Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Nicole Davis: Volleyball and Making a Ripple

Episode Date: June 29, 2016

This conversation is with Nicole Davis. Nicole represented the United States at the 2008 Olympics and 2012 Olympics, helping USA to a silver medal both times. She was also part of the US team that won the 2014 World Championships. In This Episode: -Learning the hard way about the appropriate time to confront a coach -Focusing on what is controllable -Enduring a difficult family dynamic growing up -The impact domestic abuse had on shaping her as a person -The cost of her competitive edge as a child -The difficulty in embracing the good that comes from constant failure -Finding the thing that makes sense to you -Her ability to pick up a new skill quickly -The lonely journey that separates an Olympian from other athletes -Why it’s ok if something is difficult -Her approach to practicing mindfulness -The pressure of the Olympics and how she responded -Importance of understanding where confidence comes from_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stewart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good.

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that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. In this conversation, it's with Nicole Davis. Nicole represented the U.S. in the 2008 Olympics and 2012 Olympics, where she helped the team that she was part of win silver in both. And she was also part of the team that won the 2014 World Championships. So she plays indoor volleyball and she plays a position known as libero. It's an Italian word that means free. Isn't that a great concept? Isn't that a great word for a position?

Now, Nicole is known as being one of the best, if not the best in the world at her craft. And just for a moment, think about what it's like to not the best in the world at her craft. And just for a moment, think about what it's like to be the best at the thing that you care most about, whether that be parenting or business or entrepreneurship, or maybe it's just as simple as being the best version of you. And if you're into that concept, which I think we all are, I think you're just going to love this conversation. Now to be successful at her craft is at the position of the barrel. You need to be a great communicator. You need to be able to handle pressure and you need to be able to be the one that sets up the proper offense or to sets up

the offense in the best position. And the concept behind that is that you have to be right to be able to take care of others. And that's a, that's woven inside of this conversation. And so these are characteristics that I think we can all benefit from. She knows winning. She understands resiliency. She understands toughness. And in this conversation, we're going to talk about learning the hard way about confrontation and the difficulty in growing up in dynamics in her family that range from fear to fighting to becoming free and the cost of competitiveness, too much competitiveness as a child.

So we'll talk about that as well. So I love introducing you to Nicole. She's intense. She thinks clearly. She takes up space. I hope that translates in this conversation. She's transparent. She's strong and she laughs a lot.

So hopefully that all comes through in this conversation. Now, one more thing. I sincerely hope that you live life with passion, with joy, with a sense of peace and fire that's all connected together and that you find a way to have deep meaning and connection in life. And that the story that you're creating, that is authentic to you, and that you find ways to express yourself through your craft in any and all environments. And I just hope that you love deeply, that you push the edge of your boundaries, and that you find the thrill of both risk and peace. And that that somehow when you say goodbye, that you'll leave with insight and that

somehow you'll have helped others become. So here's the carving your own path. And let's jump right in to start it off with this conversation with Nicole Davis. Nicole. Hey, Mike. How are you? It's good. So this has been a while coming. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird to be on this side of the podcast, because I've listened to all of them, you know, and I've loved it. And so I'm honored, obviously, but it's strange to be on this side of the mic. I'm honored, too. I'm excited for this. And what as you've been listening, what are some of the things that you've been paying attention to, to some of the podcasts? Like what has been as the listener of interest so far?

Yeah, for me, part of it is decoding it into a language that makes sense for me, but also for, you know, what we do at Win Forever. And then the other thing is that it's really helped me to understand my framework, my psychological framework. And so it's nice to be able to kind of be putting two and two together now for experiences that I've had in my life or challenges that I've had in my life and how I've worked through them in the past and now how I understand them. That's cool. So even as one of the best in the world, you know, one of the top performers in your sport, you've been able to even listen and say, Oh, you know what? I'd answer that question this way. I never thought about that question. Yeah, totally. And I just have like these aha moments for all the podcasts, you know, and some, it's not like they're all profound and life-changing,

you know, but it's nice to be able to wrap your head around the way you thought or the processes, you know, that helped to get you somewhere. And then part of it is just sitting here thinking, gosh, had I known what I know now, how different things could have been. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, let's get into that. You are, in your career, you earned the right to be one of the best in the world at your craft.

And it didn't come easy. And there was a lot that went into it. So can you start to teach us when you first noticed the thinking about mastery or the thinking about excellence or the thinking about, you know, getting better? When did you first notice that you were going to invest some serious energy to get better? Was it my craft or in life? Yeah, let's go craft first. Okay. For me, the first time that I really bought into that was in 2007. I had been, I'd lost a spot on the world championships team. I was told I was going to start. And then a week before we left, I didn't, I was told I wasn't going to start, but I'd still go kind of as a sub.

And at that time we were training eight, eight hours a day on the national team, you know, and the culture wasn't great. I was waking up kind of angry every morning and not feeling great about what I was doing or happy. And, and I was completely pissed off and angry at the coach at that time and kind of naively told her what I thought. And is that a bad idea to tell a coach what you think? Uh, I think there's certainly a, uh, what I learned is how to pick and choose my battles. And there's certainly a way to say something difficult that is more productive than not. And I, I didn't know how to do that at that time. You know, I was still quite young and, and so I, I essentially jeopardized my career in that moment. Like the way you confronted your coach.

I wasn't sure that I was going to be invited back to the national team after that summer. And I was, I was fortunate to go play in Turkey. And one of my teammates had been on her Turkish national team for 16 years. And we were sharing stories, you know, war stories, so to speak. And more or less my season ended with her saying like, I don't want you to make the same mistake that I made. This is your, your, uh, peer, my peer on a professional team in Turkey. And, and she ended her national team stint after 16 years by more or less doing the same thing I did, you know, like calling out the coach on what he was doing, what he was saying. And the lesson I learned from that is that I'm in control,

that how I respond to situations is in my control and my relationships with people is in my control. And that given the chance to come back, that I can do things differently, knowing that, you know, maybe the coach isn't going to change, maybe circumstance aren't going to change, but how I see them, how I respond to them is certainly something that I can take care of on my end. How important is that concept of being able to control what's within your control? How important is that as a general concept to, for you as being one of the best in the world? I think what I found is that the more I focused on things that weren't in my control, the more out of control I felt and the less passionate or motivated I was to do, to play volleyball. Okay. So when you, there's like the game between

control and influence and then things that are just totally out of your control. Right. And you were playing the influence game a lot, like trying to influence or leverage or get people or ideas to move in your direction when you don't have 100% control over it. That's a difficult question. I think I was more focused on things that I couldn't control, what the coaches said, what they thought about me, whether they were putting me on rosters or not um whether people were talking badly or not about me you know or how I was talking about them um what's going to happen a year from now or two years from now like thinking ahead um was was the response anxiousness yes certainly and was it for you physical anxiousness meaning in your body or was it more mental anxiousness? Yes, certainly. And was it for you physical anxiousness, meaning in your body, or was it more mental anxiousness, which is like an excessive thinking and worrying about what could go wrong?

At that time, it was more of a mental anxiousness. Okay. So just a lot of noise. Yeah, a lot of noise. Fast forward four years from that experience, it became more physiological. Oh, it did. For a different reason. Yeah. forward four years from that experience that became more physiological. Oh, it did. So it changed. Yeah, it changed. Okay. Okay. So let's put a pause in 2007 and then go back and then let's go back to, did you have brothers, sisters? Yeah. You're grinning. I have an older brother. He's eight years older than me. So, you know, eight years of a big gap in age. So he was in

high school. I remember watching him play football in high school, but he actually moved out of our house, um, when I was quite young because he and my dad didn't get along. So he moved in with my grandmother or his grandmother. He's my half brother. And so we weren't that close growing up. Half brother, meaning mom and dad had your biological mom and dad were no longer together. Uh, my biological mom and dad were together longer together uh my biological mom and dad were together but he my mom got it my mom accidentally got pregnant when she was 18 and so but with christopher my brother okay and uh you know the thing to do then was to marry get married and so and she grew up catholic and so she married my brother's um father But a year and a half later, you know, being 18 and really young, realized it was a mistake.

