Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Meditation Expert Sharon Salzberg on Being Present, Letting Go, and Having Faith

Episode Date: December 13, 2017

This conversation is with Sharon Salzberg on Being Present, Letting Go, and Having FaithIf you know her name, you know where this conversation will go: Mindfulness.Sharon has played a crucial role in bringing mindfulness practices to the West and into mainstream culture. She first began teaching mindfulness in 1974.(Note: be careful who teaches you about mindfulness — it’s a very, very “in” thing to talk about, and just like most skills in any field, the nuances that come with a deep commitment to understanding and living in alignment are imperative for anyone you’re going to trust in the process of progression.)In 1971, in Bodh Gaya, India, Sharon attended her first meditation course. She spent the next three-and-a-half years engaged in intensive practice and study with highly respected teachers from India, Burma and Tibet.In 1976, she established, together with Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield, the Insight Meditation Society (IMS) in Massachusetts.In this conversation you’ll hear depth. You’ll hear the sensitivities that come with a life commitment to the nuances.We explore how Sharon discovered mindfulness and how it can serve as a toolbox for managing suffering.When Sharon first encountered mindfulness, she was fascinated that there were actual mental tools available to anyone who wants to practice them.Sharon’s definition of faith is not about dogma or adherence to dogma, but getting off the sidelines and moving right to the center of possibility, offering your heart to something even though you don’t know how it’s going to work out.And that’s precisely what she did once she had her first taste of meditation.For Sharon one of the most important things she learned is the ability to “let go.”To come back to your intention, to come back to the now, without being disheartened, without blaming or hating yourself, for what occurred in the past.It’s the eloquent returning to now that is the hallmark of world-class doers and thinkers. This is a skill. And mindfulness is one of the many skills that can accelerate the ability to stitch together moments of full engagement.We also explore how practicing compassion doesn’t mean you can’t still compete and can still have a mindset that allows you to progress and achieve.Sharon has great insight – for both the seasoned and those just getting into mindfulness/meditation world.We are living in a highly digital world that is challenging our ancient brain in ways that we are not fully prepared. I hope this conversation stimulates you to step back and remember what matters most: time — and how we live “on-time” with our self, with others, with nature.It’s through relationships that we become — and that depth only happens in the present moment._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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You know, like the fact that if you were suffering, if you were frightened, if you were, you know, going through a lot, you actually weren't that different because life holds that potential for everybody. There's suffering in life.

This is a part of things. And then I heard in that class that there were things you could actually do. There were tools. There were practical means to change your mind and be happier and feel more whole. And these were called meditation. I thought, ah, wow, I need that. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast.

I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And it's been fun. It's been a blast to be able to do this with folks. And we want to understand their psychological framework, which is a rich understanding of how they make sense of the world. And we also want to understand what it is that they're searching for in their life.

What are they driven from? What are they driven from? What are they driven towards? And how they organize their life efforts to grow, to get better, to better understand the nuances of their craft, whatever that might be. Then we also want to better understand the mental skills they've used to build and refine their craft under varied conditions. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds

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linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening.

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I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this conversation is with Sharon Salzberg. If you know her name, you know exactly where this conversation is going to go. It's going to go to mindfulness. And Sharon has played a crucial role in bringing mindfulness practices to the West and into mainstream culture and conversations right now. She first began teaching mindfulness in 1974. She's been at this for a long time.

And just as a note, I think it's really important to be careful with who you learn mindfulness from. It's a very, very, very in thing right now to talk about. And if you want to go into that process of learning deeper, it's really important that somebody that you're learning from can walk about it and talk about it. And just like most skills in any field, the nuances that come with a deep commitment to understanding and living in alignment are essentially imperative here for anyone that you're going to trust in the process of your growth and progression. So just an important note to pay attention to.

Okay. So back to Sharon here. In 71, in India, Sharon attended her first meditation course, and then she spent the next three and a half years engaged in intensive practice with the study of highly respected folks in India, Burma, and Tibet. Then in 76, she established together with Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield, two legends in the field, the Insight Meditation Society, IMS, and that's in Massachusetts. In this conversation, you'll hear depth. You'll hear sensitivities that come with a real commitment to the nuances. We explore how Sharon discovered mindfulness and how it became part of her toolbox for managing suffering for herself. And then she realized like, okay, this is something that all of us can do.

And for Sharon, one of the most important things she learned was the ability to let go. So we're going to get into the mechanics of letting go. And it's an easy thing to think about. Oh, just let go. But when the stakes are high or pressure is on or whatever that framework or frame of mind that somebody's in, it is hard to let go. And it's that space in between trusting oneself and letting go and embracing the unfolding unknown that is just a wonderfully rare space to execute at a high level. So we get into the weeds a little bit there, which is fun. And it really is about coming back to the present moment. And I know that that's overused right now and you're sick of hearing that, but it really does at a very rich level, come back to living in the present moment more often. And it's,

but letting go about the past and letting go of what the future could be without being disheartened, without being anxious, without blaming or being hard on yourself. And, you know, here's my two cents here is that it's the eloquent returning to now that is the hallmark of world class doers and thinkers. And it is a skill. It can be practiced. And mindfulness is one of the many mental skills that can accelerate the ability to stitch together moments of full engagement. And some people are not going to like to hear this. It's not the end-all be-all. Mindfulness is not the end-all be-all. It is rich. It is wonderful. I'm deeply invested in my own life. It's a center thread that runs through everything that I do. And Sharon is one of

