Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Misty Copeland on The Art of Resilience — Lessons from a Barrier-Breaking Ballet Dancer

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Today, we've got a really special conversation for you.Our guest today is a real trailblazer… A boundary breaker in the world of ballet… An incredibly special human… She went from living in motel rooms to performing on the world’s biggest stages… She is the legendary Misty Copeland.Misty’s journey from living in motel rooms to becoming the first African American female principal dancer at the American Ballet Theatre is nothing short of inspiring.Misty started ballet at the late age of thirteen and rose to perform lead roles in iconic productions like Swan Lake and Romeo and Juliet. During her meteoric rise, she was also featured on the covers of Time, ESSENCE, and Women's Health. Misty didn’t just enter the ballet world; she transformed it, merging classical finesse with her powerful narrative. She has not only shattered ceilings but also redefined what safety and success look like in the arts.Misty’s influence extends well beyond dance, collaborating with artists like Taylor Swift, Camila Cabello and H.E.R, and authoring several New York Times bestsellers. Her work through the Misty Copeland Foundation continues to inspire a new generation to embrace ballet and find their voice in the arts.In today’s episode, Misty will share insights into the pivotal experiences that shaped her, her approach to handling the pressures of her field, and how she crafts her breathtaking performances that tell stories which resonate with so many._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Fight. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade in training a high-performance psychologist. Today, we've got something really special for you. We were in New York City recently and got the chance to sit down with a real trailblazer, a person who is really, really special. She's a boundary breaker, and she did it in the world of ballet first. The legendary Misty Copeland. Misty's journey from living in motel rooms to becoming the first African-American female principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater is nothing short of inspiring. Misty

started ballet at the late age of 13 and rose to perform lead roles in iconic productions like Swan Lake and Romeo and Juliet. During her meteoric rise, she was also featured on the covers of Time, Essence, and Women's Health. Misty didn't just enter the ballet world. She transformed it. And I do not say that lightly, merging classical finesse with her powerful narrative. She has not only shattered ceilings, but she's also redefined what safety and success looks like in the arts. That is a radical statement. So many of us needed that at some age in our lives, and she's doing it in such a radically

graceful way. Misty's influence extends well beyond dance, collaborating with artists like Taylor Swift, Camila Cabello, her, and authoring several New York Times bestsellers. Her work through the Misty Copeland Foundation continues to inspire a new generation to embrace ballet and find their voice in the arts. In today's episode, Misty will share insights into the pivotal experiences that shaped her, her approach to handling the pressures of her field, and how she crafts her breathtaking performances that tell stories which resonate with so many of us. So without further ado, let's dive into this deeply inspiring conversation with the legend,

Misty Copeland. Misty, this is such an honor to have this conversation with you. And we're here in New York City. The city is alive and you've been here for a long time making a difference in the world of artistry and creativity using ballet as your medium. And I just, I can't wait to better understand like how you work from the inside out. Thank you. I'm excited. So it's an honor to sit and have this conversation. Thank you. It's a long time coming. It's an honor to sit here with you as well. Thank you for the blurb that you gave.

Oh my gosh, of course. It was so special to feel your words and the contribution you made is meaningful. Let's start at the beginning. Before the age of 13, can you explain what it was like growing up and what it was like in your home? Let's start there. Yeah. So I'm the fourth child from my parents. I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. I don't remember much. We left Kansas when I was just two years old.

But I know that my father played basketball. He was very athletic. My mom was super athletic and into sports. She was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs. So it was like a crazy sport family household. So my mom ended up divorcing my father and she took me and my siblings to Los Angeles.

So I was just two years old. So from that moment, that was how my life would be. It would be picking up, moving, instability, not really having a stable home. I would say probably until the age of maybe eight was the first time we lived in a house. So my mother would marry two more times and add two more children into the family. So I'm a middle child and I'm already naturally introverted. And so the circumstances I grew up in definitely shaped me even more. I could easily hide between my siblings who were all very loud and want to be the center of attention.

I was the opposite. It's like I just wanted to just exist. And I was just in survival mode and didn't want to be seen or heard. And music became this kind of saving grace for me. Music almost, you know, I would sit, I remember, you know, with, with cassette tape and you pull out the, the jacket or whatever, and you could read the lyrics. I remember. Of course I remember. So that, you know, connecting with lyrics, like it kind of became my voice in a way.

What was the style of music? R&B and soul. And it was at seven, seven, eight, like turning eight, I think that Mariah Carey's debut album came out. And it was the first time I felt the importance of representation and the importance of being able to see yourself through someone else. And, you know, she was biracial and successful and talented and her music made me want to create movement. And it was the very first time that I really had that urge. So I started choreographing at that age. And it was also at that time, it was the first time that we were living in a house. It was when we moved to San Pedro, which is what I considered my home, where I eventually would, you know, grow up there and go

to middle school and high school there. But it was the first time I felt this sense of stability internally. Okay. So zero to seven, there was a lot of change. There was instability in, and the instability was the family structure. And then marked by, you finally had a place that you could call home. Okay. And it was right around that same time that you found a music that you could identify with and a person that you could identify with. And you purposely use the word now representation. And at that time what did

it mean and feel like to you when you saw somebody that was inspiring and that you could identify with i just i literally felt like i was looking in a mirror i felt seen um i felt inspired and that I could see this like flicker of hope for a future that was beyond my circumstances. Looking back now, what was the impact that that early childhood experiences had on you? The instability and maybe the not being seen up into age seven or eight. How did that impact this tremendous ability that you have to be able to express your body in a world-class way to some of the most beautiful music on the planet? It had a huge impact. I mean, I think that I so easily fit in and transitioned into the ballet culture and world because I felt most at home, most comfortable, most in control when I was expressing

