Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Passion, Therapy, Proving Yourself & More | AMA 5 Vol. with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Dr. Mike sits down with actor Michael Rosenbaum to answer YOUR questions on psychological safety, therapy, motivation, passion, and so much more.I’m really excited about this one. Michael Rosenbaum - a friend of Finding Mastery - has dropped in for today’s AMA. Michael is an actor, comedian, podcaster, and all-around incredible human. He’s famously known for portraying Lex Luthor on the Superman TV series, Smallville, and has recently entered the Marvel Universe - in Guardians of the Galaxy.He hosts his own podcast, Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - In this AMA, we dive into psychological safety, therapy, living with passion, and what to do when your motivation is running thin.Your questions took us to some fascinating places - and we have some fun at the end when Michael trots out his Adam Sandler impression, reveals why he left Smallville, and walks us through the plot of his dream turned movie pitch, Saving Chris Farley. As always, feel free to email [e-mail] with feedback or any questions you may have for future AMAs._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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that you're not sure if it's going to work out or not? That's a big leap. That's a big risk to take. Again, I'll just be uber clear that what got you here is probably not going to get you there. Welcome back to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I keep saying it, but it's an honor to answer the questions you all are sending in. I'm really excited about this one. Michael Rosenbaum, a friend of Finding Mastery has dropped in for today's AMA. Michael's an actor,

comedian, podcaster, and all around incredible human. He's famously known for portraying Lex Luther on the Superman TV series Smallville and has recently entered the Marvel universe in Guardians of the Galaxy. He hosts his own podcast, Inside of You, with Michael Rosenbaum. And in this EMA, we dive into psychological safety, therapy, living with passion, and what to do when your motivation is running thin. Your questions took us to some fascinating places, and there's some real fun at the end. When Michael trots out his Adam Sandler impression. He reveals why he left Smallville and walks us through the plot of his dream-turned-movie

pitch, Saving Chris Farley. As always, feel free to email info at findingmastery.net with feedback or any questions you may have for future AMAs. And if you're enjoying this podcast and haven't already, just a quick reminder to hit the subscribe or follow button and to drop us a review wherever you're listening. It is the easiest and zero cost way to support the show. And with that, let's jump right into the mastery lab with my friend, Michael Rosenbaum for another round of Ask Me Anything. Can you swear on this thing? Yeah. Are you recording? I am.

Good. You should. Yeah. It's good to see you, dude. It's good to see you. What does AMA stand for? Ask Me Anything. Hmm.

Did you guys know that? Yeah. Oh, God. What are we doing? All right. So, yeah, we could do this. Now, let me ask you. So, these questions, tell me who they come from. From all over. So, we... All over. Yeah, we could do this. Now, let me ask you. So these questions, tell me who they come from. From all over.

So we all over. Yeah, we post on social. We've got a nice little international crew that's part of our community. And so they posted or they ask some questions that they want us to wrestle with. Right. Let's go. This is from Amanda. Mike, I'm a huge fan.

Thank you for what you bring to the world. My question is, how do we succeed, accomplish, become more effective and efficient, and at the same time, have peace in our soul? How does one balance a life of striving and getting better with being okay with who you are? That's a big question. That's a lot of questions within a question. That's a lot of questions. Yeah, Amanda's on it.

It's deep. I think what I hear her talking about is the tension between being and becoming, right? So being here, being yourself, being in the present moment, and at the same time, striving to become the person you want to be more often. So that tension between being, becoming is real. There's not an easy way through this, but I do think that the reason that I train my mind, the reason that athletes and people that I work with train their mind is so that they can be in

the present moment more often. It's the more often part. So you train up a skill, psychological skills, so that you can be you in the present moment more often. So you got to work your ass off. Most of us do to kind of return to that brilliant innocence of taking your hands off the steering wheel and kind of being in the present moment as it unfolds. So no easy answer, but just like I set across, set aside time to kind of train my body or to train something in my technical craft that I want to get better at. I also set aside time to train my mind. And so it's discreet. So it's not this bleeding thing that's running throughout the day. It's the discreet time that I'm training my mind. It sounds to me like that is

like it's habit. Like people, if you want instant gratification, if you want to be feel this way, doing it one time, you're probably, oh, that's not working. Two or three times, eh, it's not working. But it's like you have to make it a habit like anything else. And it takes X amount of days or weeks to create this habit, to make things start to feel like they're part of your everyday routine. That's it. So that's the habit of doing the training. Call that the becoming.

So you're training to become your very best in the present moment more often. So being here now is brilliant, but if you're not training for that, the present moment can whip you in a million different directions. Your mind can whip you in another million different directions. And so we train our mind so that we can be in the present moment more often. So you need both, but the reason that we're training is to be here now. And to your point is you start small to build a habit. So chunk something small that you can do to train, to be here, or I'm sorry, to train your mind, like confidence or being calm or mental imagery or whatever, and just chunk it and start small. And then eventually over time you'll, you build a more meaningful habit.

I love it. Yeah. Okay. This is from Emma. I have a separated family and my kids and I have to communicate over the phone in the weeks when I'm not with them. I want to make our connections more enjoyable, but I'm struggling. Can you help me out with some of the best ways to get your kids talking?

Yeah. So the question really, like you nailed it, is like, are you taking care of your needs or their needs? And so oftentimes when we ask a question, there's the benevolence of wanting to take care of another person is there, right? But sometimes we are called what's in an enmeshed relationship where it's hard to see the difference between what is right for them and what is right for us. And so if you can find that healthy separation between the person you're trying to help, it becomes really clear.

But if you're a meshed, like you're, you're like a two screens that are folding on top of each other, it's really difficult to know what is your selfish motive and then what is right for the other person. So part of this work really is to pull apart just a bit to have a healthy space between the other people. And then it becomes incredibly evident. And I'll give you an example. If you were to talk about some sort of stress that's happening between you and your mom or you and somebody in your life, I can see it clearly because I'm not enmeshed in it. I'm not sucked into the narrative of it.

