Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Matt Brady, Retired U.S. Army Major

Episode Date: February 6, 2019

This week’s conversation is with retired U.S. Army Major Matt Brady.Matt is a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point where he was ranked #1 of 940 cadets in leadership for 7 consecutive semesters and graduated in the top 5% of his class overall.While serving in the Army on active duty, Matt flew over 2,000 hours in the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior (Reconnaissance), MH- 47D, and MH-47G Chinook helicopters (Army Special Operations).A seasoned combat veteran, he has deployed 12 times to both Iraq and Afghanistan and commanded forces during multiple high stakes/pressure conflicts including the 3rd Infantry Division charge to Baghdad in 2003 and “Operation REDWING,” the tragic SEAL mission depicted in the movie “Lone Survivor.”His awards include the Air Medal for combat Valor in both Iraq and Afghanistan and the Bronze Star Medal.Matt retired from the U.S. Army in late 2016 after two decades of service to the Nation.There is so much to unpack in this conversation.I’m sure many of you are familiar with the “Lone Survivor” story but for those who aren’t, definitely take a moment and look up it.While Matt was fortunate enough to survive that mission, the decisions he faced that day lived with him for years afterwards.And that’s a focal point of this conversation.What was his thought process like in an incredibly hostile situation? One that was near impossible to prepare for?How did he cope with those decisions after the fact and how did it impact his life?You may rethink what you deem as a “difficult decision” and the things that are worth “dwelling on” after listening to this conversation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. So I'm thinking, okay, you know, I've got, I've got a brand new wife, brand new child at home. Um, these other guys on this helicopter who I've been getting to know, you know, intimately over the last few months, they've all got families too. This could potentially be a one-way ticket. And so we talk about that very, very briefly, not to dwell on it. Cause then people won't go, but we, I decide, okay, this is, you know,

we got to do this right now. We've got to launch. all right welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm michael gervais and by trade and training a sport and performance psychologist as well as a co-founder of compete to create and the whole idea behind these conversations behind this podcast is to learn from people who are committed to the path of mastery. We want to understand their psychological framework. How do they make sense of themselves? How do they organize their internal life as well as their external world to line their arrows up in a particular direction to pursue mastery? And then we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of,

from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness

that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein.

I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much.

I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day?

There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way,

is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with retired U.S. Army Major

Matt Brady. And Matt is a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point World Class, where he was ranked number one of 940 cadets in leadership for seven consecutive semesters. And then he went on to graduate in the top 5% of his class. So that speaks something to the way that he organizes his craft and the preparation for his craft. Matt deployed 12 times to both Iraq and Afghanistan and commanded forces during multiple high stakes and pressure conflicts, including the 3rd Infantry Division Charge into Baghdad back in 2003, and then Operation Red Wing. And that was the really intense SEAL mission depicted in the movie Lone Survivor. And his awards include the Air Medal for Combat Valor in both Iraq and Afghanistan and the Bronze Star Medal. And Matt retired from the U.S. Army in late 2016 after two decades of service to the United States. And there's so much to unpack in this conversation.

It is textured. it is rich. And I'm sure many of you are familiar with the lone survivor story, but if you're not, just take a quick moment and look into that. I mean, it's unbelievable. And so this conversation really has much to do with his decisions there. And while he was fortunate enough to survive that mission, the decisions that he made and he was fortunate enough to survive that mission, the decisions that he made and he was faced with and the experience that he had, the combination of that has lived with him forever. And that is the focal point of this conversation. What is it like? How do we prepare? And how do we adjust to situations that are incredibly challenging? And I don't know, I mean, this is near impossible to prepare for what he experienced.

Like all of us, we have events in our lives that are near impossible to prepare for. So the preparation only gets us a certain way. And then that leap of faith to adjust to the unpredictable unfolding unknown, For some of us, it's like this crazy leap. And for others, it's like, okay, I'm going to take that next step because I prepared and I've trained myself to deal with the unpredictable unfolding unknown. And so this conversation really points back to philosophy. It points back to values. It points back to really clear understanding of who one is and who one wants to become. In this case, it's him. Now, as you're going through this conversation, you might just want to take a moment and put it into some context in your own life. What is

a or what are the difficult decisions that you've had to make in your own life? And then, you know, use that to bounce off this conversation. So while his story is rich, the whole point is to really re-anchor into your own life so that you can use this to pivot, to adjust, to grow. And one last note here is the first half of this conversation was in person and I was enjoying it so much. It was so rich. I was so enthralled in it. Both of us completely lost track of time. And so we had to finish the conversation on the phone.

So you'll notice the change in audio quality about halfway through. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Matt Brady. Matt, how are you? Doing good. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Yeah. It's my pleasure. That's really good. Okay. How'd you know, how'd you know that you wanted to be in the military to serve? Maybe it's the right way to say it for you, but how did you know? Yeah, I guess I took my, my grandfather and my father's example. Both of them had, um, really unique military stories. My grandfather was from England and he served during the Battle

of Britain. So if you recall from history, the Germans have this air offensive and they're bombing London. And my grandfather and my grandmother and my mom's a little girl at the time during this blitzkrieg on the city and he served in a unit called the home guard in london which was a ragtag militia no weapons no ammunition but my grandfather's job in this militia was to put on a pair of roller skates uh and take a hockey stick and with two or three buddies skate around town looking for downed german stop it stop it yeah this is your family history and tradition yeah this was my this is my grandfather's job and and uh if you can just imagine i can't imagine first of all skating

in a war zone but number two fighting once you find a person on roller skates. So you chose military over hockey? Yeah. And so he had that side. And then my dad, my dad was older than most. He was actually in World War II or most people's grandparents were in World War II. My dad served in the Pacific and left Watertown, Mass to make a life for himself and join the Navy and found himself off the shores of Iwo Jima in World War II. And so he's got fantastic stories. He would tell them. He wasn't shy about telling them.

And that's what really populated the airwaves in our home was these stories of adventure and sometimes sacrifice. But mostly they were really upbeat, fun stories to listen to. Give me an example of that because I can imagine military war stories being heavy. I can imagine being serious. I can imagine, but I don't imagine them being light. Yeah. So what does that mean?

Well, I mean, there was the roller skating example. My grandfather would often laugh about that. I mean, yeah, you got me laughing thinking about the image of roller skates, you know. But then there's part of that story that's left unsaid. Once he found a downed German, what did he do? Yeah, well, I mean, they they repped him up and and took them in to ask him questions. They were these were valuable sources of information. They wanted to find out what are your formations?

When do you come? What are your patterns? And so it was a bit of tactical interrogation there on the spot. But more importantly, it was get this guy to somewhere where we're going to make him feel comfortable enough to tell us what's going on so we can get to the bottom of this entire thing. Okay. Great framework. I mean, really great framework. I mean, really great framework. And I'm getting why being mission minded is important to you as in it was part of the, the threads of conversations in your family. Okay.

So something's bigger than our family and we will risk much for it. And it does. Okay. It's not adrenaline. It's not being cool. It's not right. It's not looking good. There's a mission that your family has been on for a long time. Yeah. I think it was a sense of duty as well. I think both men felt that, you know, this is something the country needs right now. This is something that my family needs. Um, and, and they felt kind of a calling to do it. Okay. And what were the conversations like in your house with your mom and dad? Um, around, around military service? Just in general, but yes, military as well. Wow. You know, it was really, uh, you know, my, my, my mom was, was from England, of course. And then my dad being, being, uh, a son of an Irish immigrant, we talked a lot about, uh, how I was

going to make my way in the world, how they made their way in the country once they got here. Um, and, and what it meant to be an American, really, that was a lot of what we talked about. Uh, and that was, that really kind of led to my motivation to try to get into West Point, which was really a bridge too far when it came to my academic background. Um, you know, it wasn't the strongest student in high school, but, you know, we talked about that in my house, you know, if, if you got into Westport, what that would mean to the family. So they actually had the image about West Point was out there.

Yeah, it was about 30 minutes away from our home where we grew up in upstate New York. Oh, wow. So we knew about it. We saw it routinely. And that was kind of the shining example on the hill. Like, hey, you know, son, if you can make it there, then you'll do your family proud. OK, so then talk about pressure. Yeah.

Right. Like the thought that if you could get to the top of the hill, you do our family proud, but if you can only get three quarters of the way up, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for trying son. I'm just guessing, but it wasn't that necessary looking at your facial structures. You're like, no, it wasn't that at all. Well, I mean, there was, uh, you know, they would have been fine no matter what I decided to do. Um, how did they convey that to you? Cause that's a very delicate, tricky line. I love you. I have high standards that I think that are possible for you. And, and I want to challenge you to make those standards. And there's an invitation to you going to West Point. It's not like you have to go here.

Right. It was an invitation that it sounds like they watered that seed for a long time. Yeah. I don't think it was expressly what they said. It was sort of this indirect approach. We'd go to football games there. We'd go to parades. We'd spend time just in that area to where I saw that institution on a regular basis, but it wasn't an explicit conversation around, you know, this is something we expect of you.

