Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Navigating Conflict, Relationships & The "Self Help" Industry | Ask Me Anything Vol. 7 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

We're back! And on a Monday! Volume 7 of our Ask Me Anything series... let's do this.High performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais jumps into the Mastery Lab to answer YOUR questions about the art of listening, flow state, how (and when) to be vulnerable, navigating conflict in intimate relationships, the major problems with the self-help industry, and so much more.We’re stoked to announce that we’re going to be splitting the Ask Me Anything (AMA) series off from our regular Wednesday podcasts to its own spot—once-a-month on Mondays now.This means you’ll see the AMA show up on your podcast feeds on a Monday and the regular podcast programming will continue on Wednesdays!_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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You may have noticed something a little different about this one. It's coming out on a Monday. And that's because we've received so much great feedback on the AMA series that we've decided to break it off into its own slot on our feed. So moving forward, keep an eye out on the AMAs coming to you once a month on a Monday. If you don't already subscribe to Finding Mastery, please hit the follow button on whatever podcast player you're listening to. So that way they will automatically show up in your feed.

And if you are subscribed to the newsletter, you'll receive updates there as well. And if you're not subscribed there, feel free to head over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. Okay, so let's get right into it. I'm really excited to welcome back the one, the only O'Neill Cespedes as our co-host for this month's AMA. As always, we have a blast answering your questions, and you took us to some really interesting, insightful places. In this episode, we cover how to be a great listener, the benefits and costs of vulnerability in leadership, navigating defensiveness in intimate relationships, and what is wrong with the self-help industry.

We get into so much more as well. So as a reminder, please feel free to email info at findingmastery.net with feedback or questions you may have for our next month's AMA. So with that, let's jump right into volume seven of Finding Mastery's Ask Me Anything. O'Neill, we're back at it. We're back at it, Dr. Mike. We're back at it. It's great to see you.

It's great to see you as well. I forward to like your take as much as the questions that are coming through so i appreciate that i look forward to your responses yeah okay good usually some of these questions are applied to some issues i may have so you know works well yeah you know it's um i never know how i'm going to answer them yeah and so i guess at some level it's as interesting to me of what's going to come out as well. So I think that's the excitement though. Right. They're getting truth,

nothing rehearsed, you know? So. All right. Well, let's jump into them. Let's jump into them. All right.

Suki says, Dr. Mike, you are an excellent listener. How would you teach the skill of listening? Thank you, Suki. I haven't had a formal training in listening, so I'm not going to borrow for some theory or something, but I'll tell you how I do it. I'll tell you my experience in it,

is that if I don't care, it's really hard to listen. So the first order business is like really caring. And so if I start there, it's like caring about what? Caring about the person, caring about what they're trying to sort out, caring about the idea that we're trying'm pulled somewhere else. So I'm listening, listening, listening, and then some other thought enters or something happens to my concentration. And so I need to know how to bring that back. And so if I follow that distraction for an extended period of time, I'm missing really important information.

And so it's having the psychological skill to be able to navigate that deep focus. So I have to extend my ability to focus from let's call it three seconds to eight seconds to 16 seconds. And that's a trainable skill. And then secondarily is to have the skill to come back to the task at hand, which is listening. So that's kind of the main rocks, if you will, caring and then working ahead of time to extend my ability to concentrate and focus.

And then when my mind does wonder how to bring it back, that's why mindfulness is like an important concept and strategy to be able to employ well ahead of listening to anything. The second thing related to that is like I'm less interested in the mechanical words that that are taking place and equally or more interested in the emotion that they're coming from. So it's like trying to map, listening right below the surface. Where is this coming from? What's happening? Where is the deeper language taking place, the emotional language? How is that taking place? So that's kind of like a constellation of ideas that work for me. Wow. I mean, you just answered a couple

of my questions because I was thinking that I was like, most of the time, if someone's telling me something and if it doesn't pertain to me, I don't care. I just don't care. And then if I'm the one telling someone something, I assume they don't care. So I try to dress it up in the best way possible. You know, at first I'm like, you're a great listener and you're an amazing person. So you're the person I want to talk to because I think you would give me some good advice. So you butter them up.

I butter them up so they can want to care. And like, you're really important too. Exactly. And then I'll tell it in this like cinematic way, but I never gave thought to the emotional connection to it. Because if someone's telling me something and I don't care, but they're hurt over it, I want to hear it and I want to give them a good response. And yeah. Yeah. It's that second layer that I think one, if you care, you're trying to understand the thoughts and the emotions that are taking place. So I found that when I am tired, when I'm doing too much, when I'm not

getting my recoveries practices in place and I've got a fatigue, it's hard for me to hold that care. And so that's why I know for me to be my very best, I have to have that love affair with the idea or the person that is like unfolding as it's going. And if I'm, if I'm just trying to take care of myself, it's too much. I can't, I can't do it. Yeah. I think that's interesting because, you know, at times when people are talking to me or expressing some sort of issue they may have, I feel like it's double Dutch. I'm hearing them, but it's kind of like that Charlie Brown teacher thing. And all I'm thinking about is it's my turn to jump or jump a rope it's my turn to jump I just want to tell you what you should do now you should do it I mean how do you avoid that well I don't know I mean

care more about the person rather than what you're saying like you know like but I it is listening to understand and you can't really understand until you get the completeness of it. Sometimes like, so here, here's something that would take place in traditional therapy when I would see a client or an athlete is that it felt like we were dancing, double dutching almost, but you know, for let's call it 40 minutes. And then the last five minutes where it's kind of wrapping up our session, all of a sudden, all the really important stuff happens. And later in my kind of career arc, I wanted to extend that to, or push that back to like the first five minutes, all the good stuff comes. So what ends up taking place is

if you're, if you're just double dutching, trying to get in and have it's that's about you, not about the thing that you're trying to wrestle down or sort out with the person and what ends up happening is the listening to understand you need more information if you really want to understand and so i think i find that too you know in conversations where like i hear something i'm like i want to get in and then if i can just be patient wait and be patient it brings up another point like the idea of patience is, I think it's a really important skill that we're going to start to wrestle with. I was up at, let's call it a Fortune 10 company, and it was a bunch of CRHROs. So big people guiding folks, you know, CHRO, Chief Human Resource Officer.

And there was about 75 of them. And this was a theme that they're saying they're seeing this show up in industry and in families where patience is wanting. And so having the patience to listen, like you are patiently listening to me right now. And I notice it, actually. I feel it, actually, when you listen. I mean, you speak so eloquently. So, you know, that's not it.

Yeah. But I see you working. So I appreciate it. I'm like, listen to him. Listen to him., that's not it. Yeah. But I, but I see you working. So I appreciate it. I'm like, listen to him. Listen to him. Don't double Dutch. Good.

