Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Nastia Liukin: Finish What You Start | Insights from a 5x Olympic Medalist

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Think back to the most pivotal moments of your life… What parts of you did you bring forward? Which parts did you hold back? How did these experiences shape your way of being?These questions lie at the heart of our conversation today with Nastia Liukin, a gold medal gymnast whose name is etched in history for winning the All-Around title at the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Beyond her monumental achievements – including tying the record for the most gymnastics medals won by an American in a single Olympic Games with FIVE medals – Nastia's journey is one of relentless pursuit, resilience, and the courage to redefine success.In this episode, Nastia reveals the significant moments of her career – from a pivotal conversation with Kobe Bryant that reshaped her self-perception, to the standing ovation that followed what she considers to be her worst performance.Nastia’s lived experience shows us all how to find meaning and success beyond external achievements. And she continues to walk her talk.We dive deep into the dynamics of perfection and control, vulnerability, and the power of being present. Nastia's insights offer a practical guide for embracing the profound impact we have when we can be at home with ourselves, wherever we are.I’m excited for you to discover new ways to define your own success, respond with courage, and meet the moment._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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There's so much strength in what you just said. I like to live my life without fear. The one fear that I have is the fear of what if. You haven't talked about this before, have you? No. Everybody's going to fall on their face. It's about how do you pick yourself up and how do you keep going? Your best or the best?

What was your primary focus? If I was my best, I was the best in the world. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. Take a moment to consider, what are the moments that have influenced your life? What parts of you did you bring forward? What parts of you did you hold back? How did these experiences shape the contours of your life?

These questions lie at the heart of our conversation today with Nastia Lukin, a gold medal gymnast whose name is etched in the history for winning the all-around title at the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Beyond her monumental achievements, including tying the record for the most gymnastics medals won by an American in a single Olympic Games, Nastia's journey is one of relentless pursuit, resilience, and the courage to redefine success. In this episode, Nastia reveals the significant moments of her career. From a pivotal conversation with Kobe Bryant that reshaped her self-perception, to the standing ovation that followed what she considers to be her worst performance ever. Imagine that. Nastia's lived experience shows us all how to find meaning and success beyond external achievements. And she

continues to walk her talk. In this conversation, we dive deep into the dynamics of perfection and control, vulnerability, and the power of being present. Nastia's insights offer a practical guide for embracing the profound impact we have when we can be at home with ourselves wherever we are. I'm excited for you to discover new ways to define your own success, to respond with courage and meet the moment. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the incredible Nastia Lukin. I am so excited to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming to the Mastery Lab and doing this

in person. And one, flat out, congratulations on a massive body of work that represents a full commitment to mastery. And so you have a lot to teach. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, cool. Let's start with one legend with another legend, a conversation that you had with Kobe. Can you take us into that moment? You know, there's moments in life that just kind of feel there's two types.

That it feels like it was just yesterday or just an hour ago and you remember every single moment and then there's others that you kind of remember the experience and you don't remember details. But that one specifically with Kobe, it was just like I remember the exact room. I remember everything about it because it's kind of how it always was with Kobe. Like anytime he said something, whether it was like serious or, you know, funny or just being himself, like it was he had a presence and like just an energy about him that made you want to listen. Whether it was just him talking about his girls, whether it was giving advice, like truly no matter what it was, like you just would pause and actually listen and not just try to like be in a conversation,

but you tried to listen to him. And that one specifically, like I remember it so clearly because he was nominated for the Oscar and he looked at me and he was like, you need to stop putting yourself in a box. And I was like, what do you mean? Like kind of out of nowhere, you know, we were just like kind of talking about, oh, how's it going? Whatever. And he goes, let me guess, you walk into a room and i'm like and he's like

And you yourself see yourself as the gymnast in the pink leotard, don't you? And I was like, mm-hmm I was like, how does he know this? And he was like you need to stop doing that because you are way more than just the gymnast in the pink leotard That is something that you did sure you wore that pink leotard But that's not who you are. And the second that you can start figuring out how to take yourself outside of that box and stop just being the gymnast in the pink leotard, that's when your life will start.

And I just kind of looked at him and I didn't say anything. And so he kept talking. And then he said, nobody thought I would be nominated for an Oscar. And he was like, but I showed them. And you know what? No one believes I'm going to win, but you watch me. I'm going to go win the Oscar next week. And he did.

And I think like, not that I didn't believe like, you know, the box story then, but I think watching the Oscars, I remember being at home and watching it. And like he was the epitome of greatness on so many different levels. No matter what he did, he found a way to be great. And that doesn't mean like winning an Oscar. That doesn't mean being, you know, the best basketball player or gymnast or athlete, but I think it was a mindset. And I think that's what he truly was so great at, waking up at 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. to be the best version of himself and not necessarily the best basketball player. Sure, that came with it. But I think truly being the best version of yourself, setting yourself up for the possibility of success. He recognized that because he probably felt that same box. And there's a very famous book,

which I'm sure you've read or been familiar with, Pretty Girls in Little Boxes, which you were the pretty girl in a little box for a long time. And just that one little comment jarred something in you. Did it change you or did it remind you? It was always something that I knew and that I feared. You feared that you were going to be boxed in to your success or your identity? My identity. Your identity. So this was, okay, let's open this up for just a bit. Your identity relative to how people saw you or your identity relative to how you felt

about yourself? Less about myself, how I felt about myself and more, will people like me or love me or want to support me if I'm not the girl in the pink leotard with a gold medal around her neck? That's right. And who am I without the pink leotard and the gold medal? That's right. Because that's all I knew.

And I wanted that. I so badly wanted that. Ever since I could remember, ever since I was old enough to kind of understand, to set this goal and to set this dream, I told myself I will do absolutely everything possible to achieve that one thing. Like there was no life after 2008 in my head.

