Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - One Yard from Everything: Flow, Pressure, and the Play that Changed Football

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

The Super Bowl isn’t just a physical game — it’s a psychological one.In this special Game Inside the Games episode, Dr. Michael Gervais is joined by NFL coach Matt Patricia and former All-Pro Brandon Marshall to unpack one of the most defining moments in Super Bowl history: Malcolm Butler’s game-winning interception.This episode explores what it looks like to perform under pressure when the whole world is watching. Subscribe and follow along all week as The Game Inside the Games delivers daily episodes leading up to the Super Bowl — revealing the mindset behind elite performance._________________This episode is powered by:  Microsoft Copilot, InsightInsight is redefining integration for the Agentic Era by closing the 65% execution gap currently leaving enterprise AI at a standstill. As a leading Solutions Integrator and top 1% Microsoft partner, we don’t just provision licenses; we build the high-performance infrastructure and secure data estates AI requires to thrive. By converging AI-optimized networking with our proprietary Radius™ Microsoft 365 Copilot framework, we solve the infrastructure-AI paradox. From silicon to skills, Insight leverages "Customer Zero" expertise to transform software into a high-yield autonomous enterprise—enabling seamless, secure collaboration between your people and your AI.From Hype to How_________________Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Super Bowl becomes everything. There is so much noise. You have three hours to tell everybody what you know about this game. The game is everywhere. Welcome back to the game inside the games, brought to you by Microsoft Copilot. And what an honor. What an honor to sit with two legends. Coach, welcome to the podcast.

So speaking of winning, I've got one nice little ring that I'm wearing, but how many, you're not wearing any of your race. No, they're locked. How many, how many Super Bowls have you participated in? And how many of you won? I've been to six of one three. Oh, my goodness. We have good ones and we have ones that we don't talk about.

You know, there's got to be some time that goes by it. No, I mean, what an unbelievable week, you know, Super Bowl week. It's obviously the pinnacle of our sport and, you know, celebrate it. It's just so much fun, you know, great to be a part of. Interesting to see this side of it. You know, we're usually behind the house, you know, trying to prepare, get ready to go. and kind of in your own little tunnel. So great to see, you know, the pageantry and the involvement with the fans and the media and all that stuff.

It's really, really cool. I wanted to wait to the end of the episode to bring this up, but this is a great transition right here. Really quickly, can you guys walk me through Super Bowl 49 and for everybody out there watching? It's one of the most controversial moments in the NFL, right? Like Pete Carroll, coach Mike, right? Like Russell Wilson, Bobby Wagner, right? right we're talking about this team could be a dynasty and it comes down to one of the last play one of the last plays the last play yeah right so i'm the team for bringing this up right yeah i love that you're enjoying this

yeah yeah no i like that's a good one thank you so i appreciate that explain to the people right because shall we give it to marshal and lint and rumba we call the past when you were the guy on the other side that called the play for malcolm butler who is sitting right here actually we're going get him on the show as well later to talk about this but you guys go yeah well it was a defensive call it was called goal line three corner and it was a play that we knew you know

Seattle like to run they like to run it in those situations wait coach coach how did you know that we like to run it because we didn't show that play yeah well there's a lot of film study that goes involved with that play and that you run that play a bunch and there was some checks in that play that they would go to

based on what the defense was doing, you know, so that kind of one under two route to the one side, and then what we used to call Snag 7 Flat, you know, kind of that West Coast philosophy was on the other side of that formation. So you had Brendan Browner and Malcolm Butler lined up against two of our receivers. We did. We did, yeah. And walk us through it. Yeah. Actually, let's go back and stuff.

Yeah. Okay. So. There's a lot to this game. There's a lot here. There's definitely a lot to this game. Yeah, I was going to pick it up that we had like two or three wild offensive plays. Yeah.

Jermaine cursed, caught a, what was it, like a 40-yard bomb on his back. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Like, bobble, bobble, bobble. He's on his back and he catches a ball. And then you could feel the momentum. Yeah, it shifted.

Yeah, you could feel all of it. So it was definitely a situation where... Was that a broken play? As far as him catching it? Yeah. From you guys. No, I mean, honestly, we were right there in coverage. Malcolm actually made a good play.

Duran Harmon is coming over. They had just changed the rule that year. So we were real cautious about hitting those guys, you know? so Duran actually winds up jumping over him, and then the ball lands, and then he catches it. The hard part about that play was, you know, I'm sitting there, it's cross-field, so it's diagonally to my left, and I'm like, looking.

I'm like, oh, my God, he just caught it. And I'm having complete flashbacks. Super Bowl, 07, same stadium. David Tyree, who I coached at Syracuse University, catches one off his head, and I'm like, did this just happen again? I hate this building. This is, like, the worst stadium to play a Super Bowl and ever, right?

So I'm having all of that. I'm reliving that moment from 07. He just caught it. They're down inside the low red. But the most amazing play that happened in that series is the next play where they actually handed off the Lynch. And Dante Hightower, he makes a one-armed, one-shoulder tackle because he had, his shoulder was separated.

I was watching at that moment on the sidelines. And I'm watching, everyone knew the ball was going to Marchion on that play too, because he was steaming. He was rolling. And I saw it and I was like, oh, she. Oh, okay. All right. All right. Regroup. Because he made a great play. It's always the play that sets up the play.

You know, and that's, you know, you talk about mental toughness. You talk about preparation. You talk about transitioning and staying in the moment, you know, and going from one play to the next. So that was a huge play for us. Dante Hightower, like he saved that game on that play. So, you know, the clock is running. One yard line. Yeah, Seattle's subbing.