Thank you. Suki. All right. So Sean asks Dr. Mike, I'm loving the AMAs. I heard you talk about vulnerability in the Robert, uh,

Waldinger episode and would love if you could expand on it. In my experience as a professional athlete, I've tended to lose faith in leaders who acknowledge that they were scared or uncertain about what to do. In your experience working with enterprise, business leaders, does a leader's vulnerability make a team stronger

or does it reduce trust and belief in the leader? That's a good question. It can cut both ways. So vulnerability means a demonstration of courage, a demonstration of bravery. Because I mean, think about like the analogy of a lobster, right? For the lobster to grow, it needs to come out of its shell, be totally vulnerable to go inhabit a new shell that's a bit bigger. And that's a bit what vulnerability really looks like from an emotional social standpoint, is that there's a moment where people could rip you apart.

They could shred you. But the reason you do it is because it's required for your growth and it's required for the growth of the collective. And that's a big deal. That is a big deal because the old way of thinking about vulnerability is weakness. The new way of thinking about vulnerability is weakness. The new way of thinking about vulnerability is that it's a demonstration of courage and bravery. And it's something that is required for the greater good

or sometimes for the person alone. So if somebody is vulnerable and they're kind of a mess and they're not thinking clearly and they're all over the shop with direction that they're suggesting we go or there is something that's being portrayed like I don't know if I should trust this person. It can be a problem.

So I don't want to be naive and say, oh, it's great, it solves all things, da-da-da-da. However, if a leader't, if you, if a leader doesn't demonstrate vulnerability, people don't know how to follow. They don't know what to believe in because that person isn't fully invested or don't, doesn't seem like they're fully invested. So I double down when there's truth and we're working from truth and a radical commitment to be honest in the experience. And when somebody is radically committed to being honest,

it's going to require some vulnerability. And I'm like, yeah, I see you. Cool. Like, I'm a little nervous too. I'm scared too. I've been thinking about that too. Thank you for calling it out. Is that how you feel about it?

Okay, so what are we going to do about it? And so that type of leadership, I think, is the modern leader, somebody that can work with their emotions. And I'm not suggesting that a modern leader, somebody that demonstrates vulnerability and falls into a thousand pieces. I'm not saying that I'm saying there's, there, there are demonstrated skills required. So that's why we need to practice it before we go on stage and practice it, you know, or experience it. So how do you practice it? Mindfulness, honest conversations with people that you really trust and to get good at it because emotions are real. Okay.

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You do or you don't agree? As much as I don't want to agree, I agree. Because I feel like, and then I definitely need clarity on this. I feel like it's different when it's sports. Like if I'm on the Lakers and we down by 15 and there's like, you know, seven minutes left and Brian tell me and the rest of the guys, man, I'm scared.

I don't know what we gonna do, man. I am gonna look at him like, hold up, you Brian. I expect you to be like, yo, we about to bust there. We about to come back with it. I expect that, right? Okay, so that's cool. Like, I'm glad you're bringing up that context because I'm nodding my head to you right now too.

That's right, there's moments, right? And so when when would it show up for you in the right way where you're like yeah this person's about it they are about it they are fully in and if you're fully in and committed to understanding the potential of yourself and others you know the team that means you got to get to the edge and at the edge you are not buttoned up so if you're going to play it safe and, and, and kind of stay in that comfort zone as, as comforting as it is, we'll never know what we're capable of. And so when we get to the edge and we're not buttoned up, that's when it's, you know, we need some honesty

about it. So like when, for you, when does it show up properly? Cause I agree with you in the example you just gave. When vulnerability shows up. Yeah. When, when does it show up properly? Cause I agree with you in the example you just gave. When vulnerability shows up? Yeah. When, when do you appreciate it? I can't believe I'm about to say this. In relationships. I can't believe you're saying it because? Cause I've never, I've, oh, Dr. Mike,

you don't make me say this. Come on, come on. Cause I've been, oh, Dr. Mike, you don't make me say this. Come on, man. Come on. Because I've been working through my emotions and learning to be more vulnerable and open up and susceptible to looking weak and whatnot. Because, I mean, obviously as little boys, we play with toys, with guns,

and be tough, stop crying, get up, and all these things that have been ingrained in us since we were children. Right. So I had that same system, that same schema and messages as well. Yeah. A hundred percent. So I think in relationship friendships, you know, as I'm getting older, you know, male friendships and friends say, man, I love you, man.

Or, you know, how are you doing? Checking in on you, things of that nature that were, you know, something that was unfamiliar. So in those times it shows up for some reason, and I don't know if this is some sort of mental block, but for some reason it just won't show up in sports. Because I'm like, if we're, you know, lie to me. Lie to me and tell me we're going to be good. Tell me we're going to be good.

But if you're over there like, man, then I'm going to start being like a man and so forth and so on. So I'll tell you, I'll tell you a cool moment. This was, I don't know if this is public, so I'm going to keep it, I'll keep it back.

But this is a championship team, the team that won the whole thing. Okay. And at the beginning of the season, and that team had been to the championships, uh, two or three times in over three years. Okay.

So they were in the final dance, but couldn't close it down. Okay. So they were in the final dance, but couldn't close it down. Yeah. And the beginning of the final year, the coach says, Hey, everybody. I don't know if I know how to get this done. I don't know if I'm your coach. I know how to get you to the finals, but there's something not right where we're not winning it. It's hard to get there two, three, four years in a row. We're there, but we just can't quite figure out how to lock it down. And so imagine that vulnerability. And what happened is the locker room squared up with them are like, ah, we see you. Okay. You're in it, aren't you? You're really in this. All right. You're not

going anywhere. So it created, it congealed, it created a bond between the coach and the athletes in a way that was like inseparable because they were really in it together. So that's a vulnerability that I go, oh my God, yes, that's modern leadership. Now, when bullets are flying and you're like, guys, I'm scared, maybe, maybe not. But the idea is like, know how to conduct yourself in an honest way and not lose your head during those moments where they're public facing. So again, I'll say it again, practice working with your thoughts and emotions in a vulnerable way with yourself and with other people before you take the next step in front of many more people. And I love how you bring up the LeBron example,

because there is a timing element to it. And in those moments, let's say it is final minutes of the game, game seven, whatever, whatever scenario with all that intensity, there is something really powerful. If you're practicing honesty, I'm more interested in honesty. And then the follow on is a vulnerability because it's, there's a vulnerability to be really honest. And those that are fully committed to be their very best together, it requires a deep honesty to get better period.

