Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Paul Rabil, Premier Lacrosse League Co-Founder

Episode Date: April 3, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Paul Rabil, a professional lacrosse player and co-founder of the Premier Lacrosse League – a new professional lacrosse league launched in October 2018, with 160 of the best players in the world and a major media rights deal with NBC Sports Group.Paul has gone on to influence the sport at every level, winning championships and MVP’s twice in the NCAA’s, multiple times in professional outdoor and indoor lacrosse, as well as becoming a two-time World Lacrosse Champion with Team USA.I wanted to speak with Paul to understand how he's organized his inner world and his external life. What was his childhood like? Did he want to be his best, or the best? Did his motivations change once he was recognized as being the best?And most importantly, after all the success he’s had, why did he want take on the enormous challenge of building a professional sports league from scratch?_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. If someone does well and you're an athlete who doesn't like to celebrate someone else's goal, then you're probably not an empathic individual and you're probably going to skew when someone messes up into yelling at them. But if you can practice empathy and positive moments too, it's really a riching experience. So I also like to call that out. That is in the workplace as well. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais,

and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. We want to understand how the extraordinaries, how they think and how they do, how they organize their inner world as well as their external life to be able to maximize their understandings and to go deeper with those understandings. And we want to understand what they're searching for, what they crave, where they find contentment and peace. And we also want to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of,

from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already

know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something

quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective.

28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery,

for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N dot com

slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Paul Grable, a professional lacrosse player and co-founder of the Premier Lacrosse League. And that's a new professional lacrosse league that was launched in October 2018. It's very disruptive. And what he's done is he pulled together 160 of the best players in the world and also wrapped around the whole thing, a major media rights deal with NBC Sports Group. Pretty cool. Paul has influenced the sport at every level, winning championships and MVPs twice in the college ranks in the NCAAs, and then also multiple times in professional outdoor and indoor lacrosse, as well as becoming the two-time world lacrosse champion with Team USA. And this conversation, I really wanted to understand how he's organized

himself to be able to do exactly this. Is it genetics? Is it that he just had this relentless approach to be his best or was it to be the best? Did he always have a disruptive nature? And so we get into it in this conversation. But most importantly, after all the success that he's had in his first craft, I wanted to understand what is it about him for him to want to take on this enormous challenge of building a professional sports league from scratch. And that's not just one team, but an entire league from scratch. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Paul Rabel. Paul, what's up? I'm so happy to be here. I am too. It's so beautiful too. I know. This office does not suck. It's really awesome. And I just moved to LA.

Did you? Yeah. So I'm in Manhattan beach and you're right here in Hermosa. So pretty close. It is good. That makes it easy. And like the person that recommended you to, for us to connect, I hold in really high regard. And so we've been able to have an incredible run together, Carrie Walsh Jennings, and one of the greats to ever play the game of volleyball. So you come highly recommended. Yeah. Well, I feel really fortunate to have not only met Carrie, but developed a nice relationship with her. And it's been more of an entrepreneurial peer- peer relationship as we're both starting new leagues in the sport that we've dedicated our entire lives to her in volleyball and me on the cross. Um, and, and even more unique is this as

a league being started by a former, in my case, still current in her case, still current, actually, um, the top player in the game. So there's the, did you just call yourself the top player in the game? A top player. Good call out. Good call out. But you've got to that point, you've got legitimate chops. I was thinking about her, but yes. Yes. I was thinking about, you know what? Like, that's a good cover. You know, this is, this is a good environment. I've spent a lot of time in sports psychology and in personal therapy. And like, I've got a, a, a family that has grounded my, not only myself, my older brother, Mike, who's my business partner and my younger sister, Rebecca in humility and like this kind of blue collar. We, we come from a suburb in Maryland and my, my dad was, um, in the, in a

sales business. My mom's an art teacher. And both grew up in like very Catholic-centric homes. And so, you know, that's another topic. I've kind of evolved my views more broadly. On the religion, spiritual path? feel, one, very lucky to have had such great parents that rooted us in that right, humble mindset. But then back to the call out, the self-call that I made. I've spent time with my sports psychologist, John Elliott, him being like like, Hey man, it's okay. You've won MVPs in championships to like, think of yourself as the top player in the game, you know? And,

and it's so ephemeral too, because there are seasons where you're top and there are games where you're top and there are seasons where you're total shit and games are your total shit. And that, that's part of the thing about referencing to others, you know, as opposed to the self-reference, like, yeah, you know what? I really understand the game. I love it. I'm dedicated to that and the other. And I feel like I'm at the top of my game, right. It's different than like, I'm the best versus my best. And so I'm not, I'm not calling you out at all. I'm just saying that like, that ends up being a little bit, I think, what I've learned is a longer game.

You know, rather than being the best, being my best. And then I don't get caught up in the noise of like where I'm stack ranked on something. It's so dynamic because in sports, we're trained at an early age to be the best and to outwork the competition, be the hardest worker in the room, never back down from a fight, like all of this like hyper-masculine, dog-eat-dog space. And it's juxtaposed really uniquely because that's like those principles are how you grow as an adolescent athlete because it's's just life is so much more linear and simple and it's just compete, compete, compete. And then when you reach that level of college and most certainly in pro, if you stay in that state of being, you, it can really deteriorate

your, your personal wellness. Um, and so that's where I was – I ended up essentially at a place where not only we lost a world championship in 2014 that like put me into this like depression because my identity was in my sport and how the community received me. But it was also like a long enough time in my life where I was then 28 and like had to reset. So – Did you – and that's where you first – That's why I called my agent and I was like, I need a sports psychologist. My brother was always prodding me to like get into therapy. What can you do? He's in Silicon Valley and everything in life is either like centralized by family or religion or locale to school or, or region and out West now where we both live, it, it seems to be, uh, a bit more

progressive and accepting of that. Um, there, there's like, you know, social norms, I think that are maybe more resistant in other areas of the country. You know, I, I think about as humans, there's only three things we can train. We can train our body, which obviously you have, you can train your craft. Obviously you have, and we can train our mind. That's it. That's all we get to train. So what I've learned from like the science will say that training, um, we'll look at the science of training the mind. And there's like, um, you know, there's evidence that would suggest here's some, what we would consider best practices.

Here's some that we're still not sure about, but excited about here's what we thought worked, but doesn't work. So like the science is really valuable, but what I've learned on the frontier with people is that they're not leaving one of those three legs up to chance, you know, the stool, why not deconstruct, explore, push on the edges as far as you can possibly go in all three. And so I don't know. I want to talk to you about identity. I want to talk to you about the depression piece and how you work through it, because that's a real big deal for all of us. chip in early or really want something and it ends up not working out the way we hope, there's a cost. And so it sounds like the key for you is that your identity got lost with outcome. A hundred percent. My identity was constantly in my sport. And what's interesting in the performance of my sport is what's interesting is with you know, with, with new media in particular,

social and digital and social climbing over the last decade, more than any other industry and with new technology and these massive companies like Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon is that, uh, we've been given, especially as a niche sport, we've been given access to community and, uh, and that allows you to build a business and allows you to grow within your sport and your sport to grow. But it also is very insular in this bubble of feedback that you have to be really careful. It's highly addictive and you're constantly being judged. And then also you can get to a place where I see a lot of athletes where – and I was one of them – where you're looking for that approval. And then when you lose that game and everyone is disapproving, that you feel like a loser. And sports are interesting because there's an immediate feedback loop to practice and then performance.

