Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Matt Jacobson, Facebook Head of Market Development

Episode Date: October 10, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Matt Jacobson, Head of Market Development at Facebook.In this role, he focuses on strategic partnerships that connect people to some of the world's most recognized brands.Facebook may be one of the world’s largest companies today, but it wasn’t when Matt joined as employee number 8 over 13 years ago.He took a leap of faith at the time – he believed in their mission and their founder, Mark Zuckerberg, and began working for no salary, only equity.You could say that bet paid off.What gave Matt the confidence to join Facebook?His intellectual curiosity has been a driving force for him for since he was young.In this conversation, we discuss how that intellectual curiosity has allowed him to stay ahead of the curve, take risks and opened up new opportunities.Matt understands, values, and invests deeply in relationships so it’s no surprise that his philosophy is: “To be the best part of another person’s day.”What a cool thought._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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one of the first 10 employees there. And now we've got a lot of employees, but the maintaining that cultural DNA has been really important to us. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And my partner in that business is head coach Pete Carroll for the

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That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot.

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out, get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Matt Jacobson. He's the head of market development at Facebook. And in this role, he focuses on strategic partnerships that connect people to some of the world's most recognized brands. And Facebook might be one of the world's largest companies today, but it wasn't that way when Matt joined as employee

number eight. And that was 13 years ago. He took a leap of faith at that time. He believed in their mission and the founder, Mark Zuckerberg, obviously. And he began working for no salary, only equity. You could say that that paid off. And what gave Matt the confidence to join Facebook? What was that? What did he see and spot? And what allowed him to take that risk? That's what this conversation is about. His insights are real and they're rich and he is deep and thoughtful and fun. And this conversation, we jump right down into the core of his intellectual curiosity that's allowed him to stay ahead of the curve, to take risks and to open up new ventures and opportunities to capture those ideas, both in his head and business-wise. So Matt clearly understands values and he invests deeply in relationships. So it's no surprise that his philosophy, flat out, is to be the best part of another person's day. How cool is that? Isn't that a great thought?

That his mission, his guiding principle in his life is to be the best part of another person's day. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Matt Jacobson. Matt, how are you? Great. Happy to be here. I'm ecstatic that you're here. So context for how we first met is that we ended up having a breakfast together. And it was awesome. It was a great conversation. And I couldn't believe how you've come to do what you've done and the places you've been and the influence you've had, and then our common affinity for surf and the surf brands and all that good stuff. So there was just so much to talk about that I wanted to open this up. Yeah, no, it's humbling. I mean, the list of your people you've talked to is impressive. So,

and we share all these weird life hacks too. So that we didn't know about before we had breakfast. Okay, cool. So, so what is the best way for us to capture your history? And so I want to say this really succinctly is what would be useful for me to best understand you? You know, I think, you know, my story is I, you know, I'm a third generation Southern Californian. I grew up in Manhattan beach. I raised my two kids in Manhattan Beach. I've just graduated from college, twin daughters. I probably, if I was going to define myself, it'd be kind of surfer first, right? I think that's probably one of the, that's probably the way you'd probably define me first. And, you know, I've been blessed with a great career. I had a very, you know, kind of went to UCLA, got out of school, wanted to work in the television business and started in the advertising side and kind of went to UCLA, got out of school, wanted to work in the television business and

started in the advertising side and kind of progressed. And so that's how it all started. And just kind of, it's been a bit of a jungle gym, but, but fun. Brothers and sisters? No, I'm only child. Only child. Okay. I want to talk about that because my son is an only child as well. What are some things that I should be aware of? No, it's I, first of all, I think living at the beach, growing up in Manhattan beach in the sixties and seventies, you know,

it was kind of a rugby scrum anyhow. Like we were never, you were never kind of alone, you know? And I think that like this, there are no more free range kids and we were kind of free range kids then, you know, you could, we all kind of worked as a pack and ran around as a pack and that started as little kids surfing when we were, you know, nine, 10 years old, being at the beach all day long, you know? And so I always felt like I had, you know, a group of friends that were always around. I didn't, I think it's, it may be more difficult now or just different in general.

Cause I just don't see like, you know, when was the last time you saw a kid playing baseball, not in a uniform, right. And like that, or even on the sidewalk or in the street or like, you know, when was the last time you saw a kid playing baseball, not in a uniform, right. And like that, or even on the sidewalk or in the street or like, you know, it doesn't happen. Like, you know, we were, we were, you know, kind of just feral and that was the way Manhattan beach was, you know, in the summer. And how did your parents get there? My parents grew up in Venice. They were beach people. Um, they, you know, love the beach. My dad was a volleyball player and surfer. My mom was too. And they moved to Manhattan Beach in the 50s after my dad got out of the Korean War. They graduated from UCLA with my mom and moved to Manhattan Beach because it reminded them of the way Venice used to be because they grew up on the oceanfront in Venice. So they were a bit counterculture. They saw the world just a little different. Yeah. I mean, Venice was not a counter. Venice of the 50s is not Venice of the 70s. What was it like back then? I think it was, if you know the history of Venice was a lot of people moved to Venice from

LA proper to avoid kind of the polio epidemic because living near the ocean was considered to be a healthier place to be. So it was the idea of sea air. And Abbott Kinney, who the street is named, was the original developer of Venice and built Venice to look like Venice, Italy. That's where the canal is off of Washington. But Venice was a suburb of L.A. proper near the beach that you had great access to because the red car was running then. And so access back and forth from L.A. to the beach that you had great access to because the red, the red car was running then. And so access back and forth from LA to,

to the beach was pretty easy. What's the red van? The red car was the original street car. Remember who framed Roger Rabbit? So really? Yeah. So public transportation was a, it's really good.

Who framed Roger Rabbit is a really good history of transportation in LA. The same way Chinatown, you know, the movie was as well. And understanding how, you know, public transportation existed in LA. Okay. With your deep roots and influential roots in tech, how do you know about transportation? Like, why is that? I should probably say, defining who I am, I should say Los Angelino because I love Los Angeles. I love Southern California.

And the history of Southern California has been part of my family forever. So sometimes LA gets a bad rap, right? And a lack of authenticity, moving and shaking Hollywood, the surface, probably Silicon Valley. Not Silicon Valley, but Silicon implant, you know, capital of the world. I think here, Rio and San Diego, Orange County, like, you know, so how do you, how do you speak back to some of those traditional stereotypes? I think LA is, you know, LA is not a place. It's a, you know, a conglomeration of places. And I think, but I think it's a powerful place. And I think if you talk to people who are not in Southern California about Southern California, it's, it has magical,

it's Oz, right? And people think of it that way. And I, you know, I think that California in general gets a bad rap. And I think, you know, I was spent some time, lucky to spend some time with Gavin Newsom, who's running for governor. And he was saying on Saturday night that the values of California are important and they're potent. And we shouldn't kind of shirk this kind of great vibe of an economy that's the fifth biggest in the world that has unbelievable opportunity and a lifestyle that is pretty unequaled. Okay. So how do you get into UCLA? So my parents both went to UCLA. I applied kind of everywhere and, you know, was always kind of a Bruin at heart and got

into other schools and places that I thought, well, we're going to be dream schools. And I ended up at UCLA and loved it. Would you learn, I want to go back one step, would you learn in high school? If there was one or two things that you learned in the high school years? Yeah, I guess I was a, and, and, you know, I'm not as avid a reader as I used to be, but I was a pretty voracious reader in high school. So you learned the value, the love of the written word and books and learning. And I was in, you know, all through public school in Manhattan beach and, you know, being smart was cool then. And I don't know that, I don't know. I don't feel like that, you know, I think, I think the world is different. We can talk about that, but I think that

