Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Millions Watched Me Dance — No One Saw My Trauma I Derek Hough

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

What if one of the greatest choreographers and dancers of our time found mastery not in movement… but in stillness?This week on Finding Mastery, we’re joined by Derek Hough—four-time Emmy Award winner, six-time Dancing with the Stars champion, and one of the most respected dancers and choreographers in the world.This conversation isn’t just about dance. It’s about self-discovery, emotional resilience, and the quiet power of going inward.Derek opens up about the intense challenges he faced growing up—from early trauma and feeling like an outsider to finding belonging in rhythm and movement. He shares the surprising moment that forced him to stop dancing—and what he found in the stillness that followed.This episode explores:Why comfort, not control, was the key to Derek’s healingHow early trauma shaped his drive for perfection—and how he redefined successWhat it takes to lead others through fear and unlock performance through empathyThe shift from external validation to internal alignmentThe daily practices that help Derek stay grounded in a high-pressure worldWhether you’re an artist, a coach, or someone navigating your own path to self-mastery—this one’s for you.Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

There was this terror. I was a young boy and I had night terrors. How old were you? I was before eight years old. And the reason why I know before eight years old is because I grew up Mormon and you get baptized when you're eight years old. And I just remember being excited to be baptized

because I was excited to wash away all these things that happened to me as a young boy. What if I told you one of the best choreographers and dancers in the world, learn mastery through stillness? Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais,

by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is quite simple, to sit with the extraordinaries and learn, to really learn how they work from the inside out. Now today's conversation is with Derek Hough, Under 21's Latin World Champion, four-time Emmy Award winner, six-time Dancing with the Stars champion, and one of the most respected dancers and choreographers on the planet. I think this feeling of always needing to achieve something to be successful, to win, I equated all that with love.

It was like in order for me to feel love or to feel worthy of love, I had to succeed. So I wanted to sit with Derek here, not just because of Derek's mastery of craft, which is undeniable in the world of dance, but for his commitment to mastery of self and how he expresses that through radical honesty. There's a moment in my life as an adult

I was experiencing some anger. I didn't quite understand where it was coming from. Who I was as a person wasn't congruent with who I wanted to become and who I wanted to be. Trauma, ambition, identity, healing, love, it's all in there. And we explore the moment when life forced him to stop dancing and what he found in the stillness.

Going from a thousand miles an hour, being on tour, going for thousands of people with my beautiful wife, we'd just been married for three months. Then at the hospital, the doctor talking to me, just basically saying that, you know, she might not survive. You're going from like the lowest of lows to then like the smallest things being the highest highs. No award, no competition, no like achievement could compare to the moment when she said her own name. And I knew that it was her.

I really hope you'll find meaning in this week's conversation with Derek Hough. Derek, this is a real treat. in this week's conversation with Derek Hough. ["Derek Hough"] Derek, this is a real treat. And I'll tell you why. One, I've loved your body of work. And I became familiar with it because my wife grew up as a dancer. Amazing.

Like when somebody is skilled at something, they see it differently. And so I'm watching you and she's like, oh wait, but that and this. And so I got a kind of a tutorial of how special you are what you do. Thank you. And so this is a treat. Thank you, man. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm glad you said body of work and I love your body. I thought it was gonna be a different type of interview.

Yeah, just turn quickly. But you are fit. I will say. No, no, but it's awesome that you were talking about your wife, you know, being a dancer or having dance background as well, because I feel like once you've experienced dance, once you've danced, doesn't matter if you leave it, you haven't danced in years, there's something there. There's something that always stays with you. It's so special. Yeah, I mean, she likes to, so I grew up surfing.

And I'm on record saying it's the hardest sport in the world. And she's like- Can I just tell you something? I'm not bad at, I can wake surf all day, and I cannot surf for the life of me and everybody makes fun of me. They're all my friends who surf. They're like, man, you are not good at surfing.

That is funny because you're super athletic. Respect to you, respect. No, but so I'll say something like that and then she'll be like, you can't say that. You never danced, you know? And so she's like, she thinks it's the hardest in the, you know, in the world ever. So, yeah.

Listen, it's, being, you know, being a dancer, you know, I often say this as well, especially with people who say like, oh, I don't dance. I often say, well, when did you decide that? Because I feel like we all have dance in us. If you look at like a toddler, right, before they can walk or crawl, you put them on the ground, you put music on, what do they do, right?

They go, they're kind of like bouncing around, they're bopping around. It's like in us, it's a desire to move. And if we look at like, you know, tribes and history and culture, there's like two things that brought us together, it was food and it was dance. You know, we mourned with dance, we celebrated with dance,

we prayed with dance. The way we did things as community. And then as we got older, we kind of entered in civilization and things, and we started worrying about what people think, and we started worrying about what people think, and we started worrying about people judging us. We suddenly become more closed off. And that's why people, you know, drink.

So they can be like, yes, I feel connected. You know what I mean? I'm back to myself and they can dance and give themselves permission to dance. So I, dance for me is, it's not just like an art form or it's like a like an art form, it's like a part of who we are. How did you get exposed to it? Let's go back, let's go back to early days,

because I do want to open up your genius and really understand mastery of self and mastery of craft with you from your lenses. But let's go back to where it started. What is important for me to know to really understand you? Well, for me, the way I got into dance was I have four sisters and I was the only boy and I would sit in the parking lot while my sisters were in dance class and my mom would

just drag me in. She goes, you're going to go in there and dance. You're just sitting there doing nothing. And I was like, no, no, no, I don't wanna go. I think it was about nine or 10 years old. But I did not wanna go. I did not wanna go. I was screaming, kicking, and be like, no, dancing's for girls, this is dumb. And I walked in there and I was like,

oh, there's girls in here, oh, I quite like this. And I immediately gravitated towards it because of the music music first and foremost. You know, you hear the music, the bass hitting your chest and just the rhythm. And then once you start moving your body to it, once your body experiences syncing up with a beat or a rhythm or music, something just happens.

You're like, oh, that, I like that. What is that? That's an amazing feeling. How do I continue to feel that way? How do I recapture that? And then you're constantly kind of like wanting to create that feeling. You had that at a young age? That was an early entry?

So early entry, early entry, and also to be honest with you as well, the desire was also community. Because when I would go to school as a young boy, you know, like many kids, I just didn't feel like I fit in. You know, I was like, I didn't really have friends at school. I didn't have my little clique. I definitely felt like an outsider always.

I think even at a young age, I felt like I had to earn being a friend or earn something and by doing something really great and doing something cool. So for instance, in like the schoolyard, I was last pick because I was a short kind of you know Scrawny little kid and kickball was the one. Yeah, you play kickball. I didn't play no football and I was so scrawny but What took me into dance was all of a sudden? I felt like one I had a mentor and a coach and a teacher who was speaking

to me not like a kid but like in a kind of like an adult like he was just like it was just the way he communicated it was it was like oh I feel like I'm a part of something and then of course the other dancers and the music it just felt like I was, I belonged there, you know, it was a belonging that was really wonderful. And you didn't have that experience on the schoolyard and other places, like there was an awkwardness. And yeah, to back your point up is that, I think it's the job of adolescents is to be as awkward

as often as you can without numbing it so that you learn how to be awkward, so that when you get out of the awkward phase, you're okay with those awkward moments. But if you drink over it or drug over it or numb it in any other way, then you don't get enough reps. You don't get enough time under tension with being awkward. And then you go into adulthood needing something to deal with the awkwardness

and that spurs a ton of anxiousness. Oh yeah, but I mean just to add to what you said there, I mean my goodness, going to Hollywood parties or events for premieres or charity events or whatever it might be, oh my gosh, especially the early days, had to have a drink, had to have something in my hand, had to get that little bit of a buzz or something like that

so that way I could communicate and talk. Otherwise it was like, this is incredibly awkward. Yeah, it's a really dangerous kind of slide path. Keep staying here because at the young age, I do want to understand how you work through this because the way you work through that likely is how you work through hard times now. Sure. And I want to see if there's something there for you. So is there one or

two really difficult or life shifting experiences that you had when you're younger that we can pull to the surface to open up and examine? I mean, to be honest with you, one is is a feeling of being unsafe. At quite a young age, my neighbors were, where I grew up, bullying is not even a real word. They tormented my family in so many ways. I mean, I was- With the whole family. Yeah, not just me.