And then your performance is graded in a win or a loss. And you can go back and do it again the next week where like the long game of life, you don't get that level of turnover and turnaround. That feedback loop. That's right. Yeah. And let's say the business world, arts is a little bit different. But in the business world, the thoughtfulness of feedback loops are so inconsistent, right? Like, how do you know you're, you're, you're an entrepreneur now, right? How do

you know if the email that you just sent was great? Really? Was that the greatest email? Was that your very best email? Because you probably didn't have people looking at it. We're in sport. You'll throw a ball. You'll do this, that, and the other. You're working out with some conditioning or something. And people are helping you craft it. They're saying, hey, drop your elbow. Hey, hold your head up. Whatever, whatever. What I've found in business, which is interesting, is that especially because it's a longer game and there's so much to do that I needed to revert away from my best and perfect every time to just good enough. If this email is good enough, get it

out. And there are certainly things that you have to get right. For the listeners who don't know what I'm doing now is we're launching a new professional lacrosse league called the premier lacrosse league. We launched in October and building a league. What's the website? PLL? Yeah. Premier lacrosse league.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at PLL. But building a pro league is insane. You're essentially building six companies at once. You have your media business, your corporate partnership business, tickets, so all of your customer acquisition, your merchandise business, you have a youth business, and a community business. And you have to, different

than a technology company where you have engineers, get product market fit, raise capital to hire a sales team and get the technology out there if you there. If you're a SaaS business, like in sports, you have to race to scale because you need to bring on executives. There's so much work to be done. So things as an example, you have to get right. Like our NBC broadcast needs to be kick-ass. Congratulations on that, by the way. Congratulations on the whole thing. You know, if we go way upstream on your career, on the transition, um, you know, in the building of the new business and you're still in your, you know, and the building of the new business. And you're still in your, you know, your fit years. So you're still competing. Like I am. Yeah. Amazing dude. I was, I was stoked when Kara's like, Hey, I want you guys to meet. And I was

like, huh? And I looked and I was like, Oh, I get it. I totally get it. So it's in some ways, it's like a polymath, right? Athlete and entrepreneur. Yeah. That's a polymath in there somewhere. Yeah. And, you know, so I wanted, that's what I do want. I'm interested in your athletic prowess. Kinda, you know, like I think that it actually got the attention for us to have the conversation, but way more interested in how you went from idea and concept into actual material change in your industry.

There's this notion that businesses, Fortune 500, 100 businesses look to hire student athletes because of all these core principles that we see from work ethic to being able to bifurcate your time and that like compete level. Take direction, like feedback, want to get better, work well in communities, self-driven. Exactly. I know those are, those are essential, aren't they? They are. I've learned more in business that has, that I've taken back to my sport than I did the other way around. And I feel really grateful for that. And I also know that it's also very rare because most team sport athletes at the highest level are playing the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB. And they're going into training camp or they're going into their team facilities from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. Professional lacrosse has always been a part-time business so i've had monday through thursday

training in the mornings i had this like open time to go build and learn um and so it's through those learnings but like soft skills primarily eq that's the type of stuff that helped me emotional intelligence exactly it's helped me in my late 20 and my early thirties on the field. I just like lost, I've lowered my temper, which as always, like, man, I used to not be able to sleep after losing games and playing poorly. I was nuts. So what I hear when you say that, I hear you say, the way I hear that is that you have expanded the range. So you were like monotone before anger to frustration, you know? Right.

And then now you actually can connect horizontally to other emotions and you don't have to spend all your energy on just the, the one, you know? Exactly. And when you, so when you think about EQ, emotional intelligence, I think about it in kind of this way, and I'd love to hear how you riff off it, is first you've got to be able to recognize what emotions are. Okay? So the labeling of it's really important to be able to put a handle on an emotion. The second is to recognize intensity of that emotion. And then third is to recognize how that impacts performance or being, right? Whatever it is that is taking place in action and then recognize the same in others.

So if we can get kind of that ordering and those calibration tools refined, we've come pretty sophisticated in the emotional game. Yeah. I think, gosh, it's been such a powerful four years in therapy for me is when I think about emotional intelligence, gosh, that's like another self-call too. I'm hearing myself say, because I'm certainly- You're editing before anyone else can. I'm not like, yeah, I want everyone to know I'm not like sitting here as this like Buddha thinking I'm like evolved. And it's like there's – it's an entire life journey. But emotional intelligence for me comes down to awareness, which you nailed. And you explained it way better.

So for the sake of a podcast, I'll give you my perspective. But I was just like, yes, what he said. Awareness and empathy. And empathy is an incredibly overused, played out word. And it's a good thing that it is. I see it everywhere now. And it's challenging because it's brother or sister is sympathy. So, and they're very different, but being an empathic individual on the field or in the boardroom, it makes you just a far more superior athlete or executive. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family,

pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus standard. Every product is formulated

with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here.

Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray

glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Gray's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion.

Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMasteryMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. How do you blend empathy on the field? So here's, I think I know where you might go with this, but here's where I think

the early days that people get tripped up on, why do you care what your competitor is feeling? What do you mean? Why would, why would you care? Why would you even entertain what they might be feeling? Yeah. Right. So compassion is the ability to, um, have a sense. This is the way I think about it. It's a little shorthand, but have a sense of what it feels like and the empathy is ability to share that sensation, what you think that somebody else is going through. Exactly. So why, why, why, why would you, why do you want to care?

Wow. So, you know, it's funny. I wasn't even thinking about the competitor. I was thinking about my teammates. I knew you were. And so teammates, especially in a team sport, I grew up idolizing Michael Jordan. And as a result was like, okay, the hardest competitor equals the most successful athlete. So as he punched out Steve Kerr, if one of my teammates screws up, like, you know, he deserves to know. I think empathy with your teammates in sports is probably the best starting place if you want to work on your skillset development, because it's the most, it's the most easily identified, right? Because empathy is essentially like seeking to understand rather than seeking to be understood. And when we conflict with people relationally or on field, we're constantly, I think it's core to us to like

explain our side. And like, I wouldn't have made that pass because we either knew in the play call not to, or the defender did this. And I saw how could you not have seen it? So that's the opposite of being empathic. But why I say it's easy on the field is like, at least if you have, if you can look at it objectively is we've all made every mistake. So I've made that shitty pass. I've lost the ball. I've missed that shot. I didn't hustle to the end line. I didn't listen to the coach. So like you can actually summon that experience. And, and like, basically like if, if I was that person, like there's two things. One, what, if you're fortunate enough as an athlete and I have been in our sport to play with some of the best captains of all time,

and one of them is Brody Merrill, it's like, wow, you've played with a leader that can galvanize a group and just be like a consummate source of inspiration. You can lean on that person. You naturally, I think for me, I wanted to aspire to be that. So like understanding those leaders are often very empathic. The dynamic is around being a great communicator. So you can also empathize while also being direct and say like, this is how we need to move forward. Um, but that's, that would be one thing. The competitors is interesting. I'm, I'm, I'm far less empathic around the competitor, but at least I can like catch my conscious streaming in a place of like, okay, Paul, you're now you're being an asshole. Um, but I think, I think the other one that I like

calling out and I learned that I'll just call out my personal therapist. Her name is Lindsay Hoskins. Is that empathy, she said, Paul, you can practice empathy in a positive way too, right? And just like any muscle, whether it's our performance muscles athletically or creative muscles or muscles of empathy. Like if someone does well and you're an athlete who doesn't like to celebrate someone else's goal, then you're probably not an empathic individual and you're probably going to skew when someone's, when someone messes up into yelling at them. But if you can practice empathy and positive moments too, it's really a riching experience. So I also like to call that out. That is in the workplace as well.