the folks that really has her finger on the pulse of what mindfulness is and how to practice it in a very rich way. And in our modern times, her insight is really valuable. And we're living in a highly digital world that's challenging our ancient brains in ways that we're not fully prepared. That's what it feels like to me. That's what the comp, many of the conversations that I have with folks is like, as fast as we're transforming and performing at the same time, mindfulness is just a fantastic investment in oneself, one's performance and relationships with others for sure. And it is our ability to live on time with ourself, with others, with nature. And it's through those relationships where we become. And that textured depth, it only happens through

the present moment experiences. So enough of that, which is all really cool stuff. Don't get me wrong, but I know we want to jump into this conversation with Sharon. So let's get right into it with Sharon Salzberg. Sharon, how are you? I'm well. How are you? Yeah, I'm doing great. Thank you so much in advance for the time that we're going to spend together on exploring your life work, exploring the insights that you've come to spend together on exploring your life work, exploring the insights that you've come to understand and how you've helped others develop insight as well. So first of all, like seriously, congratulations on your, I don't know if you would consider it body of work, but the influence that you've had on mindfulness in the Western hemisphere, as well as, you know,

how you've contributed in so many other ways. you know congratulations and thank you for this time well thank you yeah so we've passed each other a lot in hallways at conferences and you know in the community and we've never had the chance to sit down and do this and so you know i'd like to start with where you started and maybe one thing that we could do that i think is fun and helpful is if you were to break up your life efforts into chapters and like, like little tiny little sentences or word chapter headings, it's a little bit of a challenge to do, but it helps to give me like a swath of what early, middle and later years have been for you. And so, you know, could you, could you try that? I can try.

I'm not that young, really. So it's like A1, A2. I'll do my best. So my early, earliest years, my childhood was extremely painful and traumatic and very fragmented. I went to college when I was 16. And so I guess the one word would be fragmented. I went to college when I was 16. And so I guess the one word would be fragmented. I went to college when I was 16. And I realized that by then I had lived in five different family configurations, each one of which was changed because of a death or trauma or something.

And so can you walk me through those five transfigurations? Sure. Well, I lived with my parents until they split up when I was four. And then I lived with my mother and her siblings until I was nine. My mother died when I was nine. And I went to live with my father's parents, whom I hardly knew. And then when I was 11, my grandfather died and my father came back. I hadn't seen him since I was four. And by that time he, you know, he'd suffered severe mental illness and alcoholism and, uh, he was really not in a good way. And he was home for, he was home for about

six weeks when he took an overdose of sleeping pills and survived. But he went off to a psychiatric hospital, and he was in some kind of institution for the rest of his life, which was quite considerable. How did your mom die? She had a hemorrhage. Hemorrhage. Does that mean a brain hemorrhage? It was more like a bleeding ulcer that she just hemorrhaged.

Oh, she just hemorrhaged. Okay, goodness. All right. And so, okay, so that I understand, I get a swath, you know, a deeper dive into that swath is that those early years, those formative years were, I think you said there was lots of pain. What was, what was that pain looking back now? Uh, it was, I mean, there was a sense of fragmentation. I had, I had, it was i mean there was a sense of fragmentation i had had it was just chaos within i think and those things are being torn apart but the other layer which came uh pretty quickly

was that i felt i felt both excluded from life because i was so different say at school you know and uh and because i was basically raised by my grandparents uh you know for eastern european immigrants and there were certain cultural overlays you know these things were never talked about like my mother was never discussed after she died or you know the fact that my father uh i mean i was told basically he you know he took that sleeping pill accidentally he'd forgotten he'd taken one so he took another told basically he you know he took that sleeping pill accidentally he'd forgotten he'd taken one so he took another one and then you know it was years later i thought wait a minute you don't end up in a hospital you know forever because of that you know so uh there

was the incredible gap between my internal reality and what i felt to be true what i knew to be true and everything i was being told. And so that gap was probably more painful than anything. When did you realize there was a gap? I think it was when I was first in college, I was kind of waking up and thinking about things. And that's when I, for example, look back on that specific incident. I said, wait a minute, you know, like if it had been an accidental taking, you know, an

extra sleeping pill, you don't really end up in like that kind of facility. And wait a minute, you know, you know, and it was at the same time, through whatever coincidence, that I was first hearing about meditation and Buddhism and really in an academic setting because I was in college and there was a philosophy requirement. And I just chose an Asian philosophy course because it suited my schedule. And lo and behold, it was all there. You know, like the fact that if you were suffering, if you were frightened, if you were, you know, going through a lot, you actually weren't that different. Because life holds that potential for everybody. And there's suffering in life. This is a part of things. And it was like the first time I felt, oh, you know, I do belong.

There is a kind of naturalness to it. It's terrible. It's painful, but it's not so apparent when you're going through a lot. And then I heard in that class that there were things you could actually do. There were tools. There were practical means to change your mind and be happier and feel more whole. And these were called meditation. I thought ah Wow, I need that and God knows where that instinct came from, you know, it wasn't like a an

Abstract interest like oh, that's that's good, you know someone else should do it But it was really like I have to learn how to do that. What you just said was like I think it might be the crux of, or right at the nexus of the difference between people that are in an academic pursuit to get better and then people that are on like a true path to organize their life to get better. So can we pause for a minute there with all the sensitivity to your early years? That thought that I don't know where that came from, but I know that if I did that, there could be something on the other side of it. Okay. So that, because most people

in this world that we want to be better, you know, like the communities that we're in, people want to be better. Right. And some organize their life, fundamentally organize their life to get better. Some just think about getting better. And those that fundamentally organize their life and do the work, okay, well, things begin to shift and change. Can you go back to that thing when you said, God, I want that, I need that, or whatever the phrase is that you had that you just shared? And then how you carried forward in the actual training? And to me, it doesn't matter if it's meditation, it's diet, it's whatever. It's like that commitment and interest that preceded it. It's the most amazing moment.

