Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Microsoft CFO Amy Hood on Purpose and Progression

Episode Date: February 1, 2017

Amy Hood is currently serving as the Chief Financial Officer at Microsoft Corporation — whose corporate mission is: “Empower every person and organization on the planet to achieve more.�� This conversation is so good. It’s about so much more than her professional accolades and she’s got them: Harvard MBA, undergraduate degree from Duke in economics, being listed at the #44 spot on the Forbes World’s 100 Most Powerful Women list. This conversation is about her commitment to a full life experience, in all of her roles as a woman — as a mom, a wife, a sister, a daughter, a global citizen — and of course as the CFO of one the most influential technology companies in the world, Microsoft. If you’ve ever thought, I’m not sure I can do “that” — whatever “that” is in your life — because you’re too far down the tracks, or you’re not sure how to manage something new — or how to make difficult decisions about work/life engagement — or how to not become consumed with chasing outcomes (while at the same time having world-class outcomes as a by product) — or how to help others grow — I think you’re going to love this conversation. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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whose corporate mission, I think you're going to love this, is to empower every person and organization on the planet to achieve more. All right. Now this conversation, it's just good. It felt really good to be in this conversation. And it's about so much more than Amy's professional accolades. And she's got them. Harvard MBA, undergraduate degree from Duke in economics, being listed at the number 44 spot on the Forbes World's 100 Most Powerful Women list. How cool is that? This conversation is about her commitment to a full life experience in all of her roles as a woman, as a mom, as a wife, as a sister, a daughter, a global citizen, and of course

as the CFO of one of the most influential technology companies in the world, Microsoft. And if you've ever thought, I'm not sure I can do that, whatever that is in your life, because you're too far down the tracks or you're not sure how to manage something new in your life or how to make even difficult decisions about work-life engagement or how not to become consumed with chasing outcomes while at the same time having world-class outcomes as a byproduct. I think you're going to love this conversation. It's that rich. So let's jump right into this conversation with Amy Hood. Amy. Hello. Okay. Thank you for spending the time to come here and to have this conversation.

You know, the thing that I want to understand from you is one, where you came from in your life history and your, you know, all of that good stuff to give us context. But really what I want to understand is how you understand how you've become the CFO of Microsoft and that journey. So there's, there's at least two or three ways that I can think about how that happens, but we all have unique journeys and I'd love to learn this. And then on top of that is how you govern yourself to be able to have such a public and a influential role globally from a very large corporation. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So do you have kids? I do. Okay. And then did you have siblings? I did. Okay. How many

siblings? One. She's a year younger and she's a pediatrician. Oh, okay. Yeah. So kids are important for both of you guys? Actually, it's so interesting. You asked that. She's not married and doesn't have kids. No. She's made that choice. But her career is around it. Yeah.

But really her life's pursuit has been about really the socioeconomic disparity that exists in the world and her role in fixing it in her mind. And she does, right, is to work in different communities and give back, which is, and does she live up here in Seattle? She doesn't, she's at home, uh, in Nashville, Tennessee. So that's where you grew up. Um, yeah, actually I grew up, uh, the first 12 years of my life in a city called Moorhead, Kentucky, very small. It's big claim to fame is, um, Phil Sims went to college there at Moorhead, Kentucky. Very small. It's big claim to fame is Phil Sims went to college there at Moorhead State University. I'm not sure after that we've had much of a big claim to fame, but that was bigot. So then football was part of... Always. It was. Always, always a part of our... When you grow up in the South, which I did, basketball was maybe also a big love when you grow up in the state of Kentucky.

But ever since we moved to Nashville when I was 12, between SEC football and cheering for whatever local team until we had the Titans, it was – Okay. So sport was part of your family. Was that mom influence or dad influence from you guys? Both. We played various sports. My sister was super talented swimmer, state champion. Yeah.

Yeah. Incredibly talented. And she was younger. Younger. By a year and a half. Yes. What was it like to have a super talented younger sister? Well, it's interesting.

I think she would say that she was often in the shadow because I was older and my skills, I think, were different, whether it was academic at school or when I said like, when I was on the math team, I get it not quite as cool, but I was sort of down with that. But like, I had a different persona inside school, right? Okay. I was sort of down with that. But like, I had a different persona inside school, right? Okay. So in, okay. I was sort of the academic one. And she, by the way, who was second in her class, so like just a stack rank of life. I mean, she's an incredibly bright person. And so for her, I think swimming was the thing that was different, you know, for her.

Okay. And then how did, how does, so I'm thinking about the gender bias that we have for, for boys and girls that at a young age that boys are better at math and girls are like, that's an old thought, right? And then what, did you grow up kind of in the middle of changing that thought or like where, where were you? What was your only, I was often the only girl in some of my math classes okay so there wasn't something unique about your small town no definitely not it was more about my parenting okay let's hear it yeah you know my dad is a doctor

he actually is a medical doctor and interestingly he went back to school when I was older. I mean like in 12 to get a second doctor's degree because he just likes to – he's an interesting person. He's a learner. Was that around much? No. Yeah. He was this real – I think about this a lot. He was not.

Yeah. And I want to share something with you real quick. I would love to keep – that's kind of what this is, this conversation, the finding mastery, is that I have the yearning to want to learn more. Like there's so much that I know I don't understand. And so formally, and this is what I would call informally, but I have a crave to do formal education as well. And then I think, what am I not doing if I'm- Doing that. Yeah. What was that like for you as a 12-year-old who liked academics? Right. Your dad was back in the system. It was interesting because I think he also traveled to do it. He would drive about 60 miles because we were in such a small town, the University of Kentucky in Lexington, to go do it and come back. I think what it did is if you ask me like my childhood memories,

sure. Um, you know, really he was around at like most of our big swim meets and things like that. But day to day, it was always my mother, um, who was there constantly. She went back to work actually. Um, was that when he had done that, was that for passion or was that for finances? Mostly for finances. Yeah. Like, okay, so we're going to incur this other expense you're going to be working less or whatever that's right and then so and so mom went back to teach nursing teach nursing okay so she was educated as well yes okay so education was a big part of the family um was achievement important or was it the pursuit? Pursuit. It was. It was. It was interesting because my mother's family, who we're very close to, she grew up in an even smaller town called Hallsville, Kentucky.

And my grandfather, who I never knew, unfortunately, on my mother's side, was a superintendent. He died young, had a heart attack. And was the superintendent of schools. All my aunts and uncles were extended family, were all teachers. And it was more the pursuit and the importance of education to being a complete person. How did they give you that message? Was it watching? It was so funny. I still remember watching was because we talked a lot about the importance of teachers and the role they played.

Constant questioning. I remember every car ride, right? Tell me about the car rides. Oh, my goodness. Car rides. You kind of wish you'd go to sleep. But instead it was like, do you know what happened here? This is the battle of X or this is the – we were –

So long car rides or – We went to grandma. We went to our parent. We didn't travel much. We didn't – even though my father was a doctor, when we were in Kentucky, he did a lot of work. I still remember us getting paid in like chickens and – it was a different environment. Wait, wait, wait. Your dad got paid in chickens?

Yes, yes. Seriously. It was a small town. I mean it was a different environment. Wait, wait, wait. Your dad got paid in chickens? Yes, yes. Seriously. It was a small town. I mean, it was a small town. So I'm going to do a procedure and you're going to give me a couple chickens. Yes, yes. You know, it's what people could pay, right? And it was, I think, more symbolic that they were thankful, right?