being smart was cool and there was nothing to be, you know, embarrassed about and kind of having knowledge and, and being smart and being intellectually curious. I think that's probably the biggest lesson I learned. And it was funny because I, yesterday, I got a call from my first grade teacher and Lucy Tommy, who, you know, she was not only my first grade teacher at Grandview school in Manhattan beach, but also my daughter Camille's first grade teacher. So, I mean, those kinds of roots of staying in touch, I mean, she's like, was really, you know, really, really important part of my life. I mean, I, I cannot pick up a pair of scissors today and think about like walking, you know, holding the scissors the proper way that Mrs. Itami taught me to when I was five years old. Is it like you hang on to the tip is down, tip is down. Yeah. And you pass it with

scissors. Right. So, but it's funny because my son is nine and the other day he grabbed the scissors and the care that he had to carry those scissors like it was i've never seen it like that before but i do remember when i was like your age i didn't have maybe such a crisp memory but i remember um like people yelling like no don't hand the scissors that way it was like it was a different experience than what you know it was, it was, you know, teachers have had a big impact on me. You know, I have like, you know, in, you know, grammar school, in junior high, in high school here, there was, you know, there were moments in teachers that I think are really important. And it's been interesting because I've been hosting these series of chats at Facebook, these icons and images series for the last three years.

And it's interesting the through line, you know, whether I talked to Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins will tell you that when he was in high school, it was a high school forensics teacher who encouraged him to take up public speaking. He had no interest. There was a girl in the class that he liked, you know, and that's how he started public speaking.

Alan Hughes, who directed the defiant ones for HBO with, you know, and so good and made men. Yeah. Fantastic. And made Menace a society when he was 19 with his brother, which is a pretty heavy movie. Now he was in school, you know, in a suburb of LA and was encouraged by a video teacher to say, listen, you've got a talent here.

You should do this. Lena Waithe, I interviewed, who's, you know, an amazing Emmy award, one of the first African-American woman to win an Emmy award for comedy writing. It was a fifth grade teacher who said, wow, I really, on the south side of Chicago, he said, I really like the way you write because it sounds like you. And, you know, these are these like inflection point moments for people. And I didn't have one as poignant as any of those. But, you know, I respected learning and cared about learning and cared what my teachers cared about.

So following that thread, is there, uh, it's said that people and experiences shape our lives. And so are there people or a person that has shaped your life or has it been more experiential? No, I, listen, my, my parents are, you know, have been, were unbelievable influences, you know, for me, my father was an amazing guy. Again, a beach guy. Every day he'd come home, get in the water. He was a great body surfer and surfer.

But he was a coat and tie guy every day. He was a very preppy Brooks Brothers guy. And that's kind of what inspired me. And we can talk about that. That is you. Yeah, that's me. Right? Love of the water.

And then, I mean, look at your dress to the max. Yeah, that's like, that's his thing. And I remember, you know, being with him. We went to, you know, he was a big UCLA fan. I remember going up to San Francisco with him as a kid. And we went to, I guess it was the Cal game. And we were in the city and he was in San Francisco and he was wearing a sport coat without a tie. And he goes, man, I guess I just don't feel right.

I remember going with him to J-Press and buying a tie. And like, and there are moments like that. I feel too, like, you know, like I got to have't feel right. I remember going with him to J-Press and buying a tie. And there are moments like that I feel too. Like, you know, I don't have a tie on. Like, I feel. So you're legendary for a lot of reasons. But one of the stories that you share with me was how you fit in at Facebook. Yeah, it's a lonely vigil, as I told you. But, you know, I joined Facebook very early.

It was 13 years for me. So June 15th was my. We actually celebrate our Faceversaries at Facebook, which is pretty great. I don't know any other company that does that. So we celebrate our anniversaries there. When you joined the company? Is that your Faceversary? Yeah, from when you joined. Yes, when you joined the company.

So you're 13 years on? I have 13 years at Facebook. And how old is Facebook? About 14 years. So I was early, one of the first 10 employees there. And now we've got a lot of employees. is Facebook? About 14 years. So I was a early, you know, one of the first 10 employees there. And now we're, we've got a lot of employees, but you know, that, that, you know, kind of the maintaining that, that cultural DNA has been really important to us. But, you know, I met Mark, Mark, you know, I was in my mid forties and, and Mark was 1920 when I first met him and I'd come

out of the surf industry. I'd been working at Quicksilver, you know, running marketing services there and starting the entertainment division there. And, you know, I had spent, you know, five years of wearing ironic t-shirts and board shorts. And I just realized like, that wasn't me. I'd worked in Hollywood for most of my career at 20th Century Fox and at News Corp and, and went to Quick and became, I had, you know, that was not a coat and tie place. And when I got back to Facebook, I said, you know, this is a, this is kind of serious business here. If we're going to make this go, I'm going to take it seriously. And I'm too old to wear ironic t-shirts.

So are you the only one wearing a suit and tie? Oh yeah. Seriously? Yeah. There used to be, there's a tie Tuesday. So guys do wear ties on Tuesday sometimes. So kind of like casual Friday, there was a tie Tuesday. What was the story you told me that you were walking around and people always thought you were a visitor?

Oh, yeah. Security. I was like, you know, where's your badge? You know, like, who are you with? I mean, no, I've been here for a long time. Actually, yeah. Employee, whatever. Yeah. OK, so let's keep going backwards a little bit, though. So then I want to go. I want to go right before high school. Would you learn in that phase? What were the important gems, nuggets, or insights that you look back on that were important to you? Yeah, I think, listen, I learned this love of the beach.

I mean, the beach has been kind of everything to me for, you know, since I was, you know, as long as I can remember. I mean, that's where all my great memories are always at the beach. Is there one particular moment in time that stands out for you? I mean, you know, I'm blessed because I get to, I live like on a typical Saturday now, you know, I live like I did when I was 10 years old. You know, I go down and surf in the morning, lay in the sand, play some volleyball, surf some more, you know, so i'm lucky i've been able to live like that but you know as i there are waves i remember you know when i was 11 years old and

a guy who mattered to me said wow great wave like so like there's moments like that but no the beach has been kind of everything i think the thing that i learned and kind of back to your question about being an only child is the beach is an unbelievable kind of leveler. It's kind of, you know, when you're, you know, when you're at the beach and you're in a pair of board shorts, whether you're nine years old or in your fifties, you know, everybody's kind of equal. You earn your waves, you earn your way on the court. It doesn't matter who you are. And that's, that was a lesson that I learned. It's, you know, it's a, the beach is a real meritocracy. It really is certainly out in the water. It's, you know, the beach is a real meritocracy. It really is.

Certainly out in the water. Yeah. And even if you're in the right position, let's say you get lucky, right? You're in the right position. You get a wave and you're out of sync with the wave. You're ejected. Yeah. No.

And listen, and, you know, it's that first wave. I'm lucky that I surf. I surf. I live pretty much where I grew up. So I surf with some of the same guys I started surfing with when I was, you know, eight, nine years old. And so like, I know, I know between 15th street and Marine street in Manhattan beach. Like I know that, you know, that 150, 200 yards, right. You, you still have to earn your way. I mean, if you, it doesn't matter who I surfed there forever. It's not like a big local scene in Manhattan.

