Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Part 2: TEDx Creator Krisztina "Z" Holly on Innovation, Impact, and Manufacturing

Episode Date: March 16, 2017

Krisztina "Z" Holly is an MIT-trained engineer, tech entrepreneur, and pioneer. She was curator and host of the first ever TEDx (TEDxUSC) and founder of two university innovation centers at MIT and USC. Z hosts The Art of Manufacturing podcast and is Chief Instigator of MAKE IT IN LA, LA Mayor Garcetti's non-profit initiative to celebrate and support the nation's largest community of makers and manufacturers. In part 2 of the conversation, we discuss what is often overlooked about the manufacturing industry, how to truly make an impact on the world, and why curiosity, courage, and commitment are three words that embody mastery._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. People think of mastery as being the best person on the playing field. And for me, I get incredible joy

from creating my own playing field. And I don't think that it's something that anyone else has necessarily played before. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. This is part two of a conversation with Christina Holley. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people.

It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction.

In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal.

That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM

Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So

I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough and a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com

slash finding mastery. If you missed some of the intro on part one, Christina is flat out understands the process of innovation. And she's known, best known as the creator for TEDx. She's also known for the founding executive director for the Deschvande Center for Technology Innovation at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, as well as the vice provost for innovation and founding executive director of the Stevens Center for Innovation at USC. So she's got her own podcast called Art of Manufacturing, and that's on iTunes. And she's now currently building a nonprofit Art of Manufacturing, and that's on iTunes. And she's now currently building a nonprofit called Make It in LA.

This conversation is rich. We're jumping right back into it. I hope that you can find part one if you haven't already done so. So let's jump right into this conversation with Christina Holley. Okay, so now go full circle for us. Now you're at the, unless there's a couple other things to fill in, but I guess we haven't got a sense of like family life yet now. Like what, what is, what is your, what are your relationships look like?

Is it a close network of friends? Is it intimacy in pockets? Like what does your family look like? So my parents live in LA, not around the corner. So I wish I saw them more often, but they, but so that's, so I have a really good relationship with the parents. I'm married, no kids. My husband is an urban planner.

He's actually been helping co-produce my podcast, which has been really a fun thing to do together. Why podcast? Why of all of this at scale, enormous things that you've done, what attracted you to podcasting? I know it's so weird. It's such a, um, in some ways it feels like such a small thing, right? And in some ways, maybe I struggle with that. Now I'm taking a little bit of a detour, but it feels's, you know, their psyche and have conversations like we're having right now. And people will listen if you do a good enough job at it, especially because you can do it while multitasking while driving or working, et cetera. And I'm, I'm definitely a person of ideas, you know, and I,

I'm, I'm a pragmatist. And at the same time, I was just thinking the other day, I was thinking, I kind of miss academia in the sense of it's a world where you can live in ideas and you can think kind of really crazy thoughts. And you can't do that in video the same way, or you can't do it in – well, I'm sure the question was a lot broader. I think that I am creating this nonprofit called Make It in LA, but there's something about the creative process where you can create a platform the same way with TEDx. You create a platform for other people to tell their stories. And I just realized that I need to really focus on what I'm good at and what I enjoy doing. And that is creating that platform for people to tell their stories. I love it. And I'll tell you what's going to happen after you and I leave

this conversation is that I'll wonder, did I do you justice? Did I pull out the brilliance to be able to celebrate what's worked and what didn't work and also understand the dark side, also understand the light side, understand the process. So I don't know if you're having that experience. Every time. Every time. Every single time you have someone on, you're like, darn, I know that there's so much more there. And some people say, you know, you really should keep your episodes to 40 minutes. And I'm like, there's no way that you can really delve in. And sometimes what I do is I'll do an hour and a half interview and I'll cut out some things that are just boring, you know, and I still keep the essence of it. You know, I don't do a huge amount of editing, but it depends on the person, but there's no way that you're going to know you're going to get to

that really interesting stuff unless you have a longer conversation. Well, what happens in the first 30 minutes is people are doing the, um, the reporter interview and they know it's, you know, and it's, so it's like what, you know, it's not the curiosity. It's like, that's right. You're like going for certain things. Like I know these things about this person. I'm going to pull them out. That's right. Yeah. So, okay. On that thread, what can I ask you that we haven't talked about? Oh, I don't know. Gosh. When we leave, when we leave here today and you, and you walk out the door, you're like, God, I'm glad we talked about that, but we haven't got to it yet. Exactly. Um, I don't know. I think that, uh, I mean, I would, I would like to at least have a moment, an opportunity to just talk about why I'm focusing on manufacturing.

Great. Let's go. Yeah. I think that, uh, there's been a lot of attention put on tech, you know, and, and tech is sexy. I remember when I was starting my first company back in early nineties and this was, you know, I was at MIT at the time and it wasn't really that popular to be an entrepreneur back then. That wasn't really a common path. It wasn't popular to be an engineer back then. And I wished, I was like, God, I wish that it would be, I wish that tech entrepreneurs would be given the same rock star status that athletes and they are now. Well, right. So be careful what you ask for, because now, um, money has corrupted it. Uh, it's, you know, cause we all were very much

idealists and we were very much a meritocracy and, you know, the people, and people think of engineering as being very male dominated, but I think, um, there were a lot of really amazing women that I, that I was in school with as well. And it really was a meritocracy, at least at MIT. And I just feel like things have changed a lot. And so you want something to be popular, but you're not too popular. Let's hope that manufacturing doesn't go down that path. No. Um, you know, it'd be, it's, you know what it is. It's what really disgusts me about the whole, and I know disgust is a strong word,

but it does about the way about kind of the path of tech is that it's become a spectator sport in the same way that arts, not arts like rock and roll and athleticism sports has become. There are more people looking at tech and using it, laughing, you know, Gawker, for example, you know, and stories about the CEO and that CEO doing all these different things like who I could care less what that person did. And it becomes the headline story. And it's less about actually making a difference in the world. So that's a little bit of a side note. But it does upset me.

