Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Olympic Gold Medalist: Other People Were Killing My Confidence (And How I Got It Back) - Caroline Marks

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

What if the key to becoming a champion isn’t about chasing wins—but knowing when to pause, prioritize the inner work, and trust that the rest will follow?On today’s episode, filmed in front of a live audience at California Surf Club, we sit down with Caroline Marks — the 2023 World Surf League Women’s Champion and 2024 Olympic Gold Medalist. By 23, Caroline has already reached the pinnacle of her sport, becoming one of the most dominant surfers of her generation. But what makes her story remarkable isn’t just the medals—it’s the emotional and psychological work behind them.In this conversation, Caroline opens up about rebuilding after the heartbreak of Tokyo, the self-doubt that almost sidelined her, and how therapy, family, and faith in herself helped her rediscover her love for surfing. Dr. Mike and Caroline unpack what it means to train not just the body, but the mind—to develop emotional awareness, to redefine success, and to keep the joy alive in high-stakes environments.You’ll learn:How to rebuild confidence and purpose after a major setbackWhy emotional awareness is the foundation for high performanceThe key to balancing ambition with inner peaceHow to strengthen trust—in yourself and in othersWhat it means to find motivation after reaching the topWhy mastering your emotions is a major competitive advantageThis is a powerful look into the mindset of a young champion who’s rewriting what it means to win...inside and out. Tune in to hear how Caroline Marks is defining mastery on her own terms.________________________________________Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryLocation: Thanks to California Surf Club, 239 N Harbor Dr, Redondo Beach, CA.Get exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Carolina is the youngest surfer ever to qualify for the world championships do. Carolyn Mark's a season, crusty veteran at the age of 16. Defending world surf league champion, she has her eyes set on the goal. What I took time off, it was like six months of like intensive therapy. Like I didn't touch a surfboard. Like it was all like, okay, who's Caroline? What if the key to becoming a champion isn't about chasing wins, but knowing when to pause? As a surfer, like, you start very young and you finish very young, you're learning so much about yourself. But you're also put on the stage of like, you're supposed to be perfect and have everything figured out.

Welcome back. We're welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Jervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is simple to sit with the extraordinaries and to learn, really learn how they work from the inside out.

Today's guest is Caroline Marks, the 2003 World Surf League women's champion, and the 2024 Olympic Games. gold medalist. What makes Caroline remarkable is not just her talent in the water, it's her humility, her mental strength, her commitment to using her platform to elevate women's sports around the world. Being vulnerable is actually really powerful, and a lot of people feel like the things that I've felt. And so once I was open about that, I was like, well, so many people can relate to this and

like, I'm not alone. In this conversation, we talk about how she rebuilt herself after the heartbreak of the Tokyo Olympics. Surfing, it's so cutthroat. no team medal. It's like all on you. It's kind of emotional for me. Like when I was just in that state of mind, I was so like low, you know, and it was pretty sad. But at the same time, it's so beautiful too because like I know where I'm at now. And the best things in my career have happened after I went through the hardest time of my life. And it's such like a big

part of my story. And now I'm almost proud of it. With that, let's jump into this week's conversation, Caroline Marks. Caroline, this is thing I wanted to do for a long time is to be able to reflect and celebrate who you are. And first of all, congratulations on your entire body of work and how much that you have done in a very short amount of time. So thank you for being here and thank you for including us in your adventure and journey. Amazing. Thanks for having me. It's been a while, like five years since I've seen you. So I feel like this is a long time coming. Yeah, really happy to be here. It was a bit of a blur.

Like the Tokyo Games was, in my mind, a very special game. And it was your first Olympics. And, you know, one of the coolest things across all the games that I've been able to participate in, you have a very special place, if not the coolest moment that I've experienced in the games. And so it was, I don't know if you remember much of this, but it stood out to me, like, above all else. Of course you wanted to win, you know. and you were in the conversation to podium at the games. You lost your heat and your teammate, who is also your competitor.

Like top competitor. I mean, she's one of the best in the world as well. Sure. Right. And so we're talking about Carissa Moore. You lost your heat and you were out of metal contention. I didn't see what you did, but I know you gathered yourself. I think you went back to our house and then you came back to the beach.

and then you waited and you watched and you were one of the first people to celebrate her when she was winning the thing that you so, so wanted. And then to top it off, I think you were the first person at the house to greet her again when this championship moment was taking place, the thing that you wanted, and you were grieving, you were going through the loss of that grief. And at the same time, you were able to celebrate somebody who had. had the exact same thing that you had hoped for. It was one of the coolest moments I've ever seen in Olympic sport.

And I knew at that moment, your talent speaks for itself. But I knew in that moment, bet on Caroline. She has the championship stuff. And so thank you for that moment and that memory. It was really cool. Amazing. That's awesome. Yeah, you shared that story like perfectly.

Now that you were saying it, I remember everything. Like, yeah, it was a crazy moment because getting forth in the Olympics, as you know, like, that was my first time. And like, I didn't really realize in that moment, like, how much that was a bummer, you know, like in the moment I was like super sad, but then I think afterwards, after the fact, and just realizing, like, whoa, like, this opportunity's not going to come back for four years. And that's if you make the teaming at, like, who knows what's going to happen. Injuries can happen. Like, you can have an off year. Like, so many things can happen. Um, and so that actually took me a couple years to get

over. And it was an interesting thing because Carissa, as a person, I love so much, but she's also my competitor. So it's like this funny thing where like, I'm like so happy to celebrate her, but I'm like, gosh, I want that so bad, you know? But looking back, I'm really proud of how I handled that situation. And it didn't, it wasn't like I was trying to put on a show. Like, that's just genuinely like I was just doing what I wanted. And that's what felt right to do. And, and I'm, I'm so grateful, like, that's how the turnout turned out for her. And then obviously now that I have a goal that feels a lot better. But, you know, like, It all worked out, you know, but in the moment, I was like, damn, like, that was something that stung really hard because I was just like, well, even if I would have got a bronze, like, you know how, like, you go all the Olympics and it's so cool. You're an Olympian forever. But like, as a competitor, like, you just want to win. And if you don't get that, like, it's so hard. And surfing, it's so cutthroat. Like, there's no team medal. It's like all on you. And like, it's either like you're the man or you're the woman or it's just like no one really cares, you know? So, yeah.