Okay. So in that moment, if LeBron or somebody were to say, look, and he looks around and he says, look, I'm not going to lie. I'm feeling this thing right now. I'm feeling it. And then comma, and then can commit where they want to go or where he wants them to go or what is believable about what they need to do in that moment. Okay. So it's like, it's a comma and then a vision. So it's like, I'm not gonna lie. I'm, I'm feeling this too, guys. We're tight. I'm tight comma. We got to loosen the fuck up. Let's go fucking drop it and just be savages right now. This is what we train for. Get me the rock.

I'm in it. Let's go. Something along those lines. So it's the comma with the vision that is materially important. Yeah. Okay. You know, as I was listening to you talk about that, it made me think about that whole statement about what defines a hero. And a hero and a coward are the same thing.

But it's just the hero decides. It's what the hero does despite his fear as opposed to the coward. So when you put it like that, it makes plenty of sense. And I love that we're talking about vulnerability because we're really talking about fears. And what we're afraid of is to be pushed out of the tribe. We're afraid if we don't do right,

that we're not good enough. Like that fear is pervasive. It's the fear of people's opinions. It's a fear of rejection. It's the fear of not being accepted that is a primary driver for so many people. Thank you, Sean. Actually, there's a part two to Sean's question here. How can I get better at instigating difficult conversations?

When I know I need to talk to a loved one or a family member and I know the conversation might be unpleasant, I procrastinate. I'll find a new reason to put it off and I'll act like everything is fine. As if I'm afraid to stand up for myself because I don't want to cause conflict with the people in my life. Even though I'm fully aware that not standing up for myself will be worse in the long run. Any advice? I mean, is this question about speaking truth to power? Is that what you're hearing in this question? You know, personally, I can relate to this question

1000% because I major in avoiding difficult conversations. I mean, I'm a master at it. And I know, like Sean said, I know in the long run that it'll And I know, like Sean said, I know in the long run that it'll cause more problems, but that instantaneous conflict, I try to put it off and avoid it as much as possible. I mean, this resonates with me a great deal.

Yeah, so let me double down on this. It's like, what is it about the difficult conversation that's so hard for you? Oh, the difficulty. The difficulty part of it. You know, whether it's about money or a relationship or something they're doing that I don't like or something that I'm doing, it's, hey, I got to go to work.

Can we talk about this later? Or, oh man, I got this phone call to take. You know, I've even myself made up calls or texts. I'm like, oh no, something's going on at home. Yeah, I got to go. Can we talk got this phone call to take. I've even, myself, made up calls or texts. I'm like, oh no, something's going on at home. Yeah, I gotta go. Can we talk about this another time? Yeah. It's a cowardice, obviously, way to go about things.

But I just can relate to this. You just don't want the uncomfortable aura of that conversation. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that i'm not gonna be a hero here by any means i'm saying yeah i know exactly what you're talking about and so what's hard about them is that they're just emotionally charged and what happens like to me it feels like there's this threshold where and as i've spent more time practicing the threshold is extended but there's this threshold I bump up against where it's like, I could fall into a thousand pieces or I could get,

I'm so uncomfortable. I just get pissed. And so it's so much harder to stay in the uncomfortable, vulnerable, sad, anxiousness, saying things that are hard to say than it is to get angry. Angry is easy. So when I get up against that threshold and I'm uncomfortable for an extended period of time, my fear is that I just eject out of that and get angry. And so I'm not as concerned about pushing it off. I'm more concerned about extending that threshold so that I have more room to play. I have more room to not be so triggered by a statement or a question or an eye roll or whatever that i can make it i can make that about information as opposed to make it about me and so there's another kind of parallel idea which is the unlocks happen in those in those

edges the unlocks of the great relationship that you want to have, the unlock of like, or the demonstration, if you're closer to being the human you want to be, only happen when there's high heat, only happen when it's hard. It's easy to be me when it's easy to be me. Same probably for you. It's when it's hard to be you is when you know if you have done the right work. Same is true in sport. Same is true the right work same is true in sport same is true as business same is true in relationships about the whole it's easy to be me when it's easy to be me that's true i mean i think you know in my mind how i i how i work it out is man i've been i've been through enough for today was a rough day or you know i i've struggled in whatever thing that i've

struggled i'll just pull something out of here doesn't matter i'll just pull it out of the air like i've struggled trying to get this thing done for so long i don't feel like having this camera i don't want to fire this guy or i don't want to talk to this person about what i don't want to deal with this difficulty right now i want to run away from it and again, this is like a coward way to go about things, but I just wanna run away from it and maybe it'll disappear or maybe they'll go talk to somebody else about it. Maybe they'll just quit.

You know? They packed their bags and left a letter and said, I knew I was a headache. Maybe something miraculous like that. So like on this note what what is it that you're trying to work out in your life like what are the things that you're like these are really important areas for me to get better at yeah conflict resolution because you said something a moment ago that really stuck out with me how anger can come up out of it and in my my the the

fastest way to a solution for me is when I have to engage in an uncomfortable conversation, I already have the gun loaded and in my back pocket, like, okay, I know this is gonna get bad, so I'm gonna shoot you. I'm gonna shoot you before you say anything. How do you shoot people? Like, what do you do? Verbally, 100% verbally.

Yeah, no, I know, but like, you attack something? I'll say something that I know that they, oh man, I'm just going to reveal some bad things about myself. Don't judge me out there. Something personal that they told me about themselves or something, some issue, I know. Dude, you see the disdain that I have for you.

That's my worst trait. I'll remember something so that happened to you yes that was that was a tactic that somebody used on you which is like you just create some barriers or whatever and so it's not safe to go all in because it gets flipped around yes later yeah right 100 yeah so that's it's like what were your early schemas what were your early schemas? What were your early messages or the early forming ideas that you had about being a thriving adult male? What were some of those things? Not to show any vulnerability. I'm Jamaican, and the way my mother raised me was don't tell anybody your business.

Don't let them in on anything in your life because they can use it against you. I was literally fed that every day. I was reared on that.. I was weird on that. Do you want to change that or does that work? I mean, in some relationships, it can be a detriment. In some other relationships, it's a strength because I'm like, okay, I see how you are with other people and I hear what you say about other people to me.

So it's a good thing that I don't reveal everything to you because then you would do the same thing to me. That's right. In a personal relationship, no way because you don't other people to me. So I, so it's a good thing that I don't reveal everything to you because then you would do the same thing to me. That's right. In a personal relationship, no way, because you don't let people in, you know, you don't tell them anything. You're like, so you want to use part of it in some relationships and circles and not use it in others. Precisely. Yeah. Which it is, if it's a well-grooved skill to be able to have that distance and that, that sense of, that barrier then maybe you can do that you know but you'd have to intentionally practice a new skill because that old skill that old move that's been really good for you you know a little if somebody shows

you their arm and you're going to put them in a triangle yeah like now i'm going to show you my arm because i'm going to do a heel lock yeah did I just get that right? No, you got that totally wrong. Okay. But I get where you're going. Okay, good. You know where I'm going with it, right? Exactly where you're going. There's a double entendre that you would be able to play with, but more specifically is that you'd have to really work on that if you want to do it.

