Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Overcoming Mental Health Obstacles and Finding Peace | Basketball Coach, Joanne McCallie

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Joanne McCallie, better known as “Coach P” – one of the most highly decorated female college basketball coaches in the country. Over the last 28 years, Coach P has coached at Maine, Michigan State, and most recently Duke.She’s the only Division I head coach to lead two different programs to 30-win seasons with three National Championship game appearances, and she won National Coach of the Year in 2005.Coach P’s success on the court speaks for itself, but there was more that I wanted to explore with her.She recently made her longtime battle with bipolar disorder public – something she didn’t feel comfortable revealing during her coaching career.For those of you unfamiliar, bipolar disorder, or manic-depressive illness, is a brain disorder that causes unusual shifts in mood, energy, activity levels, and the ability to carry out day-to-day tasks.So in this conversation, we discuss Coach P’s experience battling this disorder while leading one of the premier program’s in the nation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Is something wrong with me? And so I've talked about be good to you, be good to you in this process of understanding brain health. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea behind this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery to better understand what is it that they're searching for and how do they see the world and themselves in it? How do they explain events?

How do they prepare themselves to deal with adversity and challenge and pressure? And we also want to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. These mental skills are trainable. And if you want to learn more about how you can specifically train your mind, there's just a quick reminder here to check out the online course that I've created with the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, Pete Carroll, at findingmastery.net forward slash course. I believe that it can materially make a difference in your life. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships,

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cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless,

I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Joanne McCauley, better known as Coach P, one of the most highly decorated female college basketball coaches in the country. And over the last 28 years, Coach P has coached at Maine, Michigan State, and most recently Duke. She's the only Division I head coach to lead two different programs to 30 win seasons with three national championship game appearances. And she also won the National Coach of the Year in 2005. So Coach P's success on the court, it just speaks for itself. But there was more that I wanted to

explore with her. She recently made her longtime battle with bipolar disorder public, something that she didn't feel comfortable talking about during her coaching career. And so we get into why that was the case, what was the downside, what was the upside, you know, what are the internal narratives that she was working through and what were the social pressures that she was picking up on as well. So for those unfamiliar with bipolar disorder, you might recognize the term manic depressive. And so it is a set of symptoms and conditions that is responsible for it, like these unusual shifts in mood. And these unusual shifts are oftentimes incredibly high, and then with an incredible lowness to it as well. So there's a deep anxiety, and then there's a deep depression. That's called

bipolar one, and I'm oversimplifying it here, but there's bipolar two as well, which is called a hypomanic. So not this incredibly high, high, high manic episode, but hypomanic, and there's some depression involved in that as well. And so it's just, you know, the ability to carry out day-to-day tasks during these episodes is really hard, really challenging to is the best way to think about it, in an unhealthy way, way of living and engaging with other people, that it's a deal now. And so I just love that she's talking about it and that she's bringing incredible awareness to the inner life. Even when you look, quote unquote, perfect, there's no perfect, right? But even when you look perfect on paper, on TV,

that has very little to do with the inner life. And so in this conversation, we talk about her experience working with her psychology. And when her psychology was different than everyone else's, how she did it, how she managed it, how she worked through it. And so with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Coach P. Coach P, how she managed it, how she worked through it. And so with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Coach P. Coach P, how are you? Very well. And thank you for having me. Oh, what a treat. I mean, you have, you've demonstrated just a commitment to mastery and in your personal and professional life. So I'm honored to be here with you and have this conversation. One of the reasons I wanted to sit down with you is because your

track record and I mean, incredible success. And then the second piece is that you've got a real history and understanding of mental wellness and the mental struggles of bipolar disorder. So I could not think of a better person to learn from. And so I just want to say thank you. Well, I appreciate that very much. And I appreciate the opportunity to talk about these things. It's so important and so needed, especially at these times. So let's just do a quick little flyover. When you think back across your life, and if you had some chapters of a book, and I know you just wrote your book, but if you had some chapters of your book to capture your life,

what would be the first chapter? And how many years are we talking about in that first chapter? Like zero to? Oh, gosh. That's a really great question. To capture my life, I think it would be a chapter, I'm not sure the length, but it would be one of passion and overcoming fear and finding that space where you're comfortable with yourself and not satisfied, not complacent, but satisfied with your peace of mind. I guess in that chapter, I would, those events of getting to that space. So that would be the end. That would be kind of like the final chapters. Yeah, I guess. And the beginning chapters, looking at a youthful, athletic, excitable, young person, trying to find their way in competitive athletics with the biggest dreams ever of being an Olympian or, you know, any dream that you can imagine national championship and performance and basketball. Okay. Did you come from an athletic minded family or were you the

rare one that had these big lofty physical bases? I was an athletic-minded family and probably the most dedicated to my craft in terms of basketball and finding. And what was nice about it was basketball was not any primary sport in my family. It was simply a sport that I found. I stumbled on. And my parents, different backgrounds, baseball, field hockey, and not at a high level. So that was my background. What were your parents like? Mom is British, 100%. Yep. And dad Italian. So I'm British Italian, which I think is an interesting mix. My mom is very strict, kind of ruled the household

a little bit. Very passionate and dedicated. Dad, a little bit more laid back, Navy pilot, able to handle great pressures, you know, flying. Hold on. Nobody said a pilot's laid back. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, the correct demeanor. Correct demeanor. Yeah. Okay. All right. So he didn't get phased very often.

You were saying laid back. Yeah. They tend to be able to manage a lot of information and not become overwhelmed with it. And so did he ever deploy? Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah. We had many deployments of six months. That was part of my childhood.

And the missing father piece at times, definitely. And what did he fly? P3s and then L-1011s later. Okay. I don't know what an L-1011 is. It's a big plane with a lot of people. Yeah. I know the, I thought it was CODS,

no, I'm blanking on the right name, where there's like big people movers. Okay. So let's go back to the missing father. And how did that impact you? I think it made me yearn for the mentorship of males in general. Now, of course, as I was growing up, being a Title IX baby during that period of time, I didn't have as many female role models anyway. I mean, they just weren't there for me just because, I guess. So I found myself looking at coaches and teachers and mentors, but definitely gravitated towards male mentors. And I think that was obviously filling something I was lacking. Whereas my mother provided the female strength and really gave me a solid base from the female perspective.

Are mom and dad alive? No, they're compliments for each other. Definitely compliments. Where my mom was extremely intense, my dad was, again, kind of an even keeled, great sense of humor. They balanced each other. When my mother was too intense, my father, through humor, was able to kind of help me cope with some of those demands. And my mom was so passionate. So a lot of my passion came from my mom.

