Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Optimizing Your Sleeping Patterns | CEO of Eight Sleep, Matteo Franceschetti

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Matteo Franceschetti, the CEO of Eight Sleep.Matteo has always been obsessed with performance. Athletic performance, business performance, and now sleep performance.His drive to succeed propelled him from sports podiums to the top tier of the international legal world and to start starting up two clean-tech companies on two different continents, all before age 30.Not surprisingly, sleepless nights were a way of life.It was Matteo’s quest for more restorative sleep, in fact, that led him down the path to launch Eight Sleep, a company dedicated to fueling human potential through optimal sleep, and to turning the bed into a seamless health platform for improved health, performance, and longevity. Eight Sleep has been an amazing partner to us for a few years now and I wanted to speak to Matteo to understand both his entrepreneurship journey and his insights on sleep. What’s the key to getting a great night’s sleep? I think you’ll be surprised to learn about some common sleep misnomers that we touch on in this episode.You can also learn more about our partnership with Eight Sleep and get $150 off when you visit eightsleep.com/findingmastery._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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but then a third of my life is spent on a piece of dumb phone. And when you think about a third of your life, don't think daily. Think across the whole life. Let's say you live 100 years. It's 33 years of your life that are spent without technology on a piece of dumb foam. And maybe they could be compressed to 25 years. So what if I give you back eight years of your life?

Would you care? All right, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, fortunate to work with some of the top performers across the planet. And the idea behind these conversations, this podcast, is to learn from extraordinary people. What we're going to do is we're going to pull back the curtain to explore how they've committed to mastering both their craft and their minds. And our minds are our greatest asset. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, this is just a quick

little reminder here that we've built an online psychological training course that I created with the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, Pete Carroll. And you can find all of that information at findingmastery.net forward slash course. And it's one of the great investments that you might make in your life for yourself and for loved ones. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening.

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And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless,

I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Matteo Franceschetti, the CEO of Eight Sleep. Matteo has always been obsessed with performance, athletic performance, business performance, and now sleep performance. And he's found success in all three, sports podiums, working at an international law firm, and then starting two clean tech companies on two different

continents. And he did all this before the age of 30. So not surprisingly, sleepless nights were a way of life for him. And that's what led him down this path. It was Mateo's quest for more restorative sleep that in fact led him down the path to launch Eight Sleep. It's a company dedicated to fueling human potential through optimal sleep and to turning the bed into a seamless health platform for improved health performance and longevity. Eight Sleep has been an amazing partner for us for a handful of years now. And I wanted to speak to Mateo to understand both his entrepreneurial journey and his insights there, as well as his insights on sleep.

And when you think about like, what are the keys for a great night's sleep? You probably know what good sleep hygiene is, but I think that you'll be surprised to learn more about some of the common misnomers that we touch on in this episode. You can also learn more about our partnership with Eight Sleep and get $150 off when you visit eightsleep.com forward slash finding mastery. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Mateo. Mateo, how are you? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. Hey, congratulations on what you built. I think that you have made a dent, definitely in my family's life, but in performers and people

who are interested in human performance. And so I love it. I'm so excited to talk to you. And, you know, before we get started, I just want to say thank you for supporting the podcast as well. It's been meaningful to us. No, absolutely. We're big supporters and believers in what you do as well. So thanks to you as well. Yeah, cool. Okay, good.

So let's do this, Mattel. Let's just get a quick frame of where you came from. And that will eventually lead us to where you are and the insights you've gathered. And then that will set us up for where's the future, both for sleep, both for being an entrepreneur, you know, and being a human for the next iteration of what humanness means, right? So we'll go a little past right now

and then we'll get to the future. So where'd you grow up? I know sport was a big part of your life. Yeah, born and raised in Italy. I was really doing sport all the time when I was a teenager. I was doing mainly tennis. That was probably 80% of my focus. When I was somewhere between 10 and 12 years old, I was doing ski races as well.

Then I also had that big accident at the time and that is when I really switched to tennis. And then I started racing with go-karts when I was somewhere around 16, 17 years old. My dad used to be in the junior team of the ski national team, Italian national team. Then he has been two times Italian champion with cars in hill climbing. So that is where I have learned the passion for motorsport and for sport in general. What is growing up in Italy? How has that influenced your thinking about... So I haven't spent meaningful time there.