But anyway, why manufacturing? So manufacturing is the engine of our economy. 80% of global trade has to do with things rather than services. LA, most people don't know, but LA is the largest manufacturing center in the country. If you look at, yeah. And if you think of LA as being all about entertainment, but if you look at all the jobs in film and television, multiply that by four, and that's the number of people we have working in manufacturing in LA. So it's a really important part of our economy. And we get this huge economic multiple for every dollar invested in manufacturing, you get, you know, dollar and a

half added additional added to the economy. For every job in manufacturing, you make multiple other create other jobs that support it. So it's really important. And it does not. So one thing that I found when I was EIR in the city, we did the study, 1600 businesses across L.A. County. It is important that it's a county thing or a regional thing for me and the mayor, too. It's not just about the city. We found that there's an incredible diversity and richness in manufacturing, aerospace, food, fashion, electronics, industrial, transportation. It's not connected in the same way that Hollywood is incredibly connected. Tech has become very connected in the last five years in L.A. And so there's a real opportunity there.

We found that 58% of manufacturers have excess production capacity. Have excess? Excess production capacity. They could make more if there was a higher demand. Yeah. So there is a potential for connecting them with other customers. So for example, for contract manufacturing, there's a lot of entrepreneurs or businesses that want to grow that can't produce themselves. They don't actually have the production capacity themselves. So we need to figure out how we can connect that

ecosystem better, for example. So that's where I'm focusing is to, first of all, be a champion for manufacturing entrepreneurship. Like the fact that, and when I say entrepreneurs, I mean, anyone who's running a business that's, it could be a new business or it could be a business that wants to grow, that's introducing new products, figuring out how to get people to realize that manufacturing is sexy. It really is. It's different than what a lot of people think it is. There's many different faces to it. So by telling the story in the podcast, for example, I have people like the pioneer of urban streetwear, Carl Canai. He's been in business since 89. He really kind of created that whole fashion around that.

And he's still relevant. And he's relaunching his domestic brand, 100% manufactured in LA, after he had gone through a really bad partnership where he almost lost the rights to his name, his own name, for example. I have Stephanie Alves, who is creating denim for people with disabilities, which is really fascinating. I have other folks like Greg Steltenpol, who is the CEO. He was the founder of Edwalla. And he talks very candidly about the fact that it wasn't truly his choice to sell the company to Coca-Cola. On the surface of it, it was a huge success. And he gets this great credit for having created this business that $600 million acquired by Coke. But it didn't go in the direction he wanted.

He's a very idealistic person, really wanted to change the way people eat and consume, you know, who wanted, wants to promote plant powered food and beverages. And so he's trying again, and he's the CEO of Calafia farms. You might know them for almond milk and things like that. And I mean, they're already incredibly successful. Um, but he's, he, so, so just hearing the purpose behind them and what's driving them. A company that's Kabira Stokes is demanufacturing electronics and recycling electronics using people that were formerly incarcerated. So just really, I could go on. So you've got stories, like stories and stories of stories that you want to amplify. Why be part of your group, make it in LA? What's the advantage of a manufacturer or entrepreneur in that space being part of your group?

Well, part of it is to be a champion for the sector to get. So we're, for example, we're going to be hosting a policy summit where we're both sharing incentives that are both city and state and federal with the manufacturers, but also then hearing back from the manufacturers so that we can create a policy platform to promote it in Sacramento and elsewhere. Okay. Got it. Cool. Um, that's why you use the word liaison, uh, that, that we're a liaison. Yeah. You used that earlier. Yeah. Oh, I don't even remember. Yeah. I mean really a connector. So we want to connect the community and help celebrate the community. There you go. Okay. And on that note, you've been in it and you've studied it. No, no, you, no, maybe you didn't study it. You've been in it in the field of entrepreneurship and, and now you're amplifying

what's happening in manufacturing. What does it take to be a successful on paper, just on paper, like build a business that's doing good or doing, yeah, just build a business, right? What does that take? What are, are there three nuggets that you could share with us that you'd say, you know, guys, if guys and gals who are starting off, like here's three things to pay attention to? Well, I think that the thing that's most often forgotten, and it's really great that I am struggling through that entrepreneurial roller coaster now. It's a very different, it's a different journey now because it's a nonprofit. It's a little more personal. It's more grassroots than I had before. So it's a new experience for me. But I, it's how hard it is and that that's okay. I mean, you really need to, you never hear the stories of the ups and downs, the rolling up the sleeves, the individual phone calls that you have to make, the beating the bushes. You only hear of the success stories afterwards and it could take years to be that overnight success, right? And it's so easy to get discouraged.