I wish I could bottle it because I completely agree. I wrote a book called Faith, and that's actually how I define faith. It's not as belief or dogma or adherence to dogma but as getting off the sidelines and moving right to the center of possibility you know and offering your heart to something even though you don't know how it's going to work out you know you have uh some belief it might but you know it's like uh it's that movement you, and it's no longer marginalizing yourself and going right to what might be possible. It's how I actually define faith. And a lot of it was my fascination with looking back at that moment, like how I had it in me.

I was 18 years old. I grew up in New York City. I was going to college in Buffalo. I'd never even been to California when I went to India. know okay yeah okay so so you okay so so you did something else instead of I love the getting off the sidelines obviously um and what's nice about like in pro sport you can't make the choice to get off the sidelines like somebody has to invite you off the sideline to get playtime right and in life we we sideline ourselves because we have this inner track and story like you know oh that's for other people and you

mentioned that or i that's not going to really work out for me or oh that's interesting but i'm too busy or you know that's that i'm not sure that that ever really works and so we just do the same things our parents taught us or our young influencers taught us. Yeah, that's totally correct. And we languish, you know, because I think we really do. Each of us have so much possibility. Hey, Sharon, I've got this thought that I'd love for you to say, no, that's stupid. Or, yeah, that makes some kind of sense. Or wherever on the spectrum are you, is that I feel like in my life, I've needed to hear things X, in quotes, number of times.

And I don't know how many times I need to hear something before I feel it. Sometimes it's one. Somebody says something, it's the right time, the right place. I feel it, I think it. And then somehow I'm compelled to do something with it. But sometimes I need to be hit over the head hundreds of times and I still don't get it. So do you, do you have a sense that that was either the right time, the right place, the right way, or you were, or you had already heard something in your earlier 18 years, 15, 20 times. And this was the time that it actually sank in that, okay, I need to do something. And, and I think it was the first time you think it was the first time. So it was like, I'd never been in therapy. I'd never, you know, um, done the more kind of

available conventional means of healing, you know? Um, no, I think it was the first time. I think it was especially potent because it was joined with the first thing I said, with the really open acknowledgments that sometimes things are hard. You know, we hurt. It's not always picture perfect for everybody, you know, despite the presentation of the society. And so, you know, I think that opened the door for me to actually then hear, oh, you know what, there's something you can do. There's something you can actually do with your mind. And it doesn't involve, you know, a belief system or a new identity or, you know, being a special kind of person. It's for everybody. Anybody who wants to try. Okay. And then you said, I'm going to go east. Yeah. And you said, yeah, let's go to India. And before you go there, how did you get into college at 16? Because I went to New York City public schools and they were, they may still be, I'm not sure,

very fond of having people skip grades. So I skipped third grade and eighth grade is that because you're a good student or because you're naturally have been gifted some intelligence and you applied it or like what was the what was that um that thread i think it was both you know i uh i was capable of doing it and and you know i was I was also in the same lines of, you know, these mysterious inner forces. I just, I wanted to get out. I wanted to get out of New York City. I wanted to get out of my home situation. And the way to do that, you know, my mind

was being a good student and really working. And so I'm listening to the background. You're still in New York City. I am back in New York City. Yeah, those are my sirens. That's my traffic. What side of the city or what part of the city are you living in? I'm basically in Greenwich Village.

I live in Massachusetts, but I have a suburb apartment in New York, which is where I am now. Oh, too fun. Okay. All right. So we've got a couple people and experiences that influence your path. And is there one person over all of your, I know we haven't done the rest of the chapters of your life, but is there one person that has influenced you most?

Not yet, I think, because there was just, I mean, there's too much internal chaos. I mean, obviously there was, there were people, there were people who cared for me, my grandparents, for example. That gave me a kind of integrity to my being or a coreness to my being so I could survive. And then you didn't turn to drugs or some sort of other means to release the pain? No, definitely not that. I mean, I had a child at the 60s you know went to college in 1968 but it was never a really big deal okay perfect all right so then all right so then you get exposed to it and then what's the next chapter so it's

fragmentation and then there's some sort of aha chapter like well then there's the journey you know i went to india with some couple of friends and uh traveled around some because what i was looking for was something really practical you know um and not like woo even then and and it took a while it took about three months and finally i heard about this intensive 10-day meditation retreat led by this teacher SN going, um, in Bogaia, which is in Northern India.

And, um, it was supposed to be like the straight stuff, you know, like you really learned the how to, and, uh, I went and that was actually it.

That was the beginning for me. So it was January of 1971. Hmm. Okay. And then that formation of that trip, think this tells a lot like how did it happen did you get together a couple people and say hey do you want to go with me or were you part of a couple people saying man let's just go travel and was it more casual because i'm trying to sort out like are you mission-minded and then backfill or are you more go with the flow and then organic mission-minded

actually is it's somewhere in between you know it's not quite like you know it wasn't too early there or anything but yeah i mean i i heard about this possibility there's an independent study program at school i created a project i asked some people i told some people I'm going and, um, it was also the time sort of, you know, like it was 1970. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it wasn't, I was far from the only person going, uh, even from that school and, you know, people were going for different projects and different things. And there were some friends who came, you know, along with me. So of all the, all the things that you have done in your life, would this be one of your And there were some friends who came along with me. So of all the things that you have done in your life, would this be one of your big adventures?