Obviously high drama, right? Super Bowl. So, you know, no problem. 26 seconds to go. So the clock is moving. So I know what I'm going to call. We had put the defense in. It was goal line three corner.

I hadn't run this defense. I mean, probably 10 years. It probably was longer. And you know what the crazy thing about this defense is, you know, every training camp, Bill would come to you. He was like, hey, did we put goal line three corner in yet? And I'd be like, yeah, now we didn't put that in yet, Bill. We didn't put that in yet because I was like, I'm never going to call this. Like, when am I going to call this?

This was a matchup versus what we call 11 personnel. Yep. So one tight end, one back three wide receivers, a little bit of a lighter group, but it was a heavy, you know, run-stopping front for us. And I'm like, we'll just blitz in those situations, whatever the case may be. I'm like, so we never, never, never put it in. Man, we win the AFC championship game, and I'm like, we have to play Seattle. And I remember walking into the defensive staff room, you know, Monday.

And I just looked at the staff and I go, you guys aren't going to believe this. They're like, well, I'm like, we're putting in goal line three corners. They're like, where are you trying? They're like, we run that play. Yeah, they're like, they have no idea. I have no idea. 12 years. I'm like, listen, it's going in. We got to get it in for goal line. We've got to make sure we rep it. I've got to see it. I got to change it. And it was a process over two weeks just to get

that thing up and running again. Coach, how much of that had to do with Brendan Browner, who was a defensive back on our team? Yeah. And then came over to play with you guys. So Browner's big influence was actually right before halftime. I love Browner. Like he changed our season for us. You know, early in the year, you know you always had those moments where, like, something's going to spark this and something's going to get it going. Browner had one of those moments. I mean, you want to talk tough. This dude is tough. And we love, you know, I love tough guys.

That's why I needed you because I need tough guys. Was Dorel Revis on that team? Yeah, yep. Are you talking about the kid? And I talk about it. Nope. Nope. Wait a minute now.

Wait a minute now. Change everything. So. At the moment. Nope. Nope. We talked about it. So a half time.

At half time, we had given up a touchdown right before the half. Are you back on our game? You got to stay here holding a coach. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I'm not like that. I'm not like that. So we give up a touchdown right before half.

I'm steaming because. And that was Coach Carroll. Yeah. Bev and Carol put a real risk on a play. It was like a corner route or something. You know what? It was a fade stop. It was a fade.

Because we were carrying the fades to the back pylon. And who does that? going like that was that was like no it's great by Russell they had it because look once you get those situational clock plays right there's a whole chest match that's going on 11 seconds how far out am I at the 16

yard line I can throw it 10 yards I can throw it to the front pylon I can throw it to the back pylon I've got seven seconds I'm on the five yard line how fast does the ball have to come out because you're trying to maximize how many plays and certainly you've got to have the field goal so you've got to save the time for the kick and so they you know

they called the play and I was like I was going to be a shot the end zone and I think is like just hey undercut the goal line don't don't drift because it's got to go to the front pylon they don't have enough time to throw at the extra 10 yards to the back of the end zone and we drifted and he he faded and came back hit the touch so I am touchdown I'm angry yeah I'm walking off into half time I am walking off hat time I'm Bill I am like yelling at Bill Bill Belichick well we're having a discussion you guys remember listen I'm I'm Italian, so a lot of people are like, why are you yelling?

I'm like, this is a conversation. I don't really understand. Like, there's no yelling. This is just no, that's how we talk. Northern Italy or Southern Italy? I am Southern Italy. Nice. Yeah, Sicilian.

Okay. Yeah. All right. We're Naples. Naples. Okay, there you go. And I visit it both. Beautiful country.

Beautiful country. One of my favorites. Yeah, so I'm like, just mad. I wasn't yelling at him. I was just mad. And, you know, Browner's like, listen, he's like, what do you think about switching the matchups? And I'm like, what do you think? He's like, put me here.

let's go there and I'm like yeah and I'm putting Malcolm because Malcolm didn't play so I half time that's when I went into the halftime and I said Malcolm you're in all the packages I'm like this is your matchup this is what you're doing browner's going here you know Revis is going here we're going to help here this is what we're doing I just changed all the coverages at halftime so we come out the play that you're talking about where juggles caught so Malcolm actually during the second half made some really good plays on third down we were able to kind of get Seattle off track a little bit yeah yeah we actually the series before that we had a call stackbacker left where it's third and two it's going the other way

and third and two on like the three yard line whatever it was and they hand the ball off to marshawn and hyes coming off the edge and rob ninkovitch crashes down and tackles marchon short of the first down they kicked the field goal that's right so that was the offset and the score because the score was like going back and four yep so that was the offset where then you know we scored and then we were up or whatever it was and then so going down we knew that's why they had to score the touchdown that's right So then going back to the play, Hightower makes an unbelievable play after the crazy catch, where I'm like, I'm having flashbacks, 07.

And then they put 11 personnel out there, and I was like... And explain to the casual, the 11 personnel is... So offensively, we're always tracking... defensively, we're always checking the offensive personnel. So how many skilled players are out on the field? You know, offensive guys, you know, you guys are smart, right? So there's always five offensive linemen, one quarterback. So we know the five other guys on the field is going to be some combination.

11 personnel. We're trying to track it out. 11, 12, 21. We, you know, basic way that we would do it, we always start running back, tight end, and then you assume what the wide receiver count is, right? It's got to equal five. It's 11.