My family of origin is Geritano and so Sicilian. And so I have an influence, but I want to know how growing up in Italy has influenced your outlook on life. What are some things you're like, wow, I wish other people, like I don't understand that they don't think this way or they don't respond this way. Yeah. Well, let's start from a couple of funny stories and then I'll answer specifically. So first of all, my hometown is, there are 150,000 people living there. So it's

reasonably small. We have a castle from, I think, 800 in the middle of the city, but it's as big as a block in New York, right? So it's a big, big castle with the water around. And then we have the walls, I think, made in 1200, that they surround the city. Because it's a city from the Middle Ages. For the first time, I took my wife there. She's Mexican. She's from TJ.

And there are, in the center of the city, some of these very old houses that now are sort of like premium houses because they have been not remade and they're very old and now she asked me, you know, she look at these houses and said, do people really still live here? Because she couldn't believe that they were living in houses that have a thousand years, right? They are a thousand years old. I think the bottom line is, look, I mean, Italy has a lot of pros. I love my country. I think the bottom line is, look, I mean, Italy has a lot of pros. I love my country.

I think it teaches a lot about aesthetic, about fashion, about pleasure, about life enjoyment, right? From food to clothes to everything you do in your life, right? Italians are probably some of the best in the world. And that is something i can still turn on when i want to be on vacation or when i want to take care of myself um but definitely not then in the us i really learned how to do i think probably real real business okay so the the life flourishing part you've got your italian roots and then the business frames, you learn from the American ethos. Yeah, UK when I work in the UK law firms and us Yes. Okay. And then where was your training? boots on the ground

scrappy figured out or did you go more traditional education route? Well, traditional because I started studying law, my dad and my sister, they're both lawyers. So at the time, I was the typical athlete, just working out and doing sports. I was not really caring about my career. Then something switched at a certain point, and I understood the importance of graduating with good results.

And so at the end, I graduated with honor. I started learning English until when I was 21. I was not speaking English. But I wanted to get into the best law firms in the world. When I really understood, okay, now my future will be a professional future, not as an athlete. I still wanted the best. I didn't want to work at my dad's law firm in a small town. I said, screw that.

There are these guys. I still remember this magazine where I read it randomly one day and I read there were these big lawyers working on these big M&A transactions. But to be admitted there, you had to graduate magna cum laude and with honor, and you had to speak English, and these were the guys. That day, something in my mind switched and i went from the first six seven eight months of university where they were okay to then nailing one after the other the scores and graduating the town okay i moved to the us studied here for six months learned english went back and got into the largest law firms in the world. Very cool. Okay. So that's probably helped your savviness as being an entrepreneur, is having a good foundation in law and some frames of reference there.

Okay. Why sleep? Everything started because of two reasons. First, I wanted to sleep less to work more, good or bad. But that is how I started looking into that. Why do I need eight hours? Why Elon Musk is taking me to Mars, but I still spend a third of my life on a piece of dumb foam?

There is no technology. So it didn't change for 4,000 years. It didn't make sense to me. Hold on. You say people are on Mars, but why are you still sleeping on the same foam that our great, great grandparents were sleeping on? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. All right. Yeah, yeah. foam you know that would that our great great grandparents were sleeping on yeah yeah yeah okay good all right yeah yeah the latest innovation in beds is memory foam invented in 1960 from the nasa and it's just a piece of foam like the other one it just behaves slightly differently it actually doesn't work for me i feel i get really hot like it doesn't i don't breathe properly maybe it works for some folks but i i tell you, like what you've done us as scientists, as an applied scientist in human performance, right. And as a specifically through the lens of psychology, sleep is foundational. I know you're going to go here about how important it is. I just want to know why sleep for you, but what you've done as a disruptive nature to get temperature at a local level, not like local in your room, but local to like the thing that's touching your body.

Yeah, man, I can't wait to get into some of what you're finding and whatever. But okay, but why sleep for you? You wanted to sleep less so you could work more? Yeah, that is how everything started. I started looking into why we were sleeping eight hours. And it's not written anywhere that you need to sleep eight hours. And so I started understanding that that is just how inefficient your body is. And because your body is inefficient, it takes eight hours. But what you really need is the amount of deep, the amount of REM, and maybe to a certain

degree, a certain amount of light sleep. But you don't need eight hours. Potentially, you could sleep in six hours if you compress the amount of light sleep. And then I started wondering why there is now we're building reusable rockets and we have phones in our pockets all day. But then a third of my life is spent on a piece of dumb foam. And when you think about a third of your life, don't think daily. Think across the whole life. Let's say you live 100 years. Good. Now we will live longer. It's 33 years of your life that are spent without technology on a piece of dumb foam,

