Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Part 2: Journalist Cal Fussman on Questions, Storytelling, Adventure

Episode Date: February 24, 2017

In part one, Cal took us deep and he took us into many different parts of his life that were wonderful and surprising. We also had a banter back and forth about questions and responses to questions and the art of storytelling. In part two, he just takes us for a ride. There are so many wonderful stories that he shares with us and what I want to challenge us to do when we're listening is to listen to the art of storytelling. The nuances and the nuts and bolts of the story are important because they're fun, but see if you can go down just a level deeper or two levels deeper to listen how he's constructing and what he's really articulating through the storytelling craft that he's mastered._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Oh my God. And now he's coming in at me. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And this is part two of a conversation with Cal Fussman. And if you're new to this podcast, the idea is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery to better understand what they're searching for

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and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O us into many different parts of his life that were wonderful and surprising. And we have a banter back and forth about questions and responses to questions and the art of storytelling. And part two, he just takes us for a ride. And there are so many wonderful stories that he shares with us.

And what I want to challenge us to do when we're listening is to listen to the art of storytelling. The nuances and the nuts and bolts of the story are important because they're fun. But see if you can go down just a level deeper or two levels deeper to listen to how he's constructing and what he's really articulating through the storytelling craft that he's come so, so far along and how he's been able to refine that craft. So with that, let's jump into part two with Cal Fussman. Okay. So interviewing all these wonderfully big doers across the world, what have you learned? And is there maybe one person or one experience where you say, oh, you're able to somehow then lift themselves to a greater height. Those are the people I identify as truly extraordinary. And maybe it's just what I appreciate in life. i don't know how do you identify with that for

yourself the summiting and then the decline because i guess because i've climbed a lot of mountains and fallen a lot of times what are some of those moments that come to mind that are darker? It's not, like, when I look back on them, again, I'm not depressed. I'm not depressed, you know. It was all, I'm more curious. And I can tell you the story when I was 16, like Muhammad Ali was my childhood hero, and it made me think about wanting to become a boxer. Of course, I had none of his physical talents. My body was not his body.

But I went into the gym to compete in the New York Golden Gloves. I wanted to win the New York Golden Gloves. I had no idea how to fight. And I'm curious. I'm not a fighter by nature. I'm somebody who would say like, why, why are you doing that? And like, get, get them to consider their actions and maybe even say, oh, I'm sorry, as opposed to just want to punch somebody in the face. So I'm probably the last person that should have walked into the gym and said, I want to be a fighter. But it was my childhood and watching Muhammad Ali, and it just took me to great places. So I want to do it. And so when I go into the gym, I go over to a trainer. And I said, I'm ready.

I signed up for the Golden Gloves. Where do I start? And the trainer looked at me. And he had me go over to heavy bag. And he said, all right, hit the bag for a minute. And he's watching me. And of course, I'm telegraphing punches. I don't know how to fight. And I said, all right, all right, enough, enough, enough. I've seen enough. And he says, look, I can tell you have a lot of

enthusiasm and spunk and even some natural ability. But you've got to learn to fight before you go into the Golden Gloves. fight before you go into the golden gloves, because when you go into the golden gloves, other people are going to know how to fight. I can fight. Don't worry about it. And he just said, look, take a year, come into the gym every night. I'll work with you. And like six months from now, eight months from now, we'll start to put you in the ring in places where it's not even going to really be a winner and a loser, but you're going to get the feeling for it. You're going to know what it's like to go up against somebody who wants to take your head off. You know, we can spar with big gloves, but I'm talking about understanding

what it's going to be like when you get in there i said look i came to fight he says all right some other guy decides that he'll take me on and it's you could almost see now that i look back on it like the trainers looking at each other like oh man this is gonna be bad what a train wreck yeah but but i was so maniacal and so crazed and i was training like running in the morning running in the afternoon training at night i got myself an unbelievable shape there was like this fence around the school there were two schools that surrounded by a fence that was about six feet high. And I would like run around this area, just jumping from one side of the fence to the other one side, back, forth, back and forth, climbing it, going back. And like, I got in great shape and I could go to the bag and I would just wail away.

And a guy who won the Golden Gloves was watching me wail at the bag. And afterwards, he said to me, when do you fight? And I said, like two weeks. And he said, well, I don't know what's going to happen, but the crowd's going to love you. Oh, God. And I mean, I just wild, crazy punches coming from every angle. And so the day of the fight arrives and the guy who's supposed to take me doesn't show. And I have to go now like an hour and a half to get to the venue. It's at a parochial school that was very big. They had an auditorium that seated thousands of people.

And I have to find somebody to take me to this event. So not only do I not know how to fight, but I don't know any of the protocol. You got to weigh in. You got to do all this stuff where a manager would say, okay, this is the way it goes. I know nothing, but I get somebody to take me in. I find my, I find a guy who will like work my corner and I go get weighed in. And this, this other guy shows up to weigh him with me, Jesus Torres, and he's got like a scar from one side of his face to his ear. But the scary thing was, the really scary thing was, the way he just held out his glove, like to tap gloves with me and just said, Jesus.

Meaning, I've done this 6,000 times. This is what we do. And so we weigh in. Now I got this new trainer I've never seen before and who has no idea that I know how to fight. And so he's giving me like good, sensible advice. Like, I want you to go out there and I want you to just take a minute, just throw some jabs, move around, get a good feel for what's going on. And like in my mind, I'm ready to just rush this guy and unload haymakers on him. That's the way I've trained.