Or are there far greater adventures that you've had? Well, it is the big adventure. It's the most important one. Yeah, the long, yeah, the big one. Okay, cool. Okay, so then what's next? Like, where do you go from there? You've got these experiences. You've learned some tactics and tools.

You've been exposed. experiences, you've learned some tactics and tools. Um, you've been exposed. Yeah. You're practicing. And you stayed there, I think for like three years. Is that right? Well,

I stayed longer than my allotted year. Cause it was basically my junior year. Uh, I did go back to Buffalo and found out what I needed to do to actually graduate, which is I ended up with two years of independent study credit. Um, and, uh, this is the times and, uh, went back to India. Okay. And so in total, it was like

three and a half years or four years. Looking back, what did you learn from that time in India? I learned everything. I mean, it was like, I learned, gosh, I learned I could be happy. I learned that I learned how to be more present. I learned how to know where I was feeling instead of avoiding it. I learned how to deal with my feelings. I learned, I developed an enormous community of friends that are still some of my closest friends. And I mean, I learned, I developed an enormous community of friends that are still some of my closest friends. And I mean, I learned everything. I learned also I had potential or had a capacity for love, for connection. Everything came through kind of training awareness, you know, and the meditation and the situation, the group of people

that was there. Okay. Can you, can you push back if I, I'm going to, I want to share a couple of thoughts and then push back and say now, cause I'd never, I did not have your experience, right? And I didn't have your, um, uh, immersive training. I was exposed to mindfulness and meditation, almost like, um, that's the right way to say this? It was sneaky. I don't know a better way to say it. It was a beautiful man. He came back from Vietnam. What's up, Walt? And he was Dr. Rutherford. He was in graduate school. And he just led every class that he taught with, I don't know, it was maybe like eight minutes. And we just sat there. And so, and he just would guide us. Okay, come to look back don't know, it was maybe like eight minutes and we just sat there. And so, and he

just would guide us. Okay. Come to look back, you know, after it took me a little bit of time, like what are we doing? And it was just guided meditation. So it was just really sneaky. It was like, God, that is wonderful. That's fantastic. And so I built a long relationship with him. And so the way that I've come to understand mindfulness is that there's two primary types. And you might say, you might stop me there and say, no, no, no, you're wrong. That's not how you say this. But this is how I've been about it for a long time now.

There's two primary types. There's single point and then there's contemplative. And then inside of those, there's all different kind of entry points. You can use it for lots of different ways, but it's really about awareness first. And then when you're aware more, you can be in the present moment, awareness of thoughts, emotions, body sensations, the nature of what's actually happening. And then if you do enough of that, you swing over to actually reveal some insight. And in the sport world, we talk about, and maybe even wisdom, but in the sport world, we talk about stitching together moments to reveal your potential, glimpses of your potential, if you will. And I think in the sport world, we talk about stitching together moments to reveal your potential, glimpses of your potential, if you will.

And I think in the wisdom communities, we might say, yeah, it's glimpses of wisdom, right? It's like glimpses of insight, like truth, like, oh, my gosh. But the only way to get there is, you know, stitching together this moment with this moment and this moment again and this moment again. And it's the same in sport. The aim is just sometimes a bit different. Right. same in sport the the aim is just sometimes a bit different right um and so i i'd love if you just from a big time top 20 000 foot view say no no structure that differently you're missing something um no no you're doing okay i don't think you're necessarily missing something i just think that you know

if one wants you can get specific about the manifestations. What are the insights? Because I think some are very personal. Some are really universal. Let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. I've had very personal insights about fear, for example. So I've seen just sitting with my own fear because that's what you have to do.

You sit with or cultivate a certain kind of awareness of whatever you're feeling once you've stabilized your attention some as you said you know like a more one-pointed practice then you stay with what's predominant so you're not getting lost in it and you're also not pushing it away and that's where the learning comes you know you can really hang out with whatever's coming up so i've noticed for example sitting with my own fear that unlike the kind of world pronouncements that we're afraid of the unknown i mean of course i can be afraid of the unknown but i'm largely afraid when i think i do know and it's the stories i tell myself that really get me going

ah that's so good that's so good even like in the middle of it, as it's building or cascading. If I remind myself, you know what? You don't know that I feel space. Then I feel free. Like, I don't know. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this

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the story, then you notice the body sensation or in reverse order. And then you just simply do what we'd all imagine, which is go, oh, look at that. That's where fear is for me. Oh, look at that. That's the story that led me. And you just observe, right? Yeah. So, you know, um, are you familiar with, um, Dr. Bessel's work on trauma? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, yeah. And so, I mean, he's got this incredible insight about trauma, which is, it's not the story. It's not the thing that happened. It's not the, the witnessing of death or almost dying or the car crash or what it's not, it's not that. That's just in the past. It's happened. It all, you know, you figured it out during that time, but it's the bringing of all that forward into this conversation. And that's where people become

re-traumatized over and over and over and over again. And it's, um, at a lesser degree, I think that's what we, most of us end up doing. Right? Yeah. And then it's so subtle, though, because it's not as dramatic as trauma. So then we have this low-lying hum, this fear and fatigue that just is this wet, heavy blanket that runs over top of us. Okay. So how do you deal with that heavy blanket? What is your, what is your, what is your practical practice, if you will?