I think when you're a kid, you probably didn't get it as much. But you're like, oh, I think this is a gesture of giving what I can for what I got done. But when you're 12, you're like, what is – we don't need another dog. I got a lot of dogs. We have so many dogs. What did mom think when a dog and a couple of chickens came home? Mom was used to – mom grew up on a farm. So I think that's partially why I felt like we were pretty – knew what was – we laughed actually.

We had taken in straight dogs. I mean it's just the story of who we were, but my, my mother's film was all about education. My father was an only child. Uh, he was adopted actually. And so, um, we didn't travel as much to see them, but we, we traveled to my mother's mother often. Um, and she's super influential in my life, but we, on the car rides up and back, it was like a constant history lesson, right? Of, or why does this work? Or, you know, how many letters can you spell? How many, I mean, it was, we laugh. It was sort of a, my sister and I would be like, Oh man, not again. We're going on another car ride.

Another opportunity to try to fall asleep. What were the car rides like to sport or to school or back? It's very funny. You know, this was before you had phones. I know people like, you know, do phones all the time these days. Same. Like, how was school? What did you learn?

It was more about what did you learn? You know, we were very high achieving kids, it was – I still remember in high school, my mother, when she got the report card, would always ask the following question. Are you proud of the work you did? Okay. So that was a question you remember. Yes. Being consistent. Yes.

Are you proud of it? Now, that can come off a couple ways. Like that can come off with a bite. Yes. Are you proud of it? Now that, that can come off a couple of ways. Like that can come off with a bite. Yeah. Like, okay, you got a B plus or you got an A minus or an A. Are you proud with it? Like, did you work hard? Yeah. And they can also be like really loving.

Yes. It was a lot. Well, it depended on occasion. I think she would make making a point, uh, which I'd already known, you know, there's some classes I was more difficult. Um, I didn't enjoy them. I was sort of making a point that I thought the teacher wasn't that great. I always had an opinion. Yeah, on that stuff. And so my mother still laughs. So was your early model when you didn't do well to blame others?

No. It was always a deep sense of guilt usually that I hadn't done work. Oh, yeah. But I hadn't done it. I hadn't worked hard enough. Okay. So the family message was work. It was always work. If you worked hard, right, you would see results of that work. Okay. Would they say, did you, okay, they, would you have a sense that the model, if you work hard, anything was possible? Or was it, if you work hard, you'll get the results? No. What did they say? How did they tag?

It was a possibility thing. It's very interesting. I still remember when I was in Kentucky, we went to a – at the school, at the university, they had a teacher's college kind of concept. And we went there for school. That was our elementary school. So we were always in a testing, right? In some new way of learning, new model of learning, experimental, and, um, that was, they gave IQ test and still to this day, I have no idea what the answer to that question is. They decided not to share it with you. My mother said, here's what

I know about how you did. You're plenty smart to do anything you want to do in your life. Cool. So whatever the answer is, whether it's zero or 200, does it really matter? Because if I tell you it's high, then you're going to say, I fear you'll feel entitled. And if I tell you it's low, I fear you'll have an excuse. So it's super interesting. And I still laugh. I was like, mother, you still have not told me the answer. She's like, I told you you're plenty smart to do what you need to do. Yeah. And so it was, it gave you space and also a little bit of, I don't know, responsibility. Yes. Oh, that's a word that connects for you. Yes. So tell me more about that. I think, you know, my parents have always said you have a responsibility for lots of things, right?

We had chores around the house that we were responsible for. We had various animals that we would adopt and bring home we were responsible for. We were responsible for our own learning. You know, a lot of those things. I never, I was never one of those kids that had your parent, you know, come in and ask if they could, grade could be better. Or, I mean, like, that's just not the parenting philosophy my parents worked under. So if there was a philosophy, what was it? I think it was generally self-determination, you know, that you, you can own your own future. And if you want to be a teacher, terrific. You want to be a veterinarian, terrific, but make sure you do it with everything you have

and whatever that is. So super powerful message, right? That any, anything is possible. I struggle with that sometimes because I think about, am I setting people up? Yeah. Right. And however, I've heard it so many times in these conversations that there was a, there's like at least two very clear themes that are emerging. Anything's possible. And son, you're not gonna be anything right. Like you've been given nothing and you're likely going to be just like me. Like there's another side to that. And then they push through in a different way.

So you had the more aspirational support, but you've need to work to execute against it. Yeah. I think because from my parents never wanted to believe that we were handed anything because we had, you know, it's so interesting. The more I learn about the broader community of existence in the world, right? One should assume I had every benefit known to man, right? Like I, I was white. I had two educated parents. They valued education. They made plenty of money for us to live in a safe and secure home. I never worried about anything, right? At a very base level. And it was never about money either, which is super interesting. It was about what you contribute. Like, you know, I grew up with a family of doctors and nurses. It was about, are you helping? Are you making the world different? What is your unique ability to do that?

And that message was clear growing up as well? Yes. Okay. So something about your special, something about work hard, something about there's full of possibilities, but you have to work hard to express those possibilities. And then a unique thing that when you didn't get the result or the achievement or the grade, whatever it was, that you would feel guilty that you didn't get the results or the achievement or the grade, whatever it was, that you would feel guilty that you didn't work hard enough.

Or that I didn't, you know, often it wasn't just not working hard. It was like, was I participating right there in my own growth? You know, like, listen, you own this. So if you're not going to participate, what do you mean you own this? It was you're not going to participate – What do you mean you own this? It was interesting. It was sort of like – when I say self-determination, I really do – my parents, I laugh.

It's almost like my mother was Quaker. She was a very deep sense of self-determination. Like you own your decisions. You own the direction your life will take. Our job is to give you a solid foundation. And, but you have to want to be better, to be interesting, to be educated, to contribute back to. And it was okay. Amazing. And was this a relentless drumbeat of a same idea that is allowing you now, XX years later, to say, this is how I remember my childhood? Or was it one or two really strong moments that jarred you? No, it's pretty consistent.

No, my parents were very consistent. As I said, dad wasn't around. He was working most of the time, but my mother was very consistent. I mean, it was sort of, she was always there. I was always supported. But I mean, I don't think she ever did my homework. I mean, like, you know, the stories you hear now, like parents sitting down, it was like, yeah, I mean, here, do you have homework? Yes. Is it done? No. Okay. You have a choice, but I assume you'll get it done or not. I still remember her hearing in high school. High school? I had to do push-ups in math and my mother volunteered at the school in the front desk. She would answer phones and things and knew everybody, of course. So mom was involved in school? Yeah, she would do things like that.

Not in the classroom way, but she was so present. When I, not in the helicopter world of parenting, but in the, I'm present. I'm part of your life. And then when you would have conversations with her, she was in that conversation. Yes. Always. She still is. How do you do at that with in life being present? Um, better now. Um, you know, I do think it's very interesting. I've even said we've made choices to like change our routines on the weekends, my husband and I and the girls, because otherwise you're in the same routine, the work routine, which is very different from the wait a second. I'm here to enjoy us, build us in addition to all the things partially that we both remember. My husband was brought up relatively similarly in that regard. And how does that work?

Like how do you transition from leader in the global workforce to – Yes, to I'm homemaking. Yeah, how do you do that? Breakfast and same things everybody else does. It's so interesting. It may be because we do many of the same things that we both remember as kids our parents did that made life special in our minds. Like my mother always made a special birthday cakes. It's a very good example. You know, whether it was a gumball machine or a

bunny rabbit with licorice whiskers, I still remember very vividly. I still do that for the girls, right? So whether it's I'm up late trying to figure out how to stabilize a rocket ship, you know, to cover an icing and it's like three in the morning and you're thinking to yourself, the CFO of Microsoft is now blue because her fingers and you show up at work the next day and people are like, what's wrong? I was like, oh, it's just blue icing. It's just everywhere. You just have to find there's grounding things I think for us that are important and whether it's we love sports so we still believe that's a good foundation to understanding your role

in the world. So you guys use sports for, you're not trying to create professional athletes. You're using it for something else. No, use sports for – you're not trying to create professional athletes. You're using it for something. No. You're using it for something else. No, use it for something else. Use it to understand. I think also to have pride in yourself at any level, you know, in your abilities. It's also – my older daughter is a bit of a perfectionist, not unlike her mother was at that age. Oh, you said was.

