Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Meb Keflezighi, Long Distance Runner

Episode Date: August 28, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Meb Keflezighi, the only runner in history to win the Boston Marathon, the New York City Marathon and an Olympic medal.Known all over the world by his first name, Meb is a four-time Olympian and history’s oldest marathoner to qualify for the US Olympic team.Meb was born in the East African nation of Eritrea, a beautiful land torn by war at the time of his birth.He arrived in Southern California at age 12 without knowing a word of English.Through running, Meb attracted national attention and earned a scholarship to UCLA, where he won four NCAA titles.The crowning moment of Meb’s career came on April 21, 2014 at the Boston Marathon.One year after bombs detonated at the finish line, Meb won the race in a stunning and unexpected fashion.His patriotic victory - the first for an American man since 1983 - sparked an avalanche of media and celebration. President Barack Obama placed a phone call to Meb hours after the race.Today, Meb is Runner’s World Magazine’s“Most Influential Person In Running.”What becomes apparent in this conversation is how clear Meb is – both the way he organizes his thoughts and his framework for living.We touch on the importance of gratitude, hard work, clear goals, embracing challenges, and his spiritual framework. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Oh, great to see you here. It's awesome that you ran and you inspired us. You know, sometimes it's about pitfalls. You know, when you have a pitfall, you encourage others without knowing you. They read about you and they hear about you and says, hey, I was having a tough day. And you encouraged me to get out of the door.

You inspired me to do a marathon. I know I didn't have to win, but I can finish a marathon. So being a runner is pretty evident for me that, you know, you run to people who you have touched, even though you didn't realize you were doing it. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and I trade in training. I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who've committed their life efforts towards mastery. Now, what does that mean? It means that we want

to understand the framework that they've built upon, their psychological framework, how they organize their inner world to be able to flourish and express their craft at the highest level. We also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine that craft. And then the subtext of these conversations is really about mastery of craft and or mastery of self. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive

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and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Okay, this week's conversation is with Meb Kaflezi, the only runner in history to win the Boston Marathon, the New York City Marathon, and an Olympic medal. Known all over the world by his first name, Meb is a four-time Olympian and history's oldest marathoner to qualify for the U.S. Olympic team. Meb was born in the East African nation of Eritrea,

a land torn by war at the time that he was born. So he arrived in Southern California at age 12 without knowing a word of English. And then through running, he attracted national attention and eventually earned a scholarship to UCLA, where he won four NCAA titles. Meb understands winning. He understands the process of becoming. The crowning moment of Meb's career came on April 21st, 2014 at the Boston Marathon. And this was right after the year where there was terrorist attacks. And this patriotic victory that he had, I mean, it was the first for an

American man to win since 1983. And it sparked just an avalanche of media and celebration about who he was and what he's done. Even President Barack Obama placed a phone call into Meb just hours after the race. It was this beautiful thing. I remember it exactly where I was when it happened. Today, Meb is Runners World Magazine's most influential person in running. What becomes apparent in this conversation is how clear Meb is, both the way that he organizes his thoughts and his framework for living. We touch on the importance of gratitude and hard work and clear goals, embracing challenges and all the stuff, including his spiritual framework, that you would just assume people would have.

But not only does he understand it, but he lives it. And that's a really important thought, that there's a difference between people who are clear about their core principles and who back into living in alignment with those. Meb has that. And this is a call out to as many of you that might be listening, like, am I doing that myself? If you're not sure, you're not doing it because it's really hard first to know your core principles and then the back end, day in and day out commitment to those principles. And sometimes that comes at great cost. And we touch on all of this. And with that,

let's just jump right into this conversation with Meb. Meb, how are you? I'm good, Michael. Thanks for having me. So right out of the gates, you're really intense, aren't you? I am, actually. It has a good quality and a bad quality. It depends on where you are. Okay.

So what are the – and most – like for most of us, our great strengths become double edged swords. And so for you, what is the good part? What's the hard part about being intense? The good part of intense is when you are, have a call, you can pursue it. And you know, you're going to, there's no, I think I can stop you. You know, resilience, persistence, dedicated, committed, committed. you you know resilience persistence dedicated committed uh but the bad thing is that sometimes you think everybody functions that way and you know we in the world know that that's not always the case so i definitely have especially when with kids and stuff i have to tone it down you know uh because i have the same desire to do great things not Not that everybody doesn't do, but at the same time, there's time and place for it.

That's really cool. And when you say do great things, how do you differentiate between being great and doing great things? They kind of go parallel to each other. I mean, being great is sometimes, you know, talent can take you to some things, but doing great is overcoming the challenges you face and not give up because talent can take you to a certain level and you can get away, can get away. And sometimes that leads to greatness, but doing something great or greater is being able to keep coming back when setbacks happen because you know even great ones do have setbacks and you've earned resiliency like your history in your life you've definitely earned it now and so when i was doing um some research on your story and what you've been able to do and your autobiography is phenomenal and so some of the things early days is that you

had to escape you know Ethiopian soldiers and massacres at an early age you know it was growing up in Eritrea where I was born and third world country in the horn of Africa day-to-day was unpredictable you don't even know what the next week holds for you apart from survival instincts and soldiers trying to capture the old ones, the Ethiopian soldiers, that is, capture old ones and give you a gun and be ready to be trained. If you look like 12 years or older, you're ready to go. And fortunately for me, I was not that age yet. I was eight and a half, nine years old, but my oldest brothers, they had to escape from that dilemma. So they have to hide in the cactus. They have to hide in the bushes because in the villages you hear noises or you hear people or work say they're

coming, they're coming and, you know, and you got to react. And so from that, soldier and then also famine and drought and hunger was pretty difficult to be. And, you know, it's not like in the United States, I try to describe it the best that I can. But, you know, third world country, you got to harvest, you got to plant the seeds, you got to hope the rains. the weed separate from the good uh seeds and eventually cut them off put them in a circle look like uh cement where you have to run it with oxen and then you separate the seed from the haze and then you have to store it or cook it you know and here the storage grocery store most people we go and grab our bread and bagels and we're ready to go. It's already pre-made. But there, survival really is. And for me, school was not an opportunity for everybody.

