Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Master What’s in Your Control | AMA Vol. 20 w/ Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Happy Monday! Today we’re excited to share Volume 20 of Finding Mastery’s Ask Me Anything.As always, we have so much fun during these AMAs – we love these conversations because we get to wrestle with the questions that matter most to you… and they inspire personal introspection in us as well. They’re incredible.We’re back with our co-host – O’Neil Cespedes – and in today’s we explore:The roses - and thorns - of vulnerability and opennessHow to use the power of your imaginationNavigating change in professional relationshipsControlling the controllables (and what those controllables are)Flow StateThe art and impact of great storytellingAnd so much more…Keep those questions coming in! Kindly email [e-mail] to submit!_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and to do that in an uncommon way. Effort, intensity, focus. If you get that stuff right, winning will take care of itself. Welcome back, or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your journey to become.

And so we're back with our co-host, O'Neill Cespedes, and today's conversation is a fun one. We explore the importance of accountability, how to use the power of your imagination, the art and impact of storytelling, navigating change in professional relationships, and so much more. We love these conversations and it's because we get to wrestle with the questions that matter most to you and they inspire personal introspection in us as well. They're incredible. Thank you. Thank you for challenging us with great questions. Keep them coming. So with that, let's dive right into volume 20 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything.

O'Neill, AMA 20. Mike, AMA 20. Here we go. Let's get it. You know, this is going to sound really cliche, but time flies when you're having fun i know it's yeah it's so good though there's you know the favorite part about this is that the questions that come in are really challenging oh and so i've said this a hundred times um you know i'm always impressed by just how easily the questions drill right into the center, right into the heart of something. And so I know my anxiety is that I don't do service to the intelligence of our community. So no, from where I'm sitting, I think you do, because I feel it.

I feel it because most of the time their questions bounce back on me and then I have to answer some. You know what I thought last time is that you, you took us in a different way. Like you, you made it, we made it really personal. I asked you some questions and it was really intimate and personal and honest. And is that cool?

Or is that, is that not a good service of how we're doing what we're doing? Cause I loved it, but I just want to make sure you're good with it. I want to make sure I answer this the right way. It is. Let me be honest with you. I'd like to think of myself as an open guy,

right. And you know, and a vulnerable guy, but I'm not, I've been lying to myself. Right. And it's even more evident when I sit down and talk to you. That's so funny.

I'd like to think of myself a certain way. But I'm not. And you expose that. And it's good for me. I don't like it when you expose me. I truly do not. But it's good for me and it's making me more vulnerable and open. And that's funny that you asked that.

Let me tell you something. When I was driving home after I told you all that, I was thinking to myself, like, man, damn, why do you say that? Why do you say all that? You should have said something different. But that was just the negative side of me telling me, no, go back in your, you know. Well, that's actually really common. More common than you might imagine is that when we are vulnerable and honest, that immediately after there's like, what did I just do? Right? that immediately after there's like, what did I just do? Yeah. Right. Like, am I going to be okay in, in my own self?

And what is he or she, or what are they going to think of me later? A hundred percent. Right. And so it's more about what they're going to think. Cause when we were in it and when we are in it, I, the honesty is apparent and it just makes it so real that I feel like, oh, this is awesome. Like we're both trying to learn something or articulate or get better at something. And I,

I don't have that secondary hit as much as I used to, but I recognize it as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there was that moment when I was thinking to myself, what did I do? What did I say? And then let me tell you how far I went. Cause I go far, Mike, really did I do? What did I say? And then let me tell you how far I went. Because I go far, Mike. I go really far. I dramatize it, right?

I was playing out the scenes in my head of what people may have been saying or thinking like, well, he needs to be a – you need to mend things with your kids. You need to be a better dad. What's wrong with you? I was going through all – like, man, are they saying this? Are they saying that? Why am I saying that yeah yeah i i so respect it that i mean you're speaking right to what i think keeps most of us pretty small is that we are terrified about how we'll be perceived by

other people yeah you know it is the essence of you you know, the first world mastery of the book we wrote. But I just think it's so freeing when you can be honest. It is. So thank you. Welcome. Don't thank me too much though, because I'm human. So you have a hard time with compliments? No, no. Do you want to talk about this?

No, no. God, please. I'm totally joking. I'll back myself to another corner. Totally joking. No, I'm saying don't thank me too much because I'm human and I'm probably going to try to dance around any vulnerable

situation the same goes to me as well when you're asking a question and you're drilling right at the heart of it is that I'm also working to make sure that I'm being honest so the calibration is real.

So, and if there's things that you'd like me to make more personal or make more honest, if you will, like make sure that you're holding that accountability to me as well. Okay, great. Yeah, all right. Well, there you go. We're in it.

We're in it. You all know what this means, right? Yes. More vulnerable O'Neal. Yeah. Here we go. Let's go. We're in it. We're in it. You all know what this means, right? More vulnerable O'Neal. Here we go. Let's go. All right. So the first question is from Anonymous. It should be interesting.

I mean, we're just talking about being open and vulnerable, and then Anonymous comes in. Well, shout out to Anonymous. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Maybe this will help me lock down. In the past year, I've been promoted to a C-suite role. First of all, I don't even know what a C-suite role is, but I'm sure you'll tell me that later. This is wonderful, of course. And my past boss has been my biggest advocate and champion. Now we're colleagues on the C-suite team, I have found that now that I am at his level, I am behind the curtain, so to speak. And I'm seeing a different side of my past boss slash mentor, now colleague. I am starting to feel like I'm outgrowing him and that it's causing a strain on our relationship.