What question did you hear me ask? I heard you ask, are they alike? Alike, yeah. Yeah, no, no, it's good. So I asked, are they alive? And you said, are they alike? Yeah said are they like yeah no no because i was really interested in your response but you're saying that they're they're more compliments than like yeah but are they alive um sadly my father passed during the writing of the book

on october 18th um yeah it's hard to believe october 18th and mom is still doing well and approaching 80 and, you know, missing dad after being together for 40 years. Where are you in your grief process? I think I'm getting better with acceptance. I'm quite amazed at the wave of grief. The fact that my father will never read my book, um, the best reader in the family by far, I, I'm sort of amazed by that and spiritually and, you know, through faith, I feel like, yeah, he's going to read it. I mean, he, he knows it. Um, he would have gotten a kick out of it and he would have said it in a humorous way, like, Oh, you know, Joe, wow, this is so interesting. You know, you would have it.

And also there's some really critical parts in the book where my father shows leadership. And so, so anyway, we've, we've dealt with that. And it's, but again, it's like a wave emotionally, certain things, Barry Manilow songs are really tough for me, Johnny Mathis and Barry Manilow. That's dad all the way. Cause those songs bring up memories of dad. Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. The grief process is,

I think it's one of the hardest. I mean, there are, there's complicated grief and then there's living with nightmares, um, you know, which are which I want to be really sensitive to what that means. At the same time, there are very few things that rival the griefing process. And I haven't lost a parent, so I'm speaking naively about what that means. Your mental health has been at the center of a very important part of your life publicly, and you're helping millions by doing what you're doing. So bipolar has manic and depressive experiences. And with the passing of your dad, does it,

is there any concerns that you would be triggered by that to go into an episode? Oh, without, without question, losing a parent is the single most difficult thing I've ever dealt with. And I have wonderful doctors and a great psychiatrist and therapist and sleep deprivation, sleep problems. There was a point in time where the songs of my father were going through my head. And it was interesting. The thing I did to combat that was actually quietly listen to the songs while I lie down, rather than try to fight the fact that this was a little bit strange and affecting my sleep. I would lie down, rather than try to fight the fact that this was a little bit strange and affecting my sleep, I would lie down and then listen to the songs very, very quietly. And it was sort of a soothing thing. So I think grief is, you know, we have natural emotions, bipolar or not, you've got natural things to go through that are real and not necessarily an episode. And so I, I, I guess

my answer would be, I went through real grief. I had a little bit of ups and downs, but not an episode. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So, um, what a fascinating, I don't know if it was on purpose or accidental process to it, what you're doing by lightly listening to music before sleep instead of trying to fight it and kind of push the dragon back into the dungeon, you know, or push the monster back into the closet. stress inoculation. And so you're inoculating yourself with a low dose by inviting a song at a low level while you're naturally sleepy. So then you became in control as opposed to kind of beating back, which is just, it's not advised. So was that an accident that you created that or is that with some support and guidance and suggestions from wise people? Actually, it was a learned response, which when I was a child, I would miss my father and have difficulty at times. So I would go to sleep with the 70s music. I know all 70s music. And I almost know all the words because I would go to sleep to those songs very quietly. And I almost know all the words because I would go to sleep to those songs very quietly.

And I did that as a child in high school. Look at that. Okay. So something you learned as an adaptation early on for Missing Dad, you're bringing it full circle now in a way to Miss Dad again in a healthy way. Yeah. And I love the way you explain that. I never would have come up with those word choices, but it definitely was therapeutic and incredibly therapeutic. And I didn't have to do it for a long time. I got into finally being able to rest comfortably.

Okay. So that was intuitive then as a kid yes and i've talked about that a little bit um to to different people and yes it was intuitive as a kid and it was an escape mechanism um i wasn't i wasn't escaping some incredible trauma i was escaping perhaps a whole hole dealing with something missing you know i had the same thing. What age are you talking about? I'm talking about mostly through a junior high, eighth grade. Me too. So my dad traveled a bunch and was gone often. And then when he was home, I didn't feel connected. And so I relate to that missing, that kind of hole, that emptiness. And so how did you work with that? I worked out really hard. I committed to my craft. I was extremely dedicated. And when my father was

home, he would rebound for me. He would let me get upset and swear. And probably one of the most beautiful memories I have is when my dad was furloughed for a little while. And he was home for my entire junior year of basketball. And that's when I became a highly recruited athlete. That's when I had my best season. He took me to lunch every game day. We talked about things. And he was always, again, unique about it because there was never a pressure.

And if I did some kind of shot, some reverse shot or bank shot, he would say, well, that was so neat how you did that. You know, he was, he was really interested in the craft. I mean, he knew the game, but he thought, wow, you can really handle that ball well. So he had terms that were just so gratifying for me to listen to. They were non-intense, very loving, and all, and also the smile on his face. Like, how did you, I hit a game tying shot once to go into overtime. And he said, how did you do that? You know, and so dad provided that kind of release, broader thinking about the sport. And he validated you as a creative expressor, you know, in a way that maybe he didn't know how to do.

But it sounds like he was looking at the creator in you, the creative part of you, and was curious about that. You know, the research is really clear. Now, what your dad did wasn't mechanical. And so when people read research and they're looking for a trick, it doesn't work. But if it comes from the right place, that's what the research is suggesting. If you come from the right place, and because of the intensity that's coming from the front seat. And it's either silence or it's pissed offness or it is frustration or it's that slick kind of questioning that is actually born out of anxiety or fear that you're not going to be good enough. And so it's a dangerous place for many kids. And this is why most kids leave sport. But the research is this. If you ask your kid or you say to your kid, I love watching you, go for it.