But if you're a kook and you blow a wave, you got to kind of earn your way back in. Yeah, you might not get another wave that session. All right. Okay. So growing up, only child in the same neighborhood as the ancestry from the Los Angeles family crew that you came from. And then you fell in love with learning. That's kind of the high school phases. And then, so college, what are the big takeaways from the college years?

No, that's not, you know, college was great. You know, I've told my daughters who have just graduated, I have a daughter who was a dancer who graduated from Juilliard a year ago and her twin sister graduated from Harvard last month. Look at that, Juilliard and Harvard. So hold on, hold on Harvard last month. Look at that. I told her state. Juilliard and Harvard. So hold on, hold on, hold on. They're good kids.

How does that happen? Yeah, from Manhattan Beach kids, right? So pretty great. So what were some of the takeaways? Because those are two of the finest schools in the world. Yeah, listen, I mean, back to kind of like what, you know, I thought college is like, I realized that college is the last time anybody really cares how you're doing. So I've encouraged them to stay as long as possible in school, but no, I loved it. I thought,

wow, I, you know, I, I found things that I was interested in. I have, you know, I, I have, I started architectural history because there was a great professor there, Tom Hines, who was, he was the really the historian on Neutra and Burnham, so kind of like the Burnham movement in Chicago to Neutra. Before anybody really cared. I'm old, so no one really cared about modernism in the early 80s. And then I weirdly studied Japanese politics because there was an unbelievable professor named Hans Berwald, who I just read passed away, who had worked in Japan after the war, writing the Japanese constitution, which was very, as a young man. So very, if you look at the Japanese constitution, it basically is what the U S constitution would be. If you had 150 years of experience,

what you would do better coalition government, you know, it's, it's very, it's a really good learnings. I said, wow, here's a chance to learn from a guy who was there kind of writing it. So for me, college was interesting because of the serendipity of finding two great, you know, professors, you know, in their disciplines, you know, both architectural history and political science. And that was inspiring to me. And then what did you do to support your daughters? Like, was she interested in dance? Yeah, my daughters have been dancers since they were five years old. And so you guys didn't shape that in any way. It doesn't feel that way. And they discovered dance at an early age and loved it. And I feel really lucky because they're petite and they weren't going to be volleyball

players from Manhattan beach. They weren't going to be lacrosse players or soccer. They, you know, they're those kids that were like, you know that would run away from the ball in soccer. And they found dance and the esprit de corps of being part of a dance company, a traditional ballet company, was really important to them. And I think really shaped them as young women in terms of a sense of responsibility of the esprit de corps, of being part of something. And my daughter Daisy decided that she was going to make that her vocation. And my daughter, Cammie, said, I love dance, but it's going to be my avocation. It's not going to be my vocation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday.

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a little bit of a challenging decision, I would imagine. Yeah, I had a great career. I worked for great companies. I had a great career. You know, I worked for great companies that worked for great people. I worked for, you know, I was at News Corp for and Fox for, you know, really exciting time. And they now we're at Disney very early in my career when I got out of school, like the very this transition of Disney from a family company to kind of the Michael Eisner, Jeffrey Katzenberg era. That was like my first real, you know, studio job. I transitioned from there to Fox right around the time the Fox Network was starting. So I got to be part of, you know, in the room with Barry Diller and John Dolgen and people like that.

And, you know, so that was like I had a great career. And then I stayed at News Corp for a long time and ended up working. You know, James Murdoch was my intern for a summer. And I ended up working for him and, you know, maintained a really great friendship with him and his family. And it's a great, it was a really great opportunity. I had a really great and blessed career and, you know, at Disney and Fox and then working on technology stuff early, really early days, starting in the early nineties at News Corp for Mr. Murdoch.

And, and, you know, from then got very interested in kind of what opportunities were and kind of stayed, you know, before it was fashionable. What did you learn from a legendary Murdoch? Yeah, I think that, you know, he takes a very pure information stream from, you know, a very limited number of people who are either related to him or have worked with him for a long time. And he's built an unbelievable trust with people, you know, that, you know, around him for a long time. And it was an amazing, it's an amazing, it'll change now with the sale of Fox, but, you know, it was an amazing family business. And if you embrace that and realize that you weren't going

to run that company, it was the least political place you could be. Because as long as you were, you know, realize that, you know, my job for a long time was to jump on hand grenades for, for people like James, but you know, the, the ability to do a variety of things and learn a variety of stuff without worrying about like the politics of the jujitsu of, you know, kind of what, how am I going to get ahead? Cause you're not going to, that's their company. So like a big hardware store, it happens to be a giant media company. Oh, look at that. But that's like unbelievably empowering because Hollywood is generally not that way.

It's super political. And I remember a guy told me early in my career that in Hollywood, you don't hope for your friends to fail. You hope for your friends to die. And I think that that, you know, that's probably true. And there's a lot of schadenfreude in Hollywood. And I- What's the phrase? Schadenfreude, you kind of hope for other people to fail.

Wow. And you know what, I've never, is that German? Yeah, that's a thing. It's a German expression about, you know, it is, it's like the kind of hope for people, you know, to fail. And, you know, I, News Corp and Fox at that time was very much about, wow, you know, you know, you want to explore some other things that you want to work on as long as you kind of stick to the stuff you know, you know, you want to explore some other things that you want to work on as long as you kind of stick to the stuff that you're doing. If you want to explore it, I was given great opportunities by Chase Carey, who now runs formula one that kind of embraced. They thought it was wacky, the stuff I was talking about with

technology, but allowed me to pursue that, you know, before, again, before it was fashionable. Is part of your way is to see forward, to see the future of what is either intriguing or interesting or trends that are coming? Is that part of it? Or because you were ahead at Facebook, you're definitely ahead. You're ahead at, you know, well, maybe not Birdwell, but making it something special again, maybe. Yeah, I think intellectual curiosity, it's kind of back to that. Like I always want, I mean, like, you know, I, I, I like, I'm interested in like, you know, kind of solving, you know, equations and learning new stuff. And like, I'm, you know, again, if I'm not, I feel like, you know, I'm, I'm not living up to my full potential.

Okay. So then how do you make that decision to go to Facebook? So I was, you know, I, I was leaving Quicksilver after five years of starting the entertainment division there. It was time to kind of take on, you know, do something else. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And it ended up being that time Quicksilver had been growing really fast and was, you know, ended up making some dough and, but it wasn't, it wasn't like I was not going to have to work again, but I didn't have the pressure of, of having to kind of find something right away and complete serendipity through a mutual friend was introduced to Mark, asking, hey, this thing Facebook.

And, well, I know of it because of the marketing stuff we were doing. This was early days, you know, at Facebook. But Quicksilver, we were kind of obviously on our radar. And it was a college-only site at the time, not even on all U.S. college campuses. So you knew about Facebook while working at Quicksilver? Yeah, because, you know, you heard about it like it was part of the Zeitgeist. But again, incredibly small compared to MySpace and Friendster, which were the kind of leading social networks at the time.

And I met Mark and believed in him and a vision and mission that he had was to make the world more open and connected and bring people closer together by doing that. And that was, I mean, when the first time I talked to him in spring of 05, it was like, I want to build tools to, you know, make the world more connected and bring people together. And that's been consistent. So he had that long. That was his vision from the beginning. At a school?