Okay. So in that way, it just sort of lingered in the back of my mind just from exposure. There was another aspect to this whole thing as well, and that's my other sibling, my brother, my older brother. We had a fairly idyllic upbringing, white picket fence, middle class. My brother, though, got fairly heavily into substance abuse and developed a serious drug problem. And he ended up fracturing in many ways what was an ideal family situation. And he ended up leaving home, running away from home. And that really hit my family hard.

Drug of choice was? Heroin was the ultimate, you know, the last final, you know, the hardest drug that he ever did. Okay. But there were certainly gateways to that. And do you have a sense looking back? Is he sober still on his journey of, of using still on, still on his journey? We don't, we don't keep in close contact.

Ooh. How's that? Oh, it's, you know, it's one of those things, you know. What does that mean? I'm not gonna let you off the hook here. No, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's complicated when you invest a lot of time and energy and love into somebody and you don't want to give up on them. But at the same time, you've got to, you've got to get on with your life, your family's life.

And then, you know, you remember a lot of the pain that was caused. And sometimes you don't want to go back to that. You don't want to remember that. And sometimes it's tough with feelings of resentment as well. I certainly harbor a lot of resentment for, you know, what happened with my family during that phase. Uh, but I think my attempt to compensate for the, for that pain caused and that damage was how can I achieve in ways that are going to undo what he did? Right. So you took on the role of, well, okay, you, let me just set the stage in my mind for you is ridiculously successful on paper. You've done some amazing things and I see you hesitating. And I know the, the humble way of

the special ops, I understand, like, but you've done some amazing things in your life. And if I'd love to say it was by design. Um, but the only thing I was looking at was, you know, getting the West point. If I can do that, you know, I will at least start to undo some damage. And that took me. And that was the damage for your family. Yeah. And you, so you took the role of the angel, the high performer, right? Right. So some people take the clown, some people take the, uh, the drug addict, not the drug addict, but the, um, um oh gosh there's like seven types archetypes i'm thinking of right now then all of them are blank except for the clown what does that say about me right but so there's a high achiever the clown there's the angel there is the uh the kind

of disruptive party angle partier yeah so he took that one a little bit was mom and dad did they create for your your, maybe an environment with too much pressure and somehow you navigated it in juxtapose or juxtapose to your, your brother. Uh, yeah, I was just simply trying to create a counterbalance. You were, yeah, there you go. Um, I really was, was trying to, uh, you know, restabilize what had been a stable situation. And by doing so, being accepted into an institution that represented a lot of what's good about America, especially coming from a family of immigrants that wanted to find a place in this country, wanted to belong, I thought this would be a great way to give them an American identity that they were looking for.

Why is West Point not as well known as Harvard and Princeton and the Ivies or Stanford? Why is that? It's one of the world leading institutions. Yeah. West Point produces one thing and that's army officers. Um, you know, and, and, and army soldiers and officers, you know, the army is a, is a tough life for a lot of folks, but it's a no frills life. It's, it's not glamorous. It's, it's oftentimes, um, physically and mentally, you know, difficult. And so the, the graduates don't often make everyday front pages like folks in Silicon Valley and

private sector or make billions of dollars that would put those colleges, those undergraduate institutions in a limelight. So in my mind, it's very much a it's an essential part of American academia, but it doesn't seek glory. It doesn't seek to highlight itself. And it just kind of flies under the radar. It's, I think, a humble place in that regard. You flew under radar for a long time. Yeah.

Literally. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, you know, I'd like to do before we get to some of your military experiences. I want to understand from you. I'd like to really understand about how you became mission minded and we're getting there a bit from the family structure and the storylines in the family and the subtlety. It sounds like that they would give you hints, give you images, but also probably some direct statements like the one you mentioned.

Like if you could get there, it'd be amazing. Right. But then there's also some subtly, the counterbalance is really cool because that indicates the authenticity that you experienced of some pain in your life and how that helps, um, solidify or catalyze. Is that a word? Yeah. I think it is. I think it is a word. Yeah. Some of the skills that you needed to refine and hone to go the distance. Okay. And then I also want to understand decision making. And I want to understand how you have clarity about how you operate in highly stressful environments that are principle based.

I want to get to that if we can. And that I also like to understand the emotional journey that you went on when you were not included in a mission that you really wanted to be included. And if there was any hesitation, you know, and if there was any regrets and, and, you know, I want to understand that story and we'll leave that as a mystery because it'll unfold as a conversation goes so as we start could you do if you had a book and you had x number of chapters of the book could you give the chapter headings to date of your life right now hard question wow yeah the chapter headings i think it would go in in this order. Um, you know, uh, typical American upbringing shattered by drugs, rebounding to a life at West point. Is that chapter two rebound? Yeah. Okay. Chapter three,

pleasing my family as a, as a, as a way of achieving happiness and satisfaction. I think chapter four would be loss and loss would encompass, you know, that support network of grandmother grandfather mother father i lost them within about a three-year period of each other uh to to cancer and a combination of cancer and old age and then so dealing with that loss and then trying to come to grips with, is that the right way to go about life? By expecting things in return, by placing my dependence on happiness on them and expecting that support in return. Is that how I need to, is that sustainable? You don't use drugs, do you? No. Yeah.

So what you just described is like a pretty intense codependent approach. My happiness depends on their happiness. Right. So I'm going to do whatever it takes exactly so that they're happy and i listen super noble but at the cost of one's own integrity and dignity it becomes complicated so it sounds like you went through some loss and we're talking about death is that correct okay so you and did you lose all of your elders yeah all of them within about three or four years of each other.

Oh, my God. Okay. And then that led to sort of a pulling back from relationships. I can't afford to invest in anyone now because I'll lose them and it'll hurt again. Right? survivor mission where I lost my, most of my platoon and my, my boss as well, that just compounded the situation where I thought to myself, I'm right. Right. I'm right. Cause when I, when I, when I love people, when I invest my time and energy and emotion, I lose them. And so my safest bet is isolation. And that was probably the lowest point. So that's chapter five. And that's probably a withdrawal. simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus.

From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is

formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about

how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Greys

in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell

it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay, my hair's standing up, you know, and usually it's because I'm in a, in a moment of awe and it's sort of celebratory, but my hair standing up right now, because the way that you're describing what you're describing is so painful. And I'm what I'm looking at you and you've got good clarity, but I know that your heart's thumping. Am I wrong about that? No, you're right. Yeah.

So how are you composing yourself in this moment? You know, I think by pure repetition of running through these events in my mind continuously, you know, and retelling myself this story and trying to explain these events to myself repeatedly. You know, I probably have developed an ability to present a mask in some way because it's still painful every time I talk about it. And what are the emotions that are happening right now for you? There's a ton. I mean, regret, uh, there's, there's, there's, there's joy and excitement about, about, you know, the, the people I was able to be, to, to, to know and love. Um,

there's anger, you know, at why some of them were taken from us too early. Um, there's tremendous guilt. That's probably the biggest one. Yeah. There really is tremendous guilt. There's different types of guilt, right? Survivor's guilt.

Why did I live? And then a huge feeling of urgency. Right? I often feel like I'm living on borrowed time. Um, and, and that I really shouldn't be here, but I'm here for a reason. And, and every second hour that goes by, I'm asking myself, am I using this right? Oh my God. I, I, we're not done. No, I was just going to say, yeah, we're not done in this conversation, but I could, I could stop this conversation right now for me selfishly and be like, right. I am, I am better today after hearing the way that you've captured what you've captured. And it's put me back on point, not that maybe it was off, but resharpening that thought that we only get 1,440

minutes. I'm sure you're clear with that thought. 1440, we only get it. How are we experiencing those 1440s? Right. And less than that when you're considering your sleep, right? 960. 960. That's's right that's right and then and then of those 960 there's it's thin sliced as well right out of 60 seconds okay okay thank you for reminding me that this only the only way that i know that we can live this sharp of a tone is through passing through pain and experiencing pain. Otherwise we take things for incredible granite. I'm thinking of my wife right now. I'm thinking of my son right now. Like, yes, we've been through incredible things. And I sometimes take the preciousness of the time

with my loved ones for granite. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so thank you for sharpening that, making my intimate relationships better from this conversation. We got one shot at it. We got one shot. Okay. How withdraw a loss to withdraw in isolation. Yeah. Chapter five. I, I, we could spend the next 20 hours talking about this. How do, how have you moved through that before we get to the six, seven, eight, nine, 10, whatever. Yeah. Are you still there or are you moving through it or have you moved through it in a way that feels productive? And I don't, I want to leave that question open. Well, you know, this is sort of a slow uphill climb from that point to now, you know, you think you're getting airspeed and altitude and then you drop down a couple of feet, you know, and, and I like to say it's this up into the right trajectory and everything's great now,

but that's not the way life is. Um, and you're constantly trying to, I'm constantly trying to get more altitude and more airspeed and I'm, I'm successful some of the time and I fail a lot of times. What gets in the way? Self-doubt. And how do you wrestle with self-doubt? It's a little, it's a little voice we have. Yeah, it is. It's just a little conversation we have. I wrestle with it a number of ways. And one way is my faith, which I've developed over the years because of these events.