So if you're lucky enough, you go to school. If not, you've got to be a shepherd, taking care of cattle, cows, or sheep and goats. So it was a very humble beginning. See you in nature and survival at its best. But my parents understood the value of education, even though my dad only had seventh grade education and my mom never went to a former school. So my dad was wanted by the Ethiopian soldiers, so he had to walk over 225 miles to Sudan

and living behind six kids and a wife. wife so it was literally like i said just survival and do what you can and to try to provide a better life for you and your family and but fortunately he made those journeys and after five years of separation uh we got united in italy i was a 10 year old and ran to him and i said daddy and, Marhowie, which is my youngest brother who was four years younger. And I guess, you know, when you have that difference, you haven't seen a kid for five years. You don't know which one is which. So I said, no, it's Meb. And he kind of just went to tears.

He's like, I was expecting you to be taller, bigger and whatnot. And my mom was just worried. You know, we make the flight, you know, because the first time getting on the flight and says, no, don't worry about their waist and heights. Let's make sure they're all six of them are her because for her was has been a big burden, not having the language and first time flying and a different culture. Oh, my God. Like, this doesn't happen to me, but I'm lost for how to respond to what you just shared. And I know that you've said it almost clinically, you know, hundreds and thousands of times about your childhood. And when I think about my son, who's a similar age that you were, and, you know, the luxury that he has of growing up. And I think about what it was like for you. I don't know, it just changes me just listening to

it. So first out of the gates, I want to say thank you. And, you know, I don't even know, like, I have a hard time trying to imagine what it was like. And, and I bet the same time you're, you would have a hard time trying to imagine what it was like. And I bet at the same time, you would have a hard time trying to imagine what it was like for me, you know? Absolutely. I mean, you know, you have kids, I have kids. And then it's kind of like, okay, this kind of shaped me who I am.

Now, you know, they got computers. They got like, we have multiple TV in the house. I mean, you must be like a crazy man. Like, you know, when your kids are too much on the computer. I say, don't complain, don't complain. You don't got no room to complain. And they say, dad, you know, when your kids are too much on the computer, don't complain. Don't complain. You don't got no room to complain. And they say, dad,

come on. Everyone has one. And you go, son, like I never had anything. What are you talking? I didn't have shoes. What are you talking about?

I thought my kids about, is it one, is it necessary? Or is it a need? You know, is it a, if it's a need, I'm fine.

You need it. I will buy you if you want, then, you know, it's a, if it's a need, I'm fine. You need it, I will buy it. If you want, then, you know, it's a luxury. So you have to distinguish between the two. How do you do it? Like you have completely built a new model of parenting because most people get handed a model, right? Which is why many people don't leave the socioeconomic status that they were born into.

There's a model, it's comfortable and people don't test the socioeconomic status that they were born into. There's a model, it's comfortable, and people don't test it. They think they do, but they play it just the way that they've been taught. And so you've basically been given an instrument at an early age, and you flip it upside down, forward, backwards, restrung it, created something new, added to it, and you've got a completely new instrument that you're playing, as I'm mixing metaphors here. So how have you done this, this new parenting way? How are you doing it? Maybe it's a better way to say it.

Well, a lot happened from my wife here, Donos. But at the same time, humbleness. My parents taught us to be humble. And money comes, money goes. But be there for each other support each other encourage each other so when you don't have uh enough food and you share with your brothers and siblings so when you don't have clothes you share with your brothers and sisters and you know whatever somebody i mean i didn't do it but uh my younger siblings they would sometimes one won't

wear on monday they're gonna wear on wednesday and the other one wear on Friday, you know, the clothes they exchange because they didn't have enough. So but now as a parent, it's different because, you provide for your kids at and at a snap of a finger or at www.com you can order whatever you need or want and whatnot so how do you refrain from that and that's a very difficult challenge to a lot of parents but my parents always say provide for your kids but don't spoil them and sometimes even though it might sound difficult i don't mind saying no to them you know just hoping that it's not like they can't have a phone they don't have a phone yet the oldest one is 13 11 and 9 you know most of the teammates i said well i'm not their parents but i don't want them to have a phone once they have a phone that dialogue goes

away would it be convenient sometimes to text her hey i'm 10 minutes late or i'll meet you on this end and things like that yeah sure but you know i think when you go to high school i think it's important we hopefully will give her one and stuff like that um but other than that it's just you know be a provider be keep them humble as much as they can your dinosaur i took them for two months to eritrea just to show their heritage and their roots but also the people how people are you know they have holes here you know having a hole in your jeans or your sweater and stuff like that is fashion there is desperation they don't have any change of clothes that's what it means it's been used uh so it's kind of humor because sometimes you know fashion come out of

that but at the same time it's I, I was talking to somebody just yesterday. He says, you're paying for those jeans that have less on them and you're paying more for them. But people don't have those luxuries to have a second pair of jeans. They don't have a second pair of sweater and things like that. It's whatever they have, they wear for a week long or until it gets old. Until the parent goes to a city and gets them a new one if they can afford it. Okay. How do you teach humility as one of the core principles that you're working on, you know, passing through your family? How do you teach it? Like what is,