and maybe they could be compressed to 25 years so what if i give you back eight years of your life would you care yeah i like it okay yes all right and i'll tell you like let me just jump to a kind of an applied challenge right now because i i still want to get into your framework and how you work because it's going to set up how you've built the thing that you've built and where you're going next. But I'll tell you one of the, so I like technology as feedback loops. I think it's really valuable. And sometimes I look at my technology and it says, okay, light sleep was this or deep sleep was that, or REM sleep was whatever. And it's like, I don't know how I can impact my REM sleep. I don't know how to make my deep sleep better. I get all of the stuff that you're

going to recommend, which is like, okay, intermittent fasting, food restriction, exercise in the day, as opposed to at night, make sure hydration's right, meditate, breathing. And I'm doing all that. But I still can't manipulate deep sleep and REM sleep. Can I just insert like a very applied problem that I have right now that I think many people, when they look at their feedback loops, are trying to solve? Can you teach on that for just a moment? Yeah. And I think that is a core principle of what we do at Eight Sleep compared to wearables, right? I think wearables are still great devices, but some of our customers, they say, so what?

I have all this data. My light sleep was 17%. Sorry, my deep sleep was 17%. My REM was 15%. So what? How do we take it to 20? That's right. And so there is where we come in right and we started with temperature because temperature is the big elephant in the room when you think of sleep improvements right there is clinical evidence or you just read the book why we sleep from professor matthew walker there's a whole section about thermal regulation so there is evidence that through thermal regulation you can fall asleep up to 20% faster.

You can get up to 20% more deep sleep and more REM. You get, based on our data, 40% less wakeups and 30% less toss and turns just through thermal regulation. So maybe we are not compressing your sleep two hours, but we are making your sleep more restful. Definitely you fall asleep faster. Definitely you will wake up feeling more refreshed. Temperature is just the first, then we will start tackling light and noise. Okay, so let's let's not do light noise for a moment. But with your tech, one of the things that I think is

significant is that the intelligence of adjusting temperature throughout the night, because the second half of sleep, you want to get more REM sleep in. Correct. And so if I run hot, so I'll wake up on the second half of sleep as my body temperature is going up, I need my mattress to cool down. And so my thermostat in my room doesn't do enough for it. Correct. So I'm not, is your tech, I'm not clear on this actually, is your tech following my body? Cause I like set it. I set, I set what I want to have on your app, right? I'm sending it like, okay. Um, I want to start at this temperature and end at this temperature. Is it actually fluctuating throughout the night

based on the feedback that it's getting from my body temperature? So we're developing what is called temperature autopilot. Okay. That obviously follows the autopilot concept. So what you will see, you will receive software updates. I'm already sleeping on these new ML models where we can adjust temperature based on your sleep stages, based on your heart rate variability and your HR. So I think one of the key components of our device is that it will keep getting better and better through software updates. It's like a Tesla, right? It's overbuilt from an outdoor standpoint and just through software,

we can improve your experience over time. And what you just described is going to happen in the next few months. Okay. All right. Good. Because I'm glad I didn't make the assumption because I was wondering if that was happening, but you're on what exactly your customer, me, wanted. Yeah.

All right. Very cool. And then, okay. So let's go back to your history. Thank you for entertaining a very specific question. And let me summarize it quickly is that in the second half of sleep, it's really about REM. And if, if you are solving a temperature regulation issue and I wake up when it gets hot, that you're saying, I'm going to keep you cool and you might get more REM sleep in return. Even more deep sleep, right? The clinical evidence shows that you could get up to 20% more deep sleep. Some of our customers, they report even up to 40% with their aura or their group. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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and there's lots of analogies, you know, it's the cleaning up, it's the memory consolidation, it's, are you staying in those lanes or do you have some new insights that you've come to understand about sleep? So the way I pitch this always, I try not to follow the grandma rule.

So I try to be as simple as possible. And so the deep sleep is really the recovery for your physical body, right? While instead the REM is the recovery for your mind, which is now a memory consolidation and the reorganization of all the information that you collected during the day. The first part of the night is physical, as we say, because it's deep. And so, for example, if you're sleep deprived, your body will just spend more time on deep sleep at the beginning. Once the deep sleep or the minimum deep sleep has been achieved is when it shifts to REM. By the way, there is also clinical evidence that the temperature between REM and deep

is different, right? And the reason is particularly because when you are in REM, your brain deactivates certain body functions because you're dreaming, right? When you dream, you're in REM, not when you're in deep sleep. And so it deactivates temperature control. So usually your body to maximize the REM phase needs to be in what is called thermal neutrality. So the brain doesn't feel that you could die because it's too hot or too cold. Well, instead in deep sleep is when the environment could be way hot, way warmer or way colder. But in general, temperature is very subject based, meaning it's subject to your gender, to your age, to your metabolism, to when you train