I love it. Yeah, it is part of the binding mechanism for humans, right? And so we understand that from a neurochemical standpoint, when empathy is at play, there's a release of oxytocin. And oxytocin is labeled the cuddle chemical. It's a thing that binds us. Now, I'm not saying we're wanting to cuddle with our teammates or cuddle with our competitors, but it is a binding mechanism. It's a tribal, very primary thing to say, hey, we're in this together. And so if you can access empathy, it means you have to put away at some level the need to preserve. And that's part of the higher order of the human experience is to go from survival into some sort of thriving mechanisms. And if we are constantly in a place

where we need to survive, we're not doing so well. Yeah. You know, and, and listen, I have incredible empathy and compassion for people that are struggling. It's hard out there, right? Whether it's safety and shelter, food, all the way up into survival of like, do I matter? And there is a hierarchy to it. And the world is not easy. It's a hard place now. And it's really hard if you have very low command slash awareness of your inner life. One of the things that helped me become a more empathic person is to just recognize that all of our life journeys have started from a very different place. And my interaction as a 33-year-old right now with you or with one of our employees or with a competitor who's also 33 is in that moment we're judging each other based on what that conflict happened or so on. But that perspective that the other person has is built on a lifetime's worth of narrative from the way they were brought up. We don't know like how they were brought up. I've never met this person. Through their experience, even two hours earlier that day,

maybe they got in an accident that wasn't their fault and they're on tilt. Like there's just so much shit we don't know. And so just to be like, you know, I don't know what is leading to this, like what led up to this, but we have something that we need to solve for. And like, let's not make this personal. Let's just understand that we have two different perspectives that are amalgam of a number of different events. Unbelievably healthy, right? Like great work. I'm watching going. Yeah. Like he said, like it's really good. And have you ever heard that thought victor frankl introduced it to me the um the space between stimulus and response man's search for meaning yeah yeah so the space between stimulus and response something happens and we respond and the space between is

what really makes us it defines us it's what shapes who we are and how we express ourselves but if we're not aware of that space, we become these like automatically programmed humans and it's usually not beautiful, right? Unless our upbringing was so amazing and so like thoughtfully designed to be the ideal human, which that's not the case for most people. But what i want to add is that it's in that space that we have volitional control of how we respond and one of the early thoughts was that you know when someone cuts you off well you can get pissed off to your point earlier right about frustration or anger you get pissed off or you can just take a moment and be like, I wonder what's going on for them. It's a cool thought.

Maybe, maybe, maybe grandma's dying and they're rushing to the airport. Yeah. You know, like who knows? So it's a different way. And I want to mention two things before we get into your business. One is Steve Kerr was on the pod. Yeah. And legend. He's amazing.

Works from empathy. And then Satya Nadella was on, we had a conversation with him as well, the CEO of Microsoft. You know what his core value is? Empathy. So we are seeing, I'm going to include you in there, three different performers, best in class, three different domains, and a deep value for human connection. Brilliant. I appreciate that. It has to be studied. I mentioned there's four years.

I feel like I want to ask you about something that's been bothering me too, just to get your perspective since I have this time with you. But I'm constantly going through peaks and valleys still and feeling like more valid valleys, just like we feel the losses more than the wins. So I suspect, suspect that's going to consistently happen to me. Um, but it's, it's just not easy. And maybe, uh, and that's, I guess that's okay, but maybe that's where I was kind of referencing my first call out around. It's seemingly like cliche usage right now in pop culture around being empathic. And the other one is, is being vulnerable, which I think vulnerable is far more complex than just showing yourself.

I think that's how it's like being defined now. And I see it and I just kind of go, you know, it's like, it's like definite, like Webster's isn't going to help us truly like connect with these core principles. Well, vulnerability is far more risk involved than empathy. Correct. You know, so vulnerability is really, I think about emotional risk taking, you know, and empathy, you know, there's a risk there, but not as great. And so vulnerability is a tricky deal now. And, you know, Brene, as we talked about before the

mics turned on, Brene Brown was on the podcast and she's really leading the field right now in like what that looks like and feels like, and she's living it and it's like, she's on it, you know, she's doing a great job and it's hard to be vulnerable until it becomes normal. And that's what training is about making something normal. Yeah. Physical training, technical training, mental slash emotional training, make it normal. Yeah. Um, you, you probably know, and, uh, the, the, the, the definition of like the neurons that fire when we actually live in a place of vulnerability. But it may be like just a sheer release of dopamine. But when you get there and you share your weakness

and it's heard by someone, and Brene uses this often, which I love, is like be selective about the people you're vulnerable with. And that was something that I struggled with early when I started uncovering some of my personal weaknesses and challenges in my relationship and so on with my therapist. It was so fulfilling to me to finally open up. I hadn't cried in 20 years of my life, except for being in sport after losing a major game. And I started sharing with everyone. Yeah, right. Yeah.

And then Brene goes, they do know to be selective around who you're sharing. There are bad people in the world. There are people that do very bad things and somewhere like a couple of levels below that are people will use information and moments against you, us. And so, yeah,

there are proper ways to protect yourself. Yeah. You know, and then there's also this idea like, what am I, what am I hiding from? You know, like why not speak truth? Why not say I struggle with this? I still struggle with this. I get overwhelmed by this. When you said that, I felt this. Why not? At some level, like really, if we can't be true and it's not pure, what are we doing? Yeah. Because we're hiding like the realist connection in life, which is like our failures and how we feel and like our nerves. I remember telling one of my teammates that we had just traded for and he was eight years younger than me. So he grew up watching me play and I had connected with him. I'd coached him at one event actually as a pro when he was

like pre high school. And so he was all excited and we were getting ready for a playoff game and it's like pulled him in because we had built a bond over the regular season. And I was like, you know, well, I'm, I'm pretty fucking nervous, man. And he looked at me like I had six heads, but then he was like, I'm nervous too. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was really nice. Why did you do that? Uh, I, I, well, to the comment around Brene, um, I had, uh, I had built a relationship with him where we had gone kind of beyond the practice field and spent a lot of time together, talked about our lives away from sport. But it hadn't crossed over into sport yet. And that was like a real breakthrough because in sports, you don't admit any nerves. You're supposed to be like

the captain of the team and we're going to win this thing and look me in the eye and it's going to get done. So there was a level of trust there, but I was also just really nervous. So it was like a little bit more detail on it was I was over the last three weeks leading into that, I was on the brink of setting the all-time points record for the sport. And similar to what happens with most athletes is you go in like a semi-slump because you're thinking about it and just want to get this over with. But I also knew that it was becoming a distraction not only to me but to the rest of my teammates because they were – like even the coaches.

They're like, let's get Paul the first goal of the game so we get that out of the way with. I'm just like, I don't want this to happen, guys. Let's just play. But the reality is the reality, which is it's sitting there. It's this massive elephant in the room. So part of it was like, hey, this is bothering me. I want you to know that I'm aware of it. And I'm also really nervous because I don't want this to impact our team's performance and so on. So there's a little bit more depth to it.

No, it's really cool because one, it's a demonstration that you care, but maybe caring about something that you know at your best doesn't really matter. Right. You know, it's like, it's the, it's caring about the gold dust rather than the gold. Like the gold dust is the artifact. It's the leave behind. It's the notice that something special was here. And that's what the outcome is. That's what the records are. It's the gold dust. And we care about the gold dust. We're missing the good stuff. Right. And probably what you wanted was to find that space where it's like beautiful to play the game where awareness and action are merging. And it's like this fluid thing and you're unlocking the best parts of you and

loving it and working and letting go and trusting and all that stuff that why we play games and why we get involved in challenging situations. Right. So the reason we get nervous is it's not about, can I find the gold? It's what is the gold dust going to look like? Yeah. It's really well put. It's brutal, isn't it? I read a Wait But Why article on the mammoths and how the gold dust for an athlete is akin to a mammoth that's sitting on your shoulder. I don't think it's ever going to go away because it's always going to try to like creep at you and yell at you. But where you're progressing in life is if it gets just smaller and smaller. What's the mammoth? The mammoth was an illustration as part of this Wait But Why.

The woolly mammoth? That's right. Like a large animal? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So it had basically like all of our – there's two mammoths.

One of them is around like fear and emotion and And the other one is like your gold dust, like how am I doing? How am I achieving? And like the article was basically like, hey, it's okay. Everyone has them and they're never going to go away. But what you can do is like substantially decrease their impact. And what it comes down to at some point in life is like, oh yeah, that thing's there, but it doesn't matter because I'm more aware of the, of the broader sense of what impact actually impacts me. Uh, and so I thought that was good. A really good one for me. It's good visual on it.

Yeah. I don't know if I agree about the, they'll never go away. Like that feels like there's a limit to it. And if there are limits and I've been fortunate enough to learn from some of the most extreme thinkers and doers in the world, like, and I'm thinking about the Red Bull Stratos project and that kind of stuff, you know, that if there are limits to human potential, we don't know what they are. So then I'm not going to get in the business of limiting, period. I like that. You know, we don't know what they are.

