Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Overcome Your Greatest Obstacles - Lessons on Grit, Grace, and Mental Health | World Champion Obstacle Racer, Amelia Boone

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

How do you navigate the uncertain terrain of your life? Does uncertainty fuel your drive, or does it bring anxiety that hinders your progress?Our guest today, Amelia Boone, is not only a four-time obstacle race world champion with three World’s Toughest Mudder wins and dubbed “The Queen of Pain” – she also excels as a full-time attorney for a multinational corporation.And, she’s accomplished all this while grappling with not one, but two, lifelong mental health diagnoses -- OCD and an eating disorder. Amelia credits a hard-won ability to embrace uncertainty with helping her navigate the extreme mental and physical demands of her chosen life pursuits.Her story is a testament to the resilience we all require for facing life's mental and emotional hurdles. Through her eyes, we see the interconnectedness of physical endurance and mental toughness, and how fostering self-awareness, leading with vulnerability, and relentlessly pursuing personal growth in every aspect of life builds a foundation for success.This conversation is a powerful blend of grit, grace, and introspection that will resonate with anyone striving to level up – it serves as a reminder that we can shape our lives in any way we want, from the inside out. I can’t wait for you to learn from Amelia’s insights._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It is the breaking down of all of those walls and those barriers and saying, I need help and I need to fix this. Just being humble enough to know when you need to course correct. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training a high-performance psychologist, we all face uncertainty every day. No matter how detailed our to-do lists are or how specific our routines are, everything that we engage in has an unknown outcome.

So certainty is an illusion. Each moment is unique. Each moment is unfolding and wonderfully unknown. So how do you work with uncertainty? What feelings does it provoke? And is it excitement or curiosity or is it mostly anxiety? With that in mind, I am stoked to introduce our guest today, Amelia Boone. She is a four-time obstacle race world champion with over 30 victories, a three-time world's toughest mudder, and through her various triumphs, she's earned the title the Queen of Pain. In addition to her honors in extreme sports, she also excels as a full-time attorney for a multinational corporation. And she's accomplished all of this while grappling with not one, but two lifelong mental health diagnoses, OCD and an eating disorder. So Amelia credits a hard-won ability to embrace uncertainty with helping her navigate the extreme mental and physical demands of her chosen life pursuits. She shares her insights on how she works with anxiety, and we get down underneath the surface about how she pursues mastery and how that is fundamentally different from the pursuit of achievement and excellence. Now, her story is a

testament to the resilience we all require to face life's mental and emotional and physical challenges. Through her eyes, we see the interconnectedness of physical endurance and mental toughness, and how fostering self-awareness, leading with vulnerability, and relentlessly pursuing personal growth in every aspect of life builds a foundation for success. This conversation is a powerful blend of grit and grace and introspection, and I just can't wait for you to learn from Amelia's insights. So with that, let's dive right into this week's conversation with Amelia Boone. Amelia, I am stoked to have you on the Finding Mastery podcast. And before we dive in, how are you? I am doing very well. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Would you say otherwise if you were not? If you were having a really tough time,

would you say otherwise? You know, it depends on who I'm talking to and what kind of conversation I'm having. For the most part, I like to be very honest. Now at this point in my life, I like to tell people, you know, I actually been kind of a rough one, but getting through it. The reason I asked you that question is because on your Instagram, you present in a way that is overused a word right now as a placeholder, but there's an honest, a real, there's an authenticity about the porous nature between your external world and your internal life. I want to get into the mechanics of how that porous nature between those, the internal and external has worked for you. Before we dive in,

can you explain obstacle racing? Can you give us a sense of what that is so that our imagination can be clear about how you've spent most of your life? Very good question. I like to describe obstacle racing as kind of a combination of American Ninja Warrior, what people are very familiar, I think, with that show. And so you're climbing on things, you're jumping on things, but then also a lot of running and heavy lifting, kind of a military inspired course. So you're out there for 10, 12 miles, sometimes for 24 hours, depending on the race. And you are crawling under barbed wire. You are climbing over walls. You are carrying heavy things up a mountain. You are swimming in freezing cold lakes. So just very much a variety of strength and speed and endurance and skill. I started obstacle racing actually

not until my mid twenties. I was already an attorney at that point and then figured out I was actually really something I was, I was good at this as well. And so I spent several years at the top of obstacle racing and decided at that point, I kind of wanted to transition to ultra running as well. And so I started running ultras and I started running a hundred milers and, and all of these crazy races. And I had to manage injury in this because I was also hiding something that I didn't want to admit to myself or that, and I didn't want to admit to others, was that during this arc of my obstacle racing career and the eating disorder that I had dealt with as a teenager came back in full force. So I was

relapsing hard into an eating disorder. I was running and training absurd distances and I started to break and I got ephemeral stress fracture and it was easy to kind of write off as a one-time thing. And then I got another stress fracture and then I got another stress fracture and I threw my hands up in the air telling everybody I'm doing everything right. I don't know what's going on when internally I knew I wasn't feeding myself appropriately. And I had this secret and I had that I was full on relapsing. And so it came to this point of, you know, of massive amounts of injury and just the body breaking at all times, but knowing why that was. When I say four-time obstacle racing world champion and three-time Tough Mudder champion, when you hear that played back to you, how do you respond to that part of your accomplishments?