Is there research on such transitions or research on our growing mentors? I understand why this question is from anonymous. Why? Too much honesty here could get this person fired. You know, like in some respects they're going in on the boss a little bit, but so C-suite meaning executive suite and, you know, the leadership team,

CMO is chief marketing officer, CEO, chief executive officer and so yeah that's really interesting um you know that phrase that sometimes it's better not to meet your heroes that that type of idea is coming forward here and that to me doesn't point to the current condition it points to what preceded the current condition and't point to the current condition. It points to what preceded the current condition. And what preceded the current condition for anonymous is seeing somebody for other than what they are. Seeing only part of a person. And maybe the supervisor of the boss, her now colleague, was holding back how he worked or she worked.

Was it a he? A he. It was a he. I'm more interested in not the current state that she's in or that Anonymous is in. I'm more interested in what preceded it, which is the way that that relationship was set up. So Anonymous was seeing her boss in a way that was not real and honest. Maybe the boss was holding back, manipulating, embarrassed by, didn't want her to know whatever the set of conditions for him were that he wasn't completely transparent, or was it that anonymous didn't want to see those things and was only looking for the way to prop up

this boss supervisor leader. Both of those could be true. And when we don't really know each other and then we see another version of each other, if we can't embrace the entirety of that transition, it becomes really difficult. Meaning that when you see something in somebody you don't like, you're now the judger. As opposed to saying like, oh, there's another dimension to this person. And how does that fit with my earlier understanding? So moving from the critique judger to, well, actually moving from the naive, misinformed or misobserving

of how somebody behaves into a judge critiquer, that's not really ever going to work. But if you can have a through line through to be really curious, like how does this add to who this person is and continually stay curious, I think you'll find that that relationship will change because you've changed. So this person could be an absolute tool, could be a bad operator, could be a snake in the grass, could be a sheep in wolves clothing, could be a lot of things. I'm assuming right now that Anonymous didn't exactly just know how some things got done. And when she's seeing how those things are done, she doesn't like it. So I'm assuming best intent in it. If anonymous were to ground his or herself in curiosity and trying to help the person be their very best, and the leader is also in return feeling that

benevolent support and in return helping Anonymous be her very best or his very best, you might have something. But it doesn't change until we change. The relationship won't change until I change. And I don't know what else to say to it. Try to run the boss out of there, move to another company. I mean, I don't know what another option is other than ground yourself in curiosity

and see how you can help your former boss now colleague be their very best. Let's stop there. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively.

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Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here.

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matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. It's so wild because, you know, listening to your perspective on this, because the first thing I thought when I read this was like, maybe this is just a really simple way of looking at it,

too simple, but I was like, well, sounds like you put your boss on a, your former boss on a pedestal. And now that your boss isn't living up to what you thought, you know, they should be, you outgrown them. Now that may very well be the case that you've outgrown them because now that you're their equal,

right? Their colleague. But is that an unfair, it's kind of what you just said about meeting your heroes. Is it unfair to take these people and put them in this grandiose high position? Yeah, that's part of it. That's why I was pointing to the naivete of anonymous, like seeing something that wasn't actually real. So he or she, the supervisor, could be exceptionally skilled at being deceptive.

But it's a little bit too easy to blame that person. I want to speak right to anonymous and say, wait, hold on. This was a mentor of yours and you couldn't see any of this? You missed all of this? All of it? And now you see it? Oh, that's interesting. To me, it's a little bit like somebody says, yeah, I'm really struggling in the relationship I'm in. And then I want to remind them, you chose this person. You chose to give your life and efforts to this person. What were you attracted to? And to have an honest conversation about what preceded the current condition,

I think is where we get the bigger bang for the buck. Man, that's so funny. You can give an example. I was having that conversation with a friend the other day about their exes. And it always kind of rubs me the wrong way when I hear people talk about their exes in a negative way because I'm like, there must have been something good about them you chose them that's right and you chose to overlook some other things yeah or maybe you stayed on the surface and then you know there's a cost to staying on the surface you don't get down into the rich good stuff if you will

yeah there's a book there's a seminal book and Kathy Cram was the author and it's mentoring at work. And so that might be a resource that folks could take a look at because mentoring at work is a really important thing. And as we get to know people, we get to know all of them or whatever parts they share with us. And as relationships change, it's really important. So to be a good mentor, you will honor that transition and not everybody is a good mentor they might be extraordinary with x's and o's strategy and you know tactics but not have the mentorship personal relationship so gary de blasio my mentor at one point he said for a long time so it was first was mentorship like i i didn't know what was up and he was helping guide and the way he was guiding was pointing back to the answers that I already held and

understood. So he was not like the holder of wisdom and insight and I just needed to be around him a little bit more. He would hold up a mirror and say, well, you tell me. So there was, that was a phase. The second phase was like, um like how excited he was when I was applying those things that we worked on earlier. A third phase was he was there for me when I was really struggling. And so we went back almost to first phase, right? But it was now new because he had seen and I had seen some capabilities of mine expressed. And so that third phase was fundamentally different than the first phase,

even though it might have looked the same from somebody else. And then the next phase was, we are peers. You know, and he's like, Mike, thank you. You know, like, I see us as peers.

