Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Los Angeles Lakers Head Coach Luke Walton on Coaching, Leadership, Relationships

Episode Date: October 11, 2017

On this podcast, we get to hear from many different vantage points: artists, scientist, elite military, politicians, those who run highly successful businesses, and those who have been on the razor’s edge in the sports arena.When it comes to elite sport, there’s a rare breed that have succeeded as both player and coach — and winning championships in both roles is almost unheard of.That is why I wanted to sit down with Luke Walton, head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers.Luke played in the NBA for 10 years, winning 2 championships.He’s coached for 4 years, winning one NBA title with the Golden State Warriors.But even more important to his track record, Luke is flat-out a phenomenal human being.He was hired as the 26th head coach in Lakers franchise history, the eighth individual to both play and coach for the organization, and is the youngest coach in the NBA.Luke has been around the game of basketball and legends his entire life.His dad, Bill, played under John Wooden at UCLA, is a member of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame and was named one of the NBA’s 50 Greatest Players. The father/son duo are the only pair in NBA history to both win multiple NBA titles.Luke’s had the fortune of being coached by and playing with the likes of Lute Olson, Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O’Neal, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, and the list goes on and on.In this conversation, we talk about the impact these people have had on the way he looks at life and how he thinks about improvement.We discuss how relationships impact performance.We talk about the mindset that is required to make it at the professional level and why he believes mindfulness is an important part of that equation.I hope this conversation gives you some wonderful insight into how Luke approaches learning, living, growing and being in relationships to bring the best out of each other._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and millions of people watching across the world, my hands get sweaty thinking about that right now. But in reality of it, it's the same free throw I shot a million times in my career. It's just I'm letting outside factors influence the way my brain is processing this free throw. And looking at it like that, I have complete control of pressure situations. It's how much do I want to allow those outside factors to make this more challenging for me. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn. And in this conversation, it is a absolute

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daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. And on this podcast, we get to hear from lots of different vantage points, artists and scientists, elite military, politicians, people who run highly successful businesses, and those who have been on the razor's edge in the sports arena. And when it comes to elite sport, there's a rare breed that have succeeded as both player and coach. And winning championships in both roles is nearly unheard of. And that's why I want to sit down with Luke Walton, head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers. Luke played in the NBA for 10 years, winning two championships. Phenomenal. He coached for four years, winning one title with the Golden State Warriors. But even more important than his track record is Luke is a phenomenal human being. And it's just a testament to his path, having high character, staying the course,

being able to pursue his unique path. And we all have unique paths. And at the same time, understanding winning at every level. Okay. So Luke was hired as the 26th head coach in the Lakers franchise history and putting him as the youngest coach in the NBA. And he's been around the game of basketball with legends his entire life. His dad, Bill Walton, played under legendary coach John Wooden at UCLA. And he's a member of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame and was named one of the NBA's 50 greatest players. And so the father-son duo here are the only pair in NBA history to both win multiple NBA titles. So he's just literally been groomed in what is the elite of the elite in basketball. And so we want to pull on that thread to better understand how he's come

to learn and be groomed in understanding what is quote-unquote elite. Now Luke's also had the fortune of being coached and playing with people like Lute Olson, Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, and the list goes on. And in this conversation we talk about the impact people have had on the way he looks at life and how he thinks about improvement. We discuss how relationships impact performance. We talk about the mindset that is required to make it at the professional level and why he believes mindfulness is an important part of that equation. I hope this conversation does service to Luke and is able to capture what makes him special. And I also hope that listening to this and hearing

Luke's insights and understandings about learning and living and growing and being in relationships and being in relationships that bring the best out of others, I hope that those will be translated in your own life as well. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers, Luke Walton. Luke, what's up? Not much, Mike. I'm excited, nervous, honored to be on your podcast. I was telling, I literally send your podcast out to people within this organization. And I was talking to Joey bus downstairs and I told him, he asked what

I was getting ready to do. I said, I'm coming on your podcast. And he's one of the guys that I send some of them to. And I said, I felt guilty because I get so much from your podcast and I listen to them and I take them, but you'd been trying to get me on for a while and I've been ducking and hiding. So it's, you know, it's here we are and I'm paying back my debt for what I feel like I'm taking from you when I listen to to your other podcast. Yeah. You know, I appreciate that because the way that people articulate what they've come to understand has been fun. And I think, you know, one of the reasons you've given me is like, you know, I'm not sure exactly how to articulate these things, which is, so it's hard. This is hard. These are hard conversations. And I know that people listening, when they try to answer the questions that I ask, the things that I'm curious about, they send me notes all the time saying, I don't know how I

would answer it myself. So these are flat out hard, hard conversations, but at least I get good stuff out of them. I'm on the, uh, the, the Rick Welts one right now who I obviously I worked with and I'm halfway through his, it's phenomenal. Yeah. So in advance, thank you. And, um, I'm looking forward to this as well, because you've, one of the things, when I think about your life, you've been around legends. Your dad, Bill Walton, Phil Jackson. I mean, you've just literally been around legends your whole life. So when you think about how fortunate you've been to be around people that are highly skilled, world-class at what they do, how do you think about that part of your life?

Because that's rare. Not many people were groomed and raised the way you were. Yeah. It's interesting because it's, you know, on one hand I, it's normal to me. I mean, it's being around greatness and being around these unique individuals, whether it's my dad or it's, you know, playing with Kobe Bryant or it's growing up and my idol was Larry Bird and then know, playing with Kobe Bryant or it's growing up. And my idol was Larry Bird. And then Larry Bird staying with us in the summer and, you know, taking us out to the basketball court. Like this is all just how I grew up. Jerry Garcia coming to the house. So that part of being around him, I think I'm able to just be myself and and have great relationships and learn from them, I think I'm able to just be myself and, and have great relationships and learn from them because I don't feel, you know, like starstruck at all when I'm around greatness. Now it's,

you know, I never, I never felt like that as a player or, or a person as far as being one of those like unique, great, unbelievable, uh, people in this world. Um, you played in the league for 10 years and you're saying that you didn't feel like you were one of those crazy talents that people were tripping over to. Yeah. I was a role player and I was okay with that. Honestly, I took a lot of pride. i wanted to be the best i could be and for a while in high school and college that was good enough to be as good as anyone else i got to the nba and you know realized that my my ceiling wasn't as high as some of my teammates and i was i accepted that and then i just i embraced myself i threw myself into the idea of still trying to become the best I could become.