how do you organize your life and your words to be able to teach humility? Well, I think the best way to do it is, you know, show them how fortunate they are. When you see people struggling on the streets, show them, you know what, education is important. You know, you, we want to provide the best thing for you. You might think you know it all, but you don't. Nobody knows it all. And, you know, by showing them respect and adversity is good. Sometimes you don't want to overdo it, but challenges, sometimes you want to learn from other people,

but you also want to learn from your self-experience. And like I said earlier, we'd made a trip to Eritrea, and when I was in Rio Olympics in 2016, I wasn't there. I was busy getting ready. But my wife said she had to come to some really kind of poor area in some areas in Brazil. Show them that, that wherever you go in the world, there's people who are in need. So be grateful for what you have. Be great that the opportunities that are provided for you, don't waste them.

Try to take advantage of them and be a good humanitarian and be a good servant to others and respect your parents, respect your elders. You know, manners are very important in our household, both my wife and I. So we try to teach those thanks to them and hopefully, you know, and obviously introduce them to God and for us to be humble and loving and caring for each other. You know, people ask that question to me a bunch like, okay, well, how do you train something, you know, on the psychological side? And for some skills, they are mechanical, like it is mechanical to train confidence or arousal regulation. There are very clear practices that you can put in place to do that. And then the other stuff, the more esoteric, the principles

and the philosophies that guide thoughts and words and actions, it's not complicated. It's like, know what those principles are and then, you know, like be aware of them. And when you have an opportunity, reinforce it, talk about it shape it and it sounds like you just infuse you're doing what i would imagine is that you infuse it in your daily living i mean you guys have a lot more psychology and terms for them but at the same time action is for me what you know what the sport of running half-time is actually speaks louder than words. You can't be bragging because the marathon always keeps you humble. And at the same time, just understand that without action,

there's no accomplishments. So how big, how small, you have to set goals. When you set those goals, you work toward them. When you work, you are putting your mind and body into action. And if you do that, you might not reach for for the stars but you can definitely go on the cloud so it depends you know and then eventually you will reach for the stars but you have to have the stepping stone and the ladder to get there and a marathon is a great metaphor for life and i think a marathon somebody can't just walk the next day and do it uh it just if you want to achieve it to the best that you can you're going to be sore you're going to be hurting but regiments and

training action day in day out or three times a week or four times a week and manage your your workforce on when you're going to do it have a plan and to achieve those goals you were able to you know have kind of like see the progress also when you have a goal you to achieve those goals, you were able to, you know, have kind of like see the progress. Also, when you have a goal, you're working weekly or monthly toward it. It is pretty evident that the progress will, you will see the progress and it builds self confidence. When you build self confidence, you will achieve those goals.

And sometimes the first time and some other times you may need to get second or third try. And, but eventually you should be able to achieve close to your goals. Maybe not all your goals, but close enough. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell

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for 20% off. When you set goals, like when you get down into the weeds and the art of it, are you setting goals that are more in your control or goals that are more outcome based? Well, a little of both. Sometimes you can control, but at the same time, when you're running, they're more outcome based because you're like, okay, I'm going to have around 10 miles and I want to do it in this. You can control how hilly or where you go and it in this you know you can't control how you can control how hilly or where you go and things like that but you can't control the wind or what kind of cars are in front of you so you have to have the management of both and say hey I want to go to this area and this is my first 10 mile tempo that I'm going to do that means race pace I'm

going to go for it and I might hit 51 minute but eventually you got to work it to 49 minutes so and you can look at when you hit 50 50 57 and you can say you know what I am uh half you know you can look at the glass half full half empty instead of saying oh I did you know I didn't hit my 49 it depends what time in the season you're in and say, hey, I'm at the beginning. This is my first one. And then by the third one, I went ahead in the 49s or 49.30. So you have to be able to make just attainable goals. Yeah. So who taught you this?

Because it seems super natural, like it's an organic language for you about how you organize your thinking. And so did you learn it organically and, or did someone help you, you know, through this? Oh, I think I read a lot about autobiography. So I have parents who kind of preach those things,

but also I had coaches that have seen me over the years. Uh, but then when it comes to academics, you know, the athletic teaches you so many things that, um, you know, you kind of become a second nature to you. But I think coaches and parents and teammates, you know, you get that energy and say, hey, you might not, I might say, maybe at one time I was probably not as confident,

but other people saw what I was able to do. Even in high school, people would say, hey, we'll see you at the Olympics. You're going to make the Olympics. But I'm like, I don't know if I can make it. People say, don't forget the small people. You're going to win the medals. We'll see you on TV. I'm like, no, I just want to get my degree.

So because the priority was in academics. But as you grow as humans and with age and wisdom, things start clicking. And you're like, oh, they were right. But some people couldn't see your vision vision and they're there to nurture you, whether it's coaches or parents or mentors. Okay. So that's interesting because UCLA, one of the great athletic powerhouses as a, um, as an institution, and you were inducted into the athletic hall of fame.

Was that a goal or was that a by-product of you focusing on other goals? Michael, that was a by-product. That's what I figured. Going to UCLA, I was just like, can I get in? You know, you don't think about those things, you know, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to be hall of famer by any means. It's just, can I get UCLA and can I get a scholarship? And when you get a scholarship, you're like, okay, I want to be the top guy on the team.