So I think for so much of my performance has been, and so much of my achievements, they've been incredible on the outside, but it hasn't fit with the narrative that I've had of myself from a very, very young age. And my story as a young child was that I was broken and that I was different and that I needed to prove and that I needed to achieve. And for many years, it's like I ran away. If, if as long as I kept achieving, then I never really had to face myself as a person. And so I think these past, you know, 10 years have been me coming into being, this is who I am as a person and, and feeling aligned with what I projected in the external world and like how I feel on the inside as well. Um, and doing that and breaking down that I don't have to hide behind a veneer of accomplishments and, um, you know, titles and world championships that people could actually accept me for me. Um, and so, and I think a lot of what I've dealt with from a mental health aspect has been trying to, has been trying to kind of unfurl and untangle all of that. And is the reason I'm asking, I'm trying to get right underneath the surface about something

that's very important to you, which is this overall sense of mental health in people's lives. But here you are purposely training for very difficult, harsh, rugged circumstances for you to operate well in those environments and and then you did it on the world stage like a four-time obstacle racing world champion is no joke and and i'm wondering if you kind of pull away from the accomplishment because well it was early the real athletes weren't there i was just you know kind of lucky like how do you can you just keep going a little bit about why you are, you shrink from it?

And I do not let me put words in your mouth. I'm just making up a narrative. No, actually you took the words from my mouth. So yes, I think there was, I think there was a lot of that. And I also think this came from a time where I, I wasn't necessarily treating my body the best. And so I look back on these performances and these accomplishments, but also knowing that internally,

I think I was doing a lot of damage to myself physically and mentally and emotionally in trying to get to that space. What space? To get to the space of being at the top. Okay, so it was about an external, it wasn't about being your best. It was about being the best. It was about being the best. And it didn't start that way. What happened was when I won the first one, I was like, wow,

this is super cool. And this is amazing. But then I was terrified of losing that because if I was on top, you have the target on your back and everything became about how do I not lose that? Because I didn't know what losing it would mean for the rest of my life. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening.

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And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out.

Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Let's jump right back into the conversation. I'm so happy that you're bringing that up so clearly. And I do want to know how you navigated that. But I also want to do it in context of your nickname, the queen of pain, help understand, like, what does that mean? The queen of pain? The queen of pain was given to me by, you know, by a journalist in the sport who was kind of covering this as I was a rising star. And it was this concept that these races are painful and I'm doing things that are terribly uncomfortable and diving through freezing water. And I remember getting that nickname and being like, I don't, that's not really how I feel. But at the same time, I was

trying to project confidence. And so I owned it. And other people started calling me that because I was so good at this kind of, you know, type of misery that I then took it on me, I decided, okay, like that is who I am. That is my persona. And I am the queen of pain. And this is what I need to project into the world. Even though on internally, I felt nothing like that. Wow. Okay. This is going to to be. So what's complicated here is that you had an internal mechanism, is the way you felt. Somebody said, oh, she's the queen of pain. And you thought, that's how I want to be seen. And then you would have to project that when it wasn't actually real. So let's do it. Maybe we do this two ways, which is what did it feel like inside? And then why did you want to project something other than what was true?

I felt this internal kind of cognitive dissonance every time somebody would, would say that to me, because everything that I had known from growing up or from who I was, was that there was something wrong with me. I was broken in some kind of way. I was the weird kid. I was, I was, you know, the kid that nobody liked and, you know, and I was weak. I cried a lot. I, I had a lot of emotion. And so then to have somebody say, oh, but she's this stoic badass that's out there conquering all these things. It was everything I think I wanted to be. It was everything I wanted to be, but internally, I don't feel like I had ever been that way. So it felt like a different person entirely that people were making up for me, but a part of me wanted that so bad. I tried to become that. The pain inside of what you're talking about is very different.

So you're projecting the queen of pain, but dissonance doesn't give enough gravitas to that splitting of self. And I'm not using it in a schizophrenic term. I'm talking about the two selves way, which is if you really knew, you'd know that I'm a bit of a mess in here, that I feel very fragile, kind of lonely. There's a fear that is driven. I've felt what it feels like to be pushed to the side and made fun of. And I don't like that feeling, but that's the honest part of me. I have dimensions. There are other parts that are very capable and fill in the blank, but there's a core part of me that has a struggle. Do I have

that part? Right. Cause I want to make sure that I get it right. Yes, you do. And I think for me, it was because I had this narrative around mental health that I had hid for so many years that I didn't want. What was that narrative? So I was that narrative. Yeah. I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder when I was eight years old as a kid. And, you know, it was very debilitating for me and in terms of fears and ruminations and phobias. And I didn't know anybody else at that age who had ever been diagnosed with a mental health issue. And so the idea was hide it, hide it. And then did you get that from your parents or from the, from the psychologist or physician? I think I, I, and this is my parents are absolutely wonderful. So I hate, I don't feel

like I want to knock on my parents here, but there was a narrative of why can't you be like the other kids? And, and I think you internalize that and you feel that. And then I, when I was 16, I was diagnosed with anorexia and I was hospitalized for eight weeks, you know, and then spent the next 10 years, maybe five years or so in and out of treatment facilities. And by the time I'd hit my mid-20s, I was like, okay, that's done. That's not me anymore. I don't want to be the broken individual. And in a way, I think with obstacle racing with sport, it was a way for me to prove to

myself that I wasn't this broken individual. And so I just said, okay, I'm never going to talk about it again. Or it's just, that's not me anymore. So I don't know if I actually sought it out actually, but I was drawn to it and just hiding the old narrative of myself. Okay. So the linking is probably very obvious to you between OCD and anorexia. And I don't think many people might know that linking, but it is actually clear from a structural, chemical, psychological, and behavioral expression. Maybe we can do as a testament to how powerful it is to go within to better understand for this desired state of mental health. Can we just spend a minute and understand your experience of OCD?