And so then my mom found my dad, married him, had me, you know, eight years later. And then my dad was, I don't know, my dad treated him differently than he treated me. And so it was really difficult for my brother. What was that like for you as a youngster? Did you realize that when you're younger, that there was a different relationship between siblings? A little bit like it, it didn't become so, I didn't become so aware of it. I didn't recognize it as much in the moment as I do looking back. Um, for me, like it always just felt like, well, he was older, so he got to do more things. You know, he got to pick out his birthday gifts and things like

that. I, I, what I recognize is that my dad was harder on him than he was on me in terms of like, did he do his chores and did he do them properly versus me just like doing the chores. And so there was always, it felt like there was always a bit of tension in the house around that. And so my brother, you know, at the age of, I don't know, 13 kind of got tired of it and said, I'm moving out with dad. And then, um, so he ended up moving with his grandmother so that he could go to this little high school in the country. Okay. All right. So what was sport like, what was, was uh what was like life like between your mom your dad and your brother moving out uh i would my the relationship between my mom and dad was toxic

oh it was yeah um dad was physically physically abusive to mom uh did, did you see it there? Yeah. A couple of times. Oh, you saw it. Okay. Um, when I was really young, uh, and I've, I've learned recently a little more about a couple of experiences that I do remember, but you know, going out to play and then coming back, mom has a black eye. Um, I have a very early memory. That's not that clear of, of my mom having a broken nose and the police being there. I have later memories of, you know, my mom having a broken nose and the police being there i have later memories of you know my mom being frightened and calling the police and my my last um my last day with my mom and dad together i physically had to step in between them your last days yeah yeah before they before they got a divorce so and how old were you uh they got it i was 14 at the time. Um, the, the physical abuse, I would say stopped probably

my, apparently my dad did Coke until I was 11, which I didn't know. But, uh, and it seemed that the physical abuse stopped after I was like 10 or 11. Uh, it's strange though, cause my dad would never lay a hand on me. He would be kind of, you know, verbally abusive sometimes, but would never lay a hand on me. I think maybe he spanked me twice in my entire life, you know? And it wasn't something that left a mark, you know? But he wasn't that way with my mom. So what was that like growing up knowing that there was, that was kind of a normal experience. I don't know if, you know, you were able to think that other kids didn't have it that way and you had to protect, you know, the family secret or that's just kind of how families did things. Yeah. I didn't have that awareness. I, uh, I remember

I tried to run away one day. You didn't wait. We didn't ask a question like that had enough options really. Like you didn't have, what didn't you have? I didn't, I didn't really have full awareness that like, oh, this isn't what other families are like, you know, I had, I hung out with friends, but I didn't necessarily, like hang out with them in their family units. And so I didn't know anything about what other families were like. And for me, there was always this, like, my dad and I were best buds when I was a kid, you know, if he did something, I did something, I would follow him around, I would mimic him. And so for me, it was just like, I had a hard time like wrapping my head around, like the difference between my relationship with him when I was a kid and his relationship or my mom and his relationship, uh, until I started

probably 12, 13, when I started to kind of have my own thoughts and have my own voice was when my relationship with him, um, started to deteriorate. He thought my mom was like feeding me full of information, but really it was just me seeing that there's like something's not right here and I'm not okay with it and voicing my opinion on it. And so that's when things fell apart for he and I in terms of our relationship. And so looking, looking back now, what do you think the cost and asset were to having a family structure that was maybe unpredictable? You know, sometimes domestic violence and abusive relationships can have an unpredictability, but sometimes they have a great cadence to them. Um, so I don't want to

kind of box in the answers or questions even, but what are some of the costs and benefits of coming now that you're grown? Yeah. Growing. I think, um, the cost is more on a personal level. It's taken me quite a while to understand who I want to be in a relationship and how to be productive as a communicator and as someone's like in a relationship because my model for, for what that looks and sounds like wasn't great. But is the model from the mom or the dad or both the relationship model? Okay. Yeah. Both. Um, from, from like, like a standpoint of like competing, I don't mean just in sport, but in life, like I learned that life's not easy, that I've got to work hard for everything. Like I want, and that it's going to be difficult, but difficult feels, feels normal to me.

I thrive in difficult situations. I thrive on with challenges and also to take risks. Um, like I, I, I've been comfortable taking a risk. I usually don't know what's going to happen or how it's going to go, but I, I tend to lean into risk. I mean, not, not including like physical harm type of risk, but like, okay. But when did you jump into breakup mom and dad, that confrontation? 14. So at 14, you had some kind of way about yourself that you had enough moxie to say, this isn't right. And I'm getting in here instead of like, I remember an experience I had, I was younger and my parents were screaming and um like i remember that and not knowing what to do

i don't did you ever have anything like that or did you know right what to do yeah so i started to say i tried to run away and and i was i don't know maybe eight years old i was really young remember it it's not it's vague but i remember i packed a backpack and i decided i was just gonna leave because i was tired of my parents fighting okay and i did i like couldn't bear it anymore and so i walked down to the little league field and i think i ended up at like my best buddy's house or whatever and my mom my mom somehow like figured it out and came and found me um so that was like the resources yeah yeah and then uh i did martial arts when I was young.

So by the time I was 14, I already had black belt and I had, I had enough, I don't know, wits about me to know that like the right thing to do was not to hit someone and that it would be better for me to step in and stop it and maybe risk getting hit myself than for that to be the situation. Okay. So some of the assets are risk-taking, you know, having, doing, being able to do difficult things and that feels just fine where sometimes the difficultness feels like pressure to many people and they're trying to get away from it. Right. Okay. And then, um, I think you said one other thing as an asset, just competing in general. And then the idea of like nothing, nothing's going to come easy. Like one of the things that I, one of the reasons why I was successful is because I could outcompete people. I could outwork people for long periods of time. I keep pulling that a little bit. What is, how did that show up? Uh, for example, I, I didn't start in 2006 on the World Championships team, but I earned my spot on the 2008 Olympic team.

Was the 2006 the one that you confronted your coach? Yeah. Or was that a different one? Yeah. And then the same thing actually happened in 2010. I wasn't the starting Libro for the 2010 World Championships, and I earned my spot for the 2012. So there have been lots of moments, you know, a lot of people come into a program and they're kind of, um, give, I don't want to say given like they've not worked, but like there's kind of a path that is paved for them. And I've always been

fighting, um, for my spot. There's never been a path laid out for me. Okay. What, why is that? Is that, is that your framework or is that the actual, like, is that how you see life? Or is that like the hard facts? Like, no, it was like one day, one day to day. I didn't know if I was going to be released or not. I don't want to say I didn't know if I was going to be released or not, because I definitely like deserve to be in the gym was definitely one of the top two or three Libros in the gym. But sometimes I felt like I was, like when I first got to the national team, there are people there before you and they have relationships already and they've played at a level already. So the coach has a certain rapport with them. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So part of the circumstances.

Yeah. Yeah. And then for folks that don't know what a Libro is, can you walk us through that? So it's just a specialized position in volleyball that it's more or less, you're the captain on defense and reception. And we wear a different color Jersey than the rest of the people on the team because we don't count as a substitute. So the word Libro in Italian means free. We can come freely on and off the court. So that's the origin of the position, the word.

And the primary, so it's the captain and the leader of defense. And the primary skill is to be able to, for serve, receive? For serve, receive and defense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then, so defense runs through you or does it run through the setter primarily? We start the action with the defense and then the setter sets the ball. Okay, perfect. So the ball comes to you, ideally, right? You're scrambling to get it. Yeah.

How fast are the balls coming across the net? I would imagine in the 60s. Depends on who we're playing against. Yeah, right. Sometimes it's more. If it's Cuba, maybe it's more. Are they known to be they're just really physical and dynamic it's yeah it's it's fun but it's i mean i've missed balls on

serve receive or like in defense because the ball's coming i remember the first time i played cuba in three sets our team got aced 22 times oh wow i mean they had three servers that were three of the best in the world. And I just had never like seen anything like that before. What do you think is going to happen to Cuba? Now that the borders are changing? What do you think is going to take place? Just borders between us and Cuba? Yeah. Just in volleyball or? Yeah, just yeah, from your volleyball in particular, many of their athletes have defected and left to go play professionally overseas and to make money. And they've not had the opportunity to do that before.