Man, I love watching you try to figure it out. Gosh, I love watching you. It's just such a joy seeing you out there, you know, just doing your thing. The kids go, oh, I matter more than the thing that I'm trying to do. So it drops the shed of trying to impress, whether it's mom or dad at an early age, and then others later, and gets right down into like, oh, the dignity of me is present, even when I'm trying to do something that's challenging. It sounds like your dad gave you that gift. Oh, yeah. And also gave me the compliment of, this is going to sound a

little bit too much, but being in awe of like, I like him literally saying, I don't think I could do that. You know, just like I said to him when he was a pilot, I said, I don't know if I could do that. Dad fly 320 people across the Atlantic ocean. And he said, oh sure. You know, he'd say, oh sure you can, but I can tell you, I don't think I can do what you do basketball wise. So there was again, a sort of a, a referent power that he bestowed on me. I love this. How much of this part of your relationship that you learned from your dad is present in the relationships you build with the athletes that you've coached over a couple of decades? I think a fair amount. I mean, both parents, yes, but also with dad. Again, that steadiness of, I am very calm under pressure. I learned how to be a time and score coach. Love the idea

of that situation. You know, the timeout, the play calling, the creativity it would take. And I think a lot of that came from having a calm space, you know, as you've talked about, breathing from the right space and coming from that. And again, I think my father truly, he exemplified that and always thought things were no big deal. Like when I asked him about flying, did he get nervous? Was he concerned? You know, he had had some different issues on airplanes. And no, he would just say, no, I just kind of enjoy it and do it. So there was a peacefulness to his craft.

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That's a big one now. I mean, think about that number. So you were rolling. You didn't know losing. You didn't come from that place. And I want to get to like how you did it and your insights and practices on how to bring the best out of people. And I am really curious. This is I'm setting up this question. I'm really curious if you left a shine of regard on them or if early days there were more tools in the mechanics and the machine of winning. And so if we had in those early days, the first 182 games where you won 150 of them, and we had, let's say 15, small little room of your folks, what would they say about you? Oh, they would say as a young coach, I was a head coach at 26, that I definitely was a driver, very passionate, very demanding. Sometimes could obviously upset them with my challenge and future image that I saw in them. I didn't articulate it as well, certainly as a young coach. And I don't like the word you used relative to it, but it's true. Tools, you know, as a means to getting to proving

oneself. I guess, sadly, at that time, you're trying to prove yourself. Of course, that's a more singular concept. And it does engender this idea that the players you're coaching are sort of the means to getting there, you know, versus celebrating the efforts. And my early teams, I was by far toughest on them. But what's ironic is those are some of my closest relationships, not just from time away, because they're, they're obviously older than my other former players. But, you know, you think back and you, you kind of cringe when you think about yourself as a young coach trying to prove yourself and, and overstepping here and there. I mean, I definitely have players that would sing my praises and I have players that would not and say that she pushed me too far. So on the support challenge mechanisms,

right on that axis, I should say you are much more on challenge than support. I think I was more on challenge, pretty good on individual support, you know, smart enough to seek out individuals. But only later in life did I really understand how you could individually motivate a, in a team sport. So I would say my, you know, the team components critical as you know, but I got better at the individual motivators and how they were different and how it's okay to be different in terms of trying to pull the group together but I just I again I look back at that time and you know I was supposedly a very good. Like slow down. Like don't try to, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. Don't try to get it all at once. Watch your tone on occasion.

You are British Italian. I did swear in there, but never to a person, you know, to the group, like at halftime, if we weren't getting it done. Reflectively, I battled with that, the swearing thing. Part of it was actually natural. I guess I had heard some words around the household or somewhere, but then part of me never wanted to do it. And so I, I, all my career, I kind of fluctuated with this authenticity. That's so critical. And then I had a player tell me once it works better. If you swear, sometimes it gets our attention. And I thought, Oh, that, you know, that's kind of interesting. But as an older coach, I've changed a lot. You know, 28 years is a long time. Yeah.

A curse word, because it's taboo, socially taboo, it will shift physiology for most people. You know, it's like, oh, the authority figure did that. Oh, you know. And so it's like, well, there must be some intensity behind it. So purposely, it can shift physiology. But, you know, it's a it's a cheap trick right and um but if you need someone to sharpen up or uh sharpen their focus it can definitely work so can uh eye eye rolls so can glare so there's lots of cheap tricks you know but um but it sounds like it was coming from a place of passion. And you there's

some sort of moral ethical thing, not that's not quite right, social more that you did, you were crossing that you didn't necessarily find favorable, that maybe in your older years, you're like, or your older coaching years that you're like, Yeah, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Yes, that's it. I, I came to that later in coaching, too, because I was surrounded by a lot of swearing. I mean, if you see the guy side of things, and I don't know what goes on in those football locker rooms. I mean, you do. I don't. But I kind of wonder about that sometimes, especially since I've been told by several, you know, that's the language I understand. You know, you're talking my language by getting in

my face in that way, just like another young woman would say, you know, that's, you know, that's not for me, you know, but you go back and forth with it. And I know I'm a different coach, much different than I was back then. What drives me a little crazy is when I see a coach talk to other coaches in one way and then talk to athletes in a completely different way. And it feels so phony. And so like that part of for me and I think athletes might not know, but I think that they can probably suss through it. And because they don't see the other conversations the tone and tenor and cadence of language and choice of language but that drives me absolutely nuts like if you're gonna be you is my point and so how else are we gonna teach others to be themselves

if we're putting on some sort of i don't know know, charade. Okay, but let me go back to demands. What were you demanding out of people? Always effort, intensity, focus, demanding that they be present-minded. Whatever was happening off the court was something different. Demanding that they play off each other, respect each other, try to make each other better, you know, get beyond individual play, understand the past before the past that made the great play. I think that that was the good thing that I was never really off base relative

to what I was demanding. So if I crossed the line and tried to change the physiology, which is such a cool way of saying that relative to using profanity in some way, it was directed authentically and in the right space of what I was asking for relative to the intangibles. Okay. Who taught you that that's what those are the right levers to demand? Who taught you that those nine that you just listed were the right ones? Well, part of it's your inner self combined with what you learned from mentors. So I had a mentor at Auburn. We went to a couple of final fours, you know, national championship, a higher level of performance.

And I could learn from him relative to that kind of presentation of demand. And I'm a military, you know, my dad was in the Navy. And the gentleman I worked for at Auburn, Joe Champy, was also, he was Army. I had this real sense of military and duty and honor. And that was another thing I tried to pull from, extrapolate from the women is a sense of duty and honor in terms of how they serve. But that also made me more comfortable, I believe, with some pretty strong intensity, you know, pretty high demanding situations. Okay. Because the, in the calm of this conversation, you are demanding things that are in their control. Yes. And so that's actually psychologically really healthy to have really high standards for the things that are in your control. So I think

I want to go, I want to toggle between demand and standards in just a moment and then go back to the values that were true. And so you're demanding of those values. What did you want them to be in service of? Each other? Or was it for the shirt, for the brand, for womanhood, for athletics, for humanity? What were you laddering up to for being in service? In service, I think sort of like concentric circles building out. I mean, service within relative to their own peace of mind and what they brought to themselves.