What's the foundation? Christianity. And so my belief that God has got a larger plan, you know, for me and for my family. And that sometimes it's not evident to me that I rely on that every single day. So God is active. Oh yeah. Your philosophy of God is active. So there's passive and active, right?

So passive is like God set it in motion. It's our responsibility, co-responsibility to choose well and whatever. And then active God is a thought that, okay, he wanted, he, God wanted us to meet. And so it's our job to show up and be present in the conversation and, you know, and, and, and in my, the way I see it and according to my faith and what I believe God is active, but he knows what's going to happen anyway, even the things he's active about. So in that way, it's very passive as well, because he's all knowing. So there's little things that he puts in your way to remind us of things, to encourage us, to steer us from one event to a different event or whatever that is.

He knew this was all going to happen beforehand. And it's a very difficult thing to comprehend. And I can't begin to comprehend it. But I just do believe that there's something laid out for each of us and we have our own agency on this earth, but it's all within his plan in some way. It's all linked. I love the fact that you use the word agency.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think he wanted us to have a happy life. Yeah. And so, and he gave us what's for a reason. He gave us the ability to, to find truth and find what makes us happy for a reason. When did you come into your spiritual framework? Not seriously until probably when I met my wife about 15 years ago.

Okay. You know, and this was before the lone survivor mission and it was an ultimate test of my faith during that. You met your wife before. Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's get lone survivor mission. And it was an ultimate test of my faith during that. You met your wife before. Okay. So let's, let's get into that mission. And, and I don't even want to, let me just frame it. And you of course, correct me on, on where I have it mistaken. You're an elite military fighter. Fair. By the strict definition of the unit I was in, yes. Okay. Okay, good. I attribute it to the organization.

Yes. Yeah, good. Thank you. Folks listening know my affinity and deep regard for people that understand special ops and live that life. And so I've also learned that from a lot of my friends, what's up, Pete, what's up, you know, some of my friends that are served, they get a little irritated sometimes when people say to them, thank you for service. And, uh, you know, I don't, because it's like, it's weird. Yeah. So I don't know. So my, my, my, my, my know. So Pete's listening right now laughing.

And so, but you know what? Out of respect, like, holy snarkies, you've done something mission-minded where you operate in a high consequence environment, oftentimes very rugged, decisiveness, connectivity, purpose-driven actions, and highly skilled at craft, mind, and body. Well, okay. I mean, so I am less inclined to say thank you and more inclined to say teach because that's rad, you know, and, but I also appreciate freedoms and the nobility of the cause of military operations. And, you know, I hope this doesn't come off wrong. I get concerned about, like, I'm confused sometimes and conflicted about military operations. Do we need swords and weapons? And at some points in my life, I say, yeah, there's very bad people in this world. And the other times I say, yeah, but the world is sick. And what if we change the illness? Do we need, you know, is this too utopian? And,

you know, I don't know, but do we need military in the ideal world? So can you riff on that before we get to lone survivor? Can you help me there? That's such a deep topic. I mean, when it comes to the world being bad in a lot of ways, I sort of agree, but back to faith, we're all bad. I think oftentimes we find it easier to lump certain people into the more bad camp and us into the more good camp or vice versa, and that makes military operations easy. We're going to demonize this group, and that way we can justify or at least cope with the taking of human life because they're bad people. Well, they've got good in them, too. And we've got bad in us. And it's all it's all about where that dividing line is in everyone's heart. And no one can see into another man's heart except God.

So how do you kill? How does that happen for you? It's pure training. Um, you know, that I can remember one instance in, in Iraq where, or during the invasion, this is 2003 and, uh, I'm in a cavalry unit out in front of the lead units. And so we get to the first group of, um, what they were called Fedayeen, Saddam's Fedayeen army militiamen in, in this, in the city. And they'd not seen Americans before. We'd not seen bad guys before. Crazy. Cause that's a little bit like your grandfather. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But except this time I'm the one in the air. I mean,

I'm in the small reconnaissance helicopter and we see, you know, this, this armed group of bandits and, and the training kicks in, you know, bad people, weapon, people weapon weapons weapons armed push the button and and then and then that's it and you move on to the next target um and our ability to objectify the situation and categorize them as targets not people i mean right yeah the language that's really essential when it comes to, when it comes to having, you know, effective military operations, especially at the point where you got to start taking human life. Right. So how do you, how do you work with that being faith-based, being

a man of people and nobly and honorably wanting to protect some at the cost of others. Like I wrestle with, I wrestle with it. And, and when I talk to some of my friends that have served, you know, there's a, there's a split camp. Some people have shared with me, my brother-in-law, you know, has shared with me his perspective and, and others have shared the exact 180 degree different experience. And I don't want to say which one is which at a protection of privacy here, but some have said war is like the ultimate place for people to go because it's the most raw and the realest humans can get. And in some ways it's like a playground.

In some ways it's like a playground. In some ways it's like a hell ground. And, and others are like, listen, it's, I'm trained military. There's language, there's practices, there's those procedures you just execute. And then some have a deep, almost psychic split, right? PTSD is a real deal for you guys. Did you, did you, it's real deal for humans, but did you ever work with any PTSD yourself? Did you have any of those symptoms or, or behaviors? I'm sure that I did. My wife will say that I did. Yeah. It's not funny, but the way you said it is really funny. Yeah. But, uh, it's, that's the most immature part of my journey to date is dealing with, with how I'm processing a lot of these things that have happened. I'm sure that I suffer from post-traumatic

stress. Um, but I, I, I tend to do a good job of, of burying it and not, and not dealing with it. And I'm, I'm thoroughly not dealing with it. Have you, have you done any interior work? Any, any work on the interior? Like you've done some of that work? Yeah. There's a great organization in Boston called the Home Base, which is a partnership with the Red Sox Foundation with Mass General Hospital. And they do great work with veterans, especially when it comes to PTSD, substance abuse. And they have a phenomenal team. And I was able to visit them for a couple of weeks. And they're great. They're great folks.

Yeah, cool. But that was at the request of my wife. I didn't think I needed to go. I definitely didn't want to go. But, but they were, they were good. They were effective. Oh, cool. Okay. I love how you said it's the immature part of my development.

There's mature parts. Yeah. You know, the sensitivities that you have about human experience and the experiences you've been in and the language that you're choosing to articulate, I'm watching and feeling on the other side, knowing that you have a good understanding, right? A good grasp of it, whether you can yield the tool that we're talking about well, or not like that you're saying, yeah, some, I can, I'm pretty good with that tool. This tool that we're talking about, you know, I'm still, I'm still a rookie. Yeah. I really appreciate the way that you're capturing it. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I, I, I mean, we're all on this journey,

right. And we're trying to understand what we're experiencing and why and, and how to get better at it. Um, we're in such a thoughtful way of thinking about at different times and experiences in our life, we have different questions that we're trying to sort out. So we're not, I don't know what chapter you're on in your life right now, but what are the questions you're trying to sort out at this phase, at this mark in time? So one major question that I'm trying to answer is, is how do I honor, um, certain groups of people? How do I honor my parents, grandparents memory? So how, you know, cancer is a tremendously ravishing disease, right? Am I doing enough to try to at least help on that front? And when, you know, when it, when it, when cancer took my parents from me, um, uh, pancreatic and stomach very, very fast acting, you know, from, from a diagnosis to death was probably three months average for, for both of them. Um, and so am I doing anything

with that? Right. Did I learn any lessons from their battle with that? If they were back on earth right now, what would they say? Would they say, you know, this, you know, get into this area so that this doesn't happen to more people. Am I doing enough on that? And the answer is no, I'm not. Um, I can do a ton more in, in, in kind of honoring their memory and what they suffered through. Um, so that part I really fall short on. Then there's the part, the question I'm trying to answer, which is how am I honoring the memory of my men, uh, on, on the lone survivor mission? You know, each one of them had stories. We lost 19 men in one day, uh, in, in that, on that mission, each one of them, tremendous, you know, husbands, fathers,

brothers, um, soldiers, you know, how, how am I continuing their legacy? Well, you want to do it in one way right now by just bringing them up, but can you tell your story around it and pick up wherever you want? In my mind, the story where I was going with our storyline was that you, you were about to go on the mission. And yeah. Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a brand new platoon leader in Afghanistan at this point in my army career. I just joined this helicopter unit, this special operations unit called the night stalkers. And a platoon is about four helicopters and associated crews and equipment. And so my job was to lead this group of four under the supervision of a major by the name of Stephen Reich. And Stephen was the overall commander of my platoon and then another platoon. And so he was

at this particular stage in Afghanistan, my platoon was then another platoon. And so he was at this particular stage in Afghanistan, my platoon was the one in the rotation. And then he was there to, to overall provide guidance, leadership, coaching, mentorship, uh, that sort of thing. Incredible guy. If you've got to look, look up Steven Reich, he still holds records at West point for pitching, um, baseball phenomenal. Yeah. Went to the Orioles. Um, and, uh, you know, turned all that down to, to start a career with, with the one 60th in this unit, uh, in the army, tremendous leader, uh, mentor. And, um, to fast forward to this particular day, I received a mission to drop four seals into this Valley called the Korangal Valley in Afghanistan, a lawless region of this part of the country.

