Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Michael Rosenbaum, Actor, Producer, Comedian

Episode Date: August 22, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Michael Rosenbaum, actor, producer, and comedian.The diverse actor has worked in over twenty films, such as Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2, Hit and Run, Urban Legend, Sweet November, Bringing Down The House, Pool Hall Junkies and Sorority Boys.Michael has worked with everyone from Bradley Cooper and Sylvester Stallone to Christopher Walken and Clint Eastwood.He portrayed Lex Luthor on the smash hit Smallville for seven years and voiced The Flash on the hit animated series The Justice League Unlimited.In this conversation Michael shares the highs and lows of being an actor in Hollywood – how he’s had to work on caring less what others think and focus on getting to the center of who he truly is and what matters most to him.I appreciated Michael willingness to show vulnerability._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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believe they got to believe he's an undercover cop. They can't know he's an undercover cop. And it's like that moment where I'm like, you're here for a reason. So you're going to either shit your pants and you're going to fall flat and you're going to look an idiot and you're going to embarrass yourself and you're never going to work again. And all those are fantasy. They're bullshit. They're not going to happen. They've never happened. And you're going to go and do your fucking work. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea

for these conversations, for this podcast, is to sit down and learn from people to celebrate what they've come to understand. And these are folks that have dedicated their life efforts towards their craft. And we want to understand how they explain events, their psychological framework, how they make sense of the world, their worldview, their internal worldview, and their external worldview. We also want to understand the mental skills they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way,

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mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Michael Rosenbaum, actor, producer, comedian. He's worked on over 20 films with a family favorite of ours, Guardians of the Galaxy, volume two, super fun movie. And he's worked with legends, Christopher Walken, Clint Eastwood, Sylvester Stallone, Bradley Cooper. He's really been part of some really fun projects. And you also might recognize his work from TV. He's portrayed Lex Luthor on the TV show Smallville for seven years. And he's voiced The Flash on the hit animated series, The Justice League Unlimited. So you'll hear his voice in this podcast. It's a great voice.

And his range, his ability to do Lex Luthor, to do the comedian stuff, to be on the big stage, if you will, for sure he's got range. And in this conversation, he shares both the highs and the lows of being an actor in Hollywood and how he's had to work on flat out caring less about what others think of him and focusing on getting to the center of who he truly is and what matters most to him. And there's a phrase that football coaches often use when an athlete does something amazing that they're evaluating. And they say things like, he just jumps right off the tape. And it means that there's something about the athlete that's special. And Michael has it. And it's, it's the way that he doesn't pretend to be someone, someone else, someone for others approval.

It's the way that he just is like we all are a work in progress. And I hope that that translates in this conversation. And as a quick little chin check, like we can all do this, take a quick beat to think about how open and curious and humble and vulnerable, how much of a work in progress you are that we are on a regular basis. And this conversation hopefully should remind you about that. And then also check in how you do you with friends and family or at work, or when you're doing something public, like presenting or performing, are you authentic across all three? And alignment of who you are across environments goes far deeper than performance

and really taps into the depths of mental wellness and mental strength. And it's a far deeper conversation than performance. And obviously high performance is of interest, but the stability and durability for the long game is really a worthwhile investment for all of us, whether it's for relationships and connections or whether it is pursuing a life and craft of high performance. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Michael Rosenbaum. Are we rolling already? This is great. We should be rolling. You never know.

Can you swear on this? Do anything you want. You can be you. That's the whole kind of purpose. Be you, already? This is great. We should be rolling. Can you swear on this? Do anything you want. You be you. That's the whole kind of purpose. Be you. This is me. You know, this is now that we're rolling, Michael, thank you for having me on the show. I think this is, you know, I was, I was getting nervous with you because first of all, you were my favorite guest on my podcast and I've had some big celebrities and you're not a big celebrity. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, you're just a regular guy who helps people conquer their fears and all these great things. But it was interesting because it felt like therapy for me. Kind of glib.

No, it's my favorite. Seriously. I would rave about you. Bro, you've had some studs on your podcast. But it doesn't matter. Thank you. I already know how to promote your show. I'm like, you may not know this guy, but you need to know him.

Because that's how I promote your show. I'm like, you may not know this guy, but you need to know him because that's how I feel about you. Because, you know, and by the way, this is the first podcast I've ever been on where you make me take a fucking test before I come on the podcast. So it's like, Michael, talk about your greatest adventure. Talk about what does mastery mean? I'm like, Oh my God, I'm going to fail another test. I felt like I'm back in high school. I'm a failure. Well, we do need to make sure that, you know, you got something to say, but you know what, in fairness, like from our podcast that we did on your show, I had so much fun. And I think I said to you that I, okay, comedians are wicked smart. And so I'm always nervous around comedians because I love it. It's exciting right on the edge. And I'm never sure

what's going to come out of someone's mouth. So when I was going on your show, I was like, okay, I got to have my game on. You said that. You said, because I look at you and I was scared because I was like, this is a guy who never, he conquers fear. He can't have fear. He can't be nervous about anything. So I'm telling you, oh my God, I'm nervous. I want this guy to like me. Michael Gervais got to like me. I want him to leave thinking, hey, this was a really enjoyable podcast because I have that insatiable, it's never good enough. I have to, I want people to like me, which I want to talk to you about because I don't want to continue that.

You don't, you're done with it. You want people to like you, of course, but it shouldn't be the be all end all. And I remember you telling me a story. Remember the story? No. When you surfed, when you were young. Oh. And you probably never told people that on here, have you? No, it changed a lot. Yeah.

What changed a lot? The story? No, no. You know, actually I've been studying memory lately. Just I've been fascinated by it. And I sometimes get confused that am I remembering the memory of the last time I told the story or am I actually remembering the origin of the story, the experience? And so that's actually pretty common for people is that as we tell stories, they slowly shift and morph into something that is, you know, I don't know, based on, it becomes more interesting as I like to say, like some, my mom will tell me a joke and I know the joke is somewhere there, but it's not that great of a joke, but you're better at it. I know how to tell a story better than my mother.

So her joke, I know how to add to it, put a little New Yorker voice on it. Everybody's like, everybody's enjoying it now. And it becomes, and that's what I like to do. But I remember that your story specifically, because I was kind of, it just, it, it just really, I understood you and I understood that feeling of you were surfing and this other surfer who was winning and you were really good and you didn't do well on your, what do you call the surf? What is it called? Competitive surfing. Yeah. But there's a, there's a, each, each contest is a called a,

a heat. That's what it was a heat yeah and i never surfed obviously just the web but you're the dark web or the other web all webs all webs but they said the guy comes by you and swims by you and says hey gervais stop worrying about what other people think about you and i remember you looked like what you told me was like, holy shit, he's right. How did he know that? How did he know that? How did he know? And it made me think, I think we all do that.

I think, you know, when I go into a room, I'm very insecure. You would know that. You never know that. Because I fake it. I guess that's, I don't know what it is, but I just, I can't, you can't let anybody know that you're nervous or you're, especially in this industry, the entertainment industry, or you walk into a meeting or you're trying to sell a project and you look nervous or you don't look that if you don't have confidence, you're gone, you're done. So I've learned how to sort of

channel that. Yeah. So you've, you're one of your skills is to know how to present well and to be the life of the party and to articulate clearly and be funny and you have great timing and storytelling and you are able to put on the right show for people as a showman that's an important skill that is i think that you know i always used to think you know when i was younger it's like you know i'm not very smart my dad got 14 20 on the sats my brother's smarter than me they called him the smart one i was the one. It's just the things you remember as a kid in your developmental stages. It's just, it's hard to like, to hard to beat. Cause you always think of you as like that small kid who didn't, who was, you know, was picked on or, you know, didn't have a lot of confidence or.

Did that happen for you? You got picked on? I got picked on a little bit. I was just always the shortest kid in my high school. And I remember girls just like this one, they weren't really mean, but they're just like, oh, little Rosie, look how cute you are. You're just little Rosie. When did you grow? Because you're not short now. I had a growth spurt.

It's probably why I have back problems. But I grew, after my high school year, I grew like eight or nine inches. I was five foot three as a graduating senior. Oh, you were short? Maybe five foot three. I set up my license. A lot shorter than you are now. Yeah.

Yeah. So I grew like eight or nine inches. So I'm feet now and then it was uh it was a game changer but i remember like those like coming back home for a reunion or something and those same girls weren't mean to me were now sort of attracted to me maybe it's because i was on in movies and stuff it wasn't because of anything else see that's how my mind works i'm like why can't you just say maybe you're handsome now maybe you're a little taller. It's because of your externals, not your internals. Yeah.

Your externals, which is like the things that you do rather than the things that you are. Yeah. I agree. I think I like to think that I like to think sometimes your friends tell you like, well, you know why they're hanging out because you're, you were on that show or you're in that movie and you start to question like, does anybody really like me for me? Well, that's a real deal for you guys. That's a real deal. I mean, that's why I think I'm lucky because I've had the same friends for a long, I think you could, I'm a good judge of character, a very good judge of character. That

may be one of my best traits, except for my, except for my ex. Um, you just got into that. You sneak that in. No, well, it just happened. It just happened. Yeah, we can get into that. We will. I mean, when I say it just happened, she broke up with me yesterday.

But it's fine. That's why I'm glad I'm here. I'm glad I'm here today. Bro, we are not doing therapy. I'm telling you right now. That is not what we're doing. Solely, I appreciate you laughing. Your face is redder than the tip of my penis right now i appreciate you really enjoying what's up so my another can i say penis yeah you say anything you want sully's here joining us sully look how

red-faced he is um trying to hold it together right now so so what were you saying say that again we are not doing therapy that is not what we're doing i'm not saying it's therapy but i just it occurred to me that this was uh a mastery it's like, you know, and what your show is about. And for a second, I was like, okay, you're going to, you're talking, you talk mostly to people who have conquered their fears, who have done all these things, who have such success that, but then I thought, okay, well, that's not me exactly. I'm still a work in progress. But then I thought that's what mastery is for me. And mastery is, you know, you don't master anything. In fact, you should change the title of your show, Michael. Tell me more. No, no, no, you shouldn't. But I think you're

onto something. I am because I think I, for master mastery for me is, you know, I read somewhere, one of your, uh, one of your guests said, uh, truth, you know, mastery is finding the truth about, you know, maybe who you are. And, but for me, I think it's like, it's okay to fail. It's okay to, it's, it's, it's almost like having a vision and doing whatever it takes to make that come to fruition and to achieve your goals and what you want to do and not like, let people like that surfer say, you know, you know, people's ideas of you, it's none of your business what people think. Somebody told me that once, what they think of you. And, um, I feel like

for me, that's what I have to get through. I think that's what a lot of people have to get through is like, don't worry about what everyone else thinks of you. If you're gonna go on stage as a comedian, you can't think, are they going to laugh? You just have to sell the joke. You have to go up and try it. And if you fail, you make the joke better and you just keep going. And for me, that's what mastery is. I always said it was kind of profound. Like I think in, um, December I got sick, I was sick for a couple months. And I said, this is the year of discovery and recovery for me. And I really didn't know what I meant other than I need to get better. I need to recover from this illness and I need to

discover more about myself because I'm getting to the age where I'm not old, I'm 45, but I don't want to be 85 and still go, who are you, dude? And that to me is I'm trying, I'm doing mindfulness. I'm going to therapy. I'm figuring out what makes me happy, what makes me tick, not doing things for other people. So when you say we're not doing therapy, I'm not, I'm doing my own therapy. I'm working for myself. So to me, that's what mastery is. It's like, I'm going to try to find out who I really am and be happy with who I am. And that's, that to me will be mastering. Is this interview over? Bro, that's so good.