And it was like this, we're both crying, you know, like amazing life arc from mentor to mentee to two peers i still don't quite feel like a peer to him yeah but the honoring that um the honoring of that is really cool that's really that's really that's gangster because i've never heard of it done that way by someone that was in quote unquote a leadership or a mentor sort of a role because usually the people i've come across that i look up to even if you do equal or surpass them they still that energy they give off is usually still like you're on you're kind of under me

still you know but so is that is that show up in the martial arts, student and master? I mean, you're trying to get me in trouble here. Yes. Yeah. I find that really interesting, Mike, because in a certain sect of the martial arts that I do. Jiu-jitsu. Yes, jiu-jitsu. Look at me trying to dance around it.

Thank you, Mike, jiu-jitsu. It's a small to dance around it. Thank you, Mike. Jiu-jitsu. It's a small community. But we're doing it. It's rare to find a leader or someone you look up to embody that. It just is. I think we like to talk about it more than we like to actually be it. We like to watch it in kung fu movies and and you know fantastical ways but rarely have i come across that individual that really embodies that and if they do whatever they call the spirit of bushido whatever it's an amazing thing because usually they are they fake it they mask it and then you see the real them and you're like oh man you're not you're not like you're a master of the craft not necessarily master of self you put those two together you get those transformative people in their lives my son has a second degree

in um taekwondo yeah and his his grandmaster is like amazing in this one one practice that he has amazing in many ways but this one just speaks volumes and maybe this is something that you've seen as well so i think he's like an eighth den or seventh den or like seven degree black belt something like that like i don't know exactly what it is but he wears his black he wears his black belt um and it's completely faded that it looks white yeah and that was the intention that he every day he wears it and it's gone white and he's not reaching into the bag to have the new shiny black one. And I don't know if this is a common practice, but the way he talks about it and explained it to my son,

you could just see my son be like, right. It's not about the belt. It's about being a beginner. And is that a common practice in many arts? It's supposed to be. I stress that it's supposed to be. But oftentimes, it's a rarity to find that. It just is.

I think man's ego just, it takes over at some point, which I find really fascinating because I look around and I'm like, man, have we lost the principles and we lost our way? Aren't we supposed to take it back to the whole humility thing and wear your belt until it becomes a white belt and don't brag about being a black belt

or don't be aggressive or all these things. But they find, and maybe I'm being too judgmental, Mike, going back to Anonymous' question. Well, you're a black belt. Like, how do you wear yours? I mean, I would like to believe I'm as humble as they come. So when you have a young lion coming in and blue belt and he's like, you want to roll? Yeah, I'm ready.

You ready for me? I'm easy. I'm easy. I don't go hard with you until you go hard with me. What about brown belt? And he's like, he's got you a little bit of a couple jams here and there. I still don't. I still don't.

No, he's coming hard. I'll ramp it up a little bit. You'll ramp it up? I'll ramp it up a little bit. And he's got a a little bit of a couple jams here and there. I still don't. I still don't. No, he's coming hard. I'll ramp it up a little bit. You'll ramp it up? I'll ramp it up a little bit. And he's got a chip on his shoulder. And he's like, O'Neal. Master O'Neal nothing. Well, here's the thing.

I'm looking for a button. I can't find one. You found it. You already found it. I'm about to deliver right now. You push me. Here it go. Here it go.

I was told by someone close to me that what I like to do, I think I said this to you before, I like to sit in the corner and play the mouse role and play the mouse. But I'm thinking in my head like, mess with me, mess with me, say something to me, please say something to me please say try me please try me yeah i never viewed myself as that person i still don't but this person says that this is how i am the way and i talked to a therapist about this and my therapist told me that he thought that

it was a brilliant thing for me to create this alter ego to protect the innocent bunny rabbit inside of me. I'm really a bunny rabbit, right? He was like, I think it's brilliant that you have this because then you can reach for it and activate it and it can take the place of the rabbit, protect you, chop up who you need to chop up, and you can go back to being a bunny rabbit. I think all men and women need to have that inside of them in order to be their true selves. I want to, maybe this is just completely twisted logic, but in order to be 100% unadulterated, lighthearted, funny, loving, caring, jovial O'Neal, I need to have that thing inside of me that can defend me. I need to have it.

I need it to be armed with a machete. I need it to be sitting in a chair saying, hey, call on me when you need it. I have found that because I have that, I'm happy, jovial O'Neal. I can live my life freely and express myself like I want to express myself. I think you're right on the money. Oh. Right. Yeah. You did not need my approval, please.

I thought I was going to get ate up right there. And even if I didn't agree, your methodology is your methodology. Like your path is your path. And I never lived one day in anybody's shoes but mine. I resonate with that for me. Whether science holds up that or not is a different story. And I wouldn't even know where to go to point to to know if there's research around what we're talking about. There's part, there's a, obviously, the science of psychology is a beautiful science. It's complicated because it's invisible.

And there's an art of life. There's a science of psychology and there's an art to life. There's an art to psychology. Most people operate only in art and you might say, well, the highest art or the highest form of life is art, but you need to know the foundations. You need to know the basic colors, how canvases get stretched too much, too little, what happens when you bleed a couple of colors together. Like you need to know the foundations to be able to break foundation. You need to know structure to break structure. And so that's, to me, that's science.

And what we're talking about is the art of it. And I love every bit of what you just said. That was a great example. That was a great example. Well done. Well done. Well, anonymous hope you got something out of that. All right, let's go to the next.

