Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Major MJ Hegar on Escaping Death, Remaining Calm, and Trusting Self

Starting point is 00:00:00 Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

Starting point is 00:00:21 It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

Starting point is 00:00:39 to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

Starting point is 00:00:58 stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. When we landed the second time, they had repositioned a heavy belt fed machine gun, which is not small.

Starting point is 00:01:18 That is like, you know, well, belt fed should speak for itself and started just ripping us to shreds, starting from the tail and walking up toward the nose very slowly, thank God, because it's hard to maneuver. It's a heavy piece of machinery. So we got our patients on board. We took off and immediately realized we wouldn't make it far. If you're new to this podcast, welcome. If you're returning, welcome back. I'm Michael Gervais. By

Starting point is 00:01:53 trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist where I spend most of my time creating working laboratories to better understand how people use their minds to pursue their potential, especially in hostile and rugged environments. And what is a working laboratory? It's the projects that I'm fortunate enough to be part of with world-leading and world-class athletes and performers to learn from them, but also to offer assistance to be able to support and challenge them to be able to train their minds. So in these conversations, in the podcast conversations, what we're working to do is to extend those working laboratories and to share that with you. And we're working to understand the psychological framework of these world-class thinkers and doers. And we want to

Starting point is 00:02:37 understand what they're searching for, where their drive comes from, their worldview, if you will, and how they explain events. And in this podcast, you're going to love this part of it. We want to understand how they train their mind, how they harness emotions, how they adjust when events don't go according to plan, because it's easy to feel good when everything's working well. And we really want to dig to get under the surface to get to the tactics of how they train their mind to be able to be better at their craft. And some of the folks that we're going to talk to or that we have spoken to, they're so good at what they do that they shift the way their world works. And sometimes that ends up shifting the way we understand how the world works.

Starting point is 00:03:16 Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in.

Starting point is 00:03:50 It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert,

Starting point is 00:04:36 try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For's LinkedIn.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly,

Starting point is 00:05:03 I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day.

Starting point is 00:05:29 One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar.

Starting point is 00:05:43 It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters.

Starting point is 00:06:12 And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D,

Starting point is 00:06:38 protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Okay, now for this conversation, it's phenomenal. It's with major MJ Hagar. So MJ, one of foreign policy magazines, 100 leading global thinkers in 2013, and one of Newsweek's 125 women of impact in 2012. That's significant right off the bat. So let's pay attention just on those two accolades those are some significant markers of her impact in the world now she served three tours in afghanistan flying combat search and rescue as well as medevac missions so she's a pilot and she's a skilled pilot on july 29 2009 she was shot down on a medevac mission and sustained wounds resulting in her being awarded the Purple Heart.

Starting point is 00:07:29 So she's been right in the center of chaos. She's been awarded the insights of knowing what it takes to be able to thrive in that type of environment. And her actions on that mission saved lives, both her crew and patients. And it ended up earning her the Distinguished Flying Cross with Valor device. And that makes MJ the sixth woman in history to receive the DFC. And the first was Amelia Earhart. So that tells you the rare air that she's in, literally. Okay. So on her third tour to Afghanistan, MJ contributed a lot of her success to the characteristics that were born out of the adversity she faced in her life. We get into that in this conversation.

Starting point is 00:08:13 And if you have faced down some challenges early in your life and are still working to find freedom from them, I think you'll enjoy her framework. It's significant. The heart of this conversation is centered around trust, trust of self and trust of others. And when a crisis arises, the key question is, can you trust yourself to make the right decisions, to be able to think clearly, to be able to access your craft and to be able to pivot, to be able to perform eloquently in rugged and hostile environments? And we all have rugged and hostile environments. They don't just involve combat, right? Like every day we have opportunities to get right to our own

Starting point is 00:08:51 edge where we're uncomfortable, where our heart thumps just a little bit, when we're not sure if we can do the thing that we set out to do. And, you know, all of those things show up on a regular basis for us. So this isn't just reserved for military operators. Each one of us have moments where we're tested every day, sometimes a lot of moments, but sometimes few. So there's a model that she's worked from, which is wind your watch. And it's a fun little applied tool that she shares in this conversation. We talk about the importance of having cohesive teams in the military and why outdated policies on integrating women had a significant impact on that cohesiveness. So in her experience in 2012, she filed a lawsuit against the Secretary of Defense, asserting that the combat exclusion policy was unconstitutional. And in 2013, the Secretary of Defense repealed the policy immediately. How rad is that? I mean, talk about knowing what you stand for and having conviction and going all the way for it. Okay. She also talks about what it's like to live with PTSD and how to manage it.

Starting point is 00:10:12 We touch on attribution theory. And if you're not familiar with that, it's a really important model to understand, a theory to understand. It's the way people explain events in their lives. So we get into that. And, you know, so last kind of thought here is there are so many gems, there are so many pearls and so many insights. Long form is the best Minutes on Mastery, where it's three minutes or less, where you can hear all of the pearls of wisdom from some of the brightest minds and best thinkers and doers in the world. So if you haven't downloaded Minutes on Mastery, you can do that as well on iTunes and other players.

Starting point is 00:10:58 Okay, now, last part here. Listening to MJ and all of the other podcasts is great, but just listening, it's not enough. It's just, it's not going to work enough and fast enough. It's good. Don't get me wrong. It's good. It's really good. But see if you can pick one way that she's conditioned her mind or one way that she thinks

Starting point is 00:11:20 that's helped her grow, rapidly grow, and begin to train that in your own life. And maybe make a commitment for 30 days, write and begin to train that in your own life. And maybe make a commitment for 30 days, write it down, put it in your calendar, whatever it is. And the doing, the mindset training and the doing is significant. It's really important. So I just want to challenge you and remind you that that part is really important. Just passively listening is just not enough. And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with MJ. MJ, how are you? I'm good, Michael. How are you? I'm doing fantastic. And this conversation feels like a treat for me because we've had warriors in the past that

Starting point is 00:11:56 have been part of the sharing and part of a learning platform. But I'm really wanting to learn what you've come to understand by being in the amphitheater and being in dangerous and high stakes environments about how the mind works and how your mind works, how people work in those states. So thank you in advance for spending the time to unpack and to try to get into the psychology of war from your perspective. Sure. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. And when we say the word warrior, oftentimes that has a very male connotation to it. And do you have a reaction to the word warrior and the gender tone to it? You know, I never considered myself a female warrior. I did consider myself a warrior, you know, but I can't help but identify with other female

Starting point is 00:12:41 warriors from history that a lot of people, they think of, you know, like Joan of Arc, but I call back people like Queen Boudicca, who, you know, rebelled against the Roman Empire expansion and whose husband was murdered and daughters were raped and brutalized, and she led a revolt against them. And I just think about women like that, that, you know, I had a question asked recently in an interview because I was nursing my child during the interview. And the reporter asked, you know, how do you feel like your warrior instinct kind of clashes with your nurturing mother side? And it really got me thinking a little bit about the word warrior and how I truly believe that those two things are very similar and they come from the same place. And a lot of times I feel like I am being a warrior when I'm standing

Starting point is 00:13:30 up for my kids or advocating for them or protecting them or something like that. Yeah. So it comes from a noble place from you, the duty to protect or the interest to protect. Is that more of what your orientation on the craft, the martial art of war is for you? Absolutely. I guess I, you know, I lived in Japan for two years. So when I hear the word warrior, I associate it more with almost like a samurai culture, which is, you know, they were artists and didn't feel like when they weren't at war, like they had to be proving themselves to each other. They were a community and, you know, believed in the fragility and the beauty of life.

Starting point is 00:14:11 So I don't think warrior has to mean, you know, eating glass all the time. I love it. Okay. Yeah, good. So thank you for tackling. I think that that's a relatively difficult conversation or yeah, I guess conversation because it's so loaded. Both words are just really loaded. So yeah, thanks for diving into that. That being said, how does somebody become one of Newsweek's 125 women of impact? Like how does that happen? don't think that I deserve to be on that list. I'm happy to represent the, I think that women

Starting point is 00:14:47 in the military belong on that list. And they list my name with my co-plaintiffs from the lawsuit as being representative of women in the military. So I'm happy to represent them. It's very humbling to see your name alongside, you know, because I was also, we were listed as the, you know, one of foreign policy's leading global thinkers. And we were on that list with people like Angela Merkel and John Kerry and Malala Yousafzai and the Pope. And it blows me away. And it's certainly something I absolutely can't wrap my head around unless I think of it as I'm just a placeholder and representing all of the women in the military. Okay, so that's super humble. But you know, like at the same time,

Starting point is 00:15:32 you were selected for a reason. Not because you're one of many extraordinary people, but you yourself, you've done extraordinary things, you've experienced extraordinary things, you've dedicated your life efforts to serving the country. I love the humility. And I can't tell you how many people on this podcast start with a humble approach. And it's phenomenal. Either they have such a high EQ. I'm always trying to suss out like, is this high EQ?