Okay, this is a question from Miguel. This is a really interesting question, Dr. Mike. Miguel says he's been in a relationship for seven years. We generally have a good dynamic. I love her as much as I did when we first met, but there is an area where I get tripped up. If she complains about something at work or with the kids or social life, I'm a very good listener. No problems. But in her complaint, if her complaint is directed at me, I have a much more difficult time with that. You know, something gets threatened because I feel the need to defend myself rather than just listening to her experience. I'll flip over to my experience and then she gets frustrated and so do I.

The question is, how do I do this part of the relationship better? Is there a high performance approach? And thanks in advance. Yeah, that is a cool question that I think that that's really a common experience or, I mean, do you relate to that? I relate to it. Okay. So when I'm at my best, the conversation is met with an agreement, like let's get better. Let's grow from something. Whatever the dialogue is. When I'm at my worst, the conversation is about me defending myself.

And so the Gottman Institute had a really interesting bit of research. And they found that if you have four of these characteristics I'm about to describe, the likelihood of divorce within two years was astronomical. And they go in order for the most part. So when somebody perceives that there's a critique happening of the person. So from critique, we go to number two, defensiveness. And then defensiveness can lead to number three, stonewalling. Stonewalling is like, you got to come back to me. Like I'm, this is not my problem. This is, and like, I'm not going to talk to you about this, or I'm not going to talk to you period until you come and apologize. Yeah. So that's the only way. And then number four is contempt and contempt is basically exactly

what it sounds like. Like, I hate you. I hate you. And you can say it, or you can feel it and you can roll your eyes and have body language around it so if you have all four of those the likelihood of divorce is really high and where it starts this question is really about critique and defensiveness which is like the foot in the door approach to maybe down the road getting to contempt so how do you be less defensive is be more interested about what the other person's experience is, be more interested about the commitment to get better and less about like this is about me defending my early childhood drama in my life that's showing up as an adult. That's really what's happening at some level is as adults, we're trying to figure out how to be better than the early relationships we had in our life and to do them better. So I don't know if I gave a concrete answer to it, but as a high performance approach, a relationship is required where there's a yin and yang about triggers.

And if those triggers come up, how do we get better through them? We got to stay patient. We got to stay in it, stay committed to the shared agreement early in the relationship. Like let's go somewhere together. Let's do something together. Let's be special together. And I'm trusting you. And when I'm tired, when I'm over it, when I'm fatigued, when I'm like exhausted to your point earlier, like when I'm just like, listen, I've had so much going on today, this now too, you know, and that's, I don't know. There's not an easy way through it, but it's rec. I know I'm better when I can recognize when I'm quick to trigger on defensiveness. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high

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and use the code Finding Mastery 20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's jump right back into the conversation. Okay. So let me ask you this question on behalf of Miguel and myself and all of us that, Miguel, I'm looking out for you, bro. For myself, I'm gonna use me as an example. I won't drag Miguel into this, but what if you feel like they're wrong? What they're saying about you is wrong.

And I'm sure most of the time that whole defensiveness and all that stuff comes from that. They may be saying something in particular that you're selfish, that you always do selfish things. And in your mind, you're like, you're wrong. I don't do anything selfish. Why are you calling me selfish? Obviously, you know, you become defensive and you attack and, you know, possibly stonewalling occurs. I know I do that. How do you get outside of that? Even if you feel like he or she is dead wrong about what they're saying about you, how do you get outside of that even if you even if you feel like he or she is dead wrong about what they're saying

about you how do you get outside of that because i find for me that's the biggest issue i can't get outside of the fact that i may feel attacked especially on something that i don't feel like applies to me it's warranted yeah yeah right usually it doesn't that's why the defensiveness comes up right because it's like whoa how could you say that? Of all the things you say that, right? So, you know, okay. If we're to do this and craft this in a sophisticated way, you and I, let's say you and I are having the conversations and you're feeling defensive about something I said, is that the most powerful thing you can do is talk about your experience when I say that. Because now you're creating and forcing me to understand you.

And there's a bit of vulnerability in that. So if you say things like, all right, Mike, I hear what you just said. And I got to tell you, it feels like there's a big hole in my stomach right now. And I can't tell you how sad I am when I hear you say that. Cause I don't, I don't understand me that way. And it feels awful to think that you see me that way. So if you did something like that, I would be like, Oh God, what did I just do? Dr. Mike's that's being vulnerable yes right yeah that's exactly right so you talk about yourself in it and then again that's a commitment you have to make prior to to be honest yeah right and and it's in that honesty that does this slight aikido in

the relationships where now all of a sudden i am i am i am forced forced to see you because you've just said, hey, I'm not okay with what just happened. If you come back to me with a defensiveness or a counter move, an attack, now I'm on my heels, you're on your toes, that's not going to work either. So now you've just put me in the same situation that you were in. It's safer, but we're not going to go anywhere. The other kind of general rule, and it's overused, but it's just great, is that don't use the you word. Well, you do this and you do that. And so when you're pointing, you've got three fingers pointing back at you. So there's a real challenge in that. And then the third nuance I would suggest is the always and never. And so if I'm sophisticated in my language and I say something to you and, no, if I'm

unsophisticated in my language and I say, well, O'Neill, you know you always, I'm wrong. I'm absolutely wrong. And it's creating like this big tidal wave experience for you that you're always a certain way. You're always selfish or something. And if I can become more sophisticated and say, you know, when you didn't pick up my call and I knew you were looking at my phone or you were looking at your phone, like, and then I'm going to go, I just like, I had this moment, like I don't matter in the relationship and I want to talk to you about it as opposed to, you know what, O'Neal, you never pick up your phone when I call, you're always more interested

in something else. So that black and white always or never is from the get-go going to be a problem for the other person to, to be able to digest digest it's like a tidal wave washing over them we gotta be vulnerable Miguel again again again yeah it's a vulnerability thing what if like when the person is you know accusing you of something or they're they're saying this is some habit or something that you do that they don't like and you feel I'm not saying this is me I'm just this, this is an example. And you feel, again, not me, that this may be stemming from some trauma from their childhood or something that went on in their life prior to me coming into their life. Okay. The insight, that insight is really rich because that is like, let's call it 95% of the time,