And so I think that the most important thing to remember is that, uh, no, it really is that hard. And if you ever, if, if I knew how hard it was the first startup I did, I would have never done it. And I'm glad I didn't know, you know, you just don't, you're in denial. And I think, I think it's the same. I don't know for sure because I'm you're in denial. And I think, I think it's the same. I don't know for sure because I'm not, I'm not a mother, but I think it's the same crazy denial that women go through when they decide to have kids, right? Like you don't realize how hard the pregnancy and the childbirth and all this. And I think you forget there's this natural mechanism, you know, that women have the memory

loss because they would never go through it again to have the second kid. And as a neurochemical exchange, oxytocin that takes place that distorts and the experience as well for, for all the pro social content, if you know, in the case of oxytocin didn't work. Yes. Okay. All right. Um, so it's hard. It's really, really hard. It's hard. Now, last time we spoke on the phone, you were heading off to the White House. Yeah. So like MIT at the highest level, courted by the president or soon to be president at USC, developing TEDx, developing innovation centers, building your own, and courted, I don't know, courted, but invited to the White House. What were you doing there?

This time was a special. What were you doing? It was a little bit more like a celebration, really. It was, so I do know a lot of people in the administration and I was an advisor there for a while. So when did you fit that in to be an advisor to the White House? Well, advisor, I should say not to the white house? Well, advisor, I should say not to the white house per se, but I was in the, um, it was this national advisory

council for innovation and entrepreneurship. So I had the opportunity to be on this committee many years ago when I was at USC. Um, and it was really, it was, uh, just something that I was invited to do. And I, because of the, so to take a step back, I think this is a learning Yeah. Um, to somebody that I knew in the white house that I said, how do I help to get the word out? And it turns out that he was very much a proponent of this as well. And he said, his name is Tom Khalil. He is the most interesting, probably, probably the most powerful person in Washington, powerful. He would hate me to say that word that nobody's heard of before behind the scenes. He's just really good at doing the right thing, connecting people and making things happen and does not want anything to do

with a limelight. So it just amazing person. And, uh, he literally commuting from, uh, San Francisco, like East Bay. Like, yeah. When I saw him that first time, seven years ago, he said, I'm just going to do this for a year. He's still there. I just saw him last week. Anyway. So I reached out to him and said, how do we help promote the best practices and really encourage universities to be more like MIT, for example. And he said, well, would you write a policy paper? I, what I really need is I need someone to put that down on paper. And I foolishly or not foolishly said yes. I mean, it was a hard thing to write.

I fit it in. But I did it. And it was the result of that and then very proactively pushing and also leveraging the resources of USC's government relations, who was thrilled that I was interested in going to D.C. because most people, you know, were busy with it, you know, didn't see that quarter, what they're doing. I found that it's one thing to be an entrepreneur. And then it was sort of, I felt really privileged to be able to help other faculty and students start their businesses, but to take it then to the next level where you help other universities do the same thing, like really met a thing, right? Like it was really important to me. And I thought also for the, you

know, I thought it was really good for USC as well to be in that thought leadership position. So I put the time in and it was putting that time in to think a little bit beyond the immediate results. And I had the luxury of doing that. Like I just said, I'm going to add that to my plate because it's important. And that's how that happened. And that started the whole, you know, and I had the luxury of doing that. Like I just said, I'm going to add that to my plate because it's important. And that's how that happened. And that started the whole, you know, and it was that it was hard work, but so people would say many years later, because then tech commercialization became very, very, uh, very popular in universities. And then I'm sure people were saying, well, why is she there? Like, why is she on this, on this advisory committee with university presidents? She's not a president of university,

you know, and other business leaders. It's like, well, you know, you put the time in early on and you, and you give when you don't necessarily see that there's a benefit back to you. And that's what happens. And, you know, there are other times where I've decided not to do that. And I just, I can't always say yes. Right. But that was something I felt really strongly about. So that's why they had the South by South lawn event. Um, it was sort of this, uh, you know, spin out out of the South by Southwest Obama was really inspired by that. And so one of the four sessions that they had was on innovation in cities and they decided to focus on LA, which was really proud of that. And they invited me to

speak. And it was, uh, it was quite an amazing experience actually. Cause I had been to the white house a couple of times, but there's a difference between like, it's pretty cool. Like to be in the West wing and like, there's a crazy stuff where in the Eisenhower building, like all people just standing around, you know, having their meetings, just it's very energetic in there. And, um, and it's pretty cool, but this was a whole different feeling where you're walking through the white house with bands playing in the white house. You walk out the South balcony. Apparently I was told afterwards, like, this is really unusual that, that people, the civilians are allowed to walk out on there,

you know, and then everyone, not everyone, but I guess the people who are speakers and sponsors, they walk out onto this lawn, huge lawn. I think there's 2000 people there, you know, and just this huge stage. And all of a sudden I felt stage fright, like, Oh my God, I'm going to be speaking on that stage. You know, what did you do to, to work yourself through that? Um, it was, I went to the green room, sort of settled, kind of, um, took myself away from my, it took my mom, which was awesome. I was able to take her and also my best friend from college. She lives in New York. So she came down and, uh, I left them. I'm like, I can't be responsible for anyone else's happiness right now. And just took care of myself and went back there and just hung out in the semi air conditioned tent and took some notes to myself and just, um, yeah, then I got into a good place and I'm like,

I've done this a million times. I wasn't speaking. I wasn't giving a talk. I was on a panel. So it was, you know, like, this is silly. I shouldn't be that nervous, but I just needed to kind of have a little time to myself. Okay. And so you had awareness that you were too keyed up either in thought or, or was it your body or both? Both. Both. So elevated kind of activity in your body. Your mind was racing a little bit. You removed yourself so you didn't have to take care of others. That's a good strategy. And then you went introverted, wrote some notes down, and then talked yourself through using good self-talk, like talked yourself through a process to get you to a place like, wait a minute, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here.