They would do things to my sisters as well. For example. Rip earrings out of their ears. Even to this day, my sister has two split earlobes jump in front of cars, do just crazy things. They tied me up by my ankles, hung me up in a tree upside down, left me there for a while, and then would spin on me and then put a gun to my head

to just let me feel like how it feels, the weight of it, the coldness of the metal. Hog tie me, put me in a field, leave me there for a while. So there was this like terror. And I was a young boy and I had night terrors. How old were you again? I was before eight years old.

That was before? Before eight years old. And the reason why I know before eight years old is because I grew up Mormon and you get baptized when you're eight years old. That was before? Before eight years old. And the reason why I know before eight years old is because I grew up Mormon. And you get baptized when you're eight years old. And I just remember being excited to be baptized because I was excited to wash away all these things that happened to me as a young boy.

So there was, and I had night terrors, you know? I was terrified at night. I would wanna go to my friend's house and sleep over or something like that. And then the second it would get dark, I would be like, I need to go back home. I was scared kid, which is ironic because then at 12 years old, I ended up moving from Utah all the way to London by myself, moved in with my coaches. So from being this sort of terrified, scared little kid who couldn't stay over at the neighbors across the street,

at 12 years old, I ended up moving across the world, which is, this is crazy. So two parts. I wanted to understand that gap. I didn't understand how you went from Utah to London and kind of almost started your adult life at age 12, it feels like, like your professional life. Pin that for a moment.

How much, I just wanna honor what you went through, is heavy. That is life-changing type of experience for people. I don't feel in this moment a response to that early trauma. I don't feel it. But I am curious how much of that, as you were sharing it and talking about it, how much of that are you still carrying?

Like how heavy is those bags? It's interesting you mention that too because I remember I was talking about this, I was in therapy and I was talking about this exact thing and I was talking about it just like this and they're like, hold on dude. I was like, let's talk about what that, that was big time. That's not just like a little thing, hold on, dude. I was like, let's talk about what that, that was big time.

That's not just like a little thing, that's serious stuff. And of course I'm kind of like, oh, you know, they must be like going through stuff themselves. And I always sort of like, well, they must be going through something in order to do that. Power over others is weakness in disguise, right? And so they must be, I'm trying to have empathy for them.

And he's like- As an adult or as a kid? As an adult, as an adult. as a kid as an adult as an adult And like and he's like they're like, hey That's admirable. I appreciate that but also it's okay to be like Really mad about that and on behalf of that young boy To really feel that on for him 100. Yeah, and I was like, I don't know anger isn't really my my thing like I I find it really weak and I just don't

that's not like my thing and there's that good expression that's like whatever you resist persist and Boy have I been resisting like anger for a long time because I just whenever I see people get anger I'm like, I don't like that. It's weak. I just don't like that emotion. They've lost control. They lost control They don't and they don't have a better option There's a moment in my life as an adult where I I kind of went I just don't like that emotion. They've lost control. They've lost control. They don't have a better option. There's a moment in my life as an adult where I kind of went, I was experiencing some anger

and I didn't quite understand where it was coming from. I didn't understand like, why am I getting frustrated? Why am I getting, ugh, you know, why do I have this like, this thing in me? And I would hate that about myself. And then once I sort of had a moment where I just consciously and purposefully got angry

for that young boy. For him. Did you have a nickname? No, well I mean my dance teacher called me Heavy D because I was so small. Heavy D was the name? Heavy D was my nickname because I was so small. But it was liberating, it was really liberating

because when I felt like I was so small. But it was liberating. It was really liberating because when I felt like I was honoring him, me, but I was also experiencing the full spectrum of emotion because I kind of like, as if it was a pendulum, I kind of, this side of it, like anger or negative emotions or whatever it might be, I was only allowing it to swing this far. That only allows me to swing this far too

and enjoy and happiness. So I'm kind of living in this like, kind of, everything's okay. Instead of like the full, I'm experiencing like full, you know, anger. I'm not living there, I'm not staying there, but I'm feeling it and then I'm, wow. I can swing back over here.

The full spectrum, the full swing and pendulum of emotion. And it was really amazing. And actually, fun little story actually, this is a fun one. Jennifer Gray, one of my partners in Dancing with the Stars, she absolutely blindsided me. She goes, hey, we're going to this chiropractic tonight. I was like, okay, cool. I love chiropractic work and I love all that stuff.

So we go to this house. I'm like, this is a house? Okay, that's normal. We start going back to the side of the alleyway and it's like dark house, I'm like, this is a house? Okay, that's normal. We start going by the side of the alleyway and it's like dark and I'm like, okay, this is getting weird. We go into this like shed and this guy in there is an Australian guy with this white beard. He's like, good night, hey, Dan, sit down.

And I was like, okay. And then she goes, all right, I'm gonna leave you guys to it. And I'm like, what? Leaves me there with this guy. We start talking and I kind of start sharing certain things, you know, like I'm like what? It leaves me there with this guy. We start talking and I kind of start sharing certain things you know like I'm sharing with you now and then he just kind of looked at me and he said, he's like you can go pick him up now. He's like you can go pick him up. It's time. You've done a really great job. You moved away. You

needed to go achieve. You needed to go do what you needed to do. But you're there, you've done it. He's ready for you, he's waiting for you. And even now I get like well up thinking about it. And I just, the idea of going back and actually like picking him up, back up. And like, hey, let's go. You know, I got you bud. Everything's okay now, you know.

It was a really powerful moment. And I'm just, I'm thankful for that. You know, and it's hard because I okay now you know. It was a really powerful moment and I'm just I'm thankful for that you know and it's hard because I moved you know 12 years ago they're like how did you move to England? This episode is brought to you by Policy Genius. If you're listening to this podcast I know you care about living a better life. Doing the deep work now to prepare for what's ahead. That's how the best in the world do it. One of the most important yet overlooked pieces of forward planning, life insurance. We insure the things we rely on, our homes, our cars,

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Obviously, you're full with emotion. Yeah. Are you trying to manage the emotion or are you letting it flow? How are you working in this moment? I think I feel it. I think I feel the emotion and I feel the the connection with that younger self in a way that, but of course I feel myself feeling it

and then I go, ooh, you know, and I don't turn it off but I changed the focus a little bit into like right now in this moment. When I think about myself, and it's just me, I don't feel the emotion. When I actually separate it, and I think of it as like this younger boy. How scared he was. Like this guy, that's where I feel the emotion. I really feel connected.

More so than if I'm talking about myself. Oh yeah, I went through this when I was a young kid and this is what happened to me. But when I go with this young boy, then I really feel it. And I feel like a sense of, like wanting to comfort and to protect and to love. Those are three different words.

Comfort, protect and love. And is it all of those or is it one more than the other? Because you didn't say, I feel like I need to defend. You said protect, interesting difference. You didn't say I need to go, let me be provocative, I need to go f*** anyone that like even thinks about, you know, doing that kind of stuff to kids. Like you're purposely, you've got that guardian thing.

But so is it more love, the young Derek? Is it more protect? Is it more care? I think comfort. Comfort is the word. I think comfort because, protect feels like I can do something. And that I can't essentially. There's like I can do something and I and that I can't

essentially there's nothing I can do because it happened you know things happened but to comfort and to reassure because I'm here in the future and I'm like it's gonna be okay is that what you say, I think as simple as that, honestly. So, one, thank you for not what you shared, but how you shared it. I'm really excited to understand how this shows up in your adult love life, okay? And how this shows up in your relationship with yourself, and how this shows up in your relationship with yourself and how this shows up in how you create. So those are kind of the three really important pillars probably in your life, your relationship with yourself,

your relationship with your craft, how you do what you do, and your relationship in your love life with your wife and others. So if there was a springboard here, which one do you see the way that you've had this early care for this young part of you? How has it showed up? Which one is more interesting? Love life, relationship with yourself as an adult, or how you create?