I don't have all the history of it. And I'm just responding off of what I'm hearing you talk about. The reason it's complicated for you is because you're sucked right into the emotional drama between you and your mom. So that's the net of it is like, if you can find healthy space between you and that person it becomes evident i like it you know what you're talking about i feel how about it vivian spell your name a little different than most vivians i know dr mike you are a doctor aren't you i am yeah it's impressive i often find it difficult to have honest conversations with my colleagues

or superiors at work i'm afraid of coming across as confrontational or causing conflict, so I tend to hold back my opinions and feelings. However, I know that this can lead to misunderstandings and resentment in the long run. What are some of the underlying factors that make it so difficult to have honest conversations in the workplace, and how can I overcome these barriers to communicate more effectively? Okay, so what we're, Vivian, what you're talking about is psychological safety. And it was a big rage about psychological safety in the workplace a handful of years ago. And so the idea is like, let's create a space at the work, uh, in a work environment where people

feel safe enough to be able to say what's true or what's honest. But the purpose of that is not to create therapy at work. The purpose of that is to create enough psychological safety where you can wave a flag, speak some truth so that the team can be better, so that you can move the service or the product down the field. So this is not therapy at work. That's not what this is about. So yes, you do need to be able to use your voice in whatever way you are most comfortable in doing that you could communicate to others what's happening inside of you or what you're noticing or watching. So the first order of

business is like, am I not saying what's truth or what I'm spotting? Let's call it that because I don't have the skills to take that risk? Or is it because I like to play it close to vest because it's safer for a different reason, right? And so sometimes our workplaces are, they're not safe, right? They're like pretty hostile. Other times it's like, we're looking for power and control. So the silence can help, you know, with that. And other times, like we're looking for power and control so the silence can help you know with that and other times like we're looking to be understood in a different way but that's for your that's for like family or friends you know and also it's a more sensitive environment these days

you know especially at the workplace so you got to be careful about what you say about what you you know feel and sometimes your feelings can get you in trouble and you got to you just got to be a little cautious am i right yeah i think like it's a lightning bolt conversation isn't it like about how to do this well so yeah so i mean i think that there's that part of the narrative and then there's the other part of like what i'm talking about where people say well why can't i be my whole self i'm not saying don't be your whole self i'm saying to understand the community that you're in. There's an invisible handshake that we're in business together to move a product or service forward and to be great doing it. And the psychological safety is so that you can be a good contributing member to have other people's backs, to spot the truth where maybe other people are missing it, and know, what your experience is in it is meaningful, but I'm not a fan of this unabashed whole self into work. And I know that there's a little bit of lightning rod when I say that for folks. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of,

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and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Brandon, now I might have to answer this question when i was young i never needed anyone name that song oh my god and making love was just for fun you gotta you're gonna have to get to the punchline because i do not know that all by

my oh yeah now i know story uh the song i hear in my head through my life uh when i was young around nine or ten there were a number of times i heard my dad describe me as an idiot to my mom because i struggled in school i mean first of all brandon uh it's like i wrote this not kidding around all jokes aside later i was diagnosed with dyslexia after that i put some practice in place and my school work improved i went to university i started and sold two companies i think his words have been a great driver and motivator but my wife says it's an unhealthy path to success can you weigh in who's right oh that was a little zinger at the end. Who's right? Well, you're the expert, but someone who has a lot of knowledge with that, I think I, you know, I remember growing up and hearing the same thing that I was stupid. Why can't I figure this out? Why can't I do this problem? Why am I, you know, I just always felt stupid. I always felt like I was not a smart kid. And that weighed on me. In fact, subconsciously, no matter how much you work on yourself, at least for me, it remains. It's still there.

And sometimes it comes out. If I don't know something or if I feel like I have no common sense about something or if I fail at something, I feel that stupid feeling, that dumb feeling. And then I say to myself, well, you graduated from college. You can't be that stupid. I mean, it wasn't an Ivy League school, but you did. You memorized lines, tons of lines. You've done tons of things in your life. You write music. And I started answering questions like, could a dumb person do a lot of these things? Well, I guess you could. And then it comes down to I would try to be as successful as I could to prove that theory wrong. I was going to be the biggest actor. I was going to make it. I was going to lead this small town. And I did it all. But there comes a time in your life where you have to say,

I don't need to prove myself anymore. I need to do what I love doing, what I'm passionate, passionate about doing. And for all those reasons, and let go of that, that old thought in your mind since you were a kid that you were dumb, because that doesn't make any sense anymore. It doesn't, it's logically insane to think that for all the things you've done, we all say stupid things. We all do dumb things. It doesn't mean we're dumb, but anyway. No, I mean, you're nailing it. That, what I just heard you talk about was like, you had a belief system that was installed or there's some sort of trauma where you literally made that experience part of

your foundation. Right. And then it drove you in many respects to outwork, outperform, to have something external to you so that you could have real evidence that that's not right. Right. Because you didn't like how it felt that moment where somebody said, or you had it. And, and to be clear, I had a similar lightning bolt moment as well in my early experience where I walked away thinking, well, maybe I am stupid. And so it's not lost on me that many people that you and I know, and I'm looking at you and I'm looking at myself as well. Why do we work so hard? Why do we uncommonly relentlessly, like why do we, why have we worked this hard in our lives if there wasn't some sort of thing we're

trying to sort out? Right. Yeah. And so I think for most people that are trying to be their very best recognize that there's some unhealthy neuroticism underneath of it. And so I see you in it. I see myself in this question and I think it's pretty common. So what do we deal with it or how do we deal with it? It'll get you good, but you won't get free from it. You might not be great. You know, you might not find greatness, but it'll get you really good. It'll get you on a world stage even potentially, but you won't ever find freedom in the thing that you do. So you're talking about finding something that you love and having the passion and, and you know, that love of it. So therein lies the freedom.

And so can you drop that first vine that you've been swinging on well to reach and stretch for a new Vine that you're not sure if it's going to work out or not that's a big leap that's a big risk to take again I'll just be uber clear that what got you here is probably not going to get you there and so interesting yeah I think that's the answer to the end kind of zinger that question which is both can be right right but not until we really face those traumas, do we find some freedom? Therapy never hurts. How long you been in therapy? Often on, I guess for like probably maybe 10 years. How many weeks a year? It varies. I mean i i usually talk to my psychiatrist probably once every month and a half two months um regular therapy i try to do every other week if i can and what's

amazing about therapy and it's like um i talk about it on my podcast all the time a lot of times you think i've got nothing to talk about gosh why am i doing this why am i wasting my money why am i and then 10 minutes into the conversation, it's just like, you're so glad you're there. I have things to say. I have things on my mind and it just clears it out, clears it out a little. And it's just so helpful. And you know, I recognize that experience when I go and sit in my chair, sit in a chair as well. And if you think about this in a kind of a crazy way, if I were to say to you, if you were to say, listen, I want to be in great shape, I want to like, I want to be in great shape. And I said, okay, good. Go to the gym 50 times a year.

