that

sometimes people will do work harder or longer or whatever out of fear, you know, and, and failure and fear are also great constrictors. The fear of failure, you know, the fear of looking bad, the fear of what other people, they're great constrictors of authentically living and so you know that's why the mental skills for me are so important it's like okay let's actually get some skills on board so you can manage this runaway train sometimes this negative train of thought this fear-based train of thought you know so you can actually get off that train if you want to this will take us kind of down a different road here but um what what we have come to face right now and what's going on in our communities right now has brought to light again for the thousandth, millionth time, how important it is for us to take care of the

people in our communities. And we have an opportunity to make a choice of what you're going to do about it, how you're going to do it. Or if you're going to or you're not going to. And I don't think that there's ever been a time that's more ready for us to show how much we love the people around us, wherever they come from, whatever colors their skin is, whatever their background is. And I know that there's a lot of work to be done in a lot of ways, voting issues and legislature issues. But I don't know that there's anything more important right now. And I'm going to stay with what I know. I don't know how to do anything else.

But loving the black people that are close to us that we can relate to and we can have the opportunity to connect with is so crucial. It's so crucial that we understand without that willingness, we're not going to feel their pain and we're not going to understand the story and we're not going to make the right choices on how to show to care. And I don't know that there's any time more important in our lives than to love the people around us. And right now, black lives are so important to love. And we should have learned it hundreds of years ago. But now more than ever, let's love our way back through this situation and turn it so that all people understand how much black lives matter. And it's more of a challenge in the white world than the white people think.

But it's there to be done. And it's not a hard process. There's all kinds of work to be done, but there's nothing more important than just downright caring and loving for the people around us, just because they're there, just because they need it and deserve it, just like everybody else. And so, I don't know, that's why I think a lot of the things that we feel so strongly about now in our work just continues to show us why we should stay with it and keep working at it and make sense of it and see if we can help people be just better at what we find so much with our players you know we've been we've been going through this off season and in really in the zoom world and we've heard from so many

kids and and as we've always heard from these kids but not not like now even more than ever uh because you can feel you can feel the newness of people saying oh really i didn't get it that way i didn't see it that way i wish i would see it that way. I wish I would have seen that earlier. I wish I would have known it earlier. And, and it's a, it's a really rich time. It's a rich time for people of the heart. And so, you know, anyway, sorry about there. I'm not sorry. I take the apology back. That's like a hashtag. Sorry, not sorry. That's the thing. Yeah. There you go. I will say this.

I think there's so many conversations that need to be had. And that's the key word is conversation. By the way, it goes across the board. And I think one of the things I've missed recently from the pandemic on, from when we all started to be quarantined, which for me was on March 16th, on and, you know, your everyday actions going to the grocery store with a mask on and driving. I miss seeing people smile because you can't see it. It's hidden. I'm looking more closely now and I can, you can see it in eyes, right? Especially if you're getting a little like me and there's more wrinkles and you squint and you can see theint. And, and I mean, I thrive on that. And I didn't realize how much I missed it until I couldn't see it. And sometimes that can go so far as we try to mend fences, I don't know, just to all be better

and more sensitive to your point P to each other. A smile can go up. Sometimes it isn't even words. It's that gesture that goes such a long way. And it's, it's, it's eyes and it's, it's knowing and it's, I understand that I'm trying and I'm here. A smile. It's really simple. I think that's, that's how we can begin, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's, you know, there's been an interesting, um, kind of a new awareness that I'm, I'm sensing. And I think our players are sensing and everybody that's operating through the technology that when our listening skills have been elevated because when one person is talking

and you're sitting in a room, you're sitting behind them or alongside them and all that, you can feel the energy to a certain extent. But now when one person is talking, they're all you can see. And the expressions, I know we yearn to draw the emotion from our exchanges because we lack it some because we're apart. It's brought us to a

different sense of sensibility and empathy, I think, because you feel that one person telling and sharing their thoughts and their stories. It's been really fascinating. And I think it's been something that's brought all of our guys working together throughout this last two months we've been together on Zoom. It's brought us closer. And I'm really, really grateful for that opportunity, unfortunately, under the circumstances. But there's some new sensitivities for us, and there's some new awareness for us that will give us a chance to do better, be better, get closer, love more, and love more deeply. And it's really exciting.