And was it more compulsions? Was it more obsessions? Was it truly the combination of both? And what that was like for you? And then we'll go to, if we could, anorexia, and then we'll do the bridging between the two, which I think where the magic happens. Yeah. So my obsessive compulsive disorder, it morphed like a lot of things through ruminations, through obsessions. The best example that I can come up with to kind of give a flavor of, so I was 11 years old. I read

an article in YM magazine about how a woman got pregnant from a toilet seat. And I was convinced at 11 years old, mind you, I had not gone through puberty yet that I could somehow get pregnant from a toilet seat. So I refused to sit on toilet seats. I refused to go out in public. That actually morphed into me not being able to sit on a couch, for example, because a man could have sat there. So the compulsions were to remove the obsessions and make myself feel better. But it became this ever-increasing spiral of fear that left me paralyzed as a kid. And what you just did there was masterful, that you had compulsions to relieve the obsessions.

And the obsession was? The obsession was that I could somehow become pregnant at 11 years old. And the compulsion are the repeated behaviors. They can be internal or external. So you can have internal compulsions or external. And yours were external. Yes. Right? Which is not sitting where a man had been. Correct. Okay. So then did it help you to have a phrase that captured this cluster of behaviors and thought patterns? Or did that become a

quote unquote label that felt heavy to carry around? I don't know at that point, if I was able to even, to even think about that. All I know is that I wanted it gone. You know, I'm an 11 year old, 12 year old girl trying to be normal. And I had, I had no idea. I just wanted to be like the other kids. I just wanted to be able to go spend the night at a friend's house without having to freak out that if I didn't get to sleep, I would die, you know, something like that. So. So that's where, that's where the having the thing and feeling like you didn't want anyone to see the thing first began. And whether it was the parent narrative or your own experience or some combination of everything, to be well understood, like 30 years ago, I don't know exactly how old you are, but X number of years ago, it was much harder to say, hey, listen, I've got this thing.

And my attention struggles or I've got this compulsion or, you know, sometimes I just get really down. It's like 30 days and it's brutal. I know you guys call it depression, but I'm just letting you know it's hard. Whatever the thing is, it's much easier now because we understand that there's an external life and an internal life. And they don't always line up. Matter of fact, most of the time people are not reflecting their honest inner life. And so you understand this in a large way. And so was that the beginnings of like, I've got this private life. Don't look

over here. I'm embarrassed by it. And I'm going to show a different way. Yes, absolutely. Okay. And then what was the linking between OCD and anorexia for you? I think at first we all just thought it was another form of OCD. I started to just become scared of food in general, scared of food. And it wasn't necessarily around gaining weight. I had always been a very slender kid. There was nothing, there was no diet culture in our house. There was nothing that would indicate that I would fall into this. And I first, I think it was just kind of dismissed as, oh, this is just another manifestation

of our OCD until we, you know, I learned, my parents learned actually what eating disorders were. And some of the linkings between the two, there are some brain regions and structures that are active in both. So that's why they thought maybe it was a manifestation. At the same time, there's this control, this need for control that underpins both of them. And oftentimes when we feel like we need control, it's because we feel the opposite, like a bit out of control.

And when somebody needs everything, this is an overgeneralization, but when somebody needs everything in their external world to be just right, oftentimes it's, you know, when somebody needs everything, this is an overgeneralization, but when somebody needs everything in their external world to be just right, oftentimes it's because the inner world feels so messy that like, if I can just get my external world dialed in just right, then I can be okay with this messy internal world and vice versa. I'm overgeneralizing, not making it pathological in any way. And the same could be said for both of your conditions is this high need for control because we feel out of control. And did that hold up for you or was it different? I think so. I think also what became very clear to me was that engaging in ruminations and thoughts and obsessive patterns over food or whether it was

something in the OCD actually made it so I didn't have to face other things in life or that I didn't have to. It was a way for me to channel all of my focus into one thing and to not deal with other things that could be messy, like interpersonal conflict or friendships or anything along those lines. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Okay. So to me, it makes perfect sense why you would go into the environment that you went into, because you would have great expression and training of discipline and control. And matter of fact, a little bit OCD might've done you really well, you know, in your training. It's funny. I've actually said, I've actually very much come to say, thank you for those parts of me that actually brought me probably to where I am. Thank you, but you no longer serve me right now. And I have different ways and I have different tools to cope now.

But I think at that time- It's such a good cognitive behavioral thing, like, you know, or more ACT, like, thank you, not now. Like, I see you, you know. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. Is that a practice you learned in therapy or is you know, therapy, or is that something that you picked up somewhere else? Through therapy, many years of different therapy programs have, have, you know, helped me in many ways. Did you also kind of work through some depression, anxiety along the way as well? Because oftentimes they can hang out with OCD. Yeah, I veer towards anxiety. Luckily, I've never dealt with depression, but definitely the anxiety has always been there. In sport, and I'm wondering in business,

because you've got a big job at a large multinational corporation. If these have also served you well, a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of OCD, and I'm not minimizing these because it sounds like you had deep struggles with them. But once you maybe work through that phase, if you had some remnants that were still there that served you well, and I say that with the highest regard for what it means to suffer, and also the pro-social environments that we tend to find ourselves in that welcome some narcissism, welcome some anxiety, because you're going to work hard and you're going to think you can do something special. And it is about you and some OCD and, you know, like high-level sport, big business tend to have this, you know, these triads, if you will, that don't work well in other competitive environments,

let's say. No, absolutely. I mean, I think I started out my legal career at a large law firm and the idea of, you know, waking up at 4 a.m. after you've gone to bed at 1 a.m. and pulling all-nighters and that is rewarded and you need that drive. And so I think that many people, whether they recognize it or not, if they're exceeding in these kinds of environments or exceeding in sport where you have to have the discipline to train are driven by aspects that could be disordered. But I guess for me, and it's always been that question, I think, especially as an athlete is that, okay, is this disordered or am I just doing what it takes to become the best of the best because everybody else around me seems to be doing it.