It's one running back, one tight end. And three wide receivers. Three ride. So usually a passing type of personnel group or spread you out type of personnel group. So as soon as they put it out there, I knew I was like, okay, goal line three corners coming. But my biggest thing there was.

Because we had three receivers out. Yeah. So that was the three-corner matchup. But everything else on the field was goal line. Yeah. Big bodies. Oh, you brought out the big boys. I had all the big boys.

Like, 350 pounds were coming in. Oh, we easily had a thousand pounds of flesh on the left-hand side. I was not. Marshawn. I was not letting him run it in. Because I was not going to walk away from that game going March on. Don't forget, I played Marshawn. He played a Buffalo.

Like, I was, I was so, I think I sent flowers to Buffalo when they traded him to Seattle. Because I was like. This guy is going to be so good. He's going to be so good. So I was like, you know, my biggest thing is like, we can't let him beat us. Yeah. Don't let the guy you know is going to beat you, beat you, right? That's the whole mentality defensively.

So, I mean, to that side of the defense, I had, you know, I think it was Branch, it was Will Fork, it was Chandler Jones. I had Jamie, I had high, I had like, there's some pretty good football players to that side where they're going to run it. And on our sideline, we saw that the big boys are out. So what happened was is I go next to Bill because I'm not going to sub this. And I didn't want them to call time out because I didn't want them to figure out what it was. Because I knew once they saw all the big bodies going out there, they would think it was goal line people. The automatic check in that play is to go to the pass, come out of the run, and go to the pass. We knew what the pass was.

I wasn't worried about the one under two. I didn't think they'd throw that. It's the other side I was worried about the Snagg 7 flat. That's that West Coast, you know, a little spot. flat route seven route to the back pylon that's the route that I knew would beat us because we'd get picked so and again for the casual listener that's on that's happening if you're watching from russell's back that's on the left side on the right hand side is the one under the one under which are your two dv yes and our two receivers yes and our two receivers are running this kind of interesting

little rub route yeah a little rub route get in the way create some mess yeah and then it's meant to be almost a walk in yeah it should be picking easy easy easy easy go easy no problem. So we get it out. So I go to Bill. Clock is, you know, here's this crazy. You get those moments there was like 26 seconds left. That felt like 15 minutes to me. Like life just slowed. Everything slowed down. Oh, look at that. You're in the zone and you're like, I know exactly what I'm going to do. And now I'm next to Bill and I'm like, hey, are you calling the time out? Because I knew it was some game management going on. And he's staring across the field and he won't answer me.

And I'm like, hey, like, are you calling the timeout? Because I'm not putting this out. I'm having a whole conversation with him. He's ignoring me. Are you waiting to put the package out? Yeah, because I didn't want them to call time out and figure out what it was. Right. The clock was running down.

Right. And if you don't get the guys out in time, it's a scale. Now I've got a problem. And so, wait, hold on. You're in the zone at this point? You're in flow state? Yeah. Everything's slow down.

This is the game. Yeah. This is the game. Yeah. What's that book? The rise of Superman? Yes. Right?

Flow state. I'm in that. Yeah. Okay. I'm on it. So just for the, again, for the listener of you here, flow state happens. There's a couple triggers. One is when you love the challenge that's in front of you and you believe you have the skills to navigate that challenge. So that's kind of the math.

I love this. Yeah, we're good now. Okay. So now you're in the pocket. And then you need to go into a deep focus, like deeply understand and be with the details of the game. So you were right there. Yeah. Yeah.

What I love about the flow state is everything else in your brain shuts off. Yeah. You know, your brain is just wired to ignore everything that's not important to that moment. Because again, remember, a lot of flow state comes from fight or flight, you know, back in the day and it's survival. That's right. So your brain shuts everything that it does not need off and focuses on the task at hand. What do I need to do? The wildebeest, the warring tribe.

Or how am I going to fight them? That's right. Or how am I going to go to it? Yeah. How am I going to attack this? So every- Like- Most people go too narrow. They want it so bad.

They tighten up and they lose track. And it sounds like you were able to maintain. It was really, it was very calm. It was very, like, just. I hate hearing this. It was, like, whatever was going on in the stadium, I have no idea. Yeah. I don't remember the chaos or whatever was having on the field.

I remember very clearly the conversation I was having with Bill, but it was probably with myself. He was staring at Pete because he was trying to evaluate what's the chaos level of their sideline. Because in this moment, what you're trying to do is who can operate, and execute the best under as much, I mean, you want to talk stress. Yeah. This is a high-speed. High-stress, high-pressure situation.

Yeah, that's right. Who can operate more efficiently in this situation? So he's evaluating their chaos. I'm good. And then eventually at some point he looks, he's like, hey, call it. And I was like, clicked on. I was like, hey, hi, goal line three corners coming in. And I'm like, Flo, make sure Malcolm's in there.

Because that was the one package I didn't, I forgot to go over. I was like, hey, Malcolm's in on everything, which meant goal line three corner, too. So late, B-Flow, you know, he gets him in late, Malcolm goes running out. Brian Florence. Brian Florence. Coach. Yep. So we're, you know, I'm on with high.

I said, hey, listen, I go, we got Goldine three corner. I go look at the depth of the back. I'm like, they're probably going to check to the pass. Watch the snag seven flat to your right. I didn't even worry about the other side. I was talking to high. I had changed on Friday's practice before the Super Bowl. I had changed the alignment of High Tower,

Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones because I was worried about the pick play. Which is important because, you know, usually, you know, once it's in, it's in. Friday, fast Friday. We're not making too many adjustments. Yeah. I don't live by that rule. Oh, really? I don't.