You're not even thinking about longevity. Okay, well, I'm the top guy on the team. You want to be the top guy at the time was conference Pac-10. You know, I want to win Pac-10. Once you win Pac-10, I want to qualify for NCAAs. When you qualify for NCAAs, you said, okay, I'm a freshman. I just got to finish in the NCAA and get All-American. You're not thinking winning, but eventually when you get All-American,

you think, okay, maybe by junior year or senior year, I will win. And my coach, Bob Larson, he was on board on that. He would say, you're a freshman. You don't need to have the pressure on you now as a freshman or sophomore. By junior and senior year, you chase people now, but by the time you're junior and senior, people will be chasing you. So your priorities are up on the right path. But at the end of the day, I never thought I'd get inducted to the UCLA Hall of Fame.

You know, you have so much, like whether it's John Wooden, Paul Walton, Jackie Robinson, I mean, so many, you know, Troy Aikman, and so many other, you know, Rafer Johnson and other great track athletes, Jackie Joyner-Kersey. You think when I was going there, I just, well, let me just be the best student athlete I can be. And then you see John Gardena or Amy Aikoff who were on the cover of track and field. It's like, well, they got their high jumper and shot putter or auto balled in the 100 meters. I want to be the distance runner for them i want to be a standout so you have those goals but never ever thought i would be inducted the hall of fame those are something that come by pass or down the road

and same thing with the san diego hall of fame i just you know got inducted this year but uh you think okay i just want to make to the luncheon you know i want to be athlete of the month you know you become athlete of the year eventually and you know especially knowing the background where i grew up i didn't see i didn't have tv i didn't see tv and i didn't even know running was a sport but by by accident or by default i end up there and i'm just grateful for all the great accomplishment that have achieved and it was through the mercy of god that allowed me to do that. And also a lot of great people helping you pave the path to be the best that you can be. You know, it is, again, I'm going to say this, like listening to how you organize your thoughts, it's really structured.

And you've got gratitude. You've got a spiritual framework. You've got community. You've got hard work. You've got gratitude. You've got a spiritual framework. You've got community. You've got hard work. You've got clarity of goals. And it sounds like on those goals, the way you organize your inner life is that you're just trying to stretch yourself enough to see maybe I could. And that in and of itself inspires you just to almost climb the next hill, if you will.

And I'm wondering, I bet, when you run and you're at the edge of capacity, you're tired, you're fatigued, you're in that kind of special space where adaptations are taking place. If you set small little targets in your own mind, like, okay, I'm going to keep this pace to the next trash can or the next light or the next whatever. Do you, do you organize your thoughts that way during, you way during actual running? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think I do a lot of visualization and training and then hopefully it becomes a second nature when I'm racing. Tell me about the imagery that you do. So the visualization that I do is, you know, I want to make it to then, you know, if you do an eight mile tempo or 10 mile tempo, you don't take the whole 10. You think, okay, I just want to make

it to three mile and the three miles at this phase and i want to pick it up until mile six once you make it mile six okay i feel good i think i can maintain this space let me get down to mile eight and then oh wow i just got two more miles i'm gonna i'm gonna hammer version i'm gonna hammer the next two miles so you also visualization the race how the race is gonna unfold you know i had a dream that i would win new york city marathon i had a dream that i would win new york city marathon i had a dream that i would win new york uh boston marathon at times or i did not have that dream when i won the silver medal that was early on i didn't i didn't do those things the olympics but you have those increment of goals and then when you it's actually happening like to your credit

you say i just want to hold on with this group as long as I can, or I want to make it the next block. Don't lose confidence in the next block. Just keep charging, keep charging. And then at one point, you know, like the London Olympic Games, I was struggling, and it was my third Olympics. I didn't make it. 2000, 2004, where I won silver. I missed 2008 due to an injury.

In 2012, I already signed up for New York City Marathon. Things were not going well. My goal was to be top three or top 10, but I was 21st place. And I'm like halfway through, I was almost finished. I was not having a great day. And I'm like, you know what? I should just stop and get ready for the New York City Marathon. And I thought, you know, I'm wearing the USA jersey.

I'm at the Olympics. How many people would love to be in my shoes? I have my daughters, my wife, my parents, my sibling at the finish line. And I've got to get a finish line somehow, someway. And, you know, quitting is not my best. I've got to tell that to my daughters. And I better live by it. So you think those things in the race.

And I prayed to get the second group. Once you get the second group, you say, maybe I you say maybe i will be one person maybe i will be two people and then all of a sudden you are 15th place and then you said well maybe i could be the champion of this group you know you have those mindset goals and then eventually you're like okay i'm top 10 and before you know it with 5k you are sixth place and the positive thing of the mind is huge because once you decide you're going to go to that finish line you might not you know i wasn't thinking i was going to pass people i thought i was going to finish 50th but before i know it i was in sixth place with 5k left and then i'm like well keep pushing keep pushing and i see a guy that had hit the wall

with two mile left and i said if we catch that know, even, even if some of them get drug tested and one of them get tested positive, you can be with the guy that's getting the bronze. So get to that fourth place. So you keep talking to yourself. And amazingly, I came in fourth place and, uh, what a wonderful attribute that is because being in the moment, overcoming obstacles, overcoming challenges, and that fourth place is yes, I didn't win a medal, but that taught me how to challenge myself, be in the moment, don't give up. And that opened a big door for me to be able to be invited to the Boston Marathon the year after. So that was 2012, right? And so when I hear that, it's like, oh, you went into deep waters and you you bit down you kept fighting for it but

it's really that skill of self-talk which is like it's two skills self-talk with very concrete goals which you practice both of them and so they were available for you when it got hard absolutely yeah you gotta you know have a dialogue within yourself because you know what, you know, you're mile eight or mile 15, you know, you have 11 more miles to go, but you can't sprint it. You got to think, I got 11 miles, so I got to push it hard, but not enough to the wall. Just maintain the pace, maintain the pace. Once you do that, it's like, okay, I guess the next mile you might see your watch and

it's not as bad as I thought it would be. I mean, I'm still within my range. And I still got 10 miles to go. So you kind of measure yourself and have self-dialogue internally and also not exhausting yourself. And then having those goals that, hey, I want to run with this group. I want to catch the next group. Just keep pushing. And that's what I say.