So we're normalizing it. And then you just don't know if you actually even have a problem or not. That blurred line is so, so like scary. Yeah. Because if we just followed pop psychology on one of the social media whatevers and all of a sudden you're hearing, oh, I got to hustle. I got to work hard. I got to wake up 4 a.m. grinder.

Well, hold on a minute. You know, like honestly, I think the hustle hard thing is dangerous and not right at all. And I used to think it was right, but I'm not down with that at all. On the world stage, everyone's working hard. If you want to be your very best, there is real work required, but not at the cost of basic foundational health, physical, mental, spiritual, whatever you want to capture it as, not at that cost. You're tearing down the base to build a taller skyscraper of performance. It's just absolutely asinine. It doesn't hold up in engineering. It doesn't hold up in physiology

nor psychology. But it's so slippery because, by the way, only about 2% to 3% of the population in the United States suffer from OCD. Now, when you get into the world stage performances, it looks a lot like OCD in those worlds. Attention to detail and OCD can get confusing at that place. But you know the difference, right? You know the difference, right? You know the difference. Can you make sure that the folk that is listening can understand the difference between those two? For me, I think that it is understanding. What I've always found the line between drive and then disorder is how much of my brain space is this occupying and where does it take me? So if I miss my alarm or if I need to sleep in a little bit and I don't get up at 4am

to train, am I going to spend the entire day spiraling about it? Or can I just say, okay, we'll get do better tomorrow or like, well, and, and brush it off and move on tomorrow. And so I just think about how much of my time and energy is something then taking from me to know that line to like, kind of look at that blurred line. That is the best that I have, but I'm still figuring it out to this day. Oh, I love, I love what you did there. Yeah. And I would say it's probably a similar to alcohol or drugs or just about anything. It's like how much of my brain to use your, my, my thinking time, my, my awareness time is focused on mitigating or maximizing, you know, the pursuit of, or the avoidance of that thing. And again, I talked to plenty of entrepreneurs and or SVPs that like, it looks like OCD.

It, you know, doesn't have to be, but it can look like that. The same is true for disordered eating and eating disorders that many people in the elite performing stages have some disordered eating and eating disorders that many people on the elite performing stages have some disordered eating. Like there's a hyper focus on it. Some have it dialed in and they've done a really nice job. I don't want to paint everyone that's world-class in this way, but can you also open up that line between eating disorder and disordered eating? And maybe you say it's the same language. It's the same framing. To me, I find it the same framing, but it's very hard because you look around as an athlete and you go, well, everybody seems to have a problem. So do I actually have a problem or is this just what it takes to be the best? And so for me, it also looks, I look at how is it affecting my

quality of life and how is it affecting everything else around me? Because when I am super engaged with the disorder, I cannot be engaged in other areas and aspects of my life that are important. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And now back to the conversation. Now looking back, what are some of those aspects that are important to you? connection is huge connection and community. And I think for so many years, all I wanted through sport really was this community and this connection. And I thought the way to do that was to be at the top, was to be the person who was winning, was to be the best of the best. And therefore everyone would revere me and cheer me on. And I would have that. What I didn't realize or what I didn't foresee is that then

that always makes you think that you need to be at the top and that you need to stay there. And so then you're terrified of losing that. And so I went about trying to get this community, this connection in this really weird kind of way until I realized like, I don't need that. I don't need externally to validate myself to be able to have that same thing. What is it that you're looking for above all else? Connection and community. And on the connection piece, is it connecting with self or is it more connecting with others? I think I had to connect first with myself to then be able to connect to others. That is a great way to go because if you do that, if you're ordered in that way, then you do have more control

because you can always control your connection with yourself. Right. And so what are some of the practices that you've used to be more connected to yourself? Lots and lots of self-inquiry, taking a hard look at myself, you know, asking myself the hard questions and figuring out honestly, in terms of, of self, what drives me and what motivates me and where I find purpose in life. And how do you do that work? Do you do it by journaling conversations with people of wisdom, mindfulness? I'm a big writer, a big journaler. I write all my feelings. Anybody who is, as you, as you mentioned, my Instagram, anybody who knows that I put things out there.