We think that we're about as fast as humans can run. Wait, hold on a minute. We're going to actually change. I think we're going to change the DNA structure of humans at some point. So why are we, why, why not? Why think about limits? Do you think that's me just trying to hedge being humble? No, not humble. I

think it's you trying to work you and the person who wrote it to try to work in a model to say, it's okay to be substandard. Like that, that's just kind of the way it is. It's always going to be there. I don't, I think that we have incredible authorship of this co-creation that we're creating. And so, I don't know, I came from a kid that was anxious. I was anxious and angry as a kid. You would not have recognized me as a young kid. And so amazing things can take place. And I'm kind of like right now reflecting on, holy shit, the places I've been, you know, and the hard places I've experienced internally that maybe

even no one would recognize the amazing transformation we can take. So essentially you're saying that let's continue to strive for actualization. And Paul, what you're saying is that you won't ever actualize, but you can continue to self-actualize and limit that mammoth for a cut that out. Paul, just start focusing on completely eliminating that. Cause I wouldn't say eliminate it. I'd say over ridiculously, uncommonly, relentlessly. So index on what you're searching and hunting for the being rather than the doing and the protection of the doing not being good enough is counterintuitive to the essence of being. And so what I'm, what I'm vibing on right now is that I grew up with a model that we needed to do more to be more, do extraordinary things to be extraordinary.

And right now, right underneath like our feet, we're seeing the best thinkers and doers in the world saying, that's broken. You know it's broken too. And I'm going, yeah, it's broken. It's broken because we don't need to do something outside of us to be extraordinary. Be first. Be grounded. Be authentic.

Be creative. Be expressive. Be, be, be here now and let the doing flow from there. When that ordering gets right, I think there's incredible freedom. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new

part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference

in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone,

use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding

more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. All right. Let me ask you that question then before I forget. So something that I've been challenged with over the last year, probably more than anything, is the feeling of, and it's almost daily, I feel really rushed and I get so much anxiety because I'm trying to do an athlete and operate this business. There's so

much to do. And I'm essentially like married to this business and my performance. And I'm lucky that I get to work with my brother and the people we hired i formed great relationships with i don't think i don't i subscribe more to like jeff bezos's thought around uh abolishing work-life balance because he says like work is part of your life so what the fuck are we even talking about like like let's like reframe it so i like reframing anyway the the the like tactically um when you feel rushed and that anxiety like builds up and that can come usually from like something going wrong you're behind schedule um do you have any things that you do like whether it's a breathing technique or whether it's a kind of taking a broader perspective on what's happening how How do you clear that rut?

Let's talk about framework, front loading, and then a bandaid. Okay. So framework is that you created the model that you're living. Yeah. So you, I don't know, you created being a professional athlete and be an entrepreneur. Do you want it? You want both those, right? Yeah. Right now you want both. Okay. So is that easy? No, no. You think there's enough time to do both barely. So you're going to be rushed. You created the framework though. So you want something. And then, so to get doing that kind of lonely, lonely work, like what do I want? What am I doing? You know, so go way upstream as a reminder that one, you created the framework to it's for something, what's the for something. And if you can get really honest with yourself, that will help in those moments where you feel pressure. Okay. So

pressure is the thought that, or the experience that I need to do or think faster than I think I'm capable of doing or thinking. And so it feels like this box is closing in on us, right? Because we have to do something faster than we, we're not sure if we can. And we don't like how that feels. That's what pressure is for most people. What if you go way upstream back to the framework, reminded yourself that you built this system ecosystem of your life right now.

And there are going to be moments where you're over your skis, you're out of depth. You have to think and do faster than you had to do in the fast. But shit, that's a good stuff now. Right. That's where growth is going to come from for you. Yeah. Because you probably be bored if you just didn't, if you didn't, if you're just an athlete. Right. Probably bored if you're just an entrepreneur right now too. Like you like this,

you created it. Okay. So that's frameworks. And then front loading is the concept of what can you do now internally to have better awareness and then better skill. That's why we front load. The reason you'll do squats or this, that, and the other in the, in the gym is it's a front loading process so that you can be more explosive or better endurance, more mobility on the backend, uh, in the competitive environments, right? So front load, the mental kind of pieces, awareness, first skill, second, that's, I think where mindfulness plays dividends. Yeah. Do you have a practice, meditation, mindfulness practice?

I do. So it's not good enough then. I'm joking. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I was going to say, I do. number of different turns because of my priorities being set around timelines most recently with building this league. And so it's actually going a number of ways. Because typically when I'm in therapy and you share –

That's not what this is, bro. But when you share that moment with me, I get to like think about it and so – Right, you're shifting over. Okay. So I love being out west because it helps my mindfulness. Does it? It actually – well, I live in the South Bay, so I'm not like, I don't know really shit about LA yet, but I've visited here a bunch and I've done work here, but

being in Manhattan beach and living in Manhattan beach and working in Manhattan beach, I don't deal with traffic. I'm right near the water, the sun's out. And so, and then I, I, what I was fearful of the most was playing catch up to my calendar and email because East coast starts at 5 AM essentially. Um, but I found the days are longer. One, I've already shifted and I'm waking up early, wake up at six. When I was on the East coast, I would wake up at 7.30. So I get up. That's massive. And then the day feels longer because everyone on the East Coast shuts down at five o'clock Pacific Standard Time. So I get like, it feels like, and now it's not. But it goes to my thought originally, which was around managing energy versus time.

And my approach to mindfulness and meditation has evolved because I got into it and I quickly felt myself moving into like the sport-specific practice routine, which is like do an hour a day against the wall, right hand, left hand. We're working and we're improving. Right. And it's super regimented where like mindfulness is like embracing the non-regimented and knowing that like, if you do miss a day or a week, like that's all good. And like the notion that when you're meditating, everything's supposed to be at peace is like, well, hell, if it is like, God bless you, you're like really mindful. But like, I actually equate it more around like, you know, a traffic jam or a racetrack and there's cars flying by and those cars are your thoughts. And I'll, you know, this is accrediting Andy Puddicombe, who was a co-founder of Headspace. So you're really just like pulling up a chair to the side

of your highway and watching your thoughts race by and like knowing that you're just in this space that's almost external to self. So that's more or less my practice. I've lost regimen. I want to find a better balance because I've noticed when I know when I meditate every day, I have a better day. Um, but I'm fallible. Yeah. Well, so I, yes, the most of that, but you know, I, I, if we talk about like front loading, mindfulness is a great part of increasing awareness, the gold dust, which I'm stoked that you didn't mention is relaxation, but that's not what it's about. You know, the goal. So people think it's about better managing energy and the gold dust. No, it's really about becoming more aware. And then when you are more aware, then you can make some choices. And so what's the,

how do you want to be with those choices? Like, so we back it into who is the man or woman that I want to become? Who am I at my best is another way of thinking about that. And then if we're aware of our thoughts and our words and our actions, and we can get those to line up more often, more frequently, we're in harmony. It's amazing. So, and when, you know what, anything that's in harmony spends less energy. So I'm not looking for balance, dude, not by any means. I'm looking for integration. I'm looking for awareness. I'm looking for that harmony and efficiency.

And like, that seems to me like real leverage and power in the world, uh, to do and be, uh, extraordinary. Right. And so anyways, all that being said, uh, there's two ways I think about mindfulness. One is, okay, the 20 minutes or the 12 minutes or the 20 minutes twice a day if we're following good research practices. Then the other is like, what happens? We haven't studied this yet. What happens if I were to take 1,001 breaths a day? We haven't studied what happens. But mindfulness, living mindfully, is about that. It's about being open and aware to now, relentlessly so. And the reason I say that's front-loading for you is because when you're more aware upstream of pressure coming, then you can adjust upstream. It's much easier to do it than if you think about an analogy being in in a boat you know heading downstream on a river so much easier to guide when you're upstream to the rapids when you're caught in eddie or in the rapids or whatever it's you're just you hang on now because that power is taking you somewhere you know and so it's way better to you know go upstream on things and that's where great

awareness pays dividends. Then let's go to the Band-Aid. Okay. They don't really work. There's no real tactic if you feel pressure. Say whatever. It's like if you don't have awareness – I wish Band-Aids worked. Yeah.