Yes. What does that mean? Oh, still am but less hard on myself about it. Okay. So then you still have the tendency to look for something to be perfect. Yes. But then you don't cut yourself as much when it's not. Right.

You just say, which has been a choice, right? There's a choice you make, a very active one, which is I can make every decision in the hope it'll work out perfectly and fail 99% of the time. Or I can choose what I call progressive iteration, which is you deeply say, I'm going to make choices every day. Some of them are going to take me forward. Some of them won't. But if I keep at it and I progressively iterate on my ideas and take learning and try to get better, I'm in the pursuit of something. But it's not perfection, right? What is it for you? I think it's actually seeing progress. I do think progress actually is a very different

driver for me than the destination. You know, you're the first. So I've had, I don't know, 60, I don't know where we are in a number of conversations. Progression is one of the strongest words for me. You're the first person to mention it. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. So progression, I'm on the edge of my seat literally wanting to hear how you talk.

I'll share how I think about it, but I want to hear how you think about progression. So for me, it's so interesting you asked that because I could apply it in almost every facet of what I work on, right? Whether it's the team dynamic I have at work, whether it's my relationships at home, whether it's, you know, a study of something to get better, right? But I do think it's like there is a progression that you can get as you move forward in life and you can have more context, you can make better decisions. I can, it's a, it's a funny way I think of describing a journey. Yeah. A journey that's, I feel like there's an edge to that word. There, there is. Do you, do you, do you identify with having an edge or like, how do you, how do you think about yourself in that way? Yeah, no.

I would consider myself – I would both be described as and consider myself as having an edge. Yeah, because I experience you as being really intense. Yeah. Yeah. Does that sound right to you? Yeah. And then so when you put that, you're like, yes. In whatever moment that is, right?

Intense. Yeah. And so those of us who are intense, which I fall into that category squarely, I think we have to work on rounding edges. Correct. Right. Okay. And then because – well, for lots of reasons. We'll go into that later. Yes.

But progression is a really edgy way to think about growth. So growth can be – I think the same thing, but there's a different tone to progression. And then I learned it in action sports. So whether it's action sports, most people call them extreme sports. It's all about progression. It's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The first person to get the super duper, whatever, whatever trick or skill, it's the next one. It's the next one. It's the 540, the 720. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. We do a lot of sports, but like, um, are your family members in action sports? No, no, but no, you hear it. Yeah. I hear it. But also it's about, I think, I don't know if you're a sports person, you start to appreciate what each

sport demands. And I think also when you have jobs like I have or my husband's had at various points, you look for ways to sort of have a tangible way to explain to people like what your life is like. And you use sport often as a way to do it. Okay. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. All right. So, okay, let's kind of put a pin in this a minute because I've got a thought about, I would love to unpack this idea of you being an intense, smart woman because I don't know what that means for me, right? Okay. So intense, smart woman, because that's, I don't know what that means for me, right? Okay. So

intense, smart woman that is at a senior or the senior team on a global corporation. Okay. So what has been the cost and what has been the asset of those three? Am I missing anything else of those three? Those are kind of the three right that is that has an orientation towards a little bit of perfection but really it's about progression yes okay so what is that unique constellation of traits and characteristics what's the the upside and downside for that for you um upside is just a deep appreciation of the sphere of influence I have, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When did, when did that happen? A year and a half ago. Oh my gosh. So you were in on this path of intense, smart progression. Think of it very, think about having a very internal focus of those things,

which I think is how you sort of say, well, how do I get to a job, a more senior job, a progression? And it becomes very internal, right? Meaning it's more about you and making good decisions to help advance. Whatever thing it is, the company, the entity, the project. That's right. Okay. And then a year and a half ago, what happened?

I think it's interesting. A couple things. Number one, I started to think a lot, we started talking about inclusion, right? Diversity, but inclusion more so. At the company level. At the company level. I started thinking a lot about it because we always talked about it. And I think most people do, as a metric construct, right? Like what percentage of women do you have? What percentage of African-American employees do you have?

And how do you change that? And one of the things Satya talks about is having a purpose. Like what is your purpose? This is the CEO of Microsoft. Yeah, the CEO. So what is your purpose here? Like do you find meaning in your work? And it was interesting. I've always found meaning, but it was in sort of the output, right? Like, wait, the stock price is higher, the earnings are better, the project's cheaper, like whatever

the metric way of measuring that was. That's that intensity and progression focus. Right? It was measured and it was actually very clear. Do you like those black and white? Yes. And then I'll tell you why not at some level. Yeah. Let's stay with you first because I don't want to derail. Yeah. Because the concept is a little bit of you change that pivot. We think about, okay, what's my purpose? I can have a very narrow purpose. A narrow purpose is, which will sound broad, but to help make Microsoft the most successful place it can be. Right?

I represent shareholders. I'm the CFO. How did you come to that clarity? Yeah. Well, because I think we always talk about there's a – Fred Kaufman does a bunch of bunch of research on he's actually economist who writes some sort of leadership stuff. But it's a very interesting thing because you'd say, well, what I could have said is build the best finance org or build the best treasury team. But you have to remember, there's really only one actual goal. If you're on a sports team, it's to win.

Now, here you might say, well, the defense wants to give up the least number of points, but really it's to win. And I've thought a lot about it. Like, is it to have each sub component optimized or to actually decide how you play a role, maybe even a sub-optimized role conceptually, to make the team the best. That's an interesting thought. Right. And so I spent a lot of time, but what it meant to me was I started thinking about, well, I could have that goal. That's a big goal and I'm excited about it. Or I could say, wait a second. What if I said that is my goal, but I have a second one?

What if I could be a great example, not just inside Microsoft, but in a broader way, about being authentic and being successful in that authenticness, being a woman and being senior and successful? What if I said, you know what, I'm going to spend a ton of time on belonging, like creating a sense of belonging on the team, not just achievement, not just skills, but on relatedness, connect connectivity and said, wow, I have, I don't know, 3,500 people that I'm responsible for their belonging, a sense of belonging to make something better. And so that way you start to think, wait a second, my purpose is bigger or could be,

and how lucky am I? Instead of what a burden that is, it's like, well, how lucky am I? How did you do that? How did you go from, oh my gosh, it's so big to, wow, this is even better? Because honestly, I thought about like, you know, people always say like, what's your legacy going to be? I never really thought about it ever. I was like, well, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if she did a good job. And I was like, oh no, that's not my legacy. That's my legacy. What if, what if I built a team that allows each person to feel a sense of belonging so they can do their very best work and that that becomes what we're known for? Can you imagine the talent you can create, the people who would want to come? You'd absolutely achieve your goal where

we would help us win, but you would achieve it in a very different way of leadership. So if you, I mean, if that makes sense, oh my goodness, it's almost, I spent a lot of time, I spent a lot of time on it. Okay. So it's almost at the center of what the Seattle Seahawks and coach Carol has created as a single point focus. And that single point focus is to help people in this organization to be their very best so they can help others be their very best, whether it's home or otherwise. And if we can collectively do that and just set the track towards winning, right? Just set the track towards, um, uh, progression and becoming better every day by competing every day in and out to be your very best that if we get a bunch of those people together, the outcome is going to take care of itself. We just need to set the direction of what that, what it will look like

and feel like along the way. And that, it sounds like that you're doing. It's where we are in that journey. And so it's, I think it's been for me, um, you know, when you think about smart or edgy, I mean, let's just say edgy. It's a nice word. You know, when I was, when, when you're, when you're growing up, they just call you bitchy. But like, just to point it out, but I'm pretty adamant about this now. I do a lot of talking internally about it. I said, listen,

whatever you're about to write in somebody's review, please ask yourself, are you writing the same thing for the woman as you are for the man? Most research would tell you women also have the same bias. It woman as you are for the man. Most research would tell you women also have the same bias. It's not a male worldview. It's actually women and men comment more on women's

style and they comment far more on men's output. And so- So that's really good brainwashing. Yeah. Like it's deep. It's deep. It's not just one gender. It's deeply deep. It's sort of, you know, this is an expectation, a societal expectation. And so we spend a lot of time. When I say I talk about belonging, you know, it's that would I have talked about that when I first got my job? Absolutely not. Right? I would have said, no, no, no, no, no.

