Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Overcoming the Uncertainty of 2020 | Rich Roll

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Rich Roll – if you’ve listened to Finding Mastery for a while you know the name – this is his third time on the podcast and he’s someone I just love getting a chance to chat with.For those of you unfamiliar with Rich, he was named one of the “25 Fittest Men in the World” by Men’s Fitness and “The World’s Fittest Vegan” by Men’s Health.Rich is a globally renown ultra-endurance athlete, wellness advocate, bestselling author, husband and father of four.When he isn’t lost on a trail or spending time with his wife Julie, their four children and two Great Pyrenees, he hosts the wildly popular Rich Roll Podcast, one of the top 100 podcasts in the world.Rich also has a new book coming out titled, Voicing Change, set for release in November 2020.It felt very timely to speak with Rich again – he knows what rock-bottom feels like and he found a way to put his life back together.With how much current uncertainty there is in the world, I wanted to get a feel for how he’s approaching this year – specifically what his past experiences have taught him about how to respond when things feel like they're collapsing from all sides. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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from underneath you, I say, congratulations. Like what a fucking opportunity that is. You are being given an opportunity to look at yourself and reconstruct your life from the ground up. Not everybody gets that opportunity. Like lean into it. Our instinct is to shun it or avoid it or pretend it's not there. But the truth is, there's this incredible gift if you move towards it. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais.

By trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. Now, the whole idea behind this podcast, behind these conversations, is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery. Now, we're much more interested in that blending between mastery of self and mastery of craft. And we also want to dig to understand what is the tension between those two? What are the specific and unique ways that they're going at building their craft? But more importantly, how are they mastering the inner life?

How do they organize their thinking? How do they organize their inner life to pursue the very best of themselves? And that usually involves something about purpose. It usually involves something about dealing with uncertainty and also like how do they manage when things don't go according to plan? That's all about the inner life. That's about the psychological skills to be able to pivot and adjust. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building

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I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been

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but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with a legend, Rich Roll. If you've listened to this podcast for a while, you know his name. This is the third time we've had him on the podcast. And he's someone I just, I love getting the chance to sit and learn and talk and converse with. And he's got a way about himself that is open and learned. So he's got that right blend

between the two. And for those of you who are unfamiliar with Rich, he was named as one of the 25 fittest men in the world by Men's Fitness, and the world's fittest vegan by Men's Health. Rich is a globally renowned ultra endurance athlete, and I don't throw that globally around very often. He is globally renowned as an ultra endurance athlete, a wellness advocate, he's a best-selling author, he's a husband and a father of four. He also, prior to much of that, graduated from Stanford University and Cornell Law School. Now, the way that he and I first met is that he hosts the Rich Roll podcast, and that's one of the top 100 podcasts in the world. And Rich is, in fact, the reason I started this podcast. So there's much that I owe him. He's got a new book

coming out titled Voicing Change, and that's set for release in November of 2020. He's also got a couple of previous books that I think you're really going to like, Finding Ultra, if you're not familiar with him, but then one that I think is a game changer for families. Certainly if you're down the path on conscious eating, he and his wife wrote a cookbook and lifestyle primer. It's called The Plant Power Way, whole food, plant-based recipes and guidance for the whole family. And I felt it was incredibly timely to speak to Rich again. And for one reason, he knows what rock bottom feels like. I don't say that lightly. And he found a way to put his life back together. And I wanted to get a feel for how he is approaching the uncertainty

of this year. And in light of what his past experiences have taught him, how he's able to respond when things feel like they're closing in, collapsing from the sides, if you will. And that's something that many of us are feeling, certainly when it comes to business and or health and or messages from politics, which we get into good conversations about all that. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend, Rich Roll. Rich, how are you? I'm good.

And I will say up front, normally, it's much more relaxing to be a guest on a podcast than to be a host, but maybe not with you. Here we go. Come on. Oh, hey, listen, I want to start by saying I'm incredibly grateful for you. And so the reason I'm incredibly grateful is because we met maybe four or five years ago and maybe longer. And that day changed me. And so you had me on your show, which anybody who's not familiar with the Rich Roll podcast, please go check it out.

And so you had me on your show and I loved the way that you handled the experience of a long form interview. And it was organic and it was deep and it was rich and it gave me a chance to share as opposed to trying to have to get the right little bits in place to get the sound bite right because you never quite know what's going to go next. And so I was like, this is a beautiful experience. So you're the reason I have a podcast. I appreciate that. You did the work, though. You've created something phenomenal.

I'm glad that I helped ignite that spark. I remember reading about you. I think it was perhaps your work with Felix and Stratos that caught my attention initially. And I was like, who is this guy? I got to find this guy. I tracked you down. And I was like, hey, man, you got to come on my thing. And you're like, what is this? And I'm like, why? You're sort of a reluctant. You totally was. Like, what is this? Yeah. And so I love the serendipity of it. And then over the years to get to know you as a person, man, I love sitting down with you, learning from you.

And I think this is meant to be the highest compliment is that you without words changes people. So I feel that even when you don't say things, just your presence and the way that you present your curiosity and your essence, I feel it. And so to me, the way that I make sense of that is that you've done a lot of work on you. Hmm. The way that I make sense of that is that you've done a lot of work on you. I'm going to try to take that in, but I feel my imposter syndrome flaring up right now. I'm resisting the impulse to tell you why you're wrong about all of those things.

Sometimes you just got to take it, you know? Yeah. So let's just kind of play with that. Like FOPO, fear people's opinions. Does that show up for someone like you? Oh, yeah. Tons. I've done a lot of work to transcend that, but it's very present in my life. I mean, my arc has been one of being a prisoner of that, not just random other people, but my home environment and just kind of the social expectations of the environment

in which I was brought up. And I had to reach some pretty significant pain moments that forced me to confront that in a profound way. And I've worked very hard to craft and cultivate a life that is outside of that rubric, but I'll find myself in a situation like we're in right now. It's like, I want your respect. I want you to like me. What do I need to say and do so that I can covet favor in the Michael Gervais universe like that, that that's always going on. So how do you manage that? Like even right now, uh, two friends having a conversation,

like, how do you manage that? How do I manage it in what way? There's a, I don't know the number of words in, you know, uh, in the English language, but you have all of them available to you. You're a very smart human being. And you've got this tension, we, you're not alone in this, but you've got a tension maybe showing up in some respect right now, like, okay, well, I want to be found favorable and smart or whatever it might be, but I also want to be me.