Starting point is 00:15:56 And you know that it's unbecoming to be arrogant. And you really want to say, I am special. Damn it. I am something amazing. And let me tell you why. Or is it like true, humble, almost like an embarrassment of an accolade? And I feel like you definitely fit the second one. And I don't want to say that you're embarrassed by it, but like-

Starting point is 00:16:14 No, it is embarrassing. It's embarrassing to talk about medals and all that kind of stuff. And I try very hard to stop qualifying my statements and stop knocking myself down. And, you know, I, I try very hard to stop qualifying my statements and stop knocking myself down. And, you know, I wrote a book and my, my, uh, PR people, I was like a PR nightmare. They just wanted me to toot my own horn. And I'm just, yeah, I'm not the person who you want to be left in charge of promoting yourself. Okay. So if we can honor that, but at the same time, if I can, um, if I can pull from I can pull from you some of those extraordinary things. Okay, so we can get a pass for arrogance or whatever. Where did the title of your book come from? So I thought that it was interesting. I'm also kind of a student of behavior. I'm a

Starting point is 00:16:57 sociologist, not so much a psychologist. That's part of the reason that I like to study world religions. And I just like to study cultures and demographics and the way that people interact with each other. And it was always so interesting to me, from an academic perspective, how we were letting organizations like the military get away with making decisions on who would even be qualified to apply for jobs based on stereotypes. And, you know, as you were aware, probably in the military before our charge to open the jobs for women in the military, women couldn't even apply for certain jobs, let alone the women who could meet the high standards, the high physical standards or whatever. So I started looking into why and a lot of people like to point to well, stereotypically, women don't have the upper body strength to blah,

Starting point is 00:17:44 blah, blah, blah, blah, even though there were women who could do it. So it got me thinking about what types of things are women good at stereotypically. Stereotypically, women make better marksmen. Stereotypically, women make better fighter pilots because of the way that we handle Gs. It's a muscle structure thing. So the heavier upper body strength as it relates to your lower body strength or your core muscles, the harder it is for you to handle Gs. So women with their hip structure and legs and abdomens and childbearing kind of muscles, it makes it easier for us to handle Gs. So we don't make decisions about jobs based on those stereotypes. I think the obvious answer is that it's not necessarily based on stereotypes. It's based on the culture surrounding phrase back, this was, I don't know, 15

Starting point is 00:18:49 years ago, I paused and was like, well, wait a minute, was that an insult? And he explained to me that it was a compliment that shooting like a girl was a good thing because psychologically and physiologically, we're more predisposed to being better marksmen. I'm sure I'm supposed to know that from like an Olympic, you know, sport perspective, but I've never worked with marksmen. I've heard the phrase, but I don't understand the physiology. Is it a better attunement to breathing? I'm not a student of it, but it's been explained to me that it is absolutely respiration. It's also center of gravity. It's also something to do with hand-eye coordination, multitasking ability, because women stereotypically are better able to multitask and do multiple complex fine motor skill things at once. But there's a psychological aspect too,

Starting point is 00:19:35 that may be more prevalent in the military than it is in the civilian marksmanship sector, where men step up in general, and I hate speaking in generalities, but in general, men step up to the plate, so to speak, to shoot and they are proving something to each other, will rib each other if they don't do well, feel like it's something that they should be able to do well to be a man. It's like a masculine prove yourself kind of thing. And women step up with all the physiological benefits. We also don't generally tend to be judging ourselves against each other. We judge ourselves against our last performance. So we try to outperform ourselves from our last one. We don't have a lot of pressure on us that we have to shoot to be considered good at being a woman, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:22 that type of thing. So there's, there's a lot of aspects to it. Marksmanship is a very fine-tuned skill that is very psychological. I love that you're teasing out that social comparison gets in the way of performance. The way you just described it was so clean. And so I appreciate that for sure. Thanks. What are the chapters? If you could describe the chapters of your life, like in going way back to childhood, how would you title that chapter or chapters all the way up into now? Oh, that's how long do we have?

Starting point is 00:20:55 I want to understand how you've done such exceptional things. So however long it takes. Knowing that that would be kind of sort of the tenor of where these questions would go, I've put a lot of thought into this. And I think that there's a lot to be said for the characteristics that are born out of adversity. So I haven't had the easiest life. I would say, you know, I've also been very blessed in other aspects. Early childhood, I was put in charge of my family at a very young age, probably around seven, because my biological father was incredibly physically, emotionally, mentally abusive to my mother and my sister and I. And when my mother got my sister and I out of that situation, my sister was a preteen. So she instantly rebelled and I was kind of left to sort of keep us together.

Starting point is 00:21:47 And my mom, who had also been in an abusive family life, had never known not being abused and had never known not having someone in charge. And given that she had a little tyrant natural born leader, it was a difficult child to raise. She kind of just seeded the leadership reins to me at a very young age. So that was hard. As much as little kids, and I apply this to parenting my little kids now, as much as little kids look like they want to be in charge, what they're really doing is testing because they want to make sure someone's in charge. You can kind of see it, a physical transformation in kids that are pushing back and trying to be in charge that when they realize, you know, they get disciplined or something like that, and they realize they're not in charge, they may react to that, but their, their shoulders also relax. And,

Starting point is 00:22:32 and you can just see kind of a relaxed sensation that, okay, I'm not in charge of the cave. I don't have to go out and find the food or, you know, so early childhood was, was kind of like that for me. And how long did that chapter last until i was about 10 okay i think and that's when my stepdad came into the picture and although he was very sort of quietly assertive he he was incredible he wasn't an in-your-face kind of leader but he provided leadership to our family, much needed leadership. And so I almost just was appreciative that he was on the scene, you know, but I was very distrusting because of the experience that I had had with men previously, both my biological father and my mom had a live in

Starting point is 00:23:17 boyfriend who attempted to molest my sister and I. And then when he was shown the door, he started stalking me. I was a cheerleader and he became a referee so that he could travel with us. And I don't know, it was really weird. What age was this? That continued after my stepdad came on. So I would say somewhere between like eight and nine is when he lived with us, but he stalked me all through the beginning of high school. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Okay. So then what is somebody who's gone through that? Like, what are the skills that you learned early? What are those? Are you familiar with post-traumatic growth as a concept? No, but it sounds like something I should be familiar with.

Starting point is 00:23:59 Yeah. So I'm sure you're familiar with post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD. And so the not as well understood or even talked about concept or theory is post-traumatic growth, which is that you can go through some heavy stuff, but come out of it stronger. And that's the basis of resiliency, right? So did you say that's me? One of the things I have been absolutely fascinated about, and if I had the bandwidth, I would love to study, is what makes someone face the same adversity and it breaks some people and other people it makes strong. I think that there's a third option. Okay. So let's start to deconstruct that a little bit. What skills did you figure out earlier than maybe a young child or young girl supposed to figure out, but what are some of the skills you figured out early? That is a complicated

Starting point is 00:24:50 question, but what are the skills? And then how did those skills later show up to not be skills? And so like, sometimes our strength can become a double-edged sword, but like, what is the stuff that you sorted out early that was important for your survival and wellbeing? Yeah, I think independence can turn into isolation. So I was incredibly independent, mostly because I was put in charge of the family at a young age. And I didn't trust the adults that were in charge of me even before I was seven, watching my father, you know, really, really hurt the people around me. He wasn't hurting me as much as he was my sister and my mom. But I think even at a very young age, I didn't understand why my mom would let that happen. So I just had a distrust for authority and I was just very independent. And you really,

Starting point is 00:25:34 people often mistake my childhood. They think that people didn't tell me that I couldn't do something, but really it's just that I didn't hear them. If anyone told me I couldn't do something, it didn't impact me at all. How did that happen? Yeah, how did you do that? I think maybe because it's funny. I think there's a fine line between really trusting yourself versus really distrusting everyone else. I think trusting yourself is a real positive thing.

Starting point is 00:26:00 And having that be born from the fact that you don't trust anyone else. So all you have left is yourself. It's almost the same result, but it's a more difficult path, you know, to get there. Or one is born from a very functional, healthy upbringing where you're taught to trust yourself versus a dysfunctional upbringing where you unfortunately learn that you can only trust yourself. So I just grew up with this very confident trust in myself and my judgment and my decision making. And, you know, I was constantly doing things. I see my kids now climbing on the back of furniture and stuff.

Starting point is 00:26:37 And it makes my husband like tense up and be nervous. And I'm like, let him do it. You know, I don't want him to break something, but it's not going to kill him if he falls from that height. And I want him to build that kind of confidence. My son, I want my son to build that kind of confidence in himself that I had, but to do it in a more positive way. How did you earn the right to trust yourself? Like what was that process? What was the internal process more than the external? It was because I had no choice. There was, There were no other choices. I was the only one

Starting point is 00:27:05 who was making any decisions or was, you know, that's not fair. It's not that I was the only one making any decisions, but I was watching the decisions of those around me and their consequences, I guess. So I don't know. That's a difficult answer to articulate. Yeah, because there are, you did have options. The options could be that, you know what, these adults around here are blowing it and man, maybe that's just how people do it. So I should be scared that I'm going to blow it. So let me always be hesitant. And, but you didn't do that. You, you looked around and you said, okay, there's some stuff that I don't agree with how adults work. I don't think I can trust them. And then I'd love to know how you fill in the next part of that statement. Well, it's a total cop out to say this, but I do feel like there's a little of nature versus

Starting point is 00:27:48 nurture here that maybe there are some things that are just part of who you are. And, you know, when faced with the same set of circumstances, somebody else might respond differently. I often say that there's two kinds of people. There's the people who perpetuate the cycles of violence and those types of things. And I'm not really sure what makes one person do one versus the other, but it was never a choice for me. So that should make me not judge people who make a different choice. Okay.