All right, the next one is from Steve. Dr. Mike, like many of your listeners, I am a full-time professional who has a demanding job that requires a lot of my time and energy. Early on in my career, I really enjoyed my work and was fueled by the environment and the challenge. However, over time, I'm enjoying my work less and less, and I'm at the point where it feels more draining than it feels productive. I know I'm not my best self at work or at home. I'm yearning to make a change. But as a husband, father, and homeowner, the proverbial quit your job and follow your passion track doesn't feel like a realistic option. I know I'm not alone in this mindset. What's your best advice for someone like me to dial in on positive life or career changes

without having to jump off the quit your job cliff? Thanks in advance. I'm a longtime listener and fan, and I appreciate the work that you do and your team's doing. Cool. I mean, really thoughtful. There's a, I've talked about the idea of a passion trap that I think is in the lexicon, which is I could live the good life if I could just play guitar every day.

If I could play guitar and be a professional guitar player, or this thing that I love doing, painting or guitar playing or whatever. I love it so much. That's where I have passion. I need to do that all day long or as a, as a primary. I think that that's the easy path. When something naturally brings you some passion or some buoyancy or some electricity in your life. Awesome. Market. It's cool. That's great. Do that as much as you possibly can. But the point is not to do that only, is to understand the mechanics that are naturally embedded in that environment or that craft that bring that part of you forward. And if you can now figure out and deconstruct that and bring it to a new environment, a new task, whether it's at work or something else being of service in some other way, then you're living passion across thing that you do, but how you want to feel.

And the thing that you're doing right now, if you could bring those feelings into it, that just might be what the good life is. So according to Harvard, the 80-year study, connection, I love relationships, and purpose are the two big findings. The people that live the good life have a sense of connectiveness amongst people. They have a good relationship, at least with one other person, and their purpose is very clear.

So sometimes when our purpose is clear, we'll do the hard, difficult work, the job that feels grubby. But that doesn't mean that we are loveless at work. That doesn't mean that we're necessarily going to have passion in it. But if we can do what I was talking about earlier is deconstruct how passion feels and bring those feelings, those thoughts into the work environment, you're winning because that job might be in purpose or in service of a greater purpose.

And it's the way that you're going to put money on the table right or right on the table money in the bank right now is that job. And the opportunity is not just to do the work and grind and come home and play your passion later or be fatigued enough not to have any passion but to infuse your work with the way that you want to feel. That comes from having a disciplined way of thinking. So if you can think in a disciplined way that helps elicit and bring forward those emotions that are associated with passion, go back to it like,

that's what winning really is about for me. And so I'm less interested at this phase of changing jobs. You can do that. That might be absolutely the right pick. I don't know. More interested in what is your responsibility to create the type of life that you want to have from the inside out. Yes, it is easier when the external world supports those feelings and ways of thinking. That's what we try to do in elite sport is create that environment for people to think well and in a disciplined way so that they have the passion to do the thing long enough

in a hard enough circumstance that they can continue to grow. But there's usually two to three coaches for six athletes to help with that way of thinking and behaving. And the rest of us are kind of left to the wild. So this is not easy to do. What I'm suggesting is to be responsible for your own happiness, to be responsible for your own passion, independent of the external conditions. Start with Viktor Frankl. Go back to the source. Not the source, one source. Man's Search for Meaning was the title of a game-changing book. And he built on the back of his experience in the concentration camps a therapeutic approach that brings forward the best of what we have independent of the environments that we're living in. So it's possible. It is not easy to do, but I think it is the richest path forward for all of us.

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Oh, this is probably the most mind-bending one yet for me. How so? Because I think about what you just said about like how, you know, bringing forth the best work you can while in that situation and bringing that sort of a fervor and zest in this situation

that you view as bad, right? And then I think, I don't know if I wanna, this might be a bad example to use. I don't know if I wanna use it. I'm gonna use another example. When I first moved- I'm way more interested in the first one at this point. You do? Okay, so I kind of thought when you were talking,

I thought about the movie, "'Life is Good' with Roberto Benigni. Okay. And, you know, they're in concentration camps, and he's making light of the situation to entertain this kid. And a beautiful movie. And obviously he ends up dying. Down to that scene where he was marching behind the building,

and the kid was watching him march behind the building to get executed. He did it in a playful toy soldier way because it was important to him to, to his last minute to deliver some joy to this kid and not be yelling and screaming as he's going to get executed. I thought that was so amazing. And it touched everyone

because he was able to keep this amazing attitude in what probably one of the worst situations ever in human history i love where you're taking this really oh this is a dark path no no i love where you're taking this like if it was if that was really what he was honestly wanting to give to awesome if he was playing a role and he he was to feel things, probably not awesome. But I love the generative giving spirit of that and the clarity of who I want to be at the moment of my death. This is one of the reasons I studied the samurais for that one reason is that I'm going to die. I'm going to die a noble, and I want to die a noble death. At the moment that I die,

how do I want to be in that moment? Pick the virtue that you want to embody. Well, you better train. You better train that. Because you know what most brains and human psychology will do in that moment? Panic. Run. Absolutely fall into a thousand pieces in that moment when you know you're going to die.