I want to speak truth. And so how do you manage that tension between others' expectations or thoughts versus your own personal truth? I call myself out on it like I just did. Like I bring voice to it. Like I'm letting you know that this is part of who I am. And that is integral to what it means to be authentic. Like I think a former version of myself would have been too ashamed or afraid to admit that I would like you to like me or that I want to make sure that I come off well. But I've let go of that. And part of letting it go is to acknowledge that it exists within me. And the work is really the awareness around it. And then the tools to like quell the ego. Right?

Yeah, there you go. Okay. When did you first notice that showed up? The others, the others, people, other people's opinions were a bit of a constrictor or a narrative that was running a parallel game to how you wanted to live? That's a great question. I don't know that there was a discrete or distinct moment where that became consciously apparent. I think on a semi-unconscious level, I've always known it was there. Like I grew up in a household where there were certain expectations about how to be and what to do and the trajectory that you were on. And I accepted those.

But I also felt, I was also aware that from a very early age that I was kind of like a square peg trying to jam into a round hole. But I was determined to make that square peg fit into the round hole. And I did it and I did it and I did it and I did it until I reached an inflection point like a crisis point where it just was no longer possible for me to do that. And to be really concrete you found yourself working hard you landed as one of the elite swimmers in the NCAA the collegiate experience at Stanford one of the premier universities on the planet.

And then you find yourself getting a law degree from one of the premier universities on the planet. And to be clear, I was a benchwarmer at Stanford. Come on. Everyone says that. Trust me. I was not putting points up on the board. I was proud to be a member of that team. Okay, that's cool. And the team won two NCAA championships when we were there. It was an extraordinary group of athletes and certainly a highlight of my life.

But I was not a reason why that team won the NCAA championships. Okay, well, I'll give you that. But that also being said, it's a it's a statement of talent work ethic um you kind of biting down and figuring out like how to navigate your early life to get to a premier program for both from academics and athletics and so it sounds like there was an undercurrent um that was also happening for you which is square peg peg, round hole, that dissonance, as it's called, is actually quite toxic for people. And you bounced your head up against the concrete a few times until you finally said, I'm not doing this anymore.

Yeah, I think that swimming was really my first drug of choice. I think I was an insecure kid who really struggled with how to fit in and how to be. And swimming was a safe place. And it was the one thing that I had any demonstrable acumen or talent in. And I doubled I saw it as a way out and a way through as well as kind of this womb-like container that allowed me to opt out of the outside world that was causing some kind of stress and anxiety for me. But I also, it was also the place where I developed drive and confidence and all these incredible life skills, visioning, purpose. I was not the most talented swimmer, but I had this tremendous work ethic. And I figured out that if I outworked everybody, I could narrow that talent deficit gap.

And ultimately, it took me to Stanford. it took me to Stanford, you know, I don't know that I would have gotten into Stanford without swimming, like it was a huge part of that equation. And it really helped set me up for the rest of my life. But there's also, you know, a story of alcoholism baked into all of that. And, you know, the second addiction and losing myself in substances, without any kind of healthy tools for how to cope with this stew of emotions that I was experiencing. Mm-hmm. So this is actually the narrative that sits underneath why I wanted to have this conversation with you now. And you tore it down and built it up. And I'm saying that as if you consciously tore it down.

You know, addiction usually isn't consciously tearing something down. It's like really trying to deal with the internal turmoil because the facing of the pain feels too big. You know, and so there's I don't want to step into your narrative and story. So I'm being a bit cheap with my analysis here, but you tore it down in a way that you, tell me if I'm being too dramatic or I'm off tone here, but you hit rock bottom. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah. And so you hit a bottom place and then and then you built this thing back you reimagined the man that you want to be and become and back to my first note about your authenticity and your presence and even the humility to say yeah i

get worried about what you're thinking or others think so i want to in the in the modern times right now that we're facing falling apart you know businesses family life mental health our relationship with nature our relationship with um political ideology like things are falling apart. And when I think about the people I want to learn from, of how to rebuild from a bottoms experience, I want to learn. So how? Teach. Like how did you get to the place where you're like, I'm going to fundamentally change my life?

Pain. You know, pain's been my greatest teacher. We've talked about this in the past. I'm grateful that I hit bottom. There's plenty of people that can perpetuate unhealthy habits for the course of their life, and it never gets bad enough that they have to really confront themselves at that level of profundity. So to that extent, I'm very grateful that I've hit these moments, these roadblocks in my life that have forced me to stop and take stock and inventory of how I was living. And those experience have compelled me

to ask the hard questions like, what am I doing here? Why have I made these choices about my career? Who is it that I really wanna be Like, I didn't ask myself those questions until quite late in life. I was in my early 30s when I first started to grapple with that. And in terms of like, teaching, like all I can do is share my experience. And my experience is that this was very inelegant and very slow. It required a tremendous amount of patience, a lot of mistakes, and a lot of hard work. And fundamentally, understanding that there are very few things that I have control over, but the things I do have control over are

my thoughts, my behaviors, my actions, my reactions to the world. And I devoted myself to focusing on honing those things and trying to attempt to get clear on what it was that uniquely made me me and what song it was that I wanted to sing. And that's a constantly evolving thing. I didn't have an epiphany and then break out a whiteboard and create some kind of roadmap to get to this place where I'm sitting across from you having a conversation is very much in the moment trying to be in tune with myself and what would potentially get me excited to get out of bed in the morning. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or

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Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. So you speak about it as if it's, you don't make light of it. You don't say it's easy. You're saying it's real hard work and it's not simple. But I think you've got such space from it that those that are in it right now, if you could speak right into their heart, somebody who's really struggling, if you could speak right into their heart, how would you do that? And maybe we could use me too.