Starting point is 00:28:38 Really cool worldview about people. And okay, do you now have models or mentors? I know you talked about historical mentors. And I'm imagining that you had to go dig and research because most warrior models in modern times are not female. But I don't want to make that assumption too quickly. No, I mean, as far as like the names that you know, the history is written by the victors and by the people who are in power. So there's a lot of female scientists that we don't know their names, but that doesn't mean they weren't, you know, they're contributing.

Starting point is 00:29:10 So I don't know their names, but I know that there were a lot of women. I love the revolution. I love the Constitution. I love that whole era. And I know there were women dressing as men so that they could take up arms and defend their country. And, you know, I guess I'm not thrilled with the fact that the women who surrounded the founding fathers had to kind of show their influence through their, their spousal relationships and those types of things. But I know that there are women in history whose names I don't know, that, that I still solemnly

Starting point is 00:29:40 kind of nod to thank them for laying the groundwork and for doing the things they did and the sacrifices that they did. And it's just, it's a shame that we don't know their names. Okay. Yeah. Throughout our history, we've had women in combat. They just have been trying to find loopholes around, you know, around how to get into combat. And do you have a mentor now or have you had mentors throughout your life that are alive and, you know, you speak to or around on a regular basis? My stepdad, I lost him when I was 20 years old, like 19 turning 20. And he is one of the most

Starting point is 00:30:14 influential people in my life. He was amazing. But as far as these days, I mean, I've had people who have mentored me and I have mentors from when I was in the military that I still call upon when needed. But I have been really focusing on being a parent. And a lot of that is looking looking downward instead of looking upward sort of right now. So not so much right now. How old are your kids now? I have a two and a half year old dinosaur and a six month old. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:30:43 What is there a word for something that is awake all night and just eats and poops? I don't know, but I remember that phase. Oh, goodness. Okay. So, all right. So this is a super relevant question about parenting. How are you doing with recovery? Because sleep is one of the larger pillars for recovery and it's so compromised when we have young children in the house. So how are you doing on recovery in general? And do you have any tools that you're using to be better at it? I am so incredibly sleep deprived that I was about to crack a joke and tell you to repeat the question because my mental acuity is that being able to be articulate

Starting point is 00:31:21 is just definitely not on. You know, I can understand why it's used as torture in certain prisons. You know, my first kid was sleeping through the night when he was four months old. And if I had known, if I'd had this kid first, I don't know if I would have had the second one because like I said, he's almost six months and it's just not sleeping. And if I was 25, when I had these kids, it might be different. But at 41, it is definitely not easy. I'm sidestepping the question of how do you handle it and how do you recover? Because I don't feel like I'm handling it or recovering. Yeah, good answer. Yeah, good answer.

Starting point is 00:31:54 It is amazing, is really the short answer. Without him, I would have lost my mind a long time ago. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3.

Starting point is 00:32:52 And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com. And use the code FINDINGM FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray.

Starting point is 00:33:32 I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body

Starting point is 00:34:14 just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray, you spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So those are early years and self-trust was one of the resiliency skills or one of the skills that you figured out from a young age. And let's not go into the complicated part of that. Like how did that get in the way later? Because there might not be a higher state than being able to

Starting point is 00:35:08 trust yourself intimately. So let's put a pin on that thought for a little bit. And then going to high school and like, lead us into why the Air Force? Well, I wish I could tell you it's some lofty, idealistic, you know, I wanted to serve my country. There was part of it that obviously I did want to serve my country and I was very patriotic. But I was sitting in a movie theater as opposed to, you know, an airline pilot driven by the FAA and, you know, sort of very little adrenaline involved. I was a bit of an adrenaline junkie. I was constantly speeding. Part of me thinks that that was because I knew I wanted to be a pilot and I knew I couldn't join the military and be successful if I got caught up in drugs or anything like that. So adrenaline was kind of my drug of choice. I did a lot of stupid stuff when I was in high school.

Starting point is 00:36:10 Like? Like, let's see. Actually, this was my first year in college. I was at a convention in New Orleans and running around like a, well, like any 21-year-old, I guess, or 20-year-old. I guess it would have been 19. Cause it was right before my dad passed away. So I was running around hotel room to hotel room with the other, you know, kids that I was at this convention with. And it was like this, it sounds stupid out loud, but it was like this like grownup game of chase. And we didn't want to get trapped. The group that

Starting point is 00:36:40 I was with, like the girls were running from the guys kind of thing. And we were out on a balcony and they figured out what hotel room we were in. And the girls thought, well, the gig is up, you know, we, we lost the game. And I went out onto the balcony and jumped to the next balcony from like the 30th floor. And it was an outside window. So I grabbed onto the edge of the balcony with my arm and it was kind of like a cement railing. It wasn't like a metal railing or anything like that. Almost fell, caught myself with the arm, had like a grapefruit sized bruise around my arm for months from that. And I didn't think that that was strange, but there were people who, you know, thought that I should be seeking mental help. But you know, that comes back to the self-trust thing. And, and I was an adrenaline junkie. So of course that's what I would do. Has that changed? My tolerance for

Starting point is 00:37:38 adrenaline changed when I went to Afghanistan and got shot down and all the other stuff that happened to me, my bar was reset for what would give me that adrenaline high. And I, you know, I used to race street bikes. And when I got back from that last deployment, I was, I was riding, what was that? An R6. And I was really pushing it past my skill limit, trying to kind of catch that adrenaline high. And I and I, and I had a moment where I was like, you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna kill myself. If I if I don't stop this. I went skydiving, I did all sorts of stuff trying to chase that high and nothing would do it for me. So. So I would say it has changed. I'm not doing that anymore. Partly out of a responsibility to my kids, but also because

Starting point is 00:38:25 that high just wasn't to be had anymore. Okay. All right. And then you flew F-16. Was that your craft? I flown in an F-16, but I was a combat search and rescue helicopter pilot. Helicopter. Okay. So where was the F-16 part of your, not a mechanic of that, like there was something in your history that you worked on F-16s then? Yep. I worked on F-16s for two years. That's when I got my F-16 part of your, not a mechanic of that, like there was something in your history that you worked on F-16s then? Yep. I worked on F-16s for two years. That's when I got my F-16 prime. And then I worked on the B-2 stealth bomber for two years.

Starting point is 00:38:53 And then I went to pilot training and flew helicopters. Why did you go helicopters? You know, that's a great question because I thought that I wanted to fly the A-10 my whole life. And then I was offered a slot to fly at A-10 and a slot to fly a PayPock rescue helicopter. And I was going to choose the A-10, of course. And the guy from the helicopter squadron called me and said, so what did you decide? And I said, I'm going to fly the A-10. And he said, well, just tell me why. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Starting point is 00:39:21 I don't want to disrespect what you do, but I've always wanted a fly DA-10. It's so sexy, and it's maneuverable, and it's built around this 20-millimeter cannon, and it's just gorgeous. And he said, well, you know, you could fly low and maneuverable and support the ground troops. And he said, you know you can do all that in a rescue platform helicopter and oh by the way if your flyer attends you're going to train and your skills will only be used if we go into some kind of conflict this was before 9-11 versus if you are a rescue pilot then your skill set could be would be used in peacetime you know like so you don't have to wait for a conflict. You could be stateside and we could have a hurricane and you have to evacuate people off of rooftops or we have wildfire that you have to put out, or there's a fisherman out in the middle of

Starting point is 00:40:14 the ocean, that type of thing. Okay. All right. And then, so you like that. I like the idea that I could be doing the real world mission all the time instead of just training and hoping for a conflict. Not hoping, but hoping to use your skill set someday. And that unfortunately meant that there would be a conflict. Okay. And one of my friends is a rescue pilot, helicopter pilot. And he says, you know, it's not that hard to learn. But he says the moment that it begins to go sideways, that's where all of the training

Starting point is 00:40:46 kicks in. And it's like, you've only got a couple seconds or fractions of seconds before the thing that's trying to rip apart, meaning the helicopter is, and maybe you can describe that. I think it's the shears are moving in opposite directions and like the torque and the tension on the machine is trying to rip itself apart as he puts it. But there's fractions of seconds where when it's about to go wrong, that if you don't have command to bring it back together, then people die. And so can you go through – is that accurate? Very accurate depiction. I also like to say that we're beating the air into submission.