that was a really hard moment, but also really a beautiful moment. And yeah, that was a, it was cool that you were there to experience that. Like that was, yeah, it was really fun. We had a great trip, though, overall. Was that fun? A lot of fun. We could spend the rest of this podcast celebrating all of the laughs and the cries and the whole, like, the Olympic Games are for big emotions. And if you can't work with big emotions, you get blown right out. And what you're talking about is the complexity of multiple emotions at the same time. Technically, you can't more than one emotion in an instant, in a moment. So you can have a moment, let's just say a moment of sadness. And then you might replace it with a moment of fear. You might have a moment of

anger. So each moment uniquely has its own emotional experience. But the complexity of what you're talking about, seeing a friend win, knowing that that's the thing that you want. So you had sadness, you had a yearning, you had a regret, you had all of those things. And you still were the one, to give her love, to give her support. I'm telling you, if we could bottle that sophistication up as a 19 year old, you're 19. 19, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. It was overwhelming all those feelings, like hearing you say it out loud. Yes, it's an overwhelming thing because you're just like every emotion. There's so many different ones and everything's like we were talking about like a scale of one to 10 of how you feel even before we walked in here. Like how you feel it. Like that four

to six is like the range where you want to be in. Like everything felt like. Everything felt like. like a 10 at the Olympics. Like everything's just so heightened, you know, so. Well, let's just explain that. Like, I think there's a really powerful tool that folks like yourself are very skilled at. But if you imagine zero to 10 on a scale of emotional intensity or body activation, a 10 is like, I feel like I want to throw up. I'm so nervous, so activated, so switched on. And a one is like, I'm totally bored. So we're looking for that four, five, and six, that middle range. A seven is like, I'm okay, but there's a little extra. And eight is like, man, I'm kind of losing myself here.

So what are the ways that you back down from a, let's say, an eight to a seven to a six to a five? Breathing is a really big one. And just like being where your feet are, you know, you obviously can't control what's going to happen in front of you, especially in surfing. Like, you know, you're competing against the ocean and yourself, really. Like you have a competitor out there, but like the ocean is just so unpredictable. it's the great equalizer like you don't know what's going to happen ever and you can have this

perfect plan with your coach and the ocean can just surprise you so i think you have to be very good at adapting and that's where breathing is really helpful and just being like okay like for example you know you have two minutes left you need to score like you don't know if a wave's going to come but just kind of being where where you are and breathing i think is a really big one and being around like i call them like my feel good people whether that's like my parents or friends or a coach whatever like I think being around people that make me feel good help me feel a lot better and I am such a people person so that really helps me so between those two things so you use your breathing to ground yourself to relax your activation system perfect great signs there and then you use your social community to help

also ground you and kind of keep it real for you if you will yeah and you said feel good meaning that they'll laugh with you they'll point out some obvious stuff they'll tell you when you're you know I don't know when your zippers down and you got a bugger in your nose or whatever, right? And they'll just keep it that way. For sure. Yeah. But I think like just my, those feel good people too. Like they just sometimes know me better than I know myself.

Like they know when to lift me up, but also no one to be critical because that's important too. You don't want like yes men around you all the time because that's not going to get you anywhere. You know, so my brothers have been great for that. A lot of constructive criticism growing up. A lot of tears. Honestly, they were pretty hard on me up until I got the world title and the gold medal. I'm like, until then I'm like, finally you guys are me a little night.

to me because accomplished everything in the sport. Thank you very much. But I think it's important to have people like that, too, that tell you that, you know, it's real sometimes. Stuff you don't want to hear. Finding Master is brought to you by Momentus. We tend to think about creatine as something for athletes, for power, for muscle, for strength. But what often gets missed here is that our brains rely on creatine, just like our body does. Your brain burns about 20% of your body's total energy. It means every thought, every decision, every late-night brainstorming. It depends on that same cellular energy system that powers our muscles. And over the last several years, there's been a lot of research around creatine.

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family over to connect, to reconnect. It's also a great time to make small changes that have long lasting ripple effects. Right now, you can get 15% off and free shipping on their premium starter kit at branchbasics.com slash finding mastery. When you use the code finding mastery, I think you're really going to love it. Again, that's branch basics.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery to get started. I do want to talk about how you grew up and what your parents and family did to support and challenge you. They have been foundational for you. You talk about them so much so often.

Could you point to two things that your parents did really well? And two things that you've seen, maybe other parents on tour. And you were like, wow, I'm so thankful. My parents didn't do those things. Yeah. Well, I think the number one thing, like my parents' priority, like, if they're right, like they would tell you the same thing. their main priority was just raising a good person.

Like, they didn't really care about, I mean, like, they think it's cool that I do what I do. I hope. But, like, I don't think they really care. Like, they're just like, we want you to be a good person, respectful, like, and, you know, know how to do the dishes, not to do the laundry, whatever, things like that. You have a great education and also. Did you finish high school? I did finish high school.

Didn't go to college, but finish high school. Yeah, I ask, and you know this, but I think most won't know that most people on tour like high school is kind of optional totally yeah for sure yeah and I think the other thing that they're just like they had you finish yes they had me finish I was like still I was on the tour finishing high school and then I like walked down the aisle of my mom's house because it was during COVID when I graduated it was your graduate yeah it was great I had fun and then the other thing wait before you go on you said a good person what defines a good person because it's more than making your bed totally yeah I um I um I

think just having like you know good morals and kind of yeah gratitude being respectful things like that is there one one value that is really important to you right now I think like trust is being very trustworthy I think that's a really big one just being solid I feel like if you're trustworthy you're just such a that's just such a solid foundation in a human to have you know I love the simplicity I don't know right like yeah I don't know I'm spitball in here but that's what I'm thinking But if I, so you're saying you're really solid if other people can trust you. Yeah, I like that. I guess so.

I don't know. I mean. Did you know there's three legs to the theory of trust? No, I tell me. Okay, good. So trust has three kind of legs to the stool, if you will. And this, this is pretty well documented and researched, is that if I'm trusting you, or let's do it in reverse.

If you're trusting me, do you trust my ability? do you trust my logic let's say that's one variable do you trust that i can go get something done that i say i'm going to get done okay so that's logic or ability the second is would do you trust it's called benevolence do you trust that i have your best interest and my best interest both of us in mind not that it's only good for me but it's good for we yeah and the other is integrity Do I show up the same way when it's super stressful and when it's really easy? So if I'm a different person, when it's stressful, you're like, I don't know. You kind of change, you switch codes a little bit there.