that's what's actually happening. We've got these early childhood, and I'm going to use the technical word schema again, like we've got these early childhood narratives and experiences that have helped shape the way that we understand the world, what's safe and what's not safe, what's okay and what's not okay. And then you and I are having a conversation and I'm tripped about something. I'm keyed up and I put it on to you. Maybe it's something you did. Maybe you rolled your eyes or looked at your phone or like had your phone out, pick it on your phone again, had your phone out, uh, at the dinner table or whatever. And, and it just, it flashes up

all of this old stuff where people weren't noticing me. Now I'm going to bring a full thrust into the conversation and I'm coming at you because it's my stuff. It's like there's a lot that's kicked up in this. And so when something, here's an interesting kind of rule of thumb. When something seems bigger or doesn't seem to make sense, it's likely that it's stemming from some earlier trauma, some earlier experience. So that's a good rule of

thumb for me. When it's all of a sudden big, I need to pay attention, but I need to also, in that moment, I'll tell a funny story about my wife, my relationship with my wife, is that what I need to do is go, oh, okay. And when I'm having a big, massive experience and she looks at me like, what's happening? I'm like, oh, that's my stuff. So there's a narrative. There's not a narrative. There's a calibration that you can have with yourself and or with your partner when it's big and it doesn't seem to have clarity, clarity. It doesn't make sense. It's likely earlier stuff. So one of my mentors says to me, this is about my wife. When one of my mentors, I was going through some stuff with my wife and he says to me, Mike, you don't, you don't have to like fully entangle in every conversation.

You can take a breath. You can create healthy space between you and your wife and you can just remind yourself, you know, like this is not about you, Mike. This is, this is about the relationship. This is about the triggers that she's having and you need to be just part of it and witness it and be compassionate with it, but you don't have to solve stuff. You don't have to fix it. You don't have to even be part of the solution. And it's probably maybe not even your fault if it's a huge response, but you do owe it to be there and to be present with the experience that she's having. And for me, that goes a long way.

I'm not like, I got to go, you're full of shit. I'm over this. Like, what? Are you kidding me? Come back when it's better, when you've got this sorted out. That's terrible. There's no intimacy or trust or connection in those types of responses to big emotions. So I hope that helps.

Yeah, it does. I mean, it sounds, and let me know if I'm misinterpreting this, but it sounds like you're just saying don't try to not take that personally because it's much bigger than you taking it personally. When it's big and or doesn't have great clarity. And I also want to make sure that like, I'm that person too. Like I've got my trip wires and I come into, I come, I come, you know, messy and I'm not just saying it's my partner, my wife. It's like, it's me too. It's me with my son. It's my son with me.

And so, you know, when you really care and you, you have a level of safety that you, that you've, you thought was real or or and it gets it gets triggered man big stuff comes up yeah and so it's the beauty of relationships like the depth of relationships is that you go somewhere in them i'm much more interested at this point in my life in depth rather than kind of skimming along the surface well that's interesting that's that's a great way to look at it yeah it's like this amazing journey that sometimes doesn't feel amazing. All right, Miguel, I hope this helped you. This helped me.

Again, I wanna preface this with this is not how I feel. Lots of layers of safety in here. O'Neal, we're okay. Safe space, it's a safe space. When this is happening and you feel as though this is something that's being triggered by something that happened with your partner dr mike is it okay not that i've done this but i've considered doing it is it okay to say oh uh this ain't about me you went you you was going through

something when you i get it this ain't about me. This is some stuff that happened. I'm just here. Not, you know, exactly. Yeah. I'm glad you bring that up because it is a private experience. It's a posture that you're holding. And, um, these are not words that ought to come out of your mouth. It's like, Oh, this is not about me. This is about such and such. Or like, I mean, that's like minimizing or kind of putting it all back on the person and almost like gaslighting and calling that other person crazy like if my wife were to say you know this has nothing to do with us this has to do with your

crazy you know childhood yeah i'd be like wait hold on you know so and that being said i want to be really clear is that i'm a trained psychologist, specializations, you know, included in sport performance and whatnot, but my wife and I go sit down and do work. So I'm not a psychologist with my wife. I'm, I am a human trying to be great, you know, in a relationship. And I can't see all the things that an individual individual independent trained professional can see and hold me accountable to so i just want to be really clear like um feels like maybe i i think in this conversation i've got answers all buttoned up but not even close i'm so glad you just said that because that was gonna be my i was gonna ask you yeah i was like

are you like this at home with you do you break down? Oh, God, no. Stop with that shit. As soon as, like, I try to go to a safe mode, which is like, well, let me see if I can explain. You're like, stop with that shit, you know? Like, she is a truth teller in all the right ways. Oh, gosh. All right, we have another question. This is an anonymous question. I'm overwhelmed.

This is a hell of a way to start it. I'm overwhelmed. I run three hell of a way to start it. I'm overwhelmed. I run three small businesses and have five children. I feel like I haven't had a minute for me in the last decade. I need time to reset, recover, and get intentional about how I'm showing up. I had this time before and I used it well, but I've been in survival mode for years. I'm always pulled away from doing things I enjoy for things I know will help because I feel like someone needs something from me. The only time I can find for preparation and recovery from my days is at 5 a.m.

And it's getting worse. And at times it's blowing out in anger, frustration, and periods of anxiety. How do I reframe my commitments and regain control of my time in my mind? That sounds like the modern human's experience right now for most people. That to me is really familiar for people that are ambitious and trying to get after it and want to have a full life. And so it's first principles. That's the idea is like taking, there's no way through this without having some sort of clarity about what matters most. So this is the challenge is the person saying I'm time poor right now. And I'm going to say, yeah, but you need some time.

So this is the, this is where the, the, the stickiness becomes apparent in the conversation. And the fact that the person is recognizing that this is real, cool, step one. Step two is that person needs to get to some pain. And maybe the person is there. If the person's not there, what I would do is help them feel the pain of the way that they're living their life now. Because if I can do that service to help them feel that pain, maybe they don't have to experience the pain of a heart attack, you know, fill in the blanks of all of the other things, you know, like 30 years later and you don't know your kids, but you know, you've worked really hard for them. So early pain is better than often more dramatic later pain. So that would be kind of step two. The third thing, and so once people feel enough pain, change will take place. Some people, drug addicts, their head has to hit the concrete,

maybe not even once, but a couple of times before they say, right, I'm not doing this anymore. And the greatest gift that somebody can give in another person's life is help them to be honest with the pain and not minimize it and not be like, you'll be okay. No, this is not okay. You're not okay in the way that you're experiencing your life. So let's be honest with it and the way it feels. Okay. The next is to create some sort of, um of space to muse and to think about how it could be differently later. So invite the imagination in. And if you can get somebody to create a compelling future about what it could be, now you have a bit of a North Star about what we're working towards. And then we spend time there just to calibrate. There's very little action taking place up until this point. This is all internal. And then the next step is that you create a plan