What is it though? Breathe. That's a cortisone shot for athletes out there. It's a masking agent. The funny story is that um i won't say who or what it was a playoff game athlete comes off the sidelines and made the game way bigger on and this athlete is extraordinary and he's a center part of the team comes off the sidelines um during a timeout and says, tell me what to think.

And I looked at him, I was like, bro, that, that, and so now there's a moment, right? So for me to go, what am I supposed to do with that? Do I give him a thought or do I look at him like he's crazy? You know? So I took a moment and I was like, I'm not giving him a thought. I said, it might cost him the game. It might cost him a bet. But I said, I said, you got to do your work. And he looked at me, that's not what I want. I said, you've got to do your work. Tell me, this is how you want to be. He says, this is not how I want to be. He goes, give me a thought. And I said, the thought is be here. That's your thought, but you got to work for it. And he looked at me like, you know, that's not what I wanted, but that's the way that's going upstream

now. Right. That's a panic button. So anyways, what would you have wanted as an athlete? You know, I think that what you gave him was perfect. And, and it sounds, it sounds like it would be, I was putting myself in his space and, but I'm sitting on this couch calm right now. And so I know exactly what you were saying and and I think well if I was in this position you know ideally it would have hit me and I'd be like oh like you know I'm not dying the world's not over and like let me get back into like these cleats that I'm in and this jersey that I'm in and what's the score and what's this moment like and what's taking place and let's go execute.

You know what he wanted? What you probably wanted. What I want in those moments is you're okay. That's what we want. Isn't it? You're okay. You're okay. You're,

you're going to be fine. You can do this. And the tone will change to something like you're, you're fucking fine. What are you talking about? Get out there. Or, or something like,

dude, you're good, man. Yeah. You know, somewhere in that range, but that's, that's a band. That's a bandage. Or something like, dude, you're good, man. Yeah. You know, somewhere in that range. But that's a band-aid. That's a band-aid.

So what I will say is unique about sports, and I think it's similar when we get into a fight with a partner or friend, is that your body temperature increases. And so you end up getting like really thick. I do at least. And that's why I said like sitting in this chair, your response made a ton of sense and that's what I would want. But in that moment, really being whoever that athlete was and assuming that it was like super tense and he was fucking up and like there were some mistakes being made. He had to like get himself out of this rut is like you it's like really difficult to summon that like best self that assuming he's practicing with you and you'd said it's world class like he had that range but he couldn't tap into it because he was just so hot that's right uh in in uh uh diabolic behavioral training they teach you to uh sometimes put a dbt put like an ice pack on or go for a walk and the

ice pack is like really like cool off because when we get hot we we lose our range so you know me and that athlete will continue to like come to the sideline and look for you and say like give me either validation or help me get out of this rut because I'm hot. Yeah. So I did, I did a quote unquote ultra. Cause I don't know the answer. I know. Right.

So, but I want to tell you a funny story is that I did an ultra, uh, paddle, stand up paddle from Catalina to Redondo beach. It's supposed to be six and a half hours. Yeah. Um, it's not like 85 to 90% max. Like it's no joke out there coming through shark alley, coming through this, that, and the other like real conditions. And it ends up being eight plus hours for me. I got caught in a bad system, right? A head current 3.1 miles an hour. And I was only doing

3.1 miles an hour and I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to break out of it. And I was starting to hallucinate. Um, delirium was setting in. I'm aware that I'm breaking in that way, but not, not, it's not a dangerous, it's just a dehydration that was taking place. And the person, there was a trailboat for me. And if he would have said, Mike, how are you doing? I would have wanted to put my hands around him. And if he would done anything other than say, you can fucking do this. I don't want to hear it. So Alpha got to match an Alpha state. And so what he did, he just clapped.

He just clapped. And I was like, dude, it's perfect. He was perfect. It's really great. It was amazing. Alpha's got to match an Alpha state. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Beta can's really great. Yeah. It was amazing. Alpha has got to match an alpha state. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. But you beta can't do it. No. Yeah. Can't, cannot do it. It's gotta be alpha. Yeah. So you can only, you can only be around alphas.

My dog's going to bark. I think like you can only go to an alpha. You can't go to a beta, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I saw an experience um you probably had this too where an alpha was so out of control that not one person on our team could manage the alpha it took 12 incredible moment uh another question for you how do you handle the feeling of being ganged up on?

Like, so, you know, matching energy in that example that you used. I've been in this place and I've also – it's actually really been a recent revelation for me because I grew up thinking trying to like skew more logical and my parents used to tell me I should go get my JD and be a lawyer and like I could have been on a debate team. And so I say that because I sometimes will like squeeze every bit of water out of a bone in a conversation and it's unnecessary. But I've been the perpetrator of many cases in my life where I'm on the side of three against the side of one. And I never understood the feeling of being ganged up on, even if the side of three is the more practical and rational and bringing the right point of view. And I don't believe in wins and losses in conversations. So I think since, you know,

being kind of Paul 2.0 in this last four years of trying to dig deep into myself, when I have been on that side, it's, it dawned on me that like, wow, like that feeling that this person told me and this person told me this person, they said they're feeling ganged up on. I'm feeling this right now. And it's causing me like a lot of emotion. So what is your take on that? You know, not only the example that I just said, or many examples, but how do you, how do you deal with that feeling of like, because it can literally take you out of the subject matter. You're just like, fuck this. I'm being ganged up on. This is unfair. So is the question like what to do? Is this a question about like what to do when I feel that?

Yeah. So I mean, I don't get very many opportunities. So I'm like asking for tactics as well as like talking subject matter. But yeah. So do you see that? So in that, let's go back to your example. So there's 12 folks getting the one person who's out of control to calm down. How did that actually happen without that one person, not just going to an entirely not another level? He did. He did. He did. This is all caught on tape, not caught, but captured on tape. It was Richard Sherman, one of the great cornerbacks, came off the sidelines. There was nobody that could manage him. It was an incredible moment of tribe. It was incredible.

And matter of fact, when one alpha tried to match the other alpha, it made the first one amplified. New places. It happened three, four individuals in a row, amplified, amplified. They were all at a new place. And it was this brilliance of tribal innovation. They grabbed him. One of them, I think somebody, I can't remember who it was, grabbed him by his hair and trying to grab his attention. And then they just circled him. They got around him and he started hopping up and down. Super tribal. Never have I seen that before. And they're hopping up and down super tribal never have i seen that before and

they're hopping up and down matching the energy 12 to match the one then the one almost like a horse you know like you know how you get these these powerful horses together all these mustangs and they just kind of take care of each other and the energy and they match it it's fucking amazing what took place gosh yeah see if you can go find that clip. That's unbelievable. Even my hair's standing up right now. And I had no business being anywhere near it. It was this very special thing that was taking place.

It was incredible. Makes me think of so many different ways to handle those circumstances moving forward but that only happens when there's a lot of work done on connection in the lonely moments in the quiet moments of the locker room in the in the conversations about endearing caring things for that to happen on the field spontaneously i thought you were going to go the route because I'm sure you could too, if it was like a non-athlete environment where you like lean into communication, like healthy communication, that empathy and that really setting aside self when emotions are high, but never thought about like calming situation physically. Yeah. It was cool. Yeah. It was, but it was rare. So yeah, I

intuitively you're right that that would have gone to that place, you know, which is like, get ahead of it, you know, talk about things, whatever. And then when you're in those experiences and your emotions are flooding with anger that, so if anger to me is not a primary emotion, it's an emotion, it's really powerful over's really powerful overused but um when if you do a little deconstruction of anger anywhere on that scale from mild frustration to rage that there's a emotion that happens before it and that emotion is usually fear something on the fear side or something on the hurt side sad side and so if you can go to the first one, like you get pissed. Okay, good. And then you go, Whoa, what's underneath that? And you deal with that and then talk about that. If you

can with those people, it changes everything. Yep. So that, I mean, that sounds mechanical, but it changes everything. No, you're absolutely right. Dude, we haven't talked about your lead. I know. This has been really fun. Thanks. You know, but I've enjoyed it too it's why we built i mean this is the kind of this is the kind of stuff that we we believe again is like core principles of how we operate as a team um with the pol and you know a part of our onboarding with our executives and our employees and our regular check-ins and our all-ups and our individual business meetings across different units in the company is like, it just comes down to relationships, man. It does. Through relationships, we become.