Like there's places in my life I'm like, how am I going to figure this out? And I'm supposed to be the person that is supposed to know things. Yeah. But like I'm not immune. I don't have like a, oh gosh, what's it called? When you're sitting on generational wealth and like a trust fund. I don't have a trust fund.

The economic world has fallen apart. You know, I'm making the best informed choices that I can, but I'm trying to keep up with measure twice, cut once. You know, like all that. So take me out of it for a minute though. But like, how do you speak to the people that are like deeply struggling? If you're stuck, if you're struggling, if you're being dismantled, if you feel like your life is getting pulled out from underneath you, I say, congratulations. Like what a fucking opportunity that is. You are being given an opportunity to look at yourself and reconstruct your life from the ground up.

Not everybody gets that opportunity. Like lean into it. Our instinct is to shun it or avoid it or pretend it's not there. But the truth is there's this incredible gift if you move towards it. We're here to grow. We're here to grow. We're here to learn. And we're taught that the lives best lived are the ones that are strife-free, the ones that are free of trauma and tragedy.

But that's just not the case in anybody I've met and certainly the interesting people that I've met. It's that struggle. It's that confrontation with what you're grappling with that is like the stuff of life. And it holds the potential energy to create something entirely new if you're willing to respect it and give it the attention it deserves. When you're in that place, it can feel like you're going to be there forever but if you devote yourself to that path of self-understanding and you respect the struggle and engage it with everything that you have i'm convinced that no problem is unsolvable because i've seen thousands of lives transformed over the years and so so I think it's a beautiful thing.

So if you can tweak your lens on it and perceive it through that kind of perspective, perhaps it will energize you to move forward in a different way. Okay, so how about poetry aside? Because I'm listening to every word like, ooh, right, right, right. Rich, I'm about to lose my house. Rich, I've got four kids. This is not me, but I've got four kids and listen, I'm starting to rip through my savings account and I've realized that it's about to get real. You know, I had some luxuries because I was doing okay and I'm over leverage now and I'm freaking out and I'm freaking scared, you know, and I am the person that people are relying on because, you know, I'm providing for my family, single income family. What about that kind of direness, you know, which is like it's not really dire, let's say, because no one's dying.

Right. Right. But it's that it's hard to breathe type of stuff. Yeah. I'm empathetic to that. I've been in a version of that experience. Even after my book came out, and there were articles about me being written on the internet, and I was being celebrated to some regard, I couldn't put food on the table. And we did come within 48 hours of having our house foreclosed. And I do have four kids. And we did have two cars repossessed. It got to the point where we had our garbage bins taken away

because I didn't have the 80 bucks to have our garbage picked up. And so we would put our garbage in the back of this crappy old minivan that we had and look for, you know, go behind the grocery store or whatever and throw it in the bins there. So, you know, I've been in a version of that, so I don't want to minimize it, and I have some experience with what that feels like. It's incredibly emasculating and demoralizing and you feel like there's no way out and I certainly didn't know what the way forward was but what I learned through that was that and I don't want to say I don't want to come

off as sounding flip in any regard because this is real life serious stuff but it forces you to recalibrate your relationship to the material world and what that means. And I realized that so much of the emotional angst that I had around what I was experiencing was being dictated by a cultural narrative that really is an illusion about what a man is or what a man should own or what success looks like. And Julie and I, you know, I think that's a situation that could blow a marriage apart, but it brought us together and we were aligned in our values. And she was my strength when I couldn't find that strength within myself. And the encouragement that I got from her was to double down on purpose and values and to cultivate, get clear on and then cultivate what was most important to us. We were lucky enough to find our way through. And sometimes

I look back on that and I don't know how we did it because it really brought us to our knees. So all I can say to somebody who is in that place, you know, I can't tell you you're not going to lose your house. And I can't tell you that that won't be painful, but you've always got to find the sliver of learning. And what is it that you're being presented with where there's a growth opportunity for you to reevaluate your relationship with the world and how you interface with it and to get clear on who you really are and what's important.

Stuff is stuff. Like when my car got repossessed, I was devastated. And Julie's like, figure it out. You know, it's like, really, I don't know if we can, like, I was freaking out. She was right. But I had to, that had to happen in order for me to reframe what that means as, you know, a man and a head of a household. What were the dinner conversations about, like pre-dinner, post-dinner, during the dinner? You know, would you have these conversations at the dinner table with your kids? Yeah, our kids were young, so we didn't want to traumatize our

kids and make them feel like they wouldn't be taken care of or that they were unsafe. But we also didn't want to be dishonest about what was happening either. So we turned it into a game. Like for Christmas, we just made each other get, like we just did creative projects. And I think back on that Christmas, that was the best Christmas. We couldn't afford gifts. So we bought like Hanes t-shirts for a dollar and painted them, you know, and did stuff like that, like stuff that really brought us together as a family. And, you know, time will tell how that impacted them and how they'll live their lives. I do know, you know, our boys are older

now, they're 25 and 24. And they have a lot of gratitude for that experience because it's helped them understand the value of a dollar. It's helped them understand that you're not entitled to anything. And they saw kind of what Julie and I had to do to rebuild and create what we're doing now. And it all looks like it happened effortlessly, but there was a lot of struggle, and there was a lot of work that went into it. And so I think them bearing witness to that has been instructive in terms of how they think about what's required to create something in the world for themselves. From the lessons that you've learned and experiences that you've had, how are you porting those over to COVID-19, a pandemic, high uncertainty of both business and

health conditions that we're trying to sort out right now? Well, I think it's a fraught and unique moment that we're all experiencing. Anxiety is running high. Divisiveness is through the roof. Depression, suicide, suicidal ideation. I have teenage daughters. I'm seeing them go through it. There's a lot of angst. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of upheaval, some of it necessary, some of it unproductive. tectonic plates of culture are shifting beneath our feet, and it's very disorienting. It's

confusing, and it's scary, point blank. On top of that, a pandemic that's killing people, and a lot of people are getting sick. From a personal perspective, I'm essentially an introvert. When this all began, I thought, well, I'll just hole up at home. I'm fine. Like, I can just do my thing, and nobody will bug me. Kind of sounds good. But that's worn thin, and I found myself despairing at lack of contact with my friends. My recovery community moved to Zoom, just like everybody's work situation, and we're finding ourselves staring at screens all day long. And it's hard, man. It's hard.