Run to win. It doesn't mean get first place by getting the best out of yourself with the situation you had dealt with I love it and what what are you driven by what is it is it to be your best is it that simple is that what you're driven by or is it something oh yeah I mean artistic yeah it's different to be the best that you can be but also driven not to fail i mean failure is uh the last resort of option you know but i uh when i was running in high school i don't wanna i want to make sure i get my degrees because i see a lot of people who who are homeless or i don't want to be

end up there or having mistakes in my life i want to take my seriousness to education and you know and then eventually as a runner it's like okay push yourself to the best that you can with the situation you have sometimes you win sometimes you lose but they each teach you lessons and you write down the lessons of how to improve the next time whether you if you win obviously it's always simple you are you're on cloud nine but if you don't then he said you get third place or fourth place but you didn't have the ideal training and. And he said, you know what, if I could change this, this, and that, I could come back and be a stronger person. And then I could finish in the podium or win it. And like I talk about in my book, 26 Marathons, what I have learned through faith, identity, and running and life.

The 2005 New York City Marathon, I ended up getting, I had a ruptured quad in August. I had to walk first before I could jog. Before I could jog, after jogging, I had to run. And then I had to measure just right in training, make sure I get the sideline healthy, even though I was not prepared the best that I can. But I ended up getting third place to the defending champion and the world record holder. And I said, you know what, if I can stay healthy, and my coach agreed with that, if you can stay healthy,

imagine what you could do. And that third place kind of gave me hope that I am capable of winning the New York City Marathon. And obviously it happened four years later. But, you know, sometimes when you don't win, you learn a lot as well. Do you actually keep a journal? I do keep a journal i do i do keep churning log i have my all my train log from 2000 1993 all the way to 2010 or 11 probably and then i did keep a journal in the past when i was in

college and but not as much once once computer got invented i didn't do them but when i used to travel for cross-country or track meets i used to write down what's going on in my head. So that helped. It was easier to write the books that I wrote, Run to Overcome and Metamortals and the 26th Marathon. So it became in hand. The Van Kamps, who are my mentor that I talk about, Run to Overcome, they kind of introduced me to that.

Okay, so if we were to push all of the words or statements that you wrote down in your journals, either written or via computer, what would be the statements that would come out as the most frequent things that you said? I would say probably challenges, challenging situations, whether it's a relationship, whether it's academic, whether it's just teamwork, you always find challenging situations happen in life and in those situations. So for me, it's overcoming adversity, language barrier, trying to be a proud son, trying to be a proud student, trying to be a proud student trying to be a proud student athlete so all those entails to happy drive you know having a cause or having a cause why you doing your purpose what's your purpose on this earth you know to be a student athlete once that chapter is closed to be the best professional athlete that I can be once that closed try to be a good dad trying to be a good husband but everything had a kind of timeline for me. So your purpose changes over time based on the activities that you're doing?

Absolutely. Okay. And then underneath the activities, what would you imagine your purpose to be? Meaning there's like the mechanical part of like, okay, my purpose is to be the best father. That's super important, obviously. And then underneath of it, what is your life purpose overall? Well, I think that my life purpose overall was a significance of the Boston victory for me. My wife always said this, when we drive from San Diego to Mammoth, you have a dialogue and you have the pedestal for being a runner, but your work to your talent is beyond running, you know. And for me, I think winning the Boston Marathon, it was lucrative. But what was that day, the year after the bombing,

having to carry the victim's name on my bib to draw inspiration and have a purpose when I won that, it was greater than myself. It was great for the community that had just, you know, planned it out for me to be able I want that. It was greater than myself. It was great for the community. God had just planned it out for me to be able to do that. It's not for lack of trying. I tried it multiple times, but that day, it gave me a great gratification that I was on this earth for a purpose of inspiring people and encouraging people and drawing inspiration from them and teach them what to be, to get the best out of themselves. Not just for me me i got the best out of myself in terms of running but there's more work to be done about encouragement and inspiration to others you know when we take a look at the common themes for

people that report having purpose there's three themes that emerge one is that it matters to you so you can't do somebody else's purpose right right? Somebody else can't give you meaning. It's got to matter to you. It's got to be bigger than you. And it's got to have some sort of future orientation, meaning it's down the road a little bit. And it sounds like you have all three of those, right? And so it's not lost on me that it'd be easy to say you live a purpose-driven life, that you've got deep purpose in your life. You know, Michael, I think having a goal is important. Having a purpose-driven life you know that you've got deep purpose in your life you know michael i think having a goal is important having a purpose very important and at the same time bigger than yourself is you know whether i was the first you know college

student uh to go uh with my you know my parents didn't have college degrees so my brother told the brothers were the first ones to get college degrees, so it was a bigger purpose. They didn't have this opportunity, not that I was living for them, but I knew it was going to provide a better opportunity for me and my family. And also just running. I mean, running, you help inspire others. You just have this idea that when I go run,

sometimes I don't feel like going running, and people see you, oh, great to see you here, it's awesome that you ran, and you inspired us. Sometimes it's about pitfalls. When you have a pitfall, you encourage others. Without knowing you, they read about you, and they hear about you, and says, hey, I was having a tough day, and you encouraged me to get out of the door. You inspired me to do a marathon. I know if I don't have to win, but I can finish a marathon. So being a runner is pretty evident for me that, you know, you run to people who you

have touched, even though you didn't realize you were doing it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently,