And I'll tell you, I've asked that question to hundreds, thousands of people in my life, hundreds on the show and thousands in life. And you just hit on some big time threads that you would not be able to know based on because of conversations I've had that mastery is not, it is a process. It's about understanding. It's about getting to the real stuff in life. And, but there is a command of skill that is required. Yeah. Command of some sort of craft command of some sort of internal experience. And you're saying, listen, I'm going to work. I'm in the process. I'm in the thick of it. And that's why I wanted to have the conversation with you because you've got great success. I really, what I want to do is I had so much fun on your pod in the conversation. I just wanted to try to like, see if we could capture that again or actually capture something new and different. Sure. Similar energy. Yeah, it was just great. But what you're pulling on is I think something that I relate to, and I think millions of people relate to, which is I'm trying to figure out who I am. What am I doing here? What are we all doing

here? And grokking with those big questions is not easy. It is so much easier. And you still do that today with all the training, with all the reading and all the, you know, uh, you still go through, I think we all go through it. There's no, and that gets to a point where I think of when I think of all that, I think of becoming perfect, which is a fantasy. Yeah. I'm not about that. And no, I'm not either because it's not a reality to be perfectionism is like something like, I always think I have to be perfect at everything. I have to be the funniest. I have to be this or everything else. It's just impossible to ever be happy. Yeah. Well, so back to your point, like my job really is to be me and your job is to be you. And then if we can do that really well, then we're on to something, you know? And so that is not easy to do if you don't know who you are. And then to try to figure out purpose. So purpose has three components to it. It's bigger than you. It matters to you. And it's somewhere in the future. You know, it's not like you can have, that's big

purpose. Purpose is a big P there's small purpose. So part of, part of our day today, my purpose was to show up here with you. That's the right purpose, right? It's not my life purpose, but it was my day part of my daily purpose. So snapping together small, actionable things and purpose like what we're doing today right now, and if it maps and snaps into a longer vision, that's what this is about. So for me, I'm still trying to figure out who I am at my core and center, but I'm closer than I was yesterday and far closer than I was 10 years ago. And you're doing things every day that will help you get to the bigger purpose, the future purpose, whatever that is. So, well, I think I have a sense of what that is for me. I do have a sense of a better understanding of, of what I'm

doing here. And the thing that I'm most fascinated by that comes the easiest to me is understanding how the mind works and how to live in the present moment more often in high stakes environments. And some of the highest stakes environments are in quiet moments, right? Sometimes the obvious is when it's consequential and life is on the line and limb is on the line. And that's been the training ground for me, but to live in the present moment, to know how to condition your mind, to live in the present moment. I feel like my purpose is to amplify that it's to as many people as I possibly can. That's, that's the key to is, is being present. I mean, I mean,

everyone talks about that and I know I didn't understand what that means, what that meant. And people forever would just be present, be in the moment. And I remember even as a child, even today, like, you know, going to Disney world with my friend, my family, and having the video, the camera, the camcorder and filming everything. And my uncle said, Michael, you're missing the whole trip. You're recording everything. And I feel like that spoke volumes to me.

I just remember him saying that. He's a psychologist. But regardless, it was a good point. It's like, just be present. Enjoy it. And I think that's what everybody does nowadays. I think with their phones and knowing the connection, it's hard. Should we kill Selfie6?

Huh? Should we kill them? We should kill Selfie6. Maybe. I think we should. But I just, I find that, you know, it's like even a moment if you just, you're lost in it and you're filming everything or you're taping stuff or you're Instagramming, just being mindful and saying, Hey, I'm going to take this much time each day and just be present. How do you do it? So what is your work right now? Uh, you know, I wake up every morning. I don't feel fulfilled unless I wake up and I meditate.

And I, and I, for me with ADD, I need some guided meditation and I hit this app. It's so simple. And it's a 20 minute, 15 to 20 minutes. And I just, even though when you start thinking about, oh my God, I got to do this, I get brought back into something, my breathing or sounds or, or whatever it is, almost nothingness, just being here. And like my dog, I could hear his little collar bell and I go, okay, I hear that I'm present. I'm, I hear some trees out, you know, the leaves. So what you just said was, it took me a long time to figure that out. Right. Which was, so when the dog rings, many people, not myself, early days, that's a distraction. God bless it. I can't, you know, like the dog, but that's the moment of awareness. Like I'm aware of that. And then, and then I have the choice. Do I want to go further with that or bring it back to, I don't know, whatever I was focusing on or the intent of that 15 or 20 minute meditation.

So that's a big time awareness. Like that, that is the skill of awareness and refocusing, which is you just have to practice it. Yeah. And my mind will go, it's okay. Like, in fact, this woman who's speaking in the meditation, she's like, it's okay for your mind to drift into thought. Thoughts are not the enemy. And I'm like, okay, yeah. And I start thinking about the X and you know, oh my gosh, all these things that happened. And, and then I just go, okay, that's enough thinking of that. Let's go back to the breath. We, we acknowledged it. It's fine. I'm not being punished for thinking. I just want, and I get back to just the space of like, Hey, let's be here. Let's be now. And for years, I always, I think growing up in Indiana, a small town,

sort of Bible belt, you know, what was the name of the town? Evansville, Indiana, Newburgh, Indiana, but Evansville, I think a few years ago was ranked the number two most obese city in the country and number five in depression. So I'm doing really fucking well, Michael. Yeah. But I think if you ever if I was a kid and someone said mindfulness, meditation, you get the shit beat out of you. Or even, you know, now people you talk about like I go home and I have some good friends there. It's like, yeah, meditating. I'm like, man, what the hell is wrong with you?

Meditating. In fact, Sully probably was a guy for a long time. Your buddy here, Sully, he probably didn't meditate. He probably still doesn't, does he? You do now. Isn't it amazing how you say, well, you know, screw that. I'm too tough for that. I'm too cool for that.

That's for hippie shit or whatever it is. People think that. It's like this. I can get through. I don't need therapy. I don't need anybody. I'm a man. And then you realize you're not, you're not that tough or no matter how tough you are, you need some help. You need some guidance. You need some like presence. You need to kind of be grounded. You need to figure shit out because we're all going

in the same damn place, man. And I, and I feel I feel like I know I feel like my friend, not to name drop, but my friend Carrie Fisher, Princess Leia. God bless her. She's one of my good friends. And she used to give me the best advice that she never took. I always felt like she got so much from her therapy, but she didn't really use that therapy as much as she should have. And I feel like I do that too. I think maybe a lot of people do. But I hear some great, you know, when you're talking or when my therapist is talking or just anybody has an idea or says something that's profound.

I capture that. I really do. I embrace it, but I don't always follow through with it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life.

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You know what I think? So these Instagram gems or these quick fixes, yeah, it's quick or even like a pearl of wisdom that someone shares with you. I think that the way to make that really work for you or for anybody is when you know your framework. So when you have a framework, it's a fancy word for if you think about all the different psychological principles and psychology is a filter. Right. So it's the way that you engage in information, the way that you also project your thinking. So psychology goes two ways. It's the filter of which you interpret the world. And it's also the projection of what you see the future through. So, or whatever's happening right now, even that being said, you have a framework, but if you're not clear with the framework, then you hear this pearl or this wisdom or whatever. And you're like,

that's amazing. But where's it fit? Where's it fit? And then, then you screenshot it and then it sits in your camera. And then two months later you look at that and go, Oh yeah, that was cool.

That was a good one. Why don't you fucking do anything with that? If it was so profound, it was so meaningful. And I think that's true. It's like when you, when you see something like, how do I make this work for me? That's right. How do I really, this, this means something to me. It's made me stop and think

this is right. This is healthy. So what do I do to make this better? And I think that's with everything with the relationship. If something doesn't work, it's like, Hey, remember what didn't work and try to fix it next time. You know, no one's perfect. And I take it a step further in remembering is important, but when you feel something, our brains are amazing. That's how we encode memory. One of the ways we encode memory is through emotions. So when you feel something greatly, it's in there. Isn't that something, no matter how bad it is or how good it is, you remember that. Yeah. Well, that's, that's for survival, right? When something is awful, terrifying, scary, heartbreaking, smells bad, we encode that into memory much rich in much richer ways. Yeah. And so that is part of the survival mechanism. So

the things that are most painful, we remember so that we don't repeat them again, unless we're hardheaded, numb ourselves down with this, that, other distractions right man and i think i did that you know drink and drug and conversations and porn or whatever the the vice is for somebody it numbs us from stuff rather than attuning us to the pain so there's an insight that i've come to really embrace which is the reason we change is because of pain how we grow is by being uncomfortable. Wholeheartedly. And the first thing that comes to mind is I remember six years ago, I broke up with a girl and then I fought to get her back because I realized what I lost. I lost. And sometimes I realized then you don't change your pattern or your behavior until you lose something. And when you lose something, unless

you're crazy, you know, whatever that is, and you're, you know, you're a psychopath, but if you lose something and you know, it's your fault that it happened, I never forgot it. And so what I would do was the extreme, which the other relationships, relationships that I was in, I would keep them longer. I would stay in them longer, even if they weren't healthy, because I didn't want to feel that if I break this off or I stop this, I don't want to go back to feeling like that. That's what happened. And then realizing, Hey, when you know, something's not right. You knew, I knew after I broke up with that girl, it was for the wrong reasons. You stayed for the wrong reasons. Well, I broke up for the wrong reasons. I broke up for the wrong reasons with broke up for the wrong reasons with the one that that was the hurtful loss that was like where i learned and then i would stay in

stay in the new relationship with someone else for the wrong reasons for the wrong reasons because i was like okay i can't i don't because i didn't want to feel like i did when i broke it off too soon with the other that's right woman yeah and so for me it was that convoluted sort of gray relationships tricky they're really tricky so hard and let me tell you something i have never this just happened with the relationship i told you guys i've never been more passionate about a woman than this last relationship never been more passionate never been what i thought in love like this never enjoyed someone, but never have been hurt by someone so much in the same relationship. When did it end?