myself through movement. It was a terrifying thing to think about using my voice or even connecting with what was happening inside of me to be able to understand how to verbalize it. But it became so natural to me just to be able to express that through movement. It was what I would do. You know, there was a lot of abuse in my household. My mother married many times and movement became this escape for me. Wherever it was we were living, I would find a space and I would kind of just go into this other world. Beethoven talks about his raptus and it was a place that he would go to, and it was an

internal place, this creative genius place that he would go to to listen for the music. And a raptus is this idea that I'm just in rapture, I'm completely consumed with an activity. Is that something that you recognize as well? 100%. What is that something that you recognize as well? A hundred percent. What is that like for you? Ah, it's everything around me just goes away. All of the worries, all of the concerns. You know, when people often, I guess it's a stereotype or maybe it's a lot of people's experience, but when they go into a ballet setting, you feel tense and there's so much, you know, it's this discipline and expectation of, you know,

perfecting. And it was the opposite for me. It was like everything released in my body. And I felt this, you know, I don't know, abandonment, I guess, to the art form. It was the first time in my life that I felt safe in an environment where I could completely let go and create. And that's how I've always felt, whether it was in the studio or on a stage. It feels, it seems so counterintuitive to, you know, someone who's so shy and doesn't want to be in the spotlight to then end up in a performing career where I'm dancing for thousands of people. But it's always been this safe space where I could be myself and express myself in a way that worked for me. And, you know, no one could touch me.

I was just up there on my own and the audience had to just, you know, take it or leave it. Wow. Okay. There's so much here. Let me start with the idea that nobody could touch me is that a physical thing you're talking about or is that emotional i think it's both it is both yeah and was that born out of like was that freedom born out of a fear of violence and or emotional abuse or am i making that no it No, it's definitely both of those things. You know, just being able to feel this, I'm going to say it again and again, but the sense of control. And I feel like I never had that my entire childhood, whether it was, you know,

were we going to have food on the table? Where are we going to live? Are we going to have a roof over our heads? Whose home we were going to be in that I didn't know what man was going to come into our lives that my mother would bring in the physical, the emotional abuse, all of those things. And there was a sense of control and that I was an individual. I wasn't sharing anything with my five siblings. It was all mine and it was all me that I was creating. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms,

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slash deal for two full months for free terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day.

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you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Amazing. So when you, and we're specifically talking about ballet at this moment. Okay. So you were not exposed to ballet until the age of 13. Okay. When you first were exposed to ballet, you had teachers is that it's pretty tough. It's pretty rough for these pretty girls in little boxes, as the famous book quote. And so you didn't have that.

You had something different. You felt safe and at home and you felt seen. What were you seen for? I think I was seen for a talent that I didn't know that I had. I never felt like I had someone who believed in me and believed that I could be against something more than my circumstances. And it wasn't until I met, well, the drill team coach, because I auditioned for drill team when I was like 12 and a half. And that's where I was introduced to ballet. And then at 13, my first ballet teacher, Cynthia Bradley, it was the first time that I felt like someone

believed in me and someone saw something more for me. And I think that gave me even more confidence to dive in deeper into this thing I was already interested in. Do you remember that first moment when you were seen, maybe for one of the first times or at least the first significant time that you remember? So vividly, all of the times I remember. I remember auditioning for the drill team. I remember when I decided I wanted to do it and I told my mom and my sister and they were like, what are you talking about? Like, why would you think you could do this? You're so introverted. And I was like, I just, I just know I can. But I'm not going to just audition for the drill team. I'm going to audition for the position of captain. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. This is so good. Okay. Pause that question I just asked and come, let's go right into this. I knew I could. The elders said, what are you thinking? I think this is you still. So that 12 year old that said, no, I have an idea. There's something I want to explore to try out to do. The world, the elders at that point said, you're off your rocker. This is not

going to be a fit. What makes you think that you could do something like that? Before that you had that moment of confrontation with your mom, what gave you this inner ability to say, that is something I'm going to do? It could be innocence. It could be like, I want to leave it completely open, but what was that like? Because imagine if the world could have that.

So maybe we can just open it up and hear how you worked from that place. You know, everyone communicates in a different way. And I feel like I was so underdeveloped as a young girl when it came to my verbal skills and social skills. But there was just something that clicked in me when I heard music and when my body was moving. I felt intelligent. I felt beautiful I felt strong I felt confident so it was so innate at that point I didn't even need someone to tell me that I was all of those things I just felt it and I couldn't help but try to do something with it. Was there some sort of sport before?

No. Or was it like you were? Zero, nothing. There's nothing. I did nothing. So then help me bridge this idea that I felt something. You're talking about physical intelligence, which is a real form of intelligence. We talk about emotional intelligence, physical intelligence, or actually general intelligence, musical intelligence. But what you're talking intelligence, physical intelligence, or actually general intelligence, musical intelligence.