Yeah. I mean, it's almost like the things I learned how to do in meditation, formal meditation, if I'm sitting, you know, every day, let's say for 20 minutes or something like that, or the exact, it's like the exact mechanisms, you know, that I use in life. I notice I'm lost in a story and I take a breath, like, just relax. You don't know yet. Right. I learned to feel things in my body so that, uh, much more quickly I could get that information like, Oh, you're starting to, you know, get lost again. You know, I learned how to let go. Like, you know, if you sit down, even in that original kind of meditation, you began to describe where you're sitting and you choose an object of

awareness, say the breath or mantra or something like that. And every time your attention leaves there, you gently let go and bring it back. That's like exercising the letting go muscle, you know, and learning how to come back to your goal or go muscle you know and and learning how to come back to your goal or your you know your your intention which is to be without that original object again and again and again and again without being disheartened without blaming yourself without hating yourself you just do you

do what needs to be done again and again and again and again so then you do that at work you do that when you're commuting, or you do that wherever you are. That's, yeah. Okay. Right on. And then what is it, Sharon, that you are most hungry for, that you are most craving in your life? And I'm trying to pick a word that captures that deep inner drive? Oh, I'd say compassion, but my mind went like to three different places when you said that. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, where did you go?

What I'm immediately craving, which is more like this week. And that was like I won – even just talking to you about my early years of practice. It's like there's something in me that is telling me I need a return to kind of an original innocence with practice. Like I need a retreat. I need a time of just not writing a book. I'm not manifesting in some way and just, okay, I'm going to go back to basics and do that. So that was the first thing.

Right. Or not running a retreat. That's right. Not running a retreat, sitting a retreat. I mean, I just sat a retreat just a few days and it was fabulous. So it's like in this immediate period, if you talk about craving, that's what I actually crave. I love the word you use, the innocence. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, good.

So that's one. And then where else did you go? And then I went to, in terms of manifestation, because I just find this such a hard time for so many people. And so many people are turning to me and asking me for help you know like i just craved a kind of resilience personal resilience and an ability to and one of my big things i think is is actually redeeming words you know it's like a word like faith even my friends were like why are you writing a book on faith because so many for so many people the word had come to mean being silenced or not being able to ask questions and

so much of my work in teaching is about love it's about compassion uh which are also both words that i feel have gotten sort of degraded in our time um you know where we think of them as weak or kind of sentimental or gooey and don't necessarily appreciate them, I don't think, as the kind of force they can be. So in terms of manifestation, that's most of what I do. And at times it's harder to do than others, you know, as people are really needing a sense of strength, you know, and clarity, and not misunderstanding those forces.

Because without some measure of love or loving kindness and compassion in these times, I think we're just going to go down, you know. And then what is your practice to amplify compassion or to get more in touch with that nature? Well, I think it actually happens anyway. You know, as I said, if you're in a meditative process or in an endeavor, you know, I think the ability to let go and start over, I think the sneaky part of that is some amount of compassion for yourself. At least for yourself, you know, because otherwise you're just going around, you know, and you identify yourself as a self-failure

and you can't begin again. And so, but there are also certain meditations which I mostly write about and teach, which are specifically about the deepening of those qualities, like loving kindness meditation okay and then so i mean i think that i would could i insert this for you is that you know kind of some basic um dogmatic thinking is everyone's suffering so let's have compassion and then from that compassion live with love and Like, is that a process that is pretty consistent for you?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then can we put a performance lens on there for just a moment? Yes, please. Yeah. So, all right. If we're not careful, like we end up being like, I got to get mine, right?

Whatever mine is, I got to get my trophies, my money, my fame, my, my, my, my, I got to get mine. And that becomes this really dangerous pursuit for a lot of reasons. Sometimes people get a lot of their thing, but they lose so much along the way. Okay. So, so that I'm not talking about that type of performance aim, but I'm talking about like, I want to become better. I want to be more of myself. You know, we're so busy with, from the industrial revolution and our parents and grandparents said, Hey, you need to do more. There's these machines now you need to do more. And so we built this model. I need to do more to be more. And in that phrase, in that frame,

I think we've lost the being piece. And so time to flip it on its head, right. And be more and let the doing flow from the being. And then, so, so let's go from the do more to be more model. And I know that you're going to say, okay, makes me cringe. But inside of that frame, if somebody said compassion, why? Why would I want compassion for other people? I'm trying to compete with other people. And so I've got a lot of thoughts around that, but I'd love to not taint you in any way

and say, how do you respond to that? In the alpha competitive environment, compassion, loving kindness. Okay, so maybe we'll solve the world, but we're not going to solve my business problems and I need some money. I'm joking, but like that's a real deal. It is a great question and it's a common question and it's a natural kind of question. I think it's great.

I saw a description of one of my own books once where it uh this book will teach you how to be competitive without being cruel and i think that is so good you know yeah um uh because i mean we need i think we need standards of excellence we need just as human beings and and you know doing a craft or in a task or whatever uh we need a sense of excellence we need to strive for it we need i think big aspiration not uh petty or meager aspiration but not specific aspiration either like you know more along the lines of i want to continue to improve and learn rather than i want to be able to do this in six minutes rather than eight, you know, something like that. And I think we need a tremendous, we need energy. We need commitment.

We need discipline. We need all of that. And I don't think compassion takes away from any of that. I think it's something else. First of all, self-compassion, you know, is something I'm really fascinated with because I think of all things, it tends to come off as laziness. You know, people say to me, I don't think so. You know, like that's like saying, ah, I made a mistake.

I'll forgive myself tomorrow. I'll make another one in two seconds. Who cares? I'll just forgive myself again. But I don't think that's really true. I think that if we look at what holds us back and we look at what keeps us from being able to start again, because, in fact, we need to start again over and over again.