that day, to the temperature in the room, if you had alcohol or not, if you had carbs or not. Yeah. Okay. And so when I play that back in my head, it's like REM sleep for mental processing. And what you're suggesting is that your brain is trying to sort out how to survive at all times and so if you are in it so it's sensitive to temperature during rem

when you're in ram your brain deactivates temperature control in the body oh so i got it exactly wrong yeah it's the opposite so it doesn't control it yeah right so if you were in a winter storm you could potentially die if you were in REM phase so your brain doesn't let you get into REM if you're in an environment that is too cold the same thing happens with if it's too hot okay um so then why do I wake up in the second half of sleep when I'm too hot? So the first question is the second part of the night is not all the REM, right? Correct. Okay. Got it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So that fluctuation. Yeah. It's a percentage, right? You get, so a sleep cycle is 90 minutes, right? And that includes light, deep and REM. And both, all these phases are always included in the 90-minute cycle.

In the first part of the night, you tend to get a larger percentage of deep compared to REM. In the second part of the night, you get a larger percentage of REM compared to deep. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. Thank you. Getting a little crash course, reminding some good stuff here.

Okay. Okay. Mateo, let's go back to history. I understand why you wanted to invest in building a technology and because it was a solution you needed. Why become an entrepreneur? So I became an entrepreneur when I was still in Italy, right? When I was still a lawyer. So there was this opportunity I saw in renewable energy. It was probably the only opportunity of a lifetime in Italy to become an entrepreneur because you cannot raise money in Italy, right? So that company was profitable since

day one. And it was the closest thing to sport, right? It's exactly like being an athlete. And so when I saw that opportunity, I didn't even know what an entrepreneur was. I didn't know what a startup was. I didn't even know the word startup when I was in Italy. But I just felt it. It was fighting like an athlete. And so it scratched two edges. One is this thing is not existing that I'm interested in on the sleep side, not on the renewable. And the second is like, ooh, it feels like I'm in the,

I'm in the, on the grid again, I get to compete in a way that feels familiar. Okay. Is there a moment that comes to mind when you think about the single most difficult moment in your life? I mean, many, I think it depends from the perspective, right? There was as an entrepreneur, many. I think it depends from the perspective, right? There was, as an entrepreneur, many, because most of my companies probably died almost 10 times and then we saved them. But I think there is a very critical moment that is when I became an entrepreneur. It was 2009 and my dad just died, right?

He died like December of 2008. And I was doing really well in the law firm, right? I was one of the fastest growing junior guys. And my family didn't have a lot of savings. And so my mom came to me and she said, look, why are you doing this, right? You're in one of the best law firms in the world. You're doing well. So if you keep doing well, you will be successful.

Why would you do this? And if something goes wrong, I can't back you up, right? We don't have your dad anymore. So I felt the pressure there. But then, you know, I did what I felt was right. And so far, so good. So is the difficult moment making the choice? Or is the difficult moment your dad passing? I did what I felt was right and so far so good. So is the difficult moment making the choice or is the difficult moment your dad passing?

And I don't want to make light of it, but I hear both of those in there. Making a decision that is not reversible, right? That is how I think of decision. That is not reversible. Once I quit the law firm, yeah, maybe they would take me back because it was good, but very likely no. And then how do I pay the bills? How did you do that? How did you make that decision? Usually in those moments, I, so today I have frameworks, but at the time I just followed my gut. I wanted to do that. I do what I want want i'll figure it out spoken like a true downhill racer you know i'm just gonna get on edge i'm gonna torque that ski as much as a human can and i hope i don't

spring out of it you know like okay all right so you've got it do you have a high appetite for or capacity for risk yes physical risk both financial? Both. Financial risk? Financial, I mean, I do my own projection. I write my number at the time I calculated with my head in the bank if something would go wrong. I think I had six months of life. And then I started making a probabilistic assessment on finding a job within six months so i was not completely done in in in my assessment but then i trusted that i would figure out within six months okay and then high on physical what about emotional risk probably less it depends on the definition of emotional uh it's like saying the thing that your heart feels

in stepping into a moment of vulnerability. So I'm really good at telling you what I think, even giving feedback. For example, as a CEO, I'm the type of guy who tells you straightforward what is on my mind. But when it's time to open myself emotionally and you know i'm not showing my vulnerability um i'm not good at that yeah okay so lower on emotional risk high on

physical and financial and then when it comes to um moral risk like breaking some moral rules um because you find them that they don't really matter how about that type of risk most people say i'm low most people do not say yeah i could just answer that but i want to think it depends on on the mode of risk right if you are if it's about cheating your wife or killing a person no no, I'm really low. But maybe there are others where I'm a bit more flexible. I don't know. But I think I have strong values. The way I would answer is I think I have strong family values and for family, not just within the family, but I think my family gave me core values of how I should judge myself as a human being. And so those things are not