But also, look, I don't need to try to go out and score 20 at night. My role is to do this. My role is to be a playmaker, a facilitator. And I'm going to do that to the best of my ability. And I found a lot of joy in that. It fulfilled that inner drive of what I was trying to do as a competitor. And I had a great career, you know, played on championship teams. I have friends that that are going to be lifelong friends throughout this career.

And some of those players were were all time greats, like I said, like Kobe Bryant, you know, played with Shaq for a year, Carl Malone. And some of them were other role players and some didn't play at all. Some were bench players at the very end of the bench. But it was just, it's been an awesome, awesome journey. You know, what you're talking about is you figured out your purpose. But there was a pivot in figuring out that purpose. Because early on on it was about be your best and and that never changed but your role or your contribution to the team or people

that you're around changed so how did you do that how did you go from being a stud at arizona and where were you in the draft like coming into into the NBA? Second round. Early second round. I was the second pick in the second round to the Lakers. Okay. So top 34 talent in the league? Yeah. 32. 32 teams.

Okay. 32. Carry the two. All right. So how did you go from being like one of the top tier to saying, okay, or to recognizing like my role's got to change. My purpose in life now changes. Well, it wasn't easy. And obviously being an athlete, you have an ego and, uh, you to make it this far, you kind of have to have some sort of false belief in,

in how good you are. Cause you need that confidence, uh, to, to make it to this level. But when I got here, I was on a team as a rookie that had Shaq, Kobe, Carl Malone, Gary Payton, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, all these players that I have watched win championships in the NBA and played for years in the NBA. Some of the greatest players ever play in our game were my teammates. So as bad as I wanted to play, I think my rookie year, it kind of started to happen without me even realizing it. I was like, let me find something I can do that,

that gets keeps me getting chances to play. And with that team, it was like, I don't care about scoring and we have scorers everywhere. So every time I get on the game, I'm going to find what keeps me on the court. And what I found was instead of shooting the shot, throw the pass to Shaq, let Shaq get a dunk. Instead of taking the layup, if Kobe's open, throw him the pass, let him get a dunk. And all of a sudden, you know then then Phil Jackson would

trust me to facilitate that offense to keep the ball moving you know to get others going and that was obviously just my rookie year at that point I was just survival mode like whatever it takes to get on the court and prove that I belong in this league let's do and then as my career went on I think uh you know I had I had, you know, relatively really good years for me. And then I thought I could do more and more and more. And then it got to a point when eventually we were fighting every year to make the playoffs. We were making it as like a seven seed. And then we traded for Pau Gasol.

And Pau Gasol is obviously a much better player than me. And we went to three straight finals. A lot of the stuff I was getting to do as far as playmaking was now upset because I wasn't playing I had the realization like all right look at this this is still an absolutely incredible opportunity you're playing with guys you love you playing for a coach you love and you're playing the game you love like let's get back to what can you do to help the team and then some point in that stretch the mind shift went back to, you know, accepting where, where we're at and what we're doing and embracing it. Okay. So that was the guiding, that was the approach. What can I do to help the team? And early on, it was like, what can I do to get on the court? What, and then it translated to what can I do to stay on the court? And then it was,

what can I do to prove some, somewhere in that arc or you had an arc somewhere in that line of thinking, but so that's the bright line. Like what can I do to help? Um, for me, yeah, I love the game of basketball and I love, I've always loved being probably because I grew up with three brothers. Like I love being part of a team and working towards something. And like I said, at times your ego gets in the way of that. But in the purest form of why I started playing this game, the only thing that again and, and made my goal just about, you know, what can I do to help our team? How can I be there for my teammates? Uh, you know, whether it's on or off the court type of thing.

So when you say it, the, the ultimate aim was to win. Can I push on that a little bit?'s do it okay so easy scenarios win the championship you don't play and your role is marginalized and everybody knows that you're going to be traded next year because of a b and c reasons however you get a ring you're part of a winning team would you say that that is rewarding i'm sure the answer is kind of like, I'm sure the answer is not. Yeah, that sounds great. But how do you sort that type of scenario out when, if the ultimate aim is to win? Well, it's, it is rewarding and you have to, you have to be very, you know, secure with who you are and what you're doing. obviously it's you know the which i don't know

if you're referring to you know when we this did happen to me no i didn't did it happen yeah where we won the you know it happened two years later when we won the championship but then i was traded i didn't know that okay but so the first championship we won, I was a much bigger part of the actual playing rotation wise, coming off the bench with a unit of guys that we took pride in what we did. And we, you know, we were a brotherhood coming off the bench together. And then the second year we beat Boston in which my back had gone out early in the year and I didn't play much at all that season. And both were very rewarding. Now, the first one where I was playing more, and that was our first championship,

looking back on was the more rewarding of the two. But as a player and a teammate and a member of a championship team that a lot of sportscasters or fans will try to talk trash about, you know, the, for example, I hear people all the time bring up, well, you know, Adam Morrison won a ring with the Lakers, but he wasn't really part of the team type of argument saying that it doesn't championships don't really matter when you're talking about individual greatness. And it's absolutely, you know, BS to me because when you're part about individual greatness and that's absolutely you know bs to me

because when you're part of the team and you saw what adam did every single day in practice and how he would i mean adam could score 30 on any given day in scrimmages and he would go at lamar and he would he would go at everybody every single day he's busting his tail to make the team better, whether it's the guys that are playing the starters, if somebody's hurt. So everybody contributes to a championship team. So that's where you find the, you know, the satisfaction of, you know, being satisfied with the idea of whether you played or not. You are part of a championship team because at some point in that season, you did something to help that team win a championship, whether it's practice, somebody getting hurt, whatever it is, but you have to be okay with, with, with that, uh, and not listen to the outside noise of, of other people. Yeah. So more of accountability to

your peers, the people inside the building, so to speak, rather than people that are not in the building, but the people watching. Yeah. Okay. How important that brings up the thought, like how important are relationships? And there's a caveat to this because I've heard from the Laker organization before that you, and this was during, I think the Kobe, um, Shaq era that you were part of that that you don't have to get along. You don't have to like each other. And you can still win. And part of the ecosystem that the Seattle Seahawks have is exactly opposite.