So there had to be a peace or a balance amongst themselves. And then, of course, the next circle being the team and how they would fit and blend with the team dynamics. And what we do, we do to the team and how they would fit and blend with the team dynamics. And what we do, we do to the team. One of my favorite quotes, what we do, we do to the team. And then, of course, broader relative to coaching staff and folding in mentorship. Mentorship matters, very important there. And then getting more broad is our place as female athletes of power, women of power.

And you're seeing that in this day and age right now, lots of power behind women and how they felt about as women competitors. And then of course, one larger circle is relative to, can we affect others through mental health games, melanoma games, can we have a grassroots approach and actually affect lives off the court? Wait, what is mental health and melanoma games? What is that? Oh, I'm sorry. To go to a point of trying to have a grassroots ability to raise money and awareness,

I had a student athlete's mother die of melanoma. Okay, got it. So trying to take what we had, life experiences, sometimes trauma, and fold those into community support and awareness. So using sport as a metaphor, using sport to teach. But that's like the broadest circle. It takes a while to get to that space. Okay. What are you, I mean, what an extraordinary life you have. You dealt with cancer, right? Definitely understand winning.

You've done it in a way that has grabbed people's attention. And you've also raised your hand to like, now I've actually got some inner struggles here and I'm not going to keep these private. How long did you battle with bipolar? And I don't know if it was bipolar one, bipolar two, psychothymia. What is the official cluster of symptoms we're talking about? I was diagnosed at 30 years old. Three zero. Yep. Three zero and bipolar one, bipolar two. And so I've worked with it. I had my episodes, one manic, one depressive while coaching at the university of Maine. I struggled with taking

medication and accepting my, my diagnosis. Very much so, very much so. And a lot of that is in the book. I want people to know that that's normal and that, you know, the fight or flight situation, well, you kind of do both, you know, you fight and then you try to get away from what people are saying is your truth. So that's kind of how it occurred. And then through my life in coaching, I've been very committed to a standard of care. So I have not deviated and been able to coach probably at my best self at Michigan State, coaching for a national championship in five years, you know, coming to Duke championships, elite eights and things of that nature. But I never would have gotten to Michigan State nor Duke, if the main women hadn't expressed a certain loyalty to something that 25 years ago, I mean, you couldn't utter the words. And if you said bipolar or mental health,

somebody might say, what are you talking about? Yeah, right. And there was such a taboo and it was like the word crazy was attached to inner struggles. And so, okay. So just for folks that might not know, bipolar one has much more intensity with the ups and downs. Bipolar two is, there's mania, but it's hypomania and there's depression from a couple of different ways, mild, moderate, and severe. but it's hypomania and there's depression, um, from, you know, a couple of different ways, mild, moderate and severe, but it's the mania that's the differentiation. So when you are manic and to be manic, you need to have those symptoms of, you know, um, we can get into some symptoms in it, but for three weeks or more, like it's fast pace. It is, you can't get your words out fast enough. Why is everyone so slow? It's this

grandiosity that comes with it. And there's incredible risk-taking that's associated with it. So did you find yourself, did you rob a bank? Did you find yourself in jail? Did you steal a car? It doesn't look like you got a neck tattoo, but like what, what, what, what happened to, to you or what did you do during your manic episode and was there just one or have you had more than one i've had one and it was it was it hit itself quite well being a coach you're very organized aggressive moving at a fast pace so people are just like what happened to coach p it was like that you know You know, and I'm an enthusiastic person anyway. So for a couple of weeks there, I mean, it was just a matter of, this is Coach P.

We're excited. Great things are happening with the program. We were signing terrific recruits. We were projected to be an excellent team. But the problem was during this time, I wasn't getting any sleep. And it was one year after I gave birth to our oldest, my daughter, and that complicated things greatly, I feel. And so I was the TV was talking to me. I mean, then it crossed over. And I'm so grateful that no, I did not rob a bank. I did not. So many women are incarcerated today. Women in particular that did something because of their own mental health, not being diagnosed, and they did rob a bank and now they're paying for it through incarceration. A lot of these things are very

important to me. And so I was fortunate. I was pretty funny, pretty active. I fooled a lot of people. And it was my very, very small circle, husband and a couple of friends that were like, Joanne, you're, this is a little bit out of bounds. You're talking quickly. You're, and then of course, when I was on the phone with a recruit, telling the recruit that the TV was talking to me and the recruit. Okay. We crossed the line. Yeah. Okay. We had to cross the line there, but, but fortunately nothing like overly aggressive. It wasn't like I was at practice yelling at people and crazy. I was, I was very focused. I could, I could do a lot. The plays were in my head. I was waking up at night, writing down plays and the plays were very good. It was, can you imagine if you didn't have basketball? I don't know. Yeah.

You know, and, and that's where, um, you know, that's why three weeks is really important because it can look like somebody is hopped up on amphetamines, you know, and it can look like maybe a thyroid issue too, or it can look like maybe a thyroid issue too, or it can look like, it can look like other things. So this is one of the reasons it gets misdiagnosis, but you need to have a manic episode for three weeks or longer. And then there also needs to be some sort of depression involved in it as well. And so, but did you say you like, there was a downgrade to bipolar two later in life well um because of the nature of both my manic and depressive it basically got wrapped into one because when you're able to go

back and forth like that uh bipolar one and two it's it's almost one in the same for me personally but then because my depressive episode was pretty dramatically different. Intense. In intensity and of course, in its description of what it was. I mean, it's pretty extraordinary. The brain could oscillate in that way. The brain could move in that direction. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Anxiety and depression are remarkable, maladaptive ways to deal that our brain, there's two types, right? Is that one, some people earn anxiety because they just think and think and think about things that are scary. And some people earn depression. They just think and think and think about things that are sad and I'm oversimplifying suffering. And then, but some people have

a genetic predisposition towards it. And the wiring predisposes them to a manic or the wiring and the chemistry predisposes them to mania, hypo or full manic episodes and same with depression. And so for depression, I think it's a moment, I haven't actually talked about this ever, but like, do you want to list off some, some of the symptoms that you experienced in depression? And maybe I can backfill that you need to be, to have a diagnosis of depression, you need four of a list of about, I think it's 10 symptoms. And then, man, you need it for an extended period of time. And then you go, right.