To me, I'm so optimistic about the future in this country. And some people hate me for being a glass half full kind of girl. That's just how I always will be. I think it's crucial. And especially now, not that you're ignoring the crap that's out there, but there's still so much good if we choose to look at that. So I do think that there's so many silver linings that can come from it if we all make that decision, because it truly is a personal decision and it starts at home with your neighbors

and your kids and the C word, the conversations, just to talk about the understanding. And by the way, Ryan Clark, a friend of ours, you know, former NFL player at ESPN, a friend of mine, and he tweeted something really cool last week, I thought. And that was when people ask to help and to listen, allow them to do it. And don't, well, you're not doing it the right way. You're not saying the right thing. You're not apologizing the right way, Drew Brees. Stop. Stop. Like when people are genuinely out there trying, listen, allow them to do that. And so I do think those conversations, again, it doesn't discriminate. It goes always as far as really listening to each other if we all want to get better. And it takes looking in the

mirror. Listen, you all have helped millions over the last several years, but this was a different project and the Audible original, you know? So if you had to pick one thing of the many that you hope people take from this when they're done listening, one thing, what is it? The value of doing the hard work to, you know, the self-discovery stuff. I think there's so much value there. And if people would just recognize that if you just do the work and stick with it, there's nothing academic about it that you can't handle. There's nothing too scientific.

It's just doing the work to just keep asking yourself the questions of, you know, what do I believe in? You know, what's important to me? That there's so much value that comes from that when you really declare it. And if you go through that process, if nothing else happens, that's what I hope people would take from it. Because again, we always find ourselves beginning with self-discovery. And we did again, you know, in this work. And I'll just leave it at that. That's really the part that's most important to me. What we work to do is to give a structure and a format where you

can put handles to this invisible world of psychology, you know, so that you can really get your arms around it. And self-discovery, it's a real process and there's no right and wrong. It just takes a commitment to understand. And the reason why there's five pillars that we work from, I'll explain those in a minute. But one of the reasons this is so important is because once you know who you are, nobody can take it away from you. It's incredibly powerful. No external circumstances can ever strip you from it. And so that part, when you think about psychology in general, there are two basic parts of psychology. There's the discovery processes, and then there's the skill development.

And I think we found that simple yet still deep integration between the two to be able to say, okay, here's an accelerated way for self-discovery. And then here are the skills that you can invest in, calm, confidence, focus, trusting oneself, optimism, all of that stuff. But the five pillars that we work from are self-discovery, mindset skills, psychological framework. And the framework is like, how do you explain yourself in the world? How do you explain events? What's your outlook? And then recovery practices, which is how to sleep well and eat well and move well, how to restore yourself. And then the fifth pillar is mindfulness. So my long way of getting to what I hope people will walk away with is I'll say yes and to

you, coach, is that yes, self-discovery and a commitment to mindfulness. And I know that it is a buzzword and it's popular. It's been around 2,600 years. The science is ridiculous. It is one of the great accelerants for people to live in the present moment more often. And the present moment is so precious because that's where high performance is expressed in the most mechanical way. It's where wisdom is revealed. And it's also where all things that are good, true and beautiful are experienced. So I think our job as being human is our responsibility is to live in the present moment more often. But to do that requires a training of the mind. It requires a deep commitment to discovery. And mindfulness is one of those golden threads that

is an accelerant to that path. See how much work we all have to do, Sage? We got a lot of work to do, don't we? I have no hope. Yeah. No, that's the thing is, it is, it's a beautiful, difficult, but beautiful process. And my hope for my children and my friends and strangers out there is that they don't take as long as I have taken to figure out that it's right here on a silver platter waiting for me to come grab it, waiting for me to go do that work. And Michael, I saw this recently. I'm sure you've said it a million times, but I saw it recently that you said that you're on a stage somewhere. Everything you need is already inside of you. And it's, of course, it sounds so

simple. We all know that it's not, but that's exciting. No, we do know that stage. It is inside. Everything's there. It's right there, but it's the realization of that, right? Where I'm, for my whole life, I'm looking all over the place for other things. And here's the how to. And the whole time it's been right there. And that's my point is that I don't want people to wait. Hello, hit myself in the head. Trying to figure it out because it is a beautiful, powerful thing. And you know what?

Gosh, it is easier. At the end of the day, it ends up being easier. It's like, let go of all the other stuff. I'm good with who I am. And then those around you who you love get to benefit as well. Oh, I don't know. I love you guys. Nice job.

Well done. Well said. So here's the final. I mean, everybody, pay attention here. Again, compete to create an approach to living and leading authentically. That's my word, right? Dr. Mike? That was it.

Yes. The premiere is July 9th, Thursday, July 9th, exclusively on Audible. Did I just host a Finding Mastery podcast? You did. Yes, you did. Yes. First one. Hey, listen, if you didn't knock the doors down with your authenticity as, you know, a guest. Yeah. So you earned it. You earned the first ever spot as the host of Finding Mastery. Yeah. Thank you, Sage. Thank you, coach.

Yeah. Well, thank you too. I love learning from you guys and I love that the world gets to continue hearing it because thank you. There you go. That's awesome. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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