Starting point is 00:41:23 Oh, geez. Flying in a helicopter. But yeah, that's a pretty accurate description. We're taught that in the middle of an emergency, step one in any emergency is to wind your watch. And that's critical because- What a cool image. That's a great, but it sounds so counterintuitive. It is counterintuitive, but I use it in my everyday life because there's no emergency. Well, I'm about to disprove this point, but the idea is that there's no emergency that has to be handled this very second. You'll put your crew at more risk by reflexing to something that's wrong. So a lot of people have died because they've moved the wrong lever or isolated the wrong system or cut off the fuel to the good engine, or this happens a lot. There'll be an engine fire and you flood

Starting point is 00:42:19 the good engine with the fire suppressant. So now you have no engine, you know, that, that type of thing happens all the time. Yeah, I'm sure all the time. I mean, yeah, I'd love that for context, but that there's a similar thing that happens. I'm sure you've read some of the reports in, in the civil war where men were trained and women likely, but I know the story from the, the men that were in combat that they would, in combat that they could shoot into a barrel, like a hay barrel with great accuracy. And they could load and jam the gunpowder in just right, drop the bullet in and shoot with great accuracy over and over and over again. Then on the battlefield, when people would go after and collect the weapons, they would find triple

Starting point is 00:43:05 jammed, quadruple jammed guns with four or five bullets, if you will, jammed into the rifle. So they weren't thinking clearly. They lost their mind because they didn't prepare under conditions of duress. And they certainly didn't prepare shooting into things that look like their cousin. And so in the heat of combat, they literally lost their mind to think clearly. And tell me if I'm wrong on that. Maybe you've heard those stories, maybe you haven't, but it was a nice piece of research that I came around a number of years ago. And it sounds like what you just described as well for helicopter pilots is that, of course, you're going to want to extinguish the fire in the faulty engine. But sometimes we press the wrong lever

Starting point is 00:43:44 because we get things switched up. We're not thinking clearly. Our emotional centers take over extinguish the fire in the faulty engine. But sometimes we press the wrong lever because we get things switched up. We're not thinking clearly. Our emotional centers take over. And what you're suggesting is wind your watch. And I think that that means take a moment. Take a moment, take a breath, confirm what you're about to do with your crew. Even it's so funny. I used to think confirming what you were doing with your crew. It's so important because it means two people. So like if you have your hand on the fuel selector, which is what we use to direct fuel to the engines, and you're about to move the wrong one, and you say, all right, I'm taking the number one fuel selector to crossfeed, confirm. And the guy in the back says no instead of confirm.

Starting point is 00:44:23 They say no, you're not supposed to move number one you're supposed to move number two i thought that's why you confirm with them but in my emergency in my situation when we were losing all our systems because of the damage that we had taken my hands were just moving really fast and i was taking care of all the emergencies and i was calling them out and i was saying confirm and my flight engineer was saying confirmed but he wasn't looking at anything i was doing. He was manning his gun and dealing with his stuff. But just the action of calling it out loud, I think, helped me be confident that I was doing the right thing. Because I really was.

Starting point is 00:45:05 I moved a fuel selector to get fuel to an engine that was about to flame out, mostly because I thought for sure we were already going to be a crater. And I wanted the aircraft mishap investigation crew to come on scene and say, oh, look, she got the fuel selector into crossfeed. So it wasn't the co-pilot's fault that they crashed. No, that's how you were processing in the moment of going down? I was an aircraft mishap investigator. And I know how you can piece together a crashed aircraft. And I really didn't want all those people's lives on my, you know, on my, on my conscience. And I wanted to do everything I could, but I was under no pretenses that I was going to catch that fuel, that engine before it flamed out. Because by the

Starting point is 00:45:34 time I looked at it, it was already empty. And I don't know how long it was empty before I looked at it. I must've looked at it right at the split second that it, that the, uh, the last light extinguished. So, you know, I alluded earlier before we started recording to the moments that we all should have died and kind of the existential crisis that we all had afterwards. That was one of the moments like we should have crashed. That engine should have flamed out. And at that temperature and that weight and that altitude, we never would have made it on one engine. So. Okay. So how did your role in that matter or impact the outcome? I think that, you know, when things don't go my way, this is being

Starting point is 00:46:12 very obtuse. Okay. So when things don't go the way that I hope, like I didn't get a pilot slot the first few years that I tried, I became an aircraft maintenance officer and I learned systems in a very detailed way. And then I found myself in an aircraft that was about to crash and all of its systems were, our caution panel was lit up like a Christmas tree. And my systems knowledge gave me the confidence and to actually grab and move the right things. So a lot of it is muscle memory and training, but it's also confidence. So I think that nowadays when things don't go the way that I hope or whatever, I rest easy that it's because I'm about to face an adversity or go through an experience that's somehow going to pay off for me in the future.

Starting point is 00:46:56 So often people hit the panic button when it's about to not go according to plan. It's not even that it's not going according to plan. They think it's not going to go according to their plan. They hit the eject button, the panic button, and start to either get anxious or pissed off. And then that creates a whole another kind of set of challenges and problems to move through whatever said circumstance efficiently. So how did you learn that? Or when was the switch? Maybe that's a better way. When was the switch from panic, if it's not going according to your plan, and when you got to the place where you said, you know what?

Starting point is 00:47:32 Okay, I'm about to learn something. Stay in it because I'm going to figure something out. You know, I think that there's a very interesting dichotomy between insecurity and self self blame. You would think that someone who blames themselves for things would be someone who's insecure. And I would argue that it's counterintuitive, but totally true that very insecure people will not blame themselves for anything because they secretly believe everything is their fault. So I've always found that the people who are very self-aware can easily step back and say, well, that was my fault. And I've always found that the people who are very self-aware can easily step back and say, well, that was my fault. And I feel like that was key to the success in my life because I didn't

Starting point is 00:48:12 blame anyone for not getting a pilot slot. I said, well, I guess I need to do better at this or that. And it made me better and stronger every year. Because I was confident, I was able to blame myself for the things that went wrong. So it's kind of counterintuitive there. But I would say that when I became a plaintiff for the ACLU, it didn't even really strike me that, hey, my years as an aircraft maintenance officer just saved all of our lives. It didn't even really register until the ACLU contacted me and asked me to be their lead plaintiff for the lawsuit to open jobs, combat jobs for women in the military, that I realized all of the crap I had been through in my life really set me up to be the perfect plaintiff. Because I was a victim of sexual assault. I was a victim of gender discrimination. I had kind of

Starting point is 00:48:57 rebelled against gender discrimination by being quietly competent, I like to say, like I didn't rebel against it verbally as much as I did, just put my head down and buckle down and become the antithesis to whatever the person discriminated against me was saying or thinking or perpetuating. So really, everything that I went through made me stronger, but not because I was determined that it would make me stronger. It was because I saw it as the only path to getting what I wanted. People thank me for my service and talk about being resilient. And it's almost embarrassing for me because all of it came from such a selfish place. I wanted to be a pilot.

Starting point is 00:49:39 I did want to serve my country, but it was also selfishly because I was an adrenaline junkie and I wanted to be Han Solo. I'm resilient because I selfishly recognize that the best way to beat people is to prove them wrong, not talk to them and convince them that they're wrong. So I don't know. I think that there's a certain amount of selfishness, I guess, that is healthy. I guess Ayn Rand would champion that as well. But yeah, I guess the turning point was joining the ACLU lawsuit and realizing that all of the things that I had faced anecdotally made me a difficult person to face down. You know, when I was on the Hill and talking to senators and representatives and staffers, it was hard for them to argue with me because I could say,

Starting point is 00:50:22 well, they would say, well, theoretically, this will happen. And I would say, well, actually, when it happened to me, this is the opposite. Oh, that's rad. Being in the amphitheater, there's very little people can say when you've been through the fire and you've been through it. And OK, I want to get to I think you got shot down, but maybe I missed that part of the story. So I was shot and shot down. You're shot and shot down. Thank you for articulating that. But that you, I'm glad that we're keeping going because I thought, oh, I got that story wrong in my head.

Starting point is 00:50:56 And I thought she saved it from going down. And that's why she received like some honors and, but okay, I want to get to it, but I want to say something because I know I'm going to forget this. And I want to say to you what you just described on the way that you explain or attribute, are you familiar with attribution theory and how people explain events in their life? No. Okay. So let me just take like 15 seconds. There's three levers. If you, if you will, that all of us can choose. The first lever is internal or external. So we explain something like I am to blame for this or I'm the reason why this went wrong. That's internal or external.

Starting point is 00:51:37 No, no, no, no. The conditions were wrong. That person said something. That person did something whatever or in sport like the field wasn't good, right? Or it's internal. No, no, no. I wasn't prepared. So it's internal, external is the first toggle. The second is global and specific. It always happens this way. That's very, that's good. And then specific is like, no, this was a moment in time. And this is how this moment in time worked. And then there's permanent and temporary, the third toggle. So the permanent is like,

Starting point is 00:52:05 once this happens, it's always like this. And then temporary is like, well, you know what? This is going to change over time. And so let's ebb and flow. So you've got a really, what we would call like the strongest framework, which is internal, specific, and temporary. And so that leaves you with like a lot of growth on the other side, because you're saying I have some culpability and some strength. You know, I've got, I've got both. It's my stuff is involved in this. It's a very specific unit in time. And you know, this too will pass. And so those you've lined those up in you're totally on it. Okay. Now take, take me back to where we're talking about where you were

Starting point is 00:52:45 shot and shot down. So it's funny. I often say we were shot up because we were on the ground when we were shot and then we took off and then we crashed. Um, so, so, and were you there to rescue? Yes. We were picking up, uh, some patients that were on a convoy that had hit an IED, so we were exfiltrating them from the battlefield. And we landed, and we were supposed to land and deplane our PJs, who are special forces medics. And we take off, because if we stay in the zone, first of all, we can get shot, and we're a big target. But secondly and most importantly, we're kicking up a bunch of dirt and really loud. And so the PJs will go out and try to get the patients and they can't hear the turnover. They can't hear the vital signs or anything like that.