Okay. Is it mild, moderate or severe? But what were the ones that you. And then you go, right. Okay, is it mild, moderate, or severe? But what were the ones that you had or that you worked, had to struggle through? For me, it was I couldn't read the paper. You couldn't do the things that you normally could do. It's not, it wasn't that I was so down in the dumps. I was able to get out of bed, but the way I had to think about getting breakfast in the morning or reading the paper and the words making sense. And, and then also all those plays that I

knew made up or had in a manic episode, I couldn't even write them out. You know, you lose ability, the cognitive ability to think. And it's, and it, and I mean, it's, it's a stunning reversal, stunning reversal, very quiet. You're very, you're very withdrawn and quiet. Again, you can generally pass it, try to pass through it, but much harder to do in front of my student athletes, the depressive side, much harder than the manic side. And, and I believe that kids, meaning your team, kids, student athletes, they know, like they know everything, but that's the thing. There's nothing going to get, you're not going to slide anything by a team. Absolutely. They're, they're trying to get to the truth too.

And if you're going to mask it and you know, for the most part, most people are masking much because the fear of rejection, the fear of letting others down, the fear of looking bad, like there's a big mask that people definitely put on. And it's one of the sicknesses of our current society is the highlight reel that we're showing as opposed to the truth. But that's for a later discussion. But to your point, like, yeah, people saw right through it. And so yours didn't come with agitation. Yours came with a low energy, apathy, brain fog that was difficult to focus um and again you've got to rule out some

other stuff first hypothyroidism sleep disorder there's some other stuff you got to rule out but you probably had a sense that no no this is like a this is a really low low yeah i did and i i had done that terrible thing of going off my medication I am a great example of somebody a student former student athlete I mean my body is my temple I did not want foreign substances in my body there was a point in time where I thought if I had to take medicine then then why would I want my body or brain you know what why do you want something that's not authentic and so after the manic episode and taking medication and getting to truly my best self I then determined and self-diagnosed myself that I was okay and also knew that I couldn't

tell anybody that I was going off my meds because people would react to that, including my doctor. So I just stopped taking my meds. And, and I also thought that I could handle a manic episode if it were to swing back around. So I'd be okay. But then this depressive episode descended on me. And so at that point, I'm wanting help. I'm not in denial. And I'm like, this is the other side. This is what they've talked about that I wasn't listening. What has been the greatest cost for you that you've experienced? And maybe there's a memory that comes up when you say this is what you know like this has been a moment that really I'm still struggling to sort out and

part of it is because of the state I was in but part of it is also because I didn't know better and I made these mistakes like what are some of the memories that come up for you? Yeah, they're pretty lined up. My worst memory is that I lost a child. I was pregnant, not knowing I was pregnant. And there was a medication complication due to the fact that I went off my meds. And so that was obviously very traumatizing. I write about it in the book because one of my student athletes is being taken to the WNBA and I have to go to a press conference after finding out that I've lost my child. And those two are going in concert within 45 minutes of each other. And so that was obviously enormous trauma.

And of course, trauma that builds upon mental health things is more trauma. You know, trauma can elicit mental health issues, but then it can build on. And then the other things are a little bit more simple and they're not life or death. And it's certain conversations. And truly, I can count them on one hand, but that I would want to talk to that person and take the conversation back. I was just a little bit on edge, a little bit, not clear thinking, not overly and not in an episode, but still I think because of my diagnoses that it was part of that.

It was still part of it. And it might've been an impatience, a lack of understanding or reaching too far psychologically because I feel like I know a fair amount of it just because I've had to have the therapy for so many years. So I have those memories with those student athletes. And of course I have that memory with my family. What was the switch that happened for you to say, I'm going to hide this? In the episode, you're trying to hide it in some respects, like the medication piece or whatever, but the shame and the guilt socially, the perceived, at least not be good enough because of something like this was louder back then, but still it's loud now. And so what's changed in you? How did you

get to a place where you're like, no, listen, I'm going to talk about like the truth of things and me included. I think I've thought about it the entire time. I knew I wasn't healthy enough to talk or write about it for some time. Compartmentalizing is obviously something coaches can do. And I know you understand that better than anybody. We can kind of park it and get to the space we need to get to. And that's exactly what I did. At 39, we went to a Final Four, played for a national title at Michigan State. And I was thinking that that public stage might be a great place to talk about it, especially since we've had so much success, you know, you're feeling like people can't really attack it because you sort of, you know, you sort of had success anyway. But I was counseled against that. And I think wisely because my options would have been limited in terms of my

professional growth. And then when Duke recruited me, obviously, well, not obviously, I was, I was admitted to Duke. And so going back to Duke was kind of a neat thing. And so I don't think anyone would have recruited me if I had been open and come out about it. So then getting to Duke, having a 13-year career, lots of stuff, lots of good, bad, all the things that goes into it. I just got closer and closer to this idea that I've got to write this story. Then the final thing that hit me was a teammate of mine's daughter took her life. She was misdiagnosed as an alcoholic. She was sent to an alcoholic treatment center and she took her life while there. And so I was in the, at the funeral, at the service. And at that point, I just kind of, I felt the same feeling that I felt during the national

title run when it was clear that we were going to beat Tennessee, that tingling feeling from your feet all the way up through your body. I received that in the church spiritually, sort of in this message of Joanne, how long are you going to hold this? When you can make a difference, when you can talk about these things, and maybe people will listen. And if you just say one life, I mean, just think about your life. If you say one life, then you've, I mean, I can't think of anything more honorable. And the way that you can do that is by saying, hey, listen, you're not alone. I want to tell you my story. Yes. Yes. Stories over stigmas, as I like to say,

you know, mentorship matters. I'm a coach. I want to coach. I'm coach P for life. It's not like I'm changing hats. I love coaching, but I also feel like I could talk to anybody, a professional athlete, a high school student, anybody about mental health and trying to allow them to seek acceptance and kind of ride through stories and understand that things are going to be okay. And there is a process, another hashtag process to peace. I'm a big believer in the process and not focusing on outcomes, not driven by the fan mentality, you know, what other people think of you, but rather than, you know, how you feel and what your process is to growth. And at the same time, people really beat themselves up with this diagnosis. You know, where did I get it?

How did I get it? Is something wrong with me? And so I've talked about be good to you, be good to you in this process of understanding brain health. Oh, there you go. So let's talk process to peace. Is that what you, is that the last word you use? Yeah. It's kind of funny a coach i love the final four so i came up with four hashtags because you know final four and um the stories over stigma mentorship matters um be good to you and process to peace and that means process to peace of mind and brain health and you know i have to do things for a reason and coaches do things for a reason. I'm not, I'm not superstitious, but there is a way you prepare for a game.