I think at the same time, I've made sure that I've maintained my health. It's not an excuse to sit on the couch and eat Cheetos. And I live in a beautiful part of the world where I can still go outside and trail run and exercise and do the things that I love. So I'm very lucky and grateful that I can pursue the living that I have and do the things that nourish me. So I'm one of the fortunate ones, but it's paid a toll on me psychologically. And, and, you know, meanwhile, I'm wearing a mask and trying to be a good citizen and trying to take care of my family and the like. And lately I've been very – I'm energized by identifying the opportunity. Like now everybody's in repose.

Nobody's really doing very much. And I'm like, I'm ready to go. I finished a book during this period of time. We're moving our podcast into a studio. I'm investing in myself. When everybody's afraid, I'm moving forward. You know, it's like if you're zigging, how can I zag? Where can I find the sliver, you know, of opportunity here that perhaps is being overlooked by other people and trying to

get clear on what the controllables are in a situation that feels wildly out of control. So, okay. Is that you being a strategist or is that like you saying, I just feel like I'm onto something and I just want to keep pouring into what feels right to me. The latter. I know you talk a lot, you're a systems thinker, you think in terms of systems. I really don't. What's your vision? I'm just like, you know what? This feels right right now. I want to continue being able to do what I'm doing. I want to get better at it. I'm very much, my vision isn't probably as extrapolated out as it should be. Like I'm really just kind of riding the wave and feeling what's right in the moment. What are you doing to take care of your internal ecosystem, you know, your body?

What are you doing to make sure that if you were to come in contact with a virus, that you'd be in a good position? Well, I'm trying to make sure that I don't have any comorbidity factors, like trying to be healthy, right? So exercising every day, but not over-exercising or over-training that I'm running myself down. I don't think that's wise. In the early parts of the pandemic, you would see all these people doing crazy challenges, like running a marathon in their apartment or doing something that's like wildly disproportionate to whatever their fitness level was. And I just remember thinking that's irresponsible right now. Like we don't want to be run down and fatigued. We want

to be at our best. So having a balance with the exercise, making sure that I'm getting enough sleep, staying hydrated, using my whoop to make sure my body's recovering on a day-to-day basis, supplementing with vitamin D and zinc and vitamin C. What kind of dosage are you on at vitamin D? I think it's 500 IUDs right now, like a little bit mega dosing just to make sure. Mm-hmm. And other than that, you know, staying at home, restricting my movements to just what's essential and trying to limit my exposure to other people and make sure that my kids are okay. Okay. I don't know. I don't know that I'm doing anything

different than anyone else would be doing. How important is sleep to you? Super important. Me too. Yeah. You know, I sleep in a tent. No, I did not know that. You don't know that?

I thought we talked about this. Oh God, my memory then. You're sleeping in a tent. I've slept outside in a tent for two, two and a half years at this point, every night. With Julie? No. No. You guys are sleeping in a tent for two, two and a half years at this point, every night. Literally? No. No. You guys are sleeping in separate? Yeah. Oh my God. But this was driven, I mean, let me contextualize it. Will you indulge me? Oh, yeah. So I've struggled with sleep and sleep's super important to me. If I don't get an adequate night's sleep, and for me, that generally means

about eight hours, I don't do well. I don't interface with the world well. I'm crotchety. I'm unproductive. And as I get older, it's become more and more important that I stay on top of it. And when I was training for these crazy races, I would just be exhausted. So I'd sleep perfectly fine. Even when I was running myself down, races, I would just be exhausted. So I'd sleep perfectly fine. Even when I was running myself down, I would have a great night of sleep. But I think something about backing off of that, like now my training load is very nominal compared to what it used to be. And I don't fatigue. Like going out for an hour and a half run or riding my bike for a couple hours, like it doesn't make me tired

so that I get that kind of deep restfulness. Meanwhile, Julie likes the bedroom warm, I like it cold. So there was this war going on where neither of us were ever happy. I'm sleeping on top of the cover sweating, she's underneath extra covers freezing. And we would bicker about this thing and we have a flat roof at our house and one summer night um in the summertime when we would we

we would do movie night like out on that we have a flat wall we could project movies and we get out sleeping bags and like popcorn and spend the night on the roof. And one of those evenings, I just had the most amazing night of sleep under the stars with the cool air at night. And I told Julie the next day, I was like, I feel so good. Like, I'm just gonna sleep on the roof from now on. She's like, knock yourself out. But then I would wake up with all this condensation

all over me gets wet and stuff like that. So I was like, I'm getting a tent. And then it just started from there. But I found that my sleep is so much more restful when I'm outdoors. And that is the combination of slow sleep waves and REM? REM and my deep sleep cycle is more extended. Yeah, so do you know the percentages?

If you could kind of- No, but I know when I feel my best, I've gotten a minimum of two and a half hours in REM and two hours in deep. Well, that's a lot. Yeah. I'm lucky if I get into that. Short of that, I don't feel right. Okay. And I also sleep with, I have like an eye mask and a gravity blanket. You know about the gravity blanket?

I do, I haven't used one. I run a little hot. So I was concerned that if I have a heavy thing on and I'm gonna run hot, that I'm gonna find myself sweaty. That's where the cool air is important. If it's cold out and you're under the gravity blanket, it's the best. Oh, look at you. Yeah, okay.