Starting point is 00:53:33 So we deplane the PJs. We take off. We offset and circle. And they call us when they're ready, right? That's like what we're supposed to do. So we landed. I took a round through my windshield immediately that fragmented into a bunch of little pieces. So I got peppered with some shrapnel from a rifle round that didn't do

Starting point is 00:53:52 a lot of damage. It was like a very superficial damage, but because it was peppered over a large area, I was bleeding a lot. So it freaked out my crew a little bit at first because they were like, holy crap, look at all that blood. But I was fine. Nothing was very deep. I only had a couple pieces that were like embedded in muscle that I later had to get surgically removed. But I digress. No, no, no, no. I mean all of this is super important for me at least because your people looked over at you and said, oh my god, she's a mess. But it doesn't sound like your focus was distracted.

Starting point is 00:54:28 Right. There was a, I mean, I knew my arm was fine immediately. You were shot in your, because it was a shrapnel across your face and the arm? No, it was arm and leg, nothing in my face. The bullet went through the windshield. The glass is very thick. Oh, got it.

Starting point is 00:54:42 Okay. And so the bullet fragmented, it like exploded. It was like more like a shotgun blast. Got it. Okay thick. Oh, got it. Okay. And so the bullet fragmented, it like exploded. It was like more like a shotgun blast. Got it. Okay. All right. Got it. Yep. It was really looking down at my leg and the blood was kind of pooling and getting bigger, bigger, bigger. And then it stopped. And then I was like, whew, okay, good. It's not like arterial, right? But I immediately was able to convince my crew that I was fine because we had trained together and lived together. I mean, we knew each other very well, and we were a very close, tight-knit, well-working team.

Starting point is 00:55:10 How did you do that? So that is a whole other conversation. You know, when we talk about integrating women into combat, one of the arguments is that it hurts unit cohesion. And my argument is the ground combat exclusion policy, the way that that forces us to integrate women does hurt unit cohesion. So women are not allowed to be assigned to the units that have direct ground combat operations, but we need women in combat. So in order to patch that, commanders in the field, they don't assign women to those units, they attach them. So what that means is they're not members of the units at home. They don't train with them. They don't hold the same standards. They don't graduate from the same schools. They attach them

Starting point is 00:55:48 to these units, 45 day rotation so that they're not assigned. And anytime you do that, you throw new people into a combat situation or a high stress situation with no credibility on, you know, no credentials. The people who they have to work next to don't have any idea if they're competent or trained and they haven't been training with them. They don't know who they are. They can't anticipate their weaknesses or their actions. They don't know their strengths. They, they just don't trust them, you know? Okay. So this is what keeps women from taking combat positions, right? Or one of the, one of the, this exclusion policy. So women have been in combat even officially. Well, let me back up.

Starting point is 00:56:30 Not officially getting credit for it. It's not that women aren't taking the positions. It's that women aren't allowed to apply or compete for positions that would place them in direct ground combat. There you go. Okay. That's how it used to be. It used to be until, I know your humility, but you took on the Department of Defense and talk about another level of bravery to be able to deal with any social repercussions

Starting point is 00:56:55 or whatever comes out of that. Like some nasty stuff can fall out of taking on the DOD, but you know. Consider that leadership. I consider that managerial courage. I consider that, you know, like walking into the CEO's office and advocating for your team and, and saying, I need the budget for these tools. It's, it's the same kind of thing. Um, I owed it to my kids.

Starting point is 00:57:16 I owed it to my, my 11 year old female step kid, my stepdaughter who had an adult in her life tell her she couldn't be a Marine because that was a boy's job. I told her that I was going to do something about that. I didn't know what yet I was gonna confront that adult or something. And then the ACLU called me the next day. And I was like, wow, what a what a you know, when the universe lays things out in front of you, you say yes to them. So I said, Yes, I will partner with you, despite the fact that that's going to be an uphill battle. And I was still in the military and I knew I had to sue my boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss.

Starting point is 00:57:52 And it's about to not be the big, you know, MJ versus the military battle that I was worried it would be because as my experience was the same as the other, you know, commanders in the field, they saw that it was the worst thing for military effectiveness. It wasn't really a women's rights issue. It was a military effectiveness issue that women were in combat. The policy just forced people to put them in combat in a way that hurt, you know, cohesion. And we didn't get to have the benefits from those women as much as we could have if we let them just call a spade a spade and you're an infantryman and you're a SEAL and you're whatever, instead of saying, okay,

Starting point is 00:58:30 you go in with the SEALs and yes, you're both kicking in the same doors and patting down the same people and taking the same risk and holding the same rifle, but you're not a SEAL, you're this and you're that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

Starting point is 00:59:00 And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you,

Starting point is 00:59:33 that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll

Starting point is 01:00:23 be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. If there was a position in the military, and maybe this is just a stupid question, but if there was a position in the military that you say, okay, let's start somewhere,

Starting point is 01:01:10 we should have at least 50% of gender split in this role. What role would you pick that to be? Like, where would you start? Well, that's tough because we don't have a 50% split in the military. I know it's outrageous, but let's say there was a wonderful thing that happened tomorrow and you said, okay, good. They saw my head. They saw what I've been thinking. And I just picked the 50% as like it was balanced. But what are the capabilities and skills and where women would thrive and teach the rest of the military if they had more of a larger voice in a particular role? And maybe you say, Mike, I have no idea. And that's fine too. I think it's a great question. I'm just trying to get past the place where if there are 50% women in that job, then that is actually a much higher in relation to the military. That means it's like a female dominated role. And I think what you mean is like representative of the population of the military, let's say, you know, if you're if you're curious, Dr. Robert Eggnall has done a lot of research into this. And he speaks to the UN and talks to them about how having women in the

Starting point is 01:02:17 military and women in combat roles impacts international relations and POW treatment and all sorts of other things. And it's really fascinating. But I would say just from my personal experience, which is really all that I can speak to you, because I haven't studied it. Having women in combat with men is really useful in a lot of ways. But I'll say that for the sake of time, the greatest way is in handling trauma and in handling some of the things that we see. Women have a resiliency, and I think it's born from thousands of years of being victims of violence. Women have a resiliency to some of the things that we have to see and endure that I don't know it comes as natural to

Starting point is 01:03:00 men. Partnered with, and these two things put together make us perfect for recovering from combat, partnered with less of a sense of, I can't ask for help because it makes me weak. So it's the same thing that makes us good marksmen. When we faced what we faced in Afghanistan, all of us had PTSD. Nobody would raise their hand and admit to it. I looked around and thought that was stupid. So I raised my hand and said, okay, I'm having trouble sleeping. I'm having trouble coping. I

Starting point is 01:03:29 have a short fuse with my family. I have all of these symptoms that point to PTSD. I need help. And instead of going and seeking help, my crew came to me and said, hey, so you were seeing a counselor. What did she tell you? And what kind of coping skills? And hey, next time you talk to her, can you tell her you had this dream where this tiger was in this grocery store? I'm like, no. No, you need to go tell your story. Yeah. know, they're not sure if they can go to each other with that stuff because they don't want to get ribbed, but they know that could come to me because I'm not going to. And I don't know if that's more my personality and who I am versus being a woman, but there is this natural kind of, you know, pardon my language, this like dick measuring that happens between guys, especially in very masculine environments that sometimes women can be exempt from.

Starting point is 01:04:31 Okay. Yes. I can appreciate the analogy. So I think you snuck in there that you had PTSD. Yes. And that's something that you work through, still working through? Yeah. I don't know that it's something that you can never really get on the other side of it. I think that you, and I could be wrong about that. That's just my experience. I think that you just have to develop an awareness of it and develop coping tools around it. So it's very easy to startle me. My husband has made a habit of saying I'm walking into the room. Like if he thinks he's going to scare me. I have a hard time with certain smells, although that gets better with time. Time and conditioning. To rewire those smells with safety and hope and joy and love is possible.

Starting point is 01:05:16 It's just getting through that nauseous reaction that is so strong. What are the smells that are triggers for you? I hate to go there, but... Yeah. No, no. You know what? No, stop. We don't have to go there. It's not even important to me. And so just the fact that it's a normal experience for people that go through heavy stuff is totally fair. Just say that the smells associated with being a medevac pilot with burnt vehicles and stuff like that, it's very unpleasant. I can only imagine because as you were describing, you were shot and shot down. And then how did you, are you okay talking about this? Yeah, yeah, sure. So I was shot and then we took off.

Starting point is 01:05:57 No, no, but I want to know how you convinced your crewmates that you're good. Did you scream at them? Did you give, like, how did you convince them that you're good? Stop thinking about me. I did not need to convince them because when you're in business with a partner who you have grown with and trained with and trust your life to, and they tell you that they're good, then they're good. So good. Yeah. Okay. I love that. I love that anecdote for people who think that we can't integrate women into combat because it hurts unit cohesion, number one.