But it's always for me to process through it. And writing is my main form. For folks that are working really hard in their life and they look to you and they're like, oh my God, like she's, she's got this huge legal position in, and again, a multinational I'd love for you. I want to open that part up as well. And she's a multi-time world champion. I I'm trying to get to bed and get enough sleep in so that I can just, you know, enjoy my day. And then I look over at Amelia and she's like, she's doing it all. Like, I don't understand how that's possible. So can you maybe

talk through that, talk to that person that's looking at you that says, I don't think I could ever achieve what she's achieved. First of all, I just want to caveat this and that I don't have kids. And so I always like to do that for anyone who is a parent out there, because I can imagine that, you know, there, there is a finite amount of time in the day. And I, I actually hate the, when people say, oh, but there's always, there's 24 hours a day. You can always make time. You can always do this. Like, no, you know, things are going to have to, things are going to have to give, things are going to have to, to, you're going to have to like shift your priorities as you go through life. But I think for me, I find that when I'm really passionate about something,

then I will make that time. When I don't want to do something, I won't make the time. And so I try and think about what are those things that do take a lot of my time that light my fire and drive to that. And so I think that it's not necessarily about, okay, how can I do it all? But how can I get in tune with what's important and focus on those things? How do you speak to the work life balance bit? And, you know, as a senior corporate attorney at Apple and, you know, this very time intensive training set of practices that you have and your commitment to mental health and to have like this sense of flourishing in life. How do you, how do you speak to that balance?

I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect answer. I think for me, what I've had to learn is that at some point my training is going to have to suffer because I need to focus on work or that I can't do everything all the time and that I need to just be understanding that there's going to be a fluidity where certain things are going to take priority at certain points in my life and that I just need to sign off from the other one for a bit of time as well. How do you navigate getting more clear on purpose? Do you, is there a practice that you're anchoring to? Not necessarily a practice, just more, more of the same of what I'm always doing.

It's the writing. It's the seeing what brings me joy. And it's also really the trying of new things. And the, and I hate to use the word mastery on your podcast, that's called Finding Mastery, but just looking for, you know, the pursuit of mastery in different areas that could then potentially give me purpose of what could then drive me, if that makes sense. Yeah. You understand the pursuit of mastery, right? You really understand it. And I think early on, maybe it was actually the pursuit of achievement, which is a different

path. But the pursuit of mastery, there's a warmth and a contouring. It's not well-traveled, so there's not a lot of reference points. But when you spot somebody that's on that path, and again, it's very different than the path of achievement and the path of excellence. They're very, very different. Do you have a community of people or one or two folks that you say, yeah, they're on it too. And these are my people.

I do. And I have made, you know, concrete steps to making more of that community too, and to finding those people who really resonate with me in terms of that path. Okay. So when you think about the next phases, it's a little bit of a jump ball. Like I'm not exactly sure, you know, I've got, um, I've got great awareness. I've got a body of work, both as an attorney and as an athlete, I know what it means to work from the inside out. And it's a bit of an unknown, the next phase. I think what you're describing is really common. And I think most people really are very overwhelmed by that. And, and so how are you navigating that anxiety, especially with a history underpinning

two real dragons that you wrestled? How are you navigating this? Not well, no, I'm joking. Um, I, you know, I, I was that kid, Bear with me for a second. So I was that kid that, you know, knew what they were going to do from a very young age, did all of the schooling to get there, you know, went to college, graduated, taught my class, went to law school, graduated, taught my class, went to a law firm, blah, blah, blah. Of course you did. Of course you did. Yeah. It felt like it was laid out for me. Like I was like, okay, that is the next step. And then I think you hit this certain point in life.

Oh, and then it was like, okay, I won some world championships. And now I'm kind of wrestling with the idea of what it looks to be like a declining athlete, an aging athlete. I don't want to say declining. And I think everybody hits that place where they go, okay, well, what's next in life? And so I'm at that point. And in some ways, I think there's part of me kind of mourning some of the past of what I did have. And then also part of me that's like, wow, I have a blank slate into the future. And what do I do with that? So you counter-rotate the anxiety with optimism. And so you're like hope and excitement about

what's to come next and an optimistic frame. And if you can rest on that idea that you've done a lot in your life and you've figured out a lot and you can carry that scrappiness, that moxie into the next phase of your life. That will work really well, I think. I believe so. I am choosing to believe so because I guess I kind of hold on to this. It's weird. I don't call myself an optimist, but I do hold onto this little thought that

the best is always yet to come. And I don't know what that looks like yet, but, and it's kind of scary to not know. Yeah. A lot of people, I'm pretty, I'm pretty, as an attorney, I'm pretty jaded in many ways. Yeah, engineering and attorneys are trained as cynics and some pessimism in there. So pessimism, just for definition, is like, I don't think it's going to work out. I don't think the future is going to work out right. And optimism is like, yeah, I think something's about to break open here. This is going to be great. Stay in it. This break open here. Like this is going to be great.

Stay in it. This could be great. Something good is about to take place. So optimism versus pessimism. And are you anchoring more to cynicism? Like, um, you know, there's an angle here.

I'm not so sure that this is pure. That's like more cynicism versus optimism. I, I think I, I, I, I err on optimism, but I think there is this, I can look, I can be a cynic about anything. I think that's what I'm trained to do. It's actually undercut a lot of things. So, um, but yeah.

So when you speak to yourself, this is like a cousin to optimism. When you speak to yourself, is that inner dialogue? Would you wish that a cousin of yours or a niece or nephew of yours or any young child would have that same voice that you have for themselves? Absolutely. I think, well, as the optimistic self, you know, I think. No, just however you speak. No- No, just however you speak. No, overall, just however you speak to yourself, you're like, oh yeah, I wish that kids would be able to speak to themselves the way I speak to myself now. At this stage in my life, yes.