Use the code FINDINGM FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood.

And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color

distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at fel at Felix gray.com for 20% off. Okay.

Golly. How come you, we haven't talked about, um, being a woman in tech and a woman leader in universities and a woman leader in innovation. Like how come, how come you don't lead with that in any kind of way? Ugh. Okay. So I, I don't like to, uh, but that said, I also now have a new appreciation for why it's important, you know, to, to, to have that conversation. You've had this model that it's gender neutral. It's like, if you get it done, you get it done.

That's what I thought. And I think I was very much inculcated in me early on for my mother. She always had, she had very little rightly or wrongly. She just had very, she has very little patience for feminism, which I, I actually now think that that's not the right approach, but, but that was in me from early age. My parents did not, it was not an issue in our family. My gender was not an issue. I think I was probably the son that my dad would like to have maybe, or, you know, like it didn't matter. Like maybe if I'd had a brother, it would have been a little different actually. So then another reason why being an only child was probably a good thing. Um, you know, I used to help him with, uh, when I

got old enough, he would let me help him with his projects he had a side business he he used to do laser light shows um and these laser installations uh this was back when lasers were cool you know really really novel um so that was pretty cool he had a like lab in his garage and all that so yeah it just wasn't an issue and I um I, um, I don't know. I don't know. So later I did, I did experience only in retrospect, I realized experience some, uh, how'd you call it? Sexism. For example, when I did go through the scuba instructor training course, there was a two stage, it's a one week, the development course, and then the exam for two days, a really intensive exam. And I was, at the end of the week, you get counseled by the head trainer, trainer guy. I remember his name, but I won't say what it is.

He counseled me individually. He said, I don't know, you haven't been a dive master that long. I don't know that you're ready to be an instructor. I don't know that you have the experience. I don't know that you know enough about the science and the whatever behind it. I think you should wait until later. And I went back to my colleagues. There's about, I think there was about a dozen you should wait until later. And I went back to my colleagues. There's about, I think there was about a dozen of us in the program. And I told them what he had told me. And they're like, are you kidding me? Like you were the one coaching us every night. Like every time we had a question about Boyle's law or whatever, you were the one

who was helping us understand it. This is ridiculous. And I said, well, what did he tell you guys? Every single other person, he said that, go for it. You're ready to go. Even like there's one guy who is totally clueless and he said, go for it. And you attributed that to gender. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and he, so I said, you know what, I'm going to do it anyway. What's the worst that can happen? And I aced basically, I think I missed one question on, on all like four of the exams. And afterwards he, he offered me a job. So that was like your first experience. And then your response was effort. I'm going anyway. And then, and then what you figured out is that results matter. Yeah. Okay. But sometimes not enough, you know, realizing now seeing how other people have been treated. Yeah. Okay. And then sometimes not enough, you know, realizing now seeing how

other people have been treated. Yeah. And have you had sexism? Have you experienced that level of sexism, uh, professionally? You know, I, in small doses here and there, and I think that it can add up, you know, and I think that if it, I think the, the worst part about it is the, it's, it's subtle and it, it impacts your confidence and then it becomes a vicious cycle. And I think that there are times when in your life, when you can be more susceptible to it than others. Um, but I think that for example, you go to a party or like a business, not a party, like a networking event and people sometimes a perfect example. I was actually being recruited for YPO, young president's organization, and went to a cocktail party where it was the first time I was meeting some of the members.

And I went with my husband, Pete, and I can't tell you how many times people would go up to him and ask what he does. Yeah. Okay. And then your response there. Oh, well, he's incredibly supportive. He'd be like, I'm just, I'm just an urban planner. Like she's, she's the entrepreneur, you know? And what would happen? Um, oh, okay. Yeah, fine. Or, oh, another perfect example. So I, this is, you know, sorry to happen um oh okay yeah fine or oh another perfect example so i this is you know sorry to interrupt this is a little bit like when the check comes at dinner yeah right and it's my wife and i and they seem to always hedge towards giving the check to the man they always give it to me i don't know why they really do seriously yeah they do maybe it's the fact that I have my credit card out. No. Oh, perfect example. I was at,

in Davos, um, the world economic forum. Come on. You keep saying like, this is unbelievable. This is why I was so excited to have this conversation with you. I can't, I it's on, like, I don't, I don't, I've never said this phrase kind of even out loud, like a bucket list. So I don't know where that just came from, but I, I can't wait at some point in my life to go and experience or maybe even contribute. But can you talk about Davos for just a moment? It's a crazy experience. So I got there early so I can ski with my husband. And we had some amazing skiing because nobody there is skiing because they're all there for the conference.