Like I didn't even like 2009 didn't exist because I was just so focused on. Because you're so focused and committed to 2008, which we're talking about the Olympics. The Olympics, yes. And so I think like when, yeah, obviously we'll get to it, but when it happens, I think it's like, I kind of let not even just one thing, but like the sport as a whole define who I was. And so what I started realizing was like, it's about rephrasing it of, you know, I'm not the gymnast. I did gymnastics. You know, I'm not the Olympic gold medalist. Like I won an Olympic gold medal. And when did you make that, that switch? I think those are some of the most powerful phrases

that we can make. And I think some of the most dangerous phrases are I am, and then fill in, fill in the statement with your role. Absolutely. Whether it's a husband, a wife, an employee, like any role. Yeah, no role can ever- Because we're not defined by any of those roles. And you and I are not saying that those roles are not important. Absolutely. And not worth all of the passion that you want to bring to it, but you are bigger than any role that you can- Bigger, better, and more. Yeah. And so this is really important because this idea of what you're describing is called a performance-based identity. And it can get you, a performance-based identity can carry

you to a gold medal because I'm doing everything. I'm pouring all of me into it in a dangerous slip and slide that you lose who you are because that's the only thing that you become. Nothing else matters. Right. Now, okay, now I can't help but be a psychologist in this conversation, right? And I know that's not our agreement. No, but it's so funny because I've never, my whole life, I've never like seen one or spoken to one really.

I know. And I actually wanted to major at NYU in that because I'm so intrigued by like, how, how did I. How did you do it? Yeah. Oh, there's a lot. I mean, I know there's a lot, but also why I'm like not normal, you know? Yeah, you are not normal. No, I know.

I'm like, I'm very aware, but it's also like, I believe the top 1% of, you know, everybody isn't fully normal. No, I agree. Yeah. And I feel like that's perceived sometimes in a negative way. And I don't say it in a negative way, but it takes a little bit of not normal too. There's some narcissism, some obsessiveness, some anxiety, some, you know, there's a bit of a savage in there. There's selfishness. Yeah, absolutely. So, and I'm not sure that it's the path for the good life. You know, I think what was so great, but also scary was it was such an early chapter in

my life. So I achieved what I wanted to when I was 18. And then I had the rest of my life, which was like so scary. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in.

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2008 was a blowout. Like how about, how many medals? Was it five? Five. I beat my dad by one, but he has two gold and I only have one. We're not competitors. Okay. All right. He let me know. All right. Yeah. There you go. Okay. And so, and dad was your coach. Yeah. So it is very complicated, the path that you navigated up until what age were you in 2012? 22. 22.

So that's a very complicated, potentially terribly messy. Yeah. And is dad my coach or is he my unconditional loving father? Right. And being two very similar, stubborn perfectionists. Both of you. Yeah. So perfectionism is often born out of an anxiety,

a control thing and an anxiety thing. And it can get you really good, but the cost can be unsettling. That's so interesting. I've never heard that. Well, it's gotta be right. It's gotta be right. It's gotta be right. Yeah. And so did you looking back, if anxiety is an excessive worry about what could

go wrong and depression is something. I didn't have fear of what could go wrong. You didn't have a general anxiousness. No. I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe more so now in life. But no, like training that was, it was always, and that's kind of what my dad instilled. Like, don't ever worry about what could go wrong. He would kind of train in the sense of try to figure out how you're just going to stick your dismount. Not if you're going to make the routine or not. It's more so, you know, you're going to make it, but how well are you going to make it? So it was kind of like this shift in my mentality, at least of it's not like an, like, it's not a good or bad. It's a how good.

How good. So was feedback in alignment with that? Would he point out the mistakes? Like, Hey, this isn't good enough. Or would he say you nailed it that's it do that again no no no no it wasn't it wasn't that it was um the perfectionism maybe the perfectionism it was it was there in the training absolutely like do it again again again you know until it's not perfect but you're perfect because I think that's also something worth noting, especially in a sport like gymnastics. Like Nadia obviously got a perfect 10, you know, so many years ago and there is no perfect 10 anymore. And they're giving them out in college like they're candy. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You can you can follow that thread a little bit. No, I mean mean i think it's great i do no i do like i just think like i wish i could have gotten like a 10 too but it's it's in the elite level it's impossible because there's so many skills would you yeah right and so okay sorry so the training i know wait there's so much i want to ask you you dismount bang and would you reflexively look at the board to see if you are good or not or would you internally calibrate and be your own tuning fork and be like that was it and then ignore the board look at coach look at dad and be like we we brought it or I brought it. First, first and foremost,

it was yeah. Approval from myself and then him. So when you're, so you land, I know if it's like good or not, you did an inventory. Okay. And are you keeping inventory as you go? Yeah. Or is it an instant thing at the end? Both. Okay. So as you go, you're, it's like a plus one minus one. Yeah. Because like, to be completely honest, that's the way it has to be in the scoring, you know? But are you adjusting your skill? If you're, if you have a wobble, you're going to say, okay, now I got to throw the triple. Yes. But not change the routine. It was more so specifically on bars, which was my strongest event, but that was the one

that like gave me the most like, oh God, I could throw up. But it was so fun to watch. Oh, I'm so glad because it was not fun. You've heard that a lot though. Your lines were very different than everybody's lines. Yeah. It wasn't meant to be a, um, like a gym, like a gymnast really. I think, I think, so my mom was a rhythmic gymnast. So she is, you know, tall, like taller, flexible, graceful. She had like that side. And then my dad was, you know, the complete opposite. And everyone was always like almost joking and making fun of like, you know, me and like my dad, like even to my dad, they'd be like, just just look at her. Just like she can't, you know,

she's not gonna be able to do anything. Because I was always tall. I mean, I was 5'2", at the Olympics, tall. And I was skinny and just not strong. You were taller than everyone else. It's like a 4'11". Yeah, a few inches. But I also had longer lines.

So I looked a lot taller on TV than I was like even now in person, people are like, oh, whoa, I thought you were like at least five, eight. Um, so I think it was like, yeah, it was the combination of like the two of them. And then a hundred percent like the perfect or maybe not perfect. The combination of them, both, both and mentally. Is you. Yes. And, but you, you slid something in there that I was not meant to be a gymnast. Yeah. I just like an athlete in general. You don't feel athletic. Not at all.

I think there was a time in my life. I don't know what to do with this. Do with it as you want i know like i i honestly best in the world and you don't feel athletic so i was the best in the world at a certain time and so that doesn't make me the best in the world today at that. Of course, yeah. Like it's something that I'm so proud of and I forever will be proud of. And I just don't think that it's something that, like I couldn't do any of that right now.