So, you know, I am, there is no hay, there is no barn. Like that used to be the old school saying, right? Hey, the hay's in the barn. No. We don't want to confuse people. There's no hay, there's no barn. There's just work. And when the thing's over is after the three hours of that football game, that's when it's

so I'm going to work all the way through. Now I'm not adding. I'm not trying to like, I'm not trying to confuse. We're going to get this right. I'm not trying to, yeah, I want to be right. Because my biggest thing as a coach is, like, I don't play the game. No one wants me to play the game. Like, that would be really bad.

But I won't sleep. Can you imagine you and me on the goal line? Yeah, we've, listen, I've torn both Achilles. I don't need anymore. I'm good. I just, but my biggest fear in why I would stay up every night during the course of the week was I just need to make sure that I give my players every tool possible to let them have a chance, have a chance to go perform.

their best on the field. Like, that's my job. You know, like, you go play. And I got to do everything I can to make sure that you can play at the highest level. So I was tweaking that alignment because I didn't want those guys to get picked. I didn't want the flat route to come open. And we walked through it over and over. I moved it, walked through it, saw it on practice, fixed it. So now in the game, that's where I'm focused. Now, again, everyone's like, Lynch is going to run the ball. I'm like, well, look, if Lynch runs the ball, then these five bodies that are over here, that way, probably combined like, I don't know, 2,000 pounds. You like your odds there.

They got to stop. But I also knew that the series before, Rob Ninkovich had tackled him on third and two by himself, and they didn't get the first down. So I knew they were going to check the play. So the play's going. I'm over. This is game theory right now. This is the storytelling of game theory.

Yeah. Right. Like all of these chess moves that are happening. It's happening. It's multi-dimensional. Yeah. And you're locked in. What is.

I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. Yeah. And what part of the game is mental for you? And what part is tactical, strategic? You know what?

That's a great question. Because I probably struggle to figure out the difference between, to me, the game is problem solving, which is mental. You know? It is mental. We always talk about our preparation for our players. You've got to be physically and mentally ready to go. But then the third one is you've got to be emotionally ready to go too.

And that's the biggest piece. Yeah. You know, and that's what I've found now more so than ever. You know, back in the day. I'm kind of my fourth generation of NFL player, right? So my old heads, Teddy Bruske, Junior Seale, William McGuiness, Roosevelt, Colvin, like, it was physical and mental.

Like that was, you want to talk alpha dogs. But now there's so much more like emotionally, I think, going on with the kids and the players, they're so much more aware of what's happening. There's so much more outside influence that really affects them. When did that click for you? Yeah, I know exactly the moment too. I'll tell the story.

So I walk through the locker room. and Chandler Jones well I loved the death Chandler was like my son he's on his phone and I was like hey man what what's wrong I can tell

someone's wrong and he's on his phone and he's on his phone and something's wrong and he's just like these people like and I was like why do you care like I you know

that's just not my generation like I you know that's not how I grew up and I was not I'm on social media now but I was not on it you know I didn't know any of that stuff

so I kind of like it didn't make any sense to me and then later he came back and we were talking about it and I was like this really affects you and he's like yeah it bothers me and I'm like I'm like why and he needed to explain it and I didn't understand why but it didn't matter yeah like it didn't matter if I understood it all as I needed to know was like it affects him something is affecting him so what's the difference if it's someone on the phone or if it's he went home and someone from his family wanted too much um he was a rookie so I mean, that had to be either 12.

And you guys had them for how many years? I had Chan, man, whole rookie deal, so maybe 14, 15. Okay, so I want to say that. I mean, obviously the Super Bowl, 14 and 15. And I want to say that because Chandler Jones, one of the best defense events that we saw in this era, in that era, and then also was up for a major contract.

You guys chose not to resign him. He goes to the Las Vegas Raiders, sign a huge deal there. but then also over the last couple years he's been struggling mentally right and so we you know we can't diagnose what's going on but you know

it's been tough these last couple years for the Jones family around his brother yeah yeah and I mean it's so important it's like that's powerful for you to say like I saw something there emotionally yeah and with the guy that you care so much about

that's right like Chandler Jones I love Chandler Jones I do anything for Chandler Jones and he is you know when look we're very close right we're in the locker room with each other all the time we learn about each other we're the family he's the youngest brother of three it's a very competitive family arthur john like that is an unbelievable family and Chandler's one of those guys that just always has this unbelievable personality life like you walked in the room you can't help but smile yeah when Chandler's around that's right you know huge smile huge personality and that's

you know that's his joy so you see when he wasn't like that and that was very eye opening to me to see that. So the reason why this is important for me because I play and now I'm running a company and so I'm on both sides of it and if you don't know where your your players are, your teammates are, right? Like it affects performance. It affects how we show up as athletes. It affects how we show up as husbands and fathers and daughters. It affects us. So we have to understand the signs and symptoms of our players and all these things, right? So we. it's a thin line between impairment and performance. Yeah. Yeah.

Beautifully said. Yeah. It's, and you know what? It's really important, too, to your point, we got to just keep checking in on everybody. Like, just keep checking in on everybody. How do you do that, coach? How do you do that? Text messages, calls, you know.