But what you're talking about is physical intelligence. I know how to connect and I feel strong and powerful in this way. Okay. So what were the activities that you were doing if there was a nothing for you to have that awakening? I mean, I don't even know. I was at recess. I would go on the monkey bars. I was really drawn to gymnastics when the Olympics would happen. And I remember specifically drawn to the

floor exercises because in my mind now, it's the closest thing that I'd ever seen to classical dance and that kind of lyrical movement. And I would go and try and mimic and imitate these, you know, I taught myself to do backbend walkovers and handstands and splits and, but there was just something I was connected to with it. But outside of me just teaching myself these things, there was nothing. I wasn't a part of any sports or anything like that. And then you had a first coach that must have done something to elicit. And you said, I felt seen. So first you had that feeling. There was a connection there. And then secondly, you were in an environment in that moment that somebody saw something special. And then in between there was the struggle where the world

at that point was saying no no no and that theme will come up over and over again in your life but you were a fighter would you say that yeah a fighter is the word you use yes okay and then so now help to help to teach me what that person did to help you feel seen. From the question you asked before, the first time I felt that was, her name is Elizabeth Cantine and she was the coach of the drill team. And I came in and I auditioned. I'd choreographed my own solo to George Michael's, I Want Your Sex.

Why? Why? That's what everyone wanted. Yeah, right. That's perfect. So I remember sitting in front of- That was the song of the time. We're both dating ourselves here. It's perfect. Yeah. Great. So funny to think back on that. I auditioned in front of this panel of judges and she was one of them. And halfway through, this was the first time I remember performing in front of people like this. Wait, you didn't have coaching? You didn't have training? No, I just made- You said, I'm going to go do this. Yeah. I choreographed this whole solo to the

song. And halfway through, I forgot the choreography. And I remember running out of the room, like crying. And I remember her coming over to me and pulling me back in and encouraging me and saying, like, start again. There's no pressure. And I did it. And it was the first time that I felt like, wow, like, it's okay to make a mistake and that there's a room to grow. And if someone's there that believes in you and nurtures you, like there's so much possibility. What a hero.

And it was amazing. And I remember that so vividly. And then I remember getting the call that I had made captain and that was just like, and everyone was like, what? I think even the girls that ended up on the drill team with me were like, we don't understand.

Like you're not in any dance classes. We're all in these classes and you're not. And I was like four foot nothing. And so I was like the smallest one as well. And I'm like screaming up at all of them. It was a wild transition in my life. Who would imagine that Misty Copeland would have, on the first audition, first dance moment,

would have blanked out and run off stage. And in that moment moment the choice was to leave not to stand and and do some I don't know there's a thousand different options that people could have had memo but you left and do you remember that moment what was happening for you yeah in your mind yeah and can you go back to that for just a moment yeah I mean I think there was a sense of um like everyone's right like maybe you're not I thought you were gonna go these things right because you had the message that I should have listened to that okay let me not lay any talk track over it what was the message that you were hearing yeah I mean I think that

it was um you're not good enough or you shouldn't be auditioning for this. You're not ready. You don't have the training, you know, all of those things. And that would come up again in your life at some point? Or did it extinguish itself there? It would come up much later, much later after I'd already become a professional. Interesting. later, much later after I'd already become a professional. Interesting that, so you had this incredible freedom arc for a long time. And then once you hit the professional ranks, that thing came up. Let's pause that. We'll come back to that. Okay. So here you are drill team

captain. And then you probably started taking classes at some point. Well, I would say, I don't know, a month or so into the drill team, Elizabeth Cantine, the coach, she was like, you really have an extraordinary talent. She was kind of teaching a little bit of ballet in our practices. I remember learning like a PK turn and, you know, these like kind of basic moves, but not so basic. I mean, I'd never even been at a ballet bar and learned what you begin with. But she saw that I could do these things. I could see her and really just emulate what she was doing. And so she said, I think you should take these ballet classes. And I was not interested. I was like, what? I'm dancing to George Michael and Mariah Carey,

and I'm finally on stage. Why would I do this thing called ballet? So she really pushed me into doing it. I was already a member of the Boys and Girls Club. So there was a local ballet teacher that was offering free ballet classes there and looking for more diverse students to bring into her school. And I literally was forced into taking this class on the basketball court. And that's where it all began with Cynthia Bradley there on the court. Okay. And so in that moment, was it like, oh, this feels good or like, wait, this is hard. This is like, this is something different. Not hard. It was, I think I was intimidated. I wasn't in an atmosphere that

felt, didn't feel natural. I mean, I was in my gym clothes and socks on a basketball court with all these other like misfits. We were all like trying to do ballet and, you know, in classical music I'd never heard before. And it wasn't until my teacher brought me into her school on full scholarship. And it wasn't until I was in an actual ballet studio with the mirrors and the bars, I was given ballet slippers and tights, a leotard. From that first class, I knew immediately like it all clicked. And I felt at home. I felt safe. I was confident. And it never felt hard to me. And I don't mean that it was easy.

I was just so eager to learn. I was so interested in it. And I was so eager that I just soaked up as much as I could on the daily and couldn't wait to return the next day. What did your family think at that point? I think they just thought it was, you know, another extracurricular activity. It was like drill team. There wasn't much interest and not that there wasn't support, but I don't think they took it seriously or understood

where it could take it. Did you have a sense at that point? No. I don't think I really understood, but I knew that there was no way I could go another day without doing it. That is a radical insight. I didn't have a vision of where this could go, but I knew I needed to do more of it today because I felt at home, I felt safe, and I liked how I connected to myself. Okay. Fast forward to 17, age 17. Oh, wait, before we get there, how did you afford ballet? It's typically a very expensive sport. And you referenced earlier that I didn't know where food was coming from. But did things change at some point? No. So we were in the lowest point of our lives, I would say, like my family at 13, when I started ballet. We were living in a motel, me and my five siblings in one room. And it was really, really difficult. All of my training has been on scholarship.

Wait, you were in a hotel? A motel. A motel. Yes. Five siblings in one, like what I would imagine. One room. Yes. One bed.