Yesterday. No, for real. For real. You're talking about it like this though. So you've got like this filter on right now. Well, what do you mean by filter? Well, like you're talking about it like it's almost a third person, like you're doing surgery. Like this is what happened.

I was badly hurt. Well, I don't want to like, you know, and not that you'll listen to this, but I just, there's, there's some things that, uh, not to be personal that I couldn't deal with. And it's not to say my way or the highway, but like, you know, if you break your foot, you go to the hospital and you put a cast on, you get an x-ray. If you, you know, you know what I'm saying? And I just was like, this is how it has to happen or it's not going to happen. And that broke your heart. Well, the, how it went down because, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's hard. I felt like I've never been so good to someone. So it definitely like you're catching me on a moment where I'm vulnerable and

I'm very like, you know, I'll take care of you. I promise. No, no, no, no. This isn't therapy for me, but I'm saying like I'm, I've already feel the learning curve. I already know right now what I don't ever fucking want again. I swear to God. And I know the good parts that there were. I want that again.

So I want passion again. I want love. I want to be loved. I want to be as good as I can be to someone, but I also want them to reciprocate. And also if something doesn't work, like I've learned, like I, I get very defensive. Like I, in the past where I'm not a fighter, I don't, I never fight with any of the girls that I've ever gone out with, but I get like, uh, I'm from New York and everybody would talked loudly, you know, but we didn't yell, you know, Sully, but you're from where? Boston.

You're fucking louder. And you know, I get passionate and someone, when someone says something, you know, it's weird when I'm trying to get better at this, but when someone questions my integrity or I get weird at the certain, like if somebody says I'm late, which I never am late, I'm like, what the fuck are you talking? It's so defensive about that because I'm never late. So if you're telling me something about myself that I know is not true, for some reason I get upset. It makes me very unhappy that you're calling me out on something that's absolutely not true. And I don't give a fuck who you are when you tell me I've talked to,

you know, somebody talks to me in a certain way and then maybe that's from growing up maybe that's something i have to work on but when someone talks to me a certain way i go from the nicest guy in the world to don't ever fucking talk to me like that do you repair those relationships or yeah i've never really had this i mean in this relationship there was a little bit but we didn't really fight a lot it was just like you know I'm working on myself and some, some people don't choose to work on themselves. And, you know, I, I'll tell you something as a, just a, not a consolation, but as a way to relate to what you're talking about is

that when I went through one of my, one of my mentors said to me when I was starting my graduate program and he said, Hey, listen, I just want to say something to you is that you're going to go on this journey and it's all about the interior. You're going to learn stuff about yourself because that's how you do things. Mike, this is not going to be an academic exercise for you and you're going to go figure some stuff out. Be careful. I said, Whoa, what do you mean? He said, I'm not sure if your wife is going to do the same. I don't know. And what oftentimes happens to people is when one person grows at a fast clip and the other one's not, you really need to pay attention to that. And so I immediately went home and told my wife that, and she says, get the fuck out of here. What are we talking about? That's not

going to happen. You know, but we had the conversation like, okay, we both got to figure out how to grow. Cause that's, so you're aware of it, but we had the conversation like, okay, we both got to figure out how to grow. So you're aware of it as long as there's an awareness. Right. That's exactly right. So anyways, I relate. You know, what I take from this is I wouldn't trade it for the world. Love the girl.

And again, like what I told you, I want that feeling again. I want that passion. It ended fine. I mean, it didn't end fine, but it's like, you know, I think the thing that kind of shocked me was it went from, I love you so much to in within 24 hours. Hey, I don't hate you. I'm not mad at you. I totally want to be friends. And it was just like, what do you, it was just like, it felt like it was just such a disconnect. Like how could someone disconnect that fast? Which kind of scared me a little bit. I then said, wow, if someone can disconnect that fast, was it really love after all for her? Like for me, I felt love, but how real was it it so I think that how tell me what love is for you I mean love is unconditional I mean it's that that's to me obvious the most obvious thing about love is you love someone with all their faults and all their you know greatness and

and being comfortable with someone and being, being yourself. I think that, you know, I felt truly like myself around her. And that was something I didn't think about anything other than just being me and, and allowing her to be her. And it was the first time that being in a relationship where she would do things that normally would, I'd go, Oh, I didn't care. I just loved her. I loved every bit of her. And that was a great feeling where I didn't care if she fucking farted. It didn't not to be go from serious to fart, but I'm telling you when I don't care, like it, it just, whatever she did, it didn't matter. And I go, Oh my God, that's so gross. Stop that. What do you do? And it became, it was just funny. It was easy. I could't care. Like it, it just, whatever she did, it didn't matter. And I go, hell my God, that's so gross. Stop that. What do you do? And it became, it was just funny. It was easy.

I could do nothing. We always talked about it. We could do nothing for days on end, nothing. And that, that was a good feeling. And that felt to me, it was, that was love to be able to just do nothing with someone and not always have to, you know, people in this business or in any business, they're always trying to keep busy. How do I keep busy? How do I do more and more and more and more and more? And I always think that the reason they do that, and I could be wrong, and you'll probably have an answer for this, is that being alone too long or being with themselves or being in their own mind is probably not good for them. That's how they perceive it. And so I, it's almost like a challenge to

myself where I'm like, I have been spending a lot more time by myself and trying not to be as, even though I'm busy, I'm like, I think that that's not the greatest way to live when you're avoiding you, the number one person in your life. It's gotta be you. You've got to take care of yourself. That honest inventory of who you are can be really dark. It can be really challenging to do that. That's where one of the accelerants of becoming is why mindfulness is so powerful, right? And so I just read an article the other day. It was in a populated in a big time mag, a reputable, not magazine, but a newspaper it's in the title was something around why we should not have mindfulness at work. And so I'm like, huh? So that's actually a bit like I'm, I'm all about that. And according to research and this, that, and the other, and it was, you know, some

smart dudes that wrote it. And they said, basically mindfulness at work might get in the way of motivation. So I kept reading and thinking about it and I'm like, this is, this is fricking wrong. That's not what this is about is that we're busy, busy, busy, busy. We're operating from a model that we need to do more to be more. We need to do extraordinary things to be extraordinary. So the doing part is, is outweighing the being part and best in the world. Yeah. Best in the world are flipping that model on its head. And I talk about all the time with folks and they're saying, no, no, no, I need to be where my feet are. And when I'm there, my flow, the flow happens and I'm just like, I'm in that good space. And

the doing comes from being, and it's fundamentally different. So I'm reading this article and I'm like starting to get agitated because the idea that no, no, no, we should, our workplaces should be amplified by external motivation. What, what, what are we talking about? More money. Like our bosses should say we need to make more. Our people need to make us more money and have a bottom line. Yes, that's true. But the way to get the most out of people is to help them get the most out of life. And how do you do that? It's not by doing more. It's by being more, being more creative, more grounded, more authentic, more present, more connected to oneself. And when you can connect to oneself better, you can connect to others. And every business that we're in is a

relationship-based business. Every business we're in, whether it's your industry, my industry, it does not matter. We don't, nobody does this alone. So how about it? How about we accelerate relationships with ourselves to accelerate relationship with others? And one of the great ways to do it in the noisy, distracting world that we're in is to spend some time to listen, stop fricking talking so much and listen, right? And it ain't easy to do because we've got, we got dopamine in our phone that, you know, cocaine and dopamine are the, are the neurotransmitters of our time, uh, the drug of our time. And it's in our phone. Every time we pick up Instagram to see what happened or Twitter or email inbox, that's why we pick up our inbox first thing in

the morning. Maybe the least productive things we can do. Something there I can look at. Yes. Wow. It's a sickness. It is. So what's the, what's the anecdote for you? Is it being quiet? I don't know if that's possible for me to be quiet. Um, you know, before I forget. Training being quiet.

Yeah. I think it's, it's just like for the first time in my life, I I've always been busy since I graduated college and doing plays and moving to New York to do off Broadway and then getting a gig for this Clint Eastwood movie and then getting another movie and TV show. And I look back and I'm like, wow, I've done 25 movies. I did hundreds of episodes of television and cartoons and voiceovers and video games and plays and directed a movie. And I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm telling you all these things because I almost feel like I've, I've done it. It's like, what are you doing? Okay.

You've done all these things and okay. You haven't won an Oscar and you haven't done whatever, but what do you need? What do you need to be happy? And I have not been alone very often in those many years that I've been doing this. And I haven't dealt with issues that have been piling up. It's like a hoarder. It's just, you're adding more and you're adding more and you're just avoiding problems, avoiding things that need to be taken care of. You can't just leave a car on the driveway for 20 years. You got to tune it up. You got to put some oil in it. You got to take care of it. And I wasn't really taking care of myself. And I think that's why I hit a wall come December. And I just was exhausted from doing too much, doing too much. I'm like, I want to be a stand-up

comedian. Okay. I'm going to go on stage for six months and do five shows a week and be up late and working on my stuff. And I want to be a musician and I'm going to, I'm going to direct a movie. I'm going to be executive producer and lead actor on the show. I'm going to, it's always, always, always. I'm like, who are you doing this for? And why are you doing it? And is it, is it because you want to please people? Is you want to please your agent? You want everybody to know that you're on TV. You want everybody to know you're a working actor. And so when I hit this wall, I thought, okay, now's the time to really figure this shit out. If you're going to figure it out at any moment in your life, now is the time.

45 years old, single, no kids, and the whole purpose thing. What is that? And for you, you just said something again that was profound, that is so easy. Every day there's a purpose. Like the purpose right now is us having this conversation, which is helpful and hopefully helpful to other people. And what's tomorrow's purpose? And filling, I'll add to that, it's filling those days with things that add purpose, that are purposeful. And I think that when you just fill your schedule with sort of mundane, redundant, repetitive, fucking, okay, I got to train at one. And then at three o'clock, I'm going to go get a, you know, a fruit pie over at Sully's. And well, you know, it's like you have these things. It's great to have a schedule and the, but you need to do other things that are purpose. Like what can I do today? Even if it's simple, let's take a walk with the dog. Let's go visit a shelter. Let's go help somebody. Let's do something. It's more fulfilling. I found. And I look at all these

celebrities and I have a lot of celebrity friends and I really look at them and I'm one of them. Some of them are hugely successful. As you know, you've worked with them hugely. Biggest directors, actors. And a lot of times I look at them and I'm like, you're a miserable fucking, you're miserable. Some of them, you're like, I'm not trading any of this. I wouldn't, even though I get miserable, we all get, I'm telling you, I said this to my friend Jess here. I said, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't want to have that you, I said this to my friend, Jess here. I said,

I wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't want to have that life. I don't want to be that busy. I don't want to always nonstop. Like I, it almost looks like some of their heads are just going to explode and they have so much money and you think they have the world. And if you don't have a grasp on who you are and take that time for yourself, you will implode somehow. Yeah. So how about you can be strike the word busy and put active. Right. I don't always use the right words.