But they say, no, no, no, we're going to train our minds to be disciplined, to be about the virtues that matter most to us i whether it's real or not because i didn't live during that time and there's a little bit of you know raised eyebrow about some of the romance that we have about the samurai culture that there's there's a dark side to it and there's a gray side to it and you know but that that point of what you're talking about and the samurai, I think they're great examples. Yeah. And was there a second part of the story for you?

No, I mean, he was executed and whatnot. This kid survived and whatnot. I mean, the message I got from it was bringing that joy. You just said it, bringing that joy into whatever circumstances you think is dark. Now, obviously, a bad job and that situation are two different complete situations, but it made me just think about that because I'm like, and maybe this is an issue that I have that I, a wall that I run into all the time. If I'm in a bleak situation and I don't like that circumstance, it's very difficult for me to adopt a positive attitude. It's very difficult for me to

adopt. All I think about is breaking out. And so let me go to my- And that might be the right call. I need to know that I'm working towards a compelling future. Okay. So if this is the right vehicle and I just don't have the right vibe in it, then that's my responsibility. If this is the wrong vehicle in service of my larger purpose and I'm not feeling good now, I got to, I got to create some changes, you know, from the external, but then what's okay. But what's going to happen is if I find a seemingly more optimal, um, job, but I don't have the ability to bring out the best of me

in that, in any situation now, it's not, maybe it's a little bit easier, but my default is to find the negative that, that, that, that, da, da, da. Unlike the movie, unlike the samurai, unlike Viktor Frankl. So what I would say is like, it's an opportunity right now is to figure out how you want to live. Do it in spite of the challenging external conditions.

So I'm counterculture. I know you are as well. So that's my counter chip. That's my counterculture attitude coming out. Like I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for my teammate. And listen, we're going to, y'all are miserable. We're going to have more fun than you've ever imagined.

So that's the counter approach. And then I work, I work like a hustle side gig to be able to figure out what my next move is. So I'm saving, I'm saving, I'm saving, I'm getting my war chips in place, and then I'm going to make a move. And so I'm using whatever environment that I'm in now to figure out how to bring the best of me forward.

If it's not in service of my greater purpose and I want to make a move, I'm going to make the move, I'm going to take a risk, but it's not going to be a stupid risk. It's not going to be an uncalculated risk. I need some chips to be able to weather the you know, the rapids of that change. Yeah.

Gotcha. I see. I mean, well, you answered my question for me then. Yeah. That's good. Okay. I was like, all right. Sorry.

No, no, that was great. Okay. That was great. All right. This question is from Brad. I hope no one saw that. No one saw that, right? That moment of weakness in me.

From Brad. I hope no one saw that. No one saw that, right? That moment of weakness in me. It's from Brad. Many of the conversations with people on the path to mastery highlight the dark side, the sacrifice, the struggle. Wait, wait, I got to interrupt. It's not the path to mastery. It's the path of. That's a fundamental difference. So it's not, if I'm on this path one day later, I'm going to be a master. It's the path of mastery, which is, is the goal to be on the path, not, not, not to have a, be on the path. So that one day later, so just to course, correct, just that slight nuance, which to me makes all the, all the difference in the world. I have a question about that after I finish. Okay, cool. Okay. So the path to mastery, which should be of mastery, Brad, come on, Brad, highlight the dark side, the sacrifice, the struggle, the time commitment, potentially falling short in personal relationships. Do you think it's possible to achieve success as an entrepreneur athlete or employee without the dark side of this

path to mastery the struggle i have is with a desire to excel in work and my business and also wanting my personal relationships to flourish i see far too many ceos and leaders with divorces and struggling family lives who have achieved much worldly success and lost their families in the process. Thank you for all the work you do with AMAs. Oh, cool. I'm having a hard time. I'm feeling the question, but I'm having a hard time knowing what the actual question is. Could you find the simple question to answer? I think what Brad wants is for you to explain to him how to balance achieving all the things that you want in this world and still have your family and work life and not sacrifice these things. I probably can't answer it. It makes me think of something that happened a long time.

Well, what a friend of mine told me a long time ago. I'm not going to name names, but he and a few other young guys worked for a very wealthy man in Los Angeles. And he said this wealthy man, billionaire, pulled them in a room and said to them, I need all of you to decide how much is enough. And obviously they were all confused. What are you talking about? He's like, I need all of you, you four to decide how much is enough, how much before you go live your life, how much before you explore the world, be happy and just do the things that you want to do, how much, how much money? And then he used himself as an example. And he said, you know, I'm a billionaire, but my relationships with my kids are floundering. I've had many divorces.

People want things from me. And then he gave an example of a friend of his that he said it was worth two or $3 million, got with a financial planner, planned the whole thing out, travels with his kids, doesn't live beyond his means. At the time when my friend told me this story, I thought it was moving, I thought it was dope. So I would retell it to other people, right? To make it sound all profound and whatnot. Every single person that I told that said the same thing to me.

Nah, man, if I get to 10, I'm trying to get to 20. If I get to 20, I'm trying to get to 30. Why would I stop? Everybody, almost to the point where I thought I was being trolled. No one even lied to me to sound like they were, to even make the impression like they were just this higher thought individual that, oh, money is not everything, the Bob Marley, Bruce Lee approach. If you chase numbers, you'll be chasing them for your whole life. Numbers are infinite.

No one held back. Everyone was candid and honest, and they all said they would go after more power and more money. Kind of riches you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have them type of riches. Yeah, yeah.