Yes. Five siblings. Yes. Where were the parents? It was just my mom. So she would sleep in the bed and we all slept on the floor. And this was on and off for years that we were kind of just bouncing around from motel to motel. And when I started dancing, my teacher, I mean, I was also so introverted because I didn't want anyone to know about my home life always. So is it introverted or private?

So introverted is like I gather energy from observing, from thinking, from listening. Yes. And that's how I get energized. An extrovert, I gather energy from talking and being around people. And there's a different type of energy generation. Yeah. So it is introversion. Absolutely introvert.

And this was a fear-based privacy. Yes. Right? Like, I don't want people to see this part of me. Right. But I did like how people were able to connect and see this other part of me, this expressive part of me. Okay.

That's like, of course, you've heard the phrase two selves. And did you work through that at a young age? Like I have this part of me that I don't want anyone to see, but I have this other part that I'm, okay. Yes. How did that shape you looking back now? How did you use them? So many things I've experienced, especially in my young life.

It sounds crazy, but I feel like our attributes that you need to be a ballerina, you know, this way of being able to become a character, you know, pull from experiences in your life and kind of just turn it on or turn it off in an instance. And I've been doing that my whole life, you know, in these different environments that I've been in to protect myself, to feel safe. And, you know, once I entered the ballet world, I had already seen so much and experienced trauma. So when I entered the ballet world, I was like, oh, this is a piece of cake. I can handle this. Most people were like, this is a lot to take on.

And it was exciting. It really does speak volumes to how much trauma there was in your life where ballet, which is considered one of the hardest disciplined training environments in youth sports, was safe, was a place that you would relish. Post-traumatic stress and post-traumatic growth. We don't talk about post-traumatic growth enough, but the idea there's um just because you go through trauma does not mean that you have a stress disorder at some point did you go through a stress disorder or what did you constantly navigate to where you were using it in a way to help you be big and find joy and happiness?

Or did you find yourself in the stress response, which is a hypervigilance, a chronic fear that I could be traumatized again? So let me make sure that I'm on high alert and I avoid places that are potentially exposing or vulnerable. Imagine a car crash. If somebody had post-traumatic and a car crash, like I'm not going around those types of corners anymore. I'm not getting in that red car again,

or whatever it might be. So can you talk about that difference? Because it doesn't show up in your life now as trauma, but it certainly was at one time. I think when it comes to my career or my training, I was navigating and it seemed to help me in a way. When it came to my career or you know my training i was navigating and and it seemed to help me in a way uh when it came to my personal life outside there was that traumatic stress for sure oh so there was the there's definitely a separation even to this day yeah approaching you know changes in my life at this point at 41 years old there are things i'm like oh wow i didn't realize i still you know was protecting myself in a way. But when it comes to being on stage and being in the ballet world, I never felt that stress at all.

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at fel at Felix gray.com for 20% off. This is actually quite new to the theory is that you had a place that you could relish ballet. And in that you were able to build a whole set of psychological and emotional and social skills. So that place as a safe haven,

as a, this is not new to the theory, but you were able to do it in such an extraordinary way because that place happened to match your genius, which is your physical intelligence. Okay. I mean, that is a recipe, I think for any young child that is really up against it is if you've got a safe haven and a place that you can be at home. Right. Okay. So it's not only the form, but it was the adults in the room that helped create that space for you. Right. Okay.

All right. So now around 17, you haven't graduated high school and you are thrust into an opportunity to come to New York. So help me understand, like, were you aware of the biases in the world of ballet at that time? Or was there like, listen, I love how this, I'm going to go into a world where there isn't representation like me. I was not aware. As you said, I was able to thrive because I had adults around me in that environment as a 13-year-old in the ballet studio. My ballet teacher, Cynthia, she was really aware and conscious of protecting me from the realities of the ballet world. I wonder if she would see you and say, she's so good.

You know, there's, there's nobody like her. Or would she, she say, she is so good. She has so much potential. She's going to change the world. Yes, that. It was that. So she, she was a fighter too. I thought she was crazy.

You did? Yes. I mean, I remember when I, I mean, the first time I took a class with her on the basketball court, she told me I was a prodigy, which I didn't really understand, comprehend what that meant. She invited me to live with her and her family when she found out I was living in a motel and it was too much for me to travel back and forth. I remember within the first couple of months of living with her, she would say to me were you're going to change ballet you're going to eat with kings and queens and I'm just like wow this lady this lady's off her rocker but she's amazing and she loves me and she's you know giving me so much but she always saw that for me but she protected me from a lot of things that I would learn as an adult that were happening in that studio that she, you know, she was like, you started so late. You have so much training to

catch up on. You can't have these outside distractions. And so what were those things that she, there was a lot of racial things that were going on. I mean, I remember her telling me again, as an adult, that there were a lot of students, you know, who had parents that were giving a lot of money. They sat on the board. And when I came in and was given the lead, you know, in these ballets after eight months of dancing, and they were saying really terrible things, you know, the fact that I was a black girl and why am I getting these opportunities? And they were leaving, taking their money, leaving the school. And I didn't know about any of these things that were going on. What a gift.

It was amazing. What a protector. Really. I mean, I could completely be present and focused on the training and again, not have these outside distractions. As a mom, what were some of the statements that were said to you that you're going to play back to your kids? I think that, I think it's important, you know, for my son to really understand who he is in this world, you know, as a black boy. And, and I think that there's, there was this balance because it

wasn't like I was completely unaware that I was a black girl in this world and, you know, and naive. My mother raised me with this very strong and clear understanding that even though you're biracial, you are a black woman in society and that's how you're going to be treated. So I came in already with, I think, this sense of self and identity as a black girl, you know, but then was protected. So I think that, you know, it's important for me to instill that into my son so that there is an education and understanding of who he is. It's important because you didn't look around and say, oh, I'm just like everyone here. You said, no, there's something different about me, but I love how I feel and I'm going to keep coming back.