No, no. Well, I'm just saying as just a fun little play on words here. Let's say it is possible to be highly active and peaceful. So you could say busy if we wanted to right now, just, but not to complicate things is that you can be busy, busy, busy, busy, but really present and really grounded and really joyful. Like it is possible to have both. Do you know what makes me feel active or present the most? And I use busy, but active, I like. And my ex-girlfriend said this to me, she goes, you're always doing ice hockey and softball and barbecues or whatever. And I said, yeah,

playing ice hockey on Monday nights with the boys for an hour and a half is just, my mind is on doing one thing, making a cool pass, scoring a goal, having some camaraderie and just some conversations that are just, just being present in the game. And that's why sports are so amazing to me. Like I wish that I could have been an athlete, you know, instead of, to me, I've always wanted to be an athlete. I always wanted to be, you know, every day it's like a game. It's not, look, it's not easy. They go through a lot of, they face a lot of adversity, but to me, these two times a week or three times a week where I just get to go hit a softball and hang out and be present, even something that sounds so little to me that, that's the best feeling. Same when, you know, it's time to do your deal on,

rip your lines or being in, in actor, you know, mode, like all of that stuff is forcing, it's a forcing function to be present. It is, but I can't say that it's such a, it's such, it's weird. You say that because I've been sort of questioning what I want now, what I'm doing. This is the whole kind of idea for the last year, the recovery discovery. And you know, do I still love acting? I remember how ambitious I was I remember like it was the be all end all it was I want to get this part I'd fight for it I'd kill it and I'd get it and or I wouldn't and I'd go after the next thing and that fire sometimes I feel like the fire's kind of gone in a way I know it's still like there's some fumes or there's some

little there's a little spark there and that could, but the excitement that I have, I get out of playing ice hockey or softball or fun activities. To me, I have, that is the best feeling I have of disconnecting. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine.

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C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Did you want to master the craft of acting? Yeah, I think, I think I always, you know, a lot of people think they can just come out and, you know, acting is easy. I don't know how many relatives have told me I could do that. They're like, Oh, I'm really good looking. I can come out and be an actor. Like, you know, I don't know about that. Um, I went to school, I studied, I did plays. I really researched. I knew that I had some natural ability and my professors always said, you've got something about you. It's just a natural thing. And I go, but that's only going to get me so far. If I don't have the chops, I'm not going to become a great actor. I'm not going to become a good actor, whatever

I am, whatever people's perception of me is. Some people will be like, I don't know where the fuck this guy is. He's talking about his ex. He's fucked up. But I will tell you that when you're doing anything, you want to do anything. It's taking you years to do what you do, Mike. Years. And you're still learning every day. You're coming up with something. Wow, I read this.

And they don't think mindfulness should be at the workplace. You're always striving for bigger and better. And that's something that you have to keep alive. And I think if you stop doing that, would you lose some of this and kind of fall back into the old Mike? And for me, I just feel like I had that fire. I want to be a great actor. What do I have to do? I have to do all these things. I have to do plays. I have to study. I have to work on me. I have to go to the gym. I have to stay present. I have to whatever it is. But I want to learn to apply that to either I want to get that fire back, that spark back and revisit all this or have a new ambition,

have a new fire. And and so that's what I'm kind of searching for. I'm kind of figuring out what it is. I may come back to you in a year and say dude i figured it out like i'm gonna go back to acting still i'm still doing it not to say i'm still working i'm still doing movies i'm still doing things but and you know it's funny you on my podcast that was really funny um inside of you with michael rosenbaum i'm on itunes free uh wait hold on seriously though It's a good pod. And you've released, you released, I think eight or 10.

Like you, we just had a relaunch. It was a relaunch. Yeah. So on a Ferris's company, uh, unqualified there in SIM, they're, they're producing it now.

And so, you know, we're editing episodes. We're just like, we have just a brand new relaunch and it's just taken off. And it's great. Sounds great. And it's just the fun.

And you know what? I didn't want to do a fucking podcast. Okay.'t and this guy rob who's my kind of like i don't want to say sidekick but i'm going to say sidekick because i can't think of a better word uh this guy i like to pick on who's on the show with me what's up rob he's my buddy if he's listening he was like no you should do it you'd be great at this and i go fuck it all right so it started out i was, what is this podcast? I'll just interview people, celebrities, athletes, actors, whatever. And that's what it started out as. I didn't know what, how we should define this, but what happened was something very

amazing. And when I talk about fire and I talk about ambition, I talk about like excitement and purpose. I have to say that this has become a podcast where it's not only therapy. I think for me and even the guest, I just had Jennifer Love Hewitt on it. She was crying. And she thanked me after. And I was like, why? She goes, I just really loved our conversation. Like, I love talking to you, Mike. And I felt like, well, did you, she just said, thank you. Did I help her? Did wow, all these people are tweeting me like, thanks for opening up about depression and anxiety and Kristen Bell. And I didn't know she had anxiety and depression. And all of a sudden I realize that these conversations

that I'm having with people on the podcast and you're having, it just, it's comforting. It's comforting to not only me and the person, but people who are listening, who can relate on a different level. Nick, right. I mean, it's so beautiful for years before social media. The only reference points we really had are what we saw on TV and our family and friends and local folks. And what we're, many of us were doing is projecting our highlight reels, right? Cause you know, like we just want to show that we're okay and that way maybe we'll be accepted and fit in and that need for belonging is a real deal like it's a really strong need and then social media hits right in some weird way and now we it's not making us healthier we're

projecting even more of our highlight reels yeah so these long form deep rich conversations that that you're engaging in and i am as well and we're doing here is that it's pulling back the curtain and saying, listen, there's a calling for us to want to understand what's true and what's real, what's authentic, what's beautiful and good and ugly. And there's no way to do it in a short little 45 second snip, a three minute interview. And so the first time that I was on somebody else's podcast was rich roll. Afterwards I said, this is great. Like I got to actually explore parts of me that I haven't talked about. And I said, I want to do that more. And so, okay, so now let's actually get into the podcast. You and me. All right. Okay. You ready for this? Yeah. Okay. Now we're going to're gonna go deep now we're gonna go deep as if we haven't already but i i just liked what you just said that was really profound did you know that how profound that was no i don't i i just it just it just hit me it was like i think also i just want to add to that before

we go into the podcast i feel like it was a joke kind of i know because we've been talking like what the fuck is he talking about more questions I'm going to fail again I'm going to fail this test I think that people are tired those people that are

listening to our podcasts are actually it's refreshing because it's not just an Instagram 45 second look at me

look at me I have no talent but I'm doing something I hate to say that but I'm an aggregate dick but like they have billions of followers and people like look up to them and they're just doing whatever. But where we're doing is I hope is offering someone just something that's real,

something that is tangible, something that's just like, I stopped worrying about what everybody thought of me. And I just go, Hey, I'm going to talk freely. And I'm going to say how fucked up I am. If I talk about a relationship, or if I talk about how I'm trying to fix myself or talk to you about your shit, I don't even know. I didn't know it was going to be interesting, but it's real. Well, here's what we're doing, right? So we all, we want our sons and daughters and nieces and nephews and ourselves to live a life that has courage and conviction. Okay. Let's just stay on courage for just a minute to do things that are difficult to do in the face of challenge and adversity when it's not popular to do so courage.

Now, the way to courage is vulnerability. So what you and I are doing in these conversations, what you're doing more than I am in this conversation right now is exercising vulnerability. And the whole purpose of these conversations is to amplify like, hey, listen, we all need to understand vulnerability because it's at the epicenter of being able to live courageously, to get to the truth and be strong enough to not have to protect oneself from what others think. So the vulnerability creates courage to not care. And the empathy then follows empathy then follows on later by saying, I can love you and not care what you think about me. Cause I've done the work. I've done that vulnerable based work to say, this is who I really am. And I'm not going to hold up the placards anymore. I hope you're right. Yeah. And I think you are because of, because I'm tired of the other way, but there's a, but there's a risk. The risk is some people are going to say,

what a tool. I don't give a shit. Yeah, what a tool. But you know what? The other way wasn't working for me. It doesn't work. Me covering up everything. But it worked for a while. Look, you are well-respected. You're quote-unquote famous. You've made good... No, I say that because fame is relative.

You know, like I'm famous amongst my friends, my family. And you'm famous amongst my friends my family and you're famous amongst the world it's just a high school thing where i still think of me as a little kid in high school i don't know famous no no i'm not famous i'm just a guy i've just i made i did some work i did some i know i got to stop thinking i gotta you know what michael i am fucking famous i am fucking famous i'm a fucking famous actor i've made a lot of fucking money and you should listen to me but the reality is the other side what I was doing for so many years, the bullshit solely, you know, like, Hey, yeah, look at me. I'm at a premiere. I'm not fucking look at me. I'm,

I'm always happy. This is me. And everybody's like, Oh my God, I want his life. I'm like, you know what? It's not working for me. I'm going to be more real. Guess what? I'm kind of fucked up too. And that to me, least on myself and if everybody hates it at least i'm like going hey this is me buddy this is me fuck come on world yeah this is what you're getting you're sick as your secrets you heard that phrase you're as sick as your secrets i like that yeah and there's we hold some deep secrets you have secrets i got secrets you would never tell right yeah no i've i've i've exercised so many of them by these public conversations and at one point i was like oh i got to be buttoned up now i'm a professional and this

that and the other and then there's at some point like this this podcast and going on many other podcasts has created a transparency that has created incredible freedom yeah so no secrets with my wife right none and then no, and then, no. And then, but I've also, we dated since we were 16. So geez, man. Yeah. How about it? That's amazing. And how old are you now? 46. You're my age. When's your birthday? Yeah. November 10. You're a Scorpio. Yeah. And you, I'm a cancer. We, I think we'd get together. I think, you know, you're a little stubborn, more stubborn than I am. You could be a little tricky, but we could work it out.

Prickly. Talk to your wife. Yeah. Talk to your wife. She does understand things like that, right? Yeah. So do you believe in that stuff, by the way? I don't know.

Have you ever studied that whole horoscope? I haven't studied it. I find it interesting. There's some ancient wisdom. There's some interesting parallels, right? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's a science to it. And maybe I'm butchering something that's been around for 10,000 years.

But I know I think I find it interesting. How's that? It is. It's interesting. Yeah. But I remember having this conversation with my ex and she's like, oh, look at our birthdays. And we're this and this and this and everything's perfect. We'll have a little trouble.