There's a way you prepare to address your team. Again, not superstition, but a process. And so everything I do with mental health has to kind of gear into sports metaphors. It just, it makes, it makes me happy. It makes me enthusiastic. And I think people can see into sports metaphors. They can see that a little bit more clearly. Okay. Let's unpack the process for peace. What are some of the things that go into that for you? Well, it's, it's actually three component parts. It's, I call it the eye test. You know, eyes don't lie. I know you know this, eyes don't lie. But there's also the eye test with a capital I. And of course, that's intensity, immediacy, and intelligence. And the eye test, if you can pass

that eye test in your daily life, or in sport, that's what betterment is all about. And that's what process is all about. And so even when I was coaching, win or lose, we kind of treated it the same to a degree, which was to find the process of betterment. And so we would rate ourselves on our immediacy as a team. The team could really kind of feel what that was immediately, how quick we were to react. Intensity, that's kind of easier, you know, how much ball pressure we applied or defense. And the intelligence component, turnovers, how did we take care of the ball? How did we pass to each other?

Often failing the intelligence part more than the other two. So using the eye test the way I see it is a way to move through the process. And I do believe that can be applied anywhere, not just in sport. So good. Okay. So process for peace, the eye test, and the first one is intensity, meaning be here now. Yeah. But also how much, you know, how much pressure can you bring to the equation of your physical effort, the intensity of your mind focus. Yeah. The intensity kind of spills out and then IQ tests. I mean, the intelligence piece is again,

your decision-making and how thoughtful and, and, and how, you know, how do you respond to certain situations? And immediacy is how quickly you change from thing. I mean, let's say bad things happen. How quickly, you know, there was a fumble in football. Well, how immediate are you to switch over, you know, and get, you know, defense, you know, offense to defense, how immediate is your mind going to switch with that adversity? Okay. How do you wrestle or think through the concept of psychological agility? I think it's, you know, that emotional agility, psychological agility. I think agile is a term that athletes get pretty well. You can have them practice their agility. I think agile is a term that athletes get pretty well. You can have them practice their agility and all those, you know, all those drills. And so if you can get a space where your brain and

your mind, you know, can have that kind of, if you can get a picture in someone's mind about what agility really is, and then you've got to practice it like anything else. Go back to the 10,000 hours, you know, for mastery, right? You've got to practice agility through how you think and assessing how you do. And I think that creates this concept of your mind being able to process and move through immediacy, intelligence, and try to incorporate those together. And I think that's where you get agile, agile, not only physically, but try to incorporate those together. And I think that's where you get agile, agile, not only physically, but more importantly, agile mentally. If you were to help a room of business people become more agile.

I would first ask them to think about what they are most afraid of. You know, what are they most afraid of? What, what really gets your anxiety? What really gets your breathing up to your heart space? You know, the public speaking thing, what really gets you there? And I would ask them to think about it, maybe write it down. Or if they were able to talk about it. I mean, some people like to talk about what they're afraid of. But I think agility, it's like a rubber band. I mean, you've got to be able to increase it and contract it and, and you can't expand it without expanding your mind and getting past your fears. And the fear factor is huge. And so and then you can contract it a little bit for

some comfort, you know, to get back to what's more comfortable for you. But it's that expansion and that pull that people don't really want to do. And so I would ask them, like a rubber band, I would ask them to work on their agility by being able to pull apart what they're afraid of. Okay. The science that supports what you just said is really strong. So you're asking them to get out into the edges of something that's uncomfortable for you. And therein lies, I see it more, less like a rubber band, but more like a balloon. When you blow into the balloon, it expands, and then it can contract. But when you blow into it again, it expands easier. And that is like another kind of mixed metaphor that there's more space inside the, in the balloon and with more space, then you can be more agile. You could play a little bit more, you can access creativity and other people and whatever, whatever, whatever. And so I see it that way, but the rubber band definitely holds up as well. The balloon is better because when you initially start to blow a balloon,

we've all struggled with starting. Yeah, it's hard. Once you blow that balloon up, I mean, it just, then once you get past a certain point, it blows up more easily with air from, you know, from within. And so I kind of like yours better. We'll see. We're being agile. We're being agile right now. Okay.

So let's go back to standards and demands. So you're demanding a list of things that are a hundred percent under their control, which is supporting a sense of autonomy, supporting a sense of mastery. That's a mastery climate, actually. Did you have standards that you had set or was it a demand for more, better? Because like the horizon or the frontier is still out there. How are you toggling between those two concepts, standards and demands? Well, I think standards, of course, you have standards relative to training, you know, bench press, pushups, you have standards. Those are very easy for everyone to understand. The big standard is the future image of the individual. And that's the standard that

a coach often has over the individual. In terms of what I see in the future for this person, that's where the push and shove comes. Because somebody's own vision of themselves is often quite a bit smaller than some you know somebody else's particularly a coach's vision and so standards there and how they how you push those standards for that particular athlete is the is the trick and it's it's often getting over their own fears and their brain limit what they limit themselves to thinking. So standards come, I think, in a variety of packages and some are more easily accountable than others. I mean, I know exactly, I can hear that, you know, exactly how you do this. And this is the art. And I get asked all the time, well, so how do you help create a vision for somebody or how do you you know how do you capture what you think is possible for somebody because you and I can both

be wrong and I'm sure we've been around plenty of times overestimating even underestimating but usually as an optimist that sees potential in people I'm going to make an assumption for you and me here both is that we'll overestimate or we're seeing what could be at a very high standard. I'm sorry, at a very high potentiality. Now, whether that can be expressed or not is another question. And potential, I have such a complicated relationship with it because it's the thing that can really get people turned upside down because living up to potential can be overwhelming. But if we're going to hold each other's hands and lock arms and commit to that adventure to see if that thing that we both think is true or could be true can take place, then we're not alone in it and it becomes more of a grounded approach. And so I think, let me just answer how I do it. And I'd love to see if you can push back and say,

that's, you know, there's a better way. Let me show you. Is that I would just use all of my might and my ability to be fully present and watch and observe and get snapshots of waiting for the snapshot of brilliance for somebody. And that can be physical or emotional or psychological and sometimes all three, but I'm using all of my might to be focused, to capture the snapshot of brilliance. And when I see it, I go, Oh, what if that would take place more often? What would that look like? Oh, that's the image. And then I share that with the thinker or doer. And then that's where we calibrate action. You show them in the space that they really didn't recognize. We've all talked about the positive, negative, positive approach, you know, that sandwich approach. Show a positive, show a little bit of a negative, bring it back to where you want them to be. There's lot of that going on obviously in film reviews and things of that nature but i think talking with athletes one-on-one

you know there's they want to be reminded and see visually what what what they're capable of and once you've shared that experience visual and and shared it the same space, then there's no denying it. And the only thing I feel that gets in the way is some blockage that often refers back to trauma or something in their lives. And this is where the psychologist, this is where you come in. This is where I wish I was, you know, had more background in this because once you remove the blockage, the freedom is overwhelming. And, you know, if you can push someone to the point of where they hit that space and can, you know, get through it. I mean, I can't imagine the feeling and it seems like you've engendered that. And also with Pete Carroll, coach Carroll, it was interesting to listen to him because he's very freeing personality, very freeing.