Guy pops in my head. I'm going to just text them. Is it as simple as how you doing? Yeah. Hey, thinking about you, you, you good? Yeah. And that may be it. And then, you know, just maybe, yeah, good coach.

Like, no problem. Yeah. And you just, you know, that's really important, you know. Okay, back to the drama. Yeah, so. That's my nightmare. Going back to this. All right.

So that side, I'm watching that side. The play is about to happen. Lynch hops over. They motion over. They build the bunch. The ball is snapped. Marshawn shoots to the flat. We make a peel call to Chandler.

I don't see Chandler peel right away. High Tower gets picked. I'm like, oh, my God, they picked them. And then on the headsets, everyone's like, no, they picked him. No, he picked it. I'm like, who picked what? Like, I didn't even see the play. Yeah.

Because I'm watching, I'm watching the other side of it. So I didn't even look. And everyone's like, he picked it. And I'm like, who picked it? So what happened was Browner sees Malcolm come out. Yep. And Browner goes, he looks at Malcolm, he goes, I'm going to choke. I'm going choke the S out of him.

You just go. And so you watch the play. Browner's like, he's so long. Yeah. And Malcolm just, boom, hits it. knew it was coming. Knew it was coming. Preparation.

Preparation. We had run that play like six times in practice. Now, the funny thing is, a bunch of different guys saw it because I wasn't sure how they were going to do it, but we had run it a bunch of different times. That is brilliant. But Browner, he knew. Wow.

And he reminded him. You know, that's all he needed. A little reminder. That is great partnership, great teammate. And there's so much here. I know, Mike, and we can go so many places, but really quickly, I need you to respond to this, right? Because your greatest moment,

And one of the Patriots' greatest moments was one of Seattle Seahawks. Yeah. Biggest failures. Yeah. You know, from a sports from a worldly perspective, right? Yeah. How did y'all deal with that? So I've been in sport my whole life as well.

And it's been picked. And I look down, I look down at Coach Carroll. And he was watching. He was on, like, you know that coach stance where you're kind of on standing, but holding your knees a little bit like that. and like, you know, like there's an intensity. And I look over at him. He's about eight people away from me.

And his head drops. One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi. And I see his head come back up. And I go, oh, he just processed the whole thing. I was like, wow. So I was like, holy moly. So that to me was a pivotal moment. And then we go into the locker room.

I've never felt the intensity of emotion in a locker room that I felt in that locker room. Yeah. There was 6.6 crying. There was 6.4. I'm ready to rip somebody's head off. There was 6.3 that was kind of laughing. There was, I'm just doing the height. There's one of the owners that was in full tears.

Like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. Like, there was all of the emotion except for joy. There was nobody with joy. So all of the most difficult emotions, loss, grief, bitterness, anger, frustration, intolerance, all of it was present with the most alpha competitive humans on the planet. So we won one in dramatic and lost one in dramatic fashion. I am so thankful. Now, this might sound like I'm glazing over something.

I'm really grateful that I got to experience both. Yeah. And to understand what needs to take. take place to lead to a place to be free to win or lose. We played freely. Yeah. But we did not prepare our men to lose. We prepared them to win.

Yeah. And we didn't know how to lose. And so it took, I think, three years. Oh, yeah. For a healing process to take place. Sure. And I think our best team was actually the next year. I think we're really good in 15.

Skill-wise. Yeah. But there were still that grieving. Yeah. that grieving process, the anger, the resentment, the confusion. It was a trauma. And I say that word with all respect for what big trauma is, but this was so triggering and traumatic for some that it took us about three years as a team to heal. That's right.

And so I am grateful for both. I mean, I've won three and I've lost three. So you know both sides to this too. And I big time. You know, and I know. Would you trade it for winning six? Oh yeah, you always want to win six. Yeah, but so I...

Here's why. Because if I had won after 07, I probably would be like, what do you do after that, right? 19 and 0? I think you just get a big belt. Right, right, right. And you walk around and you're done. You're done. But I'm really grateful I got both.

Yeah. Like, I feel like I'd be muted if I only got one. O'nful. Only the loss or only the win? That's strong. I don't know if I have that strength yet. Yeah, good. I'm going to try to get that strength.

Okay, good. Yeah. So the 07 one, you know, you get to the Super Bowl. You get all this cool stuff. This is your first Super Bowl. No, 04 is my Super Bowl. Okay, this is your second. So we went in 04.

We go back 07. This is the undefeated year. Okay. I mean, honestly, like, and I've watched a lot of football. Like, it's the best football team I've ever seen. Like, we had this amazing, amazing team. Now, the Giants were the best team at the end of the year, no doubt. You know, we always say from Thanksgiving on, whoever the best team is going to win,

and New York was that. Yeah. But at the midpoint of that season, the things that our team was doing, it was crazy, it was ridiculous. It was really literally like a video game. But. Group flow is that. the technical term when everyone's highly skilled and they're operating almost like a swarm of birds or you know how birds will just kind of transform and move together everybody's insane

group flow yeah and when you can get the high skill with group flow it's like it's a different level we changed our mindset that game that that that year and that's i think why we you know there's a couple factors why we lost but you know to your point it took me shoot it might have taken me eight years before i went and finally opened up the bin that had all of my memory of bilia from that season from 07 yeah like i just found a jersey from 07 that my linebacker group gave me you know we called herself the backerhood and it's you know super bowl jersey it's got oh 7 on it and it's signed so like junior signed it teddy signed like all my old heads it's signed but that had been in my garage yeah in a box because that pain of losing that game was real yes

then we go to 11 is there still healing for that for you to do you know what i think i'm okay my my biggest thing with that game that i hate about that game is I wanted to win that Super Bowl for Junior Seowl so bad. He was one of the best people, best players, best everything I've ever been around. I've spent so much time with Junior one-on-one, just, you know, he was out there by himself. I was young. And in that, after that game, like his, and again, we're at the post-game party and his smile. He's, he is light.