But I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be great. This is going to work according to Gene Smart from, you know, the phoenix.com astrologers association. I don't even know what the hell that was. Yeah, it's good. You're fast. Sorry, Gene Smart. But you know what I mean? I just, you always hope, I mean, you always hope we always search for these profound moments like we talked about earlier that tell us something about ourselves or give us hope that things are going to get better and all these things, but you know, you're not going to get any better unless you apply yourself. Well, so that, but that's back to the first part of this segment of this conversation is the importance of vulnerability it, and we have to exercise it. So I talk about the value you've heard me talk about running to the edge, best in the world in whatever domain,

it does not matter. They have the skill and the aptitude to run to the razor. Best in the world, in whatever domain, it does not matter. They have the skill and the aptitude to run to the razor's edge, right? Of capacity. And what happens at that moment is that, or those moments, is that we're not skilled. When we're at the edge, we're not skilled. We're exposed in many ways, but we're figuring things out in those moments. And that's the razor's edge. But there's a physical razor's edge, there's a technical razor's edge, and there's an emotional razor's edge. Every one of us alive right now can run to the emotional edge on a day-to-day basis and when you do that and you build that capacity the you create more space to play i want to play more flat out i want to so to do that i got to get to the edge be really

freaking uncomfortable be vulnerable is what the edge emotionally is about. And what that means is that when I say something that is honest and true, it might not be accepted or it might be used against me later. Forget about it. Right. Cause if it's used against me later and I have all this ability to play, it ain't going to be useful. Right. Right. Like if I'm going to say something to you about that's true and I'm vulnerable about it, but, but I'm building my capacity to handle and do difficult things and be poised in uncomfortable situations later. And you come around a year later and you're like, hey, and you use it against me. It's just not as powerful because I've been training for a whole freaking year, 10 years, 20 years, whatever, to be able to be playful.

And I'll never forget, I had this really amazing conversation with the Dalai Lama. Let me strike that. It was 25 of us in a room. And so I felt like it was a one-on-one conversation because I mean, there's people when you're around them and they understand things and wisdom is evident. He could, I could have been in a room with 25,000 people and probably felt like I matter what is it what is it that you feel in that room what he had yeah knowing and compassion and caring and insight and it just he got the bigger picture and wasn't bogged down by the little stuff but does it make you feel does it give you more I guess it would get does it give you hope or do you find like wow I could never be there.

I can never, does it almost, some people would be like, oh my God, this is too much for me. I could never be this good. I can never be this understanding and knowing. Well, he actually did something relatively subtle is that he, there was no distance between the man on stage and the humans in the, in the group. Like he made himself so available that it was so approachable. That's what part of mastery, I think, looks like. Mastery of self is that he is not different, but he understands things deeply. You too can understand things. We all can do it.

Just got to put in some work. And it was just flat out rad. So he was able to play, maybe four hours, three hours, hours we were together he played with every emotion on stage in front of all of us he almost cried it was there for him probably could and effortlessly right effort bang and then to humor and the laughter and to compassion and he was like he laughed a lot he was startled a couple by some questions. Like it was everything but full command because he's been there. It was incredible. It's just, you think of the training that,

that. Yeah. So he said something, something, someone asked him about like, or what do you think about Americans killing Osama bin Laden and celebrating? He says, I feel sorry for the people that don't understand that we need both sides of

humanity to understand what is good it's like snarky snarky like tommy well like oh my god this guy's brilliant it was it was pretty good yeah so anyways um all right back to you no i this is it this is good i like this i like listening to you. No, this is good. I like this. I like listening to you. You know things. I like listening to you as well. All right, well, I'll tell you things you don't know. Really?

Anything. Okay. What do you want to know? Don't ask me the Osama. No, no, no. The moment in time that you, and I really want you to take your inventory, right? If you can. The moment in time where you have been most vulnerable.

Oh my gosh. I think, you know, what comes to mind are two things. What comes to mind is my grandmother passing. And I'd never felt pain like that before. What's her name? Ruthie. It's on my arm right there. I never experienced pain like that ever. And I didn't know how to deal with it. And you don't even, there's nobody who can coach you on, this is how you're going to feel. This is, they could say, this is what you're, you know, you know, you're going to go through pain and this, but you never understand what that pain is.

She was like my soulmate. She was someone who was, you know, incredibly just open and honest. And I didn't really have that growing up with my mother and my father. There was sort of this, you know, I didn't trust them. I didn't confide in them, but I confided in Ruthie. She was just someone who was always there for me. And she was just this blue collar real down the earth. Fuck you. You know? And when she passed, I remember my emotions. I couldn't, I couldn't control them. I couldn't control my sadness. I couldn't, it was almost like you don't, don't care someone it's it's like

you know you don't want to cry i remember watching a movie with a girl on a date and i was you know i was affected by the movie and it was a little emotional and i just remember putting my hand up to my right eye covering you know like blinders you know so she couldn't see me to the right and just going, my eyes were just welling up. I didn't want her to see me cry. And with this, there was no blind or there was no, this is like, I can't even control this. This isn't to me. I was so vulnerable and, and just, and it was my family. They're not, they're not as close. And we were, I remember being at the funeral home and I remember

people that I've never seen my older brother cry tough macho guy cars working as a mechanic never and I remember I looked at him for the first time and he locked eyes across the room and we just like came together as like out of the movie, just boom, grabbed each other and just started crying. And I'd never, we'd never seen each other cry. And there was just really raw, painful emotion, like stomach hurting emotion. And I remember just that whole time just, and I learned a lot from it. It was like, wow, when you love someone that much and loss and how significant that is and how vulnerable I was. And I just was so sensitive to everything. And it was, you know, and everybody experiences that at different ages. Have you, have you experienced that? I have. And you probably experienced what I had. It's it's, there's

nothing like it. There's nothing like pain. And I feel like also not to bring this relationship, but like, I feel like relationships can be their loss. Well, that's what it's about. You lost the opportunity to say or feel something with them again. Yeah. And so there's, it's complicated, but, and I was more vulnerable with this last woman, I think, than I've ever been with a woman. I think that, you know, just opening up so much, like I wasn't afraid to go, am I telling her I love her too much? I didn't care. I love you. I really fucking love you. I just want to hang out and just do nothing with you. I could see us like, I didn't care. I was so like, I don't know. It's, it's a, it's a good feeling. So, okay. I want to not disrespect that last piece because I want to

come back to it, but when you, when you thinking about with your grandmother, the vulnerability was that you were publicly displaying emotion. Was that the vulnerability? Okay. And then was you realize that you're, you're, you're surrounded by human beings and those people who love you and are there, they'll be there for you. And so just allowing yourself to just let go and just cry and feel and emote to me when you have, it didn't matter. It was going to happen, but it was nice to know that there are people there that are going to help you. So men have a unique challenge with emotions, you know, and I don't want to get into a too difficult of a gender conversation here, but men are, if there's four primary emotions,

there's seven, there's 172. Like I want to just make this super simple, right? The research is kind of all over the map right now with, with emotions. But, um, so let's say there's four primary anger, sadness, scared, and joy. Like those three or those four men, how much on the scale of one to 10, can we do of happiness? How much can we do? One to 10 happiness. Yeah. 10. No ten no why not there's words for people that are too happy men that are too happy we got words for them that's not very becoming no i i would say how about it how about a seven yeah yeah seven calibrate good uh anger one to ten how much can we do we or or me? We men. Yeah. Men in general. In general. Yeah.

Shit. I mean, let's say seven again. Yeah. Otherwise you get crazy. I think, but I think we're allowed socially where I should calibrate better socially. We're allowed to do a little bit more than happiness. You know, like we can rage. Yeah. We can rage a little bit higher. Cause we're men. We could, we feel like we could do that. Which is unfortunate. Not right. Right. But they're like, okay. All right.

So let's go sevens on both. I think the anger we can do a little bit more. Okay. I think we can do like eight. You know, like, you know, he's frustrated. I know where this is going now. You know where this is going? Fear.

How much can we do? How much fear can we show? I mean, fear. You could be as scared. How much can you show? How much can you show how much can you show fear very little little yeah yeah you can't show fear oh that's true because what i was telling you about before this is how we started the conversation right that you like you can't you gotta have it covered up you gotta cover it i'm sort of confusing fear with what we can show

to what we really are feeling. No, I'm saying socially. Right. Right. We also, men and women, men and women learn emotions in very different ways. Yeah. And we're behind. Right.

Because socially we can do a little bit, we can do more anger than happiness. So fear too. Too. Right. You can't show it. Can't show sadness. How much sadness can we show and be accepted? Well, probably one or two. Right. Right. So now we've muted. We're 17 years old and we've muted two of the four basic emotions.

And all of a sudden we have some real stuff we got to deal with. But we haven't exercised two of at all yeah so how about it how are we supposed to do something here and then how are we supposed to really be an evolved caring compassionate human and then we amplify sport put sport on top of it you'll be tough what does that mean scared no no sad no you'll be tough use your anger in other words but you know there's something weird that, but when you see a player and something happens and he cries, it's magical and it's beautiful. So why can't we embrace that, that moment? Somehow that's the time that it's permitted, right? Oh, I get it. He's so happy. This makes sense.

But it's the celebratory cry, Right. It's a celebratory cry. It's awful what we're doing, you know, and, but, but, but that's changing conversations like what you just shared about, like how you just, right. But can we cry more often? Can we be sad more often? Can we talk about fear more often? And can we not just talk about it, but be about it? Like say to people, you know what, what you're saying here, this is kind of, this is not

kind of, this is freaking me out. Like I'm really afraid to fill in the blanks. Now doing that in an alpha competitive environment, you got to pick your spots. You do. You got to pick your spots. Yeah. I'm going to magic mountain for my birthday. I'm bringing, I bring every year.

I bring all my friends and we hit the olive garden and yeah, they give us free food. It's pretty amazing. I love the olive garden breadsticks. Oh my but uh someone just looks we're switching gears because i don't know why you want to switch gears but we're switching gears someone just told me that every time he's around you you have like 25 30 people like you love to be around people that's true but i like also like with my girlfriend i like being just hang out with her i can hang out with her and every once in a while i could have like a lot of people. I like have barbecues, like the people around me, people enjoying themselves. I want people to have fun. So I like to have, so I take 22 of my friends

to six flags, but you're right. We all sit there and we're kind of alphas and we're like, Oh yeah, we're going to hit T2. We're going to hit that roller coaster. Who's on it for the third time? And there's the one guy, Morty in the back going, Oh guys done i'm done i'm like you're a pussy you know we're dudes you know it's like come on you're gonna throw up on this fucking ride or you're fucking out of the group and i think you're right it's sad it's sad like morty should be able to say guys i don't think i could do it's like morty we're with you we understand you're cool it's okay it does not work you're the smart one it doesn't work that way does it and this is the same it's the same in locker rooms right but it's kind of fun it is kind of fun to harass your friends or your friends yeah right you know sully didn't want to come to do i harassed like sully you're big you're strong but you're mostly i don't know it is unbelievable like so the the

gender differences and we need to celebrate the differences there's real differences i agree with you there are real differences celebrate the differences you know no one should be treated i don't think that will ever change in what way i don't think that all of a sudden men are allowed to show their fear and men like women want men to show their fear as much as it is politically we want to be connected that's what being connected is different than being like you know uh you know they don't want to see men crying all the time they don't want to see like i get emotional but you know pick your moments okay so let's play it out why not cry when it's sad what what's happening that you say that women don't want to see someone cry when they're sad? I think the idea is like women want to see men who are strong men who are, uh, you know, have their shit together and crying is perceived as weakness.