Go top level for just a moment. I think a lot of people might not be familiar with that. World Economic Forum is this organization whose goal it was founded by Klaus Schwab, who I don't know all the details of it, but really he's incredibly connected who decided that he wanted to create this forum really where, you know, world leaders like literally would be there. Prime ministers of, in fact, I think that year, the prime minister of Iran was there for the first time and spoke. It was pretty amazing. So, you know, and it's just an amazing, I feel, and let me tell you when I actually, you know what the strongest feeling I had when I was at the white house was not nerves. I was feeling this incredible sense of imposter syndrome. Oh yeah. It was horrible. And I'd never

felt that way to that extent. It was really crazy. Like, I mean, I felt it right, but not, it was like, what am I doing here? Can I, can I stop you for just a moment? Cause I want, I want to go to Davos. I also want to go to the sexism you experienced there. Um, and I also want to pull on this thread a little bit as well. I think it's important for us as humans to understand imposter syndrome. I do. I will never advocate to be fake about anything. However, there's a survival tactic that takes over as soon as people begin to get way out on the ledge. And the imposter syndrome is evidence. It's a psychological experience where there's a wondering if I'm going to be found out that I don't know what I don't know and that I've

just kind of faked my way into getting here. And if they only knew that I was nervous and a sham, and I don't know as much as that scientist over there or that practitioner over there or that entrepreneur over here, that they would not have invited me. And I think that experience that means you're on the edge in some kind of way. And I would suggest that getting on the edge is what builds capacity. But it's so dangerous for people because that can be such a real panic that there's a constriction that takes over. And in that constriction, there can be literally a self, what's it called? I want to say self-proclaiming prophecy. Oh, self-fulfilling prophecy. And so

all of that being said, I would never advocate that that is evidence that you're on the edge, but that could be at least one marker of being on the edge that you say, Oh my God, I'm going to be found out. Well, it was so cool when I was sitting after the panel and I was sitting with my friend from high school, from college who from college who I don't see her very often. Her name's Jenna. But we are very close. When I see her, it's like we have these amazing, deep conversations and we go through a lot of it. We realize we go through a lot of the similar things. And she's an astrophysicist and she had very different things that she goes through. But at the same time, they are common, certain commonalities.

And she shared with me a story about how she took a risk and she decided she didn't know if she wanted to do it. And at the end, she says, you know, I, for no other reason, I want to be a person that has that, that is brave. So even if it fails miserably, I can always cling on to that knowledge that I had the courage to do it when other people didn't. God, I love that because courage and or bravery, their skills. Yeah. We develop them and we develop them by taking risks. We develop them by doing something that's noble in the face of a challenge.

And so there you go. So that's, that's a psychological framework. That's a model to be able to work from that I value courage or bravery. And so if I value that, then I need to put myself in some kind of harm's way. And I think, yeah. And I think that we have failure all wrong. Um, I think that there's, yeah. So I think that you hear a lot, especially Silicon Valley, like reason Silicon Valley is so amazing is that we embrace failure and failure is okay. And, and it is true that in

some countries, like literally if you, if you have debt, you can't pay your debt, you're like, you can be put to death, you know, like your family is totally ostracized and we don't have that. So that's really important. But I don't think, I think that the most important thing about failure is having the courage to try again. So I had this crazy experience when, uh, you know, and I talked about jumping out of airplanes, right? After I left USC, I took a sabbatical and the first thing on my list was I wanted to get my skydiving license.

And on my eighth jump, uh, you're not, I never did tandem. It was accelerated free fall where you're with instructors or an instructor. They're there with you as you're free falling. But then the moment you pull your parachute, you're, you're on your own. So that was my last jump before I would totally solo. And I pulled the parachute and all of a sudden I started, started spinning wildly. I just, I could not so much. So I could barely even pull my hands to my chest.

And I knew pretty quickly that my, when I look up and there was just this wadded ball, the parachute never opened. So I had to cut away and then pull my reserve. And it was an incredibly exhilarating experience. I was so excited at first, you know, I, when I was flying the canopy, I was like, Oh my God, I can't believe it. I almost died. This is crazy. But, um, it took me, it was, and this is your first jump. Eighth jump. This is the last one before. Yeah. And I, I get down there. My mom's like, you never told me you were going to be in the red parachute. I couldn't, didn't see you. Like it was not my plan. Well, so I, and then of course, 10 minutes later, then I felt really sick to my stomach and I was really, you know, and I

had a really hard time on the next jump after that clearly, but there were several people, of course, by the time I even made it in the truck, you know, back already, the news had spread around, you know, the whole drop zone and people came up to me and were like, oh my god, I'm so jealous. What are you talking about? I've had a thousand jumps and I've never had a reserve ride. What are you talking about? You don't know if you could bounce back and if you can actually survive until you've been through that experience. So anyway, the point of the story being that you don't know that you can actually bounce.

You're not willing to take the risks if you don't realize that you can actually bounce. You're not, you're not willing to take the risks if you don't realize that you can survive. A thousand percent. Here's the, here's the ultimate kind of, I think mindset. I trust myself. I trust that no matter what is about to be in front of me, I'll adjust. It's, I think that that's the old, because that gives the incredible freedom to go for it. Because if you have this model that, listen, all the times in the past that I've been dealt heavy stuff, I figured it out some kind of way. Totally. And I've got some scars to prove it.

I've got some war stories. I've got some emotional dealings that are difficult. And I've got some celebrations. I've got some insights. I've got some wisdom about it. And so what I'm allowed to do now is because of the foundation of trust, I figured some stuff out. I can go do it again.