Well, I think honestly the relationship with myself affects everything else. You know, it affects the relationship with my wife or, my wife or my my family or my loved ones or just people friends and and it also affects my my career Because there's definitely I look back and like at a time, you know, it's interesting, you know on Dancing with the Stars You know people will kind of look at me like oh, he's like, you know, golden boy, you know, just You know out there doing his thing But there was definitely a lot of few seasons on there for sure. More than I can count, honestly, that it was really, really hard, really hard

and not hard because, you know, life was hard as far as like, I was like, life was good, you know, but I wasn't really liking who I was. I wasn't liking the person I was. I wasn't congruent with the was. I wasn't liking the person I was. I wasn't congruent with the person that I believe I could be. I was really under performing as a person. And part of that was, a lot of that was, I hadn't addressed a lot of things.

There you go. Like if you don't get to the relationship with the traumas and the things that you're protecting or holding back, but you're not, I like to use imagery and storytelling. I think about, okay, so all of the science and theory of psychology is running underneath the surface, and I'm gonna, for me, and then I'm gonna just

tell you how I think about it, which is like, I gotta know my dragon. This dragon inside of me, I need to know it. And if I don't, and I lock it away, it just decays. And I think that's what many of us do. We've got this part of us that feels uncontrollably volatile and like wild, which is also amazing.

And we say, no, no, no, no, we can't get near that. It's too much. Go down in this dungeon, this cave. I'm gonna put a lock on it because there's too much there. And now the dragon's in the in this little dungeon kind of caved area for whatever amount of time. And then we need it all of a sudden one day to like the strength of the dragon to come out. But it does no understanding, no relationship with us. It's fire breathing everywhere, tail whipping. And it we're we're out of control with say anger maybe sure but to have a relationship you need to go like really examine the parts of

yourself that are down in in the dark yeah and you did that and there's a liberation you know that comes from it and by the way when I say liberation, to not sugarcoat that, it certainly isn't, oh, but you know, it gets worse. It gets worse when you experience all that stuff, right? When you allow it to come to the surface, when you allow it to feel it fully, when you allow all these things to come out, because you've essentially been like, you've been closing it down.

You're mentalizing, keeping it in a box, a box yeah it's good and things are coming out sideways and oh man it sucks oh boy does it suck it's like it's like a dry rag in a dusty attic oh it just kicks it all up yep oh it's just everywhere and you're like oh my gosh what is happening but then when you move through it when you really actually like It sounds so cliche these days, but when you do the work, you know It it's incredible. It really is and the best part about that as well is that when you're able to work Going back to what you said about the self part When you're actually to like work on yourself and really understand and get curious about it

then that's where the it becomes fun because then you're able to like work on yourself and really understand and get curious about it, then that's where it becomes fun because then you're able to like, with you, then you're like, oh, let me help somebody else. Let me like, let me hear your story. Let me see if I can help relate to that in some way. And then, so in career wise, especially for what I do in dancing,

where it's like, you're working with people, especially on Dancing with the Stars, where it's terrifying. Like, oh my God, you're putting them on a stage like you're working with people, especially on Dancing with the Stars where it's terrifying. Like, oh my God, you're putting them on a stage in front of millions of people doing something they're not comfortable doing. They're most likely going to mess up or fail or all these fears that they're afraid of. This is where like being a coach and being somebody that's there to give them that security and that to relate to them and to understand them is so important. What's the word used? It's escaping. It's

not care for younger Derek. What was the word you used? It was comfort. Yeah so that that's interesting because that's probably you needed it. That's the kind of thing in you and you're probably doing it extraordinarily well for your partners that are terrified. Right. Like think about all of that compassion that you have and understand for younger Derek and now expressing that, what a gift to give to the scared whoever that you know. Okay, so go to the London bit.

So you say 12 years old, I'm kind of done with this Utah life and with my family and did you have a mom and dad intact? Yeah, mom and dad, no, they were actually, it was interesting. So they were going through a divorce right in that time. So that divorce kind of in a way left an opening to allow me to go to England.

As one would say. Yeah. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. At 12, I didn't know what was happening at 12, and you're like, I'm going to London. No, well, I mean, what happened was, you know, the coaches came to my studio in Utah. They're named Corky and Shirley Ballas,

and they were like world champions, amazing, and. Wait, so how did they find this little shop in Utah? That's a good question, I'm not exactly sure. I think it was just a studio that was starting to like, BYU, Brigham Young University, they have a ballroom dance program. They've had it for many, many years. So this is a little bit of a circuit.

And somehow they saw you at 12. Yeah, I was in their class and they always described me as being sort of like the eager bee, I was like, you know, front asking the questions and answering the questions and I was in the adult class. Like, I just, I wanted to like... Oh, so you had a spark at a young age. Yeah, oh man, yeah, I was, I was,

once I was hooked on it, I wanted to become great at it. And I also knew that when they came, I felt like there was a shift that I was getting some different type of information I never got before. They spoke the language. They were, it was just like, whoa. And after even just like a few hours of working with them,

I just felt like instantly better. So for folks that don't know, I mean, this is like, I don't know, the Michael Jordan coming into town. Absolutely. Right. And so for ballroom, be specific. And so would you say that, this is a little provocative, but are they masters of craft

or are they extraordinarily high performers? I would honestly say masters of craft because, and for different reasons too, their dynamic is very interesting. Their story as a whole. That's a whole other episode, trust me. Shirley Ballas was a world champion at age 19 years old. She's extraordinary. Even to this day, she's in her mid-60s and she can hang. She can dance. So she's got foundation.

She's phenomenal. She's phenomenal. She's always had that understanding, but also the ability to actually show it and to dance it and to demonstrate it. Which a lot of teachers aren't able to do. Do those three parts, an understanding, ability, and then expression. Yes. All of those things she can do because oftentimes teachers have a lot of wisdom, they have a lot of knowledge, but they can't necessarily demonstrate.

She had the ability to demonstrate, to show you as well. His journey was extraordinary because when they met, he was a beginner and she was a world champion and he was a beginner. So when they got together, it was this, he experienced the long road to get to where he needed to get, you know? And people saying that he wasn't good

and that what is she doing dancing with this beginner when you're a world champion? And it was this crazy dynamic. Oh, as a partner even? As a partner. And so it took her 12 years to get back to being first again because she changed her partner because they fell in love and they became dance partners.

Oh, so a first principle for her was to do it with the people that you love over the people that will help you win so their dynamic as a as champions and as a couple Where it was he's from Texas. She's English like it was just this like exotic like in Utah, you know, but whoa, this is insane and and You know long story short they were like They just saw potential in me. They had a young son, Mark Ballas, and he was the only child.

And they were just kind of like, why don't you come live with us for a couple months and we'll train you. We see a lot of potential in you and you're friends with Mark. And at that time, my parents were home was just a little bit like uncertain. There was just no foundation there. Everything was a bit floaty and I didn't know what was going on. And so my parents were gracious enough. And I'm saying that, I really mean that.

The grace that they had to allow me as a young boy to move away, to have an amazing experience. I mean, it really changed my life, it really did. And the reason why I say grace too is as an adult, I am so, I look at my mom and I, the mornings that she would wake up crying, missing us. You just changed as you went into this part of the story. I think because I didn't think of it when I was a young kid.

I was like, I'm doing my thing, I'm in England, I'm training, I'm becoming the best. They're saying, come home. It's time to come home now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm like living my life. And I'm winning competitions. I'm going for the world championship in two years.

I'm on this, I can't come home. And they were like, okay. But as an adult, learning more and be more curious about what they were emotionally experiencing was devastating. It was really devastating. They sacrificed a lot. That is a lot.

Sacrificed a lot. There's a risk in there too. How did they know you were safe? Well, we would check in, of course, and communicate and talk and of course, but and they would see the results. They would see like, OK, they're they're doing what they're meant to do, that they're they're thriving over there.

But that's even seeing our success and seeing us thrive and doing what we're doing. They're missing out on being part of it. Yeah. And parents to us, you know, and and that time you don't see that, right? You just think about yourself. You're just like, oh, I'm doing what I need to do, you know? But as an adult, you're like, wow, thank you. So you mentioned twice, one's beautiful,

like the acknowledgement of your mom's sacrifice. Yeah. I think it was more your mom than your dad is what I felt in here. But yeah. Yeah. You mentioned mentioned twice like this, this is the part of the story where you had a vision and you're attacking it.