This is great. This is 1973 in New York. And there were fewer and fewer white fighters at this time. And when I came and the crowd was largely white. And so when I entered like the arena to walk to the ring, it was like, Oh man, the great white hope has arrived. Here he is. And the crowd's going nuts. And I get into this ring. They have no idea what's going nuts. And I get into this ring.

They have no idea what's going on. But in my mind, I'm just going to rush this guy and unload everything I can on him. And I got this trainer in my ear saying, be calm, jab, move around. And now I'm caught up in the crowd that's going nuts. And this guy in my ear, and I think what might have happened was I think I just became curious. Like I'm looking around saying, holy shit. You know, there's like 3,000 people cheering for me. And I'm looking around saying, holy shit. You know, there's like 3,000 people cheering for me. And I'm looking around.

The next thing you know, like the bell rings. I have no idea what happened. The next thing I knew, I see like four fingers over my eyes. Come on. Five, six, seven, eight. Oh, shit. come on five six seven eight oh shit like i'm down and like my father has brought his best friends to watch and i get up i get up at like nine and I can recall the next thing I can recall is like a glove coming back and then stopping because the bell sounded saved by the bell I was saved by the bell and so I go back to my corner Now my mind is clearing. What just happened? Oh, you got knocked out. And I'm realizing that I was kind of moving around the way this trainer had told me.

But that's not the way I fight. Go after him. You know what to do. Just level him. Throw everything at him. He'll go down. And so I'm sitting in my stool in the corner. And I'm like, I'm talking to do. Just level him, throw everything at him. He'll go down. And so I'm sitting in my stool in the corner and I'm like, I'm talking to myself as a writer almost. You know what to do. Go after him, throw everything at him. And the next thing I know, the referee is above me, like waving his

hands, waving the fight off. And I'm saying like, what's this guy doing? What's this guy doing? Why is he stopping the fight? And the reality is, is that, you know, he was saying, son, are you okay? Are you okay? And here I am, like talking to myself. And so what happens is, you know, my this is like terrible for my father you know have to see this and then take me home and and then everybody wants to know what happened and for

20 years like whenever something would happen in the house and somebody needed to make fun of me, the Golden Glove story came up. So you're beating people to the punch now. So what happened is I go on this trip around the world and I meet a woman on a bus, a beautiful woman, and I break my rule. I talk to her, and basically that's the end of the trip. We get married. She comes up to the States and can't speak English. And, like, one of the first things the family completely is determined to make her know about her future husband,

where her husband is his escapade in the Golden Gloves when he was 16. Some people have baby pictures. That's right. You get knocked out. So they can't speak Portuguese, but they've mimed this. She knows what happened to me when I was 16. And of course, she's trying to understand what you're saying. I have to translate, which makes it even worse. God only knows what she really thought at that point yeah so what happens is and this is why

like you asked me about this dark moments because look that would have been a dark moment me sitting there having to translate my worst childhood athletic nightmare to my wife who doesn't understand the language or doesn't understand English. So what happens is, this was one of the first pieces of outside information she's got about me. And I'm sitting, I'm watching TV and Julio Cesar Chavez is fighting, fighting Greg Haugen. And he cuts off the ring on Haugen, he hurts him. And it looks like the fight's about to end and it doesn't end. And I'm like yelling, like, finish him off, finish him off. And my wife looks over at me and like says in Portuguese, yeah, yeah, we know about you. We've heard this story before. You're the big boxer.

And now look at yourself. You've gained like 20 pounds and you're sitting fat on the couch with potato chips in your lap. And I looked up. I saw Julio Cesar Chavez. I saw my wife and I said, you know what? I'm going to fight that guy. She just breaks out into laughter. Just, are you nuts? Like, I know you're crazy, but like enough. So next day I go down to GQ magazine.

My editor there is a guy named David Granger who later became the editor at Esquire. And I say, uh, if I fight Julio Cesar Chavez, can I write a story about it? And he says, well,

uh, you may have to sign some waivers but let me talk to my boss his boss loves the idea and he said okay we we will like we'll pay you to do the piece and if if you need a trainer, we'll, we'll pay for your trainer. And if the fight's going to take place in Mexico, we'll pay your expenses to go to Mexico. But how are you, how are you going to get Julio Cesar Chavez in the ring? So first thing I do is I go down Times Square boxing gym. And I noticed since I was followed boxing back in the seventies, a trainer there who actually fought for a world

title, his name was Harold Weston. And I, I walk up to him and I said, Hey, Harold, how you doing? I need a trainer. And at this point, I'm 37. And he's looking at me like, you know, you look a little old to be getting started in the boxing. I said, yeah, yeah, but I need to do this because I'm going to fight Julio Cesar Chavez. And he's looking at me like, just get out of here. I said, no, this is real this is really like all right i can i'm gonna write this for gq he loved gq gq i said gq and i said look get get out of here anyway so he said all right I'll tell you what, come back tomorrow, like ready to work out. We'll see if you can pull this off.

So I come back the next day and he put me through like a four hour workout that was designed to make me quit. And I was crying. And I like literally could not move when i got home like i could barely get in in the door like i rang the bell and my wife literally caught me and harold had told me get some epsom salts and put it in the tub. And she literally dragged me to the tub and got the hot water and he up some salts and like dropped me in it. And they were making bets at the gym about whether I would be back the next day. And I was. Come on. And that's when he at least he thought this was the craziest thing of all they'd ever heard in boxing but since i'd gotten through that first four hours

he would go along with it and so the next thing i said, well, here, he said, look, Julio Cesar Chavez, like, can kill you. You don't understand. A thousand percent. And he said, like, are you going to do this with headgear? No, no headgear. Like training? No, no, no. Regular.