If it's too much, like if I have a cry every once at once every four or five months, it's like, Oh, are you okay, sweet? But if I'm crying every week, she's like, Oh my gosh. It's right. And I don't think that's going to go away i think that's like people don't want to be around someone who cries all the time do you think that's like baked in our dna that there's some sort of that our physicality is different men and women there's a height difference there's a muscularity difference i i don't think it's a protector thing no because look i'll be honest with you i i cry at the price is fucking

right. You know that show The Price is Right? When someone wins? When someone wins. What about when someone loses it all? I don't care as much. Isn't that funny? I don't give a fuck. They couldn't fucking beat Plinko? Why would you cry when someone wins?

Why is that okay for us? Because I'm like, oh my god, the underdog. That's me, by the way. By the Why is that? Okay. Oh my God. The underdog. That's me. By the way, that is the way that's me. You too. I cry. Listen,

when I make teams, they always say Rosenbaum. Why do you, when you always pick teams? Cause I organized softball and all, I organized all these things. Why do you always pick the team? That's probably going to lose.

I'm like, because I want the underdog. I'd rather lose and try. Or if we win, how did we do that that's a miracle I've always been that guy and it pisses all my friends off who are on my team and and I always root for the underdog everything I've written everything I've I always write about it's me back in high school it's like the guy I want that guy to make it I want him to grow I want

him to succeed I want him to succeed i want him to win i want so when i see someone on price is right and you know and they just they're sweet and they have some kindness and they're just happy to be there and they and they got a break and they got a break and they win it just i could fucking cry for a good 10 minutes of the price is fucking right mike i see it on jeopardy my son and i love to watch Jeopardy at night. My wife, I don't know. But they look like they have it together. Jeopardy is weird. Oh, not Jeopardy.

Is Jeopardy wearing ties? You're like, man, they're probably rich. I'm not crying for them. No, we watch it. But there's the other. Wheel of Fortune. Wheel of Fortune. The two that my son loves.

He's nine. And when they get it right and they let go, there's a trigger. If they have it all buttoned up and they give give you a little smile, like cool, 35 grand. Great. I don't feel for them. Right. But when they let go and they're shaking and they're on, you know, on the edge, that's where it's like, yes. Oh man.

There's nothing like it. That's, you know, I, that's how I always feel. I feel. And it's funny because this is sort of on that tangent, but, um, you know, when people are always crying, like, you know, your mom, or she's always complaining, always the victim, always crying, always upset about something. It doesn't really affect me. I become numb to it. But when my grandma cries, which I never see, it hurts me so much. And there's like something, it's the same parallel in a way, because it's like the boy who cried wolf in a little bit. If someone's always crying,

if they're always doing this, it's like, okay, okay, okay. You become numb to it. You don't, you don't, you don't, it's noise. Yeah. But when you don't see it often, like my grandmother's never asked me for a dime. My other grandmother, Blanche never asked me for a dime. My mother, on the other hand, she's always asking for money every fucking day. So it's like, oh my God, my grandmother ever needed money. I would do whatever I could to help her. If I didn't have money, I'd find it. I'd be just that. I love you. You never asked me for anything. You love me unconditionally. When someone loves you unconditionally, when you know that it's, that's friendship, that's, that's, uh, it's, it's just such a great feeling.

Like I have friends, I have a friend, Tom, who I've known for 32 years, best friend. I told you early on, I, all my friends I've known mostly between eight to 25, 30 years, 32 years, all of them. Like my close friends, I know them and I don't keep new. I don't like always invite, you know, in Hollywood, especially it's like, Oh, this is them and i don't keep new i don't like always invite you know in hollywood especially it's like oh this is ralph he's on this new show oh come on be friends you're on tv you're my friend fuck off ralph you know wreck it ralph over here so what sorry ralph sorry ralph but you know it's like i like to hang around those same people that just, I trust. And I just, my friend, Tom, back to Tom, I go, Hey, you don't. He's like, fine. How's the business? Yeah, it's fine. It's good. He doesn't, he doesn't,

doesn't complain. And I had to get it out of him. He's like, Oh, we're just dealing with some shit. It's not a big deal. What is going on, Tom? And I finally got out of him. He goes, we just, you know, we're like, we need, you know, we're going to try and get a loan from the bank for like 15 grand. And then we're going to do whatever. And then we're going to be able to do this. And I'm like, I'm going to give you $15,000, Tom. You're my best friend in the world. He goes, no, you're not. You're not giving me a fucking dime. I go, dude, you're my best friend. I love you. You were my agent pretty much in college. You got me to go to college. You were popular in high school. I was a loser. You said roommate with me. I was your roommate. You told people I was funny. You, you pretty much made my career. You can live in my house if you want.

I'm giving you 15,000 and it took everything for him to finally accept it. And about two months later, I got a $15,000 check back with interest because that's who Tom is. And that's who a real friend is. Someone who doesn't want to take your money, who does, who looks out for you, who, who wants you to succeed, but unconditionally. And I think that's very hard, especially in this day and age in the entertainment industry to find someone. And that's why people, I don't hang out with a lot of celebrities, not to say they're not like that, but I am drawn to underdogs. My friend who works in marketing for the homeless, uh, you know, who works nine to five. Most of my friends work nine to five. I don't have a lot of celebrity

friends and those that I do are really grounded, good people, you know, um, as grounded as they can be. But you know, I just, I don't know what it is, but I've always been, and I have celebrity friends. Do you have a chip on your shoulder? I don't, I don't know exactly know what you mean. Well, I know what that means. I don't get that from you. That's why I asked. What do you mean? So a chip on your shoulder, like I'm going to prove it to the world. I'm going to prove it to somebody like, you know what? You're not coming over and knocking that chip over because I'm going to get this job. I'm going to do i'm gonna do this that and the other like i don't get that from you you know what it's so funny i've never been asked that and i think that i i don't now and if there was a chip

on my shoulder which there probably was that's sort of gone away i feel like now i'm breaking those barriers down where i'm not i'm sort of happy for people but i'm very vocal about things like you know that i probably shouldn't be but but like, I'm like, don't make another fucking star Wars movie. You're ruining all of these fucking movies. I just like, I'm like, you know, shut up. What if they hire, they're not casting me in star Wars, right? They're not going to do it. And if they do, I'll apologize. But what I'm saying is I kind of say what's on my mind, but you know, I, I root for people's success. I root for the underdogs. I want to hear those success stories. And, you know, I used to be like, why did he get the role?

And I don't do that anymore. I'm like, good for him. If it's a good show, I don't give a shit. If he's great in the show, he's great. God bless him. And he's working. It's such a hard business. It's so hard in this life.

You should just try to be happy for people. And, you know, I think we go through stages where you're like, fuck that guy. What about when he's a hack? What? What about if if he is a hack and he looks a lot like you he's six feet good looking tall strong strapping smart it's not his fault it's not his fault but he's a hack he's a hack and he got the gig i you know i i'd only root against someone if they were just if i knew they were not a good person. Let's say he's not a good person. Yeah.

Then I have a problem with that. Yeah. But I can't do anything about it. Okay. Right. I can't do anything about that. How much of your time do you focus on things that are in your control and not in your control? Cause of the old saying, right?

It's almost trite control. What's in your control. It's funny you say that. I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm learning. I, i i you know what we all are um okay hold on i think the first thing i think of is if someone breaks up with you or if someone doesn't want to be with you or if someone has an opinion of you that's you're not in control of that that's right you can't try to change them and say no no i'm so good to you i give this to you i'm this to you i can't talk you into that i don't have control over how you feel And if you're not going to feel that I can't

change your mind. So you know what? You got to let control go. And I do that. Sometimes it takes a minute. Sometimes it's like, well, don't you realize how good I'm trying to help here? I'm trying to, wow, you're not. And if they don't see that, let it fucking go. Is that sort of what you're asking? Yeah. Well, I think conceptually it's really easy to know that there's only a handful of things that we get to control in life and masters of craft will say, yeah, yeah, yeah. My job is to master those things. I'm not just trying to control them. I'm trying to master those things that are in my control that I have the capacity to control my thoughts, my actions, my behaviors, my attitude, my effort. That's it. Right. Can't control emotions, by the way. And anyone that wants to talk to me about

that, I'd love to talk to you. You can't control emotions. What you're saying, Michael, is if you can't control emotions and if you have hypothetically, let's say something wrong, you have, let's say, uh, schizophrenia or you have, you can't control that. so you probably have to do something about it well okay schizophrenia is not an emotion it's not an emotion it's a disorder disordered way of thinking but it's part of that your chemistry and genetic makeup yes but what i'm saying is that okay so thoughts and emotions are i'm in the school that thoughts proceed for the most part emotions okay for the most part okay they are bang bang and there are times that emotions trigger thoughts okay but i'm i'm in the camp

that thoughts uh precede emotions then emotions and body sensations they they are they hang together okay and there are people in the field that would say no no no that's it's too it's not that simple you're right it's not that simple but's also, let's also dumb it down for us to really kind of get our arms around to say, well, if I can't control my emotions, cause it's like the elephant rider and the elephant elephants are the emotions, the elephant rider of thoughts. And once they're, once the elephant's running too raw, too powerful to control it, but we can harness it. And if the thoughts are the rider of the elephant, let's be really skilled at the thoughts. Let's at least acknowledge that thoughts do impact emotions. So if, and we can

control our thoughts, we can master them potentially. Let's make sure that we're world class at it. Why not? So you can't control your thoughts as you can. You can control thoughts, not emotions and emotions. That's what I meant. Emotions. Yeah. So something happens, you're, if you're affected by it, you're going to feel that anyway. And how you harness it, how you sort of like, Oh, how could I learn to just, instead of being so emotional. To use it, to harness it and use it towards what your purpose, right? So now we're snapping in our, our moment to moment experience in life is the filter of thoughts and emotions into our larger purpose, sometimes a smaller purpose. But once emotions are, if you're not skilled with emotions, it's a little bit like a dragon, right? It's this multi-pronged weapon. It's got a tail,

it can breathe fire, it's got claws. They're incredibly dangerous, but at the same time, incredible protectors. That's kind of one of the purposes or the dual purposes of, of dragons. If we lock away the dragon, we open up the cage, the iron gates, and we put the dragon in there and say, stop it. Don't exercise. Don't breathe fire anymore. You're a little too dangerous. The world's not ready for you. What happens is that dragon forgets how to do its thing. And then what do we do when we need that dragon to come out and protect us? The snorting fire, breathing big animal. We quickly try to open up the cage and get the lock undone and flip open the iron gate and say, dragon, come out. Shit, that dragon doesn't know what to do. So either it comes out blowing fire or no fire.