At least the effort is to say, how can we have deep relationships so that we can do difficult things together and maintain those – or not just maintain the relationships, but develop the relationships so we can do difficult things together and maintain those or not just maintain the relationships but develop the relationship so we can do hard things so what is your take on relationships i i i put a huge value on relationships i love it it's part of the reason i think i love this job so much like i love getting in there getting to know these young players, trying to help them, like, reach and realize their dreams and seeing it happen. And I want to know how I can help them, you know, not only on the court but off the court. Like, to me, this is such a family environment. Like, I don't want it to strictly be business.

You know, if you're a player of mine and something's happening at home or your cousin or your brother, something's bothering you, come in my office, let's talk about it. Like, you know, my dad from a young age, you know, he used to tell me, now that I'm a coach, he tells me still, he reminds me all the time. He's the greatest coaches slash teachers he's ever had, which is also true for me, taught him way more about life than they did about basketball. And it's 100 percent true. It's, you know, for him, Steve Kerr the last couple of years was so much more about growing as a man off the court than what you take from from the game of basketball.

That they they're they mean more to me. They're special people to me. I stay in contact with them. So when you ask me about relationships, I love that aspect of the game. And I, and I agree that I don't, not everyone needs to get along. They don't need to, I'm sorry. They don't need to be best friends. They don't need to go to movies together outside. I would like that. You know, I think that's a healthy environment, but I, I'm a realist and understand that you got 15 guys together. Some people personalities just are going to clash, but they have to respect each other. They have to respect what each other brings to the table. I'm big on being compassionate towards each other, understanding that everyone has their own issues they're going

through, whether it's money, whether it's, you know, family things, it's the stress of, of not playing well. Like let's, there's a human element to our jobs. Let's, let's make sure we don't forget that we're there to support each other. Don't go to dinner together, but be, be a good teammate. And if you're not, if you're being, if you're an asshole or you're, you're coming in and disrespecting other people, then we're probably going to have to get you out of here at some point, because you're bringing down the entire vibe of the, of the culture we're trying to get going on.

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Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So you said something early on. It didn't miss me, but this is a good time to bring it back up is that being around legends and all the ones that you've mentioned that you were afforded the ability to be yourself. Like you didn't have to play a certain way because that person was famous. They were part of the extended family in some ways,

right? That friends and family that really were a constant variable in your life and then now we're talking about relationships so your relationship with yourself and your relationship with others are really important so can we do this like and i'm going to forget some people and maybe you can add them but when i say the word bill obviously I'm talking about your dad. What comes up? Love, support, madness, chaos, but just an incredible person. I mean, I've just seen him do so much to help other people. And the joy he gets from helping others is one of the, you know, being my dad,

he, him being my dad and seeing the effect he has on other people is just, I guess an awesome feeling. And so he doesn't hold his tongue. Like he, he lets it rip, you know, when he's got a thought, he lets it rip.

And he's, he's known for that. Was it the same way parenting? Like if he had an idea, he, he, whether he was in fit you were in favor or not like or was there more he was much more of a dictator as a parent it was

it was uh family meetings meant you know with like you knew like if you had to be somewhere you tell him you're you're leaving 30 minutes before because he's going to sit you down and tell you 30 minutes of stuff um advice normally but it wasn't really a conversation back and forth it was so that was one of dad's way of parenting coaching teaching is that if you're going to go to the movies or whatever or camp or something he's he would tell you ahead of time yeah this is how i want you to think about it yeah and if you had you know if you had friends in town, like let's say Richard Jefferson was staying with, you know, when we were in college together and we were getting ready to go out or go get dinner or something. You know, whoever was staying at the house, he called them family meetings, had to be in the family meeting. And then he'd sit there and kind of dictate out for about 30 minutes on whatever he had on his mind that day.

Okay. So family meetings were every day or just when prior to an activity prior to an activity. Okay. Yeah. So did you guys eat together? Yeah. Well, we, he'd have dinner, you know, dinner would be seven o'clock if you're home, you're home for it.

Um, if you're not, if you're out doing, we had a lot of, uh, we were, you know, there was a lot of independence in that, in lot of, uh, we were, you know, there was a lot of independence in that, in the household, uh, just cause everyone's schedule was always so busy, including his, he's in and out of town. But when he was home, it would be a, you know, Hey, dinner's at seven o'clock tonight. We start at seven. So if you get there at seven, 10, you can still join, but they're already started. And if you're not, if you don't show up at all, there's no, it's not a big deal it's just you know dinner time is when it is if you're there you're there if you're not you're not did you have a

relationship with uh coach wooden no i mean i knew him we used to my dad would take us to his camps but i was i was young and obviously when i'd see him i'd pay respect to him and say hello, but there wasn't much of a personal relationship with him. I think as a kid, without knowing, learned a lot through Coach Wood. I mean, through my dad, from Coach Wood. I mean, my dad used to send us to school with lunch bags that literally had John Wooden quotes that he would write on the lunch bag. Like the brown bag? The brown bag, yeah.

Do you remember any of them? I mean, my dad had hundreds of them, but it was, you know, be quick but don't hurry. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. And it would be every day. And, you know, sometimes you'd throw a Bob Dylan quote in or whatever. But at the time, that was just more entertaining to us. Like dad's pretty weird, right? Like he's writing this stuff on our lunch bags. But I think with the fact that he just

drilled that in me and my brothers every day, there was probably a pretty big influence of John Wooden in my life. Wow. That's really cool. When somebody gave me the gift of suggesting it was very similar to that and so i just got a little card stock you know and every day i put a little note in my son's uh lunchbox so he doesn't have like a brown bag just a little note you know a little thought of encouragement a little thought of challenge you know and so he's nine he comes in you know they're laying around the house in his bedroom. Some are bent and torn, and some are in the trash can or whatever. So where did your dad get that from?