compromisable. There you go. Okay. And then the other one is social risk. Can you give me an example? Being okay to look like a fool because like people are going to judge you and think that what you've done is stupid, but you're like, Hey, listen, I'm going for it. I have a i don't care much what they think or like that would be somebody that breaks or takes risk socially and then highs or low social risk is like nah if i get kicked out of the tribe i don't know how i'd really manage it so i'm gonna play it yeah that is a good one meaning that it changed a lot during my life when you come from a small city in particular in

italy everyone is always judging you because they probably do not have too much to do or other things to think and so they judge you from everything right from from the watch that you're wearing to how you behave to how you dress it is very like that there in small towns in Italy. And so I think when I was a kid, I was quite impacted by that. And I think as you become older, and I think as you have more data points on yourself, then is where you gain a little bit of freedom every single time, right? Because you have a... What I was thinking makes sense. I don't get what they think because now,

I'm making more progress than them. Then I think like any smart person, it becomes a measurement of, okay, who is giving me feedback? Do I listen to feedbacks? And then am I able to take my own decision? And I think there is where I'm finding a good compromise, where I'm a good listener.

But then I still have my independent opinion and I do what I feel is the right thing. Okay. So it sounds like you've actually migrated from... Yes. Yeah, from a high need or high sensitivity to what others are thinking to a lower sensitivity. And you've replaced it more with like, I'm making some internal calibrations high need or high sensitivity to what others are thinking to a lower sensitivity.

And you've replaced it more with like, I'm making some internal calibrations based on what feels accurate and true for me. Correct. I have buckets and I look at the feedback in each of these buckets from people that I believe are key stakeholders on the bucket. Let's say as a CEO, other people that are great investors or great CEOs, if they give me a feedback, I listen to them. And then I could go in an opposite direction. And instead for more of staff, maybe I listen to other people, you know?

And so I select these key stakeholders in each bucket and I keep myself accountable to those people. Cool. Okay. And then earlier you mentioned that's, that's one framework that you're using. And then earlier you mentioned, and I wanted to hit it at that moment, but I didn't, that you said, I've got some other frameworks on risk-taking, which is more decisions. Yeah. Decisions. Yeah. Cause you're saying I went with my gut at that one point, you know, about whether I listened to my gut. And so what are the frameworks now that you're using?

So the first one is reversible versus not reversible. I love that framework, by the way, a swinging door versus yeah. Yeah. That is one connected to Jeff. There is also the regret minimization framework that they use. I fast forward myself when I'm 80 years old, I look back, would I regret this decision or not? Which if you think is part of what happened when I decided to become an entrepreneur. Then as a CEO, the other thing I use for quadrants and I have a line for impact and one for knowledge, Right. And so if I have high knowledge and it's high impact, I take the decision. If it's low impact and I have no knowledge, I delegate 100% times. And then you can play and position each potential decision in this framework and you decide

how much you want to be involved. Matteo, I love it. That's a game changer right there. Okay. So you went knowledge and impact. Yeah. So how do you determine on the impact side if something has high impact? It's so objective. Yeah. Objective. Can this increase my revenue 10X? Is it a non-reversible decision?

Those are all impact measures. Yeah. And and then do you make like you say 10x is that a framework that you use as well 10x or is it yeah i did zero connects that is how i code what's the first part you said add a zero add a zero don't do anything that doesn't add a zero to the top line that's what i usually say to my team don't do anything that doesn't add a zero to the top one. Yeah. Okay. Cool. All right. So you're drinking right out of the

Silicon Valley, you know, page or a fountain there on some of this stuff. So is 10X a real framework for you though? Oh, 100%

is one of our values in the company. I hate values if it's one of those. I repeat it all the time. Yeah. I didn't know if you're throwing it

around right now or you're like, no, we've thought seriously about 10x okay now i i say that i use that framework probably once a day you do okay how how many employees do you have right now we are in the 50s and we are more than doubling what does your senior leadership team look like? How many? We are five and high indices. Five. Okay. And then the other 50, whatever, roll up to those five?

In terms of profiles? Yeah. 60% is between engineering and product, and the rest is ops and growth. Ops and growth. Okay. Engineering and ops and growth. Ops and growth. Okay. Engineering and ops and growth. No sales? Ops and growth.

Yeah, it's part of growth. Yeah, okay. Mostly all digital? Right now, yes, but we are opening non-digital. Okay. Where do you get nervous, Matteo, about the future of 8sleep?