Why did you want to do this? Because, like, I wanted to wipe out this memory of when I was 16. It wasn't to prove to your wife. It was to really. No, this was obviously like, I knew that if I did something so over the top extravagant, that this would overwhelm the memory, no matter what happened. If Julio Cesar Chavez flattened me and I didn't get up for six minutes, that's what people remembered. He was in the ring with Julio Cesar Chavez and got flattened, which I could live with. But I didn't want to live with that memory of me at 16,

sitting in the corner, like unable to come out. So Harold is like concerned about my safety and he's starting to teach me to like move around and like, like maybe there's a way. And, and, and the thing about it is I only wanted one round with Julio Cesar. That's it. I just one round Julio Cesar Chavez, who at that point was like 87 and 0 with 75 knockouts. What was in it for him? Well, I didn't know what was in it for him. I just knew that I was crazy reporter. I needed to do it. And look,

a lot of people have heard of GQ. We'll do a big stories. We'll, we'll bring a photographer there. So it's, it's cool. And it's kind of, it might be fun press for him.

I go, all I do is really go around with me. So I come into train and Harold is like teaching me all these things to try and guarantee my safety. And I said, no, Harold, I don't want to fight like that. And I said, remember how Joe Frazier used to bore in on Muhammad Ali? I said, that's the way I'm going to come at Julio Cesar Chavez. I said, no, no, I'm not being part of this, man. I'm not being part of this. I said, Harold, look at me.

I'm small. I got short arms. I'm kind of like Joe Frazier. You got to get on the inside. I got a bob weave because I'm not going to outbox anybody from a distance. Let's face it. And I am going to come straight at him. I realized that when I got in the ring at 16, my head was disoriented.

And I was like, just moving around, not knowing what I was doing. When I should have been going straight ahead. So I was determined I was going to come straight ahead. And then Harold's saying, oh man, but he puts up a rope across the ring and he's got me ducking under it, bobbing and weaving. And like your legs just start burning. Like if you haven't done this after 30 seconds, your legs are burning. And he was just determined to get me to quit. It's one of the greatest gifts a boxing trainer can give somebody. Really? Yeah.

It stops them from getting badly hurt. Wow. Because they're testing grit. It's a psychological construct that if you, if you can't do the difficult and boring for an extended period of time, you might put yourself in great jeopardy. Wow. Yeah. Incredible gift. I had no idea this. All I knew is I just trying to reach out to Julio Cesar Chavez and I'm not having much success, but a friend of mine was a writer for Sports Illustrated and he had done a piece on Julio

and he had spent some time with him and it was a good experience. And he called Julio's manager and says, you know, I got this friend, like he wants to find Julio for a round and the guy said like are you sure and his name's gary smith gary said yeah he's like he's serious about this and he said i send him down so harold also knew that president of the world boxing council named jose suleiman who was close to julio as so this thing started to take shape and i like put in six months of training every day is until the point like early on man i was having this shit beat out of me and then by the end like i was in great shape and like I nailed a guy and he just like he started to wobble back and in training. Yeah. Yeah. And then you start to think, you know, I can do something. Yeah. I'm built for this. You know, if I get my shot in. And Harold's saying to Cal, Cal, look, look, you have no idea of the difference between

a professional athlete and an amateur athlete, number one. Like that guy that you hit, he was an amateur, right? We're talking a completely different dimension. And then the difference between the professional and the champion who's 85 and 87 and 0 with 75 knockouts. And basically, whoever he fights is pissing blood in a toilet bowl for the next few weeks. You're in a different realm here. He said, you are not going to land a punch. No matter what happens, you will not land a punch. Do you understand me? And I'm saying, Harold, listen, you're going to follow my, if you want to land a punch, you're going to follow my instructions. So he devises a plan. He says, this is what I want you to do. I want you to throw a

three-punch combination. Left jab, right hand, left hook. He's going to catch all three. I want you to move around. I know you're bobbing and weaving, but I want you to throw the same three punches again. He's going to catch those two. And I want you to do it again and again and again and again. He said, I want you to do this if you can survive. I mean, he may hit you and the fight may be over in 10 seconds. But his guess was that Julio was going to take a minute to just see what I had before he decided what he was going to do with me. And so Harold's saying, I want you to throw these three punches in the same water, same speed again and again and again, and let him catch them all. And that's exactly what happens.

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for 20% off. We go down to Mexico and we meet him. He's a very gregarious guy. He's wonderful. We go out running in the morning. His, all the people in his entourage are asking my wife if I've got life insurance. And I also, now I've got Harold, my trainer, the photographer, his assistant, I got an entourage here. And GQ had given me some shorts with the GQ logo and a robe. And so he's just training, but we do a weigh-in with the head of the World Boxing Council on the scales. And they get a bunch of kids on the streets and they let them into the gym watch this in Toluca Mexico in his training camp up in the mountains and now I'm getting in a ring and I'm in his best shape I've ever been in my life,

I step into the ring and I just said, I am coming at him. I am coming at him. Straight at him and I'm going to keep throwing. I'm going to do what Harold says, but I'm just coming at him. So you're going to do the combination. I'm going to do what Harold says, but I'm not backing up.

Okay. No matter what happens, I'm not backing up. If I get flattened, it's not going to be because I backed up and I'm not quitting on. Okay. No matter what happens, I'm not backing up. If I get flattened, it's knocking because I backed up and I'm not quitting on the stool. I'm coming forward. So they ring the bell and I come straight in Julio. Who's looking at me saying, what is going on here? Now he's moving around, just trying to like understand where this lunacy has come from because like i am ferociously going after him this is neurotic yeah this is like 20 years

of hearing that story over and over again and i ain't hearing it no more man oh my god so i come adam i'm doing that left jab, right hand, left hook. He's catching him. I mean, it's, it's pathetically easy for him to catch these punches and he's just moving around and I keep throwing left jab, right hand, left hook again, left jab, right hand, left hook. And he's catching it, moving around. He's kind of fainting what he may do and i do this like 17 straight times on the 18th time i go left hand right hand and it catches him right in the jaw. And he actually like stumbled back into the ropes. And then he looked at me like, it's on.