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If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. When I think about how you've helped so many people, you've orientated your life for purpose and meaning and trying to find your very best on a regular basis, even when it's hard, you know, like that's a really important part of it. I want to hit the faith thing here in a minute because you've mentioned it four times, so I know it's a significant part of your framework. However, before we get there, with your intensity, with your relentless commitment to finding your best,

what has been the hardest part or the dark side of being an elite athlete or somebody who is relentless? So go back to the word, relentlessly dedicated to improvement. What has been the hardest part of that for you? Two things come to mind. 2008 Olympic trials, which was held in November of 2007 for the 2008 Olympics. That was devastating mentally, physically, emotionally, because I didn't make the Olympic team. I was a favorite to win the Olympic trials, but yet I finished eighth place

and top three. You go to the Olympics anything below that you don't and mentally and emotionally I was devastated and then to have a friend of mine my uh Ryan Shea who passed away that even put a more perspective devastation uh at a new level but uh other time that have happened is probably uh 2011 when I didn't have a shoe contract. You think after winning a silver medal and winning New York and you're going to be. But Nike decided that they don't want to be part of my journey at that point. And I was devastated.

I was, I mean, you can't get lower than that, you know, in terms of running. But you think the purpose, what we talked about, what's your sense of purpose? You know, God created me on this earth to be a part of running. They gave me the gift of running but you think the purpose while we talked about what's your sense of purpose you know God created me on this earth to be a part of running they gave me the gift of running is that maxed out for me that was the purpose did it did I tap out my maximum talent and I know I didn't there was more than the tank that I can prove to myself and others and I overcame those challenges thank you to the sketchers for allowing me to be able to give me a second life and then to be able to move come over that and you know make two olympic team and then win win the boston and all those things so never give up hope you know hope is everything and if you have hope and goal futures you will achieve those things but you know you need to surround

yourself with good people and knowledgeable people and and life is a journey and you know i'm learning that now in the real life how challenging life can be and curveballs but you know when you're doing a sport now you can't solve everything but you can have understanding that you gotta be patient you gotta work hard you gotta be resilient not give up and when you think about your religion or your faith or your spiritual life, I think you said God. So you are deity-based in your framework? Yeah, I'm God-based, faithful God-based. God-based. And is your God, your relationship with God, is it an active God or a passive God?

And an active God is like God puts you in particular places or experiences or gives you particular gifts for certain aims. And then it's up to you to maximize them, those opportunities. Or a passive God is like, hey, listen, you got your genetic coding. I put this whole thing in place. And, you know, I hope you figure it out. I think I have to say active God because like a visualization, you have a visualization for races and you have a relationship or dialogue with God. I mean, every morning you wake up, you are thankful for being able to just wake up when you did wake up without alarm. And when I'm training, I have dialogue.

When I was training for the Boston Marathon and many other races, it's like it helped me to make this dream come true. And yeah, yeah i do the cross when i finish the race absolutely but i've been doing that like probably seven or eight or more times when i'm training you know because uh you know what you know when you you're having a dialogue and it says you know you put me on this earth for a purpose you know i want to be able to you know when i was nobody watching there's only deers or you see one human being in the 20 mile run you do but you know you're thankful for the opportunities and for the nature that god has created and he said you know what what a blessing i'm in mammoth lakes what a

blessing i'm in san diego what a blessing that i'm able to do the things not just for myself but for others because you know you have relative friends or acquaintances who can do the things you are doing. So you have a purpose to do that. And you're like, you know what? Help me achieve those goals, not only for myself, but for others. So, you know, you have constant dialogue. And I would like to say I have a good relationship with God and an active one at that. There you go.

Okay. And then in that vein, like how do you get in your own way? What is it that you do when, for whatever reasons that things are in your life, how do you amplify that or make it worse? How do you get in your own way is the simple way to ask that. Oh, I mean, I think when you are, you think you can control it. Sometimes a bit running is like, okay, I can go for a five-minute pace for this. And, you know, you have to be – sometimes it comes easy and other times it doesn't. And, you know, you think you control it and you dedicate it and you persevere.

But at the same time, you know, if you are not humble, some things – if you think things for granted, some things can be taken away from you. And it's going to happen in a snap of a finger, whether it's our health, whether it is the injury that I have encountered. And you know what? When that happens, like the 2008 Olympic trials, you know, every time you get a chance to run again, you have an appreciation for God's grace. And you have an appreciation for the people that help you get to the starting line healthy. So, you know, when you are, you know know sometimes you can be a little bit too confident you know i think i could do i think i can do it that's probably part of it not that i didn't think i was that confident but i mean some things oh i'm having the best summer of my career i think i can make the team i think i want

to want to win a gold well first you got to make the olympic team you know and how to get there it's not like by working too hard you got to trust in the system that you have got you to the finish line before that and do well instead of just work work work and then you burn yourself out is there a word that cuts to right to the center of what you understand most in life what i understand most in life? Yeah. Well, I think I would say patience. I think patience, understanding others. I have to try to be, you know, faith. I'm a faith-based person. You know, it doesn't happen overnight.