I just got to make sure earnings are good and assets are where they need to be. And, you know, it would have been very skills-based, to use your language. I would have judged others only on their skills. Because remember, my worldview impacts 3,000 people, if not more than that, very directly. So I went from saying, wait, everything about this place is skills-based, to wait, whoa, whoa, uh-uh. I'm actually deeply biased in my view of skills. So when I can see my own sort of narrowness, it's very eye-opening, right? And so then you sort of like you, I think when you realize how your bias works in life, you then decide,

first of all, one, I'm going to work really hard to train myself out of it. Number two, I'm going to find my purpose. And I think that's very different than that narrow purpose. Yeah. Mom and dad gave you one. I'm going to work hard. And then how did you need to be hit by a two by four or did you, was there some sort of moment where you said, I'm done, I'm done with doing it the old way, this, the internally focused, the narrow driven, right? It's never one two by four. I think actually what it is, is you have a number of people you meet and just talk to in your team, not maybe your direct reports, but you gotta go down, you gotta go down to see what's going on. And what you discover was just how what you thought was going on is never what people feel.

I started to say, wait, what am I missing? Like we're delivering all these metrics. Success on paper. Yeah. And it doesn't diminish it per se. I'm very proud of it. But you'd say, wait, there's a lot of people here who do not feel that they can be themselves when they show up at work. And I thought – the more I thought about that, I'd say, wait, I'm myself at work now.

I didn't used to be, right? This is the moment I want to get to. I hear you saying there's no one moment. at work now. I didn't used to be. Right. That's, this is the moment I want to get to. That's the, and I hear you saying there's no one moment. No, it's a, it's a, it's a bit of a journey, but I would also say, frankly, getting married and having kids and feeling deeply accepted outside of work. Okay. There it is. Okay. So you have to ask yourself like at work, what was I trying to prove? Work was everything I had for – not literally. I had a family and a massive – I don't do massive groups of friends. I have a very tight group of female friends, super tight.

And I always had them in my camp and always relied on them deeply. But I think somehow finding some stability at home and purpose that was beyond just the work. Because when everything is tied up and whether or not that meeting goes well, the project goes well, it's so constraining, right? For all the effort, I've worked far less, by the way, today than I worked five years ago. Far less. Not because I don't have a lot to do, but because I can get so much done in such a different way. You know? You know, I hear that productivity model, like being really efficient, it strings back to being present and having purpose. Those two things come together.

And when women in the athletic world have children, so there's a little downtime, obviously, right? And when they come back, this isn't like I can't make a broad stroke, but I'm going to try to do my best here, is that what my experience has been when they come back, they're like, listen, let's get down to business. I've got 45 minutes for practice and I'm all in. I've got two hours for practice here and it's going to be the best two hours because I got something really important at home too. Where before I could maybe just kind of slide into intensity and my two-hour practice turned in actually three hours. Or even worse, let's just say how about being intense for all 20 hours you're there? Right? How about taking that same sort of edgy intensity or however long it would be, 16, 18, right? Not per day. Oh, sure. You're working 20 hours a day. There was times. Come on.

For sure. Who's doing that? That's crazy people. Did you do that? Yeah. But then I stopped. But that's a journey of crazy. But it's like the journey of the fearless and the crazy. Why don't you work 20 hours? You have to remember this is like I went to banking as my first job. So like the culture was like the longer you worked, it was like a badge of honor.

Like who can do the most sit-ups? Yeah. You know. I mean I didn't learn anymore. I just like was exhausted and grumpy. Um, which you learned very quickly. It's a good lesson to have learned, right? You're like 22, you can rule the world. You're staying out late in New York city, rolling back to work. You're like, wow, this is a really good lifestyle. Did you have fun? I have some, my best friends in life were made there. None of us still have the job, obviously. I think doing difficult things forges a bond that

you can't... Very different. When you go do those crazy difficult things, that's why people that come back from intense experiences of war or sport that is very challenging, which is not the same, or doing wild things like 20 hours a week and making radical decisions. You then decide like, oh, well, there's something about all of us that's got the same weirdness that thinks this is a good idea. We call it neurotic. Yeah.

And so – and by the way, with funny backgrounds, right? You have like sociology majors from Princeton. I mean it was a motley for a you know, for a banking crew, but, um, wait, hold on. I want to go to a thought for you, which is, I think, tell me if you think that this was close to what happened for you. Cause I'm trying to work this out is that when, when a person wakes up or becomes awoken, is that the right word to their purpose? However, that happens two by four or a journey of conversations and stimulation, maybe it's having children, maybe it's feeling loved by a partner. Many other people, yes.

Yeah. Okay. So however that comes to be, when a person feels as though that they matter and they have some direction in their life with purpose, that all of a sudden that becomes the impetus for saying, I want to do this for others. This is like what it's about. It's very freeing. I always tell people, it's a little bit like if your worldview was living in a fear of failure, which was probably my worldview for a while, right? The pressure of the situation was like, okay, I'm just not going to mess this up. Two, whoa, whoa, whoa. What if I can just sort of put my crazy ideas out there? Some of them are good. Some of them are great. Some of them are awful with that same passion and freedom. My great ideas are a lot better than the ones that I experienced in that sort of

constrained pressure weight of perfection. So I tell people all the time when they ask me like, what career mistake or what career advice do you have? I said, whatever burden of perfection you're currently carrying up and down these halls and telling yourself every day, you have got to find a way to let it go. I said, that was like my favorite theme for a while, that Elsa Frozen movie. It was like, let it go. I was like, no, no. Like, I mean, you have to let it go. You have to be okay getting fired. How did you do that work?

Because, oh, I cut you off there. Yeah, you have to be okay being fired. That sounds different to me than perfectionism. Yeah. Yeah. So that found, to me that let it, yeah. It's having a worldview that you think you're proud of and being able to talk about it. I love how you talk about worldview.

Yeah, I am. Because I talk about that as like a psychological framework, the way that you see the world. And you're calling it a worldview. I think it's the same thing, right? It probably is similar. And so you just stitch together fear of failure and perfectionism. And so be okay with getting fired. If it's for the right reasons.