and you put that in action. Okay. So what most people want to do like life coaches or some sort of hack to answer this question is get to the action. The action needs to follow downstream from the pain, unfortunately, and from the beautiful, compelling future that sometimes the best thing that we can do is help people illuminate what that is. So you can't give somebody a compelling future, really. I think that they need to be honest with what is the ideal way that I want to have a relationship with work, with myself, with work, with my kids, with mother nature, whatever the other relationships are, and have them paint that picture. And then once you are clear about the actions that we could take, and I can give you a couple examples, then it's the maintenance game. And it's just staying the course and small

little nudges to stay consistent. Okay. So when you heard that answer, what action would you imagine is the most concrete, natural thing that you would suggest somebody, you know, could do? And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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When I read this question, out of all the questions that I've asked you so far, this is the most intimidating because this reads as extremely, extremely complicated. Five children, the workload, I'm assuming they're married or have a partner i this is gonna sound really bleak but for all intents and purposes it seems like just this boxed box that they're locked in that you know how do you get out of it as you were talking i was listening to you intently but i was also thinking to myself like how do you navigate all of this maybe if it was one kid or two but five five five if you don't even have a career is overwhelming. So that's right. So you're right on the money. Like this is a, this is a tough one to sort out. And so let's think about two basic strategies here. Big rocks are recovery. Okay. So let's

say that all the purpose and the compelling future is we've done that work. And let's say that this person is in pain. Like, no, I'm ready to change now. Yeah. Great. Okay. There's big rocks for recovery. And then there's thin slicing of recovery. So big rocks of recovery is like, all right, what are we going to do to compete to get sleep right? Like you're going to have to really invest in getting sleep because that's where the buoyancy, that's where the recovery comes from to be able to have the zest and the sense of aliveness that you're looking for. Squared number one is compete to get the greatest amount of consistency and quality sleep you

can get. I would just start there and just kind of go down the path of like the next other big rocks. Like, can you upgrade in some respects your your nutrition? Yeah. Are you drinking throughout the day? Let's start with a big glass of water, you know, kind of first thing out the gate. And then there's all these thin slices, which is, um, just doing something 10 times a day that takes 20 seconds to down-regulate, to relax, to be outside in nature, to take a long exhale or series of long exhales, to give yourself just this thin slice, little break, this moment of down-regulated peace. And so there's all these little tiny things that we

could implement, but it's got to start with kind of the big rocks first. As you were saying that, it's starting to make more sense to me. Just find little pieces of solace that you can just string together that will help you get through all of that. Like the drinking of the water, the taking the naps, stepping out in nature for a few moments. And then, you know, little baby steps. Yeah. And like I'm wondering if you heard, like, if you were hearing when I was given kind of that process is like, yeah, but that's not applied. It's not going to work. Because what I

heard and what you were just saying was like, it doesn't feel like it's enough, but you're, you're 1000% correct, which is like the easy way in this, the kind of quick way in is like one time a day, find a sense of solace. Just one time a day, put your feet in nature. Right? And just be there, even if it's for just a handful of seconds. Now we're kind of starting a path forward, even though it's incrementally tiny. Yeah.

But we're starting forward. So, yeah, there's no end all be all. There's no kind of, it's hard. Yeah. I think this is the challenge of modern life. Yeah. Like, we're doing a lot. I think this is the challenge of modern life. Like we're doing a lot. I mean, one thing that you said that resonated

was welcome to being, you know, this is a human experience. For the ambitious. Yeah, for the ambitious. So this person wanted a full life. Yeah. You know, you grab it. You got it.

Yeah, you grab the hindquarters of a pretty powerful lion. Yeah. So now what? Yeah. Yeah, cool. Awesome, great. this question is from hudson uh what do you struggle with most in your life personally in the area of psychology living it yeah thank you hudson it's living it um like i've spent the better part of two decades really committing to understanding how people

excel in life. And I don't mean early on, it was just the metallic nature of excellence, the hardware and being the best. And now I'm far more interested in a rich life. And I don't mean that financially, but like a life that has great buoyancy and depth, the fullness to one's life. And I don't think we can do that if we don't fundamentally commit to try to understand what we're capable of. And so that's pretty messy. There's not this high-performance treadmill, jump on it and press a button and you're going to be a high performer. It doesn't work like that.

So I understand best practices both out in the frontier and in the laboratory and metabolizing those in a way that they are real or organic as big as it sounds like every moment of my life. That's what I want to do. And so that is the hardest part. And then the way it ultimately shows up and it's going to sound really cheesy. I'm narrating in my head, but it's like, this is it for me is having a love affair with the unfolding present moment and, and like really being in love with like what's about to happen. So there's a spontaneity that I, I love.

And if I'm anxious or fatigued or overwhelmed or trying to take care of myself i can't be i can't be in tune with the unfolding moment and have a love affair with like what's next and how is this how is this going to happen between you and me yeah and so that's why that's what i'm working on more than anything and to be able to do that um on a consistent basis. Well, I love what you just said. Having a love affair with the moments.

Yeah. That's amazing. This morning I got up and normally when I get up in the morning early, I go to the gym at like five 36 AM. Um, I didn't charge my car up. So the battery was, you know,

that was being O'Neill. So I, I went to the charging station and I was charging my car. But normally when I'm charging my car, I'm looking at my phone, watching a movie, I'm taking a nap, I'm doing something. But I saw the sun slowly starting to come up in the parking garage. And I was like, man, let me use my phone to try to just capture the city. There's some social media stuff.

And I went to the opening in the parking garage and I started doing that. Then I was like, oh, this is stupid. Let me put my phone up. Let me just take in the sunrise. Let me try to, you know, enjoy this moment. And it was a beautiful moment, a beautiful experience, and I enjoyed it. And I started, you know, saying my affirmations and enjoying everything. And I'm like, why don't I do this more? I'm going to do this more. Oh, do this more oh that's cool huh it's very cool but but i know i'm not gonna do it every single every day

well you just argued with yourself all right i just argue yeah myself but i want to be able to build that habit to do that taking those moments and enjoy them because as you get older you start to realize that's what is it's most important that's. You know, like I think it's awesome when we can learn from the experience and then like make some commitments. But sometimes back to an earlier point is that we need to feel some pain. And this is like until the love leaves, you don't know how much you loved and how much you cared for it, that type of unfortunate thing.