Okay. You asked for it, brother. Oh my God. And now he's coming in at me. And he hits me with a left hook. And I must say one thing about this. I asked. I wasn't wearing headgear. He wasn't wearing headgear.

The one thing that he insisted on, he didn't want to hurt his hands. So he had these gloves that had extra padding in them. And actually were protecting good for both of you yeah yeah but that was his sole concern and so he hits me with a left hook to the liver and it felt like here i was in the best shape i'd ever been in my life. And it felt like somebody had just taken one of those Hoover vacuum cleaner tubes and like stuffed it down my throat into the, my esophagus and flip the switch on the vacuum cleaner on. And my whole stomach was, he probably just tapped me. I mean, I have no idea what it must have felt like to get hit with eight-ounce gloves if he really had teed off.

But to me, everything came up, but I didn't go down. And I started throwing back punches and then the bell rang and I walked back to the corner my lips were blue I had exerted so much energy I had like delivered everything that I possibly could. But in that moment, I was walking back. I knew. I just did it. I just went around with Julio Cesar Chavez. And the great part, I don't know if you remember, right, it's about 13 years earlier. There's a famous fights between Roberto Duran and Sugar Ray Leonard. Of course.

Yeah. And so in the first fight, uh, Duran won a decision and afterward, uh, Leonard was furious that he had like fought the wrong strategy against Duran. And he wanted to get back in the ring in a hurry to avenge the defeat. In the meantime, Duran went back to Panama and just had a national party and gained like 50 pounds. And his manager came to him with a contract for the next fight. It was a very quick turnaround, but it was like for $8 million. And he signed it even maybe without realizing what it was going to take him to lose that 50 pounds. And just before the fight, he manages to cut the weight. We don't know, nobody really knows what happened, but apparently he went and just gorged himself after the weigh-in. And then in the ring that night, he couldn't get close to Leonard,

and he said he was suffering cramps, and he famously quit in the middle. He wasn't even getting, didn't seem to be getting hurt. He was getting humiliated. And his famous lines was no mas, no more. And the referee stopped the fight. And nobody who had seen this guy throughout his entire career could believe that this would happen, much less that he would say no mas. And it came to be like a defining statement in his life. And so when I'm walking back to the corner, like I've just accomplished my mission.

I've experienced, I've been in the ring with Julio Cesar Chavez for one round. Nobody could ever take this away from me. And Julio turns to me and says, Mas. One more? Oh no. You are so good at bearing the lead. And the great thing about it was I was able to look back and I said, C, Mas. You did. Yeah. And that was the last line of the story. And the second round, he just kicked the shit out of me. And, and Jose Suleiman, the guy, as he's really starting to tee off on me and Jose Suleiman, head of the world boxing council, like looking at the guy who's timing, like ring the bell, ring the bell. Cal, what a life you've lived. Oh man. It's been good. So like even my, I think what I try and do is turn my darkest moments into my lightest moments. Well, you know, you've also got mechanically underneath you, you set a vision, right? You had some sort of emotional component driven, I'm sorry,

an emotionally driven vision. I'm going to go do that. Then you did all the work to actually position yourself to do it. And then you put in the work to actually do the training. And that's all grit and self-talk, all that stuff you're talking about, the way you would speak to yourself, either getting in the ring or getting up for breakfast to go into the gym the next morning. All that inner dialogue is the thing that led you to be able to be the man that you wanted to be. Even when, mas, one more, even when your challenge was something that you wanted to be. Even when mass one more, you know, even when you're a challenge with something that you didn't think was there. And so the psychology, I'm listening to the story on the psychology underneath, knowing that you're painting this beautiful

picture on the surface about, you know, bearing the lead and keeping us hooked. It's like the whole thing is brilliant as an art and the way you hold back information to keep people engaged is the art that you have refined that's the art of storytelling yeah that is it you've you've certainly got it and underneath though i'm listening to the psychology that's led you to have these types of experiences over and over again vision clear goals inner dialogue that's strong curiosity the, which is two components, passion and perseverance to stick with the difficult stuff. And then, you know, the ability to do it over and over and over and over again. So like you've got this, the same kind of mechanical

stuff that happens for world leading, whatever you're, you're demonstrating through storytelling, your experiences as well. Wow, that's amazing to hear. Yeah, it's really cool. I always looked at it in much simpler terms. I never lose a rematch. Right, yeah. But there always has to be a rematch for a reason. That's so good.

Oh, good. Okay. I want to ask you about mastery. Okay. And I want to give you a kind of a, maybe like, you know, we've been going and I want to honor your time. I could keep going, but I want to go back to our original story. And I also want to know how you think about mastery. All right. I'll save the original story. That would be our wrap also want to know how you think about mastery. All right.

I'll save the original story. That will be our wrap-up. Beautiful. Because it's nice to bookend it. Beautiful. The mastery story, I was thinking about this since we last talked. And I thought, like, who's a true master? Who has told me about a true master? And what came to mind was a story I heard

from a baseball player named Buck O'Neill, who played in the Negro Leagues. This is for the days of Jackie Robinson, integrated baseball. And like at the time, the Negro Leagues had amazing players. It would sort of be like, imagine all of the black players in the NBA not being able to play professional basketball, but they had their own league. So Michael Jordan's there. LeBron James is there. Magic Johnson.