Buddy, buddy, right? So he is lit up. Did you get to know, junior? Yes, in passing. And it's for the audience out there that may not know. the junior seyao's story a hall of famer when the best to ever do it not as a player but as a human being but he also um i would say he's a victim of suicide that's right yeah he made the final choice yeah he's no longer with us there's some struggle struggle sorry let's get back to that

but i just want to make sure you know everybody's watching they understand and and that's why i said there's Pack for two losses. Yes. Yeah, two losses for you. So, yeah, May 2nd, yep, junior. And we, you know, and there's a group, we always kind of text each other, you know, check in. On May 2nd. On May 2nd.

Yeah. But that was the 07, 11 Super Bowl, we lose to the Giants again. And I remember that one, I was like, I'm going to stay out here and I want to feel all this pain. Yeah. And I, you know, we had lost in dramatic fashion again. Yeah. And I stood out there, and the confetti came down. And Alicia Keys said.

New York, and, you know, I remember the moment. I sat there and I'm like, I will do anything. We got to get back. We got to get back. We got to win. Like, I need these guys to feel what it's like to win. Like, we had 1 in 04 and we had lost twice. And I was like, we got it.

These young guys, Vince needs to go win again. These young guys were bringing in. We got to go win. And it just, that was a trigger for me to like, you know, the intensity went up. My intensity went way up. You know, probably a lot of guys were, you know, it was like, man, coaches. Angry. I'm like, I'm not angry, but this is a special group when we can do something special.

Yeah. And we pushed from, you know, 12, we went back. You know, we went to like eight straight AFC championship games, right? So 12, we push back, we lose. 13, we lose the AFC championship game. 14, we go and we win. And I remember Jamie Collins on the plane on the way home, he was a young player. High Tower was a young player.

And I was, you know, we're all excited. I'm checking on everybody. And he's like, he just looked at me. He's like, I got you coach. Like it clicked. Why the intensity, you know, was so important. The focus had to be so high to actually win that last game. We want to get in 16.

We lose in 17, you know. And that was the one that I probably, I was really upset about. That one really bothered me because I knew I was leaving. You know, I was going to be going to Detroit. To become a head coach. And I was, you know, and that's where I didn't do a good enough job of going to Detroit and transitioning. you know like I should have left all of that needed to stay in New England and I carried that intensity into a building that wasn't and you know what I never realized it I didn't realize it

until I watched the Jordan documentary right the nine episodes yeah and he says it and it was like three o'clock in the morning I'm like you know summertime so I got to watch all my movies in like four days because that's the only time I'm home so I'm grind I'm watching this and he said about losing and his intensity to go back and win and how he's how he told every and just set the tone for that. And I was like, I didn't, and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I was like, I didn't leave that. It was mismatched.

It was. It was. It was so wrong. I was so wrong in doing that and bringing that into a building and bringing that to players in a building that didn't understand why I was, because all I wanted to do was go back and win. I just wanted to go back and win because of that loss. It was the why behind it, though?

Why did I want to win or why? No, like, why was that a mistake? Because it wasn't fair to those guys. They were, look, they were going through a transition of a new coach, a new system, a new everything. And, you know, I got to go in there and, like, I got to just learn the guys. You know, I got to spend time and try to get them to understand me. So what I hear is my neuroticism, your neuroticism from losing. Yeah.

And the baggage you had around that, you carried that in a debilitating way to culture and relationship. To start, yeah. To start, right? And so, so good. And it hit, but it didn't hit me, it didn't hit me soon enough until, you know, later. Right. And then I was like, damn, you know, you can't. I didn't quite feel the foundation the way that I needed to.

And prioritize what I should have prioritized, which was the players. Yeah. Like, that's what should have been funny. Do you understand the beauty in this, though? Tell me. There's a lot of people out there in sport and business that need to hear this story. Yeah. Because there's, in sports.

sport, right? The next coaches or players going into a new environment. You guys created that culture. Yeah. That type of mindset. Yeah. Right. Think about Jamie Collins in that situation. It took him a couple years to understand it. Yeah. Right. So for you to transition to a new moment, that's the culture to try to get there. But now you can teach the process to create in that culture. And then also in business, right? Like Jim Collins, all these phenomenal business imprints, talks about good to grade, how the mighty fall, built to last, all those things. one of the things that he teaches in these books is when a new executive come in and lead the company, how to transition, how to get the right people on the bus, who to take off the bus, put in different seats.

So even men and women built in companies need to hear this story. So there's, you still, like, you're different. You're a different type of high performer because it's just like win, win, win. But I think that like there's guys like me that appreciate some of the losing because of the lessons that, you learned and built you up, but then also to teach. And so, man, that's so, that's a beautiful story for me. Listen, coming from you, that means everything to me. You know, because all that I really care about, the players are what's important to me, right?