And man, it's always about good for Mike. I don't think he really cares about what's good for me. And the other is like, I don't think he can get it done. So that would be low trust. High trust is like, yeah, I think he can get it done. it's good for both of us and like he's kind of the same person yeah so that's right on yeah you're right on yeah that's cool i've never i've never heard that so if you're ever struggling with somebody that you don't trust it's one of those three things okay it's not like general it's one of those three i don't

think that they see what's good for both of us right it's all about them right or they just keep they keep like changing i don't know what to really i don't know what's real yeah or you know they think they're really good at this thing, but I don't trust that when there's pressure on it that they can actually execute. Totally. And like, I don't think that makes someone like a bad person like at all. It's just sometimes, I don't know, maybe you weren't taught that or just or they just don't really care about you that much, which is fine. I mean, yeah, it is what it is. So one more thing that makes your parents that you are super grateful that your parents did or said or it could be even something a specific, like a moment that they leaned over and whispered something to you or did something.

I think, I mean, I guess just with, like, surfing and stuff like that, like, they had a really healthy balance of, like, pushing me, but also not, like, making it a chore for me. And I think that's why I love surfing forever, you know, like, and obviously it ebbs and flows, like, when, you know, there's moments where you really love it. There's moments where it's, like, you're kind of tired and it's not as fun, whatever. But, like, I think forever, I'll surf forever no matter what, like, even when I'm done competing. And I'll have that joy still just because they never, like, forced me to do it, you know? it just all came for me. And when we were growing up, all my siblings, they were like,

hey, like, we just don't want you to go home and play video games. Like, we want you guys to do something. But whatever you choose to do, whether that's a sport or just a normal job, like, we'll just support you in that. And I think, like, that's why, like, just surfing, it came so natural. And I'm really grateful they approached it like that, you know, because my older brother was a professional surfer. And they could easily just force me into that. Like, oh, we see talent here and just force you into it. But I rode horses and then I dropped horseback riding and then picked up a surfboard, just naturally, just because I wanted to. And so I'm really grateful that they, it was never like a chore or anything. They weren't super hard on me. Do you remember a moment after

a loss, either a car ride home or walk from the beach, something that they said that has stuck with you that's really helped you? I think a lot of times, like, I've had a couple moments where I'm like, I'm over it. Like I can't take it, you know, like you just losing sucks so much. Like you blood, like blood, sweat and tears and you live, breathing, winning. Like you just want to want it so bad and um i think them just kind of like hey you don't you don't have to like it's okay like we love you the same i think that's a that's been a really big one for me just like we just we just love you like it's all good you know and then i'm like wait a second no i don't want to style you know i like i love i love it it's you know what i mean yeah but um i never actually

wanted to quit like i you know but like you have moments where you just get so frustrated and i think a lot of athletes can probably relate to that um where you just feel so low um but yeah I'm my parent like I'm so grateful for them and they're a huge reason for my success and how I am today and like I'm just super grateful for them their identity is not wrapped in your success as an athlete like they have totally their own thing going on like my whole family like they everyone does different things like you know no one's like they don't even not that they don't care it's just they don't need me or anything like that you know they totally have their own things going on which is really cool and it's cool because my family serves it's something we can

do together, and it's something we can all share together, which is so special and awesome, you know, and what makes our journey so special is sharing it with people you love, and I'm just really grateful for that. Like, sometimes, like, seeing, I mean, like, all these experiences, even, like, you know, one of the cool things about the games this year is that we were able to have family there and, like, it made that moment so much more special because I can, like, share that with my mom, share that with my dad, like, my brothers, like, if I had no one there with me, like, it wouldn't have been as cool, you know, like, I would have been stoked, but it wouldn't have been, like, as special. And, like, seeing my mom, like,

crying, like, that made me more stoked than anything. I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. So, yeah. Or, like, seeing my brother get a good wave, like, that's almost more fun to me than me getting a good wave sometimes, you know, like, I don't know. So, yeah. You are full of a lot of emotion. Yeah, I know. You can see it again. Even grad it when you feel grateful, it comes to the surface for you, too. Yeah, for sure. Your emotions are awesome gift to you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

It's really cool. One thing that you've seen other parents do to kids and you're like, oh my goodness, like, I wish no parent would ever do that again. I think just the negative self-taught, like you don't realize, like I think sometimes parents are trying to push their kid and I don't even think it comes from a bad place, but saying something about, you know, even how you look or what you're doing or like how you act, like that honestly sometimes can really affect, like when you're younger, you're like a sponge. You're just, like, absorbing everything.

And so, like, a lot of qualities you're taught when you're younger. Like, that's how you are going to be when you're older. And I think sometimes, like, being too hard on your kids, like, it's, I think it's a good balance. Like, you want to raise them right and stuff. But I also think, like, the negative self-talk, I think. Too much of that, I don't think it's very good. And I, thankfully, I didn't really have much of it. My brothers were gnarly on me, but, like, not in a super bad way.

Like, I turned out fine, whatever, you know, like, only cried a few times. But, you know, like, um, but. But I think a lot of negative self-talk is, is, that's probably the worst thing, I'd say, yeah. I want to stay on the emotional bit for a moment here because emotions are running the whole thing. And the Olympics, like I said, are for big emotions. So I would love to spend some time to really understand how you work with emotions. And what are the emotions that are most difficult for you? And what are the emotions that are pretty easy for you to work with?

Can we start with the ones that are hard? Yeah, this is a great question. I guess I haven't really thought about, like I guess no one's really asked me that question. And I'm a very emotional person. Like I think I'm very passionate. Like if I'm into something, I'm like 10 toes down about it. What does that mean 10 toes down? Just like all in, you know, like if I'm into surfing like I'm going to try really hard to be the best. Like there's no like, oh, I'm kind of going to get into it. You know, like I'm starting to get into golf. But I'm like now I want to play every single day, you know, like I want to be the best at it. Which is a great. quality to have, but sometimes having extreme emotions can be a little tricky to balance. And it's something I've had to work on, and it's something I work on every day, you know. I want to interrupt. I'm sorry. Can you say how you work on them? I think doing things like daily that make me happy, whether that's like, I don't know, getting a coffee with my friend or like having a great conversation, like connecting. And like I said before, like I am such a people person. So like having those connections are really good for me.

And most of like my life, you know, the pillar of surfing and training like that one's super full. But I think for me it's important to like fill that like family and friends cup because that one's like pretty low all year, especially when you're on the road competing and stuff like that. So being around people, I can be completely myself around is something that's really good for me. I don't feel any judgment from. That's a big one. So stuff like that or if it's like whatever, making my favorite food or like riding a fun board. I don't know, little things like that. It sounds kind of cheesy, but it's what helps me.