So, you know, Cuba won three or four gold medals in a row, which is unprecedented. And their men's team, at least three of the players are three of the best in the world in their positions, but they don't play for their national team right now. So if, if all of their players were to stay and, or, or be able to play on the national team and go make money overseas during the professional season, I think they would be phenomenal.

Yeah. They'd be waking up a giant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see. Yeah. What happens in the next maybe eight years?

Those were, those were really fun times. Were they? Yeah. Just playing teams that are so physical and so dynamic. Okay. So there's another evidence of you liking the difficult and challenging. Okay. And then what are the costs of growing up in an environment that, you know, I don't think you captured it like unpredictable or scary, or I don't, I don't get a sense of what unpredictable or scary, or I don't, I don't

get a sense of what it was like for you, but. Yeah. I'm not sure I have a sense for it either. For me, it just looking back, it's how I like, how I had to learn how to be different. Um, because my model for relationships or for communication was quite off. I feel like also that one of the things that I realized maybe two years ago, because I've always been the most competitive kid in a room or in a gym to the point where it was maybe poisonous for the people around me because I was so competitive. And I think a revelation that I had a couple years ago was that I became what I did in spite of

my parents, not because of my parents. Like it was a coping mechanism for me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission,

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FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So growing up in the family that you grew up in, you channeled that to be able to love difficult because it felt familiar, but you would compete longer and deeper than anyone else. And your peer group around you, they struggled. Some of them struggled, right? And because it's like, why are you competing for who's drinking the most water or whatever it was?

Yeah. Is that part of it? Or like, we're just playing pool? Relax. I don't know how to do that. Okay. So everything was competing. Yeah. And what were you competing for? I have no idea. Oh, so it was just like an edge. Yeah. I think also the model, because like I said in the beginning, my dad and I were best buds when I was really young. So whatever he did, I did. So he's the one who got me in the martial arts. And then he would practice with me like out in the backyard

and we'd practice throwing kicks. Um, he also was the first person to take me snow skiing or wakeboarding. And the model was that like, I was competing against him. That's the way it felt for me when we would do that. Like if, if he was jumping off a 25 foot cliff, when we were skiing, I was jumping off the same cliff. Um, and, but it was like, it always felt like anything you could do, I could do better kind of,

but instead of like, Hey, let's, let's go figure this out together kind of thing. And so I think, I think again, I have no idea, but that's,

that's what it felt like. And so maybe that's how it manifested. And then it felt natural to do that with your dad. And then, so that was, he was teaching you some kind of way about competition. Then when you brought it into peers and your peer groups, it worked in some situations because when it was time to be competitive, you're really good at it. And then when it wasn't time to be competitive, you didn't, you didn't have the off button. Okay. And then can you remember a particular point in time when you realized

that you were just a bit different than your peers in the way you competed? Yeah, my high school coach's wife sat me down and was like, there's a different way to do you. And really challenged me to, I mean, again, I've said this before in some of the conversations that we have, but there's a tone when you're a female and you're trying to hold other people to standards. And I didn't quite understand why people weren't working as hard as I was or why they didn't care as much about winning. And she sat me down and was like,

look, you're a certain way and you need to be different to be a great teammate. And so I was like, what? Like, I didn't understand at that point what that meant but that was for me like the first time where I was challenged in a way that was like I had to realize I was different and what did she what was she coaching you toward to do what differently to be a better teammate which means to be less of a bitch which and and what does that look like like Like, what are you doing?

I don't know what I looked like at that point, but maybe rolling my eyes, maybe saying things that, you know, girls don't typically say to each other. Um, I'm not sure, you know, I was aggressive in, in the way I communicated and the way I played and the way I held people to standards. So I know that after 2012, one of the things that she said to me was, she actually said, I'm so proud of you when things were, when things were hitting the fan in London, you were pulling people together. And so, you know, I think it's just, I was on one end of the spectrum then, and, you know, learned to be on a different end of the spectrum several years later. Not an accelerated path, but... Okay, do you think that that's a gender issue?

Like there's different expectations for genders? Or is this like, it doesn't matter what gender you were, you just had so much of a bite about you being okay that you were leaving a wake of destruction in your relationships and the way you treated people? I think it's both. I want to say, I know it's both because I've, I'm coaching at USC and my alma mater and the girls there I've coached club and, and then I've experienced it as a female. And I've, I've also talked to the men on the national team about how they deal with conflict at one point. And for guys, like you can more or less say anything and it gets squashed within that day. And there's not a lot of gossip that goes point. And for guys, like you can more or less say anything and it gets squashed within that day. And there's not a lot of gossip that goes on. And there's just an understanding of like, yeah, we're trying to get better, bro. Like you can't do that or you can't say that, you know,

but as women, we, I don't know if it's the way we're socialized or, but we hold onto things and we take things personally. And so even if, even if I said something with, with the best of intentions in the heat of the moment, there tends to be a tone for, for all human beings as women, we take that bad and, and then it's hard to let go and it becomes a thing. Now I'm not saying that's, that's how I was. Like I definitely had a bite when I was younger and, and it was genderless. It had no, nothing to do with me being a female or, or not being around boys and playing. It was just the way I was. And where did that bite come from? If you draw a couple of lines together, I'm not sure. I think part of it is that that's the way my dad communicated. And you were closer to your dad as a kid, you know, but also, you know, there was a

bite in the way my parents communicated with each other. And so I think part of it was that part of it was just this competitiveness. I really didn't understand why, like why play volleyball if you're not going to compete hard. Like I had such a hard time understanding that some people were there just to have fun and like hang out with their friends and you know, as, as 12 year as 14 15 year olds you know i didn't start playing until i was 14 but yeah okay yeah because again like i don't know it's hard for me to do something just for fun and not compete so where do you find joy now growing up like where do you find peace or joy or happiness or whatever words that have the other side of bite uh i think i just have a greater appreciation for things now in terms of like i was at paint night with my mom uh probably two

months ago paint night paint night yeah it's just like you you sign up and there's a paint teacher and they have like a oh like an art class yeah a painting class and they have a painting and she teaches you how to paint it. My mom loves painting. And so I went with her and I could feel myself like comparing my painting to her painting. I could feel it like in the moment I had so much awareness of it. And I kept trying to bring it back to like, this is a really amazing, like, I'm so happy I'm retired so that I can spend these moments with my mom. Mine might be better than hers. I'm not really sure, but you know what I mean? Like it's so hard for me to turn off, but I, I know it about myself. I have appreciation. Certainly. Like I've done a lot of work to be a better person on yourself. Yeah. Okay. And, and then just an appreciation for, for moments,

you know, how do you, how do you think, okay. So your relationship with your mom sounds like it's intact. Do you have a relationship with your dad as well? I haven't spoken to him in 14 years. 14 years. Since that day? No, since I think it was my sophomore year in college. Yeah. Reached a point where, one, I was starting to see traits in myself that I hated about him.

And I was terrified to become like him. And the other thing was that I realized that our relationship was, um, when I had the patience to put up with all of the baggage that came with him, our relationship could be okay. But as a 20 year old trying to navigate my way through being a student athlete and trying to figure out who I was like, patience was not something that I had for another person. So he was poisonous for me. And I couldn't figure out why he was the way he was. I just knew I didn't want to be like him. And I knew that I didn't feel great around him. And so I made the decision to walk away. And then when you're saying that now, what comes up you it's it's long gone it's long gone yeah so meaning that

there is a sense of peace just or is that it's just that it's a matter of fact yeah it's a matter of fact um i mean i don't want to say that like i have nothing in me like i uh it would be great to have like two parents you know and to have my dad like be by my side. And, but it's just not reality again. Like it goes back to like, what's in my control. Like I know that if he's changed, he would have reached out. Like that's, that's where peace comes for me that I'm sure that he's watched everything I've done, but he was always the victim of circumstance. He was never responsible for his part in relationships or his, his part in the world, you know? And, and so I, I know in other words, if you wouldn't have left the milk out, I wouldn't have screamed

at you. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. And, and so i know that if he's changed that he would have reached out got it what do you see maybe if we fast forward 20 years your relationship with your dad looking like same different no clue yeah and again i've i've had several several occurrences where i've i've had the thought, maybe I should reach out to him because it saddens me that he he's likely alone, you know, and just for the human experience, that's a sad way to live. And I know that I think that I could be the thing that helps him change, but I'm very cautious for what, what that would do for me, the cost of that, the cost of that. And I've, you know, I've, I've had a couple

conversations with people close to me on it. And it's like, unless you're real clear about your objective for this and, and can set boundaries that make it okay for you, don't do it. And I think it would be very costly for me to do that. So, so the only way I see things changing is if he changes and I mean, it's worth, we're 14 years into it. You know, he hasn't had an aha moment yet. I'm not, when is that going to happen? I know he's had some health issues that didn't cause an aha moment. So, you know. Okay. And then, so oftentimes we talk about the, the, the part of becoming one of the best in the world. And there's a pivot, like, is it your best or the best? I want to talk about that from you, especially with your orientation to competing. And then what is the dark side? It's something that we don't talk about enough. And I'm not sure America or the world is really ready to understand the dark side of the pursuit of excellence. Maybe the pursuit of mastery has a little bit different spin on it that feels healthier. At least it does to me.