You'd say, no, I said, I want to be in great shape. You would never agree that 50 hours of work is going to get you in great shape. But people say there's this misguided thing like, I want to be vibrant. I want to have incredible zest. I want to live in this beautiful way that I know that I'm living my best life. I say, well, you can go train for that too. Go 25 times a year, 25 hours a year, 50 hours a year. It's not enough right so i don't know i also think you can over psychologically you know path pathologize yourself which i'm not an advocate

for as well so intense work in spurts of time i think it's great and then also like some consistency um you know we'll kind of get you into the deep ends as well so or hgh oh yeah i think so testosterone that can make you know maybe 50 sessions could do it oh you mean a fitness physical fitness physical fitness not mental fitness by the way what do you how do you feel about HGH? So it was 1990. I did some research on it. And I was like, oh, my goodness. This is it. This is amazing.

And I was all about it. The elixir of youth, the tissue that it rebuilds and repairs. And I was like, this is amazing. Except for one finding, that it rebuilds and repairs. And I was like, this is amazing. Except for one finding that it grows all tissue. And so that means malignant tissue as well. That means if you've got some stuff going on that you don't want to grow, it can, it can accelerate that as well.

How do you know if you have, that's the question. That's the, that's the thing. Every big movie star just seems like a lot. I mean, you're looking at their bodies. I'm like yeah you're not in anything you can tell oh oh yeah totally oh yeah spinach and chicken every day huh yeah oh yeah yeah fuck off yeah i mean who are you kidding you put on 40 pounds of lean tissue i mean come on and you're even seeing like 50 year olds and

stuff like that we know no matter how hard you work and you're like, Hey, your pecs are pretty good, your arms, but you still got that gut. How'd you get the 20 pack? It's crazy. Oh, spinach and chicken. Yeah. It's crazy. Working out you fucks. Liars. All right. This is from Jason. As a leader, I have been asked to lead through a lot of change and uncertainty over the last couple of years. I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed by it all. What work do I need to put in to get my positive mojo back and lead my team into another successful year, understanding that there are no hacks, of course?

All right. I think we're, I'll nod my head to just about anyone that's in business right now. There's the uncertainty and the ambiguity and the high stress that people are dealing with is on and it's real. And that question I get asked on a regular daily basis. So the first thing I think is strip it down to investing in the way you think about your future. So what does that mean? There's a lens that all of us think about our future through. It's either optimism or pessimism.

And it's one of those two. And we're not born with a, as far as we know, with a predetermined view of the future, meaning you're not born pessimistic or optimistic. So I would say the first thing to do in this high ambiguity, high stress environment is to train optimism. So one way, one simple way to train optimism is to find what's amazing in your life right now. So if you can, it's, this is out of UPenn, some interesting research called three good things. And so if you wake up in the morning and you, um, you've, you make a commitment to find what's good in your life, you start to train. And then at the end of the day, you write down those three things. You start to train your brain to scan the world and

find what's good as opposed to what its default is to scan the world and find all the dangers and the threats and the things that could get you harmed or even killed. So you want to down regulate that part of it because it's on hyperdrive. That part of our brain is on hyperdrive right now because the high stress and ambiguity and uncertainty. So you want to almost over rotate and train the other part of our brain, which is the optimism center. There's no such center. You want to train that capability. So that would be one place, one simple way to start. Hypnosis. Yeah. Hypnosis has been on the fringe for a long time and it's starting to have some research around it that is really compelling. And so

I don't do hypnotherapy myself, but there is some interesting, it's, you know, there's two types of hypnosis that people are, you know, comedy hypnosis, like cluck like a chicken and you know, that thing. Yeah. I tried hypnotherapy. Like technical hypnotherapy, not comedy. Not comedy. Yeah. And, um, you know, I saw that there was something working, but really what hypnotherapy is to me

is creating habits, like listening to 20 minutes of someone's voice telling you all these good things about yourself and hearing them. And then you recording something in for like a few minutes and then listening to that every night, every morning, every night, every morning, and so on. And after like three weeks, you're sort of like starting to believe these things subconsciously. So it's sort of like embedding all these good things and good qualities and perceptions and optimistic traits and things because we're so filled with failure and this and negative. So it's just pushing positive thoughts in you subconsciously almost. I see where you're going. Yeah.

All right. This is from Taffy. Shake your laffy Taffy. Wait, let me go before. It's perfect. Let me finish up on. Oh yeah, yeah, you have to finish. Yeah, on what I was saying about hypnotherapy. Sorry about that.

No, it's good. So hypnotherapy, there's a lot to it. And what you're describing is part of hypnotherapy is that there's this deep relaxation. So you get yourself into what's called the theta brainwave. And in that deeply relaxed state, we're more suggestible. And so if there's some sort of language coming in about the future state that you want to be a certain way, then it's like you're really receptive to it right there. But that's a little different than what I was suggesting. What I was suggesting is to be an active agent throughout

your day to go find what's good. And that opens up that part of the brain that is saying, oh, we're not under threat. We actually have the luxury of finding what's good. And so related, but not totally. I gotcha. That's interesting. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated

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Taffy, how would you encourage a young professional in sports psychology to best reach potential clients? Thank you. Well, to reach potential clients, I think I'll tell you how I got going is that I wanted to work with people that were deeply motivated. I don't understand low motivation. So first of all, like having an idea of the type of person that you want to work with is cool. Not what they do or how good they are, but you know, the characteristics that you understand well, and then as a place to build from. So that's, that's kind of the first part.

The second part, because now there's a fit, like there's an interest from you, highly motivated people that want to get better at the thing that they've been working at. It's who I want to spend time with. Okay. The second is that I gave away a lot. And so when I was young, right out of grad school, um, as green as you can be, um, I, I fired up a, uh, I met a coach. It was a volleyball coach. And he says, this stuff is great. He says, um, you want to come talk to the team? I'm like, yeah, that'd be great. I'd love to do that. And so I showed up and I did what I thought was great.