Hiring. I would say the number one, once you hire the right people, they will figure it out. So you can trust them. If you hire the wrong people, you're just having a larger organization that just moves slower. What's the wrong person?

Every organization is different, right? And it's like being friends. That is what I always tell people, right? You cannot be friends with everyone. And people that for us are good are people that are really intense, meaning they work at high intensity. They move fast. They are highly coachable. We know how to do our own things. We are really detail-oriented probably comes from my past as a lawyer right we want to do things in a certain way and so we want people that are humble enough to take that and maybe fine-tune it so it's not that we pretend to not to set every rule and and people that really care i mean here we can save lives, we can extend lives, and we can just help people live a better life.

And so we don't want mercenaries, but that is a different way to say the same concept. And then when, at what point did you lose track of the final nighting of who's going to be on the team? At some point, people were hiring others. Was it your first, after, say, first 10 employees? No, I still hire. Everyone we hire, I interview them. There are degrees, but at least one interview and more and more roles,

I'm involved in a couple of these interviews. And executives, obviously, I spend at least six hours, six to 10 hours with each executive before hiring them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. All right. I love what you're doing. I love your frameworks. I love the product. I think what you're on is really cool. What is your craft at this point? I think, I mean, obviously there should be others judging that.

I think there is one that I believe I have that is, there are a couple, but the first one or the one I'm most proud of is when I let people achieve more than what they believe they could achieve. That is what makes me really, really happy. And the way I do it is because I push them, I stretch them. But then you have this reward where they really unlock superpowers. And that is what makes me happy because now these people are happier or stronger or more confident people. So that is number one. Then I think I'm good at fundraising.

I'm good at... I'm a very present CEO, right? You can call me anytime of the day or the night. I will always be there. For our best people, we have done a lot of things personally to help them. So we take care of our people. I read that you are a bit like a doctor, that running a company, you know, like the CEO is a bit like a doctor, that nobody needs you when things are running smoothly, when health is good. But if something goes sideways, that's when they give you a jingle.

I always say that. I think that is probably my own framework. I've never heard anyone else talking about that, but I think the CEO is a doctor. They don't need me when they nail things. We just did a new record in sales this month, the greatest ever, beating Cyber Monday, Black Friday ever. They don't need me. They're nailing it. Then I can focus on the other things that are broken. When you guys go nuts and you celebrate something inside your company and you're like, Oh my goodness. What are there a couple of examples?

Like, do you guys celebrate? It does a good point. If you were asking me about my weakness, I, I, I struggled to celebrate because i'm already thinking about the next thing right we just see the new goal yesterday i'm already thinking okay from how do we grow 50 and hey hey what region you need some wine i don't drink you're done i've read that you're done with drinking right like you like did you i couldn't tell if you ran into like a cliff of drinking where you're like okay i got a problem or was

this more dietary like hey listen um i know the data on sleep and it is not helping me and i'm done with it yeah i decided overnight my wife with me it was actually i think exactly two years ago we came back from a trip in Europe where we had, you know, we were having cocktails before dinner, a bottle of wine. We came back. We felt bloated, disgusted. Obviously, we knew the date about sleep. We said, what if we stop?

We stopped. We never stopped again. Both of you guys. Yeah. Yeah. I think as being a sleep company. Yeah. I think you've got to like have some fidelity there.

So then ask me how alcohol affects my sleep. I ask you. Yeah. It's a dude. It screws me up now, but you know what? One glass, maybe a glass and a half, maybe two, about four hours before sleep. I don't see an impact. So I think my window is like three to four hours, you know, yeah. Same for you. Yeah. Yeah. I think for hours, it should be pretty average standard. So it's feasible.

Not everyone, but two hours is really the minimum, meaning you should stop doing at least two hours before. That means my dinner starts at like 5 p.m though you know more than dinner just drinking my drink yeah it's too much because i'm trying to shut her down like i'm competing my ass off to sleep is a big rock to get in a container and i can beat my ass off to get my sleep right. You know, it's a big deal for me. And so, yeah, I know it's a difference for sure. But, you know, one or two, actually, I don't notice it. There's something nice and social.