Was that something he just made up? Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea. He never told us why he was doing it. He just grabbed an apple, a banana, whatever else. A muffin, whatever else he'd fit grab an apple, a banana, whatever else, a muffin, whatever else he'd fit in a brown bag and then write whatever quote he felt like writing that day.

Okay, how about Kobe? When I say that name, what comes up? Competitor. I mean, the most fierce, great competitor I've ever been around. Like to where I never even knew you could be like that, honestly. It was the injuries he could play through, like how he could handle pain. I mean, there was, he'd get injured and doctors would say, you're out four to six weeks.

And he'd say no and go out and play that night. And like, and I've had some of of these like plantar fasciitis for example i've had that i i can't it it is so painful to try to go full speed and cut and change direction when it feels like your foot is ripping off the bone and i was like i was okay i get it this will shut me down tell us tell us better and then he gets it and And I'm like, well, Kobe's out. I mean, he's got to play in a fast shot. I've had that. I know what it feels like.

He's out. And sure enough, that night, he's sitting there warming up. And I'm like, what's – he wants to try to play through it. Sure enough, he plays through it. And not only plays through it, but he's not limping. He's not – like just such a – he can get his mind to a place that was so beyond you know you know even my understanding really that you could live in a place like that every day and I think uh in researching this more and looking back in my own playing days there's there's moments

and there's times that I've probably felt similar to how he lives his competitive life. I have no idea how I got there, but there's times you just don't get tired. Everything's moving in slow motion. The ball feels great going off your fingers. You feel like you can do whatever you want. And those are, you know, games you have once a year for me. And he just lived in that place. It was, you know, it was unbelievable how he would, you know, I remember he'd be the first one in the gym shooting before practice. And, you know, there was one day I get there, and I was getting treatment, I think, so I was in early. And he comes walking in.

And I made a joke something about, you're slacking off, huh? And he looks at me with a grin on his face, and he comes walking in. I was made a joke, something about you're slacking off. And he looks at me with a grin on his face and he's like, yeah, if you call going to the track for an hour and a half and then getting all my weights done before I showed up today, slacking off and yeah, I'm fucking slacking off. And he's dead serious with like fire in his eyes.

And it's like a middle of a week in the middle of the season. And he's just locked in like that all the time. And he wasn't lying. He had literally gone to the – he had a track workout guy. He went to the track at like 5 in the morning, did his sprint work, had gone to the weight room from there with his guy, did a full weight workout, and then was showing up to the practice site around the same time I was. But I was there to get treatment on something,

and he was there to start getting shots up before practice on a random whatever day of the week it was. And it was just such an amazing thing to be a part of and to witness. If I didn't see it every single day for the eight years I was here with him, I don't think I'd even believe that he would, that it was real, how locked in he was on the regular. Will you teach your children those same qualities? That's tough. I literally debate myself.

Yeah. Debate with myself all the time on that because what I want for my children is for them to have the greatest opportunities to feel all the love in the world from me, to know I'm there to help them pretty much. But I feel like with that, they're not going to develop that type of mindset. You know what I mean? Like to have that type of mindset, you have to. It comes from a craziness. Yeah. Like an unsettled razor's edge. That intensity can burn inner and outer and like yeah it's it literally is playing with fire yeah it is and i think even to a way lesser extent like

i think that's why i was able to make it in the nba like i had you know i had three brothers whatever i i was the third of four we grew up in san Diego. It wasn't like I had to make it to the NBA to get out of a bad situation, but I was a very shy kid. I didn't talk to anyone except for my brothers until I was probably like 10 years old. Like, but the one, I felt uncomfortable a lot. Like I wasn't, I couldn't, I wasn't into socializing at all. But when I played basketball, I felt at home. I felt ease.

I felt peace. And it made it so that's all I ever wanted to do. I did it every single day. And I have, as a player, this burning inner drive, especially if we're competing, to literally do anything to win. And I haven't broke down enough into my childhood psychology of what exactly that came from. But there was something in there that was driving me every day, whether it was raining outside or not, to be in that yard playing. But back to the original point, with my own children, I i don't know i don't know the answer

to that i'm hoping that in our friendship and our in our uh growth together here you'll you'll guide me because your kid's nine my my oldest is three so you'll go through this before me right before yeah you can kind of advise me on it because i don't know the answer to that well but that's why i asked the question too because i don't know the answer to that. But that's why I asked the question too, because I don't know either. I've got some real thoughts about how to guide a philosophy as being a dad. But this is the reason I fired up this podcast too, is to be around people that have had really unique experiences in life, particular worldviews and done exceptional things. And to understand how do we deconstruct and better understand what they've done to pass it on

to the next generation, use it for ourselves in the best possible way and then pass it to the next. And I'll tell you what I see. Okay. A couple observations just about kids is that I see my friends and I see coaches that I coach with up at the Seahawks or wherever I am, that they are the most chill on the sidelines during the youth league games.

There's a couple that are knuckleheads, you know, and, and, but that, that's also reflected in the way that they do life. But for the most part, this is the guiding thought. It's really hard to be great in sport. And so you've got to spend a lot of time doing it and you won't spend enough time doing it if you don't love it. So let's create an environment and where the kids love what they do. Well, and let me speak on that because I, as far as your point of like,

which is part of why I love your podcast, it's, you're creating a community where like, let's get all this stuff out here and share and brainstorm, which is how i like teaching anyways like i want my coaching staff we do sessions like this all the time like and then let's pick what we like out of it and see if that works and move on but i get approached by by parents with of you know eight nine year olds all the time like when did you start playing how did your dad teach you i'm telling him he needs to do this and that. And like you're saying, like, they're just so involved in what they're trying to get their

kid to become. And I tell him, I said, listen, like, that's not my experience at all. My dad never said a word. He would come to games and he would sit there in silence. After the game, he'd say, hey, do you want my opinion on what I saw out there? And if I was pissed off and not in the mood, I'd say no. And he'd be like, okay. And then later that night when I calmed down, I'd come back and be like, hey, dad, let me hear it. And he'd tell me his opinion on what I need to work on or what I need to do better. But there was never that push. In fact, it was the opposite.