It's not, nothing in life seems to be a straight shot, you know. It's like, I had a few problems in the beginning, now they're all smoothed out, you know, never again. We're always kind of altering and moving and, you know, picking ourselves up sometimes from really having fallen down. And how do we do that? You know, we need a measure of compassion for ourselves i think compassion for someone else doesn't mean you don't compete against them anymore but the kind of physical the obsessiveness we get into is crazy and um the idea that we will be finally satisfied with who we are when we have put everyone else down you know uh is also crazy.

They take up a lot of time, too, you know, like, like if you're only obsessing about someone else's faults and how superior you are or whatever, you know, it's like your whole life. The orientation of competition, I think, is really important as well. Competing against versus competing with, right? So you can still have compassion and regard for other people if you're competing with them. If you're competing against them, it has a different tone. And one of the ways I like to think about compassion and competitiveness is that compassion is the grease for the groove. And there's lots of different grease that we need. You know, it's not just one, you know, the groovement of great performance or

great thinking is often greased by self-compassion, meaning like I don't need to be perfect. I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm trying to get better. I'm going to give my best effort and I'm going to come up short to this concept of perfect. So let's throw that thing out the window. But let's make sure that we're as greased as we possibly can, because the self-critic creates lots of kinetic chain problems, right? It just becomes this chink. And I found this though, that people that are really hard on themselves early in life and process, they get better quickly. That's not

good enough. Jeez, what is wrong with me? Okay, do it again. That's not good enough again. And so they keep working at this relentless kind of pace. And so for those folks that say, yeah, yeah, that's me. I'm really hard on myself. I have high standards, but it's gotten me good. And I can't let go of that. Now there's a space between good and great. Okay, so for sure sure how would you help somebody who's brutal to themselves but is a considerable force or talent in their industry well you know i mean i don't know that i would even need to point someone to something specific other than actually feeling what they're feeling you know because there's a cost benefit

analysis we always do but if we're living in in the dream you know and we're not in touch we're disconnected basically from our bodies and the toll and stress and the family and you know whatever else then um we can be oblivious but if we actually pay attention uh we have the ability to to choose because there are tolls and there are costs and there are compromises and there are losses and and we may decide yeah you know what it's worth it or we might say you know if this really hurts it hurts in a way that i couldn't even comprehend when i was just lost in some other place. There's some amazing statistic, which I can't get right now, about how many Americans, only Americans, describe themselves as lonely, whether they're in a relationship or not.

You think about that. The force of social connection and everything it's supposed to do in terms of illness and healing. Interestingly, social connection doesn't mean having more friends rather than less friends it means how connected we feel you know and so it's one of the things i appreciated about meditation practice is that a lot of the lessons they're kind of natural because they're coming from your own observation you go whoa i thought that was really cool you know i thought that was like a great way to live. Look at that.

It actually had certain consequences that I wasn't open to until just now. Do you have a, I don't know, kind of a standard meditation or mindfulness practice? Like the way that I tend to organize mine is that I've got some tranches that I move through. And I don't know, it's not quite the right word, but there's like phases inside of, let's say eight, 20, whatever minutes, you know, an hour, whatever it is, there's some phases that I like to go through. Do you, do you organize yours in a similar way or is it more fluid or is it more structured? Uh, i mean a lot of times these days i you know if i sit when i said i do it every day you know it's more kind of open awareness but i often i like going back to the first instruction i ever got which was sit and feel your breath

and you know in terms of a retreat i would be more. I'd start with something like the breath, move to awareness of the body, you know, and then to emotions and, and so on until it's a more complete expanse. I also do a lot of loving kindness practice, you know, which is a formal practice. It's, it's a supportive practice or it's an alternative to doing mindfulness. And so you know i did actually did only loving kindness practice for about four years starting in 1985 now it's much more irregular for me although i also do it i do loving kindness practice um walking down the street or uh sending out an airplane or something like that and so for you is, is that, I appreciate your kind of grin because I think what you're thinking is like, people don't even know,

but I'm sending them good vibes, right? Yeah. And so is that what the practice is? Do you fill yourself up first in some kind of way or do you feel like you're relatively topped off on a regular basis? I feel like you get topped off in a second, you know, because it's just connecting.

Okay. And so how do you, okay. So that's like a two part question. I love how practical this is actually. It sounds like it might be a little out there, but it, this, this is it, right? Like when you feel full and your bucket is full, then you can, you can extend that. And so the first, tell me if I'm wrong, but the first order of business is my bucket's got to be full. And then the way that I do that is tap into what I would consider now. And some people could call that the connection to Jesus or Buddha or whatever, like tap into now,

and then just hang out there. And all of a sudden, like if you stopped at the end of, I don't know, X number of seconds or minutes or whatever, when you're really tapped in and you opened your eyes and you're like, oh, okay, wow. Like there's an aliveness that just kind of feels that way, right? And I don't, there's probably a very clear neurochemical and neuroelectrical and neural structural activity that's taking place that we're still hunting to better understand that one day we might say it's this structure that is actually or this sequence of structures that's actually responsible for what you just did and that's why you feel more alive but for now there is an aliveness how do you do that for yourself well i i mean i don't tend to use words like jesus or buddha more like you you know and i i just

um i feel like it's a return you know it's been years and years and years of practice and and it's continued i don't think that state is so remote or hard to find i think it's awfully hard to stay with you know which is why i keep coming back to this idea which i i consider the most important idea in all meditation land, which is beginning again. I think actually everybody can access that state of fullness or wholeness or all rightness or intactness or whatever, but our minds just fly off again.