I don't think for the vast majority of life, I would never want a child to listen to probably what I had to say to myself. But that's been a lot of years of work to get there to that place. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is

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without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. Because psychology is invisible, the work gets confusing to people. And as one of the folks on the podium for mental health that have done the work, not the achievement stuff, but you've done the work, what does the work mean to you? The work is making it a priority, putting aside time for self-reflection, for mental health, for resources, and above all else, asking for help and recognizing when you're

in a spiral, recognizing when you need others. It was the hardest thing for me, for instance, to at 35 years old, go back into a residential eating disorder treatment program, but I knew I couldn't do it. I think it is the breaking down of all of those walls and those barriers and saying, I need help and I need to fix this. And it doesn't have to be that dramatic, but I think it's knowing when you need to bring in resources and just being humble enough to know when you need to course correct. That to me is a lot of the work. Yeah. And when I think of taking action like that, it's like you are a leader of yourself.

And see if we can crosswalk a couple of things, which is crosswalk leading yourself to be your very best and then leading others in a certain direction, you know, for whatever the quote unquote success is. And so you have an understanding of how to lead yourself well, and you're also a leader in an organization. And so part of leadership is gathering, having a vision, okay, of like what does success as a human look like and what does success as a group of people or organization look like? So you've got this vision, use your imagination to imagine a better tomorrow. And then we have to muster or gather the internal and external resources to make that thing

as close to a possibility as we can. So what are the internal resources that you rest on, whether you're leading yourself or your teammates? I don't know if I have a good answer to that. But I can kind of give a tangential answer to that. I like that you don't know. Let's, yeah. Like let's stay with that for just a moment because look, you're one of the best in the world across multiple disciplines. Like you have an incredible set of internal resources and you say, I'm not really sure. I love that answer. I have struggled. I think in the past when people say, okay, well, how do you do this or what drives you?

And I don't know. I think a lot of it is just innate. There are some things that I don't know why I love to do certain things or why I'm so driven to be the best at a sport. It's just natural. It just, it's natural, you know, it's just drives me there. So there's, you know, like, I think that there's a lot that as much self-examination as, as I've done, there's other parts of me that are just like, well, I don't know. That's just how I do it. That's very cool. So, so would you say one of the internal resources is high drive,

not, not answering where it comes from, but high, a big motor. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And would you say it's general? Yeah. Big motor. Okay, good. So would you say that that rests on a healthy source or an unhealthy source? That would be a healthy source. Okay. At one point it was unhealthy. It sounds like the OCD, the hiding of the second self. I think in some forms it could be. Yeah. Okay. But high, a big drive, high motor. So that's one of your internal resources. It feels like there's a contemplative, a, um, there's a thoughtful part of you that you've cultivated, developed, so that you think. You really do think. You're not just bouncing around the surface. You're really discerning and thinking. Is that an internal resource that you say,

oh yeah, yeah, that's me. I'm a thinker. I would say so. I think there are some people who've said I am too contemplative and that I tend to get like a now, you know, analysis paralysis or that I overthink everything that, but I've always seen it as a strength in myself because there are many things I think that people don't question, but I'm always questioning. Okay. So if we're in a foxhole, like you and I are in a foxhole and it's heavy and we've got a team to figure something out and there's not a whole lot of time. You got to bring your best. I got to bring my best. Are you bringing, look, get on my back. Probably literally you're probably 10 X stronger than I am, but get on my back because I got a big motor. Just like, trust me, I will figure this thing

out. We're going to go, go, go. And listen, I promise you, I'm going to think about this stuff. I'm going to be the one that's solving and thinking deeply. And Mike, I'm going to rely on you to help get me out of that sometimes. But I am a thinker. And oh, by the way, I've got this incredible discipline. It's not just motor, but I've got this incredible

mental toughness and this discipline to stay the course. I can do the effort over time. I've got mental toughness to be able to be disciplined enough. And I'm going to discern and think and make sure that we're finding all of the cynical trap doors that why it couldn't work. But I believe it's going to work. So I'm picking up on four. I'm picking up on four. Okay. Motor, mental toughness, discernment, and, and optimism. What do you think? I think that sounds great. I think that sounds like of the person I would like to be. Yes. That I like to think I am. Yeah. Right. And yeah. Okay, okay, good. And I think that you, I say this with all of the right appreciation for what this means. I think you have just the right of neuroticism that I think you and I together have the right neuroticism levels to be like, oh, we can do some shit.

You know, like, bring it like, like bring it, let's go. Right. Where somebody that is, doesn't have that internal kind of stir might be like, ah, we're going to stay in the foxhole. It's okay. I know bombs are coming. Okay. Good. Yeah. I think just that absolute trust in myself and knowing that. So you have your back. Yeah. Yeah. At this point, yeah. Because I can actually trust myself and what I feel on the inside is also like what I'm able to do on the outside.

It's not these two different selves. It's me as one congruent person. I'll open that up. How did you learn how to trust yourself? Through a lot of mistakes and through a lot of not trusting myself and through a lot of getting myself into bad situations or places, you know, where I've caused myself harm mentally and emotionally and physically. And then being self-aware enough to change those patterns. And then also to know that whatever life can throw at me in the future, I can handle because of everything that I've been through in the past.

I want that for all of the people I love. I wish you could really bottle that, you know, and, and, and figure out how to translate that with maybe, I don't know. I don't know if there's a way to go through it without facing down trauma. I don't know. And so like, yeah, I mean, I think one of the most powerful statements we can make to ourselves is like, I'll figure that out. I don't think so, yeah. And that sense of deep trust of self is so radical. That's one of your resources that we need to add to the bucket. We went from five to seven now. Okay. I went from not knowing any of them to, you know. Yeah, right. That's right.