So you hear two things in there. I hear first is like doing small little things that like are nice. Yeah. Right? Like a fun board or a coffee with a friend. Going shopping. I don't know. Getting my nails done.

Like I love stuff like that. You know, it's fun. I just heard somebody the other day say, is it called retail therapy? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You go shopping for like. I needed every week. It was a very dangerous thing.

Very dangerous. So, all right. So there's those pleasantries that are nice. And then the other thing that I think you're pointing to. is connections with people that you can be fully you. And can you speak to how you build those? And I'm assuming that's important because you know what it's like to not have that. For sure.

Okay. I think it's funny because almost everyone in my friend group, and there's been a couple new people, but almost everyone in my close inner circle. Like there's a lot of people that are like outside the circle and there's only a few that you like really, really let in that you really trust and that have been there for you. they're really good moments and really bad moments and a lot of people that have been in my life have been there since day one and I notice I always gravitate towards people like that like before I was a surfer had any accolades or anything like that and I feel like a lot of safety in

that for some reason I don't I don't know why but I just I feel like when I see someone be there for me when things aren't going great when they're still there for me and still like hey I'm I'm here for you still give me the same amount of love that's those are the people I gravitate towards and I feel like that shows like someone's true character. So yeah. So let's just call that for a placeholder like trust. Like I trust that they are not judgy critiquing. They're not around me because I'm famous and talented or whatever. But they are actually interested in the character of Caroline. So trust for you, is trust given or trust earned? Maybe a bit of both. I think earned a little. I don't know. I haven't even thought about all these things. This is great. I'm

learning about myself. Thank you. You know, it's funny. Your laugh reminds me. I'm not going to move off with the question because I think it's a really, I want to learn how you do it. And there's not a right, a wrong way of any of this. I'm learning while we're talking. This is great. But you know what? Your laugh reminded me. We were in Tokyo in the stands on the beach and we're having a conversation. And we've been hanging out for like, I don't know, 10 days maybe. It was like three, I think we're, the team house was together for three weeks. Probably, yeah, almost a month, probably. Almost a month, yeah.

What a great month. So fun. The vending machines in the house, I mean, are you kidding me? That was so cool. It's my favorite part. Really? Yeah. It was great.

It's like my dream. The Japanese cuisine was. Yeah. But so we're, we're having a good conversation. And we had talked about a lot up those first 10 days, you know, and then you lean over. You go, wait, are you like a psychologist? No idea. I was really, really embarrassed. We were having a conversation before this and I was so embarrassed. I said that. Oh, like, oh my goodness. I stuck with me because it was such a high compliment

because for me, it's like you didn't have this box that you put me in and it was two people really trying to sort out how for you to be your best. For sure. You know, and I was just like, this guy's super cool. Like, what is he here for? This is great. We're getting along. This is great. You must be a manager or something. Like, it was great. I don't know. But we haven't done any physio yet. No, I know. So, yeah.

That's great. I do remember that. That was pretty funny. It was really fun. Yeah. So anyways, let's, but your laugh reminded me of that moment. And so let's go back to the question. Do you, do you give trust or is trust earned?

I think earned and then it's given probably, yeah. But it's funny because. I'm the same way, by the way. Yeah. But I've also like, I think that's also too because I've had. I've given trust and that trust has been broken. So I think now I'm like, you know, maybe earn the trust then given the trust. I don't know.

I am a very like with my friends and stuff like I'm shirt off my back. Like I'm really there for you. So I think sometimes I expect that from other people and not everyone's like that, which is okay. But I think it's taking me a minute to learn that. I'm like, wait, not everyone's, you know, has that type of personality. And that's just kind of how I was raised too. And a lot of it is how you're raised. And so my family is very.

like, you know, if you're in, you're super in, you know, we'll do anything for you kind of thing. Yeah, so that's why you have a tight inner circle, which is important that you have earned the trust of them. For sure. And they've earned it in reverse as well. And I think there's something important just to land on, which is the definition of trust is that I'm going to make something vulnerable that I really value. And that thing that I really value, like my heart or my time or my money, whatever it might

be. It's important to me and I'm going to make it vulnerable by by trusting you with it, by giving it to you. And if somebody is sloppy with it, then they should not be in the inner circle. For sure. Yeah. What do they say like trust takes years to build and seconds to lose or years to earn seconds to lose or something like that? So that stuck with me. I forget someone told me that and I was like, that's so true. Like someone can be your friend for 10 years and something happens and you're like, wait a second, you know, but I'm also aware like nobody's perfect. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I've done a lot of things to piss my friends off

that they're like, we're never going to talk to you again. But there's certain lines you just don't cross, I think. Finding Master is brought to you by Defender. In the conversations I have with world-class performers, there's this theme that keeps coming up again and again. How we choose to move through the world shapes the quality of our lives. That's about mindset, the environments that we seek out,

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You're 23? 23. 23. Are you aware, I mean, you have experienced a full life at 23. It is crazy. You were on the world tour at 15? 15, yeah. 15.

You picked up a surfboard at the age of 11. I don't know, months or a couple years later, you're kind of thrown at age 13. I think you were on the national team at that time. Yeah, it was my first, that was my first, like, pro event. I got a wild card into, like, yeah, the pro event. So I was around, like, all my heroes is pretty funny. And you brought it to them. Right?

Yeah, it was funny looking back. I was so oblivious to the world. Like, I didn't think about anything besides, like, my next wave, my next meal. It was great. I wish I can think like that now. That's why I wanted to ask is like, so you've had a full rich life, big emotions. You've practiced being in very uncomfortable situations, probably more than most people would have in their lifetime.

And because competitions and practices, and when you're right at that emotional edge of like, am I going to fall into a thousand pieces? Is this whole thing going to evaporate? You know, it's kind of what the edge feels like for most people. And you've got to surf well, you've got to put it on edge. to get to the edge of the envelope physically. And I'm talking more emotionally here for a moment. Let's come back to the physical edge and surfing in a moment because it's a beautiful

concept. But are you aware of your blind spots that have caused pain in others or pain in yourself? Yeah. Like this kind of goes back to like the people pleasing thing we talked about, I guess. Another thing too, you're talking about like being uncomfortable. like, I think almost all good things happen outside of your comfort zone, like almost all good thing. You know, like, I was telling you before, I'm like, winning a gold medal is not that comfortable or like, you know, winning, serving a big wave or whatever it is, you know, or climbing a huge mountain. People do crazy stuff that I'm like, I would never do that, you know.