And I've developed a lot of coaches, too, you know, Pat Graham, Brian Flores, Josh Boyer, like those are all my QC, Brennan Daly, like, you know, Ben Johnson, I hired at Detroit. Like, those are my guys that I've hired and I saw something in. So I love developing coaches, but to me, you know, it's about the players. and you mentioned a word earlier that I definitely did not have my first year, and that was the joy. Joy. And can you imagine being a, like, I find, like, my 12-year-old self should be kicking

the shit out of myself. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was the head coach, like me? That's right. Coming from a small town in New York where I didn't play major college football. I didn't have all that. I was smart.

I knew the game. I was taught really well. I can teach the game. I know how to do all that. But to walk in there as a head coach and not, like, have joy. because I was mad that Ertz got a touchdown pass and go, you know, in a blitz got, like you don't forget those calls. And it took me that whole season to kind of then stop me, like, I got to reset.

And you know how that is. It's really hard after a year, you know, to try to reset all that stuff. But that's growth mindset, right? And we got to go in and we got to try to continue a growth mindset. Do you want another chance? I'm very competitive. So, you know, I think I would love to. You know, look, I think, listen, Pete Carroll.

At a head coach shot? Is that what you're talking about? Listen, Pete Carroll, you know, he was at New England. Yes. Got fired. Yes. Bill was at Cleveland. He got fired.

Now I'm not saying I'm Pete Carroll or Bill Belichick, but there's a lot of great coaches that unfortunately I joined a fraternity with that all have been fired in the NFL. And some others have had, you know, second chances and done well because there is no book for it. There is no book. And I think you might appreciate this is that one of the things Coach Carroll talks about often is that fire from the jets, fire from New England. and then he went on a self-discovery process. Yeah. Okay? So that was, that pain was like, oh, wait, I need to get myself together.

Yeah. I need to know who I am so that I can act accordingly, so that I can think accordingly. So he journaled his process to get down into like who he was and what he wanted to build if he ever had another chance. Yeah. And so the self-discovery process is. It's huge. It's huge. What do you do?

I did the same thing. Yeah. What is your process? If we knew what you knew about investing in yourself to, if the listener of viewer were like, well, how do I do it? How do I know myself better? What did you do for that process? I think it's, I was sitting in a situation where I got let go from Detroit.

And I think you spend like, you know, you spend a while going, why? Why? You know, what happened? Like, hey, there was a plan. We were moving. You know, it was going to happen, but it was a big, you know, why, why? And you stopped saying why. and you start saying, okay, what did I do?

Because we spent all of our time as coaches critiquing and criticizing and correcting and fixing, well, okay, I needed to do that to myself. So it took a whole quality control approach. You know, I called the people that worked underneath me on my staff, the people that worked in the building. And I just did like almost six months of interviews. And I said, listen, I said, this is going to be hard for me. I said, but I need it.

I said, so please just, and I wrote it all down. And I tried to also ask questions like, hey, where do you think the problem was here? How could I have done this different? Or what did I not see? A lot of sometimes you don't see stuff. You know, and you're like,

what was happening? And there was just a whole process of like six months of like, gathering information, hit that Michael Jordan thing too, which was great for me. I love the 30 for 30s, right? Those are so inspiring and such, you know, good mental thinking of like,

I'm always trying to like, how do champions think, how do they work, you know, trying to tap into that mentality. And I talked to a bunch of people, that had worked with me before I left and kind of, you know, I talked to my family a lot. Okay?

What, what, you know, and look, I would, I would go to the office on Sundays after the game. I didn't go home until Friday. I slept in the office every night. I'd go home for Friday for two hours, see my kids, go back Saturday, and not go home again until Friday. Like, that's not a good, that's not a good way to live. I was going to just say. Yeah, and I was, I was very large.

I was eating, you know, all the time. Yeah. And, you know, I just was like, this is. A, I'm going to die. This is the dark side of high performance. Is those mine, yours, yours, our selfish pursuit to be our very best. We say it's for like the guys or whatever, but really there's something about us that we want to know we're okay. And winning is the anecdote of the insecurity of not knowing.

So you're not on the dark side any longer of. No, no, we're good. You know, so the heart part is going back and reading all that information a couple of, months after you take it all. That's a beautiful process. Really as you're taking it, you're probably not actually comprehending it. Yeah, it's a little bit. Yeah. And sometimes in my head, it's got to sit for a little bit. And then I went back and read through it all. And I think one of the things is you read through, when I read through my notes, I tried to identify before I went through, what are my core values? Why did I start coaching? What's important to me as a person and as a

coach. And if I don't find these things in these next set of pages of notes that I just put down of what I just did, I go, then I got a problem. And I got to fix that. Yeah. Amazing. What is your purpose, coach? Yeah. I love that question. Obviously, take family out of it, right? You know, and right now, one of the beauties that I've been able to do is just be a better dad, be a better husband. You know, I am not good at the work, work-life balance at all. Yeah. I did not learn that very well. And as I'm listening. Yeah. And that. And that. And that. That is probably what affects me the most.

You know, I get really depressed when I don't see my kids or I don't see my wife. Did you struggle with depression? Well, I mean, I think we all do, right? When we were in those situations, you're working 20, 22-hour days. Yeah. Right? I mean, that's not healthy. No.

You know, and you're constantly at the highest of high levels. Like, think about it. Like in New England, we went to eight straight AFC championship games. Every year was like the maximum amount of stress and pressure. And then the next year was more, you know, because they, they build and you're not taking care of yourself. You're not in the best mindset. And, you know, that can affect you. So I always say all the time, like, you know, I'm old. And not every one of my years is going to be my best year. And I know that first year in Detroit was not my best year. I know that,

you know, for a fact. But that doesn't mean I'm not a good person. It doesn't mean I'm not a good guy. You know what I mean? It just, I was not my best. So you try to regroup and rebuild and go. So for me, you know, my purpose in the game had to really come back to, and this was not on my list of notes, somewhere along the line winning and competition and being at the top of the mountain, crushed everything else that you get into coaching for. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, I got into coaching because I remember at RPI watching Jimmy Scher, who was my replacement at right guard after I graduated. I'm a GA.