But if you have faith and you have hope, those things can overcome joy. And you can, you know can love what you do. I mean, if you love what you do, it's a lot more easier versus, you know, got to do this, got to do this. I don't like to be a got to do this kind of situation. It sounds like you're so intense. I would have actually imagined that that would come up. But, you know, hearing you say that is refreshing.

It feels like there's more space inside of your psychology, if you know i hearing you say that is is refreshing it feels like there's more space inside of your psychology if you will that um you're an agent in your own life like you're you know right because i could create a narrative where you're really intense and driven and you know you just grind and put in the work and but there's there's more space inside of you but then but then you know that i think that's you know, I believe in preparation is the key to success. You can't say, oh, I'm going to run a marathon. I'm going to win and sit it down. But you put it where your mouth is.

You know, you do the drills. You do the action. And then come race day, it's like, hey, may the best man, may the best woman, if they beat me, they beat me. I have no problem with that. But I'm willing to work hard in preparation. And then once you do that, especially on a 26.2 mile journey, you know, there's a lot of things that couldn't go wrong. And it's gratifying when you hit it out of the ballpark, but at the same time, there's more losses than wins. So, and others are trying to do the same thing. So you have to

respect the distance, you have to respect your competitors and have an appreciation for it. And how bad is drugs right now in track and field you know is it in a in a good place is it at an all-time low like where where drugs in track and field right now fortunately they're not all-time low there's people getting i thought you know in the past that were i mean maybe i was naive but everybody did it clean. But unfortunately, that's not the case. So there's a lot of people who are cheating. And it's really unfortunate because, like I said earlier, if you work hard, you deserve to win.

Or if I was smarter than you, I deserve to win. But unfortunately, or the Olympic Games or others. And I myself have gotten the short end of the stick. I think it was 2013, a half marathon US championship. There's a guy named Mo Trofe who beat me and I was runner up. I didn't have that title, you know, and could be invited back to those races

and things like that. But cheaters will, it will get caught just a matter of when. And did you ever, like, how does it work? Did somebody ever in your life say to you, hey, if you really want to crack that time, I've got something that will help? I don't know.

All I know is I'm clean and I've done it clean. But, yeah, I mean I don't know how that works. I mean like I said, I'm very naive into that area because that's why I went to Mammoth Lakes where you have to be at altitude uh to uh train your body and you can't leave you can't see your family for three weeks four weeks maybe five weeks because the the red acid that you build but i'm but and then there's obviously i learned that there's a shorter way but um you know i never really been approached and there was one person that says hey what's your blood profile like and whatnot but that's the extent of it and i said you know i'll go check up a doctor every every six months or once a year i do my physical checkup

that's all i knew i'm okay with that and but if if he or she he was hinting something else i didn't get it right away to be honest uh because for me is do it naturally do the best you can and the rest will take care of stuff and and i got lapped you know i have gotten lapped at the world championships and the 10k and things like that i only have three big wins uh and a silver medal and second places but i've got 26 marathons only four or five stand out but you know i got i got my shared defeats but i'm okay with that because it makes you stronger

the next time. Can you walk through or remember a particular point in time or an experience that you had where you didn't know if you had what it took? Oh, absolutely. I think it was 2000 Olympics. I'm just first person, first time qualified for my Olympics. My dad think you're going to win tonight. I had to, it was Sydney, Australia. I had this, it was a lot of flu that was going around.

I had the flu. I qualified. And my dad said, you're going to win tonight. I said, dad, I can't win tonight. He's like, what do you mean? You got to think positive, dad. I'm like, can't win tonight. I have not broken 28 minutes.

And the guys that I'm competing, they have run 26.30. I just hope I don't get lapped. And I don't know if I had that, but I knew I told them the same conversation, that maybe down the road I would win, but tonight is not possible. But you have to be realistic. But I hope to train. And a year later, the first time I did altitude training, I shaved off 40 seconds of my PR.

Altitude training, not having a prelim, ideal weather, ideal pacing. It can happen. It can improve in the 10K, and that's still my personal best ever. It's not like I got better than the following I tried, but I got within seven seconds. Consistency is important because we are the same people. But if you see people up and down, left and right, and different kind of results, then you have to be skeptical. Okay. Brilliant.

I mean, it is so clear to me why you're successful. I mean, you're really concrete in the way that you approach successful. I mean, it's, you know, you're really concrete in the way that you approach growth. And what are your relationships like with your family members? Oh, I mean, I think my relationship is good, I would like to think but at the same time, I've been so dedicated to my sport, I missed out a lot on birthdays, or ceremonies or graduations and things like that. And I even missed the White House visit because I was getting ready for New York 2004. So there's opportunities that come. But at the same time, there have been priorities.

My writing took a lot of priority, and I'm grateful for my wife allowing me to do that. And, you know, being an athlete, it's not like you can come back 10 years later and say, let me try it again. You there's ample opportunities and i think i feel like i have capitalized on that but uh also you know i have i'm a father now i'm a husband and i have siblings that i wish i could do more time sometimes i can't get the time back but i try to enjoy it in the process now and as much as i can okay how about thisure comes from just kind of quick hits. Where's pressure come from? Pressure comes from yourself, you know,

because for me, fear of failure can help you put more pressure on yourself. And failure is defined by? Try and error. Okay, so what is failure? Failure is not achieving the goals that you set to get. And that doesn't mean you can never retain them again. It's just like it's an error.