He would every day, Luke, you don't have to play basketball. Find something you love in life. Whatever your path, music, you love music, follow music. If it's, you know, school or business, go do that. Don't play basketball because you think you have to, because I did. And it was almost annoying because basketball is what i loved it's all i want to do and i say i get it dad thank you i appreciate it but to your point of you have to love it and the only way you know if you love it is if you let the kids do it like let them experience it and and i you know there's times like yes i agree like hey don't let him quit mid-season if he doesn't like it still make him stick the season out so you know there's times like yes i agree like hey don't let him quit mid-season if

he doesn't like it still make him stick the season out so you know he at least gets the life lesson of you stick stick out commitments but don't force don't force kids to do something don't don't try to make you know don't be the overbearing parent that makes it unfun for the kid because once you lose that joy yeah you're not going to make it anyways no it's too it's too hard and it takes too long yeah you know and you got to spend too many hours on a deep relentlessly deep focus nauseatingly deep focus to really reveal potential so go back to this you were hinting earlier about flow state the zone right there's moments in time that you that you found it i'm sure it's more than

moments in time, but Kobe found it on a more regular basis. I'm going to, I want to ask if you found it in coaching, but let's stay with this thing about kids is that what I'm trying to do and tell me what you think about this is create an environment that has that right balance between challenge and support. So supports the net and challenges like you can do more like there's more in you so i ask a lot of questions like what was that like what was it like when you took a shot and it didn't work out what was it like when you were you know you're whatever i'm blanking on kind of the scenarios but like more about the process about taking risk as about as opposed to the outcomes that maybe went their way or maybe didn't go their way.

Yeah. So support and challenge, those two words. Yeah. And that's the fine line of trying to, what I, you know, and then for me also, it's at what age can he, my son's three right now. Like I want to, or sometimes I want to get really upset with him because of. Why aren't you golfing like Tiger? Well, not that

i'm never be like that like if he's not good at something he's i'm not gonna try to get on him about that but you know he if if he misses he loves shooting hoops in the living room in our little toy basket if he misses he'll start throwing his head around and crying already yeah and i'm kind of proud of it a little bit i'm kind of like yes i love that that pisses you off he's got fire at three you know at the same time i want to explain to him like well look either keep missing and getting mad or just keep practicing at it and it's just tough to really know what at least for me what he can comprehend at three uh not a whole lot yeah that's why i kind of just let him throw his his his tantrums for now.

John Bellicata Too funny. All right. So flow state, the most optimal state of human can be in the zone, there are a handful of triggers that you can manipulate to increase the frequency of flow state. And one of them is getting that challenge, right that, that you know like that competitive um this is hard let me step into it another one is really clear goals another one is great awareness of your internal state so there's some levers that we can play with we can talk about later but what what would you do to increase your ability to get into flow state and if you want to answer that question you can also answer what are you manipulating in your culture to try to help your guys get into flow state more often?

Well, you know, one, we have a very young team here. So a big thing I'm trying to, to get put into place that is we're at the very beginning phases of everything we're doing. Uh, and just the, the, you know, the first year here, and I love the path we're on. and just the the you know the first year here and i love the path we're on i love the group of guys we have in the culture that's being built the work habits that are being built but i think an untapped resource and i could be wrong but i believe in in professional sports i'll just speak on the nba because that's what i know, is the mental training of the game. I mean, we train our athletes in the weight room, the nutrition, what they eat, their skill work, their conditioning, like the million dollar prize horses that they are. I mean, it's the best of the best, everything we can offer.

And there's such a huge part of the game that's mental. And I just feel like it's an untapped resource on where we can make huge strides, not only in our in our industry, but more importantly for us right now in the near future, our team and our young players. So I'm trying to introduce a mental training session like as we go and whether that's going to just be, uh, you know, I'm on the guys about, I took the whole team to yoga. You know,

they thought we were going to practice, loaded them on a bus and we went to, to Soho yoga. And, uh, that was a little cheap promo for my guy, uh, Richard Jefferson who owns Soho yoga.

But, uh, you know, so I'll, I'll stay on them about doing yoga. I've been talking this off season, uh, to headspace, who, you know, so I'll stay on them about doing yoga. I've been talking this offseason to Headspace, who, you know, we talked about before. And they're going to come in. They're going to come in and training camp of this upcoming season.

We're going to start doing meditation sessions like Phil Jackson used to do for us. Awesome. And it's, you know, what I'm just trying to get to for now is just whether it's for a couple minutes a day, every other day, there's just at some point, you know, they're taking quiet time to themselves and then letting their brains slow down and being aware of it to where you can use that skill in the game of basketball to get through a turnover or to be able to knock down free throws or whatever it is. To be able to start to have the awareness of the control of your brain is where the beginning steps of that. But I think it's going to be a big part of our future and our culture here from an individual and a team standpoint. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new

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And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I wanna build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more.

It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. You know, the trend has been from great coaches, you know, they did everything. 40, 50 years ago, they did everything. They coached mind, they coached body, they coached technique, they coached, they did

everything. Then the progressive ones said, you know what, let's bring in some guys to make our guys faster and so they brought in some strength and conditioning coaches then they realized they need to bring in some atcs and medical because the guys were bigger faster stronger playing harder in the fourth quarters and but they're getting banged up a little bit because they're bigger faster stronger then they started getting nutrition right and now here we are we're in the frontier of okay, so now the progressive coaches like yourself are saying the mind is radically important to success. It's the thing that governs the whole damn system. And the way that I like to think about it is that the mind governs – the mind is the software that runs the hardware, which is the brain and the body.

And if you've got patchy software, the hardware doesn't work very well. You know, the processor speed doesn't work as well. So we can train it. It's really clear. And I love hearing that from you because that's, we're right on the front edge of probably the entire league at some point. Maybe, I don't know. I'll ask you like, what number of years do you think that in the future that every team will have a mindset training program? But we're right here right now. That's why Coach Carroll has been it's so much fun to been to work with him because he's right on the frontier of it as well. And you know what I would suggest?