What was, so then slide down into like the psychology underneath of that. Like I'm doing this thing that doesn't feel like my body fully inhabits the demand, right? People talk about my body being different. So there's that public outside in. There's that organic inside kind of fitting in a weird way. Yeah, almost like, yeah, manipulating, yeah.

And then you've got two very tall, I don't mean physically tall, but tall tent poles. Very successful parents, which either cast a shadow or they cast a spotlight. Okay, so before we go to them, slide just right under the surface of your psychology. How were you navigating that you are on the path towards an Olympic moment? I've got to get this done. I don't know who I am without it. It wasn't, I don't know who I am without it. I don't belong in this family if I'm not good. No, thank God I don't have siblings though. You know?

Oh, you're an only. Yeah. My son, same. Yeah. It's in, in like, I mean, I had teammates my whole life. I was in the gym eight hours a day. So it was, I was never lonely, but jokingly, I always say like they would, you know, be unfortunately probably even more not athletic than me. Oh God.

I think it was, it was less about my parents didn't even want me to do the sport because they knew how hard it was. And they just truly, they wanted me to find something that I loved, not that they loved and that I was passionate about, not that they were passionate about. And so that was. Did you have a chance? Absolutely. My mom literally tried. So like took me to piano lessons every like I would just cry.

Like I wanted nothing to do with anything except for gymnastics. But why gymnastics if you if you didn't feel like you had the physicality? I didn't know that then. Like, you know, as a child, I didn't know. Yeah, of course. I think like I didn't really know, you know, everybody looks different. Like, you know, as a kid, you're just like you love you love it and you're happy. And when we moved to this country, you know, they couldn't afford a babysitter. They had a dream. They had no money and they had like a baby couldn't speak the language. And so their, their dream and goal was to always open up a gymnastic school and coach their own athletes to becoming world Olympic champions, never imagined and be their own daughter. And so as they're building this gym, I, I was literally just in the gym 24-7 because like where else do I go, you know?

And we had no family. Like we had nobody else here. Gym rat is a gym rat. Exactly. Yeah. And they started seeing like I just – I never wanted to leave even after like eight, ten hours there. Like I was just – it was a huge playground for me. And so I fell in love with it truly.

Like they would literally push me like almost aside. Like they wouldn't let me do classes. They wouldn't let me do it at first because they really tried that hard to like get me to fall in love with something else. Because they knew. They knew, you know, the pressure and the expectation and, you know, how difficult it was. And especially as the only child, like they, part of them moving to this country was to give me the best possible life that they possibly could. And so they did not envision gymnastics being part of that. You know, it was, it was something that they knew that was their, you know, talent and that was all they knew. And so they wanted to

kind of everything they learned from the sport and in their careers, they wanted to pass along to this next generation by coaching. Got it. And they started seeing that, unfortunately, I was actually very talented and had pretty good genes that I was born with. And so they would like watch from the side as I'm like trying to just mimic the girls that they're coaching. And they were like, why is she doing it better than them? And so, yeah, I mean, but it was always, you know, it's what you tell us what your goals are and we will help you get there if that's what you want. How did you, so let's speak to the parent listening. What did your dad do? Um,

or what seed did he water the most in you? If we all have these seeds. Yeah, absolutely. I would say truly it had nothing to do with gymnastics. It had everything to do with the rest of my life. And that is what he always instilled. And it was these life skills that at the time, you know, you don't really realize that you're learning. But even more so, it was, I remember so many times he would say two things, you know, taking care of your body and the proper conditioning, the proper nutrition,

all of that, because he always wanted me to make sure that I set myself up to one day, God willing, I have my own kids to be able to run around with them and play with them. He did not want 12 surgeries later, I can barely get out of bed. And to this day, like the reason why I've had one surgery my whole life, and that was because I was on the trampoline and I rolled my ankle, was literally because of him and the way that he put my training plan together. Like there is no other way to explain, you know, I was always like frail and skinny and not strong, like all, but the conditioning and everything that we did mentally and physically, like it was the combination of it, of being so focused because it is such a dangerous sport. So it's not like, don't smile, don't have fun because I don't want you to have fun. It's like, this is dangerous. If you're going up on the beam or the bars, you need to be focused. So it was a combination of all of those things. And then he always really instilled the importance of this is just a short chapter in your life.

You have the rest of your life after this. And promise me at some point in your life, I don't care how old you are, that you were going to go to school one day and you were going to graduate. And I remember I was 10, 12 years old. And I remember being like, sure. Yeah. Whatever, you know, whatever you say that, whatever makes you happy right now. And to this day, I remember that. And, you know, he always just said, like, we don't know how far your gymnastics career is going to take you, obviously, but an educational stick with you for the rest of your life. So promise me one day you'll go to school. And you didn't, you didn't do

traditional high school. No, I went to a private school, um, that they kind of, it was like a bunch of athletes basically. Yeah. So it's like a, yeah, it was two and a half hours on the road type of, it was actually like a, it was down, it was a two miles from the gym. Um, my, my graduating class was like 25 people. people, mostly all my teammates. But yeah, we trained eight to 12, school 12, 30 to three, train four to seven. No prom. I went to prom. Come on.

I was home by nine or 10. One of my teammates. You're one of the few elite athletes that says that. I know. I actually, and that was the other thing. They really tried. Where'd you go to prom? Wait, the 25 of you dressed up? Well, it was like the whole high school you know it was probably like i don't know 70 of us okay like

you know and then if like you bring a date like it can be from somewhere yeah but i mean it was like moments like that it was i so that was the other thing i graduated my senior prom was the other thing. I graduated my senior prom was the year before the Olympics. So it was kind of like I didn't even want to go, honestly, because like I didn't want to go. I was so laser focused that I was like the Olympics are next year get me to like just relax occasionally and on the weekends and, you know, be a normal teenager. But I didn't want to be normal. What he so badly wanted me to understand was, yes, gymnastics right now seems like everything, but it's not. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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Like, do you have a story? Gymnastics was not on the dining room table. Yeah. So you did not, you did not do flips on your table. No, not even talking. Like it was hard. So there's a boundary there. Yeah.