You were lining up your thoughts, your words, your actions. I think those are the most powerful people that can line up their thoughts, words and actions, even in rugged, scary, whatever environments. They have the mental skills and the physical and technical skills to do that. And then, but earlier in our conversation you said, no, I was at my lowest point when I had an idea of who I wanted to be and I couldn't be it. So do you work from like a vision, if you will, of who you want to become? Or is it more like a clarity of who I am at my best

and it's already in me? Is it something out there to go get version X? Or is it something inside of you to open up and express? It's definitely the latter. It's already inside you. Yeah, everything you need is within you right now, essentially. It's a first principle that I live by, which is everything you need is already within you. Yeah, everything you need is within you right now, you know, essentially. It's the first principle that I live by,

which is everything you need is already within you. Yes. So it's born out of Carl Rogers, Rogerian therapy, which is like an unconditional positive regard for you. It's already in you. It's all there, it's already there, which is ironic because I think this feeling

of always needing to achieve something, to be successful, to win, I equated all that with love. It was like in order for me to feel love, or to feel worthy of love, I had to succeed. I had to achieve. I had to win something. And only then would I be good enough to receive love,

or people would like me or love me. Did you know it at the time, or is this now looking back like, whoa, I was screwed up? Oh no, this is looking back, for sure. So at the time, you didn't know it? No, no, no, no, no, and not for a long time, because I won the world championships.

I was, you know, the youth champion. I won all these competitions and then I went into Dancing with the Stars. Now I'm in a whole other type of competition, right? I won that show more than anybody had won it, three times at that time. I've exceeded. How old were you?

I don't know, 26 or something like that. World champion, I think. In like 18, 19 years old. So just like your mentor. Cracked it at like a really young age. So 12 to 18 was kind of, you were on it. Oh, it was relentless. Yeah, and you were good.

Yeah, the structure there was, that's the key word there, it was structure. Like, I mean, it was like, we had an absolute, How many hours a day? Insane regimen. I mean, typical day is, you know, wake up at seven, get the 756 train, Thameslink across the Thames, change, get the tube tube go to Barbican walk

20 minutes get the school so took about an hour 15 to get to school and then you're in school from 9 a.m. till 6 o'clock at night normal school or dance school it's like a theater art school okay so it's academics in the morning and then vocation in the afternoon and then that finishes then you do the hour 15 back home train two different trains eight thirty get home eat something really fast and they go straight to dance and go train to be a Latin ballroom competitive dancer two hours two and a half hours two and a half hours so we go to like 11 o'clock

at night then we do it all over again and that's the weekdays then Saturday comes and Saturday is lesson start at 10 a.m. you have lessons all day private Then we do it all over again. And that's the weekdays. Then Saturday comes. And Saturday's lessons start at 10 a.m. You have lessons all day, private lessons, to work on the craft of Latin and ballroom dancing. And then you practice at night until 11 o'clock at night. And then Sunday is a competition. And Sunday is, and then what I mean by competition,

it's like it could be a local competition, it could be a national competition. But we're driving to Manchester, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Brighton. We're flying to France. We're going somewhere to compete. So that was like for years, that regimen, but that also assured success. Each week there was improvement. I felt there was an improvement every time we go to a competition.

So yes, that was relentless. Relentless. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. Pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods and when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery.

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and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Skims. We just finished the NBA Finals, and if you were following along, you've likely seen some Skims signage on court. When I heard Skims was launching a line for men, I was really curious. My wife loves their products, and quote unquote from her, they've done a really good job. They kind of nailed it. So I tried the boxer briefs, and then right away I could feel the difference.

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Again, that's skims.com slash finding mastery and select podcast and finding mastery so that they know that we sent you. Can you describe how you approach like your mindset, your mental skills, your psychological framing? I'm giving you lots of variants here, on how you would approach packing your bag to go to the competition.

Interestingly enough, I was not a great competitor. I was a great trainer. I loved training. I loved practice. I loved, like, I loved it. And then when it came to the competition, ugh, I hated it. I just fell apart. But as a young competitor, I was so,

I was such a perfectionist that what would happen is when we're dancing, and dancing is such a feeling thing, it's such a feeling thing where like, if it doesn't feel good, if the connection isn't right, if I don't land on my foot the right way, if there's not a full extension or something happens and you have a partner there too, right? So you're not just relying on yourself,

it's like this mutual experience. For me, if it didn't feel good, it just nails on a chalkboard. Just like the most excruciating feeling that would overcome me and I couldn't get myself out of it. And so in practice. Would it be frustration, or would it be negative self-talk, or is it like an anxiousness?

All the things. It would be frustration. Super busy up in your head? Just crazy. No connection to your body? Just crazy. And how do you help people now deal with that? I mean, it's the fear that we all have, right?

We all have that fear of not being good enough. And that was just heightened in a situation where you're being judged, right? Because you think like, oh, I'm not good enough and they're not going to like me. Uniquely for you, because earlier you described that your entire kind of identity, your worth to be loved even, was now at stake.

Yes. So when you walked on and they called your number and you did your thing to the middle of the floor and the lights were da da da and eyes were on you, it wasn't just like, is he a good dancer? Like look at the lines. It was like my entire, you don't understand, my entire identity is at risk.

And if it's not perfect, if I'm not in the pocket, then wham, and I'm's not perfect if I'm not in the pocket then And I'm brutal to myself. I'm disconnected and I can't have that so I better I better work my ass off in the gym Yeah, and be like better than I was yesterday or anyone ever did it the fear of the fear of going out there and not being good was like far outweighed the joy of Winning would you, yeah, would you, look, you're world best, you won this show three in a row, you have this big body of work,

of working with world's best as well. I can keep going on and on about like your body work. Would you change the torment that you had, I guess we could go twice, but I'm thinking about this internal torment to get better. Would you, is there a better way or is that the way? No, no, no, no, there's definitely a better way for sure. I think I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, I suppose. And again, I'm not sitting here playing the violin, saying like, oh, what was me?

It was so difficult because I think that, again, it was part of my journey and I'm thankful for it. And I'm thankful for, there's things about that that I wouldn't change because it gave me a drive. It gave me this ambition. It gave me this, you know. But that's the question. Like, okay, let's say you know. But that's the question, like if you, okay,

let's say you're coaching a young kid. Yeah. Are you coaching through inspiration or desperation? Because you had the desperation. Sure, yeah. Right, and we, this is what's happening in the field right now of, let's call it high performance or mastery,

is think about old school, which is what you're capturing. Sure. High performance begins where wellness ends. We swallowed that pill, all of us did at some point. And we don't have to swallow that anymore. We know that wellness and high performance, this commitment to being your very best, this masterful way of going through life is possible,

but not without agitation, not without resistance is the word used. There's still, it's unsettling to get to your edge where the unlock happens, but it doesn't mean that you've gotta f*** yourself, and it doesn't mean that you've gotta be terrible to yourself, and rude to others, and sacrifice everything for the one thing that might not ever actually happen.

And that was really the realization for me was I remember being in my apartment and I was looking up and I think I had won like an Emmy and at that time there was three mille-rond trophies and think about all these. How many Emmys now? Four. Congrats. Thank you. But I remember looking at this hardware and I remember being really in a bad place, just really in a dark spot. And I'm like, what the heck is going on, man? Come on, dude, you're living the dream,

you're top of the game, what is going on here? Because my whole life, I've talked about it, it was success equal love. It was equal love, but all of a sudden here I am and I don't feel love I don't feel love for myself and therefore I don't feel it from anybody else honestly and people would be like wow you're great all these things but what I realized in that moment was that the fulfillment aspect of it was gone and it's it's about the who I was as a person wasn't congruent with

what I want who I wanted to become and who I wanted to be and once I started diving into that and really like waking up and be like I like this person not because of what I've achieved not because of the awards not because of this stuff just just because of me just me just by myself like in a field, empty, with nothing. Once I kind of started to be like, I like that person. Then it was like, honestly, there was like this like rocket fuel, essentially. And the opportunities, the things that happened from that,

I think I won two seasons after that, back to back, and then I did this, but I wasn't doing it to win. I wasn't doing it for, I had a different intention, I had a different reason, a different purpose for doing things. It wasn't about winning, it wasn't about proving myself, it wasn't about being the best, it wasn't about all this stuff,

it was a different intention, different fuel, which was like, I like this person, And I'm gonna do this for a different reason for an enjoyment of it versus the to try to prove something. And do you know your purpose? Are you clear about your life purpose? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think I mean, let's be real, there's some days when I'm like, what am I doing? What is the purpose of this all? But I think for the most part, where I feel the most aligned and I feel the most fulfilled is what I'm genuinely serving.