So that's something that's really cool and that's something that has really motivated me to kind of get over my fears and stuff like that. And I'm like, I just know, like, if I don't want, you almost like want your dreams to be scary. And if they're scary, it's like a really good thing. But yeah, I've, I've honestly, I feel like I've learned more about like my blind spots the last couple years. You know, when I took time off, that was before that I never saw a sports psychologist or never. I just didn't really, you know, I didn't even know what that was, really, like, hence my question. Who are you? That's so good.

So I think as much as like that time that I had off was like one of the hardest times emotionally ever. It definitely was to this point of my life. And I know I might go through something else in the future, but up until this moment, that's been the hardest year of my life emotionally and for my career and everything. But looking back, I'm really grateful for it because it really made me learn a lot about myself. Okay, so just for clarity, you are rolling on the world stage. Like, you are one of the top three, five best in the world. Is that fair?

And then you decide you're going to kind of pull the shoot and you're going to pull out of your career. and you took a break. Yeah. Right. And in elite sport, it's considered a dangerous thing to do because elite sport is happening, the progression of sport is happening so fast. And when I heard that you were doing that, I thought, oh boy, watch out. Because she's going to, she's going to go dial in.

She's going to go attack her mental, emotional part of herself, the same way she attacks the technical, physical part of being an elite surfer. And I thought, it's on. like competitors watch out and I know that you probably would not have felt that because it was dark and hard I was just going to say like it's cool that you thought that way because I thought the opposite um in that moment yeah what did you think oh I just was like you know all the questions like am I ever going to come back to how I was before like am I ever going to be able to be at that level again like can I handle it emotionally like more than the physical part I just emotionally I'm like am I going to be able to

handle this like it's just so I just remember the emotions were so extreme like just so like you're on the highest of the highs and then the lowest of the low is when you lose and it just was like so much to handle. And then I'm like trying to figure out who I am as a person. I'm like, well, who am I? Like what, you know, like you just, it's confusing kind kind of. I think COVID had a big part to do with that too, just kind of like everything being on pause and then I just had to sit there and be like, wait a second, what do I, what do I do now? What are you feeling as you say it? It's kind of emotional for me like looking back to how I felt in that when like when I was just in that state of mind, I was so like,

low, you know, and it was pretty sad. But at the same time, it's so beautiful, too, because like, I know where I'm at now. And the best things in my career have happened after I went through the hardest time of my life, which is so beautiful. And it's such, like, a big part of my story. And now I'm almost proud of it. But I think as an athlete, what I've struggled with is being vulnerable sometimes is shown as, like, a weakness. And I think I kind of, like, reframed that thinking, like, being vulnerable is actually really powerful. And a lot of people feel like the things that I felt. And so once I was like open about how I was feeling and, you know, like struggling with motivation and not really enjoying surfing as much and just

mentally not being in a good place, you know. Once I was open about that, I was like, well, so many people can relate to this and like, I'm not alone. And that just made me feel so much better. What did you just do two minutes ago when you were flooded with all those emotions when they're right at the surface? You allowed some emotions to come to the surface. And then did you make a decision like, no, I'm not going to open it up all the way or I'm just going to recognize that they're there and see where they go. Like, what did you just do? Yeah, definitely like, you know, I definitely, I don't really want to cry on the podcast, to be honest. So, yeah, you hold them back. No, I'm, it's okay. I'm fine, you guys. No, I promise. No, but I think, yeah. Was that the guiding

thought? Like, I don't want to cry. No, I think, um, I think just kind of, like peeling it back. But I'll just reframe my thinking of like, oh, it's maybe like, yeah, in the moment it was sad, but now I'm like so proud of it. So it's actually like a happy thought almost. So I think just like, both I think. Yeah, for sure. Happy, sad. Because I think what you just did is probably part of your crown jewel is that you don't stuff it down. You feel a lot. And then it comes up to the surface. And if there's a lot of sadness, like that's hard to work with. And so you said, I'm going to take a break. Okay. So when there's a lot of joy comes to the surface, you're like, oh, this is easy. So I think I just saw one of your crown jewels, which is the

emotions came back up, which was like, it was dark. It was hard. I was sad. I was lonely. And then you're like, yeah, but then I worked through it. So then the other set of emotions came through. So I think that that is probably part of like the demystifying why you're so good at what you do. That's cool. I've never thought of it like that. But I guess. now that you just said that makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, that's really cool. So stay here for just one more kind of turn of the screw. Was it lonely? Was it sad? Was it, what was the main thing that was a fatigue? I think my priorities were a little bit out of whack. Like surfing wasn't my number one priority anymore and I was focused on other things. I think I wasn't around the best

group of people. I wasn't making the best decisions that kind of led into some like depression and just not really enjoying where I was at, which is crazy because I feel like I've always been a very like, I was raised so well, like great childhood, like great family, you know, very positive, no like, you know, talking down me or anything like that. I feel like I've always been a really happy, secure person. And then I kind of found myself pretty insecure and just overthinking everything and worried about what everyone thinks about me. And, you know, it's hard. You grow up in a bikini in front of a camera. And it's a very subjective sport. And I, been doing it since I've been like 12. So like at some point I think all those emotions now looking

back I didn't realize this in the moment but looking back I'm like oh like no wonder you like got burned out like fair enough you know like there's a lot that you kind of went through and and it is sometimes a bit lonely like you know in order to get to the top it's pretty lonely and I think you have to be really good at managing those emotions which is hard for someone that loves people and loves family and loves those deep connections like it's crazy because like I talked to this about like Lakey Peterson's one of my good friends on tour and we laugh about it because like she's like it we there's like this wall that's up like we're really good friends but there's this like wall because like you don't want to get that close but I'm also like dang like I can

relate to you more than like any my other friends because we do the literal exact same thing you know we have the same feelings but we're not really going to talk about that until this is all done with then we kind of laugh about it you know because it's so true um but I don't know it's just it's a yeah a lot to deal with but I feel like I've now have found a really good balance with my emotions. Like I'm a lot more even killed than I used to be, I think. And that also comes with maturity too. I think you just kind of get more used to like, okay, cool. I think this will be my eighth year on tour now. So you kind of just learn how to deal with those emotions and also find what works for you. Like, I think when you're younger, you're kind of

looking at everyone else. Like, what are they doing? And now I'm just like, oh, I'm so secure in my own program. And that's been, that's been really cool. So how much time did you invest in your psychology. A lot. I mean, when I took time off, it was like six months of like intensive therapy. Like all like I didn't touch a surfboard. Like it was all like, okay, who's Caroline? You know? And like I also went home to, because I live in California originally from Florida. But I went back to Florida and like just went back to my roots and just was like with my family and just like just back to how I grew up. And I think that was really, really helpful and really cool. When it comes to living a great life, I think it's something we all