Strong sense of self. So you're going to help create that. And do you have one or two or three ways that you could maybe share with me how I can help others do that as well? I think it's, you know, for me and my husband, it's really empowering him to appreciate who he is, whether it's saying, you know, your beautiful brown skin or surrounding him with a diverse group of children who come from different backgrounds or people that he can connect with and relate to that he can see himself through um that to me i feel will be empowering for him yeah so you'll see him yeah and then you'll it sounds like what you'll do is create

a community. It's, you're playing the exact beautiful notes that you had earlier without the drama. One of the world's best in basketball, I saw him maybe five years after he had retired. I said, how are you? So I'm great. And I said, how are the kids? He said, they're good. They're really good. And is Junior still playing ball? Yeah, he's playing basketball. I said, how are the kids? He said, they're good. They're really good. And is Junior still playing ball? Yeah, he's playing basketball. I said, how's it going? You know, like as a dad and, you know,

and he says, you know, he's got the best shoes, the best coaches. He goes to the best camps. He's got me as his dad. But I can't give him the one thing that I had, which was nothing and so your child will have much yeah and your child will not have the same upbringing that you had right and how will you help your son at this this phase be resilient and be a fighter and find his raptus where he can go into a place and express his genius from that place.

Like, how will you create and help create that fighter? Because you are that. And it showed up on stage for a long time. And it actually showed up probably, you probably didn't fight on stage. You probably had to do all the fighting. Leading up to. All the struggle, right? And then there was freedom on stage.

Right. Maybe. So we'll get to that. But how do you think you'll help your son be resilient, be a fighter, have that competitiveness? You know, my husband and I have had this conversation. We've been together for 20 years and we've had this conversation a lot.

And I always thought I was going to be a strict parent that was going to instill those things in him so that he would have that resilience and not give him everything or give him the answers. And not that I'm doing that now, but I'm definitely not what I thought I was going to be. My husband is more of that. But it's something that we're constantly talking about and navigating our way through is that I don't want to give him all the answers. He has to figure these things out for himself. I want to listen to him. I didn't

introduce him to ballet in the beginning. There's nothing in my house that's ballet. There's one small picture in a corner in my closet, like dressing room area of a ballerina bowing. And he's been drawn to it since, you know, since I can remember, since he was a couple of months old. And so it finally got to a point where he was like begging me to show him what this thing was. So I finally was like, okay, I guess I'm going to show him a video of Swan Lake. And he watches full-length ballets now. He danced like he's drawn to it. So I want to be able to nurture things that he's naturally drawn to.

Of course, support and guide him in different ways, but not force him into anything. But listen to him and see him and not just kind of give him things. You had years of being seen and years of being unseen. And so you know the difference. And I imagine you're pretty good at seeing other people. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So this won't be too hard for you, for your son.

No. What gets in the way of you being your best? And let's start as a mom and then then let's move to your best on stage. We've talked about this a lot. I mean, read your book, and there it is. I think it's kind of this distraction of other people's opinions, other people's views and words that might seep in and for me I think it's you know it's initially I think it was from like critics um you know bloggers or you know social media things

like that at a point in my career and right now you know it's not it's being in a space that's not my safe space which is the stage or the studio at this point in my life you know it's being in a space that's not my safe space, which is the stage or the studio at this point in my life. You know, it's being in boardrooms. It's being in spaces where I'm, you know, speaking to lots of people. So it looks very different. And so it's almost like I have to retrain myself in a way. Okay, so let's do that. So how long were you considered one of the

best in the world, if not the best in the world? Like how long was that run? I have no idea. I really don't. I mean, so I was promoted to principal dancer in 2015 at the age of 32, which is considered very late. And so I think I was a principal dancer for five years before the pandemic hit, which is very short. But my career as a whole has been almost 25 years with American Ballet Theater. So I'm not really sure how to gauge when people's opinions of these things happened. How did you navigate the critics and specifically what was being said? What was the main critique that you're experiencing? I would say early on in my career, you know, I would read reviews and at that point I feel like I was taking as much, you know,

I was absorbing as much as I could. Like I was craving that feedback because I wanted to be better. And so I remember early on in my career, I would get a lot of criticism about my port de bras, which means the carriage of the arms. So the way I was holding my hands or using the flow of my arms in connection with the rest of my body. remember thinking okay well what am i going to do to improve this rather than oh they don't know what they're talking about or that you know i'm offended i was i was trying to you know if i read something enough times and i was like that must be something that people are seeing and i and i and i and i want to improve um but i would say that later in my career, uh, you know, there was a point where the pressures were so big. These articles that were being written, this was right before my promotion in 2015, is Misty deserving of being promoted to principal dancer? Will she only be promoted because she's black? Does she really have the body?