But I think if others knew what I knew and maybe what you know about becoming the best in the world at something, we might not push our children so aggressively towards anything or even celebrate it that much. Like there can be a deep cost. And I'm wondering if you've had that experience or, or is it uniquely different than that? The last 11 years, at least on the national team, every day feels like a failure oh every day feels like failure yeah meaning that you it wasn't good enough like if if not i i'm cautious because like failure in the sense that like if you're really trying to get better you're failing at something every day you know and so if you don't have the framework,

the ability to extract what's good out of that process, then it becomes really difficult to be in it, to have two feet in it. That is amazing. Okay. Come again on that. Like, that's really good. Let me see if I get this really clearly. If you're trying to get after something every day, you're failing at something because you're trying to bite off a lot and you're leaving a little bit on the plate. Right. Okay. Weird analogy. But, um, so, but it's that idea, like you've set your plate full and you haven't been able

to finish everything. And so there's some sort of failure mechanism. And if you can't figure out how to take the good out of it, you'll obsess about the pieces of the food that you left on the plate. Yeah. Okay. And then, all right, how did you learn that? How did you learn to figure that out?

That's a really cool thought. I think I figured that out with another teammate after the 2012 Olympics. We had a conversation where she felt like 2012 was her first Olympics and it had been my second Olympics. And so I knew what like starting over the next squad felt like, but she didn't hold on, hold on, hold on.

You know, what's really cool is that you're like, yeah, it was my second Olympics. Like how many, so many, not many people know what that, what any of that just means in that sentence.

Like it was my second Olympics. It was her first Olympics. So many of us don't know Olympians. You never met them. And so, and then you just got done talking about like your family structure was really unconventional, borderline sick. Right. And I don't want to be disparaging. Like, yeah. And so an abusive relationship growing up, you had this connection with your dad. You lost that connection with your dad because you made a decision and then you harnessed all of that toxicity and need for achievement, maybe, right? Not need for mastery, but need for achievement possibly as a young person. And then, am I going too far? And then inside of that, you found how to get really good at something and you found it's, you became so good at it that you

found yourself in on world championships teams, two Olympians and a two times silver medalist. Unbelievable. Thanks. Yeah. When you hear that play back what what happens for you uh no i get the like enormity of what you're saying like whoa two olympics like how many people like coming from a family structure that is not you know i don't even know what the right word is pristine and like like perfectly designed that everybody would think that of course you're going to be an olympian yeah of course you're going to be an Olympian. Yeah. Of course you're going to be the best, whatever. Yeah. Uh, one, I, did you have a lot of, did you guys have a lot of money and resources? No, no, no, no. So how did you get good coaching? I was really fortunate. Did you have good coaching? Really fortunate. I went to a public school in my hometown in Stockton

and was just got lucky. Really? My, my first first volleyball coach i started playing my freshman year so i in high school in high school i tried out like didn't just wanted to play a team sport again because i've been doing martial arts i didn't really know much about volleyball i'd played it like maybe twice how tall were you then i was five four five four you're five four now seriously was that tall at that age or was 5'4 about average? No, my friends were still taller than me. Yeah, they were like 5'6, 5'7, 5'9, 5'10. Those are tall girls. Yeah. And I mean, I didn't know much about volleyball. I showed up in like jean shorts and like Reeboks. Why volleyball? Because I want to play team sport. And I played it like twice, once in PE maybe,

and once at a family reunion. And're already good at and I just had fun yeah if to be honest I'm a really great athlete that's what I was gonna say yeah did it make sense to you like could you feel that oh I know how to go get those balls yeah I had just so much fun playing volleyball there's like one or two times and I'm a great athlete quick learner so I just someone from the high school when I was in junior high came up, came to the junior high, excuse me, and said, Hey, if you want to try out for a sport, put your name on the list. And so I, I just remembered those two times I played volleyball and thought this could be fun and just try it out. It's a really cool, sorry to interrupt there, but this is a really cool idea is that you found something that made sense to you. You found it

young, relatively young. Yeah. Relatively young. I mean, in the world of elite sport, freshman in high school is relatively late. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But you found the thing that made sense. Yeah. And do you think that we all have something that kind of makes sense to us? Like somebody else, it might be writing, it might be communicating, it might be listening, it might be gardening, it might be leading, it might be breaking things. It might be like, whatever. Do you think we all have something? Has that been your experience? Or can you just speak from an N of one? Like, listen, all I know is that it made sense for me. And when I stepped on the court, it felt like I understood it yeah I think we all have

something that makes sense for us I think what limits that is our ability to dream or to be curious about it and what gets in the way do you think what gets in the way of dreaming or creating I think part of it is framework or circumstance like if you grow up where your parents or your siblings don't know how to do that or weren't taught to do that or weren't shown what that looks like maybe that that's something but i think fear fear did your parents teach you that you could become the best at something or your best at something i i don't think they deliberately did that but i think i learned that. That's the, in spite of your framework. Well, just like, you know, I talk about my dad,

like going snow skiing. The first time I ever went snow skiing, I was like any typical kid. He told me, okay, click your skis on right up the mountain. Just go down. That's, that's how I learned how to snow ski. And the first day I like got halfway down the mountain. I was like, this sucks, man. I wanted to quit like a typical kid and then my brother's girlfriend actually taught me how to how to ski like oh this is how you do it i picked it up like that and i've learned that i can pick up things like that physically physically intellectually as well and so for me like I know I can learn something. And so I think that's why't get this from you. But the borderline between arrogance in that statement and confidence is like, it's thinly sliced. And I don't get arrogance from you. And I imagine, however, I know you. And I imagine some people hearing that could say, well, that seems really arrogant, like I can get things, but then you just want to layer deeper and said,

well, what I what allows me to say that is that I know I can learn. Yeah. I've had absolutely moments where my confidence has been shot and not great, but I've never questioned my ability to learn something or do something. And I've had just tons of moments in my life where that's been hardened. So yeah, that's really cool. But I think we started this conversation talking about coaching. And so I wanted to get back to that because I do want to give props to, um, my coach. Do you remember him or her? Yeah. Well, my first coach was a lady named Faye Murdoch and she was an older woman. I made the JV team. I didn't make the varsity team that first year. And I don't remember what volleyball was like. I remember that she used to walk and

walk around all the time and say, if you believe you can achieve. And as like young little punk girls, you know, we'd roll our eyes and think, oh, she's crazy, you know, but man, she's right. You know, it's it sounds like cliche, but really like you can do anything you set your mind to. I believe that wholeheartedly. And then Brett Cesar was my coach for varsity for the next three years and then also in club. And he's just, he's a great teacher. And one of the things that he did with us was we sat down and read John Wynn's book every single week and read a different block of the pyramid and then did an activity on that. We, I think our tallest player was 5'11

and we played April Ross's team in state finals two years in a row. And Brett would always joke their X's are bigger than our O's. I was starting outside hitter at 5'4. And, uh, you're 5'4 starting outside hitter and on the national team, give it, give an example of how tall outside hitters are. 6'2 to 6'8. So, I mean, we just learned a lot, you know, about what success is and how that looks in a team setting. You mentioned April Ross, one of the best in the world at volleyball. And so you were competing against her. Competing against her. Then I had the fortune of playing at USC with her.