If they're the right. Okay. Not for not working hard. No, that's a different thing. It's about, listen, if a place is not right for you, like if, if, if you feel like you can't bring your good ideas yourself, the way you approach the world to work, it doesn't mean everybody has the same worldview. The real crime is if you say, I, I only have mine. It's about, wait, here's mine. And I'm trying to understand and appreciate yours. So that together, right? Together, we can do our thing. Now, whatever that thing is. One plus one is far greater than two at that point. Always. Usually it just feels like if you're working on a, the old team worldview I had was like, I really like your worldview as long as it looks like mine. Right. Like as long as you can understand mine, as long as you agree that my worldview is far

superior to your worldview, right. That I think we're all squared away. Um, and what I've come to see is that my worldview is mine. We also talk about a culture. Um, every person has a culture, like every person has their background and what they bring with them. It really shapes how they interact with people, their comfort level, how they view its safety, the safety of their environment at work even. I'll tell you, you know, after the election, you know, I'm sure it was complicated inside these walls. It was complicated inside ours. So I actually had a event that week with our 500 most senior people, and we spent most of the time talking about something called dialoguing across your

differences. People thought they were coming to like learn about accounting. I was like, we may do a little of that. What we're going to spend more of our time on is understanding what culture a person brings with them and determining their sense of belonging and creating a place where people feel comfortable. We did that. And we also talked about really a spectacular speaker, Brene Myers, who really talked about belonging and what it means. What was her name? Brene Myers. Yeah, she's written a couple of books, does a terrific TED Talk for people that want to look on the internet. But she really talks about what does it feel like if you're

African-American and work in China? What does it feel like? And we're global. It's a little bit like, I mean, you all deal with it on a much smaller microcosm, but if people don't feel safe and don't feel comforted, that's how I finally felt. I felt like, you know what? I feel safe here. I feel safe in my environment. I feel safe at home. I feel, I don't mean safe in that I wasn't safe, but safe to be who you are. There was, um, there's an executive I'll keep nameless, uh, very influential that got very clear with her philosophy. Yeah. And I got a, a text and it says, Hey, can I, can I talk for a quick minute? Sure. So we jumped on the phone. She says, I'm really clear. This work is like, I know my philosophy, you know, that's one of the things that we ask folks to do.

So she wrote it down and she's like, that's me. And that's how I see the world now. And she said, I cannot do this in my company. And if you can't, that's, so that's a, it's a really powerful thing. And I think if you don't know it, you can confuse, uh, it can be very demoralizing because what you think is, you know, wait, they're not, they don't hear me or my, I'm not, I'm not saying my idea well enough. I'm not working hard enough, super self-defeating. And so, and that's a spiral we've all, I'm sure been in, but you just can't get there. How do you know so much about the inner experience, the psychology of humans? How, like I'm nodding my head to, I don't know, 95% of what you're

saying. So, and I've spent my whole life trying to understand that. Like how, how do you know so much? What have you done to reveal some of these insights? Um, it's so funny. I think I talk, I try to, I've tried to be a better listener in my life later. And I would say, frankly, for many years, I was very closed person. But I also felt very lonely. Right? That experience of, you know, they talk about leadership is lonely. I was like, but I don't feel lonely anymore. I don't. I mean, it's, I guess it's lonely in some construct, like, but it's not to me. When did that change? You know, probably in the past five years too. You know, the sense of like, you know. You've had a radical five years. Yeah, it has been. I think it's, you know – well, maybe it's been a little longer. Ellie was born in 2009. So maybe part of that is you just – there's some very tangible ones, right? I used to never think about how hard it would be to have meetings at 6 p.m.

Because, I mean, what is anybody doing at 6 p.m.? They didn't have kids. Right. I mean – Yeah, they weren't attending the family. Right. Like what, what could you have to do that isn't this? I'm judging your intensity based on whether you want to join me at six o'clock in my office. Um, I went from that to, I left every day at four o'clock. Okay. Like every day people are like, well, can you meet at four 15? I was like,

absolutely not four o'clock. That's the end of my day. I'll be back on email eight or nine. Is that how you do it? Like after the kids go home? Yeah. Now I stay a little later because my husband now works at home and he's taken over that gig full time, which God help him. I mean, it's exhausting. So, um, so I, I probably get home at six, but consistently, but don't leave till eight, you know? So we have time in the mornings, which is really sort of super fun school chat, you know? You know, and let's say that your, your worldview, so your worldview now is that family is really important, right? And investing in.

However you define it. So what I mean by that is in the, whatever your view of your support, that's how I talk about it. Whatever your view of your support network, family, friends, partners, your animals, often for people I've laughed, it's like I've learned it's their dogs or their support network, whatever it is that gives you the energy, that I talk about as filling up your tank, I always tell people, not all things in life give you energy. Some things take your energy. It can be a physical construct of taking energy. Like in sports, it can take it.

But it's also other things. It can be relationships at work. It can be relationships at home. It can be relationships at work. It can be relationships at home. It can be lots of things. But it's about filling your tank and recognizing where that is. So I spend a lot more time talking about that choice. And when you have the insight and then live that way, I bet it creates an amazing amount of space for people to say, well, if she's going to value the other part of her life too and kick ass while she's at work, then maybe I can do the same. Yes. I get a lot of mails about that, emails people write to me and say, well, you have no

idea what it means that you came and talked about your experience and how you still have, which I think everybody does, whether you're male or female, you know, am I around enough for my kids? Am I involved enough? Like whatever that word is, enough, enough, enough. There's no enough. And that I talk about that and give people space. You know, when I talk about safety or feeling like you belong, it's that can you express the things that give you challenges in being your best. And so if they can express that in a safe way, that judgment won't come if you say, you know, listen, right now I'm taking care of my dad and that's what I got to do. Or I'm taking care of my kids or we got to, whether it's a drug issue, there's lots of issues people

have in their lives. I don't care what you look like. Um, and you got to give them space or you'll lose them. I mean, listen, you want to know what it's about. At some point, I want to build a great team. I want to build a great, I want to win just like this place. I want to win. And so what do you have to do if you're going to win? You have to have the best who want to be their best. So I love that. You know, it's very different though than what I thought, you know, I was like, Oh, now I'm the fancy CFO. I mean, what happens next? People are just going to tell me cool stuff and tell me I'm great. Not exactly.

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you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. There's a thing that I do with senior leaders and other folks as well is I give people when I'm with in front of them, let's say 15 or 1500, it doesn't matter, like an opportunity to go for it and to test themselves under pressure and to test their minds under pressure. And this is the reason I wanted for you and I to have this conversation because you know what I'm going to say. I volunteered. So that's what I'm looking for. Yeah. And so the stage is set for somebody to take a shot. Yeah. And I'll tell you, I can't tell you how, I'll tell you, I can't tell you. Yeah. How many people sit on their hands and they don't go for it? They say they go for it. They say that they want to go for it in life, but when

given the opportunity, they play it safe, play it small. And you didn't in front of your peers and in front of like people that they're supposedly on paper, their opinion of you should matter. And you said, no, no, no, I'm going for it. How did you do that? Cause it's, did you see how rare it was? Yes. It's pretty funny. I, cause I do think if my sense of self is pretty strong. Okay. Let's stop there. How did you do that? How did you build a strong sense of self? There's hundreds of thousand people that are listening to every word that you're saying about like how to build a strong sense of self because you went for it. Yeah. But I didn't just go for it every time. The first time, right. I was saying, it's not like I've always gone for it.

I sat on my hands at various parts of my career, right? And it started by maybe you raise your hand. I tell this to people all the time. I didn't just suddenly become confident and confident in who I am and what I believe and in my own abilities as opposed to envying somebody else. I did it slowly. Like you take one risk. It seems very small and it works out. Then you're like, oh, wait, oh, wait.

Oh my God, nobody laughed out loud at me. Like I raised my hand. I said my inner thought process that normally I would have just said to myself and then supported myself, by the way, right? You know, there's a lot of that. Like I did have a great idea to myself. But confidence is being able to share that over time. So I'd raise my hand once and somebody would say, hey, wait, that's a good idea.