Does she have the technique? If she doesn't perform these technical feats, you know, should she really be a principal dancer? I mean, these are all things that are so unnatural for, you know, someone who's in the position to be promoted. They're under the radar. They're doing their performances and the New York Times are not coming, you know, to review them. So I was in a very different position because, you know, I had kind of been in the spotlight from the time I was 13 years old and coming into the company and being the only black woman for the first decade of my career. I was just in a very different position. So once I was hearing all of that type of criticism, it just became so overwhelming. And it was the first time in my career that I physically shut down and couldn't

perform and execute the things that I needed to on stage because I was just so overwhelmed with this pressure of feeling like if I fail, will there be another opportunity for another black woman to come after me? How did you manage the weight of that? A lot of it was talking to my mentors that are really close to me. Back to your people? Yeah, to my people. And that really just talked me off the ledge and got me to kind of go back to the basics like where do you feel most safe and where are you at home it's on the stage like you you don't have any control over how other people feel all you can do is is be honest and true to yourself and do your best which is what I've always done on stage um and so, you know, there's maybe a month or, you know, something like that.

I mean, which is small in the grand scheme of my whole career, but it was at such a critical time, you know, right before I would be promoted to principal dancer. Did it get into the same way that when you ran off stage as a young girl, like maybe they're right? Is that what got in or was there something else that was getting in? Yeah. I think it was a combination of small, like very small of it getting in. So did it have to do with your body? Did it have to do with your color? Did it have to do with your talent? Like what was the

thing that was underneath that was so agitating that it was at some level paralyzing to the thing that you love doing the most? Or was it all of those or something else? I didn't believe them when they were saying those things about my body or my talent. I think that when it came to these technical feats, to me, it's always been like the technique of ballet gives you a language to be able to tell a story. And that's what I had to keep going back to, that this is not a competitive sport where we're being graded or scored based on these, you know,

we're using the technique to tell a story. And so I think there was a moment where I started to believe that I had to, I had to perform these technical things as if they weren't a part of telling the story. And, you know, I was specifically talking about the 32 Fuetes and Swan Lake, which it, you know, it came, it became something that was so much bigger than it should have been and so much bigger than me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level

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It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This is radical what you're describing. And what you're describing is that you needed to tell a story and go back to early trauma. I didn't have a way to communicate. This is my way to communicate. And when it got heavy and hard, you came back to, I need to use my intelligence, my language, my form to tell a story. And it showed up in a fuete, 32 of them

to be exact. Open up what that is for folks that might not know what that is and why that technically is so challenging. And the radical part is you said, no, it's not the technique. It's the opportunity to say something. Okay. So talk about the technique it's the opportunity to say something yeah okay so talk about the technique that was um because it's so easy to get caught in the technique yes but you are an artist and you went back to the art form okay so help me understand the technical part just for a moment so um the 32 fuetes have become this uh this tradition i guess you could say, within the classics. So Don Quixote, Swan Lake, I mean, they're in the repertoire of a lot of our ballets.

It's a repetitive movement. So you're whipping your leg from front to side and you're rotating. And you're supposed to stay in one spot and do this 32 times. Now what makes it even crazier is that this is not just in isolation. This may be in the third act of a four-act ballet after you've already danced for hours

and it's considered like the grand finale. It's usually in the coda this is what everyone's waiting this is what everyone's waiting for right and you're already fatigued yes to your point yes you're already and you've got two and a half three acts that you're that you know that that thing's coming right could be a disaster for any performer right like that thing is coming later yes so okay so there's a tension about the what's called the dragon you're gonna go slay this dragon that's my metaphor not yours you are a dragon slayer by the way you are a fire breather draggers like you have done it okay so so then when you would get to that moment what would be when you were at your best the type of thinking or the way

it would feel and what was it like when you were really struggling? And then how did you navigate that second? At my best, this is the moment where, let's say within the story of Swan Lake, this is my final attempt to get Prince Siegfried to believe that I am the white swan when I'm actually the black swan. So I have to whip him into a frenzy and just blow his mind so that he chooses me and he no longer has lived up to this vow of love for the white swan. That's the purpose of the flat taste. So at my best, that's what I'm thinking of. In my mind, it's like this Disney film and he's just kind of whipped into this frenzy. And so at your best, you're not finding the point to be centered. You're not doing a technical thing inside of you. You're not thinking about your elbows. You're not

thinking about your carriage. You're not thinking about your leg. I never am on stage. That's why we train for eight hours a day. That's why we're in the studio five to six days a week. That's why we start at the age of seven, you know, so that it's, it's ingrained, it's second nature, the technique. That's why it's there, you know, to support us telling a story so that we are not out there trying to think of all of these things because then you lose the artistry i'm so glad you said that because focusing on technique would be the worst of the best things you could focus on the worst is like i'm not going to do it i can't do it all this negative doubt critique self-talk but of the best, the least effective

would be to think about a technical thing. The highest is that there is no thought. There's an expression, right? And somewhere in between is like, okay, I can do this. I got this. Like that's better than I'm a mess. It's better than thinking about my elbow

or whatever the technical cue is. And then at the highest level, it's like, no, I am completely connected to what i am wanting to express okay and at at your worst at my worst i mean it's you you pretty much said it all i would i would go out there i would approach center stage and it was literally like i could see that critic from the moment i was going to start my fouettes. And I'm going into it just thinking all of the things they're going to write about me. I'm thinking of, you know,

this is this opportunity that I'm blowing to be promoted to principal dancer. I'm going to move off of this center point that I have to say, all of these things are going on. It was just a terrible, terrible place to be in while you're performing. And I'd never experienced that ever,

to be removed from myself while I'm performing. And how did you fight through that? Well, we did some work together that helped me get through that. That's not where I was going. No, but... Yes. Thank you. Yes.

But, you know, I think that it was going back to the basics and going back to why I do what I do and going back to the storytelling. That's what helped me navigate going back on stage and being able to do it, which I've done with every role. It's like I need to know every single aspect of the place where it takes place, every character that's on the stage and how I relate to it.