And the kids were like, you know, they're 17 year olds and they're kind of nodding. They're cool. That's good. Coach was like, man, that was awesome. And I thought I was going to build my practice. I thought all these kids, maybe half of them would show up and private practice. And I'd be, you know, actually building my business that way. Nobody, nobody, nobody. Because the real client's not there. The client is the parent. And so, um, after two or three times where it wasn't working, I said to the coach, I said,

Hey, listen, I'm happy to come back as long as you invite the parents. So that was like, I gave away so much to both parents, parents alone, parents and athletes alone and athletes alone to build, to be a good community member. But it wasn't until the parents came that they're like, Hey Susie, you know, what'd you think of that on the ride home? You know, do you think that you'd want to do a little more of that? And Susie would say, yeah, that sounds good. So that was one way to not only be a good community member, but also to specifically build a business.

So I know it sounds small, but I'm assuming that the question is about how do I build my private practice? How do I build my practice? So let's call that one answer. The second answer is think about scale. Right now, if you love the art and science, which I do of individual practice, also think about how can you scale this beautiful science across many and to do it in a way that doesn't lose its fidelity or doesn't lose its essence. And there's a real challenge with that because you get a couple of really smart engineers that want to optimize psychology. Might not be beautiful, might be a good business, but

might not be beautiful. So I would think about scale. I would think about making sure you're a good community member. And I think about being strategic with who you invite to those free sessions. This is from Clinton. Hi, mate. Just wondering if you can be vulnerable about what you're struggling with. I feel leaders often offer advice, but don't share their own struggles.

Much love and respect from Australia. Oh, my God. I was wondering where that was going. Can we do that? Yeah. Clint, it's probably a terrible Australian accent, but I can say my countries, but the cities in Australia. Here's how you do it.

Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Sydney, Perth, Gold Coast. How's that? Was that better? All right, go ahead. Answer the question, Mark. Perfect. I would think that, one, I appreciate it. I don't get asked that question very often, if ever. And it's selfishness. That's the thing that I can hide behind ambition and I can hide behind deep interest to grow something. And I can hide behind building a business that is noble in cause, you know, democratizing in this beautiful science of psychology, but there's a selfishness that comes with it. And the selfishness comes from spending, you know, the time with my family, as opposed to spending time with business. And so I think that that's the part that I struggle

with is knowing where, where I'm doing a service and a disservice and um i can over rotate quickly to pour all in into the thing that i'm building from a business standpoint and diminish the thing i want to build from a family standpoint and that scares me i don't love it um so that's the kind of inner civil war within myself is like figuring out how to have a rising tide between both of those and um i think a deep regret for me will be to get to the end of my life and have this beautiful community and business and then have you know somebody like my wife or my son have like a shitty eulogy you know because he didn't have time for me basically you know like chatting up rosenbaum and What are we doing?

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, look, you're always, it's never, look, I just feel like we're all insatiable and we're all, you know, we're hopefully all malleable in terms of like we want to grow, we want to change, we want to, you know, make everyone happy, appease people. And, you know, as great as you can be to your family, your wife and your kid, whatever you there will always be that a memory that you can't control. I can't control. My dad can control that. I'll remember it a certain way. Like he chose work when that really wasn't the reality that you were in.

So you're we're not perfect. Oh, 100 hundred percent. And you know, we all make mistakes and you know, back to like being vulnerable, but vulnerability, I think it used to be more of a weakness. Now I think it's like, I think people want to see people like you never see the presidents, you know, maybe Biden's a little vulnerable at times, but it's such a, it's such a cool thing to see from leaders that when you could see someone really upset and moved by something that happened you know i'll be at like a you know a school a shooting or something and seeing a leader not just go we've got to make a law here we've got to make rules but like sending prayers send prayers and bullshit but like really affects

him like viscerally like real empathy sympathy uh that is power also in a leader and if it's done you know at the right moment you don't want somebody who's constantly going oh my god how could korea send those missiles out yeah what are they doing you know you don't want people you know because then you're like I don't want to go this is my leader so there's got to be a balance but anyway um Jenny I've got your number it was a song I have been working at the same job for 25 years in five years I will reach an age from mandatory retirement I leave now, but it would not be a good financial decision for my family. I'm grateful for my job, but I'm finding it difficult to be excited about it anymore. I also do not feel a sense of meaning and purpose in it right now.

I'm very goal-oriented, and purpose means a lot to me. I find myself more excited about other interests rather than my work. I do not want to feel like this for the next five years of my career. Do you have any suggestions for, for staying inspired after working in the same field for many years? Do you have any suggestions for finding new meaning and purpose in one's work? The long question, Jenny,

but an important one. That's a good one. Yeah, that's really good. So, all right, Jenny, I would say,

yeah, like the workplace, let's, let's get, let's get the ordering right. Is that, and let me talk about passion first before we talk about purpose, is that the old idea of passion is that if I could just do the thing that I loved and then I would have more passion in my life. Where that model has been, you know, wrong for a lot of years. The idea is, let me figure out how I can have passion everywhere I go, with everything that I do across the 16 hours that I'm getting after it as I'm awake. So just talk about passion for a minute, not purpose. So I do think that if

there was a bit more passion across all parts of life, this question probably doesn't come up because there's a buoyancy in all parts of life. The second part is 25 years, you've probably gotten really good at some stuff. You probably know where to hide. You probably have, you know, all the places that are safe in your life. And that tends to get quite boring. And so the second is like figuring out the new challenge. So it might not be purpose yet. I haven't even gotten to purpose, but what's the challenge to get you on the edge? What's the challenge that you can find every day that is stimulating in a way that it feels like if you made a mistake, it could be, you know, it could be costly, but there's an

aliveness that comes right at the edge. So I do think that that's part of it. And then let's just talk about purpose is that nobody can give somebody purpose. You have to do the internal alone work to say purpose has three components. What matters to me? In other words, what moves me? And how can I organize my life in service of that, that purpose, the thing that matters most to me. And for most people work is, um, not necessarily their primary purpose. It might be, but it is a purpose for their, I'm sorry. It serves a purpose for their deeper purpose. Like, ah, gotcha. Yeah. Like, um, listen, I'm taking my paycheck. I like where I work. I'm taking my paycheck because I want to put my three kids through school. I'm a single parent. I'm grinding. And that's, that's the thing I want to give them. And so I'm going to do my

very best, but my bigger purpose is kids through school or, or then you can, you can play with that thread. Yeah. So I'm not answering it directly, but I would say, look at fatigue, look at risk-taking and fatigue as part of like getting more passion, look at risk-taking, get on the edge more often, and then think about maybe your purpose is not work, but it's something greater than that, that work can serve. And maybe the obvious is time to switch jobs, time to get a new kind of thing. So I wish I had a clear answer, but there's a lot of variables probably at play. In layman's terms, as an actor, this is what I think of. Sometimes you do things, do jobs because they pay really well,

but the content is kind of, for lack of a better word shit and you do it because you know you're going to make some money so then you can go do this little independent movie for no money because that's that just feels good that's what you want to do so same thing same type of thing natasha i achieved my dreams now what i built and sold a startup i was crazy passionate about now i don't have a fire for anything i'm 42 and it's the first time in my life there's nothing to chase. Everyone always talks about chasing dreams. Never what happens after you've accomplished them. How do you decide what's next for you after you fulfilled your dream? Natasha, I kind of feel that way in a lot of ways. Look, I mean, when I was young, I always thought I want to be this big movie star.