Not to make it mandatory. Yeah. Right. Like it's part of the culture. It's part of the DNA. There's specific ways that we think about it. If you want more, here's how we can do it. But not make it mandatory because guys just shut down. Yeah. ways that we think about it if you want more here's how we can do it but not make it mandatory because guys just shut down yeah and i obviously i'll continue to lean on you for advice no but you've been great and you know i plan with our players we're gonna bring in somebody to lead a

meditation but like you said they're gonna lead that meditation and then there's gonna be an app for them to use if they're interested in it that's's great. And we're going to kind of leave it open-ended from there. But I just feel like we have to at least provide the initial introduction to some different techniques of mental training. That's so good. So in X number of years, how long do you think it will take to have 75% of the teams in the NBA? I would hope that within 10 years, most teams are doing it. I know Dallas, the Mavericks have a full-time guy that travels with them and works with their players. We hired one in Golden State when I was up there.

He ended up signing with the Pittsburgh Pirates full-time. He was part-time with us in Golden State when I was up there. He ended up signing with the Pittsburgh Pirates full-time. He was part-time with us in Golden State. We took a full-time job. So there are teams that are doing it. I think how quickly it happens normally in our sport and probably most sports, it's a copycat league. It wants their success. Yeah, so if the Warriors were public about the fact they've had someone

and he's been great, then a lot of teams would start jumping on it. So it probably depends on who's using them and how much success they have. But I would imagine where this game is going and how big it's growing that teams are going to be looking for every advantage they can to have success. And like I said, I think that's an area where you can gain a big advantage. Because every team is out there doing now is doing the nutrition and the strength coaches and the running coaches and the skill coaches. So the fact that you can train the mind and not every team is out there doing it, you can gain a nice advantage in that field, I think. Yeah, there's a short little window where it's going to be a nice advantage in that, uh, in that field, I think. Yeah.

There's a short little window where it's going to be a significant advantage. Okay, cool. So what is the most important mindset skill or mental skill for you? Is it calm? Is it focus? Is it like deep focus? Is it confidence? Is it imagery?

Is it pre-performance routines? Is it awareness? Like where, how do you think about, is it a particular mindset, knowing how to get there? Yeah, I think for me right now, it's awareness. It begins there. Without it, we're stuck in the water. Yeah, and it's trying to rebuild this great Laker team and organization, um, and being able to see all the different things that where we're trying to go and where we're trying to stay away from and, and at the same

time, be open-minded as far as what I need to continue to work on and improve. Uh, I just feel like awareness for me personally at this moment in time is the most important thing for me. Obviously, if you're talking about individual players, that can change feel for where they're at, you know, the players that they're working with so that I can have this overall awareness of what's happening if we're moving in the right direction and then being honest about it. You know, don't, don't have too much ego or pride to admit if you're doing something wrong, or, uh, if you need to get, if you, if I need to get better at something, uh, being open-minded enough to, to accept that and then do something about it. If you had the chance to sit down with someone on the path of mastery and ask them one or two questions, one question seems like it's a little harder to do, but you you know what question would you ask them um that's tough like i mean it's yeah we can make it easier by saying like if they had three questions no i mean i think

why i i think honestly why is to me the most would be what I want to know from each person, because like we've talked about in this conversation, getting to mastery is a long, painful process that I mean, it requires so much sacrifice from other aspects of your life. I mean, to, to truly become a master or even close to it, you need to, it's sacrificing time with your family. It's sacrificing, uh, vacations. It's sacrificing going out to the bars on a Saturday night. It's you're, you're, you're putting everything into, into this path. And I love it. I think it's awesome. Like that people that are doing it excite me. And I, it's pushing the, you know, the limits of where you can go as a human or where you can go in a certain area, uh, is, is honestly, it's just exciting to me. And, but I, I, I want to sit there and ask people why, like, what, what is it? Why are you making this decision, uh, to go for it? You've been around a lot of great performers, masters of

crafting, you know, multiple generations. How do you answer, if you could sum it all up, what is the why for most of them? Or is it so individually specific that each one has a very unique drive? I think that they, they have a unique drive about them probably. Um, I think I'd have to go back in time and get a better understanding now that I'm older. When I was around Larry Bird as a child, I couldn't put it together

what drove him to be so great. Kobe Bryant, I can tell you, he wanted to be the greatest of all time. Now, why he wanted to, I don't know. I mean, there has to be something in there deep. Maybe he won't even share it with me. Honestly, I mean, to do the things that he used to do, as far as the way he worked and prepared and trained himself,

there was a fire burning from something. And I don't know what the why was. That's why I think it would be so interesting to really, and maybe some of these people don't even know themselves. I don't know. Maybe they would have to sit down and do some work and figure out where it all came from. But I think those individual stories of why would end up being really entertaining. I love that because that's part of this conversation. Like why? Why does

the best in the world work so hard and sacrifice so much? And I love how the sensitivity, like the inside understanding that I don't know if they tell me. And that's the truth. I'm going to ask you why. I think I have a sense of it. But there's an effect. It's just observing something. The nature of the observation makes the thing change.

And so just having a microphone on changes the nature of maybe how to respond to the question. But when you talk about why, was it for dad's approval? Was it for the love of the game? Was it because the place you felt most alive was right on the edge where you didn't know if it was going to work out or not? And you became addicted to that? For me, it's all of those. For me, it's all of those. Dad's approval is involved in it. I love what it feels like to be in a high risk scenario. And what a great way to organize life, to do something that feels really intriguing. So it's a mix of things. So for you, where is that why for you? I probably need to lock myself in a room for a weekend with a pad of paper.

But I think you've touched on a lot of them. I'm sure there was as a kid with, like I've said, three brothers and a dad that was always on the road and traveling. Like there was a big part of it looking back now that was probably just wanting my father's approval. And he knew it, too, because he kept saying to you, you don't have to do this for me. You don't have to. So he could see. Yeah. And he, so, you know, that's, that's probably a huge part of it.