Yeah, that was his vision. And, you know, I loved that he was committed to that. And I felt like this is the kind of place I wanted to take a chance. And it was interesting because I chose to – the company hadn't been kind of fully formed at the time and I wasn't going to move to Northern California. I'm a native Southern Californian. And my kids were 10 years old at the time and so I wasn't going to move. And, you know, it was a company with seven other people there who were all recently out of, you know, college or kind of left college early or in their late teens or early twenties. And, you know, I had a long resume cause I was old. I was,

you know, more than twice as old as Mark. And it was kind of became this thing like, how are we going to pay you? And I, you know what I said, I believe in what's going on here. And, you know, I'm at a place where, you know, and money has never been the most important thing to me. And I believe in kind of what we're trying to do. I don't really understand what the business opportunity is yet, but let's don't pay me. Let's try it for six months and we'll know in six weeks if it works or not. I want to, I'll work for equity. And it wasn't that I was so cunning, right? It wasn't that I said, well, this is this opportunity to kind of go graze in the vault. You know, it was just the opportunity to be part of something without, if I, when you take money off the table and you can just, I still say, you know, we'll,

I'm going to see if there's a business, like if I can figure out if there's a business here, you know, I'm not going to bother you with that. And like, I'll report back when, when things happen. And that's how we started. It was no pressure on him, really no pressure on me. And it was this great freedom to kind of, you know, the very early days was become an amazing company to, to be part of it. And was that six weeks to six months? What were you looking for? To see what the business opportunity was, you know, with, you know, how, you know, how will this scale? Can you build an ad business on this? Can we, you know, at the time ad deals

were very small and, but could you scale, you know, we didn't have the infrastructure to do thousands of deals that were small. So the goal was to find, could we find a couple of bigger deals to work on? And what were some of the decisions that you grappled with as an early employee that set the ship up in just the right way? So, I mean, again, you know, Mark and the early team there were incredibly smart, you know, beyond their years, savvy, really good listeners. I think this, you know, Facebook has been a listening culture from the beginning. Mark is amazing in that his kind of listen to talk ratio is probably four to

one, which can be unnerving, but powerful, right? And he just, you know, he listens. And I think that for me, it was how can I build a culture around the things that matter to me, humble partnership, transparency, trust, honesty, empathy. And it had been part of the DNA of Facebook, you know, on, you know, as company wide, but particularly in the sales and marketing side, you know, from the beginning. What did, what did you, what do you look back and think their crown jewel was at the time? And then what is it now? And then I'm curious, like when you look at your career there, what has been the place that you put your flagpole and say, I feel pretty good about making this influence in this company? Yeah, I think, listen, being part of a mission-driven company.

So that got you going early. Yeah, to me. I mean, that's everything. And there's other ways to run companies. There are companies that aren't mission-driven. They're process-driven companies. Or bottom-line driven. Well, they're process-driven.

They say, okay, we have a way of doing things so we can apply to a lot of different things. You know, Facebook's mission was to do that thing, to make the world more open and connected. And that was the filter by which we did everything, you know, that we did. And we felt that making connecting people to brands was as important as connecting people to those in their lives that matter to them. So I think mission driven, being mission driven and thinking in the terms of mission strategy and tactics, which is the way I always kind of think about things is powerful. So to me, that structure, and I also realized, and Mark was very open about it when we first met, Mark and a guy named Matt Kohler was a really dear friend of mine and a great venture capitalist now in Silicon Valley. We were either going to change the world or it was

going to be over quickly, right? Which were like, those are the two best outcomes. You're going to be part of something that's, that's mighty and powerful, or you're going to go down guns blazing quickly. So how does that happen? How do you know, like, does that mean that you're going to place big bets that you're going to put a lot of resources in one place or like, why would it go down blazing? Well, I think, you know, you, you know, again, there are these companies at the way? Well, I think, you know, you, you know, again, there are these companies at the time, there were companies that were, you know, just kind of like, you know, circling the drain for a long, long time. And that wasn't of interest to me or to anybody else there. We were going to like, we were, it was going to be big and meaningful,

you know, on all levels. And I'm not talking about just revenue, just, we were going to be impactful, right. We're going to change the world kind of stuff, you know, or we were going to get out of the game. How involved are you now? Very. I mean, that's my, you know, again, I, I really feel like right now I'm doing the most impactful, meaningful, you know, enjoyable work that I've ever, that I've done in all the time I've been there in my whole career. Okay. What does that process look like for you to make your work be meaningful? Like how do you do that? That's the stuff I want to learn. Like I, so I have no idea what your day-to-day rhythms look like or week to week or month to month.

So how do you create that meaningful engagement on a day-to-day basis? So the stuff, I mean, I, it doesn't matter what I'm working on. Like, you know, I take an approach to it that, you know, there's a Japanese. I spent a lot of time in Japan in the last four years. I think it's 13 or 14 trips in the last four years, you know, on Facebook business. And I love it there. Which parts? In Tokyo, Kyoto.

I've been out in the boonies. And, you know, my wife has learned to speak you know passable enough japanese that we can really explore yeah it's great have you been to mount hiei no you haven't you want do you want to yes i want i want to you know listen i want to i want to know as much about japan and explore parts of japan as you know as i can and i love it but there's this idea that shokunin which is this you know i guess a direct translation is kind of craftsman or artisan. But I don't think that really captures it all. It's more about being the best version of yourself and being the best at doing whatever you're doing at the moment that you're doing it.

And I think I try to extend that and say, try to be a little bit better every day. So to me, it's like, I just want to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday at the things that I'm doing. And to me, that's like, I just want to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday at the things that I'm doing. And to me, that's really, that's inspiring. Yeah, it is. And because that process is something that you can potentially master on a regular basis. Like, you know, like, I don't know if we ever really master it, you know, but the idea that I can get better at this thing that I'm doing, whatever this is, what are you working on now? Like, what are some of the skills that you're working on? Yeah. I mean, for like, personally, I think, you know, from a, you know, a culture standpoint, you know, I think that's really important as we kind of spread our culture at Facebook, we have got really, you know, kind of key core values that, you know, kind of really inform, you know, kind of who we are and the company's growing fast. I mean, you know, 50%

of our employees have been there 18 months or less, and that will continue for the foreseeable future. And so as you grow, well, no, we're not turning over. We're just adding people. Oh, you're adding. Yeah. No, these are not people leaving. These are people. This is all adding. So maintaining that culture and being able to kind of thread that cultural DNA. Okay. I love this. How do you do that? How do you, is it an onboarding? Is it something that takes place where they can learn or are you pre-selecting for people that have the right? We're really good at the onboarding, right? We do. And we're rigorous about onboarding and, you know, making sure that people understand kind of what we stand for and, and getting hired is a

rigorous process. It is there as well. But I think, you know, again, I think a lot of it comes through leadership and through action. You know, I think you can't tell somebody what the culture is. You need to see people acting in a way. And we've got, you know, being part of a listening culture, you know, means that a lot of times we have hard conversations and we really, you know, Sheryl Sandberg has talked about this and, you know, and publicly that this idea of having hard conversations and putting stuff on the table early, you know, can be uncomfortable, but it's the way you kind of cut through a lot of the bullshit and you get people kind of focused on what are the right things. And I'm a very much a water under the bridge guy and I don't hold grudges. And if I'll, you know, say, listen,

this isn't cool. This is not the way we do it. Making people feel less than or other than any way is not the way we operate. Whether it's the way you talk to a client or the way you talk to a cross-functional partner or the way you talk to a peer, not cool. And I want you to know that. I'm not your father. I'm not your boss, but I'm a colleague. I just want you to know that's not the way we operate. And those conversations at all levels of the company, we encourage people to have those hard conversations often. You have a unique vantage point on what you've come to see as a global footprint in modern day technology. Like it's really unique, your point of view. And you're saying culture is one of the greatest accelerants at Facebook. And what you just described is the relationships between people.