They're still there. And they also were selling out Yankee Stadium when they played in New York. And so this great storyteller named Buck O'Neill, he played first base for the Kansas City Monarchs. And he said, you know, people would ask me if I was bitter because I never got to play in the major leagues, the white major leagues. And he said, no, because I thought I was playing the best baseball out there. And he told a story that he loved to tell over and over and over. In fact, it's on Ken Burns' baseball documentary. But the beauty of the story is, at the end of it, he says, I've told that story like 10,000 times, but I never get tired of it. Because every time I tell

it, I'm 30 years old and playing in the World Series again. And the story centers on two masters. One pitcher named Satchel Paige, who was about six foot four. And at the time, everybody knew this guy was the best. He was so good that even in this era of segregation, he had his own plane and he would travel around with a team and play other teams, this was back in the day when baseball was very big in America and local areas had their own teams. And, and what Satchel Paige would do was he would pitch to these teams and he'd have all of his fielders like laid down because he knew that the batter wasn't going to touch the ball. Oh, yeah. So there's one half of the story, Satchel Paige.

Other half is a hitter named Josh Gibson. And when Buck O'Neill talked about Josh Gibson, he said like the world had never really seen anything like this guy. He was just brawny, had the strength of two men. And he described, like, when you're in baseball, you hear in batting practice the crack of the bat. And he said the first time he heard a unique crack of the bat, he ran out to see who hit that. And Babe Ruth was the one who had hit it. I guess he was watching from a distance.

And the second time that he heard that same sound came from Josh Gibson. So Josh Gibson was known as like the Black Babe Ruth, only he's playing in the Negro leagues and it maybe hit more home runs than Babe Ruth, but they didn't really keep statistics. But if you followed it, you knew this guy, Josh Gibson, was the Babe Ruth of his league. So you had the best pitcher and the best hitter for a time playing on the same team. And one day they're riding on a bus through the Blue Ridge Mountains. And Satchel turns to Josh and says, you know, they say you're the best hitter in baseball. And I know I'm the best pitcher. One day, we're not going to be on the same team.

And we're going to find out who's really the best. And so years pass, and they do get separate. I love this. I love this. I love this. And they both reach the World Series. 1942 Negro League World Series. I believe it's game two. They're both playing each other.

Kansas City Monarchs, Satchel Paige's team. Homestead Grays, Josh Gibson's team. It's the seventh inning. Kansas City Monarchs are winning 2-0. Satchel Paige is on the mound. And first batter gets up and hits a ball just down the left field line. It's just fair. And he gets a triple.

There's two outs. And Satchel Paige looks over at the Homestead Gray dugout, and he does some figuring in his head. And Buck O'Neill, who's telling the story, is the first baseman on this team. And he's seeing Satchel thinking about this. And so he walks over to the mound. And Satchel says to him, what a great question. You know what I'm fixing to do? And Buck O'Neill, the first baseman, says, you're going to get this guy out and we're going home. Satchel Pace says, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. I'm going to walk the next two batters

and I'm going to load the bases to pitch to Josh Gibson. Come on. Now go back. Who in the bus said one day we're going to be against Satchel? That was Satchel who said Josh. Okay, go back. Who in the bus said one day we're going to be against Satchel? That was Satchel who said Josh. Yeah, okay, got it. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Buck O'Neill, the first baseman, hears this. His nickname was Nancy. It's another funny story, but he says, Nancy, I'm going to load the bases to pitch to Josh Gibson. Buck says, don't be facetious, man.

Are you crazy? This is a World Series. This is the World Series. And seventh inning, game's on the line. And Buck calls out the manager, Frank Duncan. And says,

you know what this fool is talking about doing? He says he's going to walk the next two guys to pitch to Josh Gibson. And here's where you got to understand that this was a time and certainly a league of personal competition. You lived to be the best, to say you were the best. It was like more important than the score of the game. You, if you were the best, you had to prove it. So the manager comes out and he's listening to Buck go, go wild. They just see what this fool's fixing to do. And the manager looks at Buck and he says,

you see all these fans out here? They came to see Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson. Let them do it. Yeah. So, Buck goes back to first base and he's like, oh man. He's like the only one on the field who knows what's about to happen.

Satchel, walks first guy. Guy goes to first base. Now there's runners on first and third. Next guy comes up. And I mean, he's throwing the ball way outside. It's like intentional walks. Everybody can see what's going on and everybody's realizing oh man he just loaded the bases to get to josh gibson and the crowd's standing up going nuts at this point and as the second batter who was intentionally walked is going to first base and the bases are being loaded, Satchel's talking to Josh in the batter's box.

Remember that day in the Blue Ridge Mountains? Remember that day, Josh? Josh says, yeah, I remember. And so Josh Gibson starts to come to the plate. It is a big, at the time, a really big guy. And Buck O'Neill's just looking at him. He's like scared. Because he knows that Josh is like furious now. That he's just been like humiliated.

You're going to walk two guys to get to me. The best hitter, best home run hitter. It's like an insult. Oh, you couldn't have insulted him more. That's right. He's the best home run hitter in the league. The team was down two to nothing. Now, basically, if Josh Gibson hits a home run, the score's going to be 4-2 because he's purposely loaded the bases. And there was two outs. He could have gotten out of the jam. And so Josh starts to come to the plate.