As soon as we walked out of the gym doors and, you know, he'd drive me home. Like, like that was it. Like we, like we really, really try. Now the year of the Olympics, I'd be lying to say that, you know, it wasn't like occasionally things would get brought up or whatever. But up until then, it was very much so like we tried so hard to be walking and also the same in reverse, right? So we walk into the gym. he's not my dad anymore so like no like you don't get special treatment you wait in line like everybody else you the only like i would literally ask some like a teammate sitting next to me to like call his name like

across the gym if like i needed a spot because i didn't want to scream dad across the gym because i didn't want any i didn't want to be different you know and and he didn't want any, I didn't want to be different, you know? And, and he didn't want that. If anything, like that was harder for me because I'm sensitive and emotional and whatever. So it's like, I had to remind myself that wasn't my dad coaching me. It was my coach. This is, it's way trickier for the kid than the adult. Oh, I mean, of course I'm sure. I'm sure it's yeah. I mean, but both ways, like he was more nervous as my coach during the Olympics than he was nervous for himself competing at the Olympics and the all around final one moment specifically. I remember it was 2007, the year before the Olympics. And he hands me a sticky note in the middle of the gym.

And it's like D E E D DC, like whatever, like all these letters. I'm like, what is this? And he's like, your bar routine for the Olympics. And I'm like, I can't do half of those skills. Like, I don't even know how to do that. And he's like, we have a few months to learn. And so he was a mastermind of like coming up with for all of his athletes, like the best possible way to get the most out of like that routine. Like if I didn't do that bar routine, there was no shot at me winning the Olympics. And I remember literally being over and over telling me, I can't do that. Like there's no way that I can barely do that first skill, let alone connect it to three more into the release move. Did dad believe you could?

Yes, absolutely. So how did, do you know how dad was able to see something that you couldn't see or see something that other people couldn't see? Yeah, I guess it's more, why couldn't I see it? This is what I think great coaches do and great life partners is they use their imagination, which is a very intimate thing to do, and loving and caring to imagine what greatness is for another person and then present an idea.

What do you think? Most people don't do this loving work of using their imagination to see a compelling future for another person. And then when that idea is presented to the other person, the other people or the other person typically shudders at it. I think it's a level of trust that has to be there as well. Oh, right. Like a thousand percent. That's why the second part of that falls. So your dad would use his imagination in a special way to see greatness for other people. Is that a fair statement? Absolutely. I mean, a combination of that and also the physical ability, right? Like nobody else could do my bar routine. So he wouldn't just imagine it. Beautifully matched for you. For you. Yeah. That's the,

that's the deepest part of this. Okay. And then, um, how did he, how did he help you? You said physical skills, technical skills, and you also said mental skills. What, what did you mean by mental skills? So the specific moment that I remember was I, I ended up doing that bar routine and shockingly, I wish you had the sticky. That'd be fun. I know. I, yeah, that's one of those things. And his, like, he had a, um, this count, I remember it's like on his desk, he had this, you know, just like the white calendar of like the monthly. And he would, he started back August, August 15th, 2008, the day I won all around finals. And so he would go backwards through January 1st and he created the whole plan for the year down to on this day, on Wednesday evening training, three beam routines, two of each skill,

like literally every single day. 2008 rolls around and I had the ankle injury happen in 2006, but 2007 was the worst competitive year of my life. Like national championships, the year before the Olympics, eight routines, I fell six times. Like this is the year that you are supposed to be almost your best, right? And now all of a sudden was I not even like the best, but I was the favorite leading up to that. Like, but like the favorite going into the Olympics. And then the year before it was like, oh, you're not only not the favorite, you're not, you're not even good enough to make the team. You're too old at 17. You're too injured. You're too washed up.

There's girls that are just better than you. And who were those gals at that time? My teammate, Sean Johnson, was 15. And, you know, it's like she's now we look at each other and it's like we're basically the same age, you know, but it's like 15 to 17 at that time was like, oh, she's a baby. And it was her first year as a CEO. And she was a bundle of energy. And I like, we like looked very different physically. Mentally, we were the exact same person.

It was so crazy. And we would read the same, you know, books. We would like literally show up to like a training camp with like Mind Gym. And like both of us were reading it and we'd be like. But it was like, we were the same. It's a book i give out a bunch it's a good one gary gary max it's just like it's an easy one you know yeah my son has a beginner yeah it's a good one and anyways i think so i had i just i couldn't with this new bar routine and like the routines that my dad had planned for the Olympics, I didn't have one good competition where I hit all the routines at once. So in my head, I had never won a competition with these routines because I couldn't get it together to

like, cause I was injured. And so I stopped believing in myself when everybody else did. Say that again. I stopped believing when or and? I stopped believing in myself when everybody else stopped believing in me. Oh, that is a radical statement. Let me rephrase it. When everyone else stopped believing in me, I lost belief in myself. And I don't know why, because they weren't the ones training seven hours a day, six days a week. They weren't the ones in the gym with me. They weren't the ones that knew what my capabilities were.

They weren't the ones that- But this is what the young mind will do, is that we look outside of ourselves to see if we're okay. The rite of passage to be an adult is to be a calibration within yourself. Am I being honest with the way that I'm presenting, speaking? Is this my best? Am I making micro choices to line up, to give myself a chance of success, as you called it? I think the micro choices is really what it means to try to be your best, is you're making these- Every second.

Every second. Every second. I could do this or that or this or that. And so it's those constant micro choices towards the person that you want to be more often. And that is a full-time job. That's not like something you turn on like, you know what? This week I'm going to do it. It's a full-time job. Especially when it's on a balance beam that's four inches wide.

Right. You know, it's like constant. So at that time, 2008, was it, what was the, was it a double, double flips? It wasn't triple. Wait, sorry, on what? What was the, what was the type of flips that you were doing? Yeah. I mean, I did double, like more, I was more of a twister.

So like, yeah, I mean, I had to do, so it was funny. They like implemented, we call it the Nastia rule because I won a world medal on floor without a double flip in my routine. And the very next year they implemented that and we were like, cute, okay, I got you. But I did a double front because I couldn't flip backwards

because like the landings. Yeah, it was, this is what I mean. Like I was not athletic. They really tried so hard. I love all this. Okay, let's go back though. Sorry. The mental.

Yeah. So think about the tragedy of that brilliant little 16 year old, 17 year old, um, Nastia, where you look outside and people are like, she's washed up. She doesn't have it. She's over. And you're like, dang, that was the hardest, I think, moment in my entire career. Truly. Truly. Yeah.