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for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. So can you pull back some of the trainings that you did when you would go through one of John Wooden's building blocks for his pyramid of success and then say one of them's determination or hard work or his definition of success or teammate or team spirit. These are all like things that he talks about confidence being one of them as well. Can you remember some of the trainings that you would

do or the, the way that your coach would shape that? We would literally sit down like in a circle and read it and then have a discussion about it. And so he was, he was helping to shape that, the concept up, you know, and cause we could, we could perceive it how he wanted and then relating it back to like why it's important for us as a team because, because their X's are bigger than our O's or whatever that phrase was. Yeah, kind of. But, but we, we wanted to out team folks. Oh yeah. And so, so how did you miss being a great teammate on the, on the national team? Uh, it just, it like, i had started to learn a little bit about

being a teammate but still like that competitive edge was like hard for me to tone down and then on the national team in the beginning i felt like i was like in shark infested waters okay so and so i went back into like you know protection mode yeah more of a fear-based approach yeah yeah okay what do you think some of your teammates on the national team when they listen to this, that they're going to be thinking about this conversation now? Yeah. I think they'd be nodding their head to like the evolution that I've gone through and how much I've grown in particular in the last three or four years, but yeah. Okay. So it was hard for a lot of people to be around you at some point. Some people more than others, you know, but there were a lot of, that was also the model of the national team.

You know, a lot of people were hard to be around. Our culture wasn't great. And so, you know, I didn't have anyone pulling me aside and saying, hey, like we can do this differently. Or a coach saying, this isn't our culture. We can do this differently, you know. So again, not an accelerated path to learning, uh, kind of one of your strengths. Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. And you're still on the national team. All right. So I think we've got a sense of framework. Um, did we talk about the dark side? I know, I think we're going down that path. What is the dark side of pursuing your best or the best?

For me, it's been for the last 11 years, 250 days of the year out of the country. And which means that, you know, uh, my ties with some of my family aren't great with my friends. You know, I haven't been in great touch and I'm not great at being in touch. Uh, and so I've missed lots of weddings and, uh, things of that nature, babies being born. Or, you know, there's a while where my nephew and my niece, every time I'd come home, they'd ask their mom, like, who is that mommy? Because, you know, it's so hard to develop relationships on Skype or when you're a million miles away. So part of that, which is unique, I think, to volleyball in particular. That's certainly one of the costs. And, you know, it's just I look at many moments in my life. We talk about it being a lonely journey.

Like people don't understand why you're doing what you do. Like I would vent to my family occasionally, and they would automatically say, well, why don't you just do something else? And there's nothing wrong with that. That's what most people would say, you know, but they, they don't understand why we do what we do and, and our willingness to commit to doing something difficult that really doesn't feel good all the time for a long period of time. Like for me, I think that's really what separates an olympic athlete from those that try and fail or aren't able to even um take a step in that direction is is the ability to commit to doing something difficult and then prioritize it over other things like

family almost everything yeah geez and whether and everyone has has an Olympics, whether that is writing or whatever. Right. Yeah. Whew. Okay. Sorry. That's heavy. Yeah. No jam packed with like really rich thoughts about growth and how you managed you becoming you. Okay. So is there, is there like one point in time in your life that you go back and say, this was when I think about the most difficult moment in my life, it was this. Yeah. Walking away from my dad. I mean, there was a fight, you know, and he said things that I wouldn't forgive him for at the time. I don't remember what they are now, but how'd you do that? I, I don't know. I know, actually, I put up lots of walls as a coping mechanism. So, you know, one of the things that I don't know. I know, actually. I put up lots of walls as a coping mechanism. So, you know, one of the things that I didn't like about him, for example, that I started seeing myself was

anger. And I don't like the way I feel when I'm angry. But recently, I've been trying to embrace that. It's almost painful for me. To feel anger? Yeah, to feel anger. To allow myself to fully feel it. Oh, so you put up a wall so you wouldn't get angry you would just compete but not to get i mean i got angry you can't avoid it but i don't like the way i feel so i would do things not like to lessen that or i would do things it would be really hard to um for example get to know me um i would keep a very small circle of of friends that i trust if you weren't in, like you weren't getting to know me.

Okay. Um, so just to be vulnerable and like transparent, open, things like that, um, took a while for me to break down those walls. But I think that's how I dealt with, with walking away and not having my life. Um, it, you know, for a while it was just like, he was dead to me now. It's like, okay, I've embraced the fact that he's not dead. He's somewhere, but he's not changed. And then if, if you went back to that, what was that for age 14, you said? No, I was 20, 20, 19, 19, 20. That was the end. That was a lot. Okay. And then at 18 or 19 or 20,

whatever that is, rate your vulnerability, your ability to be vulnerable at that point. Let's go like a week after, like I started, the wall started coming up a little bit more zero to a hundred, a hundred being like the most vulnerable person, most vulnerability a person could demonstrate. And a zero is like, I had none. 10, 10. And then how about now? Uh, 90. Oh, wow. That's a big leap. That's the evidence of a lot of work.

I mean, I hope it's 90. Like I try. I try really hard to stay in that space. To be open, to be vulnerable. And then which means that you're going to say things that allow people to understand you. And those things could be used later in harmful ways. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't have had this conversation with you four years ago. Cool. What a gift. Yeah. What a gift. It's hard work. It is hard work. What are you hoping that, um, as a takeaway message for people

listening that they might be able to pull apart and maybe understand how to use something or do something better in their lives uh that it's okay if something's difficult uh it it doesn't have to be bad and that that life's not static. We're not static. And that absolutely we can change as people, even though, you know, sometimes it, it takes a little more pain for others or yeah, I don't know if that's eloquent, but for some, it takes more pain than others, I think is what I wanted to say, but that we, we can change. There's so much hope in that idea that, you know, when it's difficult, it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just difficult. That's like, there's a lot of wisdom in that

thought and you know, it, there's growth if you want it, right. It's there for you. You have to earn it though. It's not just going to happen, right. You have to earn it and work. Is there one or two or a couple practices or skills or ways that you have been working on vulnerability and or growth that have been important for you? Yeah, it started with journaling. And I did that for a very long time throughout my career. And then when was it? In 2012, I read 10 Minute Toughness. There's a piece in there kind of about highlight reels and visualization.

So I started visualizing, and then that kind of morphed into mindfulness practice for the last, I would say, three years. What does a mindfulness practice look like for you? Is it consistent? Is it long? Is it short? Is it quick? Is there particular questions you ask yourself, is it, is it like a ongoing focus? single point, just focusing on your breath, some relaxation, some visualization, some, um, what's it called? Uh, kind of when you like focus on a ball, watch the ball go up to that.

What, what do you call that? Like stimulation. Yeah. So just like watching, like training your mind for focus. Yeah. Um, so it was 23 minutes of all that. Uh, and then lately it's just sitting by myself and, uh, from, you know, sometimes I'll, I'll just in the middle of the day, I'll sit when I feel like, when I feel like attention coming, I'll just stop. Whatever you feel like, what coming attention, like I can feel when I start to become overwhelmed by things around me okay and i'll just i'll just lay for for five six seven minutes okay um lately i've been trying to do mindfulness in the morning when i wake up damn it's hard it's really hard yeah what i find and what what i'm interested to hear you talk about as well is like I'll get through the first breath and my mind immediately starts going.

It's incredible. Whereas like when I do it in the middle of the day, for example, like it's almost easier to stay connected to the breath and my mind wanders less. I don't know if I'm trying to stay awake, you know, like that's how my mind's trying to keep me awake is by like just thinking about everything. In the morning. Yeah. But I think that stringing two breaths together is challenging. It's so hard. Any time of the day.