Yeah, I'm not wrong. Was that modesty or like you just haven't thought about like, what do I take to a firefight? Like, you know, you just haven't thought about your internal resources in that way. I mean, I think it's also just not being good at championing myself sometimes. I don't know if it's modesty. It's just that I have this inherent fear of, quote unquote, tooting my own horn. And so to list out all of the things that make me great is very unfamiliar and not comfortable for me. But I know that they're there. I know that they're there, but I just, I don't vocalize them.

I can use me in this example, but like, where do you start to wobble? So two of us, maybe there's a couple more in the foxhole, in the firefight, whatever analogy we're creating here or metaphor we're creating. And where do you start to break down? Is it, you have such a high trust of self. Do you trust others? others where I start to break down is actually and starting to question myself by taking in too much feedback from others and letting and letting others sway me from I'm because I can be easily swayed even and overriding that inner self-trust, even though I know I shouldn't.

Okay. So it's like too much information and then is it people pleasing? I don't, I don't get that from you, but is that, is that the part that's coming up? I'm not sure if it's people pleasing or just too much information makes it so I start to second guess myself. Okay. So the analysis, the paralysis by analysis and the second guessing, and then, you know, and then I don't know if there's a, it doesn't sound like there's a fatigue that gets in the way, but it's just this, again, I'm going to use this in the wrong way. I mean, not even, I was going to say loop because we mentioned looping early, but this is not the same thing.

It's an analysis to try to understand better, to gather more information, to make sure that you're measuring twice, cutting once type of thing. But it's not the OCD type of loop. Right. Yeah. It's easy to discern that. So analysis, certainly overthinking is one way that we tend to make mistakes. Frustration is another one, especially for people that are hard chargers getting after it. It's like,

I don't get that from you, but frustration, intolerance, that happens for people that have a bit of a negative self-critical voice and they're very decisive. So when you have that need, that desire to make fast decisions and you're critical decisive. So when you have that need, that desire to make fast decisions and you're critical on self and it's going slower than you expected, there can be a frustration. Usually it's taken out of the people, which is where some of the teaming of things fray. So those are a couple easy ones where people kind of wobble, if you will. So do you have, I'll go back to trust one more time, high trust or low trust of others? I would say high trust of others.

So, and then how do you build high trust of others? I, that to me is I lead with vulnerability. I lead with opening myself up that then, that then, you know, hoping for that reciprocal relationship. So I build the trust through, you know, exposing parts of myself, which then they hope to I forget what that's called, that concept of like leveling up in like building, I don't know if you know, in terms of how you build trust with others. But that's mainly how i do it yeah there's there's a bunch of different approaches but one of the ones i think you're talking about is this bidding and when you do something when you take a small vulnerable step

and the other person receives it and it's met that type of bidding or exchange of vulnerability is because you don't have trust without vulnerability. There's something special about what you're offering, which is time or an emotion or whatever. It could be money. It could be a lot of things. But when you bid and it's met, it's like, oh, that felt pretty good. And then when you bid again and somebody misses it, then you would go back and you'd say, oh, well, you know, maybe I didn't communicate properly or they're not safe. I'm not sure. So you try again until you get to the point where it's like, Hey, what's going on? And if you investigate and they're like, oh my God, I totally missed it. Like, I really want to be there for it. Maybe you give them

another chance or, you know, like maybe, maybe they're just not safe. And they're, I don't know, wolf in sheep's clothing type of, you know, nice person. Okay. So that's really cool. So it's what you're talking about is like, uh, getting is the way the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research

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off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Look, I love this conversation. I'd love to ask you like two more things and I've got some quick hits. So the two more is knowing what you know about pushing to the edge and recovering intelligently in your sport life. How can you translate some of those best practices for folks that are, you know, executive athletes that are sitting professional sitters and, you know, great thinkers? How do you help us better understand? I'm laughing because I feel like I'm a professional sitter as well for most of my life. But I, I think for me, I always overemphasize recovery and the rest because

that's where the gains are built. That's where, that's where the magic happens. It's not, it's the pushing hard, pushing hard, but then pulling back. And when you pull back, like pull back really hard. So I think it's, it's drawing those boundaries between if you're just looking at somebody's work life and personal life and shutting off the phone, you know, when you don't need to be, when you don't need to be responding to emails and it's like, it's resting really, really hard when you need to. And that's going to help prevent burnout before it happens. You know, in sport that's injury in the rest of the rest of life, that's mental, physical burnout. I think that's a huge thing for me. And what is your commitment to sleep?

Sleep. I am a big sleep fan. So I'm eight hours a night, at least I block it off. I do not compromise on it at all, unless I'm running through the night for the race. Otherwise, otherwise it's a non-negotiable. And to be clear, we're talking about a hundred milers. Like how many consecutive hours are you running to do a hundred miles? I think the longest race that I've done has been 36 hours. like it's really just it's really hard to understand that you know and i've spent my much of my professional life with quote-unquote extreme pursuers you know and like it's really hard to grok 36 hours and at that point i mean you're eating pop tarts and cupcakes and like, like you're eating the shit that you put in to fuel you at those levels is pretty hilarious. I don't think people would know that. I don't know if you're actually doing pop tarts. Oh yeah, no, I am.

Yes. It's like, we joke about what we consume during that, you know, during those races, but you have to, you know, you got to get in the carbs and like, I've seen people eat entire pizzas as the running. I mean, yeah. All right. So recovery, how dialed in on a regular basis are you to nutrition? That's an interesting question for me because of my history of an eating disorder that I have to be dialed in, but not too dialed in because that can go down a slippery slope of disorder for me. So my basic principle is eat enough always, sometimes eat too much, but never eat too little.