Beautiful. But no one in the real world I've come across, everyone's like, if I get five, why not shoot for 10? I'm not actually bothered by five to 10. Like there's a way you can thread the needle where you are great to all of the relationships that you hold. There is a way to do it. And there can be, the early pursuit of my career was incredibly selfish.

That's why I said, I don craft than I was into my relationship. And so it almost cost me dearly, evidenced by your and my conversation with Lisa, my wife. So I think, though, it's not about the number. And I don't know if you could kick me out of my purpose. If the purpose is $5 million, $10 million, $20 million, whatever, that's what that question is really wrestling. What is enough money for you to live your good life? I don't think it's set up correctly.

I do respect what that business leader that you're talking about is trying to get after is like, look, don't lose yourself in the pursuit of money. And once you have a certain amount, what is that certain amount that is good enough for the life that you want to live? I think that the question is not set up correctly, which is how do you want to live in pursuit of the, your good life? How important are relationships? How important is money? How important is status? How important is security? How important is whatever. And then like, be honest with that. And then make sure that like, if you're in a relationship and that partner is like,

no, look, I want, I don't, I understand we're trying a relationship and that partner is like, no, look, I understand. We're trying to make money. This is not a relationship I want to be in. But as long as they understand, then it's an honest relationship. So I would flip it on its head. And not about when are you going to get out, but when are you going to start being in and completely in, in the way that you're doing an honest relationship with your pursuit of money or purpose or a relationship or whatever the, the, the higher, the bigger

thing than you is. That's the question I want to answer. When are you going to be all in and not play the shell game and not try to keep people at bay? Not, that's not the right one keep people um passively engaged in your life because you selfishly want something else the last part of this question brad asked when he was like he sees far too many ceos and leaders with divorces and struggling families that have cheat of achieved worldly success and lost their families in the process.

This is going to sound really negative. So let me try to not make it sound negative. It's almost like one of those, you know, when I was little and I saw my father do things that my father did that I didn't agree with, I always said to myself like i would i'll never i'll never be like my father i'll never do the things that he he did i won't fall into those same holes and as i became an adult i fell into those holes right and then i started to question myself and ask man am i just like am i just like this person? Am I doomed to, you know, is this, is this a yoke that I just can't break? Do you look like your dad?

I used to, but not anymore. Not at all. Not at all. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Keep going. Sorry. Yeah. Do I look like him? It's a weird thing when you, you, your dad has some behavior, some observed behaviors that are unflattering. Yeah, that are scary, that are hurtful. And when you look in the mirror, you see that man.

Yeah. And that's a very complicated thing for people to go through. Extremely. Yeah. Extremely. Because you literally see it in the mirror. Yes. And it can bring forward the pain and the hurt of the behaviors that you're saying, I'll never.

So that can get really complicated. And the yoke word is a really cool word. Especially if I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't do it. So when I think about Brad's question, and he says that, because it sounds like he wants to avoid that pitfall too. But then when you think of so many CEOs that are successful and have gained all these worldly things, if we're doing, I'm making a broad statement here, but if we're looking at numbers and whatnot, percentage wise, the majority probably are suffering from what Brad is talking about. And you don't see many examples of people

that are rich, successful, really nice people, great. They're there. They're there. They are there. Yeah, 100%. And those are the ones I like to partner with. Yeah. I don't want to do business with the ones that are sheep and wolves clothing, that are only pursuing the external riches and fame and power and attention at the cost of other stuff. The ones that are in service of purpose,

and they're really good at what they do, and they bring the best out of others, pay them. Let them like that is rare and special when you're really good at what you do. You're in service of something bigger than you and you can mobilize a group of people to feel great about themselves in service of that purpose. There's business there. There's mission there. And if money is part of that great who cares whatever that currency is whether it's money or whatever is a valuable to that person that's a very special

set of skills and and i don't think we need to hide that money's not okay it's cool like be aligned with who you want to be and be clear about that The most dangerous people are when they're working in the shadows, when they are the sheep's wool clothing, back to that idea. Those are the dangerous people. But if you're transactional, just let me know. Just be straight up. That's fine. No problems. Can I ask you a question? Last question on this. Yeah.

Is that sort of a rites of passage type of thing? Like if you're climbing up economically and financially, you're building your way into becoming a leader, a leader of men and women and whatnot. Is that a door that you absolutely have to walk through where you might have a challenging time with your family, gaining things? Like you have to go through this fire? That's a good question. I think I didn't know a better way because i didn't have a better model and i didn't have people that showed me what that could be so as an n of one a number of one meaning me as an individual it was the only way i knew but i'm i think if i'm going to make mistakes with my son, I hope I make different mistakes than my dad made and his dad made. And so I don't know my

great grandfather. So, um, but he made mistakes too. So I just want to make generationally different mistakes. And one of the mistakes that I hope I'll be better at is like, look, what is your purpose? Bring the bet? Know how to be your very best. Work your ass off to be great at a craft, at something that you can express. And then figure out how to mobilize the right level of resources to bring that purpose, hopefully, into a reality. And that sometimes is people's noses pointing in the same direction with you because they feel great being around you. They love the purpose and they have a respect and regard for the talent that you bring to that purpose. That doesn't, to me, sound like there's

a rite of passage, like some sort of fire gauntlet that we have to get through to get to that. I think you can do that right out of the gates. And I think that this next generation coming up is going to be better at it. I'm concerned about some of the behaviors of some of the generations, but I do think this next, is it the alpha generation? I think they're doing this better than at least my generation did. Yeah. I love that term, making different mistakes. Yeah. Let's make different ones. Yeah. I love that term, making different mistakes. Yeah. Let's make different ones. Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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This question is from Rafe. I'm from Germany and for many years I've been learning from your conversations, trying to make use of what I've learned to improve in all aspects of life. My son is an ambitious young golfer. Unfortunately, the coaching environment where he plays and practices is very outcome-orientated, right? Scores, handicaps, et cetera. He also sets himself a scoring and handicap goal for each year. Based on your thinking, I'd like him to have a process-oriented goals.