Crowd's going nuts. Satchel calls time. Motions for the plate. Crowd's going nuts. Satchel calls time. Motions for the trainer. Jew Baby Floyd to come out to the mound and Jew Baby knows exactly what's going on. And it's great the way Buck tells the story. He said, I don't know why we called Jew Baby because he's black like me. Jew Baby comes out to the mound and he's got a glass

filled with bicarbonate soda because everybody knows Satchel's got stomach problems. And he takes this glass out to the mound. Satchel puts his glove on the mound, takes the glass and downs it once.

Gives the glass back to Jew Baby and then he belches. Belches so loud that Buck says, you could see the belch from the upper deck. And then he turns to Josh and he said, okay, you ready? Josh says, yeah. Josh is digging in.

And Buck O'Neill is, like, scared that, like, Josh is going to hit the ball so hard he's going to hurt somebody. And Satchel's talking to him. All right, Josh. Here comes a fastball. Three, two, one. There we go.

All right, Josh. Next one, I'm going to throw in the same place. Only it's going to have a little more pop to it. Pew! Pew! Right! Pew! Josh doesn't even get the bat off his shoulders. Satchel looks at him and says, now, you know, Josh, when a pitcher's in this situation

and he's got a batter down and an 0-2 count, he can afford to waste the pitch. He can throw a brushback pitch, throw it inside, toward your head. But I ain't going to throw smoke at your yoke. I'm going to throw a pee at your knee. Winds up. This guy is 6'4", but the way Buck O'Neill described it,

his leg kicked up. It looked like he was seven feet tall. Comes back. Deep right. Three. And Satchel walks off the mound. Chest out. head high, looks at Buck O'Neill and he says, nobody hits Satch's fastball. No, what a legend.

That to me is my definition of mastery. That is brilliant, both the story of mastery. That is brilliant. Both the story of it. So it's like I got this double kind of experience just now. Which is a masterful experience of a story. And then the actors in the story were both masters. Yeah. And in fact, there's a funny addendum to it that Buck tells.

Like a few years later, they're in the same position. Not in the World Series, but satchel's pitching. Josh comes up to hit. And this time, pitch comes in. Boom! Boom! comes in. Josh hits a line drive that just is straight at Satchel's head. And Satchel just like ducks and the ball

goes over his head by like a half an inch and it keeps on a line and rising and goes straight over the center field fence. Oh, yeah. And Satchel looks over to Buck O'Neill on first base and says, man can get killed out here. And so there you see the mastery of Josh Gibson as well. but those that story just tells me everything about what's truly inside a master and you don't have to say the rest of the things because you probably already know them you could you could probably describe them scientifically to me and teach me. No, but you're describing that resolve, that hunger, that ability to execute on demand,

all the things that we think about masters and wanting and craving a true test. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

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matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And one more question before we get to how you knew what you wanted to do. What are you craving in your life as a man? It's being revealed to me. At a stage, more than half of my life is over. And I have just, after all these years of

asking questions, now I'm speaking. And it's a very, it's a completely different life. Because now, when I was doing interviews, and I write up my story and it would go in the magazine, I never would see people reacting to my work. I guess it would be sort of like if you were Satchel Paige and you're pitching and there's nobody in the stands. Or they're there, but you don't get to see them. Maybe they're watching on TV, but you're kind of pitching in an empty stadium. And now I started to speak about the power of questions. And I'm actually, I feel like I'm helping people. If they're a business and they need to hire somebody, how would they interview better?

And people afterward are coming up and they're like hugging me. Some like are crying and it sounds crazy, but I feel in some ways that I'm 22 again, and I'm starting off on an adventure. I don't know where this is going to take me, but it may sound crazy when I say somebody's crying, but when a woman comes up to you and says, you know, you know, Cal, like I've been working at my job for a long time. And the reality is, is that if I measured the hours that I spend in my office and the hours that I spend with my family at home, the hours that I spend in the office would, would win. It'd be more. And what I realized when you were speaking today is that I hire the people that I put around me on the job. And I didn't realize that I should know the things that you know to help me hire people that I would want around me who are like my family. And there's tears in her eyes when she's saying it.

And it makes me, I don't know if it's, there is a craving to it because I want to see where this all is taking me. But I find that it's just, it's a lot like traveling around the world when I was young. I don't know exactly where, but I know that I'm connecting with people in a way I never did before. Yeah. You are a traveler. You're an explorer. Yeah explorer yeah right and that curious nature of yours has brought you from bus stops to you know private planes probably and that this maybe third or fourth chapter in your life is going to be marked by being able to share that's that's it i i suppose i was sharing in some way by putting out these interviews and this knowledge, but this is a, this is a much higher level. And remember we were talking before about this quality of feeling like an actor. When I get up to speak, that stuff starts to come out of me. It's almost like a one-man Broadway show.

And so when you say, what do you crave? You almost like crave the next show. This way I remember Al Pacino telling me that not like having a role is like an artist not having a canvas. So that does answer the question. I really look forward to the next time I get to speak. You know, as you say that, I think that for humans, for people to not have a story is like the artist that doesn't have a canvas or the actor that doesn't have a role. But we all got stories. That's right. We all do. And being able to articulate that story in a meaningful way is a completely different, is a skill set within itself that many people, I think, hopefully are going to listen to your storytelling, your ability to draw on your past, to tell stories that have meaning, and to elicit people's imagination is part of the gift.

You know, the first part of the gift we talked about was how your curiosity and authenticity allowed people to tell their stories. Now you're doing it in a different way by demonstrating what storytelling really is. That's, that has been the amazing part of it. Yeah, it's really cool. To see Larry King going from, speak, Cal, speak, to then seeing me on stage and say, what happened?