All of these things allow me to feel even more at ease and comfortable and at home. And so even though I had done that work, I had to go back and do it again to really understand why I'm doing this step to tell this story. Beautiful. Because you're working from first principles in an artistic way. First principles, control, maybe even master what's in your control, which is the way that you think and feel and relate to the piece. You're taking control of your inner life, if you will. And then your outward expression is to match the artistry that you've conjured up from your creative space.

Yeah. Express through the 20 years of discipline training to be precise. Right. And to almost let that go. Yes. If there was a young person listening right now that is, let's say, in their 20s, what would you hope that that 20-year-old person that's early career in whatever they're doing, what would you hope that they would know about how you've been the best in the world for an extended period of time?

And have worked through some really challenges in your life? What would you hope they know? I think it's really difficult at that age, like teens, like going into your early 20s, to understand that you don't have to do this on your own. And having a support system and guidance in your life doesn't mean you're not capable or that you've failed. That has been like the backbone of my success is having a support system around me and people that I can rely on and turn to and get advice from, you know, when I'm having tough times or when I'm not, you know, that I'm constantly kind of in communication with. That's something that I think is so critical, you know, when you're kind of entering into adulthood. No one does it alone.

Build your community, build your relationships. Yeah. Okay. And if there was somebody that was 13 that's listening to us and they're young, what would you hope they would know? power of individuality and um and and being okay with who you are especially this day and age with social media i think it's so tough to you know to feel like you can you can be your own person and not have to look like you know the person next to you or you know just things that come through your feed um there's so much power in being yourself. I love that idea. Fundamentally commit to know who you are

and to work from that place. Yeah. That would drown out the critics at some way. When you know who you are, I think when you know who you are, nobody can take that away from you. They can critique and judge and point, laugh, scoff, dismiss. They can do all of those very violent things to another person.

But when you know who you are, they can't take that away. For the 30-year-old that is paying attention and hanging on every word of your insight and brilliance, that is the only inner room. The only one that looks a certain way. The only one that doesn't have representation. The one that is like, I feel different than other people. And they can actually look like everybody else, but they have a private part to themselves that they don't want to be exposed or revealed. The person who has something that they either look

or sound or show up different, or they feel like they don't want to be exposed. You have credibility in both. What would you hope that person understands? I think that it's never too late to find your confidence. It's never too late to find your inner power. I feel like I've lived my whole career with this idea that I'm not going to have the same trajectory as anyone else around me. You know, I started late. I was the only, you know, I was promoted at 32, which is

ancient in ballet years, all of these things, but, you know, that you have to listen to yourself and follow your own path and your own journey. And of course, you know, that community is always coming back into play with, you know, at every point in my life, it's always about the circle of people around me that are going to be there to support me. You know, I remember, you know, being the only in, in ABT, you know, in the beginning of my career. American Ballet Theater. Yes. American Ballet Theater. 20s i was somebody 20s hugged on your shirt and said i want to recognize that you're at the pinnacle and you're doing it in a way that there's there's no path for people that look like you

right so you navigated this on your own i want to introduce you to a tribe of people that have also navigated right a different but similar path. There's so much possibility in that, you know, that I don't think that you have to find someone that has exactly experienced what you have, but there are so many people out there that have been the first or been the only that you can learn from, even if it's not exactly mirroring your experience. But I would also say that you have to be open to receiving that guidance and that mentorship. And I feel like I was from an early age. I was so hungry for someone to give to me and I was ready to receive it.

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It's a constant battle at this point in my life and in my career. Nobody would know that. Even listening to how you shape your words, how eloquent you are, how clear you are, I don't think anyone would recognize that you're now in a new transition and you're saying it's a battle. It is. I mean, you know, to be in, I think my fear is that I don't know everything, which, come on, it's not realistic, but it's a real fear that I have. That you're supposed to come into certain situations and, and, you know, and, and know, and be able to answer, you know, to, you know, answer questions about things instead of just saying, you know, um, you know, that we're going to, we're going to figure this out together. So going from ballet to?

To starting the Misty Copeland Foundation, um, to starting my production company, Life in Motion Productions, to starting my athletic where Brand Greatness Wins, to sitting on different artists' boards of Lincoln Center and The Shed. And so these are all spaces that are so new to me and you know that I'm it's just unfamiliar what psychological skills are navigating over to this like are you pulling from your 20 plus year career as being the best in the world like what psychological skills are you pulling through there is no giving up like I am going to make this happen I'm going to find a way. I think that's what it is. And it doesn't have to look like maybe what I imagined things would look like if I, you know, I'd have to go to school and do all of these things in order to be in this place. But

I'm on a different journey than other people, and that's okay. And it's gotten me to this place and I and that's really I think the the power behind my mission that's connected to all of these endeavors that I that I'm a part of is that the arts have given me the tools to be able to do a variety of things it's given me the confidence it's given me the discipline the the belief in myself, the understanding and the importance of community. So I have so many amazing skills, you know, that I'm applying to all of these things. But there are still those days when I think, you know, can I do this? So do we all. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm making it up as I go. I don't have a path that, you know, that is incredibly clear.

I feel like I'm cutting the forestry in front of me. And I look to what you're doing and I say, oh my God, the discipline, the confidence, the know what it means and feels to be in the arena, the awareness that I'm not, I have this tension that I'm supposed to show up perfectly or know it all, but I don't. And to listen to how you said, I started as this very private, scared introvert to being one of the

most expressive humans on the planet to now building businesses and foundations to be able to help people become their very best. What a life arc. Did you ever imagine when you were younger that this is what life would look like? I don't want to say no, because I feel like I couldn't see it. But I knew that it was something that would go beyond the stage. I've always seen ballet and the stage as this platform for me to grow. I've always looked at it that way since I was a little girl. And it's become that.