Yeah. And so it's a relentless practice to come back to now and whatever that single point focus is or to stay connected to observing the nature of your thoughts. And so I don't have like this important insight, I think about it other than it is really hard. And that sounds just about right. And I think the more you do it, sometimes I think the harder it becomes, because you become more aware. It seems when I, when I first started down that path, it seemed like, oh, that's easy. Just focus on one thing. Oh, that's easy. Just watch my thoughts. Like I have a lot of thoughts. I can just watch them. And then all of a sudden I'm in first person experience in the thought, you know, and it's like, wait a minute, that's not it. And so I, I think that

it does become more challenging, but it's also really, really simple. You know, it's like it's the simplicity of it is what is really amazing. And I think you're right on the path. Are you doing it with sheets on or sheets like are you out of bed or are you doing it with sheets on where you're just focusing on breathing for a few moments? So I've been setting an alarm six to ten minutes early and it'll, it'll click and sheets on. And then I go through 10 minutes of attempted mindfulness training. And then I cap that off with a morning mind mindset that we do, which is 90 seconds. I've already done the deep breath, but thought of gratitude, sudden intention for the day. And then, you know, sheets off, get grounded before I get my day going.

And then I'll sneak in another mindfulness midday or whenever I can. I try and do it. I joke that I have like brain fade between three and four. So, uh, I've been trying to do it like then so that I get a, like a recuperation or recovery out of it as well. Um, but it's not tried and true consistent, you know, but, um, it's, it's close to being, I'm certainly attempting daily. The quality of it, you know, varies, but sounds like mine too. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There's challenges in it and it's just, part of it is just the practice of it. Okay. So take us back to, um, uh, competing on the world stage, take us back into the parts where you were either trying

to make the team or you're new into that process and the mental skills that allowed you to stay with it. Was it just strictly, listen, it's just, I was a competitor or is there other stuff like when you were trying to make it, when you didn't know if you had what it took to be on the national team, which, and give us some context about the national team meaning the american national team is one of the best in the world and so like i know i asked you two questions in there maybe six but yeah if you could just take that yeah so the usa team is one of the best in the world for my position you only take one whereas other positions for example a setter a setting position,

they take two. For the middles, it's usually three. For the outside hitters, it's usually four. So for the liberal position, it's like you're either the best on the team or you're not. And then if you just get some perspective on that, if the team's one of the best in the world, that means you're either one of the best in the world or you're not, and that you're competing with other people who are some of the best in the world. And so it feels cutthroat. It feels like if you don't go to a tournament, then, oh, damn, I'm not going to make an Olympic team, even if the Olympics are three years away, you know? And so... Was that real or just the thought that kept, that was pervasive to keep people sharp?

Yeah. At some point in the quad, because of the nature of the role, because you're on the court all the time, because you are a leader on the court at some point that role solidifies. So if you're, if you're the starting Libro, for example, the year before the Olympics, all things being equal, likely you'll be the starting Libro the year of the Olympics, uh, just because it, there needs to be consistency. There needs to be developed relationships, you know? And, uh, whereas like if you're an outside hitter, you're just coming out Just because there needs to be consistency. There needs to be developed relationships. Whereas if you're an outside hitter, you're just coming out of college and you're like a physical phenom, you can earn a spot on the team if it's the year before the Olympics. It doesn't happen very often, but it's a different role.

And then the other part of it is that if I look at last quadrennial, so the four years leading up to the London Olympics, we had 88 women in the gym training on and off. And we take 12. And that roster is announced a month before the Olympics. So it's essentially a three and a half year tryout period where every ball you touch is statted. Every drill you win or lose is statted. Feels like kind of your interactions with people are also statted as well. And so I don't know that I had great mental skills for the first eight years of my career. The way that I stayed in it was by competing and outworking people, which meant that I stayed and did, you know, an hour of extra reps

every day, or I did extra cardio every day. I did extra weights. So it was extra. It was extra. It was extra. And then what did you do as soon as your muscles were blowing up with all the lactic acid and brandykinase and like, it just was hard to be in your own body like what would you do then fortunately i was younger yeah so just keep grinding you know um but i started to learn probably in 2011 that there's a difference between quantity and quality and started to listen to my body a little bit more started to try to index more on great prehab and recovery and nutrition um but and the science was just coming around in america for that around you know yeah i don't know the last 10 years so it wasn't even a conversation for many athletes and teams prehab yeah the measuring quality yeah i still felt quite

a bit of unease though if i didn't do do extra, like it was a, like a safety blanket for me. Yeah. And so. Anxiety can kick up when you're not doing what you know was successful in the past. Yeah. But, but have an idea that to move forward, it's going to kill me. It's going to blow me up. But how did you know to keep, not know, how did you stay in it?

I still don't understand. Like when it was really difficult and you said, I'm going to go do more. Was it as simple as a thought? Like you made up your mind that I'm just going to go for another 45 minutes or 15 minutes. I just really wanted to go to another Olympics and, uh, thought that on my best day I had what it took. And so my, I tried to like consistently think about what my desk, my best day felt like, feels like, and then work towards that Olympics. You know, like the first four years, it was just there. It was a lot of naivete, like just grind and grind and grind.

And hopefully I'll make it, you know, and emotionally, I probably wasn't all in until 2007 to the process. And then the second four years, it was, it was just knowing that I could outwork people. Cause I did that before and hoping, you know, that I didn't have any injuries, but I wanted to go to another Olympics and I believe that we could win a gold medal and we hadn't done that before. I didn't know if we had like the culture to do it. And that was a struggle certainly at times, but it was just this idea of like going to another Olympics. Okay. And then is there a word or a phrase that guides your life? Um, if I had to say a word, it would be curiosity, but that's not part of my philosophy. That's just like who I am. But I, I feel like I have the curiosity of the kids. Like you see, you see kids and they like want to know about everything.

And I'm the same way. And I remember being that, like that, a kid as a kid, like I would ask a lot of questions and my parents would say, why do you ask so many questions? I don't know. And then I'd ask another question, you know, and, and I'm the same way now. Like when I listened to your podcast, something will strike me and I'll go Google it or I'll go get on another podcast and listen to that same person. Talk about like Steven Kotler, talk about flow state. I just like, I want to know about everything. And that includes like people as well now.

Um, and part of that is I've traveled the world. I think people are amazing and I've been able that is i've traveled the world i think people are amazing and i've been able to see that all over the world but i just i have such like a thirst for things around me like wanting to know why and how and what and so that's i guess it that's quite different from my philosophy as a person but what are you searching for um probably a couple years ago it said happiness until you told me that was BS. Did I ruin your happiness? Yeah, you ruined my happiness dreams. No, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm searching to be full. What does that mean to you? Really? It goes back to like embracing

all parts of me, all parts of like life and, uh, and to be able to continue to, to think big, um, because I think it feels like that's not normal. Uh, I had a, a journalist who's followed my career, uh, since the day I started playing volleyball interview me last week. And he said, did you ever imagine when you're playing volleyball that your life would be as full as it is now. And I, I thought, yeah, of course, you know, like it, there was no question. I didn't know what it would look like or what it sound like, what it'd feel like, but yeah, why not? And, uh, and then like this idea of like risking, you know, like leaning into risk, it's, it, it's less easy, the older I get. Um, but how do you risk? What are the mechanics for, of risk taking for you? Like what goes into it? Yeah. For me, it's just, um, understanding like the emotional response to it. Like, Whoa, like we all have that moment where they're like, there's like a hesitation and it's emotional. It's not physical. And it's like, okay, like I have a decision to make here. Do I like go for it or do I turtle, or do I lean away?

And so when I think about the first time you asked me to present in front of a room on day three at Win Forever, it's like, no, I'm not ready. I've got a story to tell. It's going to be clunky, but might as well try. That's right. Yeah, you're literally thrown into the shark den. And so it's like, what's the worst that can happen? Might as well try, you know? That's right. Yeah. Why not? You're literally thrown into the shark den. And so it's like, what's the worst that can happen?

I can feel really crappy about myself afterwards. And or other people could think that you don't have what it takes and then you miss that opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. But what I know is that I'm going to learn from it. There you go. Yeah. For the long arc. Yeah.