Okay. How about this? It all comes down to? All comes down to be the best he can as an individual. And if you are individually working for the better of the family or for the better of the team, everybody wins. Success is? I like to talk about from John Wooden,

a peace of mind known as the best he can be. You are a UCLA graduate. Okay, love. That's a UCLA graduate. Okay. Love. That's a tough one. We're going through that, my wife and I, right now. Love is, you know, I'm learning that putting others before yourself. Love is pursuing your passion and, you know, be kind to each other and be supportive of each other. How about this? My vision.

My vision, uh, is be realistic. You know, there's imaginary stuff, uh, that's not it, but be realistic, you know, and that's what I think Marathon had taught me. You can't go to mile 17 before you say 14, 15, and 16. So you have a vision of what it's going to look like, but vision is also come to reality. Okay, how about this last little one here? I am? I am a champion. I am a father. I am a husband. I am a father.

I'm a husband. I am grateful for the life that I have. All makes sense. There's nothing out of place for you. It's great. Okay. Like if, if, what do you hope the next generation gets right? Well, the next generation, I hope they are away from their iPads and computers and all that.

I think, you know, I grew they are away from their iPads and computers and all that. I think I grew up with interacting with people. The best about humanity is touching and feeling and communicating, having a dialogue, but more and more, we're getting away from

that through email, text, and not making phone calls or not being in presence of people. With automated grocery stores, self-checkout, I'd rather say to somebody, as much as I can, maybe once or twice I've done the auto-checkout, self-checkout, but I always go to the people and say, hey, how are you doing? How was your day? Or thank you at the end of the checkout and stuff. So be human, be in touch with nature and with humans. Right, brilliant.

Last question is, how do you think about, define, or articulate the concept of mastery? The mastery is to be able to have a path of, we're going to interact with others. And I think if I'm not sure if I'm defining it right, but to be in place and time when there's others who are in need in you. You're a special human, aren't you? That's very kind of you to say,

but no, I I mean we are humans we make mistakes but you know we try to learn and be so part of each other That's awesome. It's refreshing to hear you speak about how you've become and the mission that you're on and just a final parting question is

actually two if you don't mind. One is have you found what you're searching for? What you're searching for, I'm a cool person. I like to write things down or have a dialogue. I mean, right now, for my purpose of searching out, it has been my career to pursue the best that I can be and with the support of my coach, my agent brother, Howie, and Coach Larson, and my wife, Yordanos. And there have been many other people who helped me in the stepping stone to get there. There's a team behind a team, but right now in the middle of transition of what's the next

big purpose, I have a foundation, the Met Foundation, main text on balance for health, education, fitness. I'm trying to do that, but I want to be the best dad that I can. I'm not the greatest dad, but I try to be a good dad that i can i'm not the greatest dad but i try to be a good dad that's good enough for me but i ask the girls what they want me to do what is their you know what what do you expect of me you know because some of them by simple i was watching a movie or some might be biking a ride or some going for a run and so i'm trying to get to know them and try to have a relationship with them but purpose is just to to write it down and and see if you can make improvement as a humans we have pride in

making the learning every day a progress to something good awesome okay last one before I ask where people can find you and get into it is if you were to sit down with somebody who is flat out world-class, you know, world leading in what they do, who would that person be? And then what would you want to ask them if you only had one question? Oh, that's a tough question. Dead or alive, it doesn't matter. I would like to say, I mean, I had a great honor to meet an amazing people and I have asked him

quite a bit of question from President Obama to Jimmy President Jimmy Carter and President Bill Clinton and a few others but you know my first athlete that my dad ever told me was Pele I would love to know him and watch his movies seen him what a significance he has done and if he has to do one more thing what would that be if you have to do one thing over what would that be really that's your question that's cool yeah okay and and for you how do you answer that question i mean you can read things people can read out all our accomplishments and whatnot but whether it's athletic family or other things we always you know there might be one thing that is uh whether it's family

that you would do all over again or there is you know a race or depends what and then you will know what their priorities were oh that's really cool is that like you would you're trying to get at to what's haunting them like what's the thing that keeps them up at night or yeah is that what you're trying to get at yeah okay so okay your your turn med what is it what's the thing i know mine i'm happy to share mine but like what is the thing that you would do over again is that how you asked it yeah i mean i think i would spend more i guess probably more time with the family kids and you know you can win races have goals but at the end of the day i think you know you have pushing pushing yourself to the maximum in terms of athletic but you know is that good enough

you always question that that's the thing that haunts me too is this the time commitment to explore the edges of a craft like the sacrifice at home, it is high. And yes, that that is the part that haunts me. And then to answer if I was to, you know, just so we're sharing in that vulnerability is that if I were to answer that it was certainly about the mistakes I made in the selfishness that I had early in my relationships, my relationship with my wife. And like that, that you know as I say that the other the other part of the conversation is you know getting through those times was necessary it was important we figured

out a lot we learned a lot so I don't know if that's rationalization or if it's really is you know a way to figure things out together it's just part of the path but I appreciate your answers and I appreciate you and what you've done and what you stand for. So I just want to say thanks. And where can people find you?

People can find me at Ron Mebb on Twitter or Instagram. And marathonmebb.com is my website. And I encourage people to be the best they can and keep pushing forward. Yeah, it's beautiful. And both books. So your first book, your autobiography. Yeah, but there's Meb for Mortals, Run to Overcome, and 26 Marathons. Those are the training book, autobiography, and more.

There we go. Meb, thank you. What a legend. All right. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate it. Okay, all the best. Take care.

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