Because I was, always was and still am a people pleaser. Oh, my goodness. So not only was it like, wait a second. As a people pleaser, these people are saying this now. I have now let everybody down. And also now this dream, this one thing that I want so badly, they're telling me I can't do it. Should I listen to them? Do you feel it as you're speaking about it now? Which part?

The sadness. Yeah, absolutely. I really think that it's… I can hear it in your voice. It was the first time I think that people turned against me and I had never experienced that, you know, as a kid. Like it was very. Wait, but what did I what did I do to you? I'm the one hurting. I'm the one that's injured. I'm the one in pain. Why are you hurting me now?

And I think I didn't understand, like, it was so hard for me to process and understand because as a people pleaser, and especially as an athlete, that's trying to be perfect. That's trying to do like, it's like, wait, wait, wait, give me another chance. Let me show you, like, I'll prove to you that that's not who I am. You know, like that routine wasn't me, that season wasn't me. So it was, it was the hardest time, but it was. Wait, what is the feeling right now? Going back to, it's not exactly like warm and fuzzy, you know, like it, it makes me like, I remember like, I remember that feeling so much. Is this like a desperate, like a, there's a sadness in here, but like a, a desperation

that I'm okay. Like, yeah, absolutely. Like what, what is happening here? I think, and also like we didn't even have social media then. You're right. So it's like, imagine that right now. That's what I'm saying. Like, I can't, I truly can't imagine how this generation mentally, physically, whatever, you know, it's like train hard.

Like that's, that's gotten, I would say even maybe a little bit easier because of like the recovery, like the things that there are now for recovery, for, you know, just the education, I would say, but mentally. So how did you remedy that feeling where the world stopped believing or at least the intimate world that mattered? Oh, I mean. And then you had that hopeless feeling and then you say, I hear the fighter in you. No, no, no. Give me a shot now.

Like, here we go. So how did you remedy that and come back from that because i know that what you're describing is not unfamiliar to me it's not unfamiliar to the person listening that goes yeah i've been there i know what it's like to not be seen and to only be valued for a thing and that thing's not good enough and now I'm not good enough, I want to get to, this is an adult show, so kids, I'm sorry. My reflexive is like, go fuck yourself. But that's not healthy.

Right. It's not the right place, but at least it gives me enough energy. Validation in your head or something. That's right. And I'm not that person anymore. And so, but, um, so how did you remedy it? So two things, um, first, I think to, to feel it right. And to put it like on pen and paper of like, this is what's happening kind of to acknowledge it, to acknowledge that this is happening and it's

happened. So now how do you get out of it or how do you get around it or not even around it? How do you go through it? Could you go to your dad? Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I was going to say. That's exactly what happened. It was two things. It was a conversation I had with him and it was at the, around the same time that my mom was really sick and she was in the ICU and it was December of 2007. Um, so the Olympics were around the corner now. Um, and she, she almost died. Um, and I just remember the three of us, like, you know, I was, I had, I had a competition at Madison square garden in a month and a half and it was the year of the Olympics. And I remember being like, what am I doing? Like, why do I, do I even

want to do, like, it's not even important to me. Like, this is important to me. And I remember, I remember that moment just like, so clearly, like just nobody else like mattered, you know, like all those people's opinions of me didn't matter. It was like she's being strong for us. And you haven't talked about this before. No. What a moment. Yeah.

And she was just so. Is this love for your mom that you're feeling? Yeah, absolutely. What a moment. Yeah. And she was just so. Is this love for your mom that you're feeling? Yeah, absolutely. That's what this is. It's like it's her like showing us the strength that like she didn't have in her. Have you told her this before? No, not like fully. I mean, like I think it's like an unspeakable.

I mean, it was like the hardest time in our life, I would say. Where do you feel it right now? My heart. How are you not crying? Trying really hard. You are. I know. I'm watching.

So why are you holding it in? And that's not judgmental. No, I just don't want my makeup to be all over my face. Honestly, I'm like trying to remember if I wear water-free mascara. It's like an emotional tax. Oh, for sure. It's like, well, it's also just trying to like not be vulnerable in a sense, right? Of like just because like you don't want to cry on the competition floor right but

we're not on the competition i know but like thinking like putting myself back in in that time yeah is like is vulnerability hard i would say yes um i would say so because the perfectionism yeah and the this would be- And the constant being judged. So this is like, take a breath, I'll give you some space here. I'm okay now. No, I'm totally fine now. This would be like the upside of perfectionism,

I guess, if there is an upside, is like you get better at something. Yeah. If you can put, if you can kind of point it at a skill. The downside is that- It's never good enough. Because the control is so high.

It's on this, I feel out of control. So if I can just control this better, then I'm okay. Yeah. Control. Yeah. It's control. And vulnerability is. And when you're not in control of something, a relationship, a, you know, the people on the internet, like all of those things, then you think, no, but hold on on how do i get control of this well you can't you cannot and i think that's like yes honestly as an athlete that's that's all you can do is control what you're doing and the outcome is essentially controlled by your performance which is the the second insidious nature of gymnastics and i love the sport it's beautiful to watch and like

i agree but you know where i'm going is that it's completely subjective and it's and it's based on your body it's based on the way you look in something that you're barely wearing clothes it's like a leotard it's call it a bathing suit and um and there's judges and critiques and i fell apart i wasn't i surfing was my sport and it's subjective scoring and i fell apart as a 15 year old because i couldn't manage the being judged and critiqued and here you are doing radically dangerous things in front of millions of people wearing just about nothing and having how many judges? Two? No, four and four. Yeah.

Yeah. From different countries. So it depends, you know, on all the politics. Yeah, right. So even more so why the thing has to be quote unquote perfect because the standard is so ridiculous. Well, you don't want to give them any reason to say point of four. But they did.

You know, I remember specifically the year before the Olympics, world championships, bar finals, I got second place. Nothing wrong with a silver medal, but when you're, we always say like when silver and fourth are just the hardest. Yeah. Cause you lose gold. You lose gold and you lose a medal. Yeah. Um, but I won the silver medal. And I remember just my, my dad went up to the judge after the competition. Like, you know, everybody knows each other. So it's like now a friendly time. Like, competition's done.