It's learning how to return to that that is the whole process. Then we're there. We may not live there forever, but we can get back pretty quickly if we remember, if we think about it. Yeah, I love that. The esoteric re and member, right? Yeah, that's always fun. That pops up in lots of retreats. Okay, so right now you and I can be in this present moment, but like,

how do you want to be in this moment? I think what you're going to say is I want to be in this moment as many moments as I can with loving kindness. Is, is that fair for me to assume that that's what you're working on? Yeah. Yeah. And then if you're in the present moment in a loving, kind way to yourself first and others and nature, where does that take you? I was thinking as you were formulating the question, I was thinking that really where it takes me is to a place where I'm not missing so much. You know, like if you're talking to somebody or if I'm talking to somebody and I'm really preoccupied, I'm just, let's say I'm first, I'm distracted. I'm thinking about my email. I'm thinking about what I need to do.

I really miss that moment, that being, you know, I'm not connecting to them at all. And if I'm wrapped up in my own situation in some way that um is not letting anyone else in you know i'm really obsessed and i'm fixated and you know lost in one of those spirals then of projection into the future then i'm missing the person also and there's so many reasons why uh there is that strong sense of disconnection and loneliness and and so i realized like even if what's going on is sort of you know ordinary it's not very exciting or illuminating or whatever um there's something so alive about just connecting and being there and and uh that's what i want and that's i think

really available to all of us but we have have to remember, like, you're in that conversation and it's kind of, you know, you're used to thinking about your email. And so you have to say, wait a minute, you know, I'm not even here. Therein lies the potency of practicing refocusing. Which, you know, I'm not sure that I can undo this thought in my head right now. But like so much begins with awareness. Without awareness, it's like we're stuck. So that's the awareness piece there. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. How long does it take to practice, you know, to, to get skilled enough to be in the present in a meaningful enough way? I don't know that there's an answer to that. I mean, neuroscientists, I'm told, would say that if you practice every day for a month, your brain will actually change. So that's not too bad.

Yeah, I've seen that too, yeah. Whether you feel those effects. Our joke is usually, because so many times other people notice the changes in us before we notice them in ourselves that if you really want to know if somebody is making making any improvement from their meditation you have to ask their partner you have to ask their you know colleague you have to um as a kid something like that. And then over time, you do sort of see it in yourself. I think one of the problems is that people also look at that form of period. Let's say you're committed to practicing 20 minutes a day.

That's where people look to see if they've changed or not, and it may not show up there at all. You'll be different with yourself. You'll be different meeting a stranger. You'll be different. Nothing goes so well. That's where you'll really see with yourself. You'll be different meeting a stranger. You'll be different. Nothing goes so well. That's where you'll really see it if you think to look there. Okay.

And then is there a phrase that guides your life? Do you have a philosophy that really is guiding your life? I probably something like let it be or um you know just be here something i hate to say be here now which is a little cliche but you know even if like if someone's talking to me and they're expressing their problem in my mind you know leaps into fix it mode. Like, Oh, maybe if you did that. And I think, well, just listen, you know, just be here. Let's just see what happens if from that kind of genuine connection. Is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most? Ooh, loving kindness.

Is there a word that cuts the center of who you are? Me. I mean, I honestly feel it. Well, actually, I'd say real. When did you start to notice that you were real? It was the feedback I got, maybe more than anything. You don't have to sort of practice to be real. It's just real.

It just happens. It just happened for you. Yeah. And if I'm hearing correctly, what you're saying is that other people are like, God, Sharon, you are so real. And you're like, oh, okay. That's what this is. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. And then what is concerning for you about the field or the zeitgeist of mindfulness meditation that is just like... I mean, it is like a revolution. And so, I mean, I don't feel concerned in the sense that I need to hold sway over it. I think it's way beyond that. It's an amazing thing and i'm like really excited and full of joy that the practice and practices are getting so available you know and i have a very kind of old-fashioned training which is uh lots of years and so you know when somebody you know sits for an hour and a half and prints up a card and says, I'm a mindfulness teacher, I think, okay.

And sometimes it actually works out really well. And also it's often those people who go into the hardest places. And I think that's just great. But then there are all these people out there and they're kind of alone. And they don't have a community of colleagues and teachers, and they don't have a sense of continuing ed. I find that there's some concern. Yeah, okay. To me, it seems like there has been a stigma for a long time with traditional psychological or psychotherapy. And this feels

to many people, I think like a more direct or a shorter path for the general, general health, or generally healthy people. And, you know, if you were to recommend someone who's listening, or someone who is intrigued by mindfulness and meditation practices, where would you send them to get better? How would you help them? I would say that the best thing, if you're not experienced, or if you are experienced, is to get some body of knowledge about what to expect and what not to expect. Because maybe I'm introduced to someone at a party, maybe these days, the most common comment I hear is, oh, I tried that once, I failed at it.

And then I ask, well, what did you think was supposed to happen? It's usually like I failed at it because I couldn't stop thinking, I couldn't make a good mind, I couldn't have beautiful thoughts. And so we can also be pretty unjust with ourselves in terms of unrealistic standards, and we bring that right into the meditation. And you think you failed when you really were doing fine. So whether it's a class or a book or a recording or an app or something, that will help you just get some sense of like, OK, this is what it's going to look like.

My thoughts are not going to disappear. I can develop a different relationship with them. Something like that. That's really cool. So simple and really bright. My thoughts are not going to go away. So let me just get to know him a little bit better. And then we can actually like, there's that phrase, like program your thoughts or condition your thoughts. You can get better at thinking strategies and actual thoughts. You can get better at thinking strategies and actual thoughts. You can get better at them. But the only way to really know which ones are working and not working is to feel their consequence. Sometimes you have thoughts and it's like, oh, I feel really strong.