So you've inoculated, it sounds like, arrogance, people being condescending to each other. And so you're inoculating it by saying, no, no, no. That's not how we operate. That isn't. Okay. And listen, I learned that early. Like I said, I told you my experience at News Corp was not a, you know, that was not a political environment. And I've never seen people actually get ahead by being political, you know, and I always think that,

you know, I always, and listen, it doesn't matter where, what company, what you're doing, people tend to think about their bosses more than their bosses think about them, you know, and people generally are not, you know, their boss doesn't have an epiphany and then you're fired. It's usually the way you treat those who work with you and for you. And I think the beautiful thing right now, and I being the father of 23 year old daughters, I think the world right now, the era of bullies and assholes is over and people don't settle for being treated in a way that early in my career was like, that's just you put up with it. Right. And I think I'm very proud and happy that we have a culture at Facebook that allows people to not be in that

kind of environment. People choose their leaders at Facebook. So your boss may not be your leader. You always want your boss to be your leader, but it may not be. And people look for those North stars and they look at people's actions and how they want to, you know, kind of live their life and interact with those around them. So you have extraordinary relationships as well. Like you have been able to meet people that have done amazing things. Can you walk through how that comes to be for you? I'm talking about global thinkers and doers that are extraordinary at what they do. Yeah. Again, I think being intellectually curious matters. I watched the Tony Robbins documentary.

And I had no context for Tony Robbins as a person. I watched, I think it was a Netflix documentary and I watched it with my mom and my wife and like three generations here, right? Cause we're, you know, we're all, we have big gaps for all three of us and we were all just completely, like we were pretty spellbound by him and this documentary. And so I, I called a friend of mine as soon as it was over, I called a friend of mine. As soon as it was over, I called a friend of mine who I know knows him. I said, I got to meet him. I got to meet this guy.

Like no agenda. I didn't want, I just want to meet him because this is powerful stuff. And so I did. And no, he's like, and he was like, you know, kind of exceeded expectations. And then is that a pattern that you have in your life that you've come connected to some idea or a concept or a person and then you say, somehow I want to meet that person? Yeah, I mean, I'm not like, you know, some cleat chaser like that wants to, you know, that, you know, like I'm looking for pelts, right? You know, but I, you know, I like interesting people that have a point of view and, you know, I think particularly around storytellers, you know, I've got, you know, the Alan Hughes discussion

around defiant ones. I mean, it's an amazing, that's an, that, that's the, that's like kind of his, you know, an amazing body of work in that that's apocalypse now, right. For, for Alan Hughes. And we become friends because of that. We really kind of we we met we bonded over our chat at ces this year and he's just a really interesting guy with great and a great storyteller and has unbelievable perspective about being in la at a time that was an important time

in la i mean he learned he learned kind of you know how to kind of marketing, filmmaking, and storytelling from EZE. I mean, he had his summer of EZE where he rolled around in an all-white BMW 750 or 850 around L.A., and that's how he learned storytelling. And he worked with tupac and and he has a great perspective lena waithe same thing i said well this is an amazing person you know i don't know if you've seen the thanksgiving episode of master of none it may be the best i haven't seen that it's an amazing 30 minutes of television it's basically lena's coming out story but it's told in such an amazing way. It's an important, poignant moment in television that I think I can only imagine how thankful so many people were for that,

you know, to have her provide a voice to people who haven't had a voice before. So those are the kind of people I care about. You know, I think that, again, interesting points of view, care about things, are passionate. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality

personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What do you do to protect yourself against fatigue? Because you're ripping and running. Yeah, I'm a big, you know, I listen, I'm a big hacker, life hacker, you know. You know, so that's my whoop band that I have on my bicep. So how long have you been using the technology? Yeah, about three months.

My friend Tony Bertone, who's been been involved the company from the beginning he's an old friend of mine and told me about it you know in the early days and like i didn't you know i i kind of didn't want more stuff like there's like i don't like i don't like things you have to charge right yeah i want the friction on that can be overwhelming i don't like the overhead right and well this just felt like, this is a cool thing. And I like the whole idea of kind of, you know, being able to kind of measure like, you know, kind of data, kind of data centric. And I like being able to measure stuff. So I really like, I just, I've been, I was gone for two weeks and didn't take it with me because I didn't want to carry the charger with me and I missed it.

And now I have to build up my whole thing again. Yeah, there's a psychology, like, I don't know. I look, one of the early things I do in build up my whole thing again. Yeah. There's a psychology. Like, I don't know. I, I look one of the early things I do in my mornings. Yeah. How'd you do?

Yeah. How'd I do? And then I'll send screenshots and texts to my buddies about like, I kicked your ass on sleep or my strain, my strain metric was high. No, I mean, I listen,

I, I, there was a company called Zio and like the early days, I remember, yeah. I had like a headband. Yeah. Which was really creepy. And I used to, I. They had a headband, which was really creepy.

I wore the Zio headband for a while. Did you sleep with it? Yeah, I'd sleep with that. It's interesting because I had, yes, kind of how I do it or how I can manage it. I was having trouble. All of a sudden, three years ago, I was having sleep problems where I was – I could fall asleep quickly and I would wake up two hours to the minute from when I went to sleep. If I went to bed at 10, I'd be up at midnight. If I went to bed at 11, I'd be up at 1.

And it wouldn't last long but I'd just be up for – I'd wake up and I'd be like – try to avoid solving the world's problems so I could go back to sleep. So it would be like 15 minutes. But that's a, that's a skill actually to recognize that your mind's about to jump on a handrail and then get off it. That's a, that's a slippery slope for me. Do you get out of bed or would you stay in bed?

No, I'll stay in bed. Like once that's, you know, kryptonite, right? If you get out of bed, then for me,

it actually resets. So if I'm sleeping in bed and I just get caught and caught thinking, thinking, thinking, I'm like, wait, hold on. I got to reset this thing.

I get out of bed. I'll just take a little lap around my room and then go back in. So I had this thing and it would go on. I'd wake up three times a night and it was awful. Brutal. Awful. Sleep disorder. Yeah.

So I was talking and it was crazy because it was every two hours. It was like to the minute, right? And so I was talking to my doctor who's a very old school internist but very modern and eastern in the way that he he thinks he's you should go talk to this hypnotherapist i know and i said well that sounds you know weird right but okay like there's something super powerful so i went and saw this great hypnotherapist named Cynthia Morgan. And I went and saw her and told her what my issue was. And she said, I can deal with that.

And I saw her. Again, what's nice about that, it wasn't like, it's not like chiropractic where you have to kind of, it's like forever. This is like, okay, like in five, I think like in five sessions, we can like sort this out. And so she made me recordings that are on my iPhone. And I've listened to those recordings thousands of times. I can't tell you anything on any of those recordings beyond close your eyes, take three deep breaths, and then I'm out. It works. It's working for you.