And, you know, with the Olympics being next year, he was just out of like, how can we be better? You know, what was it? So do we, you know, do we change something? And she simply said, I just liked the other girl better. So that's what I mean as a 16 17 year old girl how do you then go back into the gym and work harder to get someone to like you better you know what i mean like it's like it's so and so that's why when you ask when you land you immediately look at the thing no like at first when you're young, like, yeah, you want to see what your score is, but I will know right away. I will know right away if it was enough. For you or for them?

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There's so much strength in what you just said and how you said it more importantly. I believed everything you just said. So it's really funny because I said it and I was like, whoa, because I feel that way fully about a bar routine. Yeah. So you just had a moment too that you and I both had. I was like, wow, that actually can translate to everything in life too. And that's where I was going to ask you to speak right to the young girl listening. If there's one thing that you could maybe hydrate for the young girl listening right now,

what would you want to point to? I would say the defining moment of my career was not when I won the Olympics. That moment taught me work hard, hard work pays off, don't give up, whatever. We are all taught at a very young age. But the defining moment was four years later when I didn't make the second Olympic team. And falling flat on my face at the Olympic trials as the reigning Olympic all-around champion when all eyes were on me was probably in the moment the most embarrassing moment. I wanted to crawl under the podium. I wanted to disappear. Like I just truly was mortified. And in that moment, I remember the dad immediately kicked in. He was no longer my coach

and he was like, are you okay? Like, let's just be done. And I was like, absolutely not. Like, you've always taught me no matter what you do, finish what you started. And so he was like, okay, like he just wanted it to be over. And I knew that, you know, I wasn't going to make the Olympic team then. But I also knew that my career was over. And I didn't want it to be over like that on my face. So I got back up. I finished my routine. And for the very first time in my entire life and career, I had a standing ovation for the

worst routine of my entire life and career, I had a standing ovation for the worst routine of my entire life and career. And that was the moment that I truly, truly realized but also believed that we will never be defined by a gold medal or a routine, a placement, a score, a salary, a relationship, a title. None of those things will define us. My whole life, I was afraid that people were only going to love me or support me if I was a score, a salary, a relationship, a title. None of those things will define us. My whole life, I was afraid that people were only going to love me or support me if I was the best, if I stuck my dismount, if I won a gold medal.

No one taught me that. Like, I taught myself that for some reason. The moment that I had there at those Olympic trials in San Jose, California, 20,000 people stood on their feet for the worst routine of my entire life and career. What did they see in you? Everybody's going to fall on their face. It's about how do you pick yourself up and how do you keep going? It's not about being the best. It's about the journey. It's about the struggle and getting through the struggle.

It's about being a good person. They saw the vulnerability to go for it. I didn't have to finish that routine. Like my, my. You could have walked off. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, I did have a mild concussion, but like, so I could have, you know, just taken the easy way, but. 2012 concussions were not really.

I know. Taken care of properly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so they saw themselves in you in that moment. I think so. I think it was more so also. Like a thing.

I'd like to think it was a little bit of a thank you, you know, knowing that my career was over and, you know, we like we love still love you. I think no matter what. That's not what I was thinking. I was thinking that they said that is rad that good at anything and have it fall apart in that way, a thousand pieces, and then to somehow psychologically pull myself back together, have a dignified way about me and take another run at it. I think where I went in it, and of course, I wasn't living that moment, is that if I was in the stands, I wouldn't celebrate thank you. I'd say, I see me in you and I don't know if I could have done that.

Thank you for showing me that that can be done because maybe I can do that now too. Can you speak to how you did it in that moment? Can you go right into that moment? There aren't many moments. I obviously did a lot of competitions, but there are a few that immediately I can go right to. I just, there wasn't a doubt in my mind.

Like, it was just, it was the way I was trained. You know, you fall, you just, you get back up and you have to finish that routine. You can't give up. You can't walk away. You can't start over. You can't, like, this get back up and you have to finish that routine. You can't give, you can't give up. You can't walk away. You can't start over. You can't like, this is the sport that you chose. So you rise to the occasion, fall to the level of training. You know, you fell to the level of your training there because.

Not necessarily. Like I was, I had my shoulder was, but like I wasn't fully in, this was only because it was my own fault. I don't think I wasn't as like physically prepared, obviously, as I was in 2008. That was a very much, that was a mind over matter. Yeah. That's what I meant is that you, your training was no, you finish what you start. Yes. Sorry.

So you, your default training was your default training absolutely was right there it was right there and and dad was like oh i get what's happening can i take care of you and you're like no no we do what we said yeah absolutely and i think for him it was more so dad daughter yeah you know and like we're good for done like we just want to be done and be safe. You know, like we almost made it. And I think for like, he didn't see. Did you see him as dad in that moment? Yes. For a split second.

Yeah. And then immediately you have 30 seconds to get back on the bar and finish or else like you're, you get a zero. So immediately I popped up, fixed my hair for some reason. And. Fall to the level of training. Literally. I'm like, oh God. And then I was like, oh, my neck.

Okay. And I'm like 30 seconds. I'm like trying to, you know, rechop my hands. I think the judges were. And he's talking to you at that moment. He is, but not really. He's kind of, I think he's, I don't remember anything. He, he asked if I was okay.

And that's all I really remember um and I think we both were kind of like because normally what he has to do is like lift you up on the and he kind of started walking like we were both like confused I think in the moment it was just like a lot this is new information you falling at a world at a trial but also because you know he the whole thing too was like, why didn't he catch you? Well, it's like, if you like my fingertips caught the bar. Right. And so it's like, if the coach there, I've done that so many times in the gym and yeah, like he'll catch, like, he'll always kind of like, you know, be there because in the gym, it's not deduction. If a coach touches you

with one finger, a spot, it's the same deduction as a fall. It's even riskier for his call. Yeah, 100%. And so he's kind of like, and it happens like within a split second. So he felt, you know, but like there was so many things going on at the same time. But I think in the moment it was more so. It was also sadness. It was for me, it was knowing I will never have a moment on the podium with him again. You had it in that 30 seconds?