You know what, here's what's interesting, and I'd be interested in your perspective as a psychologist. When I was struggling with sleep, even when I was sleeping in the tent, Julie said, you should check out this gravity blanket, like this weighted blanket thing. And I was like, sounds weird. She's like, I want you to,

and this, correct me if I'm wrong, but these blankets, the original purpose of them was to treat children on the autism spectrum. And by wrapping them in this blanket, it calmed them down. It like chilled out their sympathetic nervous system, right, and told them that they were safe. And she's like, maybe you're on the spectrum. She's convinced I'm like on the spectrum somewhere i don't know what that means but um she's like think about when you went to the dentist and you have

that lead blanket on your chest how does that what is that how does that make you feel i was like that sounds good oh my gosh yeah i was like you're right. I do need that. And I, now I have trouble sleeping without it. Like I love it. So I think my nervous system is needs it for some reason. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to

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So what else do you do to damp your sympathetic nervous system? So the sympathetic to, as a, you know, like a shorthand is the on mechanism in your body, the fight, flight, freeze. And the parasympathetic is the rest and digest. What do you do to damp down your sympathetic? The healthy things or the unhealthy things? Yeah, whatever you do, whatever your strategies are. You know, the healthy strategies are to not eat too late, to have no screens in the bed, to have some magnesium magnesium warm magnesium and

water at night like all of these kinds of things to like which magnesium do you take the calm oh calm it's called calm yeah that's the brand name it's a blend yeah a blend of magnesium those are big magnesium is a big kind of um molecule yeah so is it like two three four or is it one big one? I don't even know. It's like a teaspoon of this powder. Oh, okay. There you go.

Just dissolve it in like warm water. Okay, cool. Yeah. The unhealthy like addict brain strategies that I employ are eating very late at night, like right before I go to bed because then all the blood goes to my stomach and I pass out. Of course, I wake up at three o'clock in the morning if I do that.

Yeah. Or distracting myself by watching something on a screen in my bed to calm my looping in my brain to distract it so that it can become more calm. So, you know, I'll find myself in loops as well. And this is like, this is, it's not optimal, but it's, it works. And I ran up by a sleep scientist and he was like,

eh, pretty good actually. So I'll use a mask as well. We've got blackout shades in our room, but still got it, you know, kind of comes between the cracks of the blackout shade. So I've got a mask on too. The Mindfold? What mask do you use?

No, there's not a name brand on it. It's like something my wife said. I got the Mindfold for you. Seriously? You got to check it out. Okay. All right, cool. And then so here's the strategy.

It's like, let's say like cycle two, we're 90 plus 90 minutes in. You know, every cycle is about 90 minutes, 180 minutes in and bink, I'm up. I feel a little adrenaline because obviously I wake up and the first thing is like, I'm starting to solve that problem. You know, that's important to me. And so usually I give myself a handful of moments, breathe, shut her down, you know, like, okay. And I'll give myself like four or five minutes, maybe six, seven minutes. If that doesn't work, I make a choice. I either get up out of bed or, ah, this is just so easy to do. I'll grab my phone, but it's on like red screen. Do you know about the red screen on your phone? Yeah. So I turn on red screen. So it screen so there's no blue light. And I pop in an earbud and I put a documentary on that is boring. But I'm kind of interested in it, but I kind of know it.

And so I don't have to work really hard. So usually it's Amazon and I'm doing like philosophy documentaries. And this happened last night. And so I popped it on for a few minutes and I don't know, 15 minutes of kind of just in that whatever. And then bang, I'm out. And if I don't do that, I end up finding myself like 40 minutes later. God, you know, like, come on, shut her down.

Breathe, relax, you know. So this is a little bit of a, I don't think I'm using that's been working. That's cool. I mean, I find that when I wake up in the night or if I'm struggling with falling asleep, it's because I'm caught on a loop where I'm like rehearsing some problem that's clearly bugging me. And that not only rents a lot of space in my head,

but it's preventing me from getting into that state where I'm gonna fall asleep. And if I wake up in the middle of the night, my brain without intentionally redirecting it will default to that same loop. So that's where like the documentary or the distraction comes in to try to redirect attention away

from it so that you can soothe yourself a little bit. Yeah, it is soothing. Yeah, the soothing. Reading a book or something, I don't know. Okay, so sleep is super important. Nutrition, obviously you're on point. You've been vegan or vegetarian? Vegan for 13 years.

And then the easy question, how do you get enough protein? There's so much confusion around protein. I mean, that's a whole podcast and there are people much more qualified to speak about this than myself. But the truth is every food- You're an ultra athlete You're, you're, you're, you're an ultra athlete. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. You're the fittest man alive by mental, or what was it? Men's health? Men's fitness? Who knows, man. I don't believe what you read. Fittest man's alive. Every plant food that you eat has some level of protein in it. Protein is nothing more than an assemblage of amino acids. There are how many amino acids?

I don't know that. A certain number of them. I know grape has protein. Yeah, everything you eat has those building blocks of protein in them. The nine essential amino acids are the ones that you have to get from your food. It means your body can't synthesize them yourself. And nature has almost rigged it that if you just randomly graze on plant foods all day long, you'll essentially be taking in 10% of those calories and protein,

which is in the range of what is recommended for your daily intake of protein all i can tell you is i've pushed my body to some pretty you know extreme lengths 53 almost 54 now i've never had a problem building lean muscle mass my recovery when i'm pushing myself is really good i feel good i remain fit remain fit. I'm in the gym now. Like I'm using this COVID period to work more on strength than I have in the past to kind of pivot away from the endurance and get back to some functional strength stuff. And I found myself rebounding well and feeling good. And I just, I think it's a, I think this whole protein obsession fascination is misplaced and ill-founded.

I think people would be better off worrying about their fiber intake. Most people are taking in a multiple of the amount of protein that they need. And your body only needs what it needs and it discards the rest. What do you think most people would benefit from gut health? Because you're eating the right vegetables to support the lining. Well, the science that's coming out of microbiome research right now is mind-blowing.

I just had a doctor on my podcast called Dr. Will Bulsiewicz who had a book that came out recently called Fiber Fueled. And his whole thesis is we need more fiber. Nobody's protein deficient. Nobody's going to the doctor because they have a protein deficiency. But something like 93% or 97% of people are fiber deficient. And his whole thing is diversity, diversity, diversity. Like the more types of foods, preferably plant foods, maybe I'm biased, the more diversity of the plant kingdom that you're taking in on a daily basis creates greater robustness and health in the microbiome. And the health of your microbiome is related to all aspects of health,

from mental acuity to skin health to digestive issues and everything in between. Can I ask you to kind of chef me up in a little recipe for dinner tonight? What am I eating? What are you eating? Yeah, what are we eating tonight? How hungry are you? Yeah, I eat. I enjoy eating.