I can go find another territory or go deeper into the territory that I was first deeply afraid of. So that now, so when you said, you said something just interesting, you said, and the second jump or the next jump was hard, obviously. Oh my God, it was hard. For you, but some people it's not hard because it's like, Whoa, I can do that. And then here's what I've learned from you. And I know a lot of people at Red Bull, that's where we actually first met. And so that community, what I've learned from people that are in the

back country in the most dangerous settings, um, some of the most dangerous settings, less war that people are in is that the two or three week period after they've done something that's changed the way we understand what's possible, they've done something so quote unquote extreme that it shifts the nature of perception that that next two, three week period is really dangerous for them. Okay. So you shifted your model that you can pull your parachute, uh, cut away and, and work from the reserve. And what they do, what many of them do is that they do something so radical. They push the limit so far and they've survived and thrived and lived in it that they could think that they've got this superhuman experience now. And so they become a little bit less careless. I tell you, I would

notice myself driving much more recklessly on my way home from skydiving. That's right. That's exactly it. So the two, three week period or for you, the two, three minute window after it becomes significantly more dangerous because the mundane is not as stimulating. Yes. You're like the Hurt Locker. Yeah, right.

Yeah. I could totally see that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day and Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my

family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas crawl into bed under their sheets and my nervous system starts to settle they also offer a 100 night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding which tells me tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating if you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code finding mastery for 40% off at cozy earth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is finding mastery for 40% off at cozy earth.com. Finding mastery is brought to you by Caldera lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things.

And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in.

A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery.

Okay. Go, can you go back to, let's, let's move through sexism in this way. Can you tell that this generation, the next generation who's ever listening right now to us about some sort of nugget or wisdom or insight for women? And it's something I could never offer. Like what, what would you suggest that women pay attention to, to be successful? I don't know the full answer. I mean, I think that there's, um, full answer, of course not that, but the, uh, there's two, I think trains of thought or schools of thought on this. One is that the world is sexist and the world has to change. And then there's the school of thought of the women need to change the way they're, so the whole, you know, lean in philosophy, they need to lean in. And obviously it's a combination of the two, right? And I think that blaming the victim doesn't help.

But women are in a really interesting conundrum in that if you're too strong, too assertive, there's a double standard applied to women. And that is a problem. And at the same time, there's all sorts of memes and jokes about how you could be less, there's an article that I read recently that was like, how you can be less offensive as a woman in the workplace kind of a thing. And then they have all these, it's totally tongue in cheek. It takes a while before you realize that these are all completely tongue in cheek. Like just give, you know, make sure that the person that you're with

makes them think it's their idea and let them run with it. You know, that type of thing. So it is an incredibly difficult line sometimes to follow where you are assertive enough that you can, not that you get your way all the time, but you don't let people get away with bullshit, you know? And at the same time, you are kind enough that people don't feel threatened. And I think that men could benefit from that too. I think that sometimes it makes me angry. I don't know if you were at actually the most recent Red Bull event too, where I think I stood up and said, well, why is it that, why is it that women know, you know, that somebody commented that no woman stood up and did the sort of grab the mic and talked about it. And I was thinking, well, why is it that maybe it's the fact that we don't listen enough? We as a group and that we

don't allow for different points of view. And so this is not in different styles, right? So I don't think this is just a gender thing. There's also the whole introvert extrovert thing, right? We value extroverts more than introverts. So if you don't fit into the standard stereotype, whether it's male, whether it's extroverted, whatever, sometimes you have a hard time being heard. So I think that part of it is being yourself. And at the same time, just don't, don't let people get away with stuff, right? And, but you can do it in a kind way. You can do it in a way that doesn't threaten too much. And I don't think that I get it right. A lot of times, you know, I think that sometimes I could be too conciliatory. I come across as being conciliatory

when in fact, in the back of my mind, I'm like, this person's not going to get away with this, you know, but they may think that they can walk all over me sometimes. So, but I think in general, I think that that's an important thing is it's a style issue where you can be feminine, you could be masculine, you could be whoever you are. And at the same time, no, when push comes to shove, I'm going to be heard. I love it. So the journey of self-discovery to know who you are and Epictetus, one of the great stoic philosophers said, I'll butcher this, but I'll make it modern is that know who you are and dress accordingly. And so you got to know who you are first. And that journey of self-discovery is really important. And then the second part, and I want to see if I can capture this in something I think many people resonate with, but you're talking about grace and strength together.

Right? So grace is that loving, kind, graceful, either articulation of words or movements, but having that strength and conviction right behind it. Okay? That is what is so attractive in physical form. Any sport that you look at that there's, there's some sort of grace, they make it look easy and eloquent, but there's this incredible power and strength behind it. It's rad. For some reason, I'm, I'm deeply attracted to that. And it's not gender. It's both genders, right? It is beautiful and amazing because you capture that light in the dark, the heavy and

you know, the light, light in different ways now, but that, that combination of the two is so beautiful. And I think that's what you just articulated, which is, I don't know, for me, definitely gender neutral. Yes. And I think that as a society, we too much value the, um, a certain, sometimes a certain approach or kind of bull in the China shop approach. And I think that we're really missing out as a society. So I think that there's, and more and more studies are showing that businesses that are women led or have women on the board are more diverse teams that are more diverse or more successful. In fact, uh, that's good. That's being published right now. And there was a, in fact, that's good. That's good research that's being published right

now. And there was, in fact, I just saw recently, and I would have to dig it up, but that just over the last three years, I think businesses that are women and minority led created something like three and a half million jobs in this country. And then businesses that were led by, or no, sorry, they accounted for like a crazy percentage, like two thirds or three quarters of the job growth, job creation in this country. Whereas white male led companies actually shed 2 million jobs. Shed? Yes. So if we're also looking at creating economic growth, jobs, et cetera, in this country, we need to look at diversity. We need to look at