Starting point is 01:06:28 And I've disproved that, that if you integrate them the right way, then that's not true. It's not because they're women. It's because you're treating them like second-class citizens and outsiders and then throwing them in the mix of an area, an environment where unit cohesion is the most important thing. I mean I would argue unit cohesion is not more important anywhere on earth than it is when you're in combat. So there's that. And then there's, oh, well, men can't handle it when they see women bleed. No, strong warriors, men or women can't handle it when they view people who they are supposed to be protecting bleed. Now, if you throw women into the unit or throw anyone who's weaker, maybe let's say, and I hate to say weaker, viewed as weaker. Let's say you throw a child. Yes. But, but even,

Starting point is 01:07:13 even, even a harder analogy would be if I was flying someone like a maintenance guy or a combat photographer or somebody else who just doesn't have combat training, you immediately become protective of that person because you're the warrior and your role is to protect the people who aren't. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you just have a different skill set or you have a different job training or whatever. But if you throw someone into the mix and then treat that person like they are weaker and they shouldn't be able to take care of themselves, then chivalry does and should, by the way, kick in. I teach my kids to be chivalrous. When I'm nine months pregnant and carrying something heavy, you better believe I'm going to let someone open the door for me.

Starting point is 01:07:58 I'm not that much of a feminist. But if I'm walking through a door and I see a 90-year-old guy with a walker walk up, I'm going to hold the door open for him. And I don't understand why people don't get that concept that chivalry isn't a male-female thing. It's a strong perceived weak. I hate to use the word weak because it's so negative. But it's a strong, stronger thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also an act of eloquence where you're just doing something kind for any other human that is available for it.

Starting point is 01:08:26 Yeah. But even beyond kindness, it's, you know, when my husband is carrying my infant and we're walking down the street, I will put him on the interior side and put myself on the side where the traffic is. That's a, that's a, the traditionally male protective thing to do, but he's carrying my infant, you know, so I would much prefer get struck by the vehicle than have him carrying the infant get struck by the vehicle. So it's just makes sense, you know, very cool. Yeah. React to the fact that I was bleeding because I was a woman or anything like that. I showed them that I could make a fist and that I was fine. And they said, fine, if you, if you say you're fine, then we trust you. And we're going back in. We went back in to pick up the patients. And at that point, the aircraft was fully

Starting point is 01:09:07 functional. When we landed the second time though. I'm sorry. What shot you MJ? What was it like a small, a large, a small arm rifle. Okay. In the middle of a desert in Afghanistan or was the hillside getting shot with a small caliber? Anything? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to imagine like, was it, sorry for being insensitive.

Starting point is 01:09:29 Yeah. I don't want to be insensitive at all. Because the bullet fragmented so easily. I'm picturing this like old 1980s Russian, you know, like Soviet bullet in some like AR-15 or something. So it was a, it was like a person that was firing a weapon

Starting point is 01:09:46 as opposed to like someone, some big old cannon on someone's shoulder that came through. It was a golden BB. So when we landed the second time, they had repositioned a heavy belt fed machine gun, which is not small. That is like, you know,

Starting point is 01:10:00 well, belt fed should speak for itself and started just ripping us to shreds, starting from the tail and walking up toward the nose very slowly, thank God, because it's hard to maneuver. It's a heavy piece of machinery. So we got our patients on board. We took off and immediately realized we wouldn't make it far. Mostly we were losing systems left and right, but mostly it was the fuel that I alluded to earlier.

Starting point is 01:10:24 Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So you're getting, your, your aircraft is getting shot up. You're on the ground. You're trying to get people on board and you've got like this natural instinct to want to help others and this are trained something. I'm not sure what's natural. I'm sure that there's a natural instinct to want to save and preserve your life and others' lives, but you stay. Was there ever a conflict there? I got to go. I should go. Yeah. I'm sorry. We were actually also dealing with an interior intercom horn that was going off because we lost our horizontal stabilizer on our tail. And when that happens, it's very dangerous. So the horn started going off. So we couldn't talk to each other. And my aircraft commander was actually brand new. I'd only been

Starting point is 01:11:09 flying with him for two weeks, but I had the most combat hours of anyone in the rescue community. And he just trusted me. And I was using my hand signals like I was telling him to stay on the ground. And he's the aircraft is rocking like a little tugboat in a storm, and he's listening to me. He's keeping the aircraft on the ground and letting us take all the damage because if we had lifted, we would have killed somebody because they were loading patients on the aircraft. So when the patients finish getting loaded, the amount of trust that that takes and the steely nerves to just trust your co-pilot, especially when he's the higher ranking person, he's, he's pretty amazing. If you can't tell by the way I'm talking about it, and I'm skipping a lot. I mean, his pilotage that day was really, it was really art and, and, and beautiful. And, and, uh, I just really respect him as a pilot. I, I just signed a book and put it in the mail to him. And my

Starting point is 01:12:00 inscription to him was George, you're the only pilot who I'll admit is better than me. Oh, yeah. Rescue, but we're not humble as pilots. So I don't know if that's the right stuff, but there's, you know, who's the best pilot you ever saw? I was fortunate enough to spend a little bit of time on the USS Truman with some pilots and XOCO somewhere in the Atlantic.

Starting point is 01:12:27 Well, you don't have the people to do that job. You just do. Yeah, it's outrageous. So let's see. So yeah, we're sitting on the ground. We load our patients. But how did you do that? How did you make the commitment?

Starting point is 01:12:37 Or why did you make the commitment to stay? Because you're going to kill more people if you took off? Or you thought, that's my job? It's like if you were sitting there, you know, getting shot at in a car and somebody was trying to put somebody with a spinal injury on a litter into your backseat. If you gun the accelerator, you're going to kill the person in the litter, probably going to hurt the people who were trying to load him too. So yeah, again, it wasn't really a decision. It's, you know, our motto in rescue is these things we do that others may live. And we're faced every day with the fact that we might not go back

Starting point is 01:13:10 home to see our families, but we're going to do what we can to get other people home to see theirs. We've signed up for this. A lot of the people we're rescuing did not think they were signing up for this. They're on transports, they're logistics. Hell, Shoshana Johnson was a cook. She was the first female African-American POW in Iraq. So we signed up for this. We not only volunteered but had to work and be selected for years in training to do it. So there's a sense of sacrifice already when you come on to a team like that. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I want to get into some like specific skills that you've developed, but I want to ask maybe

Starting point is 01:13:50 a more broad question first, which is, wait a minute, wait a minute. Am I leaving the story too early? Because I just want to mention why we were shot down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the damage on the ground. We take off.

Starting point is 01:14:04 We've got fuel spilling out everywhere. I catch the engine from flaming out miraculously and keep us flying, but we're still leaking fuel. So I say to the aircraft commander, we need to land. And he's like, yeah, yeah, we're RTB, which is return to base. And I say, no, no, no. We need to land over here or we're going to crash over there because we don't have enough fuel because we're pissing fuel. So he executed a hydraulics off soft crash slash hard landing. That is why even though we saved the aircraft from crashing, we still kind of crash landed, but we crashed in a way that not everybody got killed.

Starting point is 01:14:41 Wow. Oh, my goodness. Okay. And then that was your pilot that you were describing earlier, Gregory, that made those maneuvers? Both pilots, but he was a senior pilot. Yeah. He was a senior pilot. Okay. And so when you have two pilots, are you both flying or is like, are your hands off and his hands on or both hands on during something like that? Nope. We are always one pilot inside, one pilot outside. So the pilot outside has their hands on the controls and they are flying the aircraft.

Starting point is 01:15:11 The other pilot is inside doing navigation and monitoring systems. Okay. So if he said, let's say he wanted to navigate, maybe he doesn't trust that I'm navigating right or he wanted to check some systems or he was tired and that happens, you get fatigued because you hold a different sense of alertness when you're flying the aircraft let's say he is ready to hand the controls over me he'd just say he'd go uh co-ac and i'd say go and he'd say co-pilot has the controls and i'd shift myself into my seat and get ready for a good long haul of flying possibly and i would ghost my hands over the controls and i would say co-pilot has

Starting point is 01:15:44 controls and he'd go co-pilot has the controls and he would let go and my hands over the controls and I would say, copilot has controls. And he'd go, copilot has the controls. And he would let go and I would hold the controls. So it's a three-way confirmation. There's no question who's flying. And then I'm flying and he's navigating and he's looking at the systems. Okay. All right. Cool.

Starting point is 01:15:57 Now, you also said in there that not everybody died. So you lost people. I mean, nobody died. Nobody died. Okay. Yeah. I just meant like he crashed in a way nobody died. Nobody died. Okay. Yeah. I just meant like, he crashed in a way that didn't kill everybody. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When I heard that, I was like,

Starting point is 01:16:14 okay, so some people didn't make it and some people did, but yeah, no, no, no. Yeah. Okay. That's one of the miraculous things about the story. It's ridiculous that nobody died. We were covered in fuel. We crashed. I was shot. We were facing 150 enemy fighters. It was a crazy day. We got exfiltrated out on the skids of a small Kiowa helicopter. We were in the California Air National Guard during the time that Schwarzenegger was governor. So he was our boss because the governor is always the guard's boss. Right. So we were like, get to the choppa.