I want to be the most, I want to be famous and I want to be the best actor. And as I got older, I started to realize, Hey, you're still living the dream. You're, you're acting, you're making money. People, you know, yeah, it's like, it's a good life. I'm sort of like, I became sort of content, right? I sort of was like, hey, this is, I have a lot to be proud of. I'm grateful. This is fine. And, but what's next? And then inadvertently I stumbled upon doing these podcasts and making music. And so my thought is you find, you will find something else. There's so many things out there that we don't even know about. Keep exploring, keep learning, and something might just come up that you go, wow.

Yeah, I 100% agree with that. There's a lot of opportunities and a lot of different ways that we could choose. And then I would also suggest maybe examining a course correction because maybe the thing that led to the success, the external rewards were more interesting than the internal experience. So if you had managed and really invested in mastering the internal experience, then what's next is it's not an issue because you know how to be fully animated and alive in anything that you're doing, whether it's podcasting or music building or whatever it is, right. Or acting or comedian or doing comedy. So I think that, um, if, if she's not careful, I would, I would imagine

that whatever the thing is that seems stimulating next might be for external because that's the dilemma that's found now. The external, you're big, you got all the stuff, whatever that is. It's interesting. Attention, money, whatever it is. And because of that, it would be likely to repeat that process again. And so I would pause in this time if this was me and I'd say, right, man, what am I looking for for next that is sustainable, that is working from the inside out. And I would just, that,

again, that's where like doing some internal work would pay dividends, I think. I, you know, I feel, I feel like for me, a lot of the work, not all of it has just made sense when you say, I don't know if it's what you meant, but I interpret things differently sometimes. But a lot of times it's the reward that I'm most like, I just, I want to say I did that. I finished that, uh, success, but the journey, I don't like a lot of times in my life, in my career, but I do think that like doing my podcast and talking to people, it forces me to be present and it forces me to sort of enjoy the, the moment and be in the moment because I have to listen. I have to,

but then you want to listen if it's interesting and you want, so it's like, you know, I wish that was always the case with work where you just like, I can't wait to go to work. People are like, I can't wait to be on set and work 18 hours a day and shoot the same fucking scene over and over. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I'm not wired like that. Yeah. I think, you know, it's a, I think it's a great moment to just reflect and say, am I working from the outside in, or am I working from the inside out? The inside out is durable. It'll stand up over time. The

outside in is fleeting and temporary. And so, you know, nothing wrong with good rewards, nothing wrong with external goals, as long as they're counterbalanced to internal goals as well. So. Amen. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery.

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my question is what is a state of mastery? Oh, look at that. Yeah, that's good. I like that one. Yeah. I would say that you probably understand it as well, like at the level of your ability to be and to express what you've done, but I'll answer it. And then, and then we'll hopefully go back and forth here is that mastery. There's many ways into this conversation about mastery. One of the ways in is, and I'll be tongue and forth here is that mastery. There's many ways into this conversation about mastery. One of the ways in is, and I'll be tongue in cheek here is that what I've learned from people that are great at what they do that are in stick and ball sport.

They say this phrase often, Oh, game recognizes game, meaning that somebody that is great at something they can recognize when somebody else is great as well in a different craft even though they don't understand that craft i see that i've seen that yeah like so you can see and i think people that understand the the language of mastery can see when it's being expressed by someone else even when it's got a different shape or form so that's

one way to think about it another way to think about mastery is that there's a radical command that you have of yourself. There's a radical command you have with your craft. And with that radical command, there's this deep trust that comes along with it so that you are looking for spontaneity more than you're looking for proficiency. You are looking for the explosiveness that naturally could happen in a moment and knowing that you're able to capture those elements that are swirling in a present moment

and create something special from them. You're nodding your head. Like that part of having that level of command that leads to this deep trust allows us to not look for relief from anxiety of not knowing, but looking for the opportunity to co-create in a very messy soup of all things that could potentially take place. And that you're able to not lose yourself in a negative way, but lose yourself in the present moment to create something that you could never quite imagine on your own. So there's mastery of self and mastery of craft.

And there's other ways to think about it, but I want to pause. It's interesting. I think there's – what comes to my mind is when you could – when I think of mastery, I think of when you can not let fear get in the way, when you know how to deal with fear, when you know how to deal with failure, when you've experienced it, when you like know what that feeling is, embarrassment, shame, all these things. And you can sort of navigate. It's like you have, like you can't fly a plane unless you learn how to use all those controllers. You know, you can't just put it on autopilot all the time.

You have to learn how to fly a plane. So I feel like it's learning all those things, those hardships, those dealing with failure, dealing with all those things to make you the best at what you do. And then to actually living in those moments that are rare, that are, and relishing the moment, you, it's, it's again, what is it? It's like luck is a commodity of preparation meets opportunity, right? If you are prepared for those moments, you know, and the opportunity arises, you're going to be there. You're going to be present. You're not going to be wondering, doubting yourself, all these things. You're going to be, and that's to be present you're not going to be wondering doubting yourself all these things you're going to be yeah and that's that's how i feel increasing the frequency of that state it's a freedom yeah it's a freedom it's like sometimes i feel like i'm just so like there i here i am here i am and i'm not thinking sometimes i think about it while

i'm doing it like oh my god why am I so feeling so free now I'm feeling so good I'm questioning it like why isn't this all the time why can't I always feel like that now you're pulled out of it and now I'm pulled out of it because I'm thinking about a moment that I was in that I got lost in for a second and doubting going hey hey why is this happening am I on drugs what's going on here you know it's it's a scary feeling but an exciting feeling and I just want to stay in You know, it's, it's a scary feeling, but an exciting feeling. And I just want to stay in it longer and not doubt it. There's a cousin to what we're talking about, which is flow state. And so we're not talking about flow state. So what you just

described was like a thin slice where you're completely attuned and present and it's magical. Yeah. And as soon as you recognize that it's magical, you're not, you're now narrating or observing it as opposed to being in it. So mastery is a little bit different for me. It's like being able, so there's mastery of self and mastery of craft. Michael Jordan, to be clear, is a master of craft. I don't think he's got mastery of self. No, he's a horrible gambler.