I didn't know that at the time. And I was at some point, I mean, I, I love the game of basketball. There's nothing. And I'm, I'm like you too. I like, I like having that feeling of you're alive and you're on the edge a little bit. And now, as long as it's not, you, you'll take it to another extreme. I like having that feeling of you're alive and you're on the edge a little bit. Now, as long as it's not, you'll take it to another extreme. You'll go skydiving and things like that.

I want nothing to do with that. But if it's competition and it's us against you. In many ways, it serves the same focus or same thing. As long as I don't have a chance of dying at the end. That's something special when that happens. One day I'd hope to get there. But yeah, there's probably a lot of reasons that go into the why. Okay, how about this? It all comes down to, how do to finish that thought now is it all comes down to balance.

I was so much of my life. I've been so driven just by basketball, just basketball, basketball, basketball, my happiness. by basketball, just basketball, basketball, basketball. My happiness, my sadness was all attached to whether I felt I had success or not in basketball. Even if other people felt I, I was having success, I could be miserable. My family knew not to talk to me. I'd lock myself

in rooms after games. It wasn't healthy. Now, it probably helped me get to where I needed to get to. But as I've gotten older and now that I have kids and I've a much better understanding now too, I can perform at a much higher level when I have balance in my life. And I'm aware of the fact that I want to give everything I have to what I'm doing, but not be consumed by it. So what I mean by that, I'm, I'm giving you everything I have from coaching or playing. If we're playing pickup or whatever, I'm giving you everything I have, but when that's done, if I lose, hey, that's what happens.

You know, sometimes you can't control that outcome. You do what you can and you gave it your all. Don't let it consume your life. Don't let it take you to a dark place. And the way I'm starting to learn to get there is to appreciate the balance of life and valuing other things outside of just basketball. Seems super healthy. And there's, there's like, for obvious reasons, if you're not where your feet are, you get in trouble. Right? So that thought be where your feet are. Sport is a fantastic working laboratory for when you take off your gym shoes and you get

into your whatever shoes, whether it's flip-flops or gym shoes and you get into your whatever shoes whether it's flip-flops or whatever and you get into the other shoes that you wear whether it could be barefoot like be there yeah and i struggled with that for a long time and i didn't know i struggled i mean i i knew it i just didn't know it it wasn't you didn't know how to let the stuff you brought the stuff that didn't go well into the bedroom or the boardroom or the whatever. But the difference was I was aware of that, but I thought it was what was best for me because I could use gotten to or I am getting to now because I can let that go and still take a step back, see the big picture, evaluate what I need to do, do something better and still be without just being consumed in the dark. I don't know if I'm saying that. No, totally got it.

Yeah. It's like more archaic to be fueled by anger than to be fueled by present moment experience and enlightenment and whatever. And the ceiling of the barbaric mode of just anger and I'm going to keep busting my ass in this because this is how I get better. The ceiling is much lower than if you, you know, you take the other path. Okay. So how about this thought? When you said balance, I was like, Oh boy. Cause like, I think it's a noble thought, but I don't know anyone that has it. I know people that are like really good at being here, right here, right now, but I don't know anyone that has it. So I was, I think you're taking it back to like balance in the present moment as opposed to 20, 20 hours a week here, 20 hours a week there. No, no, no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Present moment. I'm sorry. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. No, it's good. Pressure comes from? Pressure comes from within.

You know, it's – pressure is not real in a sense you know it's if i'm shooting a free throw at the end of the game and there's 20 000 fans screaming at me and there's national tv and millions of people watching across the world my hands get sweaty thinking about that right now but in reality of it it's the same free throw I shot a million times in my career. It's just I'm letting outside factors influence the way my brain is processing this free throw. And that, you know, that means that looking at it like that, I have complete control of pressure situations. It's how much do I want to allow those outside factors to make this more challenging for me? And it's that to me, that's easier said than done, obviously. But it is exciting. And it's exciting knowing that because that also means that I have control

of that pressure. And I can make that a small, as long as control of that pressure and I can make that a small as long as I work on it I can make you know I can make the pressure pretty much go away and just be able to be focused in what I'm doing for my job or my task how about this when I'm at my best, I am, I'm having fun, honestly. I'm thinking about it, and when I feel like, and today, when I'm, and it's not the fun, like, hey, joking around, you know, laughing at whatever. It's an intense fun. But it's a sense of joy from within that's just, I'm kind of locked into the moment. And I'm watching it and I'm loving the battle that's going on and the matchups that are happening.

And the mini chess game that's going on. You know, what are they doing substitution wise? Is it should we go small and try to match and and take it, you know, take advantage of what they're they're trying to do? And there's just there's just a sense of. Of joy inside when I'm when I'm at my best and I'm, and I'm competing at that, that highest level. When you think about a word or phrase that cuts to the center of who you are, what is that word? um I'm not sure what the word I think who I am most at least

what it it seems like I love people so I don't know how to tell I see the good in everybody and I've had people tell me that's not a quality to have because I let people that may not be the best influences on me into my life. And I trust them. But I just I've always from the time I was a kid, I've always just seen the good in people. And I love people. And, you know, I try to bring that type of environment into, you know, into my job now and coaching. And I want I want to bring out the best in the players that we have. So I don't know what the word would be to this, you know, describe all that, but I think that who I am as a person I just I feel like the world can be

a really hard place and I've been so blessed in my life that I want to at least try my part to help others and to make it for them at least, people I'm dealing with on a daily basis a better

easier place It's beautiful make it a, you know, for them, at least people I'm dealing with on a daily basis, a better, easier place. It's beautiful. I feel like we could end there because like that is at the center of what you represent and how you show up in relationships. Like you, you see the good in people and want to amplify that. Uh, that being said, just a couple more questions here is, do you have a philosophy that's guiding your life? Is what you just said your philosophy or would you say my philosophy is? No, I'm still building it, honestly. I don't know. I'm in, you know, in your words, I'm trying to be on my path, my road to mastery uh and that's not just a basketball but that's of being a father and a

husband and and everything else in my life just becoming the best me and uh you know i i don't have a set philosophy but it's you know it's what it's all the little things of what we've already talked about it's being aware we're like what's happening every day is is my wife upset with me and am i just letting that be okay or do i get to the bottom of that and try to change or or or fix something uh when i'm home am i being as present as i can for for the kids type of thing so uh you know i'm i'm working on my philosophy my philosophy. It's a work in progress. I love it. Are there a couple words that capture the culture that you're creating for the Lakers?