And, you know, I run kind of intense. And so I've got all the right practices, mindfulness and this, that, and the other to downregulate. But sometimes a glass of wine feels nice to us, you know. So, but if it's a 9 p.00 PM and I'm still, I'm suffering for two to three days. Yep. Yep. And then, so can you walk through some of your routines? I see you as a modern, a modern, um, entrepreneur businessman that is like doing some really cool shit so what are some of the routines that you got um so i usually wake up around 6 30 a.m um i if i can i train in the

morning um i i fast i fast all day so usually during the the week at least monday to friday once a day just for dinner 23 hour fast yeah during the weekend i do 16 8 so we have a sort of brunch with my wife um but yeah i don't drink um i i do in terms of training i do a lot of heat high interval intensity training i do strength um i when i can i do sauna or ice bath if i have them if i find them so i'm pretty obsessed with everything about you know health and sort of biohacking i also measure everything with our own device or i improve everything else i also usually look look i got aura ring on right now and we've got your technology at home so we're doing the same thing glucose

monitoring with levels i use that same yeah those are i would say key things uh nutrition sleep and and fitness and work and motorsport okay yeah that's what's up okay and then do you have any evening routines yeah so the lights in the house start dimming down and switch to orange around 7.30 and then they turn off by 9.30. Obviously, there is my bed thermoregulated. There is the temperature in the bedroom. If I can, sometimes after work, I try to do a hot-cold shower switching. I call it thermal shock. I'm also trying to build a sauna and an ice bath at home to do that. And then I do mobility

exercises before going to bed and re-boil. So are you cold shower or hot shower in the morning? Both. Both. And so are you both like to shower at night or in the morning or both? Both. I like both. And you're doing the shocking on both in the morning and evening. Okay. And then your HIIT training, 20 minutes? I do. So if it's on the treadmill and strength, it's probably somewhere between 30 and 45. Then I do a lot of tennis because I was a tennis player.

And so obviously that is one to two hours. Okay. I'm listening and I'm somewhat concerned about fatigue and burnout for you. You know, like an adrenal burnout where you're pushing so hard without enough sustenance. But I'm not looking at your nutrition your diet or your panel of blood or genetic profile so it sounds like you're pretty switched on there yeah i think i trashed myself pretty thing um so there could be some improvement um that i should do even because also the weekends now i tend to keep working definitely Sunday afternoon

I'm at my desk I get in the zone and then I'm always on which is good and bad yeah yeah what is the quality of your life do you feel like I love my life or are you playing in the game right now to try to manage now for better later tomorrow? No, I love my life. I feel like an F1 driver. Oh, look at you. Yeah. Okay. All right.

It was a big change since when I moved to Miami. When I was in New York, it was not. They called it the rat life with my wife because it was just work, work, work, and then some shopping and eating and keep going. But since when I moved to Miami, it's very different. Now we really enjoy our life. We have a bigger space. We have an outdoor.

We eat outdoor at night. We cook our dinner because she is one of the founders as well. And so we have this magic thing where we work really, really hard, but we have our own spaces where as a couple and as human beings. So it's the perfect combination. My wife and I work together as well. She's intimately involved in the company and there's challenges in that, you know, and there's some really fun stuff that comes out of it, you know, shared passion,

shared thinking, deep trust, you know, like really cool stuff that comes with it. You're building something together. Where do you guys create friction and, and how do you solve it? I think I'm lucky because Alexandra, I mean, she really has a great attitude.

Probably we have, I don't know, two tough moments a year, like a discussion usually happens when she's really stressed because at that point she's less flexible as standing me. And so sometimes when there is a big lunch or a big moment for the company, if she starts feeling that, that could be the case. But otherwise, I think we're really well balanced. We both, I think, really like our life. We don't have kids. And so every time that we have free, we can really spend it for us. We travel a lot because of work. So we have that variety. And she understands when I work hard and I understand her when she works hard without resentment because we're left behind because we're practically the same.

Okay, Matteo, you're sounding too good to be true. Okay. All right. Handsome, successful, smart, good love life. Come on, dude. Like, how am I supposed to drink this? Like, like, okay, dude, let's celebrate it. Like, we don't have to find something that's like sideways,

but I'm saying like, this sounds like, I bet. I bet people in your life look at you and go, okay, he's got something going. Yeah. And I mean, I, I, I don't care what other people think, right? I know my life is tough, right? Running a company like a startup, you have a lot of up and down. Again, it was not easy to come here to get here, which is still nowhere. But I'm saying I come from a small town of 150,000 people, I was not speaking

English, a 20 year old one, 21 years old. So I'm happy with my progress. And I'm proud of that, then like everyone, I had my weaknesses, I shared some. And we just keep going. I'm lucky with my family with my wife. Dude, I love it. Okay. Where are you going? What's the next iteration of your tech look like? And are you more interested in some of the data you're collecting or the hardware or the software?