Right? So that's what we do with emotions blowing fire like big emotions they feel uncontrollable but what about the middle toggle what about just blowing enough heat that sends a message that we feel it that we're connected we're authentic we have to exercise our dragon do you can you control your emotions no at all no like it can you harness them yeah i'm better are better. Are you better at it? Are you still sometimes slip and go, I didn't control it. And sometimes I know what I want to say to loved ones and I hold back because I know I'm going to feel when I say it and I'll, I'll use, um, your craft of, I'll say a joke or I'll look away or, you know, I'll, I'll fill up space. I'm much better at it probably then because of my

training and my interest in it than 90% of my friends. But the people that are like really skilled at it, I can't get around them enough when they hold space and presence and the freedom to explore the depths of conversations. Forget about it. Wow. i think that's something i need to work on i think it's uh i think you know a part of this being you know bottling things up i feel things i have emotions and i say okay okay let's get your mind off that let's forget about that and it gets kind of like stuck there we gotta exercise the dragon gotta exercise the dragon gotta exercise like hey you know what man watch something even watch a sad movie and let get some shit out cry but then do it with somebody cry with somebody i don't know watch the movie with somebody see if you can do it there so do it by yourself yes i can

okay then do it with somebody and then do it with somebody you normally wouldn't do it with you know like that's how you train you train in a sports training in a controlled environment calm environment low stress and then we progressively move up into high stakes environments yeah you know what's funny is i was just thinking of obviously emotions not being able to control them i was in cabo but harness them i want to make sure that that's yes right well that's our job but sometimes like it's it's i mean harnessing them is one thing but sometimes i remember my friend denineen, she, uh, there was, uh, in Cabo, the ocean with the waves were coming in the storm coming or something. And it was just like horse, this

little horse tied to a pole and he's just there, but these waves are kind of getting far. I'm like, Hey, those waves are really coming in. And all of a sudden one kind of like was coming into the horse and I'm like, this is gonna, she took off like Deneen. She went out to have the video of it. She went out and she was unleashing the horse and this wave came in and crashed and it hit them, but they stood up and they ran and I just jumped down and I ran out there and you know, she got away and I tried, I tried to help her and we got to a safe area and we walked back and I lost, she wasn't even crying, clearing the tube. That's what we call clearing the tube. I lost my shit. I just started crying in front of everybody,

all my friends, because I felt like it was such, it was so beautiful that she risked her life for this animal. And I had no control over my emotions. And that was one point where I'm like, glad I felt so it brings tears to my eyes right now thinking of her doing that some humane act and so what are you doing right now to stop those tears from flowing uh i'm on a podcast right now sully is looking at me i am not crying right now yeah but what no i i'm not asking too but what are you doing like Like, how are you doing that? How are you holding back? I almost stopped. I had a vision. I saw it. And then I stopped. I closed the door. Yes. That's okay. Yes. I can't tell you like, that's exactly how it works. I closed the you could have. Yeah. Is that right? I could, I probably could have cried. Yeah. But you would have needed to see it coming a little bit. Oh yeah course yeah right but and you talked about it so it makes it easier but so i um i watch breathing patterns a lot i watch uh dilation of eyes i watch

skin flush i want all of that stuff as part of training and then you can hear tonal voice changes you can see that i get all that stuff is all super predictors of things but i want to know how you are maintaining your ability to not have the emotion. So this is what I hear you say. If I would have paid one or two more beats, if I would have more time connected to the image. I don't allow myself to get lost in the storyline. I don't allow myself to get, unless I really want to, I don't find it necessary at certain moments where I'm like, I don't need to cry right now. Maybe if I was more emotional, maybe if it just happened, it would be harder to kind of close that. Well, you're okay. So we go back to like minute one

of the conversation. You're just like, I know how to button it up. So that's a skill that you've developed. I know how to pretend I'm confident, but that's what, but that's what I'm just wanting to learn from you right now. How did you do that? The confident thing? The confident? I would rather. Or the crying thing? No, the not crying thing.

The not crying thing I just talked about. The not feeling of emotions. Yeah, the not feeling of emotion. I saw her on the beach. I had this vision and I saw this girl run after the horse. And I saw her get the horse and I felt myself running towards her. All in this instant while I'm telling the story. And I got there and I remember seeing my friends and as the emotions coming, I just go back to you now. I focus on you. I'm now looking at you. I, again, I just did it.

I remember looking at my friend's faces in that, that instant and it was just about to happen. I was like, I could remember some crying and then boom, again, just now I look at you and I got, I was present. I was present with you. And I, and I, I didn't need to finish that storyline in my head. Because if you would have, I probably would have cried. You would have gone further into the story. Yeah. And then it would have, it would have gone on a little bit. And then I, you know, some things that happened afterwards and, and yeah, the whole story I could remember. I'm that's, I'm a, you know, I'm a decent storyteller and I I'm very, things are very vivid. Like that moment. How do you tell great stories? What do you do? Cause you, you, I mean, not all my stories are great. I hope you've edited some of them. No, the great ones. Yeah. Nothing's getting edited.

You don't edit. No. Now how do I, what, how do you tell great stories? What are the mechanics to telling great stories? Experience, life, living, being present. And, and I think a lot of those moments, they're so profound that they're easy to tell. So if you could cut away the fat and just tell the, you know, there's three parts to a story, right? The beginning, the middle and the end. It's very simple. The beginning is we saw this horse, you know, the waves are crashing. It's getting closer. The wave hits, Deneen runs over. That's the middle of the story. She rescues it. I run over and then I start to, you know, and it's like, those are exciting. We see something happen. What's going to happen? The calm before the storm, it happens. And what happens after? And if you can bring that in, I think a lot of people

tell their stories are too long, get to it, get to the point. But also if things are very vivid for me and I can create character and I can create, create a presence. And like, I always tell the story about when my, I always look, I'm an actor. I add things to stories. Like I remember this across the street from me, this guy, Anthony Pellegrino. He's this big guy, musclehead Italian guy. And he knocked on my door. It was like Christmas break. And my dad were at my grandmother's house.

And I answer the door. And Anthony's got two kids in headlocks. And he's like, hey, Michael. I go, yeah, Anthony? He's like, I just found these two fuckwads jumping on your car. What do you want me to do with them? I on your car. What do you want me to do with them? I go, what? What do you want me to do?

You want to beat the shit out of them? I go, dad. My dad comes downstairs. What's the problem? I go, these stay marked. These two fucking jack monkeys fucking just were jumping on your kid's shitty car. So I go, why don't we go look at the car? See if there's any work.

See if there's any problems. See if there's any damage. We went out there. He's just dragging these fucking two mutants around. And there was nothing wrong. So I go, hey, you know what? There's nothing here. So I guess let him go.

And he's like, all right, you two fuckheads, come by here again. I'm going to stick my finger up your ass. Maybe he didn't say that. So they and then it was over but then it wasn't over because my grandmother out of the blue with a giant fucking branch comes over and smacks these kids in the back of that you pieces of shit coming to my neighborhood i'll fucking kill you and we got to grab my grandmother ruthie and like hold her down and like that's the story I remember. And it's like, these are funny moments that are real that I kind of, I blow up a little to just make them more interesting, but they're not like those aren't, that's a real story.

Yeah. I got many stories. I got my uncle, my, my aunt Francis who, oh my God, that's a good one. So do you, you don't, you don't have more stories than people, but somehow you embed them and relive them in super entertaining ways. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree that like when I tell a story for the most part, like my friends and people, even when I, when I speak in front of, they want to hear the story. Cause if I, and if I really get into it, I'm not trying to be funny, but it just comes to me and it's just fun. It's like I'm reliving it almost. How can I get better at storytelling? I think you're great.

Yeah. So I have some stories, but how can I be better at them? I think if you look at the story and you really love that story and what made it so impactful for you and the story you want to tell. If you could embellish, if you could just bring out that story in a way that you could articulate to people how you envision it, that's going to be the best story you could tell. Okay. So I've got this other part of me that says, no, like the authentic real experience is always going to be right. And you're saying, yeah, you know,

add some color, you know, make it. Well, look, I can make that story boring. It's like, oh yeah, this Italian guy lived across the street and forget the Pellegrinos, forget his accent and go, yeah, he had these two kids. He was like, Hey, these kids were jumping on your car. Do you want me to do anything to him? I'm like, dad, and they come out and there's nothing wrong. My grandma hit him with a branch. I'm like, oh like oh that was funny but you see what i did was i took you back to that moment where you could almost see my grandmother back in that moment yeah i was in that moment that's and i think that's why i loved acting because if i could if they if the writing's good you could you could really think about what you're saying i was watching you is that you would dart you would spend a little bit

of time on me but then you'd move up your eyes would move up into the right yeah up into the right a little bit and is that where you're seeing it yeah and yes and when you see it is it in color is it moving is it stills is it like it's it's it's video it's it's all video is it in color or black and white well i'm colorblind so i don't really think of color i mean i could see some color but i can't differentiate a lot of code but i see like i just see that story i see my grandma's house i see the tree i see the car in front of the house the red trussell and i see anthony with these gold chains and i see these two fucking nimwads and uh you know with the headlocks and i could see my dad up on the couch up up the stairs and he comes down. I could, I see,

I could tell, I could go on about the story for 10 more minutes. Do you see it in first person? Like you're, you're looking as if it was in your eyes or are you watching from? I'm watching from someone else's eyes. So you can, you can see you? I could see me. So you're watching from like the ceiling perspective? No, I'm watching sort of like, uh, almost like a movie. Like I'm like a two shot on, onony pellegrino and these two assholes and then i cut to me like looking out and i turned my head and then we're at a wide shot looking over my shoulder my dad up on the couch then he comes down and he sees everything and then we go out to the car there's a wide i see it like a movie do you use imagery to get better to improve your craft or skill or preparation yeah i use uh you know i think they

call it sense memory it was like you know in college and I was learning like Stanislavski and all this shit, you know, it's, uh, you know, whatever, I always say, whatever, whatever you can do to get in the moment, tell a real story and say, you know, say lines that, you know, sound like a real person saying them. I think, um, you know, it was easy for me, like in Smallville and I played Lex Luthor, I had a lot of dark shit that, you know, he had a lot of family things. So I would think about certain things to get into character. I would absolutely, before a take, say, how did this make you feel? How did this? And you know, it's funny as other actors on the set would ask me sometimes, I remember I directed an episode and this girl had to cry. And she goes, Hey, Michael, can you remember that story you

told me about your grandmother when she passed away? And was, you were in the car and I go, yeah, she goes, can you tell me that story? I just, I just, it will help me get in the moment. So I just started telling her the story about how sweet my grandmother was. And, and it's a, see, I went there in the car, I could see myself in my Dodge Durango and I could see me on speakerphone with my grandmother because i had a dream that she died and she knew it so why why are you holding back now and i'm not trying to prime you or pump you because it's i i think it's unnecessary for me to sort of uh something it's like a block that just goes hey is it because the podcast or because i think it's

just unnecessary where i don't need to cry. Yeah. But. But you felt that you could. It's an interesting mix. Like it's available and there for you. Yeah. Cause I could hear her voice on the phone.