Yeah. Nice. Okay. How about this thought? It all comes down to, I think it comes down to your thoughts. Keep going. Yeah. How you see a moment, your interpretation of a moment. Yeah. Okay. And then, so that leads like, if we pull on that as a, as a competitor on the world stage, as an athlete who experienced

incredible success, how important are the mental skills to the game, to, to being on the world stage, to sustaining excellence? What, what, how important is the mental game? I can't speak for other people, but I, I I certainly witnessed some things. And so at least for myself, I would say it was, you know, 70%. And was I great at it? No. You know? And so you can be on the world stage and not have great mental skills makes it just like really easy to be you in a, in a moment that feels big or looks big to other people. And my ability to do that was wavering

at the end of my career. How did you look at the Olympics? I only, I really only understand two ways to look at the games. One is it's the most important and the biggest tournament ever in the world. You know, like it's only every four years and the whole world is watching. And so let's prepare for that. You know, let's prepare for all of the cameras, all of the eyeballs, uh, the great competition that's going to be there. Everyone's bringing their heat or the other side of it is like, there's going to be a lot of stuff happening that is unfamiliar, but it's just another game. And because it's just

another game, I know what to do. I'm going to practice doing me right now in this quiet little gym where there's no one around. And I'm just going to like not get lost in the noise because I'm going to train the same way I train and perform the same way I always do. How did you look at the games? Yeah, the latter would be ideal. Certain, certainly something we strive for. At least I remember us having those conversations, uh, before the 2012 Olympics, but reality is one for, for volleyball, at least it is the pinnacle of our sport. And two, it does feel different. It is a much grander operation. You know, it feels different than any other tournament we compete at. And so it's like when it feels different, can you manage it?

And I, you know, I didn't manage it well. You did not? No. Oh, okay. I mean, I would say in the gold medal match, I didn't manage it well. You did not? No. Oh, okay. I mean, I would say in the gold medal match, I didn't manage it well. But I had a good tournament. Was there a particular experience that you're thinking of? Yeah, just against Brazil, I felt really anxious.

Is this in 2012? Yeah, in 2012? Yeah. In 2012. Uh, cause you know, they had, um, picked on me a bit during that quad when I had had some like difficult moments and I was, I was not sure how I could be in that moment. You know, like what I, there were times where I like would succumb to that pressure and then other times where I would rise and it wasn't really consistent. And in my opinion, that comes down to like my mental skills weren't consistent. And so there was for me like a question of like how I would be versus like, this is just another game. Got it. Yeah.

So do you remember, so you'd already been to one Olympics. You'd already had incredible success. You've been on world championship teams or team. And now you're in the Olympics again. And you, on world championship teams, uh, or team, and now you're in the, in, in the Olympics again. And you, so past success and past history didn't have as much weight as you might hope. Yeah. I got, I trained for, what is it? 10,000 hours. I'd done my 10,000 hours, you know, I'd been on the world stage, we'd won gold medals and um and you know we'd lost as well but we had had brazil's number leading up to that but they had had my number at times as well you know so

um i just yeah i didn't i didn't know how to be all of me in that moment so and so what what was happening the last year and a half of the quad is that I would start matches tight and then like work into it and be okay by the end of the match. But they had picked up on that. And then, so they would, they would target me early. And then as I would like work into it and feel comfortable, then they would go away from me and target someone else. And, uh, I knew that was coming, but I, I like wasn't okay. If you could rewind and go back to 2012, which we can't do, we can learn from.

But if you could go back and rewind, some people listening are going to be entering their 2012, which is a game, a pitch meeting, a challenging conversation with a loved one, whatever that thing is that feels really big, where your response was to tighten up. Um, and if you could, if you could really unpack how to help somebody yourself now, but somebody, um, to train, to be able to be a little bit more, as you call the, the better version of yourself or the fuller version of yourself, what would be some of those training strategies looking back now that you would say, okay, if I just did this a little bit better, I thought differently about it, or I practice breathing or I practice something, you know, what would it be? Because it wasn't probably nutrition. It wasn't being physically sharper. It thought it was all mental.

Yeah. Yeah. So. Gosh, there's a lot. There's a lot of layers you could go into. So one, I would say I wish I'd started a consistent mindfulness practice when I was 14. I don't know, like years ago, but at least, you know, after the first Olympics have been great. And then, uh, to like, in those moments where things feel big around you and you feel overwhelmed, like what do you stand for? Like, who are you,

you know, like doing the work ahead of time to know like who you are and then what's possible for you so that like you can have conviction at the moment in that moment so that the demands of the moment don't feel bigger than you. And then, yeah, the ability to generate calm, to be able to take a deep breath and start a match or a game or an event less agitated or less activated. And then… You know that's how most people like start meetings or start their conversation, even on an introduction. When people are going around in a room of 12 people and you say, what is your name and what do you do? Like heart rate comes up even right in that moment. It's really sometimes difficult to be

yourself because we're consumed with what other people think of us. And when that takes place, it's like, it becomes too big. Yeah. Trying to manage everyone else's thoughts is really difficult to do. Yeah. And so when that takes place for an athlete, what happens is your field of vision narrows, which makes it really difficult to see all the cues that you need to see in real time. So, and I, I remember being aware of that. Like I, I could feel when I was too activated or not, I didn't have language around it, but I could feel like a narrowness in my sight where I wasn't seeing things that when it's good to be me, it was like in slow motion, you know? What does it sound like when it's good to be you? What is happening inside of you? Okay, wait, before you answer it, I love the grin that you're giving right now. I love the grin.

Hold on before you answer. I love that question. I know I asked the question, but I love that question because what I hope is that people listening are going, hold on, pause. And literally right now they pause and they go, what is it? What am I like at my best? That becomes the target. And then all of the training is to have more moments of that in any environment, whether it's on the court or off the court or in the living room, wherever you might be. Okay. So if you haven't, if you haven't answered the question for yourself, like literally press pause, isn't it a good question? Yeah. Okay. For you, what, what is it like? Can I cuss? You do any? Yeah. Yeah. It's just you and me and the hundreds of thousands

of people that are listening. Yeah. Uh, no, it sounds, it sounds like not today, bitch. Like someone hitting a ball at me, for example, it's like lipping, not today. Like I got you. Okay. That sort of thing. Um, or yeah. Yeah. Stuff like that. I don't want to curse too much, but yeah. Oh yeah. It's good. But there, so there still is a bite in an edge. It's like, listen, you can try, but not today. Not today. Today's not your day. Yeah.

Yeah. And what that sounds like it's backing up is this idea that you have whatever it takes to adjust. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then have you had moments in time when you didn't have it and you got it back? Or was there cases when it started bad and you never could quite get free? There was one case that I remember where it started bad and I couldn't get free.

But that was maybe a unique situation. I definitely learned that I could start bad and finish good. It's just, God, it's exhausting. I mean, you feel like you've ran a marathon at the end of like a two and a half hour match. Fast forward all of the experiences you've had and everything, all the pain and all the challenge and all the stuff that you felt. What is a bright line takeaway that maybe you would hope some just cute little bubbly 12 year old could say or a parent could say to a 12 year old? Like just just focus on. Yeah. Confidence isn't from preparation. It comes from the things that you say to yourself. And

I was horrible to myself. My self-talk was horrible. And, and so to get that right. And part of that starts with like, do you have an awareness of what your self-talk is like? But man, you can, you can shoot a shot 10,000 times in a row. But if when the world is watching, you're saying to yourself, what if I mess up? Man, that's like going to Vegas, you know? Roll the dice. And you don't want to roll the dice when something matters so much to you. Why are we not teaching the mechanics of confidence?