Who is the woman you're becoming? My truest, authentic, freest self. I mean, the freedom I feel, it's interesting to be me. And I think this is the calling. I'm not going to say higher calling because I don't think there's any higher calling than coaching. I mean, the craft of coaching and, and psychology and brain health, I think I'm just entering into a new, a new part of this coaching and more people, more complicated, because not just all athletes. You seem really happy. The way that you are even approaching this conversation and, you know,

and at the same time really grounded. And so that's that freedom, I think, that you're talking about. If there's folks that hear this, how would you guide them to say, you know, there's no one path. But here's a couple of things that have been really important for me to get this sense of freedom, this sense of joy. I think coming to your true self takes time. It takes experience and it takes dealing with your greatest fears. And it was sort of forced onto me. I mean, I was in a mental hospital trying to fight my way out.

I mean, it was out of a movie and it was surreal. And we all have our stories and they are not the same, but the elements coming from them often are. And everyone seems to understand fear. Everyone's got an idea that anxiety, that bubbling up inside of you. And I think that once you get to a space of truly addressing it, I think I've lived in fear a lot, a long time in my life. Fear of people finding out, fear of not being able to work, fear of losing a job, fear of

being discriminated against, fear of people not understanding me, all of that. So it takes more than one. You're not alone. You have to trust people. I eventually did, you know, a therapist, a doctor, but then you have to do the things that are right for you. Exercise. I don't care if you're an athlete or not. Exercise, eat well, sleep, all the basics that we talk about. But I think that you have to, at some point, trust. And when you trust, it's a small circle and you've got to be able to share who you are authentically. That's going to save you until you can really get grounded. The human connection, as we all know,

has been incredible that it's been lacking so much and there's so much depression right now suicides are up it's a tough space that we're in and you when you're fearful you run from human connection because god forbid somebody could see inside of you and see that fear okay so um choice not chance love that. What does that mean to you? Well, choice, not chance. Choose to become a champion in life. It's a mantra. It's what I started with as a 26-year-old head coach. I believe that you are the product of your little choices.

I believe that if you feel your life is to chance, then you feel that there's no control. And if there's no control, then you can't better yourself and your situation may dictate exactly who you are. So regardless of where you come from, your background, your trauma, your history, your socioeconomic class, making choices matters. And I even talked about making the bed and, you know, kind of feed off of what it's like when you make your bed one day and when you don't make your bed, focusing all the way through to the critical choices, you know, who you choose to be with, associate with, education that you pursue.

So I think choice is just a very powerful word. It brings a sense of enthusiasm to life that I can make choices and I can make a difference in my life. And I just love teaching that to kids, you know, at summer camp or wherever, you know, the youngest kid to the oldest. Why Coach P? Where did that come from? I know I'm taking a left turn here. But where did that come from? My dad's name, Palumbo, Italian, Coach P. Okay. It was actually a tribute to me as a woman wanting not to take the name of my husband all the time.

So Joanne P. McCauley, McCauley's my married name, didn't want to ever break with Coach P. And now with my dad passing so recently, I'm really glad I never broke with Coach P. Okay. So Coach P was not, I get it. That was before you were married. Okay. All right. What a fun conversation. I mean, honestly, we've really traveled quite far here. When you think back to your younger self who was really trying to figure it out, and I don't want to be pithy in this question because I know it gets asked a lot, but what would you say to your younger self? Because I'm feeling a woman that has authenticity and grace and groundedness, great clarity on a process to work towards peace,

and really wants to see people do better in life. And if you could kind of reach back to your younger self, what would you say? I'd compliment myself more. I would tell myself that, not in a braggadocious or cocky way, but that, Joanne, you're pretty good. You're doing well. Giving yourself positive self-talk.

That was never a part of my life. I was always, what am I not doing? And yes, how can I be better, but more from coming from a critical space. So I tell myself to slow down, enjoy the process. I wish I had more of an eye test in my life. I was very outcome driven and rejection was very difficult for me to handle. That would bring that anxiety within me to be rejected, to not be selected for a USA team. Rather than understand the process of what that was sharing with me,

I tell myself to enjoy the process more and to pass my own eye tests that I developed much later in life. And why do people's opinions matter so much? You've mentioned it a few times. We just want to be accepted and we want to feel that what we do is valuable. And unfortunately, we're kind of taught from the outside in instead of from the inside out. So it's hard to get that peaceful feeling of what you're trying to accomplish. I think we're caught up in what I might call beauty pageants, fan mentality. It's what other people think of you. This whole thing on social media, what other people think of you and what you're trying to present is what they should think of you instead of your authentic self. And I just think that's a, unfortunately, that's maybe human nature a little bit too.

We are, we want to be connected. We want to be valued. And so we seek it. And sometimes, many times to a point of hurting ourselves, hurting others and not being in a great space. Yeah, because I don't get from you that you move very far from vulnerability very often. And so it's a totally different way of thinking about it, which is like, okay, practice being vulnerable, because that's the only pathway through to demonstrate courage.

But it feels like you swim in it often. I think I do. I mean, going to that space of those things that hurt instruct, right? I mean, if you're taking feedback and when you're vulnerable, you're opening yourself up and there are just two thoughts come to mind, those things that hurt instruct. And also in quoting Ayn Rand, which you, you do as well is, you know, you have to think deeply and feel deeply. And when you think deeply and feel deeply, there's a cost to that. There, you know, there's a, you know, I had one person tell me once, you know, Joanne, you have this problem where you assume everybody has a soul. And I thought, my gosh, I mean, that's the only space

you could be in. But I guess the point there was, you can't be vulnerable without one. And you can't, you can't reach out in that think deeply, feel deeply space. And that's something I've been sort of reared on. And I've also read on, I mean and I've also read on I mean I've read whether it be Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead or whether I'm reading coaching books like trying to the confluence of philosophy and sport and psychology is what's inside of me and all of that is merging at this at 55 years old it's merging right now if there's a master that you could sit down with who would it be where do you want to sit with this person and if you only had one question what would that question be oh gosh that i guess i should be

ready for that kind of question um i don't i to send you, I don't send folks like preparation so that, because it's just like, where's it come from for your heart right now? Who would that person be? Well, it's changed who that person would be. I consider myself a Buddhist Christian in a certain sense. And so the Dalai Lama might be my person. And I would, I would like to sit with him and say, if you don't mind, what is your view of mastery in life and happiness? And I would want to hear it directly. I know it's in the books and all that. But I would want to feel the energy of the answer. That's, it's a feeling like climbing a mountain, getting to the top. I would want the feeling of the answer, not just reading the answer.