It cured my, this, I don't i don't have insomnia or this like waking up problem that now i sleep through the night and if i if i feel like oh my god like it's gonna happen i just listen to one of her tapes and so that intellectual curiosity thing is there for you again because you have a pattern of pushing against some cultural accepted practices and hypnosis is not right that's not like that's not most people would say take medication you know they backfill a lot of other things before they'd say go to a hypnotherapist so you've got a counterculture way about you yeah i guess i'm i'm open to like you know any and all ideas what kind of music do you listen to you know like i i'm

a i'm a i'm an old school hip-hop guy there was i went through years like i had to listen you don't look like an old school hip-hop guy in your fancy you know it's funny because like i i went for probably a 10-year period where i had to listen to some biggie every day and you know i was getting these huge what is it about it that music yeah and i was vindicated by the if you've seen the Biggie documentary about what an amazing kind of person he was, you know, and a real lyricist, you know, at a time. I mean, he and Tupac died in their early 20s. I mean, these guys did not have long lives. You know, amazing lyricist, amazing storyteller that, you know, with an amazing mom, by the way,

part of the story that I had, that I had never known. But no, I think that, you know, again, there was, you know, a lot of that early hip hop was, I think, incredibly melodic. A lot of the stories, incredibly poignant, you know, and I think that a lot of current hip hop is pretty lazy. And I think that there was a moment there where it mattered so okay uh instagram your relationship there instagram is you know again this amazing company that we bought that i've embraced is i think it's just a fantastic tool you know giving people a visual language with which to talk i think now with stories you, which has become such a huge use case for so many people on Instagram, that giving people these tools to tell stories often anonymously. And you think about how radical that was.

I mean, you remember it wasn't that long ago that people said, I'm not putting pictures on the Internet. I don't want anybody to see my pictures on the Internet. Instagram is based on putting pictures on the internet. I don't want anybody to see my pictures on the internet. Instagram is based on putting pictures on the internet. You know, it's very interesting in places like Japan, you know, where there isn't a culture. Japan doesn't have like a show and tell culture, right? You would never as a child in Japan go in front of your class and share, you know, the shell you found on your vacation.

That just doesn't exist. So this idea of sharing anonymously on instagram is incredibly powerful why do you say anonymously because you don't have to use your real identity yeah you don't have to and a lot of people do a lot of people do a lot of people don't yeah and a lot of listen a lot of people follow people they don't know there's an anonymity there right as well yeah i think that it's just powerful i listen i'm a photographer and i've been a photographer for you know forever And I love imagery and I love being able to tell stories and in whether in a still image or in a short video clip. And that's powerful to me. Where do you think Instagram is going? the iteration that that team is doing on a product standpoint has been powerful. And we launched

IGTV, which is a, you know, a new kind of, you know, watch surface. And it's a platform where people can create long form video. All right. So yeah, good. So Facebook, Instagram, Birdwell. Yeah, Nelson, you know, again, as I said, my, my dad wore Birdwells, you know, the company started in 1961. Birdwells are what i wore it's a surf brand yeah folks you know the last surf trunks made in in america are they really yeah yeah and and they're like that there's a classic look to birdwells yeah they're a little short right a little well we have it you know it's funny because we we make them in three lengths for for guys i would never have known that yeah we had three lengths and the shorter length is actually our most popular length now yeah for sure and you know i the real beauty

of birdwell listen it took me 15 years to get that brand you know we chased that brand from my really good friend and business partner not as coppice i was an ex pro skater invented the ollie and just a really great guy and and he he and, he and I worked together at Quicksilver and we were in Hong Kong and we were like musing on God, if you could own a brand, what would it be? And we both said Birdwell. And so we spent from that day forward trying to figure out a way to get that brand. So how'd you get it? You know, we waited, waited, waited persistence, right? There was a guy early. I met a, a guy early on who was a a business school colleague of a facebook colleague of mine and so i wanted to be in the surf industry i said you really don't

unless you could own birdwell and he's like you know i i get it and i said well if you can figure out how to get him to sell it we'll figure out how to buy it and he was relentless he went kind of weekly for a year and one day was the day and, and that was it. Are you guys partners? He's now left. He was our first CEO and, and the business started scaling very, very fast. And is it mostly online now? Yes. We can, we took that business from a, from a wholesale business to, you know, 90% direct to consumer. What I love about it is like, you can go online and customize your gear, right? You can say, I want my stripes this way or that way. I want my stripes to be this color, that color button or patch. And yeah, that's, and you, you, again, Jeff Clawson is the CEO

of Birdwell now, who is a guy I'd hired at Facebook 10 years ago and, and is a, you know, is a fantastic operator. You know, he had run a lot of the online business for Wamuu and then JP Morgan Chase and I recruited him to Facebook and he did amazing work there and got involved with Birdwell originally with me. And then we were looking for a new CEO and he raised his hands and said, I'm the guy to do it. And we've taken that business and he has taken that business to unbelievable levels. When, when we first bought the company, there were, there were weeks and months when that, when that factory was open one day a week. And we had employees that had been there for 40 years that were still hanging

in there on one day a week. And now we're working double shifts. So, you know, it's fantastic. And, and from an operational excellence standpoint, things like being able to customize product. You've listened to Warren Buffett talks about building a moat around your business. Customization is a moat for the Birdwell business because it's something that a foreign-made brand can't do. You can't do it. But when you're making stuff in Santa Ana, in the same factory we've been in, and you want to add a button or a stripe or a patch

to your product, you know, and we'll ship it, you know, within two days, that's, that's pretty special. Yeah, that's great. So that's, you know, it's been really good. And it's also, you know, if we knew anything as kind of people, we knew the online business and we knew that e-commerce could be powerful. And we knew the relationship with a direct relationship with customers by not being disintermediated by retail for what we were selling mattered. I think we were unique in that you either knew of Birdwell and loved it or you never heard of it. And so it didn't have any there was no hair on the brand. Right. Yeah. So in the surf world, I think people recognize it, but outside of the surf world, you know, it might be a new, new thought. Yeah, no, it isn't. The thing that's amazing is how,

you know, popular the brand is not in this thin line of coast around the country, you know, you know, you know, states like Virginia and Texas, you know, are our biggest, some of our biggest states. And I think for a lot of people, I mean, the fact that we make, you know, again, it's a, it's a mission driven company making purpose built, high quality product that's guaranteed for life. I mean, you tell someone your bathing suit is guaranteed for life, you know, that's me. And we know from 57 years of, of making this product, you can't wear this stuff out. And so for a lot of people, 79 or 89 or $99 is a considered purchase. Right. And if I think for some people, you know, this is,

it's justified by the fact that these don't wear out and it says something about, I mean, you know, we were lucky. I think men's journal referred to them as the 501s of the beach. And I guess what I like to think of them, right. It's like a minor buying a pair of Levi's, you know, that for if you're a waterman, if you're a lifeguard, if you're a surfer, a paddler in Hawaii, you know, that bird wells are a tool. How do you finish this thought? My philosophy is to be the best part of another person's day. Where does that live in you when you say that? That, and listen,

that's to me, like you think about it, those are the things I like, that's one of the things I meditate on. Right. I think about, where did that just happen for you? Cause you just said it and I felt everything you just said. No, I, I, I think about that all the time. Yeah. And when I manage teams at Facebook and one of the KPIs, you know, that we had for, you know, for their review was be the best part of another person's day. You know, and it's the advice I give people all the time, make you a better father, I'll make you a better son, we'll make you a better employee, employer. It's just a good life lesson. And, you know, it's really, to me, I want my interactions to be positive, you know, and to have positive impact on the people I come in touch with.