In your last Best Of podcast, Joanne P. McCauley talked about focusing her coaching on effort, intensity, and focus. I love this approach and would like to shift my son's targets for the next session towards effort, intensity, and focus. But I find it hard to make it tangible or measurable. Any ideas or advice on how to set goals on process would be highly appreciated. Cool question. At the Seattle Seahawks, Coach Carroll is an extraordinary coach. He's the head coach of the NFL team.

And one of the things that I absolutely love that he did is that once a year, at one point in time every year, we talked about winning. And that was the only time. is being the outcome and so and it was after three weeks of a real investment into the culture the best practices the the style the feeling that it would we were working to elicit inside the building and on the field um and at the end it was always a kind of a throwaway comment which is like man if we can do what we just talked about over the last three weeks if we can do that consistently we just might win the whole thing the last time we talked about winning so the adults in the room had to have a discipline to focus on the immediacy of this moment and working to be masterful in this moment, to be one's very best in this moment.

Effort, intensity, focus are all controllables. They're all things that are immediately available right now. You and I, I can dial up my intensity or dial it down if I need to, if I have the right skills. I can dial in my focus. I can refocus so I can be more present more often. And when those things happen with high effort over time, you end up having the right broth for the championship soup. That was a stretch of a metaphor, but it kind of worked.

And so it does take the adults in the room to have a discipline to focus on right now and be great right now. And if the adults in the room leave it up to just the outcome, the outcome is completely uncontrollable. So we put the athlete or ourselves in a position where we are trying to manipulate or leverage or dictate something that we cannot control. By definition, part of us is out of control. That's a deleveraged position. I do not want to be in a deleveraged position in my life. I want to be a control freak. I want to control the things that I have the potential to master and to do that in an uncommon way. I'm not trying to control anything that I cannot control. And that's what a control freak typically is labeled. Like I'm trying to control you or

something else or whatever. All of that needs to fade away. It's just noise. The commitment to be pure in your intensity, your effort, your focus. Those are the, again, I'll use the broth. That's the broth for mastery. That is, that's all we would pay attention to. And specifically coach Carol talked about always competing. And so that was the cultural bell that was being rung. And the way that that looked when we were great was high effort, great effort, great enthusiasm, great toughness, and playing smart. So making good decisions. If you get that stuff right, winning will take care of itself. And it sounds so trite, but you can't control it. So why not work on mastering the things that are in your control?

How do you measure it? Different question. It's usually subjective. That was a good one. Usually subjective. O'Neal, how was your effort today? In terms of? Right.

I was being rhetorical. I love that you made it literal. Yeah, that's so good. You got me on skates all the time. I don't know. Oh, my God. yeah that's so good yeah you got you got me on skates all the time i don't know as you were talking i'm like how is he gonna make this about me it's coming it's coming it's coming no so like how like for me how was my effort today yeah it's pretty good you know i know what high strain feels like i did pretty good today how's my focus yeah i was locked in how was my attitude that's a controllable thing. Yeah, it was good. How was my self-talk? Yeah, I backed myself. Like I was a good coach to myself today.

How was my intensity levels? Yeah, I found the pocket. Like I was in a pocket. There was a moment in something I did earlier where I could feel my body heat up and I had extra energy. And so go back to the skills, breathe, back yourself, breathe, back yourself. And I found the slipstream. So we wanna help our young athletes know what those controllables are, the ones I just listed are certainly the important ones,

and then subjectively have an honest review of them. And sometimes we need somebody outside of us to say, do a one to 10 scale. And there's a great research on the rate of perceived exertion, RPE. And it's used in most clubs, most professional clubs. We ask the athlete, what was your RPE? And then we measure that against some objective variables.

How much did you actually run? What was your volume? did your gps say and we map that against sleep your rpe your mood your level of soreness and the objective data so that that would be four or five key ingredients that a sports scientist would want to look at rate of perceived exertion i'm going to get to my point here is a subjective rating so if i'm a father trying to help my son, sometimes I need to help him calibrate. Say I ask him what his exertion or effort was today, and he goes, oh, dad, you saw, that was a 10. Son, hold on a minute,

we need to calibrate. I think that that was a six. Dad, no way. What do you mean? Well, okay, let's break it apart. And then you look for moments to reinforce what high strain, high effort, high exertion is. So you know when you were da-da-da-da-da? That was definitely it. Like I was watching that like, oh my, wow. You know when, and then you pull out another moment, that looked like a half step to me this is why

we use film to capture it and so you could point to it there's some evidence if you will tape doesn't lie and and and if you don't have the film or tape then you say i think that that was a moment that was more of like a four and that's why i downgraded the effort say either way good let's keep calibrating nice job today today. I love watching you play, son. It's really fun. Oh, okay. So let me try to simplify this for myself. Correct me if I'm wrong here. You know what this is code for? What? Mike, that was way too complicated. I'm going to help you out, Mike. I'm going to help you right

now. I'm trying to help myself out. I think I understood it. And I think I'm about to give you a brilliant analogy before it could be terrible so here it goes well let me ask the question first before i give this analogy is there your rate of perceived exertion or you mean physically or effort wise right so exertion is there a level i give or how much i give so is there is there a point where you could give too much? Like you could be going too hard, too much physical exertion, and it can affect your play, your performance? Okay, no, I'm talking about practice right now. Right, okay.