And we were to find this one individual by the last name of Shah. Shah was sort of a militia leader. He had loose connections with the Taliban, but he had an iron grip on this valley called the Korangal. He was making people's lives literally a living hell. And we had to find him, bring him in, disrupt his operations first of all, but then bring him in to get more intelligence as to what was going on in this valley. So the idea was put these four SEALs into this valley. They will on foot find him, isolate him, or at least pin him down, keep him where he is. So we can bring more seals to eventually bring him back to our, to our base. So I flew these four seals into

the, into the valley, roped, roped them in, meaning we hovered through down a rope and they, they roped down onto the ground and then, and then flew back. And the plan was, um, wait for the sun to set again. And then we'd put in more seals. So we fly, we fly, fly primarily at night. Um, hence the name night stalkers. So we put them at night and then the idea was go put in more people the next night. Well, during the daylight, when we're all sleeping, I get tapped on the shoulder. It's my, one of my, um, officers. And he says, you know, captain Brady, those seals that we just put in there in a firefight right now. And there, we don't know what's happening, but they need immediate support or extraction. One of the two.

And at that point, my role is a quick reaction force leader. Meaning if anything with our force happens unexpected, if there's an ambush, then we will react quickly with more forces to try to upset or throw off the balance of the fight in our favor. So as I'm listening to this data and this information coming in, I'm realizing how as seconds and minutes go by, this is an extremely dangerous situation. These are four SEALs in the middle of very, very rugged terrain. And they're, they're literally fighting for their lives right now. As the intelligence reports start to filter in, we realized that they're up against a force of maybe a hundred or so individuals. So a hundred on four, middle of

the Korngov Valley, not a place you want to fly a large Chinook helicopter in the middle of the daylight, which it now is. So I'm thinking about it and I'm getting my men together and we go to the helicopter and we start our procedures. Now, normally it takes about an hour between notification to get those guys, that quick reaction force in the air and ready to respond. So we're at about the 50 minute point now Now we've got our gear ready. I'm talking to the seals that are coming on board and we're talking about the gravity of the situation and it's worse than I initially thought. So not only are they fighting for their lives, I think they've taken casualties and their, their whereabouts are unknown. So I'm thinking, okay, you know, I've got,

I've got a brand new wife, brand new child at home. These other guys on this helicopter who I've been getting to know, you know, intimately over the last few months, they've all got families too. This could potentially be a one-way ticket. And so we talk about that very, very briefly, not to dwell on it because then people won't go. But I decide, okay, this is, you know, we got to do this right now. We've got to launch. And so the rotor blades are turning, we're getting ready to take off and there's a tap on my shoulder and it's my boss, Steven rank. And he says, wait, hold on, hold on.

What's happening for you at that moment as you're walking to your craft. Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking this is the, this is the last part of my life. This is the last chapter. This is it. How are you wrestling with that? You know, it's one of those things where you can't think about it because if you do, you'll go crazy. And so, you know, you know, your duty, you know, what you signed up for, you know, what you promised. How did you, how did you do with in that moment though? One foot in front of the other. Is that what you said? So you had the thought, this, this is probably the end. And then you said, okay, what's the language let's go. Is it stop thinking about that? Put one foot in front of like how,

like go right down into the man. Yeah. It was, um, was it anger? Was it excited? Not excitement? Like what did you do to emotionally or, or mentally to work with it? The way I dealt with that specific moment was less to do with, this is my duty. Although that was an important part, but it was someone needs me. And take your time on that. Just let this like, like, you know, I, this is, it's hard to feel. And I know I'm asking you hard questions right now and I know you're feeling, and for me, this is demonstration of courage. This is how I've come to understand feelings for men, women too, but certainly for men, like this is what courage is.

The vulnerability to be honest and share what is true. And earlier you said you were searching for truth. Well, here we are. Here we are. So thank you for including me. So, okay. So it was that other people need you. Yeah. And, and, and that, you know, by putting it in terms of, of somebody else

in worse shape than I am currently in that, that disparity of situations is what I think motivated me personally and the way I coped with it. Okay. I got to pull out of the conversation again, how your love life, your intimacy life must be incredible. Cause in this conversation, I'm drawn saying not in a romantic way, but I'm drawn to like the vulnerability, the openness, the articulation, the care for others. Like people must like really love you. Do you have that in your life? Do you know that? Do you know that? Do you know that that would be my experience?

Yeah. I think after chapter three and four, certainly after chapter five, Lone Survivor, when I started understanding that it's less about expecting things in return and it's more about just loving the best that I can. And it's that saying, you know, love like you'll never be hurt. I dance like nobody's watching. That's that's my responsibility and whether i get anything back it's not not the measure anymore because that's that's always there's oh there's always something

to get in the way they're gonna god you're gonna lose them right or or they're gonna be in a struggle of their own and they just can't provide that at that time but that's not my responsibility to have that expectation it's my responsibility to to give and if It's my responsibility to, to, to give. And if I can do that to the best of my ability, then, then I'm no longer putting out radar signals or receptive, you know, to try to receive anything or even measure what I'm receiving. So when you ask me, do you know that? No, I don't because I stopped using it as a metric, but it, but it's kind of you to say that. And thank you for saying that.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more

consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is

FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. FINDINGMASTERy is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters.

If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. Back to the story. So your heart's thumping, you're in that place where there's men, my people need me and I'm going. Yeah. they may be still alive. They may be dead, but they're still alive. They need me right now. And, and that, that provided the motivation I needed to, to, to go. Um, when, when Steven said, you know, Matt, you're not going, that's when he tapped you on the shoulder. When he said, get off this,, and he had his reasons for doing that, I was furious.

I was absolutely furious. I'd already said yes in my mind, right? I'd already said I'm willing to do this, and I'm willing to do whatever is necessary. And now you're not letting me do that. So there were conflicting emotions. Did it have to do with your skills? Did it have to do with a hesitation? Did it have to do with his, the way I read it on your research is that there was a little bit of a question mark of why, and you don't have, don't reveal anything that's not appropriate to reveal. I know you know that,

but do you know the why? I think I know the why. I mean, from mean, from a military standpoint, as the commander, he felt like there's this thing they call in combat called the decisive point, which is where as a leader, if you're going to be the commander of that battle, and if you want to have what the German army calls Fingerspitzgefell, if I pronounce that right, it's that fingertip feel. Meaning you're able to react to the slightest change in the environment, slightest change in morale between friend and foe. But the only way you can get that fingertip feel is by being exactly where the action is. He felt like the only way he could get to that decisive point was on this trip. So he needed to go. So he needed to go. There's a, there's a less,

there's a much more difficult to wrestle with reason why I think he went, which is, which is sacrifice, which is if this is so dangerous that it's highly likely that, that my men are not coming back. And so I'm going to be among them. And so it's that whole leaders last philosophy. If I'm asking them to take on this grave risk, I'm going to take on that risk as well. Wow. Now I felt that was my duty too, which is why there was conflict. What was your, going to be your role on that mission? Air mission commander. Yeah.

Okay. So, so in the cockpit of the helicopter, um, and, uh, so we, we fought right there on the helicopter. You did. Yeah. We fought, we yelled at each other. I told him I was going whether he liked it or not. And I was going to sit on the back of the aircraft as a rifleman.

But we didn't need a rifleman. I mean, that was not in the job description. But he said, that's not even a thing. No, you're not going to do that. You're not a SEAL. We have SEALs in the back for that. You're not one of them. And so I got off.

Oh my goodness. And about an hour and a half later, that whole, that whole crew was gone. 16, 16 seals and night stalkers were wiped out with one shot. Was it a rocket rocket propelled grenade RPG? Yep. Yep. It was an RPG and you, you would have been on grenade. RPG. Yeah. Yeah. It was an RPG. And you would have been on it. Okay.

So that's a storyline that's confusing, right? Survivor guilt, all of that is really confusing. How do you think about it now? You've had time under your belt. You've had time to process, to deal with it, to bury it, to open it up. How are you thinking about it now? What I think about now is, is, you know, I asked the question, why all the time? And I'll never know exactly why that happened from, from a spiritual standpoint. I'll never know. So, so the way I deal with, with, with that right now is, am I, you know, am I using this

borrowed time wisely? Um, and how, you know, if they're, if those guys, if those 16 are looking at me from somewhere, what, what, what's their analysis? Are there points in my day or my week where they're saying, come on, man, if we, if we were in your place right now, you really think we'd be sitting there watching whatever it is on TV? You know? So I, I'm always hearing their voices.