Where'd this come from? You know, part of me wants to say I don't want to know the story because this has been such a great story. No, you do want to know the story. You do want to know the story. And then the other part is like, no, no, no, we got to bring it story. No, you do want to know the story. You do want to know the story. And then the other part is like, no, no, no, we got to bring it home.

Yeah, yeah. No, because I think this will wrap things up for you. You've been so insightful, but maybe this is an additional thread. Brilliant. So we go back to that day in November, 1963. Teacher walks in the classroom. I'm seven years old.

And she's white as a sheet. We don't know what's wrong. Miss Jaffe tells us that President Kennedy's just been shot. We all get sent home. Find out Lyndon B. Johnson, the vice president, is now the new president after this tragic event. And that night, my parents are concerned about how I'm taking all this. Because basically, they're showing on TV pictures Everybody's seeing this. And it's not like CNN now where you'd watch it on replay, instant replay 38 times. Uh, but like you, you, you saw somebody's head get shot open

and I just turned seven the week before. So my parents were nervous. They didn't know how I would take it. And they called me over the kitchen table at night and said, look, here's the thing. This has happened in the United States before. Presidents have died while they're in office. And the system is set up for this to happen. That's why the vice president, the system is not set up for this to happen, but if it does happen, we've got things in place for the vice president to become the president. And we just want you to know that tomorrow morning when you wake up, you're going to come to breakfast just like you did this morning. Nothing bad is going to happen. Everything's going to be fine. This was a terrible thing that happened today, but you can

sleep okay because tomorrow morning things are going to go back to normal. I say, okay. I'm sitting at the table and I'm just thinking about all these things that have happened, and this guy, Lyndon B. Johnson, the new president. I start to think, this guy, Lyndon B. Johnson, I wonder if he's happy to be the president. He must have always wanted to be the president. He's got to be happy he's the president. He must have always wanted to be the president. He's got to be happy he's the president. But no, he's got to be sad because he's only the president because President Kennedy got killed. But maybe he's scared. Maybe he thinks they're going to kill him too. And so I'm trying to grip all of these different emotions that I feel might be going through the president when he takes the oath of office.

And I can't, it's like too much for me. So I get a piece of paper and pencil and I just start writing. Dear President Johnson, how does it feel and I write a paragraph describing all these emotions that I think he might be going through him but I want to know what what it felt like when he was when he took the oath of office the office, signed my name to it. And I've folded the paper in three, stuffed it into an envelope. On the outside of the envelope, I put President Lyndon B. Johnson, the White House, and then put my name and my address in the top left-hand corner, lick the stamp, put it in the top right-hand corner. And the next day, I didn't tell anybody about this

because I had no motive outside of wanting to know what he was feeling in that moment. It's not like I want to be Secretary of State or someday, or I just wanted to know. So the next day, I go out to the mailbox, drop the letter in, and two days later, I completely forgot about it. Time passed. Months passed.

About, let's see, six months later, my mom comes breathlessly running up the steps to her apartment. She's got an envelope in her hand. It's from the White House. It's a letter from the president. To Cal Fussman? Yeah. Dear Cal. Dear Cal. And it was written by his executive assistant, Juanita D. Roberts. And the coolest thing about it was there was a misspelling. Which indicated how unique it was. It wasn't like, dear friend, let me explain how the president, let me explain how I felt on this day.

It was dear Cal. And there were many cool things about the letter. One of them being the tone treated me like I was an adult or somebody. Because you can tell in the second sentence, it started with an answer to your query. And I didn't know what a query was. It had to be explained to me, but I knew that that made the smallest kid in his second grade class the biggest dude in the room, at least that day. And so the next thing you know, all the neighbors are coming over to see the letter from the president. And my mom was calling up the relatives and the school finds out about it. The principal wants to see it. And I knew through this experience of seeing all this commotion caught up and how everybody was looking at me that a single question could get me to the most powerful person on earth i couldn't articulate

that then but it was something that i knew inside. I knew the power of a question. And with that knowledge, the rest of my life proceeded in the way it proceeded because that was the track it was going on. What a gift. I mean, that same thing that you had when you noticed the power of a question at age seven you had it when you were 16 going into or whatever age going into the football wow look at people's responses exactly yeah and it's that same thread that we've talked about like that somehow that intuition that you have to be able to say, oh, this is what's happening.

It's really cool. It feels like if there's a superpower, that's your superpower. That, oh, this is what's really happening here. You know what? I'll tell you something. This is what makes me sad. Okay. Okay.

I can recall when we had the great recession and all the stocks started tumbling down and people were really scared like lehman brothers all these gigantic firms were going out of business. And somebody had just showed me how to use Google Finance. I'm a guy who never paid any attention to money. When I went around the world, the reason that I was able to master the art of interviewing is because I had no money, because it forced me to engage with different people every night. And for the first time, I had whatever it was you were just talking about, where I saw the price of Citibank like tumble.

It must have like started out at 40 and it was down to less than one. And I just, I had that same feeling in my gut. You know what? Now, now is the time to strike. Throw everything you have in on it right so of course like i go back to my wife you know like i'm gonna fight julio cesar chavez let's throw the farm on city bank it's at one and she's like please like you're crazy like everything's going out of business you're gonna lose everything and i called up some friends who like are in the business and they were completely freaked because they were looking at this very rationally, but whatever it was that you just said I had, I knew,

no, this thing, it ain't going out of business. And then like I looked into it and, oh, like the government of Saudi Arabia is part owner or whatever. The Saudi Arabian government ain't going out of business it's at one and so i call up everybody and say like city bank is at one thing and everybody's like walking around what do we do like throw it in treasury bonds like put it in the safest places and here i am saying bet the house bet the house on city bank yeah yeah and everybody's just saying cal cal don't don't don't don't don't do it oh man and then you know you just i didn't do it you didn't i didn't do it because it wasn't

an interview it was outside yeah you're cool that's's right yeah this was an area i did not know anything about my instincts told me but i is to your point before this is where i got scared when everybody said please don't do this And this is where I didn't speak up. And then I just watched it go to two, to three, four to five. Ringing your piss. And then to say, people started calling me and saying, you know, remember when you said Citibank? I wasn't that proud of my deal. You might look at that now. So I think to your point, when you do have a mastery of something, there's a comfort level. There's that comfort level for Satchel Paige to walk those batters to get to Josh Gibson because he knew he had the mastery. But I might feel like that in an interview.