Yeah. So, and I think he's struggling quite a bit. Oh yeah. Yeah. So, and I think he's struggling quite a bit. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So, I'm most interested in like the dovetail between those two. So, people that haven't lost themselves in mastery of craft and they can make a beautiful thing on command. But their life is a disaster.

How about Tiger Woods? Prime example. Prime example. Prime example. I mean, this guy, there's nobody better mastering his craft than Tiger Woods. And yet the dysfunction and all the other, maybe it's pressure. Maybe it's all these other things that the release, the, and rare, it's very rare for somebody to have the master of both.

That seems like it's. Those are the ones that are like, I'm in awe of those people. It's complicated, isn't it? It's complicated. Yeah. So I would not, I think, you know, I think sometimes I, uh, you know, people listen to the podcast and they're like, you help us, you help people so much. And I almost sometimes feel shame.

Like I feel like I'm a fraud because I don't always follow what I say. I don't always do the things I recommend. I had a very close friend, Carrie Fisher, who is a wonderful woman, one of the most brilliant people you'd ever meet. And she passed away. But Carrie could give advice, the best advice like nobody else. But unfortunately, she didn't take her own advice. And I feel like I do that a lot of times too. And I get really mad at myself. And if I took a lot of my advice, the advice from

peers or whatever, I would be a lot better off. Yeah. This is the advice giving thing. Knowing the answer, then practicing are different. And so, yeah think that it's it's cool that you say that out loud because practicing when when you can walk the talk and talk the walk and walk the talk like you you've got that thing dialed in where you're actually living in alignment with what you say that i don't know another way for me that the shell game doesn't make doesn't work for me i think that's where we're kind of picking up on. So if I'm not talking the talk and walking the talk, then I feel like somebody could easily poke

and it's like a chocolate Easter egg, Easter bunny, whatever. There's a hollow inside and there's nothing in there. Like that feels like I would be a disaster. I don't feel like that strongly, but I will say that I will sometimes say things and give advice and really believe it, but not always follow everything I say. Like sometimes like, oh, my God, why are you doing that? That's something you would not. Why? And, you know, I get really upset about it. But yeah, anyway, it's. That's a tough one, but like I guess what it would be is what if you do really give good advice? What if you, from experience, you have a lot to say.

You have a lot of things to say that will help people. But like, let's say you're an overweight, obese fitness trainer. You know how to get this guy ripped and strong and do the right mechanics and not hurt himself. And you're the best, but you're obese. So you're not doing what he's doing. It's like, no, I don't want to do what he's doing, but I know how to do that. As long as how you get there. If it's clear and you're willing to take that risk, you know, then I think so. But my tax accountant or let's do financial advisor. Yeah. He better be making a lot more money than me.

I'm going to him for like some counsel on how to do something, you know, with money that I understand my fitness trainer. I want my fitness trainer to, to, to like really understand it and live it. So I'm less interested in like, you know, the coach that is sipping, you know, coffee and baggy sweatshirt and knew it 20 years ago, but doesn't live it now. I'm not interested. I'm a little concerned now. Are you? Yeah are you yeah because my uh i don't think my business manager makes as much as i think about letting him go yeah you were telling me that your uh your friend said something to you i'm on the table my cairo and he says he loves finding master and he says um he's always asking like who's up who's coming next or whatever and i said oh michael r Rosenbaum's coming up. He says, your rabbi?

No, no, no. He says, your rabbi's coming in? No, no. He like stops. I'm like, okay, why are you stopping working on me? He goes, Lex, as in Lex Luthor's coming in? I said, yeah. He goes, you got to ask him.

That's my favorite character. He was great. Ask him why he gave up that role. Why did he do that and so that's such a misconception and it's not only a misconception amongst uh you know fans people in the entertainment industry but it's also like directors and people that love smallville and you know even kevin smith who i finally had a conversation with a few years ago, he was like, you know, why would he walk away from that? And, you know, people were like, who does he think he

is? And there was sort of that level of, it was, it was ignorance is what it was because the truth is I signed a six year deal. So I had six years on my contract for that role, for that role. And I signed, I added a year. so i negotiated and did one more year and then i so i gave them an extra year got it and so i in the entire season it was an ongoing joke i'd say guys just remember this is it for me and nobody believed me they thought i was going to come back and you know the president of the network studio at the time peter roth um you know took me to dinner and you know michael what do you you got to do this you're going to do this you're going to do three more years with us and i go yeah you know what my grandmother thinks i'm really funny i want to try to do some comedy and i just want i played the

role peter for a long time and shaved my head for 10 months a year and i just feel like you know this story's been told now we finished this arc you say no no no look what happened to julietta margolies when she left er you know you don't want to end up the i know and then she became this you know uh so i just was like i felt like i'm very grateful it awesome. I'd love to play the part again. If it's the right thing, I've been offered to play the character again, but not for what, not the vehicle or whatever that I want to do.

So you did walk away from it. Like this was, I walked away from the opportunity to do more, but I didn't walk away from my contract or didn't, you know, I always felt like i you know i i'm proud of that role i'm proud i i love it in fact i have a new podcast with my co-star tom welling and it's called talkville so we re-watch every episode and he laughs because i didn't watch most of them so now i'm going wait how did that happen what's that chip key for he's

like dude did you not watch any? You know what I mean? I go, well, I didn't have to. I was sort of my own thing going on with Lex. So we rewatched these shows. We talk about them. We give them a rating. And, you know, it's really fun.

Oh, that's fun. It's a lot of fun, and fans love it. And so I enjoy it. But, you know, I still go to cons and sign autographs and I have fun with it. And I love playing the role. But it's, you know, I don't feel like the right phrases I walked away from. I feel like it's, hey, you fulfilled your contract and you did an extra year. Good for you, dude.

And on top of that, I'll finish it with this. I came back for the final series finale episode. I said, you have me for one day. And they used me for 24 hours straight. They put a bald cap. I go, you got to put a bald cap this time because I shaved my head every year, every episode. And they did.