I'm always seeing their faces and I'm always answering that question. Am I using this time wisely? And so then back zooming in back into that scenario, then then the challenge became I made the decision once to go in a very, very dangerous and risky situation. And I told myself yes. And I crossed that chasm. I got ripped back across the chasm. Now I'm in charge of this whole group in Major Reich's spot because that's what happens in the military. When the leader dies, the next in command takes command.

Now I'm in charge of 50 guys now. And now the challenge is go back, right? Follow where they went. And we just saw what happened to them. And that was the first question my guys asked me was, what's the plan? To do exactly what they did? And you have to tell them, yeah, that's what we're doing. We're going right back to where they went.

And that's the leadership challenge all its own. Okay. Hold on. On that note, you need to jump on a flight. Yeah. The irony is not lost. Okay. What a, what a beautiful conversation and so i want to honor like my experience and say thank

you and i'm better for the brief time that we've met each other i'm better for it so thank you and part two of this will come and we'll do it over the phone we'll do it you know when you're not jumping on another flight, another aircraft. And is there any like last little parting gem for part one of this conversation you'd like to leave us with? Yeah, you know, I guess from a, you know, maybe from a therapeutical standpoint, this is this is helpful for me to talk about things like this, even though I talk about it to myself all the time, I don't talk about it to other people a whole lot. Um, I would venture to say, and this is, this is, this is a bet. I'd bet it probably helps people more than they think to actually just talk about these things instead of keeping it inside. I can't imagine it's better to not talk about it than it is to talk about it. So, so from, from a veteran, from one veteran's perspective, thanks. Thanks for

letting me do this because, uh, I think it helps. I think it helps just kind of wrestle with it. It's a gift and, uh, not lost on me. You've been on your life finding mastery well before we ever met well before this conversation on a podcast call. You've been on your life finding mastery well before we ever met well before this conversation on a podcast call. You've been, you've committed your life to finding mastery, whether you use those words or not, I don't know, but that's why I wanted to meet you and to understand the mechanics of how you've organized your thinking and your behaviors, your words and your ways. And, um, I can't wait to get to part two of this conversation. So safe journeys and thank you for, for what we've done so far. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Okay, Matt. So we're back in our last

conversation. We dropped off right when it was super intense, when you were talking about the decision-making process, once you had lost so many of your colleagues and friends, what you were going to do to go back as you were thrusted back into, or no, thrusted into lead command. And so do you remember that part of our conversation? I do. Yeah. And, you know, kind of what I was wrestling with at that moment in time is really three options. One was, okay, I could, I could do nothing. And hopefully there's some super secret task force somewhere that's organized, trained, equipped to do this very thing.

And we can kind of take a step back and grieve while, while this team, you know, goes in, this rescue team can go in and save our guys. And at this point, remember, we didn't know who was alive and who was dead. We had no understanding, no knowledge of what had happened other than a helicopter was shot down, our guys and SEALs were missing. So, you know, option one, just wait for a task force to come do it for us. Well, the problem with that is, you know, we worked for, at that time, for a guy named Stanley McChrystal, who was the JSOC commander, and we were a JSOC unit. And if you're familiar with that unit, that is the super secret task force that does these kinds of missions.

So the cavalry was not coming. There was no one, you know, in the U.S. military that had this capability to rescue these folks above and beyond what we offered. So number one, that's not an option. Two, I thought to myself, what if we did, you know, what if we waited and allowed the situation to develop on its own, allow those who are on the ground, still left alive, give them a chance to recollect, regroup, and start on offensive on their own and wait for communication from them. Well, that was a non-starter as well, because if people are in need, you just can't wait

on something like that. Even though we didn't know their disposition, we didn know, if people are in need, you just can't wait on something like that. Even though we didn't know their disposition, we didn't know how people were faring health-wise, it's just not something you're going to sit around and let a friend go through. And these were all friends and teammates and people we knew and loved. And, you know, so that wasn't really an option either. And so the only option I had that I could really come down on and hang my hat on was we have to go back to the exact same spot. And that was the hardest, most difficult, riskiest decision that I could make and that we could execute. But it was really the only option in my mind. I went to the JSOC intelligence group to ask about the enemy situation. Obviously,

my men were concerned about what was going to be on the receiving end of this next flight. And I asked them, look, do we have any information about what brought them down, who they were, where they are, what remains of them? And literally, they could give me nothing. They said, we don't know. We don't know who's left on the ground from an enemy standpoint. We know they have RPGs, which are rocket-propelled grenades,

and we don't know where they're at. So your guess is as good as mine, essentially. And with that, I had to take that very ambiguous and almost useless enemy situation, that knowledge of the enemy situation. I had to couple that with the one course of action I knew that we had to take, which is go back to the exact same spot. And I then had to group everyone, gather everyone together in a group, those of us that remained

and look them in the eye and say, this is what we're going to do. Uh, and that was a, that was an incredibly tough moment for me as a leader. That was one of those moments where, you know, in any organization, you've got the tough guys, the folks that are putting on a facade, folks that are good at faking it. You've got, you know, different, you know, just masks that people wear. And this was the one time in my career that I can remember where no one had any sort of mask on at all. It was bare bones, raw emotion, everyone looking at me in this room, you know, about 50 folks looking at me, wondering what is it, you know, what it is I'm going to say and what we're going to do. And the tremendously impactful moment for me as a leader.

Number one, I was scared. I was scared myself. I had a family back home and didn't know what was going to happen, but I had to show them. I had to fake it. I had to show them that I had things under control. I was going to step into this role immediately without hesitation and that even though I may not know exactly what's going to happen,

I was confidently and comfortably in command of this unit. And that was a bit of acting. It was a bit authentic as well, but certainly not completely authentic. But it was the role that I had to play at the time. Would it be fair to say that you were aware of all of your feelings? You're aware of the toughness of the decision, which is not a feeling, but that that experience. And then you're aware of your fear and you're aware that it doesn't sound like there's any

excitement. So it's not that was not confusing. But the activation that was happening for you was some adrenaline, fear based stuff. Is it fair to say you're aware of it, but didn't choose to act on it? Yeah, I was definitely aware of it. And it would bubble up to the surface of my mind every so often. And when that happened, I found that I had to almost pretend the scenario was training, or that it was some exercise deep in the mountains in New Mexico where we would train up for these sorts of events and simulate and model these sorts of events happening.

I had to go back to that. I had to trick myself. I had to trick my own mind. If I thought too much about what I was feeling, how uncertain and nervous I was, I'm not sure I would have held it together. And I'm sure, I'm certain. And I know from talking to them, a lot of other people were feeling the same way. And so instead of normalizing it, like saying, Hey, listen, I'm scared too. I know you are. You chose not to go that route and to say, okay, let me execute on exactly what my training is. Let me go back and reference what

training felt like and get into that state. Exactly right. Yeah. And I really had to weigh those two options. Do I become ultra vulnerable in this situation and talk about how scared I am? And we've all seen those old World War II movies, you know, Hey, I'm scared. Well, we're all scared, son. You know, when the guy's talking to his sergeant back on in Iwo Jima. And, you know, I didn't feel like this was the right moment for that. I took a sense of the crowd. I could feel that they were eager to act.

And I didn't feel like that was going to be the most effective route or the most effective persona for me really to present. So it was not one of arrogance that I decided to go with, but it was one of firm comfortability and commitment and an awareness of what we were facing, but also a sort of a presence of resolve. And I thought that is what the unit needed at the time. And that's what was going to get us through the next couple of resolve. And I thought that that is what the unit needed at the time. And that's what was going to get us through the next couple of days. Okay, independent of the outcome of what happened, how can you teach how you made that decision? Was it was it was right? What was it what was right for you? Or was it the information you were gathering from the 50 that you were commanding to sense what they needed?

Like, how did you do that? Yeah. So it was more of the latter. I took a sense of the crowd and I tried to both verbally and non-verbally gather what are people expecting? What, what are these guys looking for? What do they need right now in this moment? And that analysis or that sensing led me really to the question of, you know, how close am I to the former commander? rock solid. The unit had really developed and become extremely effective under his command over the past year and a half. And so what they wanted was something, was someone Reich-like. This was not really the time for me to showcase my leadership style and, you know, get, let them get used to somebody else and another, you know, someone's way of, of executing and someone else's way of commanding and leading an organization. They wanted consistency and they wanted, they wanted some familiarity. So again, you went, yeah, you went back to past success. You went back to whether it was the

training mindset and frame set a frame you're in, or it went back, you went back to whether it was the training mindset and frame set a frame you're in or it went back you went back to what had worked and what was familiar that's phenomenal yeah and yeah sorry i bet nobody trained you for that like in a crisis moment go back to you know what you know works is a phrase that people might say but i bet no one really prepared you for that no not really um And again, it came down to what are the needs of the men right now, of the soldiers that are standing before me. And another variable thrown into the mix of getting used to a new guy, a new style, a new authority was not something that I thought they were ready for, nor did I think it would make them more

effective on the battlefield. Okay. And then do you remember, so when you're gathering this information, do you look to a couple of your closest mates to figure out the vibe of the room? Or is this more something intuitive that you're feeling? Yeah. This was an extremely lonely situation. I had no peers or mates or anyone of similar rank or background on this deployment with me. The closest confidants I had to form a very rapid inner circle were the senior warrant officers that flew these aircraft. And so warrant officers are folks in the Army that really specialize in flying, and that's all they do their entire career. And they've got their own ranks structure and hierarchy. And so, um, and so these were folks from a, from a different, um, uh, rank structure, but folks that were absolutely the experts in operating these,

these aircraft. And I had to, I had to pull the trusted, you know, those trusted individuals together immediately and talk about where our next, what our next moves were. And, and I really couldn't talk to them about how do I present myself? Um, you know, not, not explicitly anyway, I had to just listen to what they were saying and what their concerns were. And from that, I was able to intuit what they needed in a leadership, um, presence. Okay, what did you learn? Looking back now, if we zoom out, what did you learn about yourself during that?