You're probably going to say all three, but maybe there's something else I'm missing. And I'd love to know kind of where you want to go with your company. Because I love the hardware. Cool. You've got a mattress and you've got a mattress top. The technology, the software, you're tracking data. You're able to influence the hardware through your software. But the metadata that you have on folks has got to be pretty extraordinary and valuable.

But I'm not sure how. We really want to do two things, right? That's the way that I teach it. We want to compress your sleep and we want to save your life. Compress your sleep means what if you go to sleep only six hours and get more rest than when you were sleeping eight hours. And obviously it's a provocative number, but definitely we want technology to enhance your sleep performance. And then there is the big piece of what we are doing that is saving your life. We are looking at sensors that will be able to scan your body. And so what if in three years from now we could detect cancer or other illnesses while you're asleep?

That is one of the goals I gave to my engineers. Your technology, let's go a wrist-based and a finger-based technology for heart rate, heart rate variability. And, um, you know, let's just stay with those two. I, when I first was exposed to your product, I was like, no chance, no chance that you guys can do HRV and heart rate as good as a chest strap, as good as a finger strap, or as good as a wrist strap. How do you ring that bell? How do you answer that to the critical lens as an applied scientist? Always have evidence.

We are within one heartbeat per minute compared to a medical grade EKG. How? How are you? Well, I'm not asking for secret thoughts. Yeah. No, I mean, outside of sleep, if you just look at no ballista cardiography and our sensors, we didn't invent the wheel. The technology already existed. Just no one took it to consumer has been using hospitals since the seventies. So the fact that that technology can achieve

medical grade accuracy with or without sleep is proven. It's not debatable. Okay. I didn't know that. I read that you guys have high accuracy, but I haven't had the chance to connect some of those. We actually run some clinical trials in some of the largest hospitals in the US.

We have picked the first episode of a heart rate condition already with our devices. We're talking a pretty important name with a really important doctor. So the technology works, there are no doubts. Then obviously then making a compelling consumer product that can scale to a million people is different. I didn't notice in your personal routine stack, if you're doing any sort of meditation,

mindfulness training, breathing training, I didn't hear that. I know that to have a great impact on sleep. One of my weaknesses, meaning I do it, then I stop, then I redo it, and then I stop. I'm usually very consistent on things. My wife says I'm more German than Italian. But there is one of the things where I can't keep going. Okay. Where do you see the future?

And I want to honor your time and say thank you in advance. I love this conversation. But where are you see the future? And I want to honor your time and say, thank you in advance. I love this conversation, but where are you seeing the future? The future is sleeping faster, right? And saving your life. I can't accept that I need to go to the doctor, right? There are some of these cancer, like pancreatic or colon cancer, that most of the times, if you were able to detect them very early, you can save your own life. The reason why they're not detected early is because you don't go regularly to scan your body in those areas. The dad of my wife died because of colon cancer, for example. And so if we can use some of the technologies that we are exploring, and we can scan your body every single night and extend your life, in the regret minimization

framework that we discussed, that is what would make sense in how I spent my own life. In your words, how do you define mastery? How do you think about the concept? I use a different framework, at least for the greatest athletes, right? Greatest athletes, the difference between a great athlete and a good athlete is that the great athlete sometimes makes things impossible possible, right? A good one is, okay, you were already the favorite. No, you already had the likelihood to No, you already had on the likelihood to win, whatever you do it good. The greatest when there is no chance that he can make it this time and they will make it. I think

mastery is a similar concept applied to different crafts, right? Doesn't matter if you're a butcher or you have a bakery or, or you're a tech CEO, right? Can you make something impossible possible? Very cool. Matteo, thank you again. Super stoked that you're supporting us and that we're able to support you in return. I love the modern feel of what you're doing.

I love the authenticity of your approach. I love your openness and to explore ideas and concepts, your high conscientiousness to do right for individuals at scale. You've got this extroverted nature where you're a people person. You've got an agreeableness to you to want to take the next step with people. And I think that your, your sense of positivity with a, an honest, critical lens. And I say critical, not in like inspection, but like to really think about something deeply the frameworks that you've had, that you have in place are awesome. And so I'm stoked to know you and I'm stoked to support your company. And so I'm, I'm flat out wishing you the best. Thank you.

Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. It was a, a really different discussion from, uh, an interview from most of the ones that I have. Where do you mostly go? What are most of the conversations go?

There were business and, and tactical things. I think you were more, way more on the, you were way more on the, you challenged me more on the emotional side. Yeah. And weaknesses and strengths and history. So it's good.

I always like a lot of introspection to then raise my own bar. So I find this discussion very helpful for me to keep raising my bar. Yeah, let's go. Okay, Mateo. Hey, have a great rest of your afternoon. And thank you. Thank you. All right.

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