I keep it simple. The kind of diet that I eat is really pauper food. I eat tons of rice and beans. I eat massive salads. I eat tons of potatoes. Julie's the wizard in the kitchen, but when she's not cooking, I'll make stuff that's super basic. But all kinds of chilies, vegan burritos, vegan enchil stuff that's like super basic. But you know, all kinds of like chilies, vegan burritos, vegan enchiladas, things like that. Are you shopping on the, the kind of end

aisles, you know, like the outside of the supermarket or produce tons of, yeah, just stay. So you're not doing like a, like a, a Trader Joe's vegan burrito. No. In a wrapper? No. No. Okay. But you can go to Chipotle and get a bowl and it's pretty good. Rice and beans and lettuce and guacamole and some hot sauce. I'm good to go. I could eat that every day. So would you consider that a healthy, I don't know, Chipotle, is that a healthy choice? In the spectrum of what's available in a convenient way, it's on the healthier end of the scale. I mean, I would eat, basically like I have a smoothie in the morning that's packed with dark leafy greens and all kinds of produce and berries and hemp seeds

and chia seeds and things like that. Frozen or? Sometimes frozen. I mean, if it's organic and frozen, it locks in the nutrients right after picking. So sometimes that has a higher nutritional value than something that came from the farmer's market but has been in your fridge for 10 days. Big giant salads for lunch, again, with just as much diversity as possible. I think always like mixing it up is important. So you don't eat eggs, right? No eggs. No, no eggs. So I'll do a breakfast. I'll do a, what's it? Ezekiel bread. I've got a little bit of avocado that I'll kind

of put on there. This is my son and I, this is what we do. So we've got that. Avocado toast. You're so LA bourgeois. So bougie. Put a little egg on there. This is my son and I, this is what we do. So we've got that. Avocado toast. You're so LA bourgeois. So bougie. Put a little egg on there. So we'll get a nice little egg on there. And then you'll laugh about this, a little Himalayan salt, a little bit of a Nestle oil that we'll put on there for some interesting taste, olive oil for oleic acid. And then chia seeds. Yeah. How about chia seeds? I love it. Why did you think I would laugh at that yeah well except for the egg part yeah right you know damn chickens and so uh chia seed you know like uh most people are like what chia seed on a on a on an avo toast but yeah so that's

that's a go-to in our home like we've got some superfood in there and then the ezekiel bread is like a little bit uh i think a little healthier choice for a grain. You can make chia seed pudding with chia seeds and avocado. And it tastes like the best pudding you've ever had. So easy to make. Well, so on that note, it kind of, it reminds me of the cashew cheese that your wife makes. Oh my God. What is that?

Yeah. She's really figured out the vegan cheese thing. Man. All right. I'm getting hungry. Coming to Erewhon soon. Yeah, I know, huh? Yeah.

Okay. So let's pivot gently here. So we've got some thoughts about nutrition, some thoughts about sleep. And then if you were to help optimize thinking strategies for folks. And that's what I really want to know from you as well, is like, how do you think about something that doesn't go according to plan? Like you tried, you prepared, you were diligent, you put in high effort and

it didn't go the way you hoped. You move on. What do you say to yourself? You move on. What do you say? I'm not in control of the results. Okay. You know, it goes back to controlling the controllables. I can control my work ethic, my output, what I put into something. I can't control how it will be received or the end result of that. And the longer I do this, you know, the more, you know, been around for a while, like it just gets easier to let stuff like that roll off your back. And when you have invested a lot of time, which is an opportunity cost, and you've invested, um, some resource, uh, financial resources and it doesn't go according to plan. How do you manage that? You allow yourself to feel the natural feelings of disappointment that come with that. But I think through that healthy relationship between process and outcome and through mindfulness practices, the half-life of that emotional reaction is much shorter.

So you become more resilient and you're able to bounce back more quickly. So it's not that you're not bummed. You know, I'm a human being. If something doesn't go my way, I can be disappointed. I can be upset. But I'm able to recalibrate more quickly and get back on track. How do you balance for you that space between the half-life being a really quick half-life, right? To a muted callousness for the experience, the emotional experience that's actually happening for you and others. Meaning denial? Is that a version of denial? like pretending like it's not bad yeah that's cool

well i think it's what i just said which is acknowledging it like acknowledging the the the validity of the emotional experience that you're having, like not trying to pretend like it didn't happen or that it's not disappointing, right? So if you're allowing yourself to feel those feelings, you're not having a muted callousness to it. You're in recognition of it. But you have a choice about how much you're gonna indulge in that. There it is. You know, so I think it's the separate, it's the recognition, but separating yourself

from self identifying with it. Oh, there you go. Okay. When you speak, where do you speak from? When I'm at my best, I'm speaking from the heart where I'm not, I'm not, my mind is out of the way. And when you're, when you temporarily fall from that grace, where do you speak from? I get up in my head and then it all becomes stuttered. Yeah. I recognize that. Where are you speaking from right now? I recognize that in me. Yeah. I think I'm, I think I start, you're challenging me and you're asking, like, as you always do, you ask questions that

I haven't been asked before, which forces me to think. So I think I start from the head. And then as I develop a comfort level, I start to let go of that and move more into the heart. I hope. I don't know. Yeah. So how do you tell me? I feel that there's an integration in the way that you do it.

It's more like the tonation that you have. But only you really know. That's the thing that we can kind of fool some people. And I'm a trained observer of humans. And so I'll pick up some micro expressions better than maybe somebody else. But only you really know because you're a sophisticated person. So you know how to get over on people and you're also deep and rich in the way that you want to communicate the truth, you know? Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because I don't, I could try to hide behind some vernacular to get over on somebody and it will play.

Oh, for sure it does. But I don't want to do that. But sometimes if I'm not sure I have a good answer to the question, I'll find myself doing that. You'll use, it's kind of like, this is relying on your strengths. You know, so what's his name? Shaquille O'Neal. What do you do? What ought Shaquille do at the end of the game?