But I don't, I can't get into the weeds on macronutrients, things like that, just because of knowing that leads to a slippery path for me. Yeah. So you're not, you're not looking at a blood analysis or you're definitely not counting calories, but you're, you're not, you're not getting into like, oh, I need more vitamin D or omegas. You're not doing that type of blood. I'm doing a fair amount, especially around bone health because I've had a lot of stress fractures. So I am, you know, I'm keeping track of iron, of vitamin D, looking at the blood analysis, but I'm not doing, look, I'm not doing like CGMs. I had to get away from a lot of the wearables that look at HRV and things like that. Just it's, it's too much information for me. So, you know, there's a fine line. What are you doing for bone health? I think about it for

me and I didn't have some of the trauma you had. So, and there's a different arc for males and females with bone health. So can you teach us about some best practices that you think like, no matter what, whether you're, even if you're a professional sitter, it's being a professional sitter is really bad for bone health, right? So what, what would you teach us as a, as a clear takeaway? Like make sure you're getting this, this dialed in, right? Because as we're getting older, for some of us, it's a, it'll be a challenge. Lifting heavy is the number one thing. So, and I say this as an endurance athlete who hates the gym, I hate the weight room, but I have had to force myself that you got to put, especially your spine, which is where you're going to lose a lot of bone density.

First, you've got to put your spine under load through back squats, through you're seeing a lot of people rucking now, you know, with, with weight. And just, I think that is the number one key. Um, you know, nutrition is, is clearly important and getting everything that you need. But beyond that, I think plyometrics jumping is another thing that they're looking at in terms of impact on bone health and how that's actually helpful as we get older as well. But yeah, lift weights. I'm on my parents all the time about the weight room. Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. Okay. If there was one practice,

psychological mental practice that you would hope people do to be, to live their best selves, what would you point to? I have so many. It's hard to pick just one. You know, this sounds cliche, but I do think a gratitude practice is, is very important and never, never to the point where it needs to be forced. I have gotten to that before. It's like I'm forcing gratitude, but if there's one thing that I come back to day after day, it's that. And I saw on Instagram, your Instagram page, the 2024 is the year of maybe for you. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah. So maybe is a phrase that I have incorporated in my life through therapy, actually. It's actually related to OCD. And when some thought comes into my head and I'm like, oh, God, but if this happens and this and this and this and this and just being maybe, maybe it will happen. Maybe it won't. And knowing as a person who is prone to one to control everything that I can't control everything. And so embracing that uncertainty and knowing like, maybe that's what my life will be like in 10 years. Maybe it won't. I can't know now. And fretting about it now is not going to change the future. Like no amount of worrying

about this right now is going to change that potential outcome. I love that. That's a really powerful cognitive mechanism. And with the OCD in particular, but whether it's OCD or anxiety, in particular with the OCD, did thought interruption or behavior interruption work for you? Like if, for example, like if it's light switching on and off, on and off, you've got to do it like until it feels right. It could be 20 times or it could be two times or it could be 200 times and you end up missing your first meeting of the day because you're on the light switch. Did the stopping of the behavior, the interrupting of that loop, did that work for you? Or were there other strategies that worked for you? just the pulling myself out into an awareness. And so it is, it's a lot of my things are more, are more questions where I say, okay, wait, where is this coming from? And can I pull myself back and pause? There's a lot of pausing before I, before I engage in a behavior. So even if,

even if I know that I'm going to start ruminating and spiraling, can I pause and just say, what are you doing right here now, Amelia? a minute that's both of them create space which is kind of the the loop says oh shit you know like oh god okay let's just get out of the house then yeah right okay you you also wrote that if you wrote that the 30s were a journey of finding yourself and that you hope the the 40s are a journey of celebrating that self. So how are you going to go about celebrating yourself? Celebration to me is embracing all parts of myself, the parts that I thought made me difficult or the parts that maybe I thought people didn't like about me, but realizing that that's what makes me unique and that I'm at a point in my life where I don't want to beat those

parts out of myself anymore. I think it's hard for me because I always want to be a better person. I'm always on this path of how do I be a better person and a friend and a partner? But at some point I can lose myself and not like lose my core self in there. And so the celebrating myself is saying, yeah, look, I'm a crier. I'm a feeler. I'm going to cry about these things. I'm going to feel big emotions. And that's how I show up in life. And that's okay, for example. And I think that that's really my journey now is embracing each part of myself who has brought me to where I am.

What an enjoyable conversation. And thank you for allowing me to be curious with you and, and to step on some trip wires. And if I did and like helping me understand, you know, your psychology, like, thank you for that gift. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Where do you want to point people to follow what you're doing to, you know, be a bit of a leader towards being your very best. Where do you want to guide people? Yeah, I think my main, my main avenue now is really via my Instagram. And then also I writing a sub stack now, which is really everything that's kind of rumbling around in my head. That's where I put out all of these feelings and there's no cohesive theme. It's, it's these inner workings in my head that just come tumbling out.

And what are the handles for both of those? Instagram is ARBoon11 and Substack is AmeliaBoon at Substack.com. It's actually called Race Ipsiloquiter, which is a terrible legal pun. And Boone is B-O-O-N-E. N-E, correct. Yes. I'm so stoked to meet you in this way. And I hope that we find a time to meet in person and what a beacon for hope and strength and insight and discernment and what it means to lead well, to be your very best and to potentially lead others on that same arc. And so I just want to say thank you again.

Thank you. Really appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button

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