I love that. This is why interpersonal relationships with people are so important, because there's an exchange that takes place. And the thing behind the eyes, when I work with folks, that's what I'm trying to work from, but it's what I'm looking for, that thing behind the eyes. And it speaks volumes when people can come from that place. And that's why I love when you say the eye test. It's actually how I do most of my work is that what I'm looking for is the thing behind the eyes. And I'll tell you a fun story is that I got invited. Let me just take a moment here. So there was a, my wife, we had this cork board. This was 10 years ago. It was in our home. And she goes, what is this picture of the Dalai Lama doing here?

I just put it up. I go, you know, I don't know. I'm going to meet him. And she goes, yeah, okay. I go't know. I'm going to meet him. She goes, yeah, okay. I go, no, I really want to meet him. And I feel like I just want to be connected to that. I really, like what an amazing human. And I'm not being, it just sounds like I'm being light about it, but really like one of the most, well, the enlightened one, one of the most switched on spiritual thoughtful people on the planet like and so alissa ronick a friend of mine she was on the podcast earlier she's an author and uh she i was like three months later she rings me up she goes hey um i've got this really

interesting or a really amazing opportunity where it's like 20-ish people that get to sit down with the Dalai Lama. Do you want to go? Oh, no. I go, come on. And she goes, no, I promise. And so I go, yeah. And so a small intimate room. It was before his presentation at UC Irvine about a decade ago.

And so somebody, and it was Q&A, and someone asked this question. So this will date it. Maybe it wasn't 10 years ago. It was when bin Laden had been killed. It was right after that, like weeks after he had been killed. And somebody asked a question. So what do you think about bin Laden being killed? And he said, he just, there was this thing, to your point, there was this pause and he couldn't quite understand why Americans were celebrating over the death of somebody who is quote unquote, let's call it evil. And he just couldn't quite understand it because he's like, unfortunately, we need to understand that we need them as well. I was like, the duality, the non-duality moment here

that he went to was just so rich, but it was the pausing of it. And it was the gathering of like, I really don't understand why people would celebrate the death of another, even if that person is evil. And I was like, oh, look, they're different levels. And so that pause that you talk about, I got to feel it. Oh, wow. Yeah. At young age, you're young. Like you're saying this was years ago.

Yeah, no, it was game shifting. And you know what was It was game shifting. And you know what was even more game shifting? Was the intensity of his laugh. Like the real deep joy that his laugh came from. He was not afraid of love and joy. And I think many of us are because it is such an overwhelming experience. And I hope you get that chance. Yeah, do oh gosh me too i wish i would have gotten that chance with tick not hon you know i i didn't i didn't put up the right

effort because i know that uh he's been a mentor of mine from a distance i've never met him but um i wish that i would i would have pushed into that because i think he's, from what I know, he's been really open to meet people and gracious with his time. So anyways, okay. Speaking of your time, how do you think about mastery? Well, mastery to me, I mean, in its simplest terms, is about passion and coming to peace with every bit of it. But then I said to myself, okay, Joanne, how are you going to define it, just define it to include all your component parts? So I sat down, I said, well, following your passions with intensity, immediacy, and intelligence, while taking applicable risks that allow for personal, professional, spiritual betterment while thriving daily. That would be my masterpiece of mastery.

I love it. My philosophy is every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece. And people obviously will say, well, what's a living masterpiece? And I've got a little bit different verbiage, but it involves what you just described, which is getting right on the edge every day, but maintaining your integrity. And so that risk-taking, that pushing into the edges of the uncomfortable unknown, that's part of mastery now. And then there's times when you lose yourself in that fear, in that uncomfortableness, whatever. But that practice of getting right on the edge and being still and present there. Yeah.

Coach P? Well, throw in a little crying too and laughter like having yeah yeah yeah you know that's her perfect day i think people around you are fortunate and i just want to say thank you for sharing some of the the light the joy and the intensity intelligence and just the the space behind your eyes is evident and so it doesn't come lightly. And I know that you've done some real work. And as an emblem for investigating the interior life to get to truth and authenticity is noted

and it's felt. And I just want to say thank you as a model for that. And as a model for the standards of excellence, you know, day in and day out. So thank you. Well, thank you. And what a wonderful podcast. This long medium is so much, so fulfilling relative to some of the short spaces. It's hard to talk about this in a four minute segment. It doesn't work, does it? Yeah. It just comes out so short. Yeah. So I want to encourage you to have your own podcast. And so I think that you've got so much to say.

And if there's any way that we can help, I'd love to help you there. And what a joy. So where can people go? Do you want to send them over to the website, social media? Where's the right place for people? Well, I mean, the social media, Coach P for Life on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook. And then of course, you've got coachp.org website. I never look at my website, though. That's just kind of strange to me. I do try to follow social media. And I'm trying to get

on the speaking circuit. I'm trying to be able to be in person with people. I feel like when I'm in person, it's better. I'm doing lots of Zooms, and I really am going to try the podcast thing. After the pharmaceuticals, see, I've been taking medication for a long time. And I think it's time for them to allow somebody who's benefited from what they've developed in the laboratory, have another laboratory, which is people's health, and also taking the medication. So there's a natural, you know, Glasgow Smith and Klein is right down the road here for, you know, during Raleigh Durham area. So I feel like I've, I've got to figure it out. I'm an entrepreneur relative to podcasts and relative to all the things that

are out there. This is a whole new world for me. Awesome. Well, we're definitely going to look, we'll chat afterwards and we'll see how we can get you, get you down the path a little faster than, uh, maybe you get there on your, on your own there. So, okay. Awesome. Um, I want to encourage everyone to, to get a new book, secret warrior and, um, and I'm, I'm stoked for it as well. So coach B, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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