And I had a dear friend, Nate Hopka Chittick, who's no longer with us. And when he first came to, he wanted, he really wanted to see where I grew up surfing. And so, and he was in the NFL, he won a super bowl. Like he was, he was an incredible athlete, big life, big person. And, um, and so you really, I mean, what a cool thing. Like we met as adults and he's like, Mike, man, like, I really want to know, I want to feel where you grew up surfing. And so I was never, no one has ever asked me for that except for Nate. Not one adult has ever said, show me where you spent your childhood. Show me where you fell in love with surfing or all these amazing lessons from mother nature came from. Show me, I want to feel it. Like, that's a cool dude. That's I miss Nate. And so, so I brought him there and it felt like

this, like, I don't know, this really emotionally charged experience. And, and then he just stopped and he soaked it all in and he looked at me and it was like a sunset moment. And he looked at me, he goes, and he started laughing when he tried to do his laugh. He goes, that's like, it was an awesome laugh. And he looks at me, this huge human, he looks at me and he says, tell me this never gets old. Tell me, Mike, you don't take this for granted. And I was, it's something I saw and experienced on the regular. And so that moment of like, get, like, get your shit, right. This is special. Tell me you're not taking this for granted. And there was a fire and intensity in

the way he said it, it shaped me, you know, as an adult, that moment shaped me. So that's the, those are the types of like light bulb moments that can actually create a bit of a trajectory shift and i'm it sounds like you didn't quite have it this morning in the parking garage partially partially partially but what would it take for you to like is is the game inside the game here for you to have another one and or is it to like have another moment of awe where you go you know what i am going to shift you know what uh it's partially that and also you know this word keeps popping up again vulnerability like in this society we have been taught even when you look at self-help things online or on your phone or whatnot

it's always approaching things from an aggressive standpoint. Go seize the day, don't be weak. Go get this, go getters don't get tired. Lions eat with lions. Eagles don't fly with seagulls, whatever sort of references. That was made up. That was made up, yeah. Seagulls fly too, I don't know if they fly now, they fly, they all fly.

That's good. But those are the things that are just told to us over and over again. No powerful self-help person is like, some do, some, some are. But most aren't telling you, go look at the sunset. Take it in. Don't take these moments for granted. Pick up the sand. Let it fall between your fingers and hands and look at the grains of sand.

You're not told that because, for lack of a better word the grains of sand and this is you know you're not told that because for lack of a better word that seems and this isn't me because i don't view things like this so i don't want anybody to think i think like this but again yeah yeah for lack of a better word that's viewed as kind of soft we kind of weak you know and um i think that you know if you want to grow and evolve as a human being and as you get older, you start to learn that, OK, these things that I viewed as weak as a child, as a young man, you know, aren't really weak. They're the most beautiful things. They're the most important things. They certainly are the things that you think about when things are taken away from you or you're on your deathbed or if you get locked up or, you know hear people reference that like man i just wanted to walk my dog when i was locked up and before that i used to complain about walking my dog and picking up poop and just you know yeah but you hear people

refer to that you don't hear them say man all i thought about was going to the south of france or you don't hear little things it's the little things that you hear yeah you know so i've heard it so many times before i'm like okay these are the things that you hear. I've heard it so many times before. I'm like, okay, these are the things that are important. Wisdom is, it doesn't have that energy as like, be the charging bull. And there's a time and place for both. And the people that have fully embodied wisdom are the ones that you're describing. To me, they are the most powerful people.

And the reason being is because their external world does not dictate their internal experience they go anywhere they want now if you put some skills together with it like i don't know whatever degree black belts or you know true master of craft and you have wisdom watch out yeah like it's unbelievable like that that is epic when you can put two deep capabilities together yeah and i want to just add that you you touch a nerve when you talked about like the go get it mentality and the quote unquote self-help industry and i have like i get a rash all over my body when I think about me being part of that industry. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to

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plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. I understand what people are craving. They want to be better, but the dilution of wisdom and insight and research-based best practices is nauseating. And I can't listen to advice. I don't want to be an advice giver. I really have an inversion to somebody who has not demonstrated deep mastery in their life coming along kind of casually to capture a business idea or without a deep dedication to understand the psychology of becoming to casually throw something out in the self-help industry. So like at Finding Mastery, we are actually trying our very best to move the industry towards evidence-based best practices that have been tested and tried and come up true

in fast-paced, hostile, exacting, rugged, high-pressured, stressful environments. So that's where, like, that's why I think the self-help industry begins to break down is because that rigor is not, is not valued. And the second is there's a problem with the industry because the word self is the first word there.

So it's all about oneself. And I believe that we need to go back to our true nature, which is we are social beings first. We are an interconnected, intimately involved ecosystem. And to orientate ourselves from that place is the right framing. Not like 1980, I need to be better myself so that I can win the medal. I need to be better myself so I can help my teammates, I can help my partners be great in life. And if we can get that second piece to it, I think we get, I've seen it.

We create a rising tide where everybody's better for it. Yeah, I think that the whole thing that's missing is the whole wellbeing aspect of it. And it's interesting because I kind of liken the whole self-help industry that i see on ig because it's extremely popular in ig to the fitness industry on ig i don't they're starting to be blurred i don't see the difference anymore they all could i could close my eyes and listen to a fitness one of some muscle head dude with a shirt off talking and listen to a self-help person and i

i would think they're the same person you know it's kind of blending so um the whole well-being aspect of it i think is missing and you know when you listen to it it's like go go run through a brick wall and when you run through a brick wall if there's knives there run through the knives you're gonna you know it's like okay i gotta do this and for all intents and purposes it hypes you up yeah but then there's there's no softer more malleable I'm just trying to find the the correct words to say you know uh eloquent way of yeah of exercising your life then go go crush something in order to be successful. There's a time and place for both. Yeah. There is a, like, you know, I don't think anything beautiful and amazing or true demonstration of mastery

is going to take place by the easy path. So they're like, yes, you got to get up against your capabilities and capacities where you're messy. And it's hard to stay in it. That's required. But that, to me, that's like, when I see all that stuff, yes, there's a time to stay in it, that's required. But to me, that's like when I see all that stuff, yes, there's a time and place for it,

but that is almost like that's the ABCs. A true master is not going to say, you need to work hard. They're not saying that. That's an assumption. And it's not just working hard. It's like come from a place where you are fully committed and it feels organic to you. And it's such a compelling future that you have.