I'm imagining this is like in the course of an hour. I don't, but that's my imagination. It is. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So what did you learn about yourself in the course of that hour? One thing I learned was taking volunteers from an all-volunteer unit is something in this particular instance what was essential. And so what I learned about myself was that sometimes I've got to do unconventional things in a crisis scenario.

And I found that I was able to do that fairly rapidly. And so we're an all-volunteer unit. The Night Stalkers are all volunteer. But for this particular mission, I wanted to take additional volunteers because I wanted to make sure everyone's head was in the game for this. And those that were unable to do it, unable to comprehend what was going on, I wanted to make sure they were able to self-select and say, you know what, boss, I can't do this one.

And there were some folks that did that. I learned that, you know, I learned that in a crisis situation that sometimes I can become too tunnel visioned, too myopic and laser focused when I need to really broaden my aperture. And so, you know, one example of that was when I was on the radio listening to this aircraft get shot down and the people around me are asking me, what do we do? And I froze. You know, I couldn't process what to do. I couldn't understand it. This was now something I was going to be taking the helm of, you know, for maybe 15, 20 minutes. And so that was a crucial 15 or 20 minutes where I thought that I needed to really step up and show that I wasn't missing a beat. But, you know, I think I failed in that respect where I didn't allow myself the time or the bandwidth or, you know, to process really what was going on.

I learned that, you know, I learned that fear can be crippling. And in that moment, when I heard that call, and I think in the back of my mind, when I knew what it was I had to do, I think fear absolutely took over for a good 10, 15 minutes and I couldn't do anything at all. And so that's, that's something that I replay in the back of my mind quite a bit. And then how do you wrestle with those? Cause we all make mistakes. We all, you know, none of us are perfectly prepared for any moment, let alone moments that have no roadmap. And so how do you, yeah, so maybe, maybe you're talking about. But still, there's mistakes when I knew that I could have done something better, but only with hindsight.

Like I wasn't fully aware in the moment of how to be better. So how do you wrestle with that now? Because in non-life and death situations, it tends to be easy to be self-critical. And then at some point say, you know what, that's not really working. Like I'm just going to get another chance later and I'll be better and I'll be better this way. A, B, and C, fill in the style of what better means. And, but in the, in the situation describing, I doubt you'll ever get another chance, you know? So like, hopefully, right? Yeah. Well, I think now what this provided me was really some perspective

to really understand this probably is not going to happen again. And so now when I encounter crises on a smaller scale or more simple construct, I'm able to really think to myself, what's the real scope of this danger, this problem, this risk, this crisis? How bad is it really? And I've now got this as a marker in my mind for almost the worst it can possibly get. And so because I've got this in my mind, I've got this anchor point that was so bad, I know nothing's going to really come close to that or approach it. That allows myself, I think, to really re-engage with what's happening with reality, to understand, you know, what it is I'm up against, to try to get a handle mentally on the situation,

because I tend not to overestimate the adverse consequences and the risk involved. You know, I've seen that. That happened before. It's probably not the situation now. And so that allows me to really digest and take apart problems that are much more manageable since there's no way they could be as bad as it was. That's what's up. You've, you've earned it. And for, for all of us that we go through hard times, either they create some sort of chasm in our life where it's like, we can't ever get out of that hole. It feels like, or we crawl out of that hole and we're like, okay, well that's a good reference point. Right. Yeah.. It's like, and then the new situation, the new chasm that we're about to slide into, it's like, wait a minute, I can see the bottom.

It's not that bad. I can get out of this. Yeah. So it sounds like you've used that as a growth platform. I have it. And it prevents me from catastrophizing. I think that's the right word. It is.

You know, situations that I get into And catastrophizing, I think that's the right word. It is. Catastrophizing. You know, situations that I get into and, you know, allows me to really plumb the depths of what I'm facing and realize that things aren't as bad as I make them out to be. Yeah. So that is the right word. Catastrophizing, just as a quick calibration definition, means that we think about the worst outcomes all the time. So catastrophizing is like, you see you're, you come into your home and the door's unlocked. And then all of a sudden you're like, Oh my God, there's been a robber. It's like, no, wait, hold on. Actually, I forgot to lock the D up. You know, the, the door I was running out too fast. So like catastrophizing is making the worst scenario in your mind or, or, um, out loud. So you don't catastrophize much. No, I don't. Yeah. Yeah. What a gift.

Okay. Oh my God. So, I mean, like when you're telling reliving the story, what, what is it like? Cause I just checked in with myself and like my, I'm, I'm breathing up in my chest a little bit. I'm gripping the, um, uh, the microphone, I'm holding a little bit. I'm gripping the microphone. I'm holding it a little bit tighter. I can feel like what's happening for you. I've got all those emotions. My skin is crawling. My hair is standing up. I'm choked up. These are all emotions and reactions that I've learned to really just accept and embrace. Not long after this all happened, I really dwelled on what happened on the decisions I made on, on the additional risks that I put everyone in, including myself. And, and, um, you know, I, I'm not sure I shared this part of the story,

but when I put the four seals in Mark Luttrell, Danny Dietz, Michael Murphy, Matt Axelson, when I was about to insert them, I ran into something called an abort criteria. Did I go over this at all? No. Oh, my hair just stood up again. No. Sorry, we all know the story, the lone survivor mission, as it's been called. We all know it.

And then I don't think many people know how that actually came to be based on how you've described like, holy moly. Okay. So there's an abort mission clause. There's an abort criteria that we met. And what that means is you've got to have all these assets and resources in play for action X to happen. Well, one of those pieces was missing.

It was a critical air asset that we use pretty routinely in Afghanistan, and it was not there. Because I felt pressure to do this mission, because I knew how important this was for the Special Operations Task Force, I asked a few clarifying questions to the air assets that were in play and asked them what the landing zones looked like. And they mentioned some movement in some areas of personnel. They couldn't identify who they were, but our landing zone where we were going, that appeared clear. And so based on the context that I was able to build with the players that were on station in the air, I felt,

okay, qualitatively, I think this is still a go mission, and I put them in. Quantitatively, we had not met our mission go criteria because of that one asset. So by the book, I should not have put them in. But I had built enough of a story and a rationale and reasoning in my mind that I figured if not tonight, then when? And I made that decision unilaterally. When I got back to Bagram, this is after the four SEALs are now on the ground, walking through their checkpoints at night, trying to stay stealthy, quiet, hidden. When I got back to our base that night, Stephen Reich, the first thing out of his mouth was, why did you put the

four seals in? You knew we didn't have the conditions to do it. And I explained my rationale and he accepted it. And it was all logical and it made sense. And it was tactically sound. Uh, but it just happened to be in violation of the criteria that, criteria. That decision cost, I won't say cost, led to Stephen's life, led to the end of Stephen's life. I still think that I made the right call, but I cannot escape the fact that had I gone by the book, none of that potentially could have happened. Or had I gone by the book, none of that, you know, none of that may have happened. That led me to, that decision alone led me to substance abuse not long after. And replaying that in my mind and my thought process and deciding, do I go or do I not? All of that, you know, and that's one thing that I learned about myself is that

if I dwell on a decision I made, regardless of the consequences and what it may have led to, if I dwell on that and second guess it, it will, it will have significant mental health consequences. Um, and, and that led to several coping mechanisms, including substance. And I had to really get to the bottom of that trough, that chasm to really understand I was, I was doing a lot of damage to myself and I was doing a lot of damage to my family too. Um, and, and, and by trying to avoid that pain of going back to those moments and decisions, by trying to avoid a lot of, a lot of that pain and, and, and I would avoid thinking about it too.

Uh, and by avoiding it, I was causing more pain for myself and for others. And that was a huge, huge turning point for me in my life. And I imagine it would be almost paralyzing to try to make decisions after, you know, with such significant consequences. And then, you know, your intensity and your principles that you have shared that are underneath the surface of how you make decisions and guide your life that you really care and so i can imagine just getting back to um out of the amphitheater war like no how do i make a decision because some of the decisions i've made have been catastrophic it it really made me question my own judgment that's right in a lot of different ways and then and that had that had career implications down the line. Oh, it did.