It doesn't matter what we're building. No, it doesn't. You know, and your league, my business, you know, they are not going to be needed if there was a global catastrophe right so they are a luxury my business is a luxury your business is a luxury and we have to remember that at some level if there's a global catastrophe humanity is in peril we don't need sport in those moments yeah you know like we we, we, we don't need, you know, online, you know, the business with coach Carol and I that compete to create business. We need it now. We need sport now to remind us about potential, about training, conditioning, becoming, being community members, you know, that tribal stuff that happens from our ancient brain about warring countries and

tribes and all that. we need all this right now and then we also do need the compete to create like how to train and condition our mind but under peril if the things are really bad we don't need any of these we need agricultural we need some shelter you and i are going to be digging ditches you know and building houses and we're going to try to figure out how to get people lined up for a whole different reason. So, so I say that like, it's a, let's remember it's a luxury and be blessed that we have the, to live a life, you know, in that way. And so all that being said is like, I really, I'm, I'm listening to you. You're one of the few people that have come on this podcast and taken notes. So I'm listening to the questions you're asking and I'm watching how you came

prepared. You're a learner. And so that probably comes from you wanting to be better. And so I'm really curious about how you manage that deep desire to be better with being here. You know, the tension to, that I have to learn, I have to get better, which is a good tension to just settling into this moment. Yeah. Trusting that what's going to happen is going to happen and I'm going to learn appropriately.

Yeah. wanting to learn and improve. It all is derived from curiosity for me, which I think is just like most things, partly innate. And then a lot of it is nourished and groomed over time. Where'd you go to college? Johns Hopkins. High school? DeMatha. What happened in grade school or high school that changed your life? Foundational towards this curious, hungry, improvement way of living. I think when it comes down to sport, because my folks never encouraged either me my brother or my sister to play at the next level they never put a pressure on us around what did they do for career so my my dad was in pernian sales my mom was an art teacher and oh you said that yeah my

bad yeah yeah all good and um and but they they and, and, and so they were always giving us an opportunity to play rec sport. And I was given my lacrosse equipment from my next door neighbor when I was 12 years old. So growing up in Maryland, it's fairly late to start a sport that's technical like this. You're from, you're behind. I really, so I guess I'll give you two moments. I really disliked it because I was talented in basketball and soccer and I was advanced in those areas. And I was always a little bit bigger in hindsight, more athletic than some of the folks I was playing with. So I was getting on a long way when I was younger. And because lacrosse was so technical, I wasn't good. I wasn't playing and I wanted to quit. As a result, my mom used to drive me to practice twice a week, just rec lacrosse, and said, you're honoring this commitment. I said, I think those were like core principles and values of what they were trying to instill in me,

where I've learned later in life, it's like okay to stop doing things that you don't enjoy. But I think this is like the right learning lesson for me. And so I would kick and scream. So that was one. And then sure enough, like the next year, I caught on for me. And so I would kick and scream. So that was one. And then sure enough, like the next year I caught on pretty quickly and I became pretty good at it. The moment for me that I learned is my freshman year in high school, I was going to the local public school. Our coach was basically an absentee. So he would show up to a couple of practices a week and then we'd show up. It was any given day after school. We didn't know if we were going to have practice or not. My brother was two years older than me and he was the captain of the team as a junior.

So we would basically host these captain's practices. We had so few guys as a result go out for the team that I was a freshman at this big public school. I went to a small private school in middle school where there was 18 of us. Now there was 1500 in my freshman class. I was playing JV basketball. I ran cross country and all of a sudden, boom, because of escalation and no people going out for roster spots, I was on varsity. I'd played lacrosse before. So I wore a letter jacket. My freshman year, I started getting recognized. I was like, oh man, I'm pretty good. I started.

And then I was in my mind. I was like, I'm really fucking good. So I went to my parents. So hold on real quick. That's why you ended up depressed. Because your identity fused over your achievement. 100%. Right?

Like you made that link, I'm sure. Right? But that's it. Yeah. So check this out. So I go to my parents and I'm like, I'm going to play college lacrosse. I'm a freshman. I'm like up in the top county in scores.

Like everyone's telling me how great I am. But we don't have a coach. I had the awareness to know that like I need a coach. This was like pre-YouTube and stuff. So lacrosse really wasn't on television. So I didn't have access to the game outside of my peer group. And there's some great lacrosse. It's private schools in Maryland.

So my parents made a sacrifice, got me to the lowest priced private school in Maryland. It was $7,500 a year to go to DeMatha. And I show up and I got my ass kicked. Yeah. Because they were like skilled. Skilled. And so I'm like, well, maybe I'm my ass kicked. Yeah. Because they were like skilled. Skilled. And so I'm like, well, maybe I'm not as good. But it was the great bait and switch for me.

Yeah. Because I thought I was so good, it put me on a path to excellence. And I realized I shouldn't have been on that path. But I was forced to like drink from the fire hose then. That's awesome. So I feel really lucky. But I was also a fool going through it. That's awesome. So I feel really lucky, but I was also a fool going through it. That's amazing.

So that has been this gift that hardened you in the right ways, right? Like it was this gift where, oh, I am good. And then you got thrusted to a new position where it's like, I'm not good, but you already had some fuel. Like I am good, so I'm going to figure it out. But then to your point around like my identity is, is at that point when I was, um, 16, I wasn't quite 16, I was 15. Uh, I had committed my life in like the next 10 years of my life to being the best at my sport. So I was attending a school to go to another school to like go to a league. Right. So it was like, I imagine your promises. I can imagine this is the case with a lot of pro athletes. And so that's why you have that identity shift. It's like you make it at a really adolescent

immature age that like everything I'm going to do has to do with me achieving success at this sport. And you lose like the wider skill opportunity because you're just so focused on that task. And if you were to raise kids, do you want kids? I don't know. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So let's say that you were to niece and nephew or your own kids, whatever it might be, how would you help them navigate that 12, 13, 14 year phase where there's some really cool stuff happening? They've got some, you know, kind of shine on something they're doing. It could be sports arts. It doesn't matter, but let's just use sports for now. How would you help them navigate

it? So I would, uh, I would give them as much autonomy. Wait, hold on real quick before you go there. Yeah. Let's be clear that you are the best. So I'm asking the best right now, right? And you're also asking someone who doesn't have kids. So like everyone that has kids out there, don't hate me for like acting like I didn't know how to raise a kid. No, no, I'm putting you on the spot here like in a fun way. But like what would you do? So you'd increase autonomy. Yeah.

I think that's probably the biggest challenge for parents today because we continue to evolve. to generation and how, you know, Gen Xers were able to essentially buy, it was like a big survey, leave the house by eight years old or younger. And then millennials would say 10 years and now Gen Z are like 14. They're not going to house on their own. And then on top of it, society is hitting parents with negligence if their kid's at a ballpark or a local park without them. So the fastest way to growth is autonomy. But our society, and we can talk about gun control and so on, is causing us to be more protective. And then you layer on social media and how that impacts and cyberbullying as a result. So I think I get it. And so I know it's pretty hard. When I say I think I get it, to my earlier point, I'm not a parent. And so I just know that it can make decisions on their own. And like my dad did for me, like if they want to play lacrosse, hopefully I have like the ability and the resources to get them into lacrosse program and other things. But I think where I would help them

on the other really important aspect is like digestion. And so spend a lot of time with them when they fail or when they lose and spend a lot of time with them when they succeed and win. And know how to like really – going back to empathize. Really know how to empathize with them. I would do with myself, you know, when he was 15 is like sit in those moments where I had lunch by myself at a private school because I didn't know anyone for an entire semester and be like, you know, Paul Jr. Like I sat at lunch by myself for an entire semester because I didn't know anyone and it fucking sucked. and then hopefully learn the right communicative mechanic to also say like have you thought about potentially doing this um and so i think that's the best a parent can do uh without and that's essentially like rigging the system