And I mean that, even just the other day, I flew out and I taught at a dance studio. There's these little kids in there. And one of them came up and gave me a hug at the end of the class and and they looked up at me and I no joke I just like again I get emotional again because I think about that little boy and I'm like wow I'm I'm I'm able to be

in a position now where I'm able to now like help this person's dreams I'm able to like that guide this person and to give this person an opportunity. You know and I'm so unbelievably thankful to be in that position where I'm able to help, where I'm able to serve and even on tours when I'm performing. Man I would get burned out, I would get so tired, I would get exhausted and you know I'm doing Dancing with Stars at the same time as I'm doing the shows. But it would get exhausting because I was doing it for me. But once I went to go out there and I'm like, I'm here to like, I'm here to freaking serve this audience, I'm here to give them something, I wanna give like,

it just, it gave me this like endless well of energy that I can wake up every day. And even if I'm a little tired, the second I see their faces, it's just like, I just, it's amazing, it's amazing. But it's again. It's one of the great insights. It's not about being loved, it's amazing, it's amazing. But it's again. It's one of the great insights. It's not about being loved, it's having people to love.

Yeah, yeah. And if you do get the order of that wrong the other way, it's about being loved, not having people to love. Quickly you see just how of a hungry ghost that is. Like you can never feed, you know, or satiate that thing. But if you have someone to love, and it doesn't need to, that doesn't mean like a wife or a partner

that just you can love. Mother Teresa was never married. Pretty epic woman. So, okay, so shifting slightly here. This is awesome. What is your craft? What is my craft? I Don't know cuz I wouldn't I wouldn't just specify and go into dance. I think that's right for you I wouldn't just go into I feel like it's obviously created. I have in my little bio thing, but created to create I

love creation And by the way, that can mean doing yard work. I love gardening, because I love to create, I love to nurture, I love seeing transformation. I love that, that just gives me amped. When I see something transform, or somebody transform, if I'm teaching them dance, do you see them not be able to do something,

and then all of a sudden they can do something? That transition is like, it's so exciting. Okay, this is cool. Because like your vehicle is through dance. Correct. It's the laboratory. Yes. You know, it's like, but it sounds like your purpose

is to serve, to kind of, you know, pour into other people. And then your craft is to help unlock something in others. It could be the audience that's like inspired or feeling something or like they're crying just watching a beautiful piece, or it's your partner that you're coaching and helping them do something that you have this idea is possible, but which is kind of massaging

and getting into the right whatever to unlock it. So I, you and I have of is possible, but which is kind of massaging and getting it to right, whatever, to unlock it. So you and I have some mutual friends, which is always fun. So I called them to ask for some questions. Oh no, okay. Okay. Who is it?

Okay, so the first one is Misty Copeland. Oh Misty, I love Misty. Yeah, so Misty recognizes one of the greats in ballet on point. Yes she is. And she's amazing. And so she has a question for you about creating. So it's fun that you went the creative way.

So full question or text back to me was he actually created a piece on me some years ago. I believe it was his first time choreographing for ballerina and specifically in pointe shoes. So I'd love to know, this is Misty speaking, in his creative process is he shaping the work around who's in front of him and their capabilities or is he more about challenging the dancer to step into his vision? Before you answer, this question has been a theme

throughout everything we've talked about. Your vision of what could be, and then your creative process to help unlock something in the other. So again, let me, question is right on point for this. No pun intended there. Is he shaping the work around who's in front of him and their capabilities, or is it more about challenging

the dancer to step into his vision? It depends. It depends, honestly, who I'm working with. Meaning, for instance, well, first of all, Misty Copeland, I mean, working with her was like, working with, it was just like having just a bouquet of flowers, just like, you're like, oh my gosh, it's endless what I could do with her right because I'm just like do you like oh, yeah

Yeah, do that. That's great. Um, you know, yeah do that and oh you didn't do to do for great Fantastic like it was so wonderful to work with her cuz her facility was so broad and her she also has that discipline You know that discipline where she's like, if I say try something, she goes, okay, like she's ready to go. There's no sort of like question. She's gonna push me as a choreographer. You know what I'm saying?

The best pull us. Yes, and that's where I'm like, oh, you can do more than, I'm saying do this, but you can do more than that. Or you can go further with that. So you're calibrating against what the capability is, but do you have a vision of what you'd like this bouquet to look like? Yes, there's always a vision there.

For me, it's a feeling, though. It's a feeling. There is vision there, without a doubt, where I can kind of see it, but my main test is this in me. It's the feeling I get when I see something. And I just know, that's not right. It's like a little, it settles, it opens.

It's something here where when I watch it, it's a process. Because I might have an initial vision of what I want musically, the dynamics, the costumes, the colors, the lighting, all that. Yes, I need that sort of vision as like a sort of a director, a director's mind. Then as a choreographer, it's feeling. It's like, try this. No, that's not right. Do this do this move that but how do you get the feeling when you're seeing? Misty kind of do her thing like what's how does how does her? Shape mm-hmm give you a feeling. I don't know. It's it's it's just it's something it's hard to pinpoint

When I'm in the process of doing something I'm creating but to go back to what she at her question real fast was do I do I try to push the dancer into my vision? Or do I create with the person in front of me? It's that one, to be honest with you. It's create, it's co-create. I co-create, and I've always been like that. Even on Dancing with the Stars, a lot of dancers will come in with routines

pre-choreographed and they'll come and teach it. I got this routine, here we go, I'm going to show you the routine. I never came in prepared. I heard that from our producer who also worked on your show. I never came in prepared, which by the way, was miserable. For whom? For me, and for them I'm sure, because it was frustrating because I would constantly change things.

And they were like, well which one is it there? I felt like having that ability to sort of create on the spot and create with the person in front of me to create where they were, where they were at their level and then to exceed it as well but I felt like I was able to get the best out of them. Do you err more on support or challenge? What do you mean by the support? Like meaning okay I'm gonna try something Let's try something together. I think you're ready this and I just want to check it out and like let's feel our way through this A little bit. Yeah, or is that like wait, hold on, you know, I know you've got more extension in your head Right, right. Like come on like pull that out a little further

I'll say this depending on who I'm working with because I think that what did you do with Misty? With Misty? Oh anything. I was like oh yeah I had another one of those turns in there for sure. Do that. Oh my gosh do this. So more on the support like the collaboration versus like Misty there's more in you. Like take it a little further. She did not. She certainly is a person that doesn't need that. If I were to say, hey, try this, do this, she would do it, honestly. That would only come from her being like, ah, I don't really wanna do that,

or it doesn't feel good. That would never happen. She was like, okay, let's do this, let's go. Versus if somebody were saying, if somebody says, ah, I can't do that, and I'm like, no, you can do that. I know you can do that. And then, but then it's up to me to get them to do that.

By showing the steps. And not just showing them, but to get them to believe they can do it and to show them the process. How do you do that? How do you help somebody believe that they can? One is just to know who they are, right? What's their background? What do they feel comfortable in, you know, in their life?

What's something that feels like they can understand? And I talk in those terms. So for instance, like if I'm talking to, you know, an actor, right? Or I'm working with an actor on Dancing with the Stars. Like, I can't do that. I'm like, okay, all right, well, hold on. But if you could, how would you do it?

You know what I mean? Like what do you mean? But I would use sort of an anecdote or something that they can relate to, and you're a surfer, right? So if I'm talking to you and we're doing a dance, I'm like okay, well listen, it's like when you push off the surfboard,

you have to push off equal balance, otherwise if you do one side too much, you're gonna flip over the side, right? And you go, oh yeah, I understand that. Okay, you utilize, when you push off that, what muscles are being activated? It's like my back, my lats, my chest. Okay, cool, so when we do this move,

I need you to activate those same muscle groups. When you push off, all of a sudden you're like, oh, dance is crazy, but then you're like, oh no, no, no. By the way, surfing is an incredible form of movement and balance and adjusting and flowing and all these things. So utilizing- I feel seen, Derek. Yeah, yeah.