Starting point is 01:16:47 And yeah, it was very exciting. We were channeling our boss. Oh my goodness. Okay. What a, what a tremendous experience. And I'm wondering like tremendous. I hope that does enough, you know. There's not really a word. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:02 Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are you glad you lived through that? Am I glad I lived? Yeah, of course. You're glad you lived. Right. But are you glad that you went through, I want to get into the psychology. I will tell you that my life is so blessed and so wonderful. And I'm so in love with my soulmate and my children that part of me

Starting point is 01:17:18 wonders every now and then if I did die when I was then, when I was there, because it's just, I also suffer from, um from I don't know what you would call the condition but I am constantly feeling like every good thing in my life is about to get ripped away I think that comes from my childhood dad I used to describe it like I was just sure that my husband would get hit by a bus any day now because we just had too perfect of a relationship. So am I glad I lived through it? You know, I'm glad that my, my first instinct, my, my kind of pop-off answer to that is that I'm glad it was me because that day, not everybody responded to the emergency in a way that would make them proud. There were some people who backed down and almost got us all

Starting point is 01:18:05 killed or, you know, that type of thing. Didn't do their job, that type of thing. So I was just glad that it was me and not somebody else because I loved my crew like they were my brothers. And if I wasn't there, honestly, it was hardest for the people who were back in the operations center listening to the whole thing unfold on the radio. That's who is really hard on. Yeah. Right. Because the lack of control from just being an observer. Listening to people you love that you would bleed for and you can hear their voices on the radio and you just don't know what's happening. Especially, you asked me if I had any mentors. The commander who was our deployed commander at the time, his name was Colonel Hunt, is like a big brother to me. He's certainly one of the mentors that I still utilize when I need mentoring. And he was the commander at the time and was,

Starting point is 01:18:50 you know, back in the operations center, listening to the radios, basically listening to his little sister at the hit. And he had no idea the extent of my injuries or anything like that. And he's, he can't interrupt and ask because we're in the middle of, you know, a battle that was not easy for him. Jeez. Okay. What allowed you to be successful in that day? When I speak about this, because a lot of people wonder how they're going to respond when the shit hits the fan. And a lot of people in my career field reached out to me and said, hey, I want to be sure I do what you did. How did you prepare for that? So I think that's similar to what you're asking. It is. Yeah. When I give this speech, I title it practice

Starting point is 01:19:30 every day for the once in a lifetime moment. So people often wonder what they're going to do when they get like their 15 minutes of fame. Is it a, you know, the BP executive under scrutiny for the oil spill? Like what, what is it that when all the cameras and all the spotlights turn on you, how do you make sure that you act in a way that you can be proud of for the rest of your life? And my answer to that, you know, my layman's answer, you probably have a much more scientific answer, is that it's muscle memory and it's character memory is the same thing. And that if you hope when those cameras and lights turn

Starting point is 01:20:06 toward you, that you're going to respond with integrity, then you have to do everything with integrity. You have to wash your dishes with integrity. You have to walk to the mailbox with integrity. You, you know, whether that means, you know, a standard of excellence that you hold yourself to that when you're washing the dishes, you make sure you get every crumb or you go to the mailbox and you see, you know, a wallet or something that you try to return it to the owner. My only point is that you have to practice those things. You have to make it part of your character. You can't expect to just do them when it's important because when it's important and you're under pressure and you're hitting that panic button, Michael, that you were talking about, you don't have a choice how you respond. You are going to reflex, respond the way that you have your whole life.

Starting point is 01:20:53 You know, I'm quietly nodding my head going, I love everything that you just said. And the intensity required to do that and the intent and the purpose and the focus and the awareness required to do all that is really hard. And it starts with doing some lonely introspective work first. And I think you might find this story familiar about the warrior class of samurai that they, after enough of kind of butts in the seat for the Zen traditions and trying to figure out like the purpose of life, they said, you know, okay, I'm going to die. And I'm obviously, you know, making broad strokes here. I'm going to die.

Starting point is 01:21:34 Now, in the moment of my death, how do I want to be when I die? And okay, well, if I want to be honorable, well, then I've got to wash my dishes that way. I've got to sweep my floor that way. I've got to sweep my floor that way. And that's the training. And it's easy for us to intellectualize that we're going to die, but it's ridiculously hard to prepare for that. And because we have to do that, we have to really invite and swallow and sit with the fragility of life and that we are going to die and how it prepares us for quality of life. You know, quality of the moment of death prepares us for the quality of life when we really

Starting point is 01:22:10 sit with it. So I'm nodding my head here going, yes. And you have such a credible voice to be able to say it because the way that you responded with authenticity reveals itself in the way that you tell the story and the whole thing. So I love that you're able to amplify that and have a real credible voice in it. Thank you. Do you have a mindfulness practice? I, gosh, I haven't done any, any like self-care in years because I'm a mom of little kids and

Starting point is 01:22:39 all of that went out the window. But before I became my own third priority, I practiced Tai Chi, I meditated, you know, all of that, that kind of thing. I, I'm also a big believer in in focusing on beauty. I get that from the samurai, I think I had a lightbulb moment the other day that I think you'll appreciate. I was at the beach, my husband whisked me off and rescued me and took me to the beach and wouldn't let me look at my phone because I was about to have a mental breakdown over an overload of stuff going on in my life. So we went to Port Aransas. We're sitting on the beach. I'm sitting in the chair.

Starting point is 01:23:15 I look to my left and I see my teenage stepdaughter wearing a way too revealing swimsuit. And I see 40-year-old men, she's 15, looking at her. And that carries with it all sorts of stress. And then I looked to my right and I see my husband building a sand castle, which is adorable, but it's also inappropriate because I think that the mermaid has boobs or something like that. And I see my toddler who's eating sand and I think about, you know, what that's doing to him. And, um, and I turn and I look at my infant who I adore, but I'm wondering, you know, he, he's going to need to nurse in a few minutes. I'm looking at

Starting point is 01:23:51 the schedule and I'm like, Oh, he's going to need a nurse. And I switched sides every time. And the side he's about to go on is really sore and that's going to hurt. So that kind of starts giving me like a physical pain sensation. And then I look out into the ocean and I get this overwhelming sense of calm. And I realized as I look from all of ocean and I get this overwhelming sense of calm and I realize as I look from all of those different things that I'm running through the gamut of emotions I am experiencing like rage at the men who are looking at my stepdaughter and then I'm you know experiencing kind of humor and and contentness when I or contentment when I look at my husband and then fear for my child who's eating sand and then fear for myself when I look at my husband, and then fear for my child who's eating sand,

Starting point is 01:24:25 and then fear for myself when I look at my infant. And I realized that that's a great metaphor for life, that nothing around me was changing. My whole life wasn't changing at all. Everything was the same, but how I felt was changing depending on what I chose to focus on. So if I chose to focus on the ocean and the beauty and the peacefulness of it, it just calmed me. So I try in my life when it's hectic and crazy to ask myself if I'm focusing on the right thing. What a great strategy. So with

Starting point is 01:24:59 awareness, then you can feel something, right? In like fear, anger, whatever, whatever body sensations or joy or happy. And then you quickly say, what was the question that you just said? Like, how did you say it? When you feel something, you ask yourself. Focusing on the right things. So for example, just recently,

Starting point is 01:25:15 the most recent example, I hope he doesn't hear this interview, but my chief of staff was driving me crazy with something. And I was starting to get like irritated that he was pushing back so much on a decision we were trying to make. And I thought, you know, instead of focusing on being irritating that that he's pushing back, I should be happy that I've established a relationship with him where he's comfortable pushing back that I'm not surrounded by sycophants

Starting point is 01:25:40 that I have a quality person who is comfortable sharing his expertise with me. And I'm still going to overrule him, but I'm really glad I have him as my chief of staff. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That perspective, yeah, changes a lot. Do you know the name Jon Kabat-Zinn by any chance? No. Jon Kabat-Zinn was one of the first folks, he's an MD, that brought mindfulness and the science of mindfulness to America. And he was one of the forefathers that did so. And he's really at the tip of the arrow for mindfulness in America. Done an incredible job of creating a program and evidence-based and the whole thing. And it's just amazing. Spent time with him a couple of weekends ago. And he says, there was somebody that we're

Starting point is 01:26:22 with that was pregnant. And he goes, oh my gosh, when you have your child, that's when some incredible mindfulness training can begin. And so my intent had perked up because I know the story of feeling overwhelmed from my wife's perspective, my perspective as well of having a reliant being in our midst. And so he says, every time you hold the child and you just look at them and you just watch them breathe and you, you breathe with them, or you just look in their eyes or you just look like absorb them. That is mindfulness. And, and the moment that you start to drift off to other things, like worry about whatever or whatever, whatever, then just come back to connecting to like the texture of the skin or the rhythm of their breathing or watching their

Starting point is 01:27:03 heartbeat or whatever, fill in the story, that that essentially is a mindfulness practice. You know, it doesn't have to be sitting on a pillow, Indians cross-legged, you know, in some kind of way like that. That's not necessarily or that's not at all the image that needs to come up for being present. Yeah, I completely agree. I think that having an infant looking at such a tabula rasa molding clay in your hand. Is that how you see human nature? Blank slate?