Of course, you're going to do work and work is the gift. It's not like, it's not the, it's not the orientation is wrong. It's not like work hard for work hard sake or work hard. So you'll have something later. It's like, it's in the work where you where the where the real gift is yeah what is you've been in martial arts for how long man probably over 20 years now and so what degree um i'm a first degree black belt in jiu-jitsu uh first degree black belt in taekwondo and boxing doing thai boxing i've been doing everything for

forever yeah how about it so you're living it i'm living it you know and interestingly enough first we black belt in Taekwondo, and boxing, doing Thai boxing. I've been doing everything for forever. Yeah, how about it? So you're living it. I'm living it. And interestingly enough, listening to you just saying what you just said, when you listen to an athlete, and like Kobe, if he scores 80 points,

the time when he scored 80 points against Toronto, he was in the zone. And when you're in the zone, oftentimes things come effortlessly. That's exactly. There is no, you didn't hear him say, man, every, every, every last one of those 80 points, you know, I was busting my ass. You know, everything was, you know, it was just like the basket scene.

You always hear the athletes say the basket seemed huge. And I just felt like I couldn't miss. And that's what I'm thinking when I listened to these overly aggressive hype people saying run through walls. I'm like, well, there's gotta be a thinking when I listen to these overly aggressive hype people saying run through walls. I'm like, well, there's got to be a time when you don't have to run through walls anymore. You just phase through them. How about it? That's right.

Yeah. That's good. That's really good. PhaseThroughEm.com. Go get it. PhaseThroughEm. Yeah. All right.

So I have a question from Susan. I am a director of corporate communications at an organization which is undergoing a transition to a new president. The new president, in two addresses to the organization, has referred to us as family. This is a foreign concept to us, which I don't think should be introduced out of the gates and which would need buy-in. Family leaves me with a sour feeling. I hear you talk about this a bit on a recent episode with Robert Waldinger. Can you expand on why you don't think it's advisable to think of a business colleague as family? I love this question. I flat out agree with Susan here,

is that you don't fire family. You don't, you don't have a performance quota with family. And so there's a great coach that I have the privilege of knowing. He's a legend in rugby, Jack Clark. And he and I had a rich discussion about that. And so I want to play that as a reference point, but I just want to like family is different.

It's not a team. And so Jack says it really well. Let's, let's, let's tee up Dr. Clark here. You know, I roll my eyes sometimes at the notion that, you know, we describe ourselves so frequently as a family when family is, as you point out, Mike, it's, it's, it's unconditional where high performance teams are highly, highly conditional. Um, you know, there's a, there's a requirement to contribute to the middle, to do your job, um, to perform, um, to, to put your guts into it. I mean, I, you can't really research, um, a high performance organization of any type where you don't come to that conclusion that there's a lot of conditions here. And it's not right for everyone, but those conditions help this organization operate and succeed. And I think that that's how high performance teams are.

I think they're highly conditional. That doesn't mean they don't care about one another. It just means that it's not like you've got to accept me for who I am. And if that means you can't trust me or if I'm not punctual or if I break rules or if I, if I don't give full effort, you've got to accept that. That's not true. You don't accept that in high performance athletics.

Meaning that people get fired. People get fired. People get cut. People separate from the team. Coaches and players, right? It's, it's, there's an expectation in a high performance team that that that everyone is putting everything they have into it when you hear coach clark say that um what happens for you because not everyone agrees i'm this principle you know i i partially agree i've never heard um anyone say that they don't view it as a family? Because I think the family aspect comes from being in the trenches with them. Like, you know, when you're in the trenches with your teammates

and you bled, you've cried, you've won together, you've lost together, I do believe that that forms a bond. Now, yeah, people get traded. People get fired. People don't start anymore. They get benched because it's based on performance. I think we all go into it, if you're on a team, we all go into it knowing that,

even though our feelings still get hurt when you have to go up to the office and see the general managers and you're trading it. You move into Siberia to play for such and such. But you don't want to go to Siberia. You got your family, you live in New York City. But in the back of your head, you go into it knowing anyway.

So yeah, I partially agree with what he's saying, but if I've bled with you and we've won together and we've gone through hard times together and we were the 10th seed and we worked our way up to the first seed, man, yeah, you are family. You're family, not in the blood sense, right? Not in the I'll die for you sense in real life. But in this aspect, in this world of competition, yeah,

yeah, you're my family. So where I think it breaks down, I absolutely agree that the bond between the performers is special and it's really unique where I think this breaks down is the organization talks about family and I find that to be manipulative and I find it to be off-putting because some families are not I mean I don't think you want to be part of my family you know like and I don't know if I want to be part of your family some families are really traumatic. Some are amazing. So the person that's saying we're a family,

I'm assuming that they had a really great family, but that doesn't mean that others did. And I find it is a bit of a manipulation to try to create a deeper care. And I agree that the special bond in the locker room is unique. And you can have some of your closest relationship you've ever had in locker rooms because they're so honest. Then the other piece is unique. And it can feel, you can have some of your closest relationship you've ever had in locker rooms, because they're so honest. Then the other piece is in business,

like I don't get it at all. Why are we talking about family and business? I do not get that at all. I get that, you're right. My mind was strictly on sports, but you're right, in business, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Yeah, and so i appreciate the sentiment

i do i appreciate like let's really take care of each other let's do something that's amazing for each other for you know others outside of our our team unless i can't even say the word family inside of business like i i don't i don't get it and so yeah i'm biased and so that's but that's been traditionally my position. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. I think in sports it's different, but in business, yeah.

Because you're right, you don't fire family. And if I'm underperforming, you're not going to be like, man, just keep O'Neal. He's family. He's cost us a couple million, but he's family.

He's okay. Makes a lot of sense. All right, cool. Yeah. Dr. Mike, I appreciate you having me on again. This has been amazing. I think we're in it now.

I think we're in it. I think we're in it now. I love that you come through with your unique worldview, your perspective, your understandings, and the way you push against the questions. And I love doing this with you. So I appreciate it. I love doing this with you, too. And I must admit, this is a selfish thing for me because I get free therapy in a sense. It's expensive, man.

Well, let me, let me tell you something that I found interesting. When I ask you these questions, right. And I try to word it in a, in a, in a way, like for whoever I'm asking, you know, Miguel, if I can relate to what Miguel is going through, I'm championing what Miguel is saying. And in a sense, you know, helping myself. So I'm like, this is what Miguel means,

that I can relate to Miguel. So I feel like it's Miguel and I. Miguel, it's me and you sitting here with Dr. Mike. I do feel that. Like it brings an aliveness into the conversation. 100%, 100%, so. And I don't think you sitting here with Dr. Mike. I do feel that. It brings an aliveness into the conversation. 100%. And I don't think you're alone in it. And my hope is that people that are listening are also doing exactly what you're doing,

which is seeing themselves in the question or wondering how they would respond to it. Or that's the beauty of this narrative and this dialogue is that, uh, I see myself in the questions as well. And so, um, I hope everyone's doing that. And I want to thank everyone for sending the questions in because they're rich, they're great, they're honest, and, uh, that's how we get better. So thank you and thank the whole community. Thank you as well. Let's do it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.