Yeah. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Not the decision in, in, in, in combat, but the decision, the process, the way that you process it after. Well, in my mind, I, I, in my mind, I determined, you know, this was not the right call because it led to X, Y, and Z. Uh, and you know, did I really have the right reasoning behind all that? I questioned that. And then I questioned, do I really have the right logic and reasoning behind any of my tactical decisions? Yeah. Right. So that's, that's that all or none thing that takes over like this,

you know, universal lateral thinking. So how about, how many people said this to you um they said matt okay you made the call based on all of your training and yes there was a there was a catastrophic outcome but if you didn't do that you would have put the entire whatever in jeopardy you know you would have put the entire command in jeopardy. You would have put, you know, potentially America in jeopard getting compromised by, by the folks on the ground. Um, if it didn't happen that night, it would have happened possibly the next night or the night after that they had a very robust reconnaissance and early warning network in that, in the Korngal Valley. And, um, it's very unlikely that these guys would have just magically slipped under the

radar, uh, without anyone spotting them just by putting them in a different night. The same conditions were in play on the ground in those mountains. The same warlord that we were looking for had the exact same resources doing the exact same sweeps every night. And so, you know, had we not gone in at all, he would have continued his, his really terrorizing of that, of that Valley and the civilians that lived there as well as the American bases that were close by. So, um, there, there was, there was a cost to inaction, no doubt. I didn't see that at the time. And then how did you pull yourself through it? So I get the maladaptive, you know, decisions looking back, like, okay, I'm going to drink and drug so I don't feel as much because I'm beating myself up a lot.

Shame and guilt and all of that stuff are kind of the prime movers oftentimes for addiction. And so you're in that space, in that vortex where it feels like it's nearly impossible to get out of self- of self-destruction destruction of others, you know, uh, takes place. And then, uh, and I'm not being cavalier. I'm just trying to get to the point, like, how did you pull yourself through that? It was a little bit of, uh, of just reflection and realization that, you know, this is not, this is not going to do anything good for me. Uh, most of it came from others. And this is what I learned along the way is that your support network, your family, friends, they see you in a way that you don't see yourself. And oftentimes they're the ones that have to really snap you out of this downward spiral you can find yourself on to say, either you do X or Y will happen. Sometimes that consequence is, you know,

you're going to die. Sometimes the consequence is I'm going to leave you. And we had, my wife and I had to have, you know, a really difficult conversation where she said, I don't like the way you're behaving. This isn't the man I married and you better figure a way out of it. I'm going to help you along the way, but you know, this is at a crisis point and you need figure a way out of it. I'm going to help you along the way, but this is at a crisis point, and you need to recognize it. It really took that intervention, that external shock to snap me out of it. Aren't strong people rad?

Yeah, they are. We need them. Oh, my God, we need them. Yeah, a blessing. And for people to give you the straight truth, even though it seems abrasive or hard or whatever, like that straight truth. And I'm not a fan of that phrase, brutal, brutal truth or brutal honesty. I don't think it has to be brutal. It just needs to be honest. You know, there's, there are ways to do it compassionately

as well. Okay. So, so how long was that run for you that kind of dwell internal dwell uh critique destructive maladaptive thing how long was that for you oh man that was a good four or five years yeah and on on the surface did you look fine when people saw you oh yeah you're performing properly yeah so you're functioning. Yeah, I was functioning. I had the, you know, the iconic army officer persona down pat. And there was no way you could tell from the outside what was going on. But it was a brutal inner conflict that was going on for a long period of time. So I'd love to ask, I want to ask about pressure, but I don't want to get there yet, how you define pressure, because you mentioned that word in a really powerful context just a

minute ago. But right now, as you're speaking, are you editing? And if you are, who are you editing for? And then in context, during that four or five year period, were you editing? And if so, who are you editing for? And so let's start with this conversation right now. Like, I think we're always editing. And sometimes when we're editing less or not editing, there's an incredible freedom. But I'm wondering, you know, because this is a public conversation, if like what, what your editing tools look like right now. So when you say editing, you mean just, just kind of selecting very carefully what it is that I'm

saying as opposed to what I, what it is I'm feeling? Yeah. Well, but all of, all of that, like all, like we're always doing that, right? But not always that's too strong of a word. So are you editing right now? Um, that's, that's a fault. I've been told that I have from my wife that I don't edit enough. Oh, that's awesome. Okay. So, uh, and so a lot of this is, you know, I, I'm, I'm editing maybe 5%. You know, I don't tell this story to a lot of people and it's, it's difficult to tell it. And so when I find the chance to, to kind of run through in my mind and verbalize it and contextualize it, uh, it allows me to, and this is part of my healing process is I can really objectify the story and I can tell it as something that's not really something I went through, but that somebody went through and I can kind of step away from it, um, and be a little bit more abstract. And so, uh, for me, I see it as a, as a, as a coping tool, as a, as something to get me further away from that dark spot where I was in 2006 through 2010. And so very little editing on my part, just because I see the benefit in it, I think.

Yeah, well, that is actually what I'm sensing. So there's plenty of special operators that I've been fortunate enough to know and be friends with and have conversations with. And there's an edit that I can feel in many of their stories that happen at war, which is no problems. That's fine. And I know that I'll edit as well. If I'm in a particular group here or there or context, I'm editing, right? Because it's not just, we all are, because we need to be aware of the thoughtfulness and the choices of our words. And so who are you, even the 5%, who are you editing for? Which sounds like, by the way, 95%, that's, there's some freedom in what you're doing. And I love the way that you talked about,

yeah, I can see it from a distance now. I'm not like in the first person. I could see it from a distance, but I'm also in it because I can feel it. So you've got that really nice toggle between both perspectives that does allow for just a different context to be able to see it differently and feel it differently. So yeah, so go into that 5%. Like, who are you editing for? Mostly my wife. You know, she's an inch. She's a very introverted person. She went through a ton of pain, both during the event and then the aftermath. And when I talk about this story and when I can imagine her listening to this on the other end of her device. I can just imagine this causing her.

And so, you know, I don't want to do that. I don't want to avoid that. I'm editing for the victims. I don't say they're not victims, but the men, I'm editing for their families, their kids, their wives. These are all people that have never been the same since this event. Kids that have grown up without dads, you know, fathers who lost their sons too early.

And there are many people across the country that have a stake in this and they've lost someone they can never replace. And so I'm for sure editing for them as well. Yeah. And that's what love is. And you know, how much space other people take in, take up inside of you and how much you care that you protect them, that you honor them and that you're aware of them. Right. Even, even in, you know, tough conversations where it, you know, many parts that what we were describing was all about you and then your care for the mission and the men, uh, and, and soldiers that were in front

of you. And I don't, I say men and soldiers, cause I don't know if there was any females, uh, part of your, your unit or not, but, um, there, there were not at a time there are now, but at the time it was all, yeah, all male unit. Yeah. So yeah. So that's, I wanted to hear how you were working and it sounds like your care of others is still really strong and the compassion you have for others. It is. And I've tried to put myself in their place. I can't imagine. I'd rather give my own life than lose a son. That kind of pain,

I just, I cannot comprehend. And, or, you know, losing my spouse. And this was the day after, or maybe two days after Father's Day. And so I remember sitting in the planning room with my night stalkers and I, you know, Corey Goodnature, Shurkenbach, and Steve Reich, and all these Father's Day care packages and letters coming in, and all the sharing these letters from our kids and wives, and, you know, sharing them with each other and laughing and then, you know, having that really human moment and then going out on a mission and, and the not coming home. I mean, that's a very vivid memory for me and it makes, makes father's day tough. It makes, you know, a couple of days after father's day tough as well. Uh, but, uh, you know, this is,

it's a loss that, that shapes and alters people's lives irreversibly. I don't even know what to say. Yeah, I mean, I really don't. So I just want to honor what you've been through and say thank you for sharing. Yeah, thank you for sharing. Yeah. Thank you, Mike. It was, uh, it's, it's, again, it's good to do it and it's, it's few and far between when I'm able to do it. And so I appreciate the chance. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know,