I was like, yeah, it was actually a good idea. Yes. I've told myself that a lot before. I've told myself that a lot, but I've never had actually anybody else validate it. And then you'd have a couple of those. And then you'd – some couple of those and then you'd, you know, some of them aren't great, but then you define, you find out that people's reaction isn't as devastating as you thought. Like they still actually thought you were smart. So the first

couple where you got some positive reinforcement, the interesting part was when the negative came, it wasn't actually that negative. It was like, Hey, you know what? Thanks. That's, I mean, that's not how I see the world, but like thinking about what you said, how about this idea? And you're like, okay, that whole big failure thing didn't really go down the way I told myself. And then you're like, okay, all right. Oh, now I'm really rolling. And mind you, that process takes years of your life to get good at. And I think it took years. How did you know how to build that inner dialogue that would be supportive while being a perfectionist? Very funny, right? To go through that. It's that, um, I will say for all of these

things we talk about, about talking publicly, I am an introvert. I've always been, I work best sort of, I don't mean that and I don't like people. I love people. I love the interaction. So thank you for clarifying that because introvert- Does not mean, doesn't mean what people think it means. What it means is that I take my energy and get my energy from a different place, from a different process. And that's often done best for me in a quiet moment or reflecting. And my best ideas aren't in big meetings often, which can be reflect. People could say, oh, that just means she doesn't have something to say. No, it means that my brain, frankly, this is not my best environment. And so-

Do you front load that and tell people? Yes, I do now. I didn't used to like anything else, right? You'd, you'd fake it a lot. And then you'd, it was part of sort of coming along on that journey. So listen, just so you know, I'm loving this meeting we're having, and I think it's great. I'll have 12 great ideas when I leave. Can I just send them to you in mail or write them down? Or I'm happy to talk about them next time. It's not that I'm not willing to say them to the group. It's just, they don't then. I'm taking things in. My processing time isn't great. It's one of the traps for leaders is that just the extroverts share ideas. Yeah. And so you have to be willing to, we talk about that as an inclusion behavior.

One of the most important inclusion behaviors is ensuring people are heard and people then say, oh, that you mean in a meeting. So what you could, or it's actually literally providing them their hearing. Like I heard you, whether it was in my office, through your mail, through a paper you wrote, through your body language. Actually, I can get better at that. But inclusion is in fact that, so in this conversation you have easy eye contact yeah right and so how have you developed that ease of eye contact with being really intense um because i think when you look at somebody i've now learned it's a tone of respect um how did you learn that i think frankly probably by having people not do it. And I was like, wait, are you hearing me? And then you just say it louder.

And you're like, wait, I think that's not going to work actually, right? You know, like louder doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hearing you. And so I also use a different tactic in my meetings now. I changed my office about two years ago, the same kind of time frame. So I have a desk with a computer, but I also have a table. And so all my meetings are in my office, right? Generally, we sit around the table. We don't use our computers. We listen.

We look at each other. We talk about what we're trying to accomplish together. We give everybody a little space, right? And we may share a screen. So we all have to look at the same thing on the same time frame. like, it's all the same thing, whether it's eye contact, that's respect. It's about people have worked hard to be in that room. And now that appreciation of that, like that's their one moment with me, maybe in three months, what do I want that moment to feel like? Right. And then when you make eye contact, are you looking at both eyes or one eye?

One. Which one do you look at? It's interesting. This side. You look at my left. So you're, so you're looking, it's a bit closer. I think it's about proximity. Okay. And you're, when you're making eye contact, what are you doing? Are you seeing somebody or is it just like, I also bought it with nervousness. You know, you try to gauge people like, are they, are they feeling comfortable that they can talk to me in a way that's about real information, not the programming language?

It's a very tech term, but like the concept of, am I really hearing what you're trying to say? Do you feel like you could tell me the issues? Because remember, at the levels we're working, you, if you're not getting to the thing. Underneath the thing. Underneath the thing. Under me the issues. Because remember, at the levels we're working, if you're not getting to the thing. Underneath the thing. Underneath the thing, underneath the thing, you're not getting anywhere. Okay. So when you're in conversations, so a lot of my friends get agitated with me because we'll have a conversation about whatever. And it's the nuts and bolts of the conversation that I don't remember because they're not important. I'm just

working to try to understand the thing underneath the thing, where they're coming from. And are you looking at that or are you able to hold both? It depends. I have to actually sort of come to a purpose. It's hard for me to do both in the moment, very transparently. It's like people always said, are you a good multitasker? I'm like, nobody's a good multitasker. They just don't know it. Um, right. I mean, just doesn't work. So if I'm trying to understand what the issue beyond the issue is, I can't, I don't try

to hear the math. Remember my job's about memorizing things at some level. I do have a good memory. That's a separate issue. But, um, if I'm doing math, I'm doing math. If I'm doing learning in that way, like what makes you tick? Are you really happy here? Do you feel comfortable that you can do your job that you can't look at a spreadsheet to do together? So did you have this type of eye contact before? No. So this is. I would avoid meetings.

I was like, I told people if I could avoid that moment, right? I could always feel the discomfort in a room. I just. Oh, so you have this intuitive feel thing as well. I think I do. Okay. So it's dangerous to think you have it, but I think I do. It's been validated to some level.

Is that a neurotic thing? Like, oh my gosh, I feel tension. I got to get out of here. Or is it more like, wow, I can I do. It's been validated at some level. Is that a neurotic thing? Like, oh my gosh, I feel tension. I got to get out of here. Or is it more like, wow, I can just feel the vibe. No, feel the thing. You can feel it. You can't react to it in a way that just, it makes it bigger. So I'm usually a person that would say, listen, I can see the anxiety. I would be a very normal start to a meeting for me is that, listen, I can feel the anxiety in this room. And if we're going to make progress, we've got to work through it. So let's all take like a couple breaths.

Let's remind ourselves what we're trying to get done. Let's acknowledge we don't all agree. And let's acknowledge that whatever decision we make, we're all really good at our jobs. So let's like go through that list with yourself. Did you just make that list up or is that a real kind of thing that you do? Cause they're really thoughtful. That's what you do. Yeah. And then. Cause you have to remember, you have to sort of acknowledge then you have to just the tension, the pressure. Microsoft's a press like here there's pressure. There's real pressure, real pressure, man. Like, so you want

to create as much space as you can for people to operate inside of that. And then maybe even change the perception of pressure too. Yes, because how could you even judge if people are good? What do you mean? If I was going to say, if I want to understand, do I have the very best people working on something? You can never know that, I don't think. If you're not attuned to that situation, you can blame it on the very wrong. Your root cause analysis would be absolutely incorrect. If it was only based on how

they operated under stress? Yeah. Absolutely. Because stress reactions are so polarizing often that you, whether it's silence, whether it's volume, whether it's, uh, the fighting instinct. So there's, uh, four well-known responses to stress, right? Fight, flight, freeze, and submission. And we often don't talk about the last two very much. There's also a fifth one that the science hasn't caught up with. I think well enough fight, flight, freeze, submission, and flow. So, yeah. So we've talked about this

a bunch that, you know, uh, risk in risk is one of the triggers for flow state and flow state being the most optimal state of human can be in. And so as a, as a leader, as an influencer of culture and of craft, and maybe of human development, one of the things that you can do is, or I think, no, not one can you, you can do one of the things that you can do is, or I think, no, not one can you, you can do one of the things that's an incredible mark for that person is to understand, understand how stress works in the person across from you and then help toggle it with them. Right? So you can apply more stress. You can bring stress down, you can expand space. And so you can play with particular parts of the brain that are lit up. And it sounds like

what you're doing is you're working to be very present. You're valuing the person across from you. And then you're using yourself as a vehicle to understand what's happening across the room and then creating space and saying, okay. And then you're using something really tactical, like a breath to help people. Yeah. So do you do any type of training around breathing? We've talked about that. I do. But what's interesting is my breathing is frankly not a practice I'm as consistent on. But I was talking about – somebody asked me what I do before my earnings calls the other day.