different faces than we're used to. And that's one of the things I hope. So in our study for manufacturers, we found that almost half of the businesses were minority and women-led businesses that were engaged in this. And I think that we have a real opportunity to help change this stereotype that we have that entrepreneurship looks a certain way. We're really not doing ourselves a service as a society if we don't include those voices. I mean, seriously, if you're going to be serving half the country, you know, women or minorities, why you should, you probably are going to be better, more successful if you're from that background. Clear logic. Yeah. Really clear logic. Yeah. Okay. Um, is there a phrase that cuts to the center of philosophy, if you will? Is there a phrase that cuts to the center, a philosophy, if you will, is there a phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most? What I understand most or just what drives me?

Yeah. The guide your life. Yeah. Um, all things being equal, take the path of greater, greatest adventure. You've lived that. You have lived that. All things being equal, take the path of greater adventure. All things being equal equal take the path of greater adventure. All things being equal take the path of greatest adventure. Greatest. Is there a word that cuts to the center of who you are? One word? Now you're really going at it.

Three words? Sure. I want, I mean, I think for the greatest success, I would say you need curiosity, courage, and commitment. Curiosity, courage, and commitment. Beautiful. I don't always exhibit those, but that's when I feel like I'm at my best. And is there a word or phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most? What I understand? Impact? Making impact. Yeah. You've demonstrated that as well. So, okay. So if I want to impact as many people as I possibly can. How would you, how would you guide me in that process? Let me, let me share what I want to do just for a moment. What I want to do is help as many people

as I possibly can understand the mechanics and the process to be present. And if we can become more present and literally quiet our mind to be here now, we'll touch, we'll reveal insight and wisdom from within and we'll touch the beauty of the world. And from that is an accelerant to do move towards our capacity. Okay. So that's what I want to do. Help people be more still and quiet so they can be here now. And we have to use our mind to be able to do so. So that's, that's where I want to make impact with, uh, and a number of one to a number of 1 billion, whatever it might be. Do you have any kind of big thoughts? Well, I'm going to maybe sound like I'm contradicting

myself, but I also feel like, you know, you got to think big, but act small. Right. And I think that there's a lot of talk these days on, Oh, everything you do has to touch a billion people or it has to scale. And I'm all about scale. Right. I think that's important, but at the same time it starts small. And I think that having the first starting with the understanding at the real granular level, really understanding it deeply, having those individual experiences, whether it's you yourself as the high performance person working with people that are high performance, like going through that process over and over again, iterating, seeing it in its different forms. And it's that you internalize that experience. It's not something that you can read in a book.

It's why I do a podcast as opposed to, I taught at USC for a little bit, you know, innovation, et cetera. I think, uh, it's one thing to, to lecture, but I was really, really, it was very important for me, for the students to experience the feelings of innovation, which were not comfortable. They did not always like me for it. I'm hoping that in 10 years, they're going to appreciate it. Thank me for it. Uh me for it. But it's really, it's that iteration, that small, not failure, but just the iteration and the reworking, reworking. So start there. And then over time, think about different ways that you can leverage, whether it's technology, whether it's crowds, partners.

I call it crowd scaling in a sense. whether it's technology, whether it's crowds, partners, I call it crowd scaling in a sense. So instead of crowdsourcing, you're actually using other people to help spread the message. TEDx is a perfect example of that. Tupperware was an early example of this, right? Like when you get these, at the time, women who would have these parties in their friends' houses,

different kinds of churches are incredibly effective at this, right? Where the ones where they allow the, I'm trying to remember the Salback church, you know, where you'd have the groups in different people's homes. So you don't all have to come to one place to experience this. So that's one mechanism, right? But through partnerships, people who have a common goal, you have to give a little bit, you have to give up a little bit to make that impact. You can't own it all. You can't control it. And it's hard. I'm a control freak, to be honest. So this has been a little bit of a, you know, my life has been this interesting as I move on, like, how do you balance this desire for being perfect and really having high standards to making that impact? Okay. I'm going to have to re-listen. I love all of that because that crowd sourcing

versus crowd scaling. Yeah. So going where other people are naturally going and being part of those communities. They're leveraging their, their desires and then harnessing that for creating a mechanism for them to make the impact. Right. So they on their own might do a little bit of it. They may have an interest in that, but TEDx is a good example where you now create a licensing model where you're like, okay, this is the format. These are the rules. These are the, these are the, you can color outside those lines, but you have to color inside these lines and having a brand around it.

For example, that's one way of doing it. You want to have, keep control over certain elements, probably the brand, for example, maybe not. It depends on what you're doing. Certain things you have to keep constant. So it's like an actual platform that has value. People don't want to participate unless they don't see that there's some value of being part of it.

Cool. Brilliant. Okay. Last couple of questions. Thank you for all of this. Yeah. Are you more street savvy or analytical? Oh gosh.

I don't know. Weird. Great question. I would say, oh, I really want to say both, but I guess my, my roots are more analytical. Do you prefer a slow paced environment or fast paced environment? Fast paced. That's an easy one. That's easy. I tend to be two minutes late to everything because I like push the boundaries of everything, you know, which is not always does not always leave room for error.