But it is, I mean, it's super athletic and the core engagement and all these different things. Working with Amy Purdy, she was a Paralympian. She lost her legs at 19 below the knee, both of the legs. Both double amputee. And working with her, I could communicate to her in snowboarding terms. And then, but then, but dance, then she would be like, oh, it makes perfect sense. Yes, you're translating from who they are, what they know into what you want to feel or see. Yeah, that's awesome.

Because dance is, that's the thing. Dance is a word, but movement, we all move. We are all moving. You walking into this room, you know, getting into your car, whatever it is, we are moving and dancing is just a little bit, it's just a little organized movement. That's it.

We get afraid by the word. And so my goal is to like not make you afraid of it, but to sort of embrace movement. This episode is brought to you by Finding Your Best, our very own signature mindset course here at Finding Mastery. Hey everyone, it's Caroline Burkle. I'm a mindset coach, an Olympic medalist,

and someone who spent a lot of time figuring out what it really means to feel like my best self and not just look like it on paper. So here's what I know. Performance isn't just about discipline and drive. It's about tuning in. It's about regulating your nervous system. It's not about just pushing through.

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almost 2026 and summer is upon us. So let's invest in ourselves. When you use the code SUMMER75, you can get $75 off at FindingMastery.com slash course. Again, that's code SUMMER75, SUMMER75 at FindingMastery.com slash course for $75 off. I want to take a moment to tell you about a podcast I think you're really going to enjoy. It's called Think Fast, Talk Smart. It's hosted by bestselling author and Stanford lecturer

Matt Abrahams, and it's all about helping you become a more effective communicator. Each Tuesday, Matt sits down with world-class experts to discuss how to hone and develop your communication skills. Skills like mastering small talk, keeping your nerves in check while speaking to large groups, and science-based strategies to help boost your confidence across all types of interactions. Think Fast, Talk Smart is a really cool podcast that teaches us how to communicate better. Take a listen every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. How about somebody like Nicole Scherzinger? Nicole Scherzinger, oh my goodness, by like Tony Award winner. Yeah, she's a force. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so how do you work with somebody

who's already pretty, I mean, not Misty. There's probably, she's in a category alone, right? But somebody that really has a command, can move, can sing, comes from a place. I don't know her, but she feels very strong in the way she presents. How would you coach? Well, I think the first and foremost, I'll say this.

Trust is really important when you're a coach in that position and when I joined the show my first two partners did not want to be with me. They're like who is this scrawny little boy who I came on the show to dance with these like strong sexy guys and here I am like this like 90 pound like, guys, I'm gonna teach you how to do a cha cha. Like, this sucks. Dang it. But I actually appreciated knowing that because I knew like, okay, I have to earn this.

I have to earn their respect. My world championship does not hang. You know, they don't care. They don't care. So even with Nicole, who again, I remember like looking at her on billboards when I was living in England being like, oh my gosh, she's like this goddess and incredible. And I go into a room and also I have to teach her how to dance and teach her how to do something.

Like she's the superstar. So it's important to be very certain of myself as a coach and being like, okay, I know what I'm doing. I have knowledge, I have the tools and I'm here to help her. So working with her. It's cool. So it's trust. Yes. Establishing trust and backing yourself. So self-confidence. Yes. Knowing how to speak to yourself about what is, what your capabilities and strengths and unique assets that you're bringing to this collab.

Yes. And the way that you're building trust is probably by bringing your best forward and being interested in their capabilities. And being interested in being strong. We had a fun. We had a lot of fun. We had a great dynamic. We were very like, we joked around a lot.

We have this very similar sense of humor. But I was also very strong, you know what I mean, in the coaching style. Because it was sort of like, if I was kinda like, hey, maybe do this? It wasn't that, it was like, do this. I need you to do this, I need you to do that. You actually have that.

In this conversation, you've got a tenderness, you've got an openness to explore. You're highly conscientious. You've got a vertical alignment that presents with a low agreeableness. You're not gonna agree just to agree. You might say, oh yeah, but then you're gonna say something that is actually your point of view,

which is where your strength, how your strength, how your strength is expressed. It's not where it comes from. It comes from the hard things that you've been through, the relationship with yourself that you've built to be able to open the aperture and be like, here I am and that doesn't make sense to me or that I see it this way. So do others see you in the same way that I just expressed or does that feel foreign to you? No, well first thanks. Thank you. I appreciate it. I think that's a compliment.

Yeah, those are definitely assets. That's very kind. I'll say this. My journey as... I'm just a very curious person. I've always been curious. Even when I was a young kid, my mom would put me in art lessons, karate lessons, swimming lessons, drum lessons, guitar, dance. I was always learning something, and so I think that curiosity has stayed with me. So even when I behave certain ways, when I'm in the dance studio and I've lost my patience and I'm not being kind, you know,

in my earlier seasons of Dancing with the Stars, I look at those and I kind of like wince a little bit. Because there's moments where I'm like, wow, I was a scared little boy on this big stage trying to coach when I really had no business in that moment doing that. So you know what an imposter syndrome feels like? Oh my God. Yeah, feels like? Oh my God.

Yeah, me too. Oh my God. I mean, like, if you're gonna try to do something, you're gonna get over your skis and be a little bit faster on the hill than you know you're capable of. Yeah. Yeah, so thank you.

Oh no, the amount of times I'm just like, oh my gosh, if they find out that I'm actually not this like. Yeah, I know how to dance, but I don't know how to coach. Oh my God. Yeah. People would call me a choreographer, I'm like, no, I'm not, no, I'm not.

I'm just, it took me years to sort of, to be like, okay, I do have good instincts. Can you, you're a great choreographer. I mean, can you count? Do you know the numbers one, two, three, four? Cause you guys all start at five, six, seven, eight. You guys do know one, two, three, four? We do, we do.

We know, we also know one E and a two E and a three E and a four. I've heard you don't count. I heard you do sounds. I do I do I hear it. I was like It's Cuz sometimes I think when you make sounds it helps identify the move because it's like a So, you know that the move is like a sustained movement or if it's got gotcha, then you know, that's like a it's a it's like a zah. So you know that the move is like a sustain movement. Or if it's like a ka ka, then you know that's like a, it's an impact movement, right? So I'll actually do that when I'm coaching somebody.

I'll say, I need you to sing this with me. Ziga do da da da. And so they would do it as a dance. Ziga do da da da. So, and what happens is their body, when they go, when they make those sounds, their body wants to do what they're doing in their mouth. So even on the dance floor,

they're actually making those noises as well because it helps them, you know. That's cool. Or if I'm working with like an Olympian, like an Olympic athlete who has been taught, do not smile, no emotion, I'm here, and I'm trying to get them to perform. I would have them just make sounds and noises I say I want you to go wow and whoa and hey, let's go on and have them say that every time they hit a move

And like why you do that? It's like nothing. We're just making sounds, but let's go and I do it with them I'm like, yeah. Whoa. Yeah, and then we watch on camera. They're going like I'm like, yeah, whoa, yeah. And then when you watch it on camera, they're going like. And they have this emotion and they're having fun and it's like emoting something. So you're just finding little tricks. Who are you thinking of?

Sean Johnson. Okay, it's funny because I called Nastia Lukan. Oh, you're Nastia. So this was the other person. So before we go to Nastia, and I've got a question from Nastia, but what did you learn? I'm gonna put you on the spot here a little bit.

What did you learn from Misty? One thing I learned with Misty is it doesn't matter how good you are, what you've achieved, how far you've come. When you're in that studio, you're there to work. You're there to work. And she was a worker. And she was so gracious and respectful. And we're friends now. Like we know each other.