I watched him do something in a game that I taught him how to do, and we scored a touchdown, and the joy that I saw on his face was my switch. Because you spend most of that year, when football is done and it's taken away from you as a player, obviously I'm small-level football, small college football, but you spend the next six months ago, I can still play. That's right.

I can still do this. I can still do this. But the joy. You probably could play right now. 40. We can get you. We get you. A little tight little tight.

We could catch a couple touchdowns. But that joy that I saw him have on his face flipped it for me. And I was like, I had more happiness and appreciation for his joy than I did probably in my entire playing career. And so that was my flip. I wanted to help young men grow and be better men and football players. And that was the reason. I'm an aeronautical engineer. Like, I had an unbelievable.

career path. I left all that to go to coaching. And that's why, because I wanted to help people. And I lost that somewhere. Coach, I think it's bigger than just athletes. I, like, I've been around a lot of great leaders. I had an opportunity to learn from you guys from afar. I'm a big fan of Bill Belichick. And what he's about, and I'm also, I fell in love with Pete Carroll when I was there. And so, I understand leadership. And one of the things I used to do when I played, I would take notes of all my head coaches from Mike Shanahan to Tony Sparano to Pete Carroll like I was able to take notes and I was watching it right and I'm saying all that to say that I believe you're exceptional and I think that is bigger than just and I'm not you know me as a player I'm not a bullshitter

yeah and I don't know if we are real like to say this because we got presented by Microsoft yeah right but my big Microsoft guy coach you're exceptional I appreciate you're exceptional and I think that your message and your philosophy, your methodology is something that we can take as athletes, as entrepreneurs, and even also managing our household. Like, if we take our same approach in sport to becoming the best husband, the best wives, the best fathers, like, we're talking about high performance at another level, right? I had that same challenge as a transitioning from athlete to entrepreneur.

I had the same mindset going into building my company, now leading my team. I thought everybody was high performers. Or could understand the culture. And what I did is I invested $15 million into my company. The first year, we lost $400,000. The second year, we hit $5 million. year we had 10.5 million dollars and then it came crashing down because what you mismanaged you lose yeah and what I what where I was struggling was was building

my team and the culture because I was coming in every day like the standard is the standard yeah yeah yeah and they didn't know that like this person don't understand right the environment that I came from that I was trained in and so the key learning for me over the last couple years has been how to build my team and built that culture and the journey and the process of it. So I spent the last year and a half just I'll show you. I'll show you guys Bill Belichick, Pete Carroll, Coach Tomlens, you know, team meetings, their speeches.

I'm saying, hey, guys, this is the environment I'm used to. So coach, I'm right there with you. And I don't know why I'm feel called to say this to you, but I feel like when you are in that meeting again in front of the ownership and you get that opportunity that you lead with that. Like, man, that's the power. That's the juice. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah.

Thank you. Wow. What a. And thank you. Listen, like I said, we've known each other a long time, competed against each other forever. You know how much respect I have for you. I wanted to bring you in because I knew, you know, again, I knew you'd get it, you know. But for you to say that, that means more to me than anything because you played the game

and you've seen great leaders and you've seen coaches. and I just appreciate that a lot. Because there's a science that you have, like you said, like the science behind it, there's a science that you have that can't be taught. And one of the things that I've learned in my own journey is the relationships is all that matter. So now I'm being able to put the emotional part in

that you talked about and bringing up Chandler Jones and going back in 2012. Like that is the sauce. We got the science down, but then a relationship? That's it. That's it. It is.

And I always say with the relationship thing, my biggest thing was, and this is what we all need to be, and I would tell you, just be authentic. I don't care. Whatever it is, it is. It doesn't matter. I love all of you. Just be authentic so I know.

Because once it starts to be unauthentic, especially like me, like I've got to be authentic, then all the leadership styles don't matter. People see the message. But if you're not authentic, authentic, it's hard to see the message because they're too busy looking at what style are you? Yeah. So there's three legs to trust.

Authenticity is one of them. So are you consistent in the character that you show in calm waters? Are you the same in rugged waters? That's one. The second is, does your logic make sense? Do you have the ability? Should I trust you because, like, can you get it done? And then the third is, do you see what I'm in this relationship for as well?

Can you get the benefit from me? Yeah. Is it all about you or is about us? Do I trust your ability? And are you the same person, calm waters and rugged waters? Those are the three legs to the stool of trust. And it sounds like you've got them. So listen, I think we could go on for a long time.

What a gift to have you here, Coach. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Random Marshall, like you really bring it home for us. So thank you for talking and exploring about the game inside the games. And this is a real treat. Thanks so much. I appreciate you guys more than I can express it.

Why do we have to stop? So good. So good. So good. Thanks so much. Yeah, that is awesome. Yeah. You guys are the best.

Okay, co-pilot, you were part of all that conversation. And I didn't want it to end. Brandon didn't want it to end. What is the main insight from that conversation? What stood out to you? Was mad describing being in the zone? Time slowing down. No way fading.

and how he was able to focus only on what matter. Flow state. Of course. Flow state. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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