Joy, for sure. I want a competition, like the competitive where you come in here and we learn. Like, you know, we're family and we got each other's backs, but we are, we are here to push each other and to get each other better. Like that it's just talking about that excites me. Uh, that's why when every morning, when I pull in this gym, I can't wait to see our guys, uh, because I'm going to, I'm going to watch them and help guide them to, to go at each other that day. Compassion, we talked about earlier, being there for each other,

whether you like your teammate or not, you're going to be there for them. We as coaches and teammates to teammates are going to understand and be compassionate about the idea of look, family, stress, pressures, financial, everything. We're, we're all humans and we have life happening to us. So even though, yeah, everyone just sees us as millionaire professional athletes, not in an, not in our culture, in our culture, we see each other as human beings that are dealing with life. And I think if, you know, we get like that, you know, that's part of the core culture that we want here.

You know, there's this thought that guides me for why we work so hard. And I think there's an authentic, genuine self inside of each one of us that gets clouded and confused the older we get, and the more messages that are floating around our worlds about how we're supposed to be and look and think and sound. But there's an authentic, genuine self. And you've done such a rich job of articulating exactly who you want to be and how you want to design your life so that you can be that authentic self. Luke, it feels to me like the world needs exactly what you stand for right now. Well, I appreciate that. It's what I'm trying to stand for. Like,

I'm not going to sit here and tell you this is who I am. This is what I'm trying to stand for. And I can, and I, I, I have, like, I, I try to be as honest as I can with you with, even if I'm uncomfortable doing something because to me am I like it's not fair to ask my players to do to become uncomfortable you have to become uncomfortable to really push yourself and to become better whether it's basketball or off the court so as much as I hate I don't I shouldn't hate, but like doing a podcast or sitting here and talking about myself, I don't find that very comfortable. I want to do it. I'm willing to do it because I know that's, one, how I grow as a person, as a coach. And, two, that's what I'm asking my players to do.

So I need to be willing to do that, too. And I appreciate what you said, the compliment you gave me. And that is on my path to Mike Gervais mastery. That's where I hope to be when it's all said and done. Brilliant. Luke, it's a joy to know you and what you're doing is meaningful. I can't imagine how fortunate the people that you're coaching and the environment that you're doing is meaningful. I can't imagine how fortunate the people that you're coaching and the environment that you're creating, how fortunate they are and how lucky they are. One day they're going to look back and be like, that was great. That was a great time in my life. Cause I know you get after it with them. You challenge them and you love them on the same.

Yeah. And I hope they do feel that way. Cause there's moments of my career. I look back certain years and that's how I look back and it it warms my heart just right now bringing you know thinking about those times and how special they were and I want to provide the same thing for for younger players that are having the same dream opportunities that I have are you reading anything right now I got about three books in my bag and none of them have been opened yet so is there a book when you think about like the books that influence and shaped you is there a book that continually comes up man search for meaning is one of them for me it's just a legendary which one is it man search

for meaning man search for meaning Victor Frank No, but I'll add that on to my list of books that I want to read. I mean, I've never been a big reader, but it's another skill I'm trying to work on. So I'll add that to my list of books I want to get accomplished. I know. I've got a stack in my room of books I want to get to. Okay, Luke, thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

And so how can folks follow what you're doing? Obviously through the Lakers, but do you have any other ways that people can? No, I don't. Social media. I think social media is great for some things. I also think a big part of being present is not to be on social media and to just be in the moment. In the meantime, I have no Facebook, Instagram, social media accounts. We'll see how long I can hold out.

You know what's cool? You're probably one of the youngest, if not the youngest coach in the NBA. Yeah. Right? And this is the modern era of social media. And you're like, nah, there's not a place for it for me. Well, yeah, there is a place for it. And I respect a lot of what you can do with it.

Yeah. I mean, sometimes I'll look at my wife's phone and see what some of our friends have been doing on Instagram or whatever. But I just think as a culture and as a community, we're losing so much of our human interaction, our conversations to just relying on, oh, well, yeah, I know what Chad's doing because I've been following him on Instagram and I see what his kids are doing, but I don't ever talk to Chad anymore. And it's, I, I, I don't believe in that.

I love the human interaction in life. And, uh, and I just think it's healthy for people and the whole, just text message to everybody instead of talking. So I'm just, I'm trying to, I'm trying to just stick to, to what I think is, is a healthier environment. That's what's up. So for this podcast, it doesn't work without some social. You do you. Yeah. So we're on it right now. So Instagram is at finding mastery, but our website is finding mastery.net. If you're new to this conversation, uh, we're also going to take this conversation, Luke, and, um, splice up your

pearls of wisdom and put it on a second podcast called minutes on mastery. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's these pearls of wisdom from bright minds like yourself where it's under three minutes and just gems. And so it's like almost like a snackable bite size piece of wisdom. It goes back to why we need mental training. It's literally all the attention span you have now, because instead of reading articles, everyone just looks at quick little, you know, bits of information and attention span. Yeah. And it's so you're, I get it. You, I know you got to get the information out there, but you're not helping our cause.

I know. I can't tell you how many people early on about this long-form podcast, like a deep conversation. They said, can you get it down in 20 minutes? I'm like, no. Well, yeah. How can I? That's kind of my point. That's kind of why I'm off social media even though I – listen, there's so much good about it.

There's this sharing of information. It's beautiful and incredible. I just think there's something to be said for being able to focus for longer than little bits of time. People aren't even watching sports anymore as much, and I think one of the theories is they just have highlights popping up on their phone all day so they don't feel like they have to watch the whole game, which is crazy to me because the beauty of the game is the three drives leading up to this last drive and how the momentum has gone back and forth up to the final drive. I don't want to just see how they scored a touchdown to win the game. I want to see the buildup of that. But a lot of people, they can't sit there and just they need their phones out. But back to your – put that on one of the three minutes of wisdom.

It just made it for sure. All right, Luke. Let's get on with it. And thank you again. Thank you, Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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