Starting point is 01:27:32 I do. We're not born evil. We're not born good. Right. I mean, when my toddler does something that I would have said was born from evil, I realize that he's just mimicking my own behavior back at me. Yeah. Okay. That's good. So it's all my fault. There's my lever. My lever is, you know, it's me. There it is. Right. That's exactly right. Okay. So I've got one general question. Then I want to get into some real specific things. And I'm mindful of our time here is that how do you go to be the sixth woman in

Starting point is 01:28:05 history to receive the DFC award, the distinguished flying cross award where Amelia Earhart was the first? Is it the experience that you just shared with us or does something else take place in your case? Oh, okay. Well, I'm open. I want to hear it, But what an honor, though, to be one of six. It is an honor. And it is a complete and total failure because the fact that I am only the sixth is something our country should be ashamed of. The fact that the amazingly brilliant female pilots that came before me, the WASPs and the people who really laid the foundation were not recognized for being, you know, in combat. They weren't given the DFC is not just for combat, but they just they weren't recognized to the level that they should have been. It's a travesty that I'm the sixth. Let me put it that way. So I don't understand the award well enough. Is this, okay. So it can read as being the sixth woman in history to receive this, that the distinguished acts are so ridiculously amazing that they've only given

Starting point is 01:29:10 it out six times. Or is this the same award that they give out 1000 to men and only six to women? Yes. Oh, okay. So it's not like there's a category and this is for all. Okay. So this is for all pilots and not enough women have been distinguished is what you're saying. You, Amelia and four, five. Recognized for being distinguished. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that's the tragedy. Yeah. Yes. I'm sorry. Sorry to not be more specific yet. That's the tragedy is that there have been other more deserving women before me who haven't gotten it. So when people say that I'm the sixth, the first thought in my mind is I can't believe I'm only the sixth. That's crazy.

Starting point is 01:29:50 Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. Okay. Well said. Thank you. Okay. So I've got some really kind of very specific questions that I want to ask you. Where does pressure come from? From the little voice in your head that says that you could or should be doing better. Okay. It all comes down to? Character is my instinct. And what are the three most important character traits for you? Compassion slash empathy.

Starting point is 01:30:19 I kind of feel like those are sort of similar. I don't think they're the same exact thing. But compassion and empathy. Integrity. I kind of feel like those are sort of similar. I don't think they're the same exact thing, but compassion and empathy, integrity, but I kind of, that's also a broad term, like integrity of intent as well. So I kind of lump like a commitment to excellence under integrity. So you just hit three of the top 15 character traits.

Starting point is 01:30:41 There's a very well accepted assessment and people can take it online for free. I'll put it in the show notes and you take that assessment. Basically it spits back your three mode or your, I think it's your top five character traits and appreciation of excellence, compassion and integrity are on that top 15 list. So yeah, well done. Okay. The crossroad of my life was, Oh gosh, I've had so many, I would have to say when my stepdad passed away. If you had the chance to do it over again, you would? Do it exactly the same way.

Starting point is 01:31:15 Cool. Success is? Being able to sleep at night. Love? I don't mean because your baby's waking you up. Yeah, right. Okay, cool. How do you respond to the word love? It's all around you. You just have to look for it. And then the word relationships? For me, it's very challenging and difficult. And my vision is better than 2020. Hence, I'm a good pilot.

Starting point is 01:31:46 Okay. What is your vision? Is it 2015, 2010? Oh, yeah, yeah, 2010. I had a, yeah, I was taking, I'm sorry, I'm taking a soft topic. I was taking an eye exam in Japan with a Japanese physician who I read the line. He said, you know, read whatever line you can read. And I read it and he put his hands over his lab coat and he said, Oh, you can see two of my clothes. It was really funny. Okay, good. How do you finish this thought? I am.

Starting point is 01:32:16 I'm trying to get past my instinct. My gut says I am exhausted. Thank you. Okay. Put a period behind it. Yep. Yeah, that's good. That's honest. Okay. Then these are like some more tactical questions, like one to 10. Okay. 10 being like really high, one being low. Your ability to switch on. Oh, 10. Your ability to switch off, deregulate. Two. Your ability to manage internal distractions, the noise inside your head. Three. Your ability to lock in

Starting point is 01:32:45 when it's dangerous. Oh, 10. 10. Yeah. When it's boring. Ooh, two. During emotional risk. Two. Motivated. So motivated by internal rewards or external. So external first, like one to 10 external rewards. Five. Internal rewards. 10. Your openness to ideas and experiences. 10. Yeah. All right.

Starting point is 01:33:14 So risk-taking. Eight. Breaking rules. 10. 10. Yeah. Science. Science?

Starting point is 01:33:21 Yeah. How important is science to you? Oh, I hate to give you all 10s, but that's a 10 for sure yeah music nine spirituality eight being self-critical nine great habits i was critical about myself giving myself yeah what was the last one sorry yeah you're too busy up in the internal noise to yeah about myself giving myself. I heard the pod. Yeah. What was the last one? Sorry. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:33:47 You're too busy up in the internal noise to, yeah. So the, the, the, let's talk about the self-critical really quickly. Like how do you deal with that internal civil war? I think that how I deal with it differs depending on which type of critical I'm being to myself.

Starting point is 01:34:02 So as a, as a woman who is used to be a warrior and we used to race street bikes to a mom now, who's, you know, physically I'm 41. I am, you know, having a hard time losing the baby weight. One of the, one of the hardest things I have with, with myself right now is body image, especially since the big secret announcement that you and I talked about, I'm getting photographed and videotaped everywhere. Not being critical of myself in front of my stepdaughter to provide her with positive body image of herself. So how I deal with being critical of myself depends on what we're talking about.

Starting point is 01:34:39 It's wild because let's say you didn't add that in this conversation, which is like, that's not actually not a gender specific issue. Like when we deconstruct like how both genders in physique based sports like weightlifting or fitness or whatever, whatever, like it's a real deal for both genders. And I think like just talking about is really important because it is hard to measure up against Shape Magazine and muscle and fitness. It's really hard to, but it's also hard to pay too much attention to what other people might be thinking of us. And so like there is that balance, like, okay, I know I've looked better and I felt better. Like, why am I not that now?

Starting point is 01:35:19 What should I be doing to get to that place? But as soon as we start to cut ourselves, it becomes, and I don't mean literally, but it becomes really engulfing. So I appreciate that you bring that up. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 01:35:31 One to 10. Caffeine. Right now. Well, shoot. See, I'm breastfeeding, so I can only have one or two cups. And so is caffeine usually important to you? I have to have it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:35:42 And then what about alcohol? That's a nine. Alcohol's a it. Yeah. And then what, what about alcohol? That's a nine. Alcohol's a four. Yeah. Take it or leave it, but sometimes you take it. Yeah. Sometimes I take it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. All right, man. What a phenomenal conversation. Like I really have learned a lot from you and I want to thank you for your time. And I know it sounds so trite to say thank you for your service. I'm not going to say it. I just appreciate how you've conducted yourself and the way that you're so articulate of who you are and what you've been through. And I think more than anything, more than the tactical kind of ways that you successfully have navigated each phase of your

Starting point is 01:36:18 life, I think that the way that you have captured it is striking to me. So yeah, thank you for the time and investment in yourself to be able to articulate so clearly. And maybe I'll ask the question, like, what do you see, what do you think is going to happen for you in the next three years of your life? You can take that or not take it. I can tell you that I think in the next three years, I'll be serving District 31 as their congresswoman in Washington, D.C. Yeah, that's awesome. So what does that feel like for you? It feels like, what the hell am I doing?

Starting point is 01:36:56 I am called to defend the Constitution again against a threat to our national security and our civil rights. And I wish that I didn't feel called to defend it because there's other things that I thought I would be doing right now, but I can't look my kids in the eye and tuck them in at night and feel like I'm protecting them unless I do everything I can. So. Well, it certainly feels like from just getting to know you that we're lucky to have your voice in our government. So best success to you. And I know that you'll be strong based on the framework that you're coming from. So, you know, whatever I and our community can do to support

Starting point is 01:37:30 you, we will definitely, and I definitely will do so. Thank you so much. That, that really means a lot to me. Thank you, Michael. And likewise, let me know how I can support, you know, the podcast and the project and the good work you're doing. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. For sure. For sure. Okay. So thank you so much. And do you have any social media handles or anything like that? Yes.

Starting point is 01:37:51 Yeah. What are they? So Twitter is at MJ Hagar. Okay. Also Instagram is the same. And that's MJ and then H-E-G-A-R. And what kind of name is Hagar? Chuck.

Starting point is 01:38:04 Chuck. Okay. And then what is it like to have Angelina Jolie possibly play you in a role? Well, I think if you met me, you would be like, oh, well, obviously that was a perfect casting. I get mistaken for her in the grocery store all the time. You know, it's surreal for sure. It's strange and terrifying as an introvert who is very private with her personal information. Yeah. Well, there you have it. I mean, writing it. Another conversation on how I came to write a memoir, given my personality.

Starting point is 01:38:38 Yeah, I know. I mean, and a successful one. Shoot Like a Girl. Like, I hope folks pick it up based on this conversation. And is there a best place to buy it? Is it something.com? I like to encourage people to buy from their local bookstores. If you want a signed copy, you can buy one from my local bookstore here in Austin called Book People.

Starting point is 01:38:57 You can request it to be signed. I go and sign copies once a week or so. Ah, really cool. Very cool. All right. MJ, thanks for your time. Thank you. and really look forward to tracking your success in government. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 01:39:10 Take care. You too. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

Starting point is 01:39:39 listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors.

Starting point is 01:40:16 And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Starting point is 01:40:58 Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.

Your Ad Here

Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Major MJ Hegar on Escaping Death, Remaining Calm, and Trusting Self

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.