How come? That's why I want my legacy to be. That you made a difference in others. Yeah. That I, you know, that I care. Deep in few or across many? Anybody. Like, you know, I'm. And where does that live? I'm going to say that. I want to ask that again. Where does it live inside of you? Do you feel it in your heart and your stomach and your chest and your body and

your throat and your behind your eyes? Yeah. I mean, it's not, listen, again, it's not lip service, right? Right. Cause when you said it, I, I could see it and feel it. Yeah, no, I, it's, it's, it's really true. I mean, I think to me, that's like the, the greatest gift you can give somebody is to be a great part of their day, you know? And it doesn't mean like, you know, it doesn't mean that kind of, you know, being like sappy or, you know, you know, it doesn't mean that it means you having being genuinely interested, engaged, you know, coming with solutions, not problems. You know, when people see you come into the room, you know, you know, you maybe bring an answer instead of a question, you know, that listen, everybody's busy.

And so I encourage people all the time say listen just you know if you're going to focus on one thing be the best part of another person's day that's pretty rad i've never heard anybody say that yeah i don't i don't really know where like how i started thinking about that yeah but it's a listen it's a good like if somebody like i told my daughters that like you know i, you know, if you want to understand, like if you want to know like what I think when you go to work and whether one's a dancer and the other is just graduated from school. And she was working at the Harvard Lampoon, which was like being part of a business at Harvard. And I said, just be the best part of your client's day, be the best part of your partner's day, you know, the people you work with. So shifting gears, like how do you think

about confidence? Yeah. I don't think of myself as being particularly confident. You don't know more doubtful than confidence. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, and it's, it's, again, it's something, you know, that I meditate on. It's like, you know, I, I don't want to like, you know, I, I want to be, I want to be confident, but I don't want to be hubristic. And that's a hard one to kind of balance. And so I try to, again, I feel like I've got a lot of self-doubt. And I question, but I think it's healthy to question the kind of your decisions and vet my decisions. I admire people that are supremely confident and kind of own the room

and like, you just know when you listen and they, they know they're right. Like that's not really, you know, I don't, not really who I am. What do you do when you recognize doubt in your head? I, I talk to people who's who I trust to get their point of view. Okay. And then when there's no one around, what do you do with that thought? Those types of thoughts. I will always err on the side of goodness. Okay. So then as you're trying to figure out a decision,

that's an easy model, like err on the side of doing good. But then how about when there's no decision, but you're just thinking about something? I mean, I guess thinking about something always, I need to think about it for a second, but I imagine that thinking about things always, there's always some outcome, right? You're going to have some action, you know, so there's, there's usually probably a choice of actions, you know, and if I'm completely befuddled, I guess I would err on the side of goodness. But I can't think of like, oh, I was thinking about this thing and I had like this terrible thought and there was no other outcome other than like this one. Except that one thought. I got to think about something else. Is it hard to be in your head or easy to be in your own head?

No, I try to still my mind as much as possible. What does your practice look like? It's a daily meditation practice that isn't – again, it's not hours. It's 20 minutes a day. It's the first thing I do when I get up. I think stilling your mind is powerful. And so is it nonjudgmental awareness? Is it more of a focus training where you're breathing and focus on one thing instead of both of them?

It starts with the breathing meditation. I used to, which was effective to me, and I stopped doing it because it was kind of counter to the still in your mind part is i would meditate often on things that were going to happen that day that i knew were going to happen and i would think through visual it really was a form of visualization imagery yeah right that i would know so when they happened i would have already experienced it and i would be able to kind of be more i'd be wiser and what the outcome you know of that conversation target too right and sensations or targets so how long you've been doing that 20 years 20 years and then how'd you get exposed to it does this have some of the eastern influence yeah i know i remember i just remember thinking it was interesting i had those awful meditation tapes I told you about with the airplane in the background, no headspace.

But yeah, to me, it just feels right. And then I was lucky. I found the Mahamudra Kadampa Buddhism Center here in South Bay. It's an amazing place. And Tangpa, who is the teacher there, is the monk who leads the practice there. Are you practicing Buddhism? I guess, you know, in spirit, you know, so for sure. You know, I have trouble always getting around the, you know,

what was I in a past life? But I think most people do, like when you kind of are new to Buddhism. But again, it's more to me a practice of how i kind of want to live i think these ideas of ridding myself of self-grasping ignorance and kind of not looking at the world for my own belly button all the time and you know understand one of the hardest lessons that i think about all the time is you know separating yourself from actions that your thoughts aren't real right they're you know, you kind of think that you have superpowers, like when you think something that's true. And so separating yourself from those thoughts is, is mighty. My wife is very good at doing that and has been very good at encouraging me to do that.

If we were able to measure and observe thoughts one day, let's just say we could actually see thoughts and then we could have this basic tally at the end of the day, positive, negative, productive, destructive, whatever, like labels we put on it, but thoughts that create goodness and thoughts that get in the way of goodness or even worse than that. Right. So where would you imagine you are on that scale? Is it 80, 20? Is it 70, 30? Is it 50-50? Is it actually worse than you think it is sometimes? No, I try to, again, I always assume good intent, right? And so if I'm faced with somebody or something that feels like not right, a really good way around that is to assume good intent. And so if I can embrace that and I try to embrace empathy, then I understand.

You know what? It's not like the story in my head. There's a great quote that I share all the time, which is, the thing that screws us up most in life is the story in your head of how it's supposed to be. And I'm struggling with that right now with a relationship for sure. Yes. But you have the story in your head and it's very'm struggling with that right now with a relationship for sure. But you have, you have the story in your head and it's very hard to break that. And so I remind myself of

that all the time. And so what do you do with that? I think a lot of these tools that I talked about, assume good intent, you know, try to be positive. And what if that I'm trying to be positive, I'm assuming best intent, but the patterns are not changing at all. And there's been communication that those patterns, like, like it's not working. The, the, the pattern of behavior is not working. And like, so how do you deal with that? If you've communicated to somebody that says, Hey, listen, this isn't quite working. It's not the way that we would hope it would be. It's not working for me. And they say, yes, yes, yes, yes. We'll do better. We'll do better. And that doesn't change.

Well, but you know, he's like, again, it's another kind of a Buddhist way of thinking about things is that I believe that everybody ultimately wants to be happy. But just a lot of people don't know how to get there. And so I don't think you can change people a lot. I've seen people change. So I would say it's not impossible. But I think helping people find the path, like, like, what is it that you really want? Like, what is it? What are the things you think will make you happy?

And let's figure out a way for you to get there, which is much better than arguing with somebody whether they're right or they're wrong. Yeah. Because, I mean, everybody and every being wants to be happy. So I feel like self-actualized in some way. So. Okay. So morning practice about 20 minutes. And is it time-based or is it like state-based? It's over. It's over for you. You've got some patterns where you're assuming goodness and you're erring on the side of goodness, like assuming best intent and erring on the side of goodness. And how about nutrition? How do you think about your nutrition?