And my head's already big. So imagine it was a little bigger, which, you know, I was like, damn, I should have shaved my head. But it was great. It was great to kind of finish it. The fans wanted it. And I'm glad I did it. So there you go. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore.

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savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose

from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, you made a dent for a lot of folks. That's really cool so you did comedy after that yeah uh you know it wasn't before no i did comedy before that's right so i i was doing stuff like you know i was on a sitcom that lasted two seasons i was on like another sitcom that lasted a season i did this movie called sorority boys which sort of became a cult following it's it's a funny

freaking movie i have to say but the weekend it came out it went against i remember ice age um et returns 25th anniversary or some stuff there was like four blockbuster blade all those movies were on that weekend and they buried it and so we kind of got we got dumped but the the great thing i remember that i was at a bowling alley and i was i remember talking to this girl and she was really cute that's all i really remember and we were having a good conversation and all of a sudden she goes um there's her eyes lit up she goes there's someone behind you i go was it freddy krueger what are you acting like that for i turn around and it's adam sammer i think that's buddy you were funny in that movie buddy you were at the girls in the sorority thing that was a you were good buddy you're funny i go wow thank you so much he's

like yeah man we talked for a minute and i would see him hold on by the way, but that was really good. I don't really do a Sandler. I just, I know you do a lot, but I know I do impressions, but I don't really do a Santa, but like,

it was like, I love, I love Sandler, but like I would see him, you know, certain times in my life after that. And he would always say, buddy. And then he produced this show called breaking in that I did with Christian

Slater for a year, which is, which was really funny. It was a funny character. I really enjoyed doing it. And he was just – I directed a movie called Back in the Day. I filmed it in my hometown for very little money. It's like a Sandler-esque raunchy comedy.

He calls me on the phone. I recorded it. I recorded Sandler calling my home phone and going, I got to have Sandler for you. I'm like, fuck you, Sandler. Can you swear on us? Yeah, of course. And I go, hey, how are you? I go, what's up?

He goes, Swartzen. He's good friends with Nick Swartz. He goes, he gave me the trailer for your movie. He's like, it looks so funny. Can I watch it? Where can I watch it? Because it wasn't out yet. I go, I got a DVD, a Blu-ray or something.

He goes, can you bring it over? I ran to the studio and I handed it to him. My wife calls me the next day laughing, talking about it for like a half an hour. Just made my world. This guy is, there's nobody like him. He actually puts his close friends in movies. He really, look at all the careers he's got yeah he's just the loyal most loyal guy i wish everybody was like that really but man what uh you know they say never meet your heroes oh so he was one of them he was certainly

my hero him and chris but this one but chris farley died yeah how about it that was that's a story that was a bummer. Cause I got, I got to hang out with Farley. Oh, you did. And he was a hero. I just, to me on this earth thus far, nobody compares to Chris Farley in terms of funny net making me laugh. Nobody.

I was doing a show and Chris Farley all these brothers were recurring characters on it this was a piece of crap show was not good i could say shit it was a tom arnold show it was called the tom show and i love tom and whatever but the show was ranked 133 out of 132 it was not a big hit and but i had fun and i was just getting started and you know i'm on set and it's a studio audience and uh one night and i'm giving my lines and the audience starts to laugh and they start to really laugh and i'm thinking my shit's not even funny i don't even know why it can't be me and i turn around and lo and behold chris farley is walking to the studio he's just like looking at everybody in the stand you know in the studio audience and going, how are you?

All right. Yeah. You know, and as he's walking, he's got this suit on, it's baggy. And, you know, and I just remember I've got to do something. I've got to say something. This is my freaking hero. I've got to remember this. This has to be a moment.

And I just screamed. I go, and I won't do it now because it'll blow your ears up it's like hey everybody i'm the big fat guy taking all the attention away from a guy who's trying to make it hollywood and he goes that's it and he runs over and he picks me up over his head starts smacking me on my ass, takes me up to the studio. Everybody in the audience now, you couldn't do it. They're all smacking my ass. Oh, God. Hung out with him all night.

I got pictures. I'll send them to you. I mean, it was like a dream. That's awesome. It was like, holy shit, I'm hanging out with Chris Farley. What a cool way to capture a moment, though. Yeah. You didn't plan for it?

No. No, it was just one of those moments that you're like, this is, this is a dream when you're thinking of being an actor. Did you know that you could get his voice like that? You know, it's funny as I think I was always doing a Farley in my own way. Yeah.

You know, like my dad, my dad was like, I'd rather him hit me than freaking yell at me. I'm, you know, he just loses shit. So it was kind kind of like i channel a little farley but like farley would just his facial gestures you know the way he his nuance is like you know that matt foley character

you know and he's like young young lady what do you want to do with your life and she's like well i want to live in a van down by the river all right you'll have a hell heck of a lot of time living in a van down by the river when you're living in you know it just like i can talk about him for hours that's awesome i know every one of his sketches every like everything he's done like it yeah in fact i had a dream i wanted to make a movie it's called saving chris farley and it's a movie where i have this premonition or this vision that he's gonna die and so i try to get in touch with sandler and spade and all his friends and break into the studios as a regular guy to say that this guy

is gonna die like you got to do something it's gonna happen on this date and this and it's like ah buddy all right yeah yeah this guy's fucking crazy you know and all this shit i had this dream this was before no no no this is after okay and i was like god wouldn't it be great it's like you know and so i thought about this movie how cool would it be and at the end you know farley comes to the premiere in the movie and he looks at me goes you look familiar and uh i remember the dream i just gotta go yeah i i saved your life i'm the reason why you're alive he goes well i guess that's your theory he kind of laughs and takes off and i just watch him leaving his limo and it's like kind of a good i don't know i just remember that so you you remember your dreams oh yeah that's you know that's something i've been talking to my doc

my doctors about because um i have incredibly vivid dreams every night and a lot of nightmares. I have a lot of freaking nightmares. It's crazy. And the dreams are so vivid that they feel as real as you can get. And they're not always so scary, but sometimes they're just like, why are you, I don't know how much you know about dreams, but why do we dream so vividly? And why is it feel so, why do things feel so tangible in the dreams? There's at least three theories, right? So one of the theories is that it's nonsense, but because our brain works as in images that it's just kind of working out some stuff,

not like non-conscious traumas, but it's just, it's an electrical cleaning of the house and that's why it doesn't quite make sense. And it's like, you couldn't script it. It's so different, although you were just scripting yours perfectly. But so it's like nonsense, highly visual. And then because of that,

there's an emotional component to it. Another theory is that it's your non-conscious working things out and so pay attention you know you really do you believe that no i'll tell you the third i'll tell you the third the third is uh we don't really know what's happening so um it's interesting but no attention given right yeah so the first one's like a true like science like there's just something cleaning out the second one's like a true like science, like there's just something cleaning out. The second one's non-conscious and the third is like, we don't know. So I like to have like the story, like the middle one about the non-conscious. I like to entertain it, but it's really hard to kind of map it to some non-conscious, deeply seated psychological thing that you're working out.