because once you start rigging then like you're potentially causing long-term trauma. Beautiful. Beautiful. When you were 15, thinking back right now, by yourself at the lunch table, trying to figure out the social life, not working, right? It wasn't working in that frame. What was the guiding thought then? Is it, I'm going to make it to the league and show them? Or was it like, Oh my God, I hope they don't notice that I'm a mess right now. Like

what, what were some of the guiding thoughts that you'd have? I just, I think it was just more folded. I was just like, I don't have, I did. Well, I didn't have the awareness to know like what was happening. I was so centralized in my thoughts and I was just feeling shitty. So you just stay in that thought. And then I would go home and take it out. Like we, most of you take it out on our closest relationships. That's the other like irony in life is the people we care about the most are because we've built this like really safe relationship with them. And because of that feeling of safety, those are the people that we often take out a lot of our like secondary emotions, like anger and frustration out on, which is just like so unfair

and so sad that we do that. And I do that. So I would go home and like yell at my parents. You're thinking right now you need to apologize to somebody, huh? Yeah. Just apologize to my parents. It's like going home and yelling and getting mad at my brother and just projecting. So I think the other challenge, and it's a good question because, you know, how do parents know? Because the other thing that I did was I hid all of it, a lot of it, outside of like the erroneous yelling. I would hide from the peer group at DeMatha. They may have just thought I was like an introvert who wanted to like collect his thoughts and have lunch by himself. Yeah. The, the pretending like I'm okay is a wonderful strategy, but it never allows us to be connected. You know, it's like, it'll save

us, but it's not a, it's not a real growth strategy. It makes it super hard for a parent or a mentor to dig in. Yeah. No, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. No, you ain't good. Like, no, I'm good. I'm really good.. No, you ain't good. Like, no, I'm good. I'm really good. You know, it's, it's a challenge. So you have to like wedge yourself in there. Yeah. Yeah.

You, um, it's no doubt why to me, why your league, why your business is going to be successful. Yeah. No doubt. Like your curiosity is driving your ability to work hard and strain intelligently is, is evident. And your understanding of both, uh, the dark side by living the human experience of loneliness, right? A la depression, a la sitting by yourself. And as well as the, what it takes to express your potential at the highest level, you know? And it sounds like to me that you're not caught in needing the outcome to be okay, but understanding that there's a real need that we have to produce, you know, in this world of this wonderful, playful world of, of business and sport. Yeah. Yeah. So, so where, okay.

I'm building a business too. What's that? I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, so where, okay. I'm building a business too. What's that? I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I'm building a business too. And I want to learn from you. You know, I think you're early stages. I'm early stages in it. And like, what are you doing right now to maximize like your growth opportunities? What are some things you're doing? I think in empowering is really important and power, like empowering the executives and even, you know, take a step back further, making sure, you know, if you're a company like ours, where you're, we have to scale with how many workforce we're close to 20. Now we're going to be 40 by the time the season starts. Did you take on money or self-taught Yeah. Yeah. So you got a partner?

We raised two rounds of capital. Okay. So we, on the outset, we wanted to, knowing how complex this business was, bring on strategic investors and smart capital, strategic investors. They're smart and they're strategic and it's difficult to raise money from them because of the aforementioned. So it was a long process, but people knew that this was a really exciting venture because we were building the business

differently and that it was tour-based. So we were solving so that we could optimize for the venues because in this world now that's like hyper-competitive in the event space, whether it's a festival, whether it's taking your family to the beach or going to a ball game, the experience has got to be premium. So if you're a sport like lacrosse, you're a non-Big Four sport and your ownership groups aren't the NFL or NBA where they own the venues. So everything is de-optimized because it starts with the venue from your game times to the experience that you can deliver to the fans on site. So if you hooked into a city-based model and you were essentially like a low priority lease on a tenant for a non-professional venue, which is how pro lacrosse has been, the experience for the fan is not professional out of the gates. And then

you're hooked into available time slots that may not work with linear windows like NBC. So we said tour-based makes sense for those two macro reasons. And then the other is a city-based model. When we have fewer than 10 teams, we have six. We're not in 32 cities. We're not national, but the sport is national. We're on a sport, this is what our investors realized too, that has Olympic growth. It just got IOC recognition, 60 participatory countries now are sanctioned. The fastest growing team sport in the NCAA. Does that mean it's going to be in the game soon? 2028 is the target. 2028 is the marker? Okay.

It's the target. NCAA growth, fastest in any other team sport, and the fastest sport from participatory level east to west. So if we go to city markets and all of a sudden there's six northeast teams, we're actually being more exclusive to the fastest growing fan base and participants in the sport if we're tour based we can take a full season regular season all-star and playoffs to emerging markets all over the country we're national so it's 14 total 14 so 10 regular season and all-star break three playoffs and the finals championship so we we solve solve. So to your original question around financing is like, if Mike and I went in and said, we're going to build a traditional team sports league and we're just better operators than other people,

they probably would have told us to go pound the sand outside. So we say, we need strategic capital because we have a shitload of blind spots. That's why you're interesting to us because here's your portfolio and here are the companies we worked with and here are the people that are operating. So we knew that about them. We did our research.

And then we said like, this is why this model is going to be different. And you look at technology and access to like new direct to consumer trends. Boom. So you raise capital. Then you have to just go out and operate. And at the top of our list, after we have the best players in the world and an NBC deal is like the operating team. So being able to, which is an interesting, you know, kind of catch 22 that I found, it's like easy to pontificate and say like, I need to surround myself with, you know, people who are smarter than me. And we need to hire people that we would want to work for. Well, no one ever says like, why the fuck would someone who's smarter than you want to work for someone who's inferior?

It's like, so it's actually, it's great to say that, but it's super difficult to hire. And it's also really expensive. So you have to be, as a co-founder of a business, you have to be able to articulate your vision and create a culture that someone have to be able to articulate your vision and create a culture that someone wants to be a part of. And that's really, really important. And for the right people that you're looking to hire, that is more important than a potential wage delta or like, I've got a shitload of horsepower out of GSB or Wharton School of Business or HBS. And these two co-founders

have their MBA from the streets, right? Like that kind of goes away when, when like visions and culture are aligned. Beautiful. What does success look like for you guys this year? So we do have to be fiduciaries of like venture capital, right? And so that's, you know, I was thinking about it when you had brought up eliminating outcome, which I loved. I was like, God, I love that. I want to write it on one of our whiteboards when I get back to our office after this. But we have to be outcome driven because we have quarterly investor reports and stuff. But that's just for people like Mike and I that are going into the board meetings and so on. So there's actual results that we map out.

But part of also getting the right investors in a venture-backed business is you're building enterprise value. So there's not like, hey, the natural question from Bloomberg when we were in New York last week was, when is this business profitable? It's like, well, there's some large variables because of X, Y, and Z. And X can be media and where that's going to trend to. But we're building enterprise value around all those six small businesses within the bigger one that I told you about earlier in the show. And that's going to be a work. And there's going to be failures and there's going to be great successes. So we go back and we prove that out. But at a really high level, success for us means that we're serving the lacrosse community with an incredible product that they love, that they share with each other, and that inspires them. That's table stakes for

us. And the second bit of success is capturing net new sports fans over to a game that we love, which is lacrosse. And that requires sophisticated strategy. That requires the right communication lines to be tapped. But I think for a long time, lacrosse, and I think other sports have this challenge too, is they try to grow the pro game using metrics of conversion from participants into butts in seats. If you were to look at the NFL or the UFC as an example, none of them are talking about growing attendance or season ticket holders from participation. There's not this emerging MMA participation at like U13. And we know there's not in the NFL. It's actually the other way around.