Put his back to the basket, try to get as close as he possibly can, and turn around and dunk it. You know? And so it's a strength. It's a go-to. But sometimes our go-to's become Achilles heel or armor to the thing that we really want to do. So how do you untangle the head, the distance or the web from the head to the heart and to get more into that place that you want to communicate from? Like what process? Yeah, and I think it's instantaneous,

almost instantaneous for you. I don't know if I've ever thought about that. I don't know how to answer that. I don't know if there's an identifiable mechanism. I wonder if it is the little narrative that you have with yourself, which is like, that ain't right. Come on, man, be real. Or if it's like, oh, I know what I'm doing. I'm being the smart rich, you know? There's definitely both of those. It's both of those, yeah. And then sometimes I wonder if it's because you're a physical person right like ultras and like long distance type stuff pool and

running and trails and whatever i wonder if you use your body and the intelligence that you hold there to shift to adjust to get down into a less heady way of communicating or a more heartful way of communicating? And obviously the idea is integration, but... Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think my head gets in the way, right? And if I was out running and I just walked in here fresh off a run, I'm sure I'd be more grounded and present and speaking more from the heart, right? I have to, I have to take actions to get my head to quiet and get out of the way so that I can be honest, but I do catch myself. It's like, am I really being honest? And you know,

as somebody who does a lot of interviews and has been interviewed a lot, it's very easy to default to a certain story that you've told a million times. And I've been on stage in the middle of giving this keynote that I've given a million times. And I'm like, is this even true? I've said this so many times. I think it is. But when it becomes rote, you become disconnected from it. So I'm always trying to get back to what's real. Yeah. I want to play that out because I don't think I've ever talked about this, but there is a, so there's the real experience that took place, and then it's your interpretation of that experience.

And then each time you remember it, there's a little bit of a distance and a little bit of a mutation. And then when you try to capture it with words, there's a bit of a deeper space and a bit of a mutation to it. And then as you go to, there's a little parts that you want to embellish a little bit or pull back a little bit or whatever. So I have the same question. Did I actually fill in the blanks? I started telling the story about whatever. Is that exactly how it went down? Or did I actually fill in the blanks? Like I started telling the story about whatever. Is that exactly how it went down? Or did I find myself migrating away from the truth accidentally?

And so memory is not actually a very reliable source of information. And what is true? Is your interior emotional relationship to an event more true than what actually transpired if you had videotaped it? You know, in listening to your book, you tell the by writing your email on a business card and all of that. And I was thinking as I'm hearing this, I'm like, I bet he's told that story a lot. Like, I wonder I wonder if that's actually how it went down only because. And I'm projecting because there are certain stories that I tell that you then become distant from. I love that we're talking about this. One,

thank you for picking up the book. I appreciate that you... I loved it. Yeah, thank you. My friend, I shared that story with my friend, and he goes, what are you talking about? He's like, that's not how it happened? That's not how it happened. That's not how it happened. Yeah. So, you know, what's up, Peter?

And so he had a different experience. Now, it was a small trauma for me. And to this day, I'm not even quite sure that the legend that I was afraid of that was in the front row was actually the legend. And so I actually like the art of the story as much as I can feel it in my body when I tell it, like that nervousness, you know, it's still in there, which is cool, you know? I think that people think that we're not supposed

to hold things or like be reminded of a physiological experience from something in the past. But I actually like it when I can tap into it. Yeah. There's a thing that happens with psychologists sometimes that we become so attuned to the hardships of being and the emotional experiences of others that we in some ways deaden our nerves so that we can deal with the depth, which is the exact opposite of what we want. We want to be more attuned and animated in the way that we create more space so we can go deep and feel with them. So I actually like when I, I don't know where I'm going with this, but I like when I can feel some of my past experiences kind of come to life.

But you're feeling it. There's a very tactile experience to that for you. So it's true for you, irrespective of how your friend saw it differently. Yeah, that's okay. I can get down with that, like multiple narratives, you know, multiple experiences, you know, the same thing. This actually happens just about every night with my wife and I talking about like, you know, the stuff we did during the day, you know. So yeah, for sure. Okay. So when you think about what you're craving more than anything, and I can hear the Buddhist side of the narrative saying, craving is the source of suffering and

letting go and all, okay but what if you entertain that for just a little bit what are you craving craving in its pejorative sense yeah acceptance probably more than anything a subset of that being approval and everything that gets packed into that probably. And I'm sure it's a function of trauma as a child and not feeling like I fit in or feeling like I was an outsider. You needed high performance. Your model that you were building at a young age, you needed to perform well to be okay. Yes. And then at some point, you really realized that the cost was too high for no matter what the outcome, success outcome was going to be, it was an empty experience. Yes.

But I still am a very driven person. Oh, yeah. And I approached the podcast and everything else that I do with a high performance mindset. But hopefully calibrated a little bit in a healthier direction. When you describe a high performance mindset, I think there's about six that if we were to create emblems for them or descriptors of them without saying any of them, like how would you describe your ideal performance mindset? focused, intentional, and defined by a work ethic, like a capacity to handle a level of volume that most people can't, and to do that with grace, and an ability to patiently persevere, like to play the long game. There's the ultra in you. Yeah.

It's all an ultra endurance of that. It is, isn't it? Yeah. Last little pivot here is when it comes to being white in a world that is charged, in my mind, for a really necessary conversation for us that are humanists and say, this call to action is real and it's right. Okay. So being white right now, being a public figure as you are, and having care for how other people

are experiencing their life. And I know you've been talking about it. You know, this has been an important conversation that you're engaging in and holding. So what is it like right now for you to explore this and to explore publicly and to also be a white male? It feels, well, exploring it and talking about it publicly feels not only like the right thing to do,

but a responsibility that I take seriously. It's a new experience. There's a level of vulnerability with it as well, because I'm not as well versed in this world as I am in some of the other areas that I explore on my podcast. But this is a very important moment right now. And I think it's incumbent upon someone like myself who has a platform and who also is white and comes from a place of privilege to leverage that platform to participate in the conversations that we need to have around race. And it's delicate and it's sensitive. And I'm not always going to do it right or say the right thing or express myself in a manner that's going to be acceptable to everybody.