It's like, you know, I, I could hear her say, you know, I remember I, this always gets me, but she said, uh. Hold on. Where is it in your body right now in my head behind your eyes it's kind of in the back it's like kind of a numb feeling what about your jaw and throat uh kind of in my nose right here in my eyes yeah and kind of like in the back and kind of like a little tingling in the arms a little bit maybe a little bit in the heart do you like it or not like it um it's real i do like it i do like it it makes me feel like uh

you know seriously i'm tearing up a little bit it's good no but um yeah it's a it's it's a real feeling i feel present are you afraid of it no i'm not afraid of it i'm really not afraid of it i'm just um uh i don't know. What's the cost of letting it go and what's the cost of keeping it in? It's kind of dissipating now. Yeah. Well, as we talk, that is what happens. You know, there's really no cost.

There's no repercussions other than it's honest and it's real. And if anything, it's like it's people sort of hopefully go wow that was profound and maybe that will help them so that's what i that's a good thing the only there's really no bad thing it's just an honest human reaction so if i did there's really no negative i logically there's no negative that could come out of it and there shouldn't be a negative you know but, uh, but well, fear of other people's opinions. I think we talked about that. And that's something I want to get over. And that's something that I really, I am making adjustments to stop that too. So let's go,

let's use a dial one to 10, 10 is high FOPO fear of people's opinions, right? High FOPO, low FOPO is like, zero right like I really don't care you don't care right no no I'm probably like a two so I've I've done like at one time I was a 10 yeah it was a 10 on on tilt and then but I still like I'm not I the way I think about is I when I get dressed in the morning I'm dressing for comfort in the way but I about it is I, when I get dressed in the morning, I'm dressing for comfort in the way, but I also have this thing like, yeah, that'll look good, but that's not a big driver, but it's still there. I have that. I have mostly where my, you know, my assistant Jess is like, are you really wearing sweatpants again? And a t-shirt that's usually what I wear. In fact,

I changed the shirt in the car. It was like, Oh, you know, I'll wear a nice shirt. Maybe they'll take a picture and I won't be such a slob today. I think my self image is like, I'm just sort of, I like to be comfortable. I like to be relaxed and I usually don't really care, but I do care. We all care.

Like I want to look good. If I go on a date, I didn't say zero. Right. And I have that. So, but I also have a lot of things where, so are you at a two on the FOPO scale?

Am I at a two? Where are you? I'm way up higher than that. Where are you? I think think i care too much and i think it's not a 10 it's not an eight it's not you know but it's probably a six or seven it's probably certainly like even you know when i go to hockey it's like oh i gotta be funny guy they're all expecting funny guy i gotta they all gotta like me here we go and then i kind of go into me and i forget about that but there are definitely moments throughout the day it It's like, oh, my God, you know, you think this is going to happen. They're going to say something about me.

And I try to stop that. No one cares about that. So I am getting better about that and my perception and obviously doing the podcast, my podcast and being open. And I'm obviously not caring as much. If I cared that much, I wouldn't want people to know all these horrible, you know, these not horrible, but things that happened in my life. And so I think I'm getting better. I'm trying to be more honest. I'm trying to be present and I'm trying not to worry about what everyone else thinks.

How do you do that in the moment when you've got something, an old psychology, an old script that's saying, keep it in, be the cool kid, whatever, like make sure that you're okay in that moment when you have the choice to go be you or be something that will be liked. How do you make the choice to be you? You know, what comes to mind is, uh, I was doing a scene. This happened many times probably. But you know, the whole crew's there and I'm about to do something

and it was a new crew, new movie, new whatever. And it was like the first take and I did it and I felt like I was nervous. I didn't let anybody know. I just looked like I was fucking up a little bit or I was like, I'm like, you know, that's not honest. And it was fear. I was like, all'm like, you know, that's not honest. And I was, it was fear. I was like, all these people are watching.

There's the camera guy. There's the sound guy. And what is the producer? Is he talking about me? Am I something wrong with me? I don't know. And the director, he's like looking around. What's going on?

They're all thinking of me. And then I thought, you're crazy. Shut the fuck up. They all have their jobs to do, and you know what? You have a job to do, and they hired you to do that job because you're fucking good, and I go in my corner, and I punch my fist in my hand, not like aggressively like I'm an angry person, but just like, you got this. You're fucking good. It's like that Tim Roth moment in Reservoir Dogs where he's like, you're fucking great You're fucking good. It's like that Tim Roth moment in Reservoir Dogs where he's like, you're fucking great. They fucking don't know anything. You're fucking

money or whatever he's saying, you know, and it's like in that mirror. Cause he's got to believe they got to believe he's an undercover cop. They can't know he's an undercover cop. And it's like that moment where I'm like, you're here for a reason. So you're going to either shit your pants and you're going to fall flat and you're going to look an idiot and you're going to embarrass yourself and you're never going to work again. And all those are fantasy. They're bullshit. They're not going to happen.

They've never happened. And you're going to go and do your fucking work. And so when you can just make that decision and all those thoughts are like within seconds, it's like, do your fucking job. You're here for a reason. Fucking go, you know, and what's really crazy, Mike, and hopefully you'll allow me to one day get therapy and I'll pay you lots of money if you need it. And I have it. But, um, when I'm playing softball or when I'm playing hockey, when I get up to bat, the captain of the softball team, like it's a men's league team, but they're good players.

He said to me, he said, look, this is just a regular guy who works a nine to five job, but he's the captain of the team. He said something to me that just was, I don't know. I felt cool, good about it. I felt confident about it. I felt like, wow, why can't I do that? He said, you're the only guy on the team that is excited to be up with the bases loaded with two outs, with two strikes. You are, you want to be up with the bases loaded with two outs with two strikes you are you want to be that guy you I could see it in your eyes I could see the confidence when you get up to bat that's why you're clean up that's why you're number four because I know you were out there to hit a fucking home run and you were ready for it and I go wow he's he's right I am I remember all the time I could get me up I got BJ you got to get on base

dude I'm gonna fucking go get on base for me don't be the last out let me get up get on base dude I have that competitive edge like so why can't I have that all the time why can't I be like that in everything I do and that's something I'm questioning because I'm like, wow, if I'm that confident and want to be up there with all, there's some guys that get up there and they pop up or strike out or whatever. And I'm like, God, let me be up. Let me be up right now. I've always been that guy when it comes to sports, when it comes to, you know, hockey, I want to get on the ice. Give me the chance. Give me the puck. Let me shoot it. Whatever. I want to be that guy, whether I make the goal or not. So what are you driven from now?

What are you driven by and hungry for? Two separate questions. What are you driven by? I'm driven by just like what drives me is something that I really love doing that I'm, that, that I'm passionate about that is fun. That makes me think, Oh my God, I can't wait to do this. That's what drives me. I want to do something that's, but also impactful, something that makes me feel like. And so by saying that, I do think the podcast has sort of become that it has, like, I think there is purpose. I think me doing a podcast and helping people was, is doing something good in the world. And it's,

I actually like doing it. I had to cancel our lunch because I got a big guest on the show coming up that I have to, he's, he only could do it before he leaves the country. So I was like, I, and I'm excited about him. Like, I, you know, I, I'm not excited about canceling lunch on, you know, I wanted to fucking do lunch, but I, lunch but you know like that i didn't think i'd be excited about it it was something that came out of the like the it wasn't rad yeah that's right it's right but i but look michael i want like i hope it becomes big i hope it becomes you know when i and i keep doing it but i'm like is that enough i play music i do these things but, I definitely humanitarian as a humanitarian, I want to do more for my fellow man.

I do want to, like, I feel that when I do that, I feel the happiest. You know, when I go to the Ronald McDonald house to, to, you know, talk with kids and help kids and spend the day, I leave the room and I go to the bathroom and I cry my fucking face off because I care so much and I want to do more. And I'm like, well, you should be doing more if that's how you feel. And I think that we get caught up in our lives. We get so busy, all of us, but we, you're never too busy to help someone else out ever. Bro, I'd love spending time with you. And I know that you do need to go. And, but no, I wasn't. Oh, no, no, no. We're rolling. Dude. Yeah, no. Oh yeah. I got to go.

I really do have to go. You kept me longer. I just looked. This was, this're rolling. Dude. Yeah, no. Oh yeah. I got to go. I really do have to go. I know you kept me longer. I just looked. This was, this was awesome. And you almost made me cry. I teared up and I, I love you for it. And I'm glad I wish I actually would have cried because I feel comfortable now. Uh, so maybe next time I'll cry next time. But what you offered on the mechanics of it is way more important than the emotion coming

out. Like I just told you what I think. Yeah, that's right. So I don't know. Well, and you also gave a masterclass just now on self-talk. The little corner moment that you have when you punch your fist, all of that is trainable. And it's kind of one of the foundation pillars of performance psychology.

Know what thoughts work for you. Have those on a regular basis so that eventually you are living in a state where it becomes a trait like an optimal state of mind becomes an optimal trait you know a way of living and then it just gets easier it's part of your routine yeah skill to state to trait i'm gonna you have to email me that yeah good all right where do we find you where do we find your podcast where do we find you yeah where's all the good stuff here? On Instagram. I'm the Michael Rosenbaum on Twitter. Did you have to put the,

I had to put the, and on Twitter they couldn't fit my last name. So it's Michael Rosenbaum. No, yes. On Twitter. That's perfect. And my podcast is inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum free on iTunes.

Subscribe to have a listen. Got some great guests coming up and you're a great guest and you're going to, you're, you're coming up and this was a treat, man. We got to do something together. We're going to do something. That's why I wanted to have this lunch. Cause I want to talk to you. Cause I just, there's my craziness and my creativity and your like knowledge and all that. We could do some fun. So what happens if we're both crazy and I'm just playing the part that, well, we'll talk about that. Listen, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, I want to encourage

everyone that's listening punch over to his podcast check him on instagram social all that good stuff uh thank you for your time and we'll see each other soon this is genius thank you All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify.

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