Like, hey, what's up? You know, but at that time it's like, I'm like, hello. Discipline. And by the way, this is. This is switched on. This is also right before when we created this piece for her

at the Lincoln Center, I feel like I could, somebody told me about her, they're like Misty Copeland, she's this ballerina, she's amazing, she's this and that, she's like making history and I'm like I'd love to create for her. And then I feel like it was like three months later all of a sudden it was Misty Copeland, like the Misty Copeland, you know all the campaigns and the billboards and the things and it was really cool to be able to To experience her Before and also to experience her after all that and how she's remained this incredible athlete, you know and

and just and just humble and gracious and man that is man, I might respect I think people if they even had a they've understood a fraction of What it took or what it takes to get her level as a ballerina the hours the oh My gosh, you just we wish wouldn't go near it. What's that intensity? at her level as a ballerina, the hours, the, oh my gosh. You just wouldn't go near it. What's that intensity?

It's beyond. It's super switched on. It's beyond. Yeah. It's incredible. And so she's amazing. I love her to death. She's amazing. That's very cool. I mean, I could feel like I'd have this conversation

for a long time with you is that you have, and I think it's relatively new, some of the stuff that's gone on with you and your wife. And so when I learned about what your wife went through, I was like, can you go to like what that phase is like and maybe just open up what she's gone through and open that up because nobody gets through this life without going through hard stuff.

You're either in the storm or heading to it. And there is a science around resilience and hardiness and dealing with difficult things. But I would love from a first-hand experience, you know, if you could celebrate and even share, you know, what you guys have been through. Yeah. Well, I mean, going from a thousand miles an hour, being on tour, performing in front of thousands of people with you know my beautiful wife. We've just been married for three months so we're in that like honeymoon phase just life is great wonderful and dancing with the stars judging that finished the finale

and finally back on the road and we're going to like Florida now where the weather is nice because we've been in the East Coast and during the winter time and And to suddenly then Feeling like I lost my wife because in a way I did in a way I did. The night it all happened, she was having seizures on the side of the stage and not making sense. What happened, we actually hit heads. That's what caused the bleed. So then there was of course an overwhelming sense of guilt and shame. You know, like I caused this and even though we've hit heads many times before, things happen.

Dancers,cers always happens. Nothing was out of the ordinary. She actually happened at the beginning of the show, an hour and a half later, towards the end, that's when the symptoms started to kick in. She actually danced three dances, didn't skip a beat, and she doesn't remember it at all. She just remembers being on stage at this one point. But I was like, honey, you danced three full numbers,

and then you didn't come on stage. And she has no recollection. It's insane. The hospital, the doctor talking to me, just basically saying that she might not survive. I'm like, what? Like... And even if she does, it's so severe, the midline shift, the swelling has begun so severe that this is brain damage.

So she's not going to be the same person, even if she does survive. So... How did you... Did you, could you process that? I was still in my rhinestone shirt, man. I was literally, we were just off the, off the stage. It was crazy. They had to cut her out of her costume. I was, you didn't know. I was on the floor, um, in tears. I think at first I was kind of like, kept myself together. But once I had a moment, it was two in the morning, you know, it was late by that time.

And so the hospital area was empty and I was just there by myself. And I- So she was already at the hospital? By that time. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when the doctor came out and talked to me, yeah, they're about to go operate.

They had to open up her skull, they removed 40% of her skull. And I was just, they were basically like, you need to go back, you need to go home and rest. You're in this for a long haul. And that's when I realized, I was like, oh, life is never going to be the same. And in that moment, I experienced loss one way or the other, whether or not she passed away, or she just, I've lost a person I know.

She's going gonna be a different person so there was loss and that was excruciating but without going too much detail about everything that happened fortunately she came she opened her eyes and she was she was her and that was a victory and all of a sudden there's like these like, you're going from like the lowest of lows to then like the smallest things being the highest highs. So you could experience this insane amount of joy. Like, I don't know what I mean by joy, I mean like, no award, no competition, no like achievement could compare to the moment when she said her own name.

And I knew that it was her. That was like, wow, like that's just the best feeling in the world. And then it was like- Are these tears of joy? Oh, yeah, just like, just like so world and then it was like are these tears of joy? Oh, yeah I just like just like so thankful, you know so much gratitude Yeah, the moment when she stood up for the first time to go to the bathroom like it was like Joy, just like victory joy like oh my gosh, this is incredible

The moment that she started laughing because her face was swelled up where she looked like the guy from that she started laughing because her face was swelled up where she looked like the guy from Goonies, you know, and she's laughing about it. And I'm just like, that amount of joy that we experienced. That's why we always talked about like the biggest highs and the biggest lows because of course it's a low but my god did we experience these moments of grace and victory and joy. And then it was difficult too because then it's like, okay, now can she do what she did before? Can she get back to that place?

And you know, we've been on this crazy journey. But I've always been so impressed with her because she never really shed a tear. She did eventually. But that first couple weeks, she never felt sorry for herself. She never was like, oh no, why did this happen to me? And I can't believe this. And she's looking at herself in the mirror

and she's missing half her skull. Like her whole head, the shape of her head is like, you know, a Salvador Dali painting. Like it's like concaved and then her head shaved and there it's not even her you know but she didn't she was like it is what it is that's what she just kept saying that she goes it is what it is what I'm gonna do about it like this is what happened and here I am so for me what I really learned from her in those moments I was so impressed was her ability to surrender. She was just like, this is what it is.

I can't do anything about it. And that's just like, the only thing I can do is try to have, do what I can do. Do what I can do. And that's, what am I gonna focus on? Am I gonna focus on, oh, I can't do this. Oh, I look like this. Am I gonna focus on these things? Or I'm gonna focus on? Am I gonna focus on, oh, I can't do this, oh, I look like this, am I gonna focus on these things,

or am I gonna focus on the nurse smiling at me, am I gonna focus on watching Home Alone 45 times on repeat on the TV that they have in there, am I gonna focus on the fact that my husband's by my side and that my, there's so much more to be thankful for, and she didn't just like read the books and listen to things. She just was it. She just was living it I don't have a person when i'm like, let me go listen to something and then like get myself into state or like let me go like read something and then I can get myself there and

She was just living it and I was so impressed. She um people like thank you so you're amazing for being there for her and I'm like me being there for her. And I'm like, me being there for her? I was like, she was there for us. She was there for us. Because when we walk out of that room, we were a mess. But every time we walked in there, she would just look, just kind of smile. And she would just give us so much strength.

God, I wish I... I pray that in my hardest moments, I have the capabilities that you just expressed about your wife. Yeah. She's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm just like, I'm in awe of her.

And yeah, and we're just beyond thankful because you know, we also understand we were in the ICU and we saw a lot of people Coming in and out. Yeah, right and you know weren't weren't you know fortunate and the brain is so It's wild wild. It's really unbelievable. Yeah, and it's unbelievable too. And by the way going back to dance The doctors were like dude There's no way she's gonna be dancing within a year and hey, it was like I'm gonna do that in a couple weeks And they're like no like sit down, you know but her recovery was so impressive and the doctors were so in awe and so shocked and I

Really? I really believe that the athleticism and her dancing was a big factor in that. Yeah, I would completely co-sign that. And thank you for sharing. It's like one of the hardest moments you've probably ever been through. And to celebrate her ability to be there for you and you to be there for her.

And underneath the surface, you are eloquently describing the three C's as it comes to the research around hardiness and resilience. And according to research that people are resilient, those that are the most resilient, they focus on controlling what they can control. It sounds like it was Haley being the best Haley she can be. Like it is what it is and I'm going to, I'm not gonna like, I'm not gonna go back,

I'm gonna just keep doing the way I do my life, which is I'm gonna try to be my best, control the things that are in your control. Like really commit to staying in the fight, you know, and not like pulling out of it, woe is me, whatever. So a full commitment when it's hard. And then seeing this thing as a challenge,

more so than even a setback. It's like, okay, what's the challenge in here? What do I need to learn? What do I need to, I'm gonna figure it out. So it sounds like she did all three of those, like, you know, organically. Yeah, yeah. And that, again, that was so impressive,

that I could, it was, she just was, I would come in like, okay, baby, this is what we're gonna do. And she goes, yeah, I know. Yeah, I got you. I got it. I got this. Like I, I'm, she was, I would come in with game plans and stuff, and she's like, yeah, I got it.

Yeah, I love that. It was pretty impressive. Yeah. I just want to say thank you for how you brought yourself forward in this conversation. There's a clarity and a spark. There's a knowing that you come from that only comes from deep work.