want. I think we want it for our nephews and nieces or kids. I think we want it for our loved ones with one of ourselves to live a great life. And I'm not sure you can have that if you don't have one of these big rocks to put in that container, which is, who am I? What is a compelling future that I want to work toward? And what are the first principles and values that I'm going to navigate this twisted world? For sure. You know, twisting, I should say world. And so that big rock, like, who am I? That's, I mean, once you kind of ring that bell and it's like, that's who, yeah, that, now I understand me and I understand like my, my core. It's crazy. It's a crazy thing. I don't know. It's, it's a funny thing being an athlete because it's almost like a reverse career in a way,

like you start very young and you finish very young, you know, like a lot of people like, I don't know, like if you go to college and it's like a normal, like you're getting your life started almost at like 30. I mean, some people younger and stuff, but you're like more established where like as a surfer like you're starting at like 12 and you're like I don't know if you 30 or that's like 15 years on tour it's so think about those years like you're so vulnerable you're so young you're learning so much about yourself but you're also put on this like stage of like you're supposed to be perfect and have everything figured out so I think like just kind of balancing that has been and you've slid a few things in here which is your connection to your body

in a public setting your sport is critiqued and judged and that's that collapses on the way that you look and the way that you perform so there's a body thing in there like there's a there's an art and a skill and it's being judged by others and you're still don't know your identity you know you're a teenager so how could you yeah so there's a lot and you slipped in there like the loneliness to make it to the top I'm glad you said that yeah it's true it's real like and I I don't know now I almost love it because like I don't think like super hard like super good things like don't come easy right and it's almost like fun like if you like reframe you're thinking about it it's almost like fun like okay cool like this is really hard right now

but I know like it'll be so worth in in the end you know um so I think just reframing that but sometimes you're you know you're in a hotel room you're in a different country like you know you have you're on a different time zone you know your friends can't call your friends you're kind of just like it's raining outside the waves are bad you're just sitting there like well this is kind of hard like you know what I mean and the handful of people that really understand are your competitors totally but you can't really talk to them because like you're trying to beat them I mean you can but it's like kind of weird you know it's like this weird wall that's up like we're actually all are really good friends like I mean I see these girls more than my family

you know like we're on tour so much but I think if you had any of them sit down here they would say like there is like a little bit of a wall that you just you don't go like that deep because you know, you have that competitive build blockup. Finding Master is brought to you by Fatty 15. One of the core questions I often return to is, what does it mean to age well, not just live longer, but with clarity, energy, and the zest to keep doing what I love. That's why I've been invested in consistently taking fatty 15 for a few years now.

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who took the path, less traveled, and brought their wildest ideas to life. Shelby has always been fascinated by those who buck the norm and choose an unconventional path. On wild ideas worth living, you'll hear from those wild ones. Some familiar, some new. Whether they're walking across America or crushing new records or summoning mountains or breaking down barriers, they're all chasing something wild, something that they are passionate about.

And my hope is that tuning in may just inspire you to do the same. to explore your edges, your frontiers. So check out Wild Ideas Worth Living, wherever you listen to your podcast. Can you speak directly to a person who might be feeling really lonely and they are hanging on every one of your words? I can only, I guess, speak from, like, personal experience. For me, it was, like, just being around those people

that, like, really care about you, whether that's, like, friends. For me, I'm so lucky. I have such a great family. great friends and just it's okay to like seek help and get support like you know every like people that really care for you will will be there for you and sometimes like the people that care about you know you better than you know yourself um so I think leaning on those people for me was really helpful like my family in those moments they're like you probably should take some time off and I was already thinking that way but they kind of just helped me make that decision let's do one more

this is great can you speak to the teenager probably a girl that is is struggling with how her body looks or how she feels in her own body. And maybe she's in a public sport, you know, whatever. But it's just as somebody that is overly connected to how they feel in their body and they don't like how it feels. Can you speak to her or him? This is something that I've like constantly had to work on. Like I said, you know, I'm in a bikini a lot of the times.

I grew up in front of a camera as a girl. There's a lot of hormones and things are changing all the time. And whatever, you sometimes look good. like like I can look good today and then tomorrow I'm like gosh I don't feel like I look that great you know like we all know how that feels um and I think then like that's when being around people that make you feel good I think is really important also doing what makes you happy like everyone has such a different body type and everyone like they're healthy looks so different you know and I think just knowing that and accepting that is really cool and just being proud of that like

you know being strong is beautiful and it's allowing me to like surf and do the things that I love much, you know. And so, yeah, I just think genetically everyone, everyone's made it look so different. That's what's so cool about the world. Like if everyone looked the same, it would be boring, you know, so I think just understanding that is really, really cool. But it is something that I'm constantly working on it. And I think a lot of girls can probably relate to that. I have a first principle in life that everything you need, Caroline, is already inside of you. And so my partnership with that or my part in that with you is to go back to your answers are already inside of you. of you. So you don't need anybody else to feel completely at home with yourself, wherever

you are, on a 15-foot wave of consequence or an intimate conversation or walking and feeling vulnerable because there's a camera or people looking at you. Like, it's already in you. So I would go back to that first principle and like, okay, is it working? And you go, no, that's why we're talking. I say, okay, well, what would you want to change? And you say, well, I want to lose weight or I want to gain muscle or I just want not care. Great. Now we've got a plan. Totally. Right? It's a thinking thing. It's a feeling thing. And then we would practice, you know, kind of radical honesty and compassion in the way that you speak to yourself. Yeah. Which I think is actually quite rare for most of us. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also even more rare for elite athletes. Are you more critical or are you more

of a great coach to yourself? Do you back yourself or you cut yourself? A little bit of bold. And I mean cutting like that. I mean, like, cut yourself down. A little bit of both. I think being critical is good and to an extent. Like, you know, I think. What does that sound like when you're critical? I think just like on a wave or something, I'm like, God, do not do that turn.

Like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like, and that's just me like wanting to get better and just like, you know what I mean? So I think that's. You don't say I'm so stupid. I'm so that. Um, you know, I've said that. Well, honestly, I'm pretty like sarcat.

Like, I'm kind of like that a little bit. But I guess it is coming out of my mouth. So maybe I should breathe it. We might need to talk. No. No. Do you talk to yourself in third person or first person? A little bit of both.