So it's very much an experiment in thinking out loud in an environment that is fraught, right? And everybody's sort of on edge and ready to take people out for saying the wrong thing. So I do it with some trepidation, but also with a certain level of conviction. As a white male, I come from tremendous privilege. Right out of the gate, I had advantages that most people don't have. And recognizing that and trying to figure out with that how to best effectively communicate around these issues has been something that has challenged me. And I don't know that I'm doing the greatest job at it, but I'm committed to trying. And so I've been endeavoring to have more and more people of color on my show to share their experiences and to really do it, not just from a place of compassion,

but as a learner, like I want to understand where my blind spots are. And so I've challenged all of these people, like, tell me where, what I'm not seeing, like, what, where is my worldview not aligning with the way that you see the world? And, and I think in doing that, I'm hopefully, you know, expanding the aperture for, for everybody who's struggling with how to understand what's going on right now, so that we can move forward as a, as a unified, cohesive nation in a moment that could potentially fracture us. Yeah, I feel the fracturing too. I've been surprised by some of my friends who, I don't think, I think that this might be a true statement is that, but it's going to be wide sweeping. So I leave myself open for lots of error in here that, uh, not all, if you, if you're, if you're down with Trump, it doesn't mean that you are, um, a racist, but all racists are down with Trump. Now, I hope I'm not offending you here. I offended somebody just now. And so I'm trying to sort out how you are navigating this narrative between your community

and upsetting people that have differing views about the importance of race or not. And people that are clearly coming out of the woodwork in your community, they're saying, what are you, what are you doing? Like, this is an overblown political thing. And, and then other people like, good job. Like, you know, I think that it's so charging for people right now that the safe and mistake to make is to keep quiet. Robin DiAngelo came up to the Seahawks and she wrote White Fragility. And she came up to the Seahawks and had a radical conversation. One of the things that she kind of dropped at the end, and I say radical, thoughtful, deep, rich. We were sharing as a team, learning

as a team. She says, white people have conversations with white people. Also have conversations with your people of color. BIPOC is the word I was looking for. They're different conversations, she says. People of color. BIPOC is the word I was looking for. They're different conversations, she says. So when you want it to be emotional and rich and exploratory, have those conversations with your white friends. And I was like, whoa. And she said, it's different. When you're going to try to be a learner with folks of color, that they can't speak for all people of color.

They can talk about their experience. They don't have all the answers. It's like one person's experience. And it's a different conversation between races. And so it was like almost a little throwaway comment she made. And I was like, oh, man, that's cool. Because there's a backlash like, okay, what are two white guys talking about this race thing for?

Yeah. Yeah, well, it's a disorienting thing as a white male. Like, what is my role in this? And what is my responsibility? Am I supposed to just recede into the background because this is not, you know, this is not a war that I have experience with and let other people for whom this is particularly relevant take charge. You don't want to make

it about, it's not about the white man. It's just not, right? And yet, if you're in a position to shape or shift the conversation around these issues, what is your responsibility and what does that look like? And that's what I'm kind of grappling with. And certainly, 100%, there are plenty of people who are like, what are you doing? Stay in your lane. There's plenty of that out there. I don't tune in to you to hear about this kind of stuff. This is a place I come to get away from all of that out there. I don't tune in to you to hear about this kind of stuff.

This is a place I come to get away from all of that kind of stuff. And so it'd be very easy to just stay in my lane and do that same thing. But I can't look at my daughters two years from now and justify that move. I just can't. It is the right thing to do to stand up right now. And we need these conversations. We need this change now more than ever. It's overdue. And I'm just not going to be on the wrong side of history on this. And if that means that I'm alienating a significant portion of my audience,

then so be it. It goes to the, you know, the FOPO thing. Like this is, so it's like, all right, I'm in this crucible, but this is my opportunity to really challenge my relationship with needing to be liked and approved. What do I stand for? What is important? What is meaningful? Why am I doing any of this if it's not for the greater good? So all of that has to become secondary to the mission of trying to facilitate healthy,

nuanced conversations around things that matter. Because truly, and I believe this, meaningful conversations are the cure to these problems. You've experienced that in doing what we both do. And it's time to double down on that. Cool, man. Cool. What's the name of this segmented show? So it's a Rich Roll podcast is the larger show. And what's the segment? We call it like Roll On. I think I should call it roll call though i don't know we might you know he's like roll on so yeah every two weeks we do that although adam skolnick who i who i co-host with he just had a baby so it's gonna be another couple weeks gotcha yeah listen i want to say thank you for so much, the time and purposeful conversation that we had today, but also kicking me down this path and igniting the spark of figuring out the value of a podcast and the joy in it.

So I want to say thank you for that. And then just the way that you carry yourself. And even though we don't speak on a regular basis, like you're in my consciousness often. So I would say thank you for all three of those. I appreciate that, man. You are exactly where you're supposed to be doing what you're supposed to be doing. So I think your purpose, your values, all of that stuff is lined up perfectly. You are a fully integrated individual and you're truly a gift. So it's just, it gives me great pleasure to not only talk to you, but to kind of witness your work from afar. And I really appreciate who you are and what you do. So thank you. That's what's up. Thank you, brother. So where do we find you?

Richroll.com is the website at Richroll on all the social media stuff, the Richroll.com is the website, at Richroll on all the social media stuff, the Richroll podcast. I have a book coming out in November called Voicing Change. That's wisdom, timeless wisdom and inspiration from the podcast over the years. Pretty excited about that. Yeah.

That's about it, man. Oh, it's so good. Finding Ultra, the first book, if you haven't picked it up, two cookbooks with your wife. And then you said October? New book is November 10th. November 10th.

Oh, it's my birthday. How about it? Nice. Yeah, there we go. There we go. So yeah, so I'll drive people in the show notes or wherever to how to get to an early pre-launch. Cool.

Just when you let me know about that. So awesome, brother. Appreciate you. 100%, thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already,

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