And I said, oh, it's very interesting. You asked. I. Is that considered a high-pressure stress? High-pressure in the moment. What can go wrong? it's very interesting you ask. Is that considered a high-pressure stress? High pressure in the moment. What can go wrong? There's thousands of people listening. It's going to be on television.

You know, it's just one of those things. And frankly, they asked me, gosh, are you more stressed when it's good news or bad news or either way? I said, frankly, I used to walk outside and then I breathe in my office and I drink lemon water and then I go. And what do you say to yourself during any of those? Or are you doing the one thing that you're doing? I'm doing the thing I'm doing. So you're breathing. Yes.

Or I'm walking or I'm – You're not walking and thinking. No. I try not to. Just walking. So that's mindful walking. Right movement. Right. And so I tell myself that's the way that I get in my flow, what you would call the flow state, right? It's that the clarity of my purpose, what am I trying to give off to the world, right? And I realize that in order for

me to be in that place, right, where I build on others. I hear, I really hear the question. I, I hear our CEOs emotion. I'm able to either tone it down or turn it up and get it to the right place. And we, you can, you can feel us be together on that. So you were, your preparation is to get more present. It is. As opposed to learn more. There you go. Yeah. See what I'm saying? Like that point.

Yep. We're done. Right. I mean, come on now. And so the, the person who understands that they've put in the work gets to say that. Correct. Right. That's what I mean about hard work is the basis of my world. Right.

So I know I've done that. Practices everything. I've done it. Yeah. No, I was giggle, you know, what is it? Um, the separations in the preparation or whatever those things are. Yeah. Right.

But it's all that. It's true no matter what level you're doing. It's preparation. It's hard work. It's thoughtfulness. And by the way, that doesn't mean working late at night, right? We're very consistent on this. We know what we need to do.

We all do our job. I'm not doing somebody else's job. Everybody's doing their job, their role, their unique contribution. And we're ready. Okay. So you're not doing like a mindful practice, but you are like on a consistent, regular basis. But it sounds like when moments you understand the value of being present. I know how to do, I think for me, the recognition of my own stress triggers and then how I then am less good, less productive, less persuasive, whatever the words are. I'm just less. Whatever that is, I'll only be judged if I drop this ball.

I'll only be judged if I – I'm only going to be judged on that mistake. You're like, no, no, no. Actually, I'm good at my job. I'm a confident person. Like you got to do the whole self-talk as crazy as it sounds. Like you're talking to yourself, man. I'm like, people are like, what do you do all day? I was like, well, I talk to myself a lot. Yeah. We become either our worst coaches or best coaches. And I think we all need a coach. And let's start with, it's great when people outside of us will help us and guide us on how to teach ourselves.

And we do become the most consistent coach that we have. And I think for me, if I am not in a healthy sort of – and I sleep. I'm a big sleeper. How many hours? Eight consistently. Do you have to compete to get eight in or – No, not anymore. No, that's just part of the process. My thing. now that's you're better. I'm better. And that means

you think more clearly. It's been about two years of sleep in eight hours. It's a huge difference in my life. That's a huge difference in my life. Um, you know, I, whether, whether it's, you know, for some reason it's, there's a tactile thing for me of like holding a warm cup or it's very relaxing. So like use whatever it is. There's actually some science around that too is that even when you give somebody a warm cup, this is like – Yeah. Have you read the science that when you give somebody a warm cup that there's a sense of warmth in the relationship?

Yeah. It's a gesture and a sense of comfort. I do think there's something about some of those things even for me personally that – it's my own trigger, right? It's a positive trigger to be like, okay. It's all good. Okay. So let's see if we can do this. Um, psychological framework, uh, optimist now, right. Um, and then work on being a vehicle to help you to first, you notice that meaning is kind of what it's about and now you're helping accelerate that insight for others. For others. And you're doing it in the workplace environment from a very intense driven outcome based environment, right? And you're honoring that and loving that. And then coming back to saying,

okay, our purpose together does matter. Does matter. And I can't do it unless I'm living it. That's right. You can't. So you're getting your sleep. They can see it. They can see it. They can see it. They can see it in you.

Like I'm just saying, like if people think you're faking it, it's like they're done. They'll wait long enough to find the moment that you're off. And if you don't, if you present yourself as being the hero or heroine that you're going to find yourself. You never are. So it's just very painful. It's so much easier. It's so much easier. It's so much easier.

Like we're all got the only stuff going on. Okay. Is there one word that describes what you understand the most? No. Gosh, one thing. Gosh, I don't know. Is there one thing I understand the most in my life? As you're doing this, can I interrupt you? Yeah, yeah. What is, what's happening for you? I'm thinking about, I've never considered, that's why I was giggling when we talked about do this.

I feel my, I feel because I'm sort of constantly trying to improve and be better at things, that progression or the iteration that goes with getting better and better. I don't think I had anything to tell you about being masterful. Right? Right. to tell you about being masterful, right? So when you ask me the question, it's perplexing that I would feel like I was exceptionally deep in anything, right? I'm always like, well, I mean, I'm pretty good at people. I'm pretty good at my job.

I'm pretty good at – I'm sort of going down the list. I wouldn't say I'm like masterful at anything because I do feel like – Come on. My journey. No, seriously. What am I really good at? Okay. No, no, no.

Understand the most. Yeah. So I – okay. Let's pull – let's kind of dissect into what was happening. Yes. So when you paused and you kind of giggled and you looked away and you kind of – Yeah, I was thinking. Right.

What was happening inside of you in that moment? Was it like, oh, no, uh-oh? Or was it – No, it was like a real pursuit of the list. I was going down like a list of things. What was happening inside of you in that moment? Was it like, oh, no, uh-oh? Or was it like- No, it was like a real pursuit of the list. I was going down like a list of things. What would it be? Like really what- it's like a very stateful thing. It's like, okay, let's think about that. Even in this environment, which can be intense for a lot of people, you're not overwhelmed by it because you're honoring your thinking process, your feeling thinking process.

I don't have a- that's why I go through the list i was like okay could be maybe so what let's try it another way what word comes to mind right now if i say what's the one word that matters to you purpose yeah okay and then what would be a word that or a phrase that would help get to the center of what you understand most that's different than what i just asked yeah that is different than what you just asked is Yeah. That is different than what you just asked. Is it numbers? Is it systems? Is it people? Is it logic? Logic. There's a system of logic. And you could hear it. I do think of things in their relationship. Like even when I go through and say to people, let's acknowledge, let's respect. Those four steps I just asked you to do. Yes, whatever those are, right?

Because they were very sequential. They're very sequential. And that's why I wanted to know. I am a logical – my way of seeing the world, my worldview is its connectedness, right? So people would say to me, what are you – what's your superpower? I'd say, well, I can see the simplicity and the complex. And I can see the simplicity and the complex. And I can, I can see the art of it, the arc or the art. I can see how things relate, a system. So I call it like a logic system, but it could be a system of like, I, if people present a problem, I'm like, but is that really

the problem? Isn't the, wouldn't the logic say, if you go back three steps, isn't your fundamental disagreement there? Right? And so – I can imagine you 20 years ago. Oh, my God. I can imagine. It's scary to other people. I think actually – and people still get super nervous seeing me.