Yeah, so yes, one of the great mistakes on the field, whatever the field of play is for you, whether it's a boardroom or athletic room or athletic pitch, is trying too hard. Okay. This is, we're talking about practice. Practice. We're talking about practice here,

which is how hard did I go in training in the weight room or how hard did I go on the field or the combination of both if it's an all up? What was my rate of perceived? That's the subjective piece, exertion. And we want to know what the athlete thinks he or she did. We want to know. Oftentimes, has the athlete over-assumed that they think they were going to all out and they were going under? That's a good question. I don't know specifically on that um there would be sports scientists that would have better data on that or research on that i do know that athletes writ large tend to overestimate

their skills and abilities so they tend to like think they're better than they actually are i don't know how that shows up in rpe so i just know the psychology there um let me just think anecdotally like at the seahawks we're doing a bunch of RPE stuff. Shout out to Dean Riddle. We were, I think it was, I think there were, I don't know. There was like a lot of junk data that would come in. There's a lot of calibration education that need to happen. And I actually don't know.

Because I find this whole, I find this fascinating because I think about the athletes or the performers or just people in general, when I watch, there's some people that I watch that seem like they're in a zone, like there is no effort. There is, but things just fall into place or they throw the ball a certain distance or they're running and it doesn't look like they're trying at all. Or when you watch Luka Doncic play basketball, he's not athletic like most NBA players, right?

But he controls the game and he makes the game work for him. And when you were talking, that question was just like bulging out of my head. Like, okay, those people who don't look like

they're putting any effort in at all, but they can control the outcome and they sort of- No, they can't control the outcome. Not the outcome, not the outcome, but they sort of manipulate, like they can't control the outcome. Not the outcome, not the outcome, but they sort of manipulate, like they're like Geppetto. Yeah, right.

They're controlling Pinocchio. The game is Pinocchio. Yeah, the game is Pinocchio. I'm following you. But explain that to me, if you don't mind. Like, is it like a Luca, would you say that his level of exertion, perceived exertion is just different

from Giannis Antet the Tocompo? Yeah, that's a good question. Flow state, by definition, is like it's an effortless effort. It's a very rare space that people are in 15%, 20% of the time. Athletes report being in the zone, the flow state. So let's say that we're talking, we were asking an athlete, your rate of perceived exertion. And he puts a zero and what I was in flow, all practice, like that was the easiest practice.

That was the best I've ever been like, that would make some sense. But for the most part, let's say it's 80% of the time we're straining. We're working, we're working to get out of a critical, negative, tight, small, over-trying state and get into something that is more positive, productive, let go, be big, let it rip, you know, mindset. And so 80% of the time we're working under the surface, that 15, 10, 20% of the time, it's actually like everything's butter. It's amazing. Got you.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, cool. This was great. This was... Did we go somewhere, O'Neal? We went somewhere.

Did we do something? We did something. I thought maybe we were gonna, it was gonna be like personal based on the last one, but it didn't actually travel that way. Yeah. But you gave permission. So that was fun.

I mean, you're slowly breaking my walls down. Yeah. You're breaking my walls down. So, I mean, and I learned something every episode, like literally every episode. What was one thing today that you said, oh, that's cool? I love the example that you gave about, gosh, hold on. Hold on, give me a second. I learned one thing.

What was it? What was that one thing? No, when you gave the example, oh, when you brought that whole Roberto Benigni. You brought Roberto up. I know, but you said something that conjured that. You said, you said something that conjured. You oftentimes say things. What'd you learn today?

You know that thing that I talked about, Roberto? I learned that what i said was really smart yeah you introduced something that i cannot remember but that thing that i said was really good watch how i flip this on you yeah go ahead she's a testament to you yeah you've given me this i'm starting hold on i'm starting to sweat i'm not sure what's gonna happen now this is great wait wait there was i thought that you were gonna i was trying to bail out oh you were trying to bail out okay good yeah just you hold me so accountable this is what i've learned i've learned accountability that's good yeah you hold me accountable i love

it that's perfect yeah great all right uh i will tell you one thing i learned um was like the uh you invited it was the benigni example you invited the the power of imagination and the place that storytellers and the brilliant minds of those that have tapped into the power of imagination that bring it forward in a way that i or others can't see i love that high art and when that like that high art where i get transfixed and I see a different part of humanity based on a story that never really happened, could have happened, maybe not,

but it came from somewhere that was deep in the human experience and then expressed in high art where the rest of us can see ourselves in it. That type of mastery is so compelling. So thank you for bringing that forward. Welcome Dr. Mike. Thank you. Thank you. I try, you for bringing that forward. Welcome, Dr. Mike. Thank you. Thank you.

I try. You know, I try. I love that high art, that inspirational art. I love that. Yeah. We need more of that in this world. We definitely need more of that.

Yeah. So appreciate you. Appreciate you too. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast

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