I'll walk those two batters. I'll put myself in that situation. But even though I had the same feeling outside my area of expertise, that's when I did. Remember you were asking me, did you ever walk up to somebody and. Yeah. Lose yourself, which you ever walk up to somebody and lose yourself? Which you see some people. Yeah.

You see some people trembling to get an autograph. That's where I stopped and I trembled and I didn't do it. So I have that in me. It's just outside of the place that I felt comfortable. Karch Karai is one of the great ever to play volleyball and now coach. Right. Right. Olympian at beach and Olympian in indoor.

And definitely the greatest male, if not the greatest ever volleyball player, rivaling Kerry Walsh Jennings in medals and skill and all that good stuff. So I'm on the football field on the internal turf, if you will, up at the Seahawks. And it's Coach Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks and Karch Karai. And Coach Carroll is talking about what it's like to play at CenturyLink. It's one of the loudest arenas in the world. And it's known to have the highest number of false starts for competitors that come in here because it is so loud. And the fans are so wonderful. They're named the 12s. There's 11 players on the field. They're the 12s. And they really do make an impact.

And it's a beautiful community of fans. And it's hostile to come into the century link to play. And Coach Carroll's talking about it. And without skipping a beat, Karch Karai, great competitor, looks at Coach Carroll and says, I don't know about you, but this is exactly where I'd want to compete. I'd want to come into this place and compete against you guys here. I'm not interested in trying to go and have you come to my place for an advantage. I want to go into the lion's den and fight the battle there. Yeah. So that's the definition of a master. That's right. I share that with you because I heard that in your story as well.

Yeah, that's I love it. OK, where can we find out more about you and where you're what you're doing? And I think your business model is writing, speaking. Correct. And is there something else as well? Right now, it's it's pretty much those two. The speaking only started about a year ago. Okay. And people I'm actually, I put up a rudimentary website

calfussman.com. I got to make it look I got to. Listen, there's too many pretty websites that don't have any substance I thought we gotta put a little bells and whistles there you're good like people are finding you for the right reasons I'm sure that's good

calfussman.com two s's f-u-s-s-m-a-n and so we'll see. I'm really fascinated where the speaking is going because it's just allowing me to connect with more and more people. And I think you taught me something in this, that this phase of my life is going to be a sharing phase. And I'm really looking forward to seeing where that's going.

Yeah, for sure. And then do you have social media as well? I just started going on Instagram. I think I got two pictures. Oh, there we go. Yeah. I got Twitter and a friend started it for me like a year ago, but I didn't know really how to do it. So people were writing in and I just didn't know how to respond. I hope I didn't piss anybody off. So I really have to start seeing the world now as a young person.

Yeah, it's true. Yeah. If you want, no one has to do anything. But that idea of seeing it young is pretty cool. Especially in light of being able to have some roots and some wisdom and some insight and the ability to be grounded. That's one of the things that's tough to do young, but to have both is, I think, um, you know, it seems fun. Yeah. It's, it's really a beautiful stage that's approaching and

I think it's going to give me something that I haven't gotten from life yet. Listen, I've really enjoyed the time we've spent. And I'm wishing you all of the twists and the turns that are going to come at the next phase of your life. Because I think that you have an incredible capacity to have that awareness and that insight to extrapolate meaning and then to be able to share it with other people in fun, engaging ways. So I'm wishing you the flat out best. And whatever, you know, I hope that we can keep connected. Oh, man, we got to continue the conversation.

This is so good. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Oh, I learned a lot. Understanding what is at the bottom of some of these things that I've just kind of taken for granted, I guess. Yeah. So it's like my part of the conversation is I'm listening to like structure. Right. And the principles that are that-related to each other based on

some good science. And man, you've got an art to it is, is brilliant. So let's do it. Let's, let's stay engaged. Let's keep, let's keep it rolling. You can find this on iTunes, Finding Mastery, and you can go to the website, findingmastery.net. We have a community as well, findingmastery.net forward slash community. It's a Facebook page. It's a private page. And it is vibrant. People can be supporting each other on questions and like, they're going to talk about you for years, you know, on this, on this, just really an engaged community of people that are interested in mastery in their own life. And they're supporting each other. So there's going to be questions on that for you for sure. And so I can get on if it's private.

Yeah. We'll put you, we'll put you connected and they're going to have questions for you. And it's a really cool. That sounds great. Yeah. They're switched on for sure. And then, and then Twitter is at Michael Gervais for me. And then do you know yours? If not, at Cal Fussman. There there you go and then we also have instagram which is at finding mastery and yours i think it's cal fussman i think so i i don't know they asked me my passwords i never know them we'll we'll put it in the show notes not your password but we'll put all that in there all right cal thank you so much oh man this is the absolute delight it was just wonderful to meet you and hear your insights.

And I hope I'm hearing them for a long, long time. Let's go. All right. Cheers. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. Thank you. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.