And to this day, people always say, well, what's next for you? And I'm like, I have no idea. I know that it's going to be serving the same purpose as everything that I'm doing. But things have just kind of happened really organically. And I've kept my mind open. And if it makes sense and it's staying true to who I am and bringing ballet to more people and diversifying it, kind of changing the narrative around who can be a part of it and the stories that we tell.

If it fits into that, then it's going to be authentic and I think it will be successful. You've had a great experience of having amazing coaches early on. And we think about those above the line coaches. Somehow they allow us to be seen. And when we leave their presence, we feel like we are capable of so much. They're above the line. Then there's the below the line coaches. When we leave their presence, we're not sure. We feel small. We're unsettled in so many ways. So have you had below-the-line coaches? It's really hard because I've had great coaches and then I've had people that are brilliant artists that come into the room and don't know how to give that back

to the dancer in front of them. And I feel like I've used these skills that I've learned throughout my childhood where, you know, abuse was coming at me and I've learned how to kind of shield, block it from really entering into me in a real way. And so I think it's kind of, you know, it's a skill, so I think it's kind of, you know, it's a skill, but I think it's kind of, you know, listening, but not really taking it in. And I think about

one of my ballet mistresses, Susan Jaffe, who was a brilliant ballerina with American Ballet Theater. And when I would, I would have very candid conversations with her about these types of things. And she would just always say to me, don't let other people's words define you. You have the power to sift through the things that they're saying and take the jewels that you might hear or throw away some of the other words that they're saying. You have the power to do that. And it takes practice, but it's definitely something that I can do at this point. If I were in a studio that I could just, maybe if they're saying things that I don't agree with or that are negative, I'm looking at them. They might be moving their arms in a really beautiful way. And I'm like,

oh, okay, I can draw from that or the way they're showing me the movement. Even though the words that are coming out are biting and cold and dismissive or whatever it is, critical, you are looking for the thing or the information that can help you. Yes. Help this be really concrete. What is something that somebody in your past has said to you that has still stung? I remember being in a setting when I was in the corps de ballet and I was given an opportunity to learn a soloist role and there were other people in the room in the same position. And I had finished this variation and the ballet mistress at the front said, well, you're much

more talented than all of the girls in this room, but only if you had her body. And I just remember feeling hurt, but also thinking like, well, she doesn't like my body. All I can do is be my healthiest self, which I don't think I was at that point, because I was still learning how to navigate what it is to be an athlete and fuel my body in that way, because that's not how I was raised. And so I thought, I can control this. I can be my healthiest self, but I know I have the talent and I know that I have what it takes to do this. Right. So it goes through a filter. And how do you build that filter that I'm good? I am okay. You're not going to define me. How do you build that filter so the things that come through continue to be something you can use? It's the support around me. It's having the people that

I do trust and that I know love me that are going to be real and honest with me and support me. I believe their words and their guidance. We talk about building a table, a round table, if you will. And there's not many seats at that round table. And who do you invite to have a seat that really understands you, that understands your scar tissues, your pain points, your dreams, your ambitions, your hopes. So when they say something, it's in context of the fullness of you and not just some errant you know arrogant yeah i love all of that let's do a couple really quick hits okay so short pithy little answers if you will that that's hard for me but i'll try what one word three words maybe a sentence okay i am i am strong my vision is my vision is creativity and artistry for all if there was a word that you understand the most what is that word fight

and if there's a word that you revolt against? That is difficult. Like you're like, I don't understand that word. Judgment? The way you said it. What did you just feel? That fear of people, you know, of being judged like my whole life or in my childhood and in my professional life

and just not wanting to put that on other people. Yeah, the world needs that. Yeah. Thank you for being that. Yeah, and bringing it forward even in this conversation. Okay. Pressure comes from? I feel like I could take this in so many different directions.

The way I'm thinking at it in this very moment is that pressure comes from negativity. If you had a boat, what would you name it? Butterfly. Perfect. Who tells you no? Jackson, my son. Who saves you? My husband.

What a gift. When you think about the now generation of kids, what is the one word that you hope for them? One word, I don't know, but belief in themselves. If there was somebody who was a master of craft and you had the opportunity to sit with them, whether they're alive or not, who would that master of craft be? Mikhail Baryshnikov. And where would to sit with him, whether they're alive or not. Who would that master of craft be?

Mikhail Baryshnikov. And where would you sit with Mikhail? Maybe in the Russian tea room and have vodka or something. That would be a surprise. And if there was one question you could ask him, just one, what would the question be? Crazy, because I've met him so many times. I've never had a conversation like this. I would ask him, really dive in with him,

his approach in becoming a character on stage, because I think that's his brilliance. It's not these technical things that I think people know him for. It's his storytelling. I love that answer. How did you do it? And this is the last question for us. How did you become or create the story that you were able to express? It's truly believing that I am that character, that person. It's diving in so deep that I can

feel the air of the place that I'm in and the scent of where I'm at, music that's playing in that place. I think it's going back to being a young girl. And I think something I didn't really get to experience, which was this like imagination and creativity that I bring with me on stage. I understand why you're a legend. I understand why you have broken barriers, how you have slayed dragons, how you have become somebody that so many of us look to to say, that is what freedom looks like. That is what courage looks like. That is what artistry and creativity is embodied in. And thank you for breaking down barriers and showing us how to be strong,

graceful, and to keep fighting. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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