Like I'm a little bit like I will say I do feel like I do feel like I have a pretty healthy balance of like not talking down on myself, but also like being critical to where like, okay, like not being super satisfied. Like I want to I want more and like I want to keep getting better. You know, I think that's really important too and really healthy. Yeah. So you believe that you can do more. You believe there's more, there's, you can put it more on the edge.

Totally. You can trust yourself on the bottom turn a little bit more. You can hold a line that's hard to hold a little bit longer. So you believe there's more in you. Absolutely. Do you think there's more in you? Do you know there's more in you? Or do you believe?

I believe because I, and I've also like, I've seen it with other athletes too. Like I look at like my peers like a Stephanie Gilmore or even a Chris more. And I'm like, you know, explain to the listener who might not know them. Stephanie Gilmore is the, she's the goat, greatest female server all time, has eight world titles, incredible, also just such a great human. And Carissa Moore is also one of the goats, five world titles, first Olympic gold medalists, which is really cool. Your teammate competitor, yeah, exactly. You know, I look at them and I'm like, Stephanie Gilmore, she won the world title when she was like, she didn't win the world title for a few years. And then she got the eighth world title.

She was in her 30s. And I look at that, I'm like, I'm 23. Like, I can have the best year. ahead of me. And now with all like the science that's out with like how you can, you know, the training and like the nutrition, like you can stay healthy for so much longer, which is really cool. Do you think you're going to be the goat? No, I don't know. We'll see. Oh, you do. I don't know. I saw it in your eye. I saw it. You don't want to say it. No, I like it. No, I like that. Yes. I'm definitely, look, I, I don't know. No, I think what's definitely. I think you, no, I saw it in. This is what I'm saying. When we're in Tokyo and the way you handled the complexity of those emotions. Your technical, your style of surfing is world leading. It's not just world class.

You are pushing. And so is Carissa. For sure. Right. And take nothing away from Lakey and like she's a really powerful surfer as well. But, but the way that you are managing your internal life in an honest way is the, is the largest pillar to get, you know, the foundation right. And you're, you're well on your path. Thank you. Yeah. And I don't think you're just going to take casually your physical fitness and your technical fitness. And like I don't think that you're going to take any of that stuff casually. The thing for you will be to make sure that you manage your energy properly so you don't lose the love affair with with progression, with growth. Totally. And I think that's the in at women's sports in general, which is like so cool. Like the progression in all women's sports

is just skyrocketing, which is like so cool to see. But especially I think in surfing, the talent level is just like, it's going like this. Like, it's such a fast pace. So I think keeping up with that is, it's definitely a really fun challenge, you know. And also, like, I think with having now the world title and the gold medal, like, you have to find different ways to be motivated and stuff like that. So I think these younger girls coming up are something that's been really motivating for me. And even though they're, I guess, only a few years younger than me, it's still like, I'm like,

I don't, you know, you still want to, you have that fire in you. They fire you up, which is pretty cool. Competition's amazing. It is. It's great. Yeah, it really does keep us on our toes, on our edges, if you will. So wait, I distracted us because I was asking about the goat, but how do you, you believe there's more in you, so it gives you some sort of more space to be able to be critical.

I'm not a fan of critical self-talk because it starts to niche away or chip away at like the belief. So if you think about like you've got this crown jewel and each time you say, say something to yourself, like, I suck. I'm stupid. I'm this. It's just you take a tiny little bit off. I don't know if that's what you're doing or not. It feels like you're also replenishing that, but by the way that you back yourself. So how do you back yourself? How does it sound in your head when you are coaching yourself in an amazing way? Well, I think for me, just doing the things that like, whether that's like training really hard or putting the hours in the water,

like doing things like a lot of practice, like I feel like that like leads to confidence. Like just knowing. What do you say to yourself? Just saying like, hey, I did everything I can to prepare for this heat right now. This event right now like me, Caroline, like I put everything I can into being my best. And that's just like how can you not be more confident when you feel that way? But if you, you know, if you're doing things that maybe aren't, you know, aren't making you the best version of yourself, like that could cause some like doubt and insecurity and stuff like that. So I think, and that's like the only thing. There's not many things you can control in life and in the world. And I think that's something you can control is like how hard you work.

And I think knowing that and like doing that breeds confidence for me at least. Did you train at that kind of 10 out of 10 level going into the, into both games? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I think the second one I was a little bit more prepared just because the first one, I didn't know what to expect. Everything was new. Surfing was also never in the Olympics.

So like, you know, I had no idea. Like everything just felt like I know. I feel like I was going in blindfolded. I was like, what do I have to expect here? And not that I didn't watch the Olympics before, but I was so fixated on surfing that, you know, it wasn't in it. so I didn't really pay too much attention to the Summer Olympics. And now I'm like the biggest fan ever.

I think it's the coolest thing ever. But the second time I was a bit more prepared, I'd say, and just mentally stronger, you know, like just for everything I've gone through and just being more emotionally tapped in with myself. What was it like for you to wear the USA jersey and to represent the flag and the people of the country? Oh, it's incredible. It's kind of hard to articulate the world. words to like for that feeling with anything in the Olympics like it's so like I remember when I first qualified for the team my parents are like you don't realize like how big of a deal this is

and I didn't at all until I went and then I was like wow this is like such a powerful like honorable feeling like you just are like I'm representing my country like this is the coolest thing ever and surfing at such a small pool like it's it's not like a huge team so it's like kind of very on you it's incredible it's coolest thing ever can you take us to the So you took fourth in Tokyo, which is, as you've established, and I 100% agree, it's the hardest position in the Olympics. You win third, you win gold, you lose gold and get a second, though. When you lose gold, you get a second. When you lose the third, fourth match, you get nothing.

You get the experience, which is meaningful in a lot of ways, but you don't get the kind of that hardware, if you will. So when you were in Tahiti for the last Olympics, going into that match or into that heat where you either go home with nothing or you advance to the metal round, do you remember that heat? Yeah. Like it's, I love that you bring this up because that was like when people asked me, like, what was like the most like emotional heat for you? Like that heat was more emotional for me than the gold medal because like I remember what

it felt like to lose. and it was, like, not a good feeling at all. And I remember, like, when I was, I was in this heat with Joanne DeFay, and, like, if I, you know, if I made it, I was in the gold medal match, I did it. And I remember I, like, needed a seven, and I got a seven, like, exactly the score, which is, like, really rare in surfing. And I won, like, on the highest countback, like, my top score was higher than her. We were tied, but my highest score was higher than her.