But I can see it's almost like a little bit like tarot card, where if we put something out, then you can make an incredible story around it. Anybody could, whether that is an actual, you know, skill or it's some manipulation, you know, put an asterisk in that part of the conversation. But that to me is a little bit like what trying to make sense of dreams are. But I do i think it's it provides some content you know to some clay to work with could it be like uh if you're on an antidepressant let's say could it be the drug that's doing that i don't know yeah i don't you don't know if it's like any kind of any kind of chemical thing if you're taking something yeah i don't i haven't read that so i don't i don't i don't know because i'm on a low low antidepressant book but I'm on a low, low antidepressant. I'm an open book, but I'm on a low dose antidepressant.

But I noticed since I started taking those months back, the dreams are more, you know, I think vivid dreaming is pretty incredible. Lucid dreaming. Like, it's pretty incredible. I do like to, like, when I have them, I say to myself, oh, I want to remember and tell somebody about this. And then by the time I brush my teeth, it's gone. Like yeah like i can't i can't tell you exactly what happened last night oh that's interesting oh yeah i could just like i i remember like i was at a wedding in like ireland

and they gave us a wedding gift and the wedding gift was this little device and you press a button and it's a special gift for you and i I opened it and it was like $300 in this old ancient kind of money. And I went to this place to exchange it for 300 bucks. And for some reason I was really excited about this 300 bucks. And it was this old shop and this guy was just weird shit. Yeah. That's the, that's kind of version one,

which is like, it's just electrical stimulus happening and creating images. And so put meaning on it yeah you know but it's cool um i think that the idea of paying attention to what's happening inside is cool and your podcast the name of your podcast inside of you with michael roseman which you've been on you're going to come on again once we get this date let's let's let's do it. Yeah. I love it. This has become like, I got to, I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to be very, very honest with you. As I, as I try to be, I think I was doing it for the money in the beginning. Well, you were early.

You and I were both pretty early. We did it. We were like years ago. Yeah. It's been years. Well, I remember like at your studio, I think it was, I was an early guest on your thing. You were top. Yeah.

You were, I think you were in the basement. Like we were in the basement studio, but I remember you, you're like, I said, how's it going for you? And you're like, I got a sweet deal. This is really fun. I'm like learning about me. And like, so you had like a dual path. And I remember thinking like, well, that's because of like your body of work led you to have like this offer. Like, so like you got paid pretty well on it. And then, but lot of oh okay so i thought you know but my celebrity

name wasn't it wasn't big enough and i wasn't like a big once covet happened every celebrity wanted a podcast so about it yeah fuck off yeah i know seriously this competition but what happened was um what had happened was what had happened was but i was interviewing people and i was just doing it for fun and i think that it was i think it was good but it for fun. And I think that it was, I think it was good, but it was still sort of surface. And it wasn't, um, I became more vulnerable as the show continued. I felt like, you know, I, it's almost like therapy. Like if you're going in there and you're talking shit and you're not being vulnerable and real, and then you're not going to learn and I felt like I was open and when I listen to people I somehow get them to talk about real stuff and so a lot of the guests come on like Stephen Amell from Arrow had an anxiety attack in the podcast Zach Leva

was just crying about his father who just died um you know JK Simmons about his brother who, uh, tried to commit suicide. Um, Alan Richen, who's on the Jack Reacher, the new show, he tried to kill himself and he opened up about hanging himself. And like, I don't, I don't just go, so what, you know, it sort of just starts out like two people chatting. And then I sort of just go, yeah, well, I talk about my dysfunction in my life. Well, it's super disarming because I remember we went somewhere on our conversation. Yeah. You got into it. I remember you talked about your brother.

Yeah. No. No. It was the ocean. Thank you for not reminding. No. My trauma does not matter to you. Wasn't it in the ocean?

Like you were in the ocean when you came up? Yeah. Yeah. You got it. What was that? No, that was it. Yeah. So there was, well, I think you might be remembering when I talked about, I found when I was surfing,

I found a dead person. Yes. There's that. But I came up surfing and I learned a lot, you know, through surfing. But my, my early trauma was more with my parents than anything else. But I remember you, you like set the stage about kind of your dysfunction, whatever. And in that creates a sense of safety. And then, so then I'm asking you questions and you're like, okay, yes.

Yeah. Oh, oh God, here we go. And then you asked me one or two questions. I was like, well, I got to match it. You know, like I'm going to be there with you. And it was, yeah. So you have a natural way of doing that. It makes it really appealing. I think, I think it's just, that was like, I think my, you know, my dad once said, he's like, you have a gift. Hi buddy. Just laying right next to me. But I think think my gift was it's like not necessarily acting or this or that but it's just talking to people yeah you know what i mean it's it's i i just that's and and what i mean by that is i'm curious i'm so curious about everybody i'm curious about the guy

who was working at the in and out burger last night at the drive-through and i went after ice i played ice hockey and i always go for an in-N-Out Burger last night at the drive-thru. I played ice hockey, and I always go for an In-N-Out Burger afterwards. I was in line. He was outside. I just started talking to him. His name was Axel, because I immediately started going, she's got a smile

that it seems to me. I go, Axel? Axel Rose? He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, I'll have a protein burger, a protein style. And we talked for a minute and just laughed. But I like to kind of make people happy. I try. Yeah.

So I don't know if that's a gift, but I try to do that. Well, you care. All right. I appreciate you. Thank you. This is great. Thanks for having me. Anytime.

Anytime. This adds a little flavor, right? Yeah, you are awesome. Thank you. Dude, I would love to. Yeah, I'll do it for you. Just give me a call anytime. You got to come back on my, right? Yeah. You are awesome. Thank you. I would love to. Yeah. I'll do it for you. Just give me a call anytime.

You got to come back on my pod. Yes. Let's do it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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