Yeah. So the importance of – that's why the eye contact – No, it brings it down a notch. Yeah. So people aren't – because mind you, three or – I won't say that. Probably five or seven years ago, I was literally terrifying. I bet. Because I'm – I do recognize I'm quick.

My – Thinking process. It's pretty quick. I take in information quickly and because I am confident, I can get to an outcome where it can be perceived I'm not listening. And so it is super scary. Now, I may have said, well, I already took in all your – whatever you were saying. But that's very different from how you build. Build the relationship between built to the,

built to the outcome. I was cool. I was, I was deeply, deeply only respecting very specific skills. How did you not get frustrated or did you spend a lot of time frustrated? Cause my experience of people that think, think quickly, um,

and the room is not thinking as quickly as that. It's like, come on, Jesus, just fricking like stay awake here where it's not that complicated. So you can go there. Um, you can go there very fast. But I think what, for me, what, what I realized was, um, I was missing a lot in that. Like, was I, was I 80% correct in my logic at 80% is pretty good, but I was missing the art of the last 15 to 20. That's brilliant. I think that's the,

in those nuances. So you can feel very good about yourself, right? You're validating motion of that as well. I'm right a lot, but the actual answer is, are you optimally in the place, which is the real question. Well, so it's a time, it's a time constraint though, because the 80%, 80% of the time is, is like, okay, good. So I've got a hatchet and I'm, you know, but I'm not a surgeon, right? Okay. So there's like a different approach that can be really great if time is the competitor. Now, if the, if, if we, if the, if the competition is the art of the craft and the human experience, then we need a couple of different mallets. You do need a couple of

different, you also need, if you're building something, um, you know, if you, it was, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go Fargo together, I think what, when we were in, like when I was in hatchet mode, we were going fast, but I was the only one going anywhere. And maybe a few others, right. Whose stress mechanism was subservience, you know, servitude kind of construct. You'd be like, oh yeah, I just agree with you. They're like, whew, that's going to save me, save my bacon for a while. If I just say, yes, man, I'm in at least for a year. And I think that that's also a trap for leaders is to have people around them that will say, yes, yes, yes. Oh, that was brilliant. That was so great. And this is one of the things that

great coaches have taught me is they say, no, no, no, tell me, tell me. So I have a unique position and relationship with many coaches where they're saying, please, this is what I want from you. Tell me everything. Because my assistant coaches or my whatever, whatever, I'm not always clear of the motive there. And so we're all trying to get better, but please tell me the truth. It's very hard. Also because there's such a deep survival instinct each of us have that even when you think you're being honest and transparent and open and all those lovely words, you have to understand people still understand they work for you. And that is a survival instinct. Who is the hardest person that you have to be honest with? So interesting. I. Oh, my kids. For sure.

But like. I love that thought. Right. I mean, your kids are very complicated. Yeah. But because you're. Like the honesty level. I see right through it.

Yeah. Yeah. So they're by far the hardest. My wife is Latin. And so we just had a great time last night, the three of us and my son, my wife and I. And we're laughing like hysterically about a story where my eight-year-old son says, Mommy, we don't say those words. Correct. So we were having that. I think my seven-year-old is reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid,

and he uses a lot of words in that that we don't say. She was laughing so hard reading this book. And I'm like, what is so funny? She's like, you never let me say any of these words. And he says them all in the book. And because I'm reading, I get to say all of it. Do you remember the first time that you knew that you could curse or that you could break rules or that you could do something that was counterculture to either your family? Yeah. Do you remember? I don't remember the distinct attribute. I remember in middle school or high school, there was some staged walkout. I was like – I would protest. I remember – oh, I do remember one distinctly. In elementary school, we had a substitute in like fifth grade who was – by the way, poor woman.

I just had no empathy. But she was explaining if you went east long enough, you were going west. And she had a globe out. And I was like, that's just not how it works. I mean. It's a new orientation each step you take. Yeah. We're still going east.

Yeah, we're still going east. You may be in a different country, but we are still going east. And so, of course, I wouldn't let it go, right? And she's like, well, I'm going to threaten to sign the principal's office. And I was like, let me just be clear. There's no chance I'm giving in on this topic. Do you know what I'm saying? So I get sent to the principal's office.

My mom has to come pick me up. And she's like, do you want to tell me what happened? I said, yeah, she was wrong. And I was like, she's like, okay, well, can we talk a little bit more about that? Yeah. She said, well, there's two approaches you could have taken to that, Amy. I mean, you could have done what you did, which is stage basically a intervention, public, massive show of disrespect for the leader of the room, where you could have

maybe just let your feelings be known, right? Sort of worked through that and come home and we could have talked about it. And she's only going to be there for a day. So I'm not really sure you needed to make her life miserable in that moment. Right. But I, there's moments like that, but it was never, you know, that you got in trouble in a way, right. Other than the coaching moment from parenting. Who tells you in your life now that, that you're wrong? My husband and my kids mostly right home. Or my mother. My mother's still very good at it. Okay. So here's some quick hits. Okay. So where does pressure come from? Pressure. I feel a great burden often that the company, that our employees feel like the

company's doing well, you know, because they put so much effort. So it's externally driven for you. Uh, it's, that's an internal concept, but the external personification of it, meaning, so what I mean by that is the way to explain that I feel an obligation to people to make sure I do my job the best I can is that I say, Oh, I don't want our employees to be disappointed, but it's more of a way to explain probably the pressure that you say, you know, I'm trusted with a big job and responsibility. And I really do feel like every day I want to be great. Is there a particular habit that you anchor to that is a must keep for right now? Well, when I go to work every day in the morning, I literally say to myself on the way every day,

today's a good day for a good day. Every day. Every day I say it. Like it's restart, right? Today's a good day for a good day every day every day i say it like it's restart right today's a good day for a good day yeah today is beautiful right because it's just a restart and then how do you think about mastery like do you have a definition or a way you articulate it or the key characteristics it's so funny i i did think uh and i do think about mastery as being um like progressively i do think of it as a progression. I should say that. You know, mastery is sort of the pursuit and the progression of being terrific at a thing. And finding purpose. I think mastery also to me, when I think of the word master or mastery, it's also very purposeful.

Right? It's not like, it's not task driven. Um, I think it's a, it's intent and purpose driven as opposed to being good at X, which is a skill based construct probably. Brilliant. Amy, thank you. I was so happy to be here. Maybe I did have something to say. Oh yeah. You'll figure it out. Oh yeah. So seriously, thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for sharing your journey. Great. And, um, it's wonderful to see what you and your team are doing at Microsoft. And it's been, yeah, it's been a pleasure. We appreciate your help. It's really, I think what's great is, um, when you realize that you can be really in our worldview,

both build great stuff, but do it with a purpose. I think that matters a lot. Right at the center of it. It is. Okay. So thank you. Awesome. All right. If you love this conversation as much as I did, I hope you can write a little review on iTunes or wherever you subscribe to the Finding Mastery podcast. If you haven't subscribed, please, please do so. We love it. And you're helping build a base about this conversation and the tactics and strategies and the practices that world-class performers have employed along their way or their path of mastery. And so thank you for writing reviews. Thank you. And if you haven't, again, please do so. If you want to be part of the finding mastery tribe or community you can go over to our website called findingmastery.net forward slash community and it's a private group there

that um we'd love to have you part of to be able to have conversations and to support and challenge each other on the path of mastery and then you can hit us up on social at michael gervais is twitter and on instagram is at Finding Mastery. And I just want to say thank you. And it's been a blessing to be able to learn from some of the world-class performers and people that are just switched on about how their craft works and how the life development for those that they love and themselves included matter. So all the best to you. I hope you have a fantastic day. And you explore your own living

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