So it was, like, as close as it gets, it was really slow that day, the waves. So that, you know, sometimes it's pretty nerve-wracking when you're going into it, a heat and the waves are very slow, you know, because you've got to be very selective and very smart. And you kind of have to have some luck on your side, too. And I remember I just like started crying, like I was just crying because I was just like, oh my gosh, like I'm getting, no matter what, like I'm, you know, I'm not getting forth. I'm on the podium. Yeah, I'm on the podium. You know what I mean? Like, and then after that, um, we had like six lay days and until the final day, but I remember that was like a huge, huge moment for me, super emotional moment for me.

I'm more interested in what it was like on the boat or the beach. It's a boat in Tahiti, but pre-surf. How did you manage your pre-surf mindset and emotions going into a thing that the last time you were in that situation was traumatic for you? I feel like I was pretty like when I was there. I felt like I had great equipment. Like I was around, we had a great team again. And like you said in Tokyo, like it was cool. Even though it was a bummer, it was COVID. Like it was cool in a way because we were all like kind of forced to be together. And Tahiti was like kind of like that too. because you're on an island. So, like, we had our family staying and stuff,

but, like, most of the time, we were all together. So I think just, you know, we had John John and Griffin call Pinto was on the team. He's, like, a good friend of mine. And then Carissa, again, which was really cool. Katie Simmers is also a good friend of mine. Like, we just had a great, like, great team. We were all pushing each other in a very healthy way, like going against each other, but also, like, pushing each other, which was really cool.

And I felt pretty present. Like, surprisingly, I felt pretty present and just very, like, grateful to be there. I wouldn't say as fearful, you know. I think I was just kind of like whatever happens happens, you know, but I do know I was like putting in in the work like leading up to all those like free service and stuff, which again kind of gave me a lot of confidence. So you've given three kind of variables there. As you were facing down a moment that the last time you faced it, you came on the short

side of the outcome that you wanted, but you gained a lot of experience. Call it small T trauma, right? Is that fair to say? Yes, for sure. Okay. Yeah. And then so in that, when you're repeating a similar type scenario, you go to gratitude, you go to acknowledging the work that you put in it. And what was the third thing that you said? I had it in my head. Yeah, just being around good. I think I said like good equipment, but also like being around good people and surfing. I don't know. I felt like I was in a good rhythm with surfing. Oh, you said present. Yeah, being present. Okay. So that that's kind of your, let's call it, I don't know, equation. If I'm present and if I'm grateful, if I'm around good people. and I'm backing myself that I put in the work. Yeah. And then there was this thing of trust.

Like, whatever happens, like, I've done my very best. Totally. Is that right? Yeah. So there's a bit of your formula for success under pressure. Yeah. And like sometimes it changes. I don't know.

Like sometimes I've also gone into competing and like not feeling that great and like kind of doubting myself and it works out too. Like that's the crazy thing about like competing. And that's sometimes where your talent kind of kind of overtake your emotion. sometimes. By the way, that's what most people do. Yeah. They over index on physical and technical and under index on mental and their physical technical just kind of show up in a way that is not as good as they could be, but it's good enough for that moment. Yeah. But it doesn't, it's like an empty meal. It doesn't feel great. It's like relief. Yeah. As opposed to like, I really brought

my stuff. Totally. Yeah. But okay, two more questions here. How do you train gratitude and how do you train being present? Being present, that's something I've had to really work on, for sure. I think that's, it's hard because, like, we're always looking forward to a date. Like, I'm always like, okay, like, I'm here right now, but, like, in two weeks, I got this event and I'm booking this flight and, like, you know, you're just constantly looking ahead. And I think athletes are very future oriented, which is great, but also, like, I think it is important to be present. I think that's where having a very healthy mindset, like not having, for me, like I was telling you before, but, like, a a lot of times when I talk to a psych like a therapist it's like not much about surfing it's all

about like my personal life and I feel like for me when my personal life is in check surfing a lot of things flow like it just everything feels so much easier like it's never easy but it feels a lot easier so I think for me when when I'm good up here and like I'm just happy with everything and not everything's going to be perfect you know but that's when I feel the most present for sure yeah me too yeah I think a lot of people can probably relate to that Yeah. I appreciate the simplicity and how you're saying it. Yeah, it's, I mean, you know, I'm definitely not, like, I have so much to work on. Like, I'm, but I'm figuring it out. Me too. Yeah. Both of us. But I kind of am starting to understand some things, which has been really fun. And then gratitude, I think just like being all around the world and like seeing different parts of the world has, I'm like, wow, like we're really lucky to live lives we do. And I think just being raised the right way too. how my, my, the outlook of life that my family's kind of taught me has been, has been really good and positive. So yeah, those two things. I think reference points, having really interesting,

compelling, just reference points in life is part of a high performance approach. So as many reference points as you can gather, whether it's, you know, in sport or outside of sport, they become almost these guideposts about like, oh, wait, I've seen or smelt or I've experienced something close to that or like, well, listen, this is really hard, but it's not like what I saw over there. Reference points is a really important part of living a great life. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So thank you for letting me understand kind of how your psychology works for you to navigate this confusing world. And it's not lost on me the investment you've made in your inner life to be able to change kind the way that other people see what's possible. You are a beacon for so many. And so thank you for the friendship over the years and thank you for being an inspiration to so many. And this has been awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. It's been super fun. Love it. Wait, before we go, can you give us a little treat? Can you share the medal with us? Of course. Yeah.

show and tell yeah awesome I like I almost like the back of it better because it's like it's like Paris on it which is cool but yeah yeah look at that

can hold it look at that cool I like this part and in the middle of it's that's the Eiffel Tower as you know yeah just really cool this was the the only games that they pair snuck in their icon on the back which so it's

But the front is always different and the back is always the same. And this back, for all the games, the back is the same. Except for this one, they snuck in the Eiffel Tower. Wow. Yeah, which is really cool. And then this is a piece of the Eiffel Tower. Yeah. The Eiffel, it's so, was so cool to see.

Like, it light up every like 30 minutes it lit up or something, had the rings on it. It's the coolest thing ever. Caroline, thank you so much for spending time with this today. Thanks for having me. All right. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're going back to the vault with Dr. Robert Waldinger, psychiatrist, Zen teacher and director of the longest study on human happiness ever conducted at Harvard. In this conversation, Dr. Waldinger and Dr. Jervais explored what truly makes life meaningful

and revealed a single factor proven to increase happiness, health and even longevity. Quick hint, it's not diet and it's not exercise. Join us Wednesday, November 26th at 9 a.m. Pacific, only on Finding Math. history.