I'm as equally fascinated as I am about the preparation to become and to adjust and respond, uh, the coming through and going through difficult times is necessary, you know, in the perspective. And so you've got both, you know, you've, you've really earned a special space in the human condition. And not because of the outcome, but because of how you are articulating it and how you've moved through it. This is your life and your ability to capture, uh, you know, our honorable fashion, the feelings and the thoughts of both preparation of good times of challenges and, um, pain and for you and for loved ones

and for loved ones that you don't even know, but you have compassion for them. Like that's what it's about. So yeah. Thank you. You know, thank you. Yeah. And, and I, you know, I, I wish I could agree a hundred percent with you, but I feel like I'm still in the middle of it. I really do. I feel like, I feel like I've, I've maybe turned a corner in 2010 and 11, but I'm still learning how to process. I'm still learning how to, how to use the, you know, the gift that I've been given, uh, and use it wisely. Um, I feel like I fail at that almost

every day, but, um, but I appreciate it. What's the current member. We did the chapters in our last conversation, the chapter title yours was like family and then i can't remember what chapter two was but chapter three was loss then there was isolation um yep what's the current chapter or do you have any other chapters uh to fill in yeah you know the the chapter on my upswing really um since 2010 really is just rebuilding and rebalancing. It's rebuilding those relationships that I had broken through my, I don't want to call it recovery, but almost a haze, you know, these years of just not knowing what all of that meant and what it meant for me personally and professionally. And, you know, rebuilding those people who I pulled away from, those relationships that I pulled away from, is really the chapter after that loss and that isolation, the rebuilding

and rebalancing. And then the chapter after that is really seizing the moment and understanding that every minute on this earth is a gift that I don't deserve and that I by all rights shouldn't have. Um, and something that helped me understand the importance of seeing the moment and the now, and this can be maybe for another time, but in 2000, at the end of 2009, almost the exact same scenario happened again. And that was really the event that snapped me out of my haze and, and made me realize that, look, this is, you know, God's trying to tell me something and, you know, circumstance, this life is trying to tell me something. And I've got to take a more active approach and mindful approach about how it is I approach my life and the things that I'm trying to do and the people that I'm trying to grow closer to.

And so that really is the chapter now is seizing the moment and making every second that I've got count. Oh, my God. So what happened? Well, to put it in a nutshell, eventually I got Steve Reich's job. So I actually became the official commander of this company, this organization. And on a mission in Afghanistan at the end of 2009, I was put in the same situation where we had men trapped on the ground. And this mission is still classified. But we had men trapped on the ground. And this mission is still classified. But we had men trapped on the ground in northwestern Afghanistan from both the Marine Corps, the DEA and Army Green Berets. And we had to go in and get them back out.

And this time, you know, I tried to make the same rational decisions that Steve would have made. And I put myself in what I thought was the most dangerous position on the flight. And that would have been the lead helicopter, the equivalent of the turbine three, three, where Steven sat during the rescue mission. Normally I flew on the second helicopter, the one in trail, they call it. But on this flight of two helicopters, I took myself out of the seat on, on the second helicopter and went in the lead one to take that additional risk, to lead from the front, to do those things that Stephen did that day. And again, very risky scenario and situation. And we lost on the target area,

the pilots in the second aircraft and the crew, except for two who were severely injured on the second aircraft as well. Total of 10 killed in action, including the pilots and crew, obviously the seat where I would have been. And that, when that happened that night in October of 2009, marked the second largest loss of life in Afghanistan. Second only to the first time, the first mission, Operation Red Wings, June 28, 2005, the one I was on previously. So another conversation for another day, but this was one of those times where, you know, I figured, you know, I determined

that I'm not, I'm not doing this right mentally. Um, if I dwell on this, if I, if I, if I react to and reflect on this the same way I did the first time around, I'm, I'm going to lose, I'm going to lose everything. And so I had to attack it from a completely different angle. I had to rewrite the script. I had to rewire everything that I knew to be true. And this was really the turning point for me to, to, to live, start living and not, and not dwell anymore and not fix it. And that's, that's what I had been doing for the past five years.

Oh, for sure. We're going to deconstruct that one. We're going to, we're going to unpack that at some other. Yes. Oh, my God. Okay. I got to tell you, Matt, I'm having this thought. My skin's crawling listening to you speak about what you've been through and the uniqueness of your life. And everyone's life is unique, but you've had some extraordinary moments in time. And I'm not saying those are easy or to be glorified. I'm just saying they're extraordinary. They're extraordinary. And I had this thought that we need more men like you in this world. And so that's just a thought that's been banging around the back of my head that I

couldn't wait to tell you. So again, thank you for that. Yep. Thank you for that yeah thank you for that and do you have a philosophy yeah do you have a philosophy that guides your life um i do uh and you know and they're always a work in progress right the software that's kind of running in the background that's that's that's forming your decisions and that you know the things you hope you're, you're grabbing onto in times of uncertainty. But, um, you know, my, my philosophy really is, uh, is it's a lot of it's driven by the golden rule and, and it's, you know, do unto others as you'd have done unto yourself. Would I be happy if I were on the receiving end of what I'm about to do or what I'm about to say? Um, and so for a lot of what I, what I do in my life, you know, the golden rule really is, is, is front and center. Um, and you know, another philosophical guidepost that I really have is, am I really committed to what I'm doing? And if I'm not, I'm not going to waste my time. a lot of folks in the world, in the business world, in public life that are kind of going

through the motions. They're compliant. They're doing the things their job asks of them. And they're receiving a paycheck at the end of the day. And they're simply complying with what's being asked of them. There's a difference between that and being truly committed to a cause and committed to what it is you're doing. And I have found that all the activities that require a large degree of compliance, I don't waste my time with. It's the ones that really expect commitment from folks that wear the jersey, that bleed for the team, that are ready to roll our sleeves up and say, this is what I'm going to devote the rest of my life to because I don't know how much longer I've got. I really found the calling and the drive to embrace things that I can commit to and not just things that I can comply with and

check the block and have a very transactional relationship with. And so that goes with relationships, the job, activities that I devote time and energy to is, you know, can I really commit to this or is this something that's just going to ask for something transactional in return? So those two things really, I think are the biggest philosophical guideposts that I use. And, you know, I think the last thing is, you mentioned it before, is, you know. How am I able to love the people that I'm with and around? How am I expressing that love to them without really necessarily expecting anything in return? Love is a powerful force. That's why the men went that day. It wasn't because the job asked them to. They were committed to an oath to never leave a fallen comrade in the hands of

the enemy. They were committed to not only that oath, they were committed to their brothers in arms. And there's no other explanation for why they went in that day and put their own lives at risk. So, um, so that love for each other is just so powerful and it's so, uh, meaningful to me. Um, you know there's got to be love involved with the relationships that I build and the things that I spend time on so yeah that's really it and you know thank you for reminding us of the fragility of

time and in relationships and the impermanence that is always working. And also, obviously, the power of love. So, last question. And I know I wanted to ask you about pressure, but I want to save that for another time. How do you think about or define or even articulate the thoughts or the process of mastery? Or what mastery is? Mastery is, is this, it's this elusive goal in my mind that you can never actually achieve.

Then that's, that's the irony of it. You know, to me, mastery is, is a, is a aspirational aspect to whatever, whatever it is you're trying to become extremely proficient at. I think once you feel like you've achieved mastery, you're probably fairly deep into self, into self, what is it? What's the term I'm looking for? Not delusional, but what is it? Oh, deception. Self-deception. So when you're in mastery, there's a lot of self-deception? Here's the deal. I think if you feel you've mastered anything in this life, I think if you feel you're at that point, you're probably not at that point.

And you're probably in a you're probably in a deception trap, because I think there's always room for improvement in everything that we do. religious leaders are ones that feel that their spiritual journey is over and that they've achieved spiritual mastery and that they now must impart it on everyone else. I think those are very dangerous individuals. I think folks that have the humility to understand that they can approach mastery, but maybe never achieve it. Those are the ones that always, in my mind, are able to stay humble or able to stay hungry and continue to improve and know that that brass ring of mastery is just always maybe an inch out of reach. And when you feel like you've got it to wear, because you probably don't, that's just, that's just how I feel about, that's how I feel about mastery.

Brilliant. What a great note to, to wrap this up with. Man, I've loved this conversation. And thank you again, again, and again, and again, for the insights, the courage that you've demonstrated and, you know, the understandings that you share with us. So that being said, where can we find you? Where can we find what you're up to? And I don't know even if you have a way to do that or want to say it. But if you do have some projects that are good for folks to follow along, I'd love to celebrate those as well. Yeah. The easiest way to find me right now is on LinkedIn.

If you just look up Matthew Brady, I run my own consulting and investment firm. It's called Pershing Barracks Capital. And, you know, I come right up on LinkedIn and happy to engage with folks that want to discuss this further. Absolutely. Matthew Brady on LinkedIn. Okay, we got it. And again, I can't wait for the next part of this. It sounds like we got, it's like almost like a part three, but it'll be a separate combo. Yeah. Good stuff.

So for everyone paying attention and listening, thank you for building this ridiculously fun community of people that are wanting to understand and pursue mastery. And if you aren't part of the Finding Mastery tribe, I encourage you to be part of it. It's on findingmastery.net forward slash tribe. And it's thousands of people supporting and challenging each other to be better and to get better and to understand the nuances of the path of mastery.

And also you can hit us up on social, which is at Finding Mastery on Instagram and then at Michael G us up on social which is at finding mastery on instagram and then at michael gervais on twitter okay matt all the best brother thank you thank you mike see you later okay bye All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already,

please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you

hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional.

So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.