I feel like I could do just about anything. Well, that's probably a pretty good thought pattern. And the converse is true as well. Okay. So, so Sharon, when you think about a time in your life when it didn't go according to plan, like it was just a flat out mess. I don't know, like there's hundreds and thousands of things that you can, I'm sure you can think of, but could you anchor to one right now? Yeah. Okay. Oh oh that was too fast i'm joking okay so um how do you explain how do you explain that event to yourself is it internal or external like did it was your it was your your efforts or lack of efforts or skill or lack of skill that created that or was it external I think it was external but I had a definite lack of skill skills the right word in terms of how to deal with

it okay and then do you do you toggle on that okay that's an isolated experience it's very specific to that unique experience that unique condition or is it like global like you know what those kind of things are always going to take place um i think it's more global uh but i learned some skills i actually i didn't learn the skills myself somebody i had to reach out to somebody i was actually reaching out somebody to complain and they showed me a better path and they held held up a mirror, didn't they? Yeah. You don't do it that way. You do it this way.

And I think, oh, you do it that way. That's interesting. I never thought of that. Okay. Okay, good. And then do you have a competitive edge? Do you have a competitive mindset? Yes.

Not as much as I used to. I certainly compete against myself in the sense that I want to do as well or better than I've done before. And that's so much anymore with other people. Okay. Okay. All right. Where does pressure come from? Pressure comes from too much to do and not having said no and wanting to do even more. Is that an internal function or factor for pressure for you?

Or is it more external? Well, ultimately, it's internal because I'm the one who says yes or no. Okay. All right. When you think of the razor's edge of mindfulness, what happens for you? freedom and the possibility of real freedom and being like a whole human being and i also think of people not knowing that you know not understanding that or even believing that boy sharon uh okay so there's so there's so much that you have to offer i'd like what before that we had this this conversation um i thought god i hope i do justice to her insights

yeah so you know and then how how do you think about this thought it all comes down to okay it all comes down to uh presence and then success is? Success is happiness. And my vision is? A world where compassion is understood. Love is?

Love is connection. Happiness is? Wholeness. love is love is connection happiness is homeless i am uh interesting okay good yeah as long as you think so that is awesome yeah i love that and i'm guessing that that comes from a place like god i'm i constantly fascinate myself with the way that i think and the way that i feel but that is really good oh god okay um all right awesome and then sharon what do you hope like you've been you've written about happiness and joy and the path, you know, or many paths maybe it's through technology or whatever, but they know it. And so I hope the world shifts reflecting that knowledge. Very cool.

How do you define or articulate or think about the concept of mastery? I think about it as something so, well, in an ordinary day, I think about it as confidence and clarity to go on. I think it is good to have big aspiration and at the same time honor the moment by moment or day by day execution of that aspiration, so that it doesn't feel so dreary like,

oh God, I wanna be really deeply happy execution of that aspiration you know so that it doesn't feel so dreary like oh god um i want to be you know really deeply happy and i'm like moment by moment what an ordeal you know like uh so that everything we do in in the ordinary uh seemingly minor way um fits into that larger larger picture but there's something about, in a bigger way, I think mastery is when something becomes so much a part of you, it's natural. It looks natural. I love that thought.

It's so clean. There's a phrase inside of sport or a very urban phrase, and I've heard it a lot, but I never mapped it on the mastery until, you know, I've been wanting to understand it better. And there's a phrase that goes like this game recognizes game. Yeah. Right. So, so when you recognize that somebody is just smooth and it's organic and it's natural and at the same time,'s extraordinary and it's like okay he's got game or she's got game yeah but i think it's a very uh clear way of thinking about mastery as well

okay sharon thank you where can we find out more about what you're doing where can we find your books like what what's the right place for people to be connected to? The website is Sharon Salzberg.com. Okay. And is that where they can get your book as well? It continues to link. Yeah. Okay. So it's Sharon S H A R O N Salzberg S A L Z B E R G.

And then what about social media? I'm on Twitter 22 hours a day. It's at Sharon Salzberg and you can find me on Facebook in that way as well. Brilliant. Sharon, thank you for being an influence for so

many people and dedicating your life efforts to understanding compassion and joy and happiness and being able to articulate it in a way that is available and is like you said about yourself interesting so you know seriously thank you for this time uh that we spent and then just congratulations on your body work and what you've done and um how you've contributed to the world well thank you so much this was i can't wait to i never listened to my interviews again, but I'm going to listen to this one because you were fantastic. Good, let's go. Okay, so for

everyone that is listening, go check out Sharon. Check out what she's written, how she's contributed, what she's doing, whether it's social media, if you just want a quick little nuggets here and there, but I definitely recommend reading Sharon's insightsaron's insights and then uh sharon i also want to make a little kind of challenge for people to go sit and listen and pay attention and feel their breathing and could you could you take us away with that thought like um maybe a quick how or how you challenge people yeah yeah i mean i'll i'll guide like a one minute meditation if you want to just sit comfortably you can close your eyes or not and let your attention

settle into your body and find the place where the breath is strongest for you or clearest for you maybe the nostrils or the chest or the abdomen find that place bring your attention there and just rest see if you can feel one

breath. Just a normal, natural breath. And if you get dragged away by sounds or images or emotions or sensations, you can recognize that. And without judgment, see if you can let go gently, and simply return to the feeling of the breath. And if you have to do that like a billion times, it's fine. So there it is. Sharon, thank thank you it's so good and for yeah so so great to spend this time with you so wish you all the best okay thank you again take care bye All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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