It's so simple to understand. It just comes from what you say to you. Why do, why are we not teaching the mechanics of confidence? It's so simple to understand. It just comes from what you say to yourself. Why are we not, what do we need to do better growing up into the American system of youth development? Why are, what do we need to do better to get our young athletes or young coaches to understand, spend three minutes a day and help kids understand their thoughts. It will pay dividends to your club, to the kid, to whatever. I'm not sure. I mean, obviously our education system has lots of issues to begin with. Oh, you would put it in education. You wouldn't put it in sport. To be honest, I think it's the, if if i'm being really honest it's the job of a parent i think it's it starts with the parent and then it'd be great if it's reinforced in education

and then reinforced in sport is is that likely that all parents can be sophisticated sure they're all like trying their hardest my parents told me all the time go be confident you can be confident what's that you're okay how do you do that? Right. Yeah. I didn't know. Yeah. Well, they don't know. Most people don't know. Like when we talk about confidence, most people say it's belief in oneself or preparation, which, yeah, maybe there's some truth to that. But in the moment when you're trying to do something, it really comes down to like, what are you saying to yourself about doing that thing that's right and i don't know if we teach any mental skills in education systems or unless you're taking a psychology class in in at a university the other thing is that we hear that all around in society

whether it's in movies or whether it's putting a super skinny girl on the, on the cover of shape magazine and teaching kids that that's what they should look like. How do you have confidence? Like, how do you say nice things to yourself when that's not what you look like? The same goes for guys, you know? So I think it's pervasive in, in, in lots of areas of our life. God, the value of this. Okay. Brilliant. All right. Um, let's go back to pressure comes from, um, pressure comes from the things you say to yourself. Like, uh, I think pressure comes from, it's internal for you. Yeah.

It's not the external demands. It's the internal response. I think your response to the, the external demands, how you think about i think your response to the the external demands how you think about it is gonna make you feel like you're under pressure or not yeah there you go love i think it's rare i think it's beautiful but i think it's rare like real love lasting love love where two people are just working and striving to maintain it to make it better i think it's rare is it important to you yeah it is so you're looking for it yeah you want that in your life are you in love now no no okay have you been in love yeah yeah okay relationships i think it's interesting for me to say this before because I didn't value them as much earlier in my life, but I think it's everything.

Like what would life be like if we existed as individuals in a bubble? Could be really depressing. That's an awful thought. Flow state or flow. For me, it's like the most free place i can imagine like freedom is a social construct like flow state is like incredible it's like nothing can touch you how often do you think that you experience that now as a non-competitively athletic focused person you're still probably well not probably knowing you you are very competitive

and i don't understand you as being competitive to be better than others, but being your very best. So how often do you find flow now? I think I work to put myself in challenging situations constantly. So I think I'm still like finding it every day. It's just a really different context, you know. Balls aren't flying at my head at 60 miles per hour and not diving on the floor and doing crazy things with my body it's much different but uh i still i'm still finding it daily uh what what are you searching for in life yeah did i answer that

question i think i asked it and i think we started joking about happiness. Yeah. Fulfillment. Fulfillment, yeah. To be full. Have you found that or are you still searching? Yeah, I find little glimpses of it every day. For me, we're on a journey without an end point. Obviously, the end point is death for all of us at some point. And I'm not a religious or spiritual person, so I can't take it further than that. But, um, for me it's like a daily quest. It's not something like at the end of

the rainbow, you know, like how full did I live my life today? That's, that's what you're saying. Like how full was it today? Okay. I love it. And then my vision, if you feel that my vision, I had like three questions I want to ask you, but my vision. Yeah, my vision is just to make a ripple anywhere I go. So for me, an impact is a little different than a ripple. An impact is like you meet someone and you say something and it impacts their life. But a ripple is like there's an effect that leaves that person and that goes to another person and goes to another person, goes to another person. What a beautiful idea.

Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Not that you need any approval from me, but what would it be like? Yeah, that's a beautiful idea. All right. And then I am. That's a great question.

I don't know how to answer that. Like I'm often misunderstood would be one way to answer that. I think. How do you want to be understood? I think if I could like pull back a layer and for people to see that, it's still difficult. Not that I'm not trying to be transparent, but there is a way about me that people don't understand. And I don't know if it's the way I carry myself or that I'm so comfortable with who I am. Not in the sense that I'm a perfect person, but I've done so much work to get to a space and I'm still working that I'm comfortable with that. Not, I hate the word comfortable

because it sounds like I'm okay. And I know, you know, like comfort is a killer potential. Like I'm not content. I'm comfortable with who I am in my skin, but I think people often don't know how to be around me because of that that sounds like a challenge yeah that's so there's some work on that front right and which is also now maybe having I'm thinking as I'm talking when I talk like this like geez like I'm gonna stop talking yeah like I'm trying to figure out like it's something to say for you there but i it's obvious that that would be the next place for you to go which is that there's some ease it sounds like at least that you're looking for some more ease so that you can express what you've come to understand and learn yeah yeah great way to put it okay mastery journey without an end point oh you prepared for this

no i just i i believe that a journey without an end point yeah and so we're all on a journey so what is unique about mastery um there's just a way about people who have mastered something and it's an ease maybe is a good word you know but like there's an ease to the thing that they do it looks easy for people watching that's one of the things that actually i valued as a player was making things look easy versus you know there are players that kind of do extra things and make make spectacular like diving play out of like a free ball essentially you know like i really value that idea of like making things look easy because it means you you understand the nuances of your craft so well that to other people it just looks like a walk in the park that's really cool that's exactly i mean sometimes it's like a duck where

it's really smooth on the surface but there's a lot of work happening underneath. And sometimes that surface and underneath thing match and it really does feel easy and it looks easy. It's, it's kind of both. I think I love it. Okay. Uh, I want to share that it's been a joy to know you and to be working alongside you on the projects that we're working on corporate America. And for, for some that are not list or are new to this or haven't, I don't think we've ever talked about this really, is that Coach Carroll and I partnered up on some, you know, taking his intellectual property in mind and figuring out how to switch on culture and to switch on mindset of people that want to pursue potential. And that's what he and I have been fortunate enough to spend time with. And then how can we capture that and share it? there was only a couple people that we called and you're

one of those people so it's been it's really been a lot of fun it has hasn't it it has and the arc of learning like you said you're good at learning and i've never heard you say that the arc of learning that you've gone on in the last like six months has been radical. Yeah. It's been so much fun though. Yeah. Learning the mental part and the cultural building part and how to share that with other people. Is that where you're the, so I bet the ripple thing is really cool for you.

Yeah. There's not a day that we finish with our clients where someone doesn't come up and say, Hey, uh, I have a 14 year old daughter. Like, how do I take this home to her? Or man, this was the most transformative day I've ever had here at, at our organization, you know? So that's, that's pretty cool. You know, I'm, I'm volunteer coaching at USC right now with kind of the same hope in mind that my experience can be, can provide an accelerated learning curve for the girls, you know, like how do i help them impact culture so that they can great be great people for each other because

i didn't know how to do that like or how can i teach them mental skills so that they can be great to themselves because i didn't know how to do that you know and to learn those lessons earlier so that they can just be comfortable in any moment. Yeah. Jeez. So to see you in front of a room of, you know, 300 to 500 people, and then being able to teach the mental skills and the mechanics of people to be and pursue their very best and then have them come up afterwards and say, Oh, like, so we feel privileged to be able to do this with you. And then, um, some folks that are, have listened to Ariana Kukor's earlier podcast or previous, uh, previously recorded podcast, like to have the two of you

in a room is really, you know, the insight and the wisdom and the bite and the balance and the whole thing for you guys is really special. We love it. And I'm, I'm speaking for Ariana right now, but we love it. And one of the things that I love about it is we're teaching other people, but I'm learning myself. Isn't that the case? My growth over the last six months has been exponential relative to my growth over the last 20 years. And so I feel very fortunate to be going down this path with you all. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you.

Okay. Nicole, thank you for coming on. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. Okay. Nicole, thank you for coming on. Thanks for sharing. There's been some challenge in the conversation. There's been some, um, really bright moments that captured some thinking and methodologies to be able to help people become better. And you have a great way of making the very complicated, very simple. So thank you. Cool. Thank you. Yeah. Where can we find more about what you're doing? All of my social media is Nicole M Davis six. So Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Um, so I'm on all of that and hopefully those will get updated soon. Okay.

Say it again. Nicole M. Yes. Nicole M as in Marie Davis six. And then obviously our company has a website, www.winforever.com. All right. there we go. And inside of that, so go online, ask, ask Nicole some questions here about like, I don't know, all of the insight that she's had today.

And so find her on social. And then you can also, if you like this podcast and enjoyed the insights from some of the best in the world, go to iTunes and find Finding Mastery and subscribe and maybe write a review if you can. And then also on the social aspect is at Michael Gervais, facebook.com forward slash Finding Mastery are the two places to engage in the conversation. So again, thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show

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