No, I think about it a lot. I think I've, I've told you before, I don't, you know, I haven't for a long time, I haven't shared it, but I'm, I'm a pancreatic cancer survivor. So I, I, you know, luckily it's been, you know, 12 years. So, you know, I'm kind of way on the other side of that. And, but, you know, yeah, thank you. And diet was really important. You know, I mean, kind of, I had a, what's called a Whipple procedure, which is a, a complicated operation that kind of screws up a lot of your, you know, intestinal transit. And so being careful about what I've eaten, you know, what I eat is important. I worked with Chris Talley, who I know is a friend of yours, um, who really helped me kind of get, you know,

my arms around that. And, you know, I try to be smart, you know, and how I eat, you know, I'm, I'm one of the few people you meet in LA who is actually gluten intolerant, not just because it's not because it's fashionable. Um, no, but I've, that's, you know, I, and so I've, I've changed the way I eat, you know, a lot because of that. And that's been amazing. And it's like, for real, you've been using athletic greens as well yeah i have been yeah i think i actually think that chris the kiwi is like the the greatest and i know you have a relationship with him but like he is absolutely the greatest online marketer and people ask me who is a great online you know relationship marketer chris the kiwi he's done a

great job that's unbelievable yeah but his product has value. Like real value. It's solid. Yeah. It almost tastes too good to be like – so sometimes I'll say it can't be that good because it tastes too good relative to what other vegetable powder tastes like. Well, it doesn't taste like a strawberry banana shake. No, but it tastes better than like green vibrance, which I've also drank, which I think has to be good for you because it doesn't taste good at all. Yeah. No. And the micro macronutrients inside of it are solid like they've done their job did you enjoy chris's conversation on the podcast yes you know in the fun yeah great job unbelievable yeah both both chris's chris tally as well the gentle giant yeah he's unbelievable so yeah is

it does he make your food for you he has in the the past. And I think, you know, I, not anymore. I travel a lot. And so that's what happens to me. I've been flowed there too. Yeah. And I just, and I always had that moment where it's like, you know, like you come home and like, there's four things in there you haven't eaten. And you're like, Oh, I feel so guilty. So, um, no, but I, I learned a lot from him, but I'm a creature habit. Like I, again, I'm like, I'm like, you know, people think that dogs want to eat different things all the time. Dogs want to eat the same thing all the time. I'm like a dog.

I eat the same. I, I'll eat, I'm happy eating the same stuff all the time. Okay. So sleep matters. Eating matters. You're thinking structures about doing good and, and, and Aaron on that side. And you've got a clear philosophy. You've got your mission minded and have a very clear vision for the future.

And I want to articulate that in a minute. Optimism. Is that an important variable for you? Yeah, I'm an optimist. Flat out. Yeah, I'm an optimist. You don't hesitate. No, I mean, listen, and there are moments I get shaken, right? I think the world is a complicated place right now. And there are moments you can, you can get sucked in and, and, and feel, you know, pessimistic easily. But I, you know, again, I am an optimist and I, you know, that's easily. But I, you know, again, I am an optimist and I, you know, that's the only way I can try to operate because again, it's a slippery slope because, you know, you will find all kinds of people who will help you on the, go the other way. Right. People are great enablers of pessimism. So when I talk about optimism, pessimism, I can

feel it. I'm an optimist as well. And, you know, there's lots of trainings that you can do if you're struggling with pessimism or doubt, or, you know, they can, they can help you be more optimistic on a regular basis, but I can feel it when I talk to people about it. And there's this eye rolling thing, like, Oh, here we go. Like, here's the, here's the soft conversation coming. Whatever we're supposed to all hold hands to. No, but again, it's back to that kind of basic you know the basic buddhist tenet of like all people want to be happy and they just don't know how to get there yeah so i mean if you know i call it kind of the over the cliff bear hug right you know people have like an idea and they want you to become part of that idea

and it can be a negative idea and if you don't embrace it like they want to take you down with them right there's like strength in numbers in doing that. And so I try to avoid the over the cliff bear hook. This is, I think a relatively tough question, but how do you define high performance as a human? High performance as a human? I mean, again, I think it goes back to those basic things. I want to be, I want to be the best part of another person's day. I want to be a little bit better at the things I do every day. And that's high performance to me. What if the output is not world-class or world-leading or even regionally significant? I mean, I don't think I've done anything that is world-leading, regionally significant, but I'm

incredibly at peace with the things I do. I'm proud of my interactions with others. I'm proud of the impact I've had on the people that I work with and have come into contact with. I think mentoring, you know, is, is really important to me. And I think I've made positive impact, you know, in formal mentoring as well as informal. And that's a way, I mean, that's the scorecard. It's not, it's not like, you know, did I win an award? It's certainly not money, you know, cause I think that's, again, it's just scorecard. It's not, it's not like, you know, did I win an award? It's certainly not

money, you know, cause I think that's, again, it's just a tool. You know, that's, that's what I wanted from you in this experience is to celebrate the soul of you. You're an intellectual, like you think deeply and critically, but your soul is a palatable. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah right but but but there's something really charming about the way that you care and that you can think critically and when we first met i was like i want to go further ah thank you listen coming from you that's a is a huge compliment because you thank you you mean you you know again it's it's humbling to look at the list of people you've talked to and that you work with. And, you know, again, I'm, you know, I'm an okay surfer, a middling athlete, you know, but I'm healthy and I'm able to do the things I want to do. And I'm stoked to like, you know, as employee less than 10. Is there a number? Eight. Employee number eight at Facebook. I mean, come on.

And then influencing the influence you've had on Instagram as well. And I don't know the size of that, but I just know that from reputation that you've had an influence. Thank you. Yeah. And then being able to carve up a brand that, you know, like you fell in love with early days. Yeah. That's been really so great to own a business and see, you know, employ people and, and have great, a great team there. You know, the team that runs that business is, is mighty. Okay. Last couple of questions. What is your definition or how do you articulate mastery? I guess, you know, again, it comes back,

we've kind of, you've asked that same question a couple of different ways. For me, you know, again, it's not about, it's about the journey, not the destination. And so for me is, you know, am I doing better today than I did yesterday and whatever it is that I'm working on? Did I leave things better than I found them? Did I have a positive influence and did I make a positive influence? Was I a better part of somebody's day than they normally would have had? So where can folks follow you? I want to say Birdwell because everyone listening is on Facebook and engaging on Instagram. Yeah. Listen, my Instagram is my, is my, is my jam. I mean, I, like I said, I'm a photographer and, and so I love my Instagram account and I try to curate it well.

And I think it speaks to a lot of my passions. And so my... What's the handle again? MFJ20TH. So I'll tell you where that comes from. When I was at Fox in the early days, before we had corporate email, I set up an email account for the people in the television division on AOL. So everybody was there. Initials 20th on AOL. So everybody was there.

Initials, 20th at AOL.com. 20th. Yeah, for 20th Century Fox. Right. So I kept my MFJ 20th as my handle. And then Birdwell.com? Yeah. So you can go to Birdwell.com and look at what the guys are doing there.

It's good stuff. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your soul. Thank you for your critical thinking. Thank you for being able to unpack the clarity of what drives you. And there's no doubt that it's about doing good for the world. Yeah, thank you.

Doing good for others. Yeah, I hope so. That's why I hope people feel that way. Yeah, cool. Better than the alternative. Yes. And everyone, thank you for listening. Thank you for paying attention to what we're doing here.

You can find us on Instagram at Finding Mastery. You can find us on my Instagram as well as Michael Gervais. Do you know about our tribe? Have you said, Oh, it's on Facebook on using your platform. And we've got thousands and thousands of people that are supporting and challenging each other on a regular basis on the tribe. It's unbelievable. Like they've, they've took this community and lit it up and it's so Facebook has done a great job for us there as well. Thank you. Yeah,

for sure. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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