And so it's cool, it's recognized. And that deep work is on your craft and on yourself. And I 100% see the genius of creativity that others, Nastya, we didn't get to Nastya, like her question is really about like, how do you get through the judgment piece? But I do think we've answered it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Kachava. For me, the rhythm of my day, it

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kachava. Go to kachava.com and use the code findingmastery for 15% off your next order. That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A. Kachava.com and then use the code findingmastery for 15% off. What, can I share one thing about Nastia real fast? Yeah. Just that it was my favorite moment

and this wasn't on camera, but it's a moment that I love sharing about her. Nastia Lukin's, it's one of my favorite moment and this wasn't on camera, but it's a moment that I love sharing about her. Nastya Lukin, it's one of my favorite all time moments actually. Nastya, for those that don't know, gold medalist, 2008 Beijing Games, five time medalist, Olympic medalist, shifted the paradigm of sport

because her body type was different than the... So her and Misty have kind of this similar type of narrative about who they are and what they've done. So anyways, Nasty is an Olympic legend. Yeah, Nasty Lukin. And I asked her, I sat there and I said, because here's the truth was that she... I remember the media saying like,

oh, she had this like resting RBF or something like that where she had this like focused face or she had this like look on her or whatever it was. And she's like, that's just my focused face. And I was just trying to get to know her a little bit more on a deeper level, halfway through the season. I was trying to unlock something.

I was trying to unlock a performance aspect of her. And I just asked her, I said, hey, is your name Nastia and she goes no No, no, no, she goes my name is actually Anastasia and I was like, oh Anastasia that's so soft. It was so softer. I was like, well, when did Nastia come into this and she goes when I started gymnastics I was like, well, how old was that? She goes why was about six years old? And I was like, oh I was like, well, how old was that? And she goes, well, I was about six years old. And I was like, oh. I was like, well, let's talk about Anastasia.

Let's talk about before you did gymnastics. Let's talk about before you were six. And let's talk about Anastasia. And I'm not even kidding you, man. Dude, it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. Her whole face just went, it softened and it changed. She just morphed before my eyes into Anastasia. And I was like, whoa.

I feel like I'm, you're just, you're different. You are different instantly. And she goes, I never really thought about that girl. Kind of like what we did before. Totally. And from that moment on, I only called her Anastasia. I'd say, Anastasia, let's go over here. Anastasia, let's go over here. Anastasia. And so she would come over and she just had this like joy and then the softness to her. And because Nastia was the competitor, she was like, I gotta

get this shit done, you know? And Anastasia was this little girl that like wanted to dance and wanted to perform and there was such an amazing shift in her. And for me it was one of those cool moments where just acknowledging and diving a little bit deeper into somebody's history and then to literally witness her morph into a different human being before my eyes was like the wildest thing. I was honestly like, where are the cameras? I was like, you guys missed the best, most incredible thing ever.

But we shared a really special bond, you know, in that moment and it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. I just love, I love that story because again, it goes into the psychology, the emotion, and not just the mechanics of dance. There's so much more to it and and performance in any walk of life. As you're describing that, I'm like,

it must be amazing and terrifying to be coached by you. And I say that with the highest regard. Amazing because you're really trying to understand how to co-create something. And you also understand that to do that beautiful bouquet thing that we were talking about earlier, to create that thing is going to need some stretching. There's going to be something that is going to need to be beyond what feels safe. And I feel like because you care about the relationship

and you're really invested in helping unlock that, being in service, that you would create the right condition for people to take that step into the messy unknown and to do it publicly and to do it first privately with you and then publicly in front of others. And even me thinking about being coached by you, I can feel my heart rate elevate. So I think you've got a unique skill in doing that.

So bravo, really cool. Thank you, Matt. Wait, before we go, Ovation. Yeah. Tell me about Ovation. You know, we were talking about serving, talking about coaching, teaching. Ovation is a convention, competition that my sister and I have

created where it's just that, you know, we want to create an event where you can come and compete at a high level in any different type of genre of dance, whether it be like Latin and ballroom, jazz, contemporary, hip-hop, where you can like learn from incredible coaches. And we don't, I don't really do these, you know what I mean? But this one I'm very excited about because we want to make it such a high level and truly an experience and of course the competition as well. And it's going to be seven events. There's seven of them across the countries from like Chicago, New York, LA, Dallas,

Miami, Utah, California, Arizona. It's an incredible dance experience, you know? So if you're a dancer for studios, for us as well, it's about elevating dancers to give them opportunities to where they have more opportunities, but also are on the same level as athletes. So it's gonna be a three day weekend. The first day is actually gonna be a big show where it's like, they can be open to the public,

anybody can come watch, it's gonna be like an amazing production show. So we can come and watch and just be entertained and be like wow this is tough. You and your friends are dancing. Myself. Beautiful choreography. Amazing dancers, choreographers, music, lights, the whole thing, the whole shabam.

And then the next day is gonna be lessons from the best coaches in the country. What makes this one special is that this is a sort of a hybrid where you can take, like a dance studio can take their contemporary jazz piece that they take to all the other conventions and competitions. They can compete that at ovation. But what we also have is the ballroom world.

Because the ballroom and Latin world is its own thing, and then the convention space is its own thing too. So are you pulling those two together? We're literally bringing those two together. Yeah, so ovation, I see what, this is great. This is like you. Literally the O. The O and the two halves.

So that's what we're doing, we're bringing those two together, and it's this hybrid experience where you can kind of pick your own experience essentially. But yeah, we're bringing them together because the thing that's amazing too is the Baltimore Latin world has gotten so much bigger and has grown in the popularity and also- I think social media has helped.

Absolutely. Yeah, because they're phenomenal movers and honestly, dancing the stars like it's the largest dance show. Yeah. You guys were the first mover. Yeah. Forty six countries and it's it's extraordinary. So yeah. So Ovation is going to be it's a new it's a new adventure. And our plan is to do seven this year, December is Chicago and then 2026,

May, like January, February, March, May is sort of like the window of the other dates. Where do you want us to follow? Is it you on social? Is it.com? Yeah, OvationDanceTour.com is where you can get all the information about it. And of course, Ovation Dance dance, you know, on Instagram.

But yeah, man, it's exciting. We have plans to go international. We gotta find a way to dovetail, like to help them kind of invest in the mental skills, like a crash course on mental skills for these competitors. Yes. Yeah, like, you know, because you can do a lot of real, you know, advancement in somebody's ability to express

with just unlocking how to be calm, just how to speak to themselves. My man, my man. No, I don't know why I say that, my man. That's honestly is exactly what we wanna do. Because again, there's been the classes, the competition, but listen, I got burned out. When I was like 15, 16 years old, I was like,

oh, I'm done, I can't do this anymore. I'm like, I'm tapped out, I'm done with dance. And you see that a lot. You see a lot of young dancers burning out really young because it's just a lot. And there's no- Well, it's about chasing the external and that's very dangerous

because you're not in control of it. One of the simple little practices I do with professional athletes and even like my son and when I'm helping out his team, is it's a simple, simple little practice that maybe you can pass this forward, is before every practice, one to three goals that are 100% under your control.

Whether it's an NFL athlete, you go out on Sunday, playing in front of whatever millions, hey man, what are your three goals? Oh, you know my three, bang, bang, bang. And they're all 100% under that person's control. So it puts the athlete, the mover, back in a position of power. And so, that's the simplest little thing.

It's not winning. But the simple things are the things that are needed because you can apply them. Yeah, right. And there's not like a big drag on something like that. No, you're like, oh gosh, I have to do this thing. It's like, oh no, I can do this. Wait, hold on, what are you in control of?

What is the, kind of where are you pointing? What does success look like? Is like what those three goals stand for. Yeah, so Derek, I just have to say, like this has been a real treat, a joy. Thank you so much for how you share and what you've shared I hope that it's been equally as rewarding as you and I do hope that we celebrate your genius because it's that I feel Like that's part of my role here

And so I hope it's come forward for you in just the right way that I'm feeling it I just really grateful to be able to meet you this way. Thank you so much, man. The pleasure is all mine. Thank you I'm just really grateful to be able to meet you this way a relationship with a narcissist, should you stay or should you leave? Join us on Wednesday, July 30th, 9 a.m. Pacific for this revelatory conversation. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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