You had sadness there? Or is that now? No, I had it as soon as my feet hit the ground and I saluted knowing it was done. It was like, and I didn't want it to be that way. You know, I had imagined the last moment with him with another gold medal or, you know, something. And yet at the same time, I wouldn't have changed the ending. Would you speak to people in this way, say, how would you speak to people to go for it? I would say I like to live my life without fear. The one fear that I have is the fear of what if

that was why I was at the Olympic trials, because I knew I would be at the next Olympics working in some capacity. And I didn't want to be there thinking, what if, what knew I would be at the next Olympics working in some capacity. And I didn't want to be there thinking, what if, what if I would have tried and made a second Olympic. Oh, cause you could have had a walk-off from your five medals. I could have a hundred, a hundred percent been done. Yeah. In 2008, you could have had a walk-off. Absolutely. Like I did it, you know, but, but I loved the sport. And so I was like, I'm young. Why, why would I stop just because you achieved one thing?

Are you able to relate to what most people struggle with in life? Or does that seem a little hazy? What is it that most people struggle with in life? Well, I'll take a couple liberties myself here. Is that I think purpose is really hard to know what am I doing here? And I think most people work really hard and are pretty tired and they don't have the relationship that they would like to have with their spouse, with their kids, with themselves, with mother nature. And so the intensity and pace of work without a deep rudder of what purpose is

and the sacrifice of relationships, I think it's a pretty tough go for most people in that way. And so that's what I think is the hard part of life. And I'm wondering what the hard part of life is for you. Well, it's funny that you say all those things because those are things that I definitely struggle with today. Those aren't any things that I struggled with when I was competing. Purpose was very clear. Everything was clear. Yeah.

Right. Your relationship with your coaches and your quote unquote teammates. Definitely. You're not really teammates. Teammates. Once you make the team. Yeah. Exactly.

And we're. The once a year, once a lifetime team. You're wearing USA. Right. Yeah. So. No, I think. The purpose is really teammates. Teammates once you make the team. You're wearing USA. So the purpose is really clear. That's one of the things that sport does offer is a clear purpose. But then when it's gone, you have none. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health.

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A hundred percent and educated and healthy. Set yourself up for success because success is hard, but set yourself up in the best possible way that you can. And the same as like a competition, right? You're going to physically prepare. You're going to mentally prepare. You're going to do conditioning, strength, everything in order to set yourself up for success. Well, let's go back. So that's a philosophy. Success is hard. I guess you could say the other, the opposite, which is success is easy, but it's, it's hard. No. Yeah. I believe it's very hard. And how you could say the other, the opposite, which is success is easy, but it's, it's hard. No. Yeah. I believe it's very hard. And how are you defining success? Like what's

your, I've always struggled with defining success. Um, because I don't think it's the same for two people. That's cool. So for you, how do you, how are you thinking about it now? Or no, let's, let's stay in gymnastics. Let's do part, part one and part two. During your gymnastics phase, like what was success at that point?

Winning the Olympics. So it was outcome. Yeah, it was like, I'd be lying to say if like, you know, success would have just been defined by the journey. Like I, I would have loved to believe that,

you know, but I think for me personally, it wasn't something that my parents like instilled in me. I instilled that in myself, but yeah, success to me was being the best in the world. Your best or the best? What was your primary focus? If I was my best, I was the best in the world. Like truly, like in that moment. Did you know that? So that was the moment. That's a cool statement. I didn't believe it until my dad gave me another sticky note. So wait, hold on. Dad's mental skills program was really around sticky notes.

Can we get a deal here? Yeah, that's good. He wrote down my routines. We have two parts to each score. He wrote down the difficulty scores and the execution scores. The bare minimum, like just like landing on your feet,

not having the best routine of your life. Right. And totaled up my total all around and said, look at the score. Then he brought out the results from the last three competitions. And he goes, look at your total score and look at the top scores.

Where do you find yourself? Between five tenths to a point, I was in the lead by just doing four decent routines. And when he showed- Because your skills were so hard? Yeah. The combination of my execution and the difficulty that I had, if I could just do four good routines, which hadn't happened. So he was giving you evidence. He was giving you a reason. Like literally proof. Here you go on paper.

This, I got to meet dad because this is something that. He's like a, like truly like a, like it's insane how, yeah. I love what you're, because, okay. Confidence is a cornerstone, right? Confidence comes from what you say to yourself, but it's got to be backed in something that is real. You can't fake it till you make it. I'm sorry if you like it.

I'm going to just say stop. I think that only for me that works on social media. Like, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, sure. Portray the life that you want to portray on social media, but it's, there's, it's, there's no reality. No, it's quite dangerous. So, so confidence is based on what you say to yourself. It it's, there's no reality. No, it's quite dangerous. I think so. So confidence is based on what you say to yourself. It's got to be grounded in reality. And as a coach or a

life partner or a parent or a teammate, I, part of my job to help you be your best is to give you evidence and reasons where you can go, Oh, yeah. So that's what we would do up at the Seattle Seahawks. Coach Carroll was so good at it, is that we would get our asses handed to us on a Sunday. And then Monday, he's showing highlights about like how good we did at certain things we've been working on. And he's like, yeah, yeah.

If we had one more quarter, if we have one more quarter, who knows? Like it was always optimistic. And it was all, we would all, like the amount of time to be able to show people what they're capable of so they can believe in themselves. It sounds like your dad did the same thing. And he said it once, he showed me once and never again. Yeah.

And that's all I needed to know. And it was then. That's not how we did it. Well, because like, you know, we don't, we compete twice a year. Like it's, we don't have any. Would you watch film? Yes, absolutely. I was such a visual person.

He had huge screens. And at the time it was a program called Dartfish. I remember Dartfish. Yeah. And so he would side by side and on top of each other of like yourself on top of each other, basically on the screen and like. But not you and Nadia. Not you and Nadia.

No, not me and anybody else. It was you and a 10. No, like me, me and me and myself. Yeah, that's awesome. Like this turn and then the turn right before or this competition the competition before like why did you like go crooked oh it's like your left shoulder was on this right here like it was just very would he sorry would he point out the correction or the the good quote-unquote um Depending on the situation. So if it was like a skill that I was like, I couldn't.

I'm such a visual person that I literally had to see myself do it to understand. Even like if you would be telling me something. Yeah, sure. Point your toes, whatever. But if it was a skill that was, you know, very difficult and I would just be like constantly going, like as if I'm like literally standing like this, like on the beat, like, and I felt like I was going straight. Like I had to see it myself to be like, oh, okay. I get it. Not that I didn't trust him, but like the body to mind.