Yeah. It's a decline. Yeah. There's, there's sports entertainment, right? They're inspiring. They're, they're tribal to your other point and, and they're creating a great production experience and a great broadcast. And so it's, uh, you're, you're, you're motivating people, you're inspiring them and you're entertaining them. And so that's what we have to do. And we just happen to be playing lacrosse. Really cool. Okay, brother. So how can people support what you're doing? Where can they find you? Like, what does that look like? And this is not the conversation I thought we're going to have. Yeah. Not at all. I thought we're going to talk about like the mechanics of building a business. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was, uh, I was telling Carrie, uh, this was a conversation I was hoping to have. I didn't want to, um, like hedge in one way or another because

I have a podcast as well. And I'd love to have you on it sometime, um, where I get to ask the questions and, uh, and I think it would be really beneficial for me. Um, but I've, you know, learned not to kind of fuck with like the vibe of the show. So I was actually really hoping we could do this because I do a number of things around like business.

And so I really loved it. But to follow us, PremierLacrosseLeague.com. Our Instagram is at PLL. Our Twitter is at Premier Lacrosse. We're trying to is at pol our twitter is at premier lacrosse we're trying to secure at pol it's another conversation around securing handles and cyber squatting now social media handle squatting etc so if you're if you do listen to this show and you're at pol it's it's a it's a photographer love to talk but uh that's what we do. We're launching on June 1. So all the news will like stream through our

social and digital, but 19 of our games are going to be on television this summer, three of them on the NBC main network and 16 on NBC sports. So the best I can ask for is for you to check us out. There are a number of things that we're leaning into as a sport. One thing that you and I didn't talk about, and I think this is the case with some cases, hockey and golf is because it's an expensive sport and quote unquote affluent sport that you are then a part of an exclusive community like white collar community. So we're really in intentionally leaning into diversity and inclusion, whether it's the people that we bring on to work for the company or getting sticks in hands of others who wouldn't have had exposure with our goals on field and markets that don't have access to lacrosse. So we know that if you're one of those people out there that thinks, you know, lacrosse is a rich white person sport. Like I understand why you think that and we're addressing that. So give us a chance and

then watch a game if you like the game keep watching it that's the best i can ask where can my son go in around here in la if he wants he just never played never held the stick maybe he's too old 10 i'm joking you know it's like right at that phase where two years before i got my first there's yeah there's a window here so where So where in LA is like some good spots? So we actually, I'll say two things. We announced that our HQ was going to be in LA. So I said that earlier that we're in Manhattan Beach. It was like the vast assumption was that we were going to be in New York or Boston,

like the hotbed or Maryland or DC. So part of that intentional effort is like, let's go out West where the game is growing, where fewer people have access to pros and let's put our flagpole there. Uh, but LA is also, and this is probably because of sheer size and population, uh, but also a top five participatory growing market in lacrosse and the most diverse. So 50% white, 25% Hispanic and 25% black. Um, so that's something that we're excited about now to your question. Um, I don't know the answer yet, but I'll do some research and get back to you. Yeah. Cool. Easy. Cause I'd imagine there's probably some good, uh, rec

programs, some good club programs, probably some good, like one-off events. Okay. And then, um, what is the most significant thing that people can do right now that are interested? Like, what is it? Because I don't want them to necessarily wait. Is it just to get on social and, you know, pay attention to what's happening? Yeah, it's a great question. So we have an email newsletter that's on the front of our website that I think with your audience would probably be like a good starting place because we have a lot of these conversations

around our game. And then maybe check out my podcast. I do a lot of conversations with folks like you do. So Carrie hasn't been on it, but she's going to be on it soon. But Steve Nash is another local here who's been on it. My first guest was Bill Belichick who grew up playing lacrosse, a friend of mine.

And so we sit down and talk about life and sport and so on. But I've also done a bunch of shows on building the PLL. So that's at suitinguppodcast.com. And you could just search my name on the search algorithms on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. Brilliant. Last question. What does the word or definition or how do you articulate mastery? How do you define it, articulate it?

Yeah. I define mastery as evolution. And, and, and that it's one that I don't, I don't think I'll ever achieve. I was always trying to achieve it fully, but I don't think I will because I just think, I hope that I'll continue to improve and grow in life. But evolution was a really important word for me as I, when I was going through, starting to go through a lot of therapy, I had so much regret. We didn't talk about this, but I would just think about why did I make that decision? What was I thinking there? How did I get this way? How did I start processing things? And it was like, you know, even going deeply into,

we had kind of mentioned religion and politics and social equalities. I'm like, gosh, how did I have these blinders on? I knew these bubbles and stuff that we're all in. But the other thing that I grew up with, and I think a lot of people do too, is this like hesitance or worry around change. Remember when we'd go through high school and into college, they'd be like, don't change too much on me. Remember people would tell you that? Or that person changed, right?

And it's like, oh, let's kill that. And what if you sub change with evolve? It's like better, right? It's a framing. It's a word. But when I think about mastery, it's something's like better right it's a framing it's a word but when i think about mastery it's something that is is daunting it's it's like scary to me it's something that i want to want to get to though um but also have the awareness to know that if i'm constantly chasing it and like putting a metric

to it as a result that it's going to probably lead to more pressure and more anxiety and state of being that I hate. Yeah. It's a little bit, I think if you do that, it ends up being like this, remember that toy that you would hold in your hands and if you squeeze it, it would squirt out. You ever see that, right? Like that little, like, little, like, I don't know. It's like a stress. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's a little bit like that elusive time. The more you tighten down on this is what it is and this is how I get it, that it's just squirts right out. It gets further away, you know? So it's really great. Yeah. If you had, I said last question, but if you had one question to ask, just one, a true master of craft, what would it be? Wow, that's really good. I would... I think you said Jordan earlier was kind of one of your...

Yeah, I would shift off of Jordan now though. Okay. I think, so you want me to tell you who the person would be or just ask the question? Yeah, so I think, so you want me to tell you who the person would be or just ask the question? Yeah. So I think, one, I would hope that they would give me the answer and probably be like a really long one. It'd have to be in a safe environment like this. But I would just ask them if it was worth it. That's what I would ask them. And, and, uh, I don't know who that person would be, uh, yet, but when I think of master of crafts, like of

excellence, right. And it takes a lot of sacrifice to get there. And, uh, and I've met a lot of people who are in their seventies and eighties and I've gotten advice again, going back to Lindsay who said like, Hey, you're going to spend time with your granddad, uh, in Winston Salem next week. He's 96. Like think about the questions you're going to ask him. Um, and I was like really good advice. I was like, shit, think about all the questions I could have asked him when he'd been through both world wars. Like when I was younger, I was just ignorant. But I've heard from folks that have gone through that trudge in life and have been really successful. It wasn't worth it or I missed out on these things that were really important.

So that's probably what I would ask. That's a really cool question. Has it been worth it for you? It has been. Yeah. So you're curious if it's different for them? There's a dark side. There is.

There is a dark side to this game. The dark side is the best side. Is it? Yeah. After you're through it. Yeah. I got to reflect on. There's a dark side.

Some people get stuck. You know, there's that Zen parable that there's three types of humans. You know, and they didn't say it that way. They said that there are three types of men. There's the, those that follow, how's it go? The bitter old, the old fool that was chasing monetary things. The bitter old fool, path two, that was chasing all the monetary things but didn't get them. And they're just bitter.

And then the wise man. And so it's like figuring out the deeper meaning part of being a human. And so if we're not careful, you end up, you know, expertise is so substandard to mastery. Well, I'll be even more specific around worth it. Like it's, it's worth it for me right now. But one thing that I need to think, I think about, and we'll start thinking about more is kids. Right. And, um, it's super meaningful thing in life that I've heard about and witnessed. And so some of the folks that have reached that level have sacrificed in a way time with family or even the ability to have a partner and have kids or be a single parent and not spend time with kids or not have kids. Um, you know, I don't, I, if we're sitting here like 15 years from now and I'm 48 and I'm still like, you know, now I'm sitting on top of hopefully like a really good and strong lacrosse

industry and business. Uh, but I'm like, you know, still just like working my ass off and like not experiencing life. Then maybe that's the part where you asked me that question again. And I say, no. Really cool insight. Really cool insight. I called the, uh, the government and they said you were approved for eight kids. Yeah. So, so you, you know, it's up to you now. Like you've been approved for eight. All right, brother. Appreciate you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can Thank you. do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast

and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.