But at the same time, you pack stuff in. Right. Yeah. Where would you score yourself on intellectual competitiveness? The need to share ideas and challenge other people's ideas when you think that they're wrong? I think that that's shifted for me a little bit. Oh man, I used to be very intellectually competitive. Okay. I think that I now really appreciate different points of view and really as much as I seek to be understood, I really want to understand other people as well. So it depends on the topic. I think self-critical or self-positive. Oh my gosh. I, I've become more and more self-critical with age, more self-critical.

A lot of people say it the other way, like they were really critical at a younger age and then they've just kind of softened into stuff. So you're, you've, you've gone the other way, becoming more self-critical. You know, I think that you go through phases in life, right? Um, but I would say that, uh, in general, I've been positive, but I'm very, I'm very much an optimist, but I'm also have very high standards for myself. So I've, I've both. Okay. Fast decisions or slow decisions. So you, you think. I do. And I sometimes to my detriment, um, I think that, however, I say no reason to make a decision today that you can make tomorrow because you will always have more information

tomorrow. Uh, not totally true. I think that, uh, I would say that there's, I tend to revisit to revisit decisions and I try to only do that when there's new information. But I do believe it's really important to take that new information into consideration. Pressure comes from? My high expectations of myself. And so more internal? Pressions are more internal for you? Yes. Okay. And then literally the last question is how do you articulate or think about or describe or define whatever word you want to insert there?

The concept of mastery. I don't know that there is such a thing as mastery because I feel like it's a process. Right. And I think that it's a constant evolution. And I think that if you ever consider yourself a master, you've just completely become stagnant. And if you are better than anyone else at something, you have to keep pushing the envelope. I mean, somebody else will come along and probably do you one better anyway. Right. But I think that redefining the first step is to be really good.

Over a lot of times, people mastery, people think of mastery as being the best person on the playing field. And for me, I get incredible joy from creating my own playing field. And I don't think that it's something that anyone else has necessarily played before. God, I love it. Cause that's what you're doing right now. Yeah. That is what you're doing. Okay.

And it's hard. It is. I know. Um, yeah. What, where can we find you? You can find me at make it in la.org. If you want to listen to the podcast, let's makeitinla.org slash listen. Oh, okay.

Easy. Yeah, that goes to iTunes. We're also on all sorts of other players too, so just go to the website. And my Twitter is Christina Hawley with a Z in there. But you can also go to WeMakeIt it in LA is what Twitter and Instagram. We, we make it in LA. Yeah.

Brilliant. So Christina Holly. Yes. Uh, K R I S Z T I N a Holly. I know it's a terrible social media handle cause nobody can spell it. K R I S. K R I S Z T I N a H O L L Y. So that's where the Z comes from. Everyone calls me Z. So

easier to spell. Any questions for me on the other side of this? Oh man, there's just, uh, I would love to chat for hours about, you know, how do you, how do you turn that, the fire in the belly into something, you know, aim it in the right direction. You know, I think that that's a, yeah, that's a long discussion. I think the first thing though, is have the fire, figure out where that fire comes from. And the second is once you've identified that you've, I think we have to compete on the fear and fatigue scales, right? So fear gets in the way of going for it because of all the analysis of what could go wrong. And then the fatigue thing, just running too hard without recovering certainly gets in the way of the fire. So that fire in the belly is this rad, competitive, beautiful spirit of the human expression to go for it and to care and stand for something. And when we stand for something, whatever that thing is, the really cool thing is nobody can ever really take it away from us. Once you're clear about what you stand for.

And once you're clear about the direction you want to take your life, that's what the fire really is. Those two components. It's only your fear and your fatigue that get in the way of it. Yeah. And so that's why that process of getting those two things, right? Fear is like, it's a conversation we have with ourselves. So having great awareness of the inner dialogue, like you did at the White House, great awareness of the inner dialogue and then shifting the inner dialogue. And then the other part is the fatigue is, you know, I mean, you know, better than anybody, the world is at a ripping, I mean, we're ripping at a radical pace, where the amount of information that's coming in,

the access that people have of each other, the information that's being flooded, that we're working at such a fast pace that it's easy to become under-recovered and is no longer cool anymore to say, I am under-recovered as a human being. You know, in the eighties, people used to say all the time, like I'm, I'm on five hours sleep, you know, I'm a grinder. Great. That's like putting your hand way up in the air and saying, I'm suboptimal as a human being. When is that okay? No, no, it doesn't work anymore. It's not okay to say you're afraid, but it's okay to say that you're like working really hard, you know? Yeah. It's not, it's going to be a choke point for any one of us that want to do amazing things. That being said, there are times when four hours of sleep

is going to happen and it might happen for two weeks. It might happen for whatever, but there is a diminishing return of output when we're fatigued. And so understanding at least the four pillars of recovery are really important and, and sleep being one of the big ones. What are the other three?

Thinking well and thinking optimally. It's because like when we're thinking in ways that are destructive in nature, we create literally a bag of chemicals in our body that are toxic. So eating well and hydrating well are all in one pillar. And then being able to move well. So oxygenating the body in a particular way. So those are the four pillars, right? Sleep, eat and hydrate, to move well. So oxygenating the body in a particular way. So those are the four pillars, right? Sleep, eat and hydrate, move and think

and doing those optimally. And that's embedded in the nuances of each one of those are how we deal with one of the elements of the heavy blanket that covers our fire. So I'm going to go eat now. It's time. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming in and really dropping such incredible insight and wisdom. So I appreciate it. Thanks for having me another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding

Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.