I remember the first time I saw myself in film, like my coach would say, stay low, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I am. And it shows. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, I am going straight. You're literally like halfway up and he's like, oh, you are? It's great feedback. Would you use your imagination? Did you do mental imagery? Oh gosh. Yeah. Visualization was the number one for me thing that I, that I literally only did like how often oh when like because at the Olympics that was like I didn't think about anything I was constantly visual like at the Olympic all-around finals I would just like there are moments where gosh I like didn't even get to like any of this but I had the dream the night before the competition anyways and I visualized the whole competition in the way like down to taking one step like

crazy crazy things that I had never done my whole life any competition and so I knew I woke up knowing exactly what was going to happen and it happened exactly as it did in my dream but I and I remember every single competition before that I would tell my dad I was so nervous I was going to be sick and he would you know he got used to obviously that and knew what to say and and I would never be sick like I was just like in my head like panic mode for a split second and for the first time in my life at the Olympics in the all-around finals. I did not have that. And he started freaking out. But of course I didn't tell him. I didn't tell him.

Oh my God. Everybody was like, is everything okay? And I was like, what do you, what do you, what does everyone, like, can everyone leave me alone? Yeah, right. Like. And yeah. And I just remember sitting there looking at the beam,

watching, I was last up on beam before the last rotation. I was in the lead. And I remember just sitting on the ground watching the beam like down like the length of the beam. Every single girl in front of me go hit a clean routine, hit a clean. And I was just literally not really watching them. I was visualizing my routine. And my dad came up to me and he's like, what are you doing? Like, let's get up. Let's get moving. You know, like you're like there's two more people. And I was like, OK. Like I was so in the zone and like my mom kind of instilled that in me. She was actually my first coach when I was like five. She would always say, you know, be a horse at a horse race, put your blinders on. And so that's what I did. Like I was present. I was there. I didn't like close my eyes, like whatever anybody needs to do. But for me, I was like so focused and so able to go into that moment. And I would just visualize, not just visualize the routine. I would visualize from start to finish the best possible way that I could do

that exact, not even just fully routine, but skill, step, movement, like every single thing from start to finish just over and over again. Could you feel it? Yeah, absolutely. See it in color? Absolutely. Yeah. As if you were in it. As if I was like, I literally living it. Watching from the fan perspective, watching like a drone? You were in your own eyes? I was actually like on the beam. Yeah. And then would you ever put yourself in a compromise situation where you had a wobble or you made a mistake?

No. No, it was always like to nails. No, because I've always felt, I've never talked to someone like you about this. So, but normally I like to tell like when I'm, you know, at a gym and tell little girls like, they're like, but like, I'm scared to fall. And I say, okay, so you have to start thinking not I'm scared to fall, but you have to start thinking that I'm going to make this the best beam routine in my life. And how do I do that? Right? So your,

your mind can't think of two things at the exact same time. So if your mind is hearing, I don't want to fall. I don't want to mess up. I don't want to split the beam. Your mind isn't here that don't want to, it just hears fall, split the beam, mess up all these things. And what do you think is going to happen if it's fall, fall, fall, fall? You're going to fall. So instead of like, why ever put yourself in that? Instead, think, what are those little corrections that your coach has told you on every single skill in order to get to be that the best version and the best skill that you've done? Like you're setting yourself up for success of that one skill and then the next skill and the next skill. You are relentless. You really put this to work over and over and over again. I mean, when I had my ankle surgery is I think when my dad actually taught me this. And he said, I wasn't able to do anything for a little bit. And he made me come into the gym still conditioning. But then

he would make me go to each event and just sit on the ground and do five beam routines, just like all my teammates were doing beam routines, but in my mind. And that was the first time that like I really ever did that. And he was like, but you can't just like go through it in your head. Like you have to feel it. And I was like, how do I feel it in my head? Like I'm not even, I have a boot on my foot. Like how do I feel it? I can't even walk. And I felt it.

It took me like probably a few days to like really like feel it. So yeah, honestly, it was all him. Like everything. I'm not athletic. Full circle. Yeah, he just, yeah, I mean, truly. Okay, last question. For any of the gals that are going to make the team for Paris,

if you could wish them well in one way, what would it be? Be present. I think that's the one. I wouldn't say it's a regret, but I had a countdown at the Olympics on my bed, like on a sticky note, to go home. Because I was just, I don't know. I wasn't miserable. I wasn't like anything besides so excited to go home. Like we had a long year of training. It was like a training camp. It was like two Olympic trials. Like the process of it was, you know, so physically and mentally and emotionally draining that I couldn't wait

to go home and sleep in my own bed. So it was like, it was a combination of that, of crossing the days off, like literally crossing the days off that I was almost rushed, trying to rush through the whole experience. And I, and I have to say, I've kind of always been like that my whole life. You know, when I was nine, I wanted to be 10 to be double digits. And then I wanted to be a teenage 13. And then I wanted to hurry up and be 16 to drive. Like all of these things that I was never just present and living in the moment.

I was constantly like, okay, put a check by it. What's next? And I would say to just that the only time I ever had a moment where I truly was present, I stopped and even just looked around because I was always like, don't look around, you know, stay focused, was the Olympic trials when I fell on my face. And I truly just was present for the first time because I knew it was the last time. And so, you know, I think that for them, you don't know if it's your last time. You know, you don't know if what the outcome is going to be. You don't know how you're going to feel at the you know, at the end of it. And so if you could just have, you know, it doesn't have to be all the, you know, constantly, but maybe a moment a day, a moment like every competition and just, you know, gratitude, I feel like is something that is so easy to just kind of forget in a moment like that, you know, to be grateful to be there. Because I feel like when you're a perfectionist

and when you are the best, that's the only thing you can think about is the outcome. And sometimes I feel like the importance of just being present and grateful is so much stronger than the feeling of the outcome. It is so great to sit with you and thank you for sharing the way that you shaped your language. There's a contour to it that leads me to believe how much you've practiced what you say and you're walking the walk and walking the talk and talking the walk and the whole thing. Thank you for sharing it. And I'm excited to see the next chapter of what you're doing. And what a beacon for excellence.

What a beacon for being at home with yourself wherever you are. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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