Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Perfectionism, Self-Discovery, and Emotional Wellbeing | Dr. Peter Attia

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Peter Attia, a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. Peter earned his M.D. from Stanford University and holds a B.Sc. in mechanical engineering and applied mathematics.He trained for five years at the Johns Hopkins Hospital in general surgery, where he was the recipient of several prestigious awards, including resident of the year, and the author of a comprehensive review of general surgery. Peter has since been mentored by some of the most experienced and innovative lipidologists, endocrinologists, gynecologists, sleep physiologists, and longevity scientists in the United States and Canada.His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life).In this conversation, we discuss Peter’s journey – his battle with perfectionism, his quest to reinvent himself, and why emotional wellbeing is the thing that interests him the most right now.Peter is downright one of the best at what he does so I think you’ll be fascinated to hear how his mind works._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. When I lay on my deathbed, which I hope is 50 years from now, but maybe it's a year from now. We don't know how these things turn out. But I actually think that when I look back from my deathbed, the thing I will be most proud of, hands down, won't be any swim, won't be any, uh, any body of, you know, literature won't be any, you know, anything I've done as a doctor won't be any of those things. It will be the decision to basically,

um, challenge every existing belief that got me to a certain point in life and say, you're going to, you're going to go back and revisit all of that and, and, and potentially completely change who you think you are so that you don't have to be a slave to that mentality. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. Now, the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, to understand their framework. How do they make sense of themselves? How do they make sense of events around them? What are they searching for in life? What are the activities and events that

they purposely put in their life to be able to test themselves, to excel. And we really want to understand how do they use their mind to be able to refine their craft and also explore self-mastery. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, which is right at the center of most of these conversations, this is just a quick little reminder to check out the online course that I've created with the head coach of Seattle Seahawks, Pete Carroll, at findingmastery.net forward slash course. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success.

And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly

the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free.

Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery.

In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. One a day.

What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good.

Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And

I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Dr. Peter Atiyah. He's a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. He earned his MD from Stanford University and holds a Bachelor's of Science in Mechanical Engineering and Applied Mathematics. He trained for five years at the Johns Hopkins Hospital in general surgery, where he was the recipient of several prestigious awards, including resident

of the year and the author of a comprehensive review of general surgery. And you hear his attention to detail and his logical sequential frameworking that he sees his craft through. And that jumps out in this conversation. So Peter has since been mentored by some of the most experienced and innovative lipidologists, endocrinologists, gynecologists, sleep physiologists, and longevity scientists in the United States and Canada. And so his practice primarily deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan, which is the delay of onset of chronic disease, while simultaneously improving healthspan, which is the quality of life.

In this conversation, we discuss Peter's journey, his battle with perfectionism, his quest to reinvent himself, and we also get into why emotional well-being is the thing that interests him the most right now. So Peter's downright one of the best in the world at what he does, and I think you'll be fascinated to see how his mind works. And we also cover a lot of ground on application about things that you can do to improve the quality of your life as well. And so with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Dr. Peter Atiyah. Peter, how are you? Pretty good. How are you?

Good. All right. I've been looking forward to spending some time with you because you've got a point of view. You've got a real structural understanding of longevity, of lifespan, of healthspan, of what it means to live well. And so I just want to, in advance, I want to say thank you and congratulations to the positive impact you've had on so many people. So thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, cool. All right. So let's start early days for just a moment. And I want to work backwards from an MD at Stanford. It's not an easy task. Congratulations. And I'd like to kind of understand what led you there. And I'll give a frame to it so you're not on an island on this. Um, when I was a kid, I, my family didn't know anyone that had a PhD or MD like other than our physician. And so I didn't have that idea that advanced training was part of the path. And then, so I accidentally fell into it and I'm so thankful I did, but I'd like to understand what was the breakfast table? What was the dining room table like? Like what was your family structure like? Um, well, my parents were both immigrants. So, um, I think like many immigrant families,

um, I mean, truthfully, we didn't eat sitting at the table, um, because, uh, my father was working incredibly hard. So, um, uh, if we were going to, my dad had a couple of jobs when I was growing up. But his evening job was at a restaurant. So he owned a restaurant. And so if we were going to have family – if we were going to eat – if we were going to see my dad during the evening, we would go to the restaurant and eat. But we wouldn't eat together because he was sort of working. So I think that like the stuff that I get to do with my kids today was very foreign. I never saw that growing up. Um, and I don't say that in a bad way because I didn't, I didn't think, I didn't feel like I was missing that either. It was very normal to just be sitting at the table with my mom and my brother. Um, my sister came along a little bit later. Um, so yeah, there were, I don't, I don't recall having discussions about stuff. I think, I don't know. I just don't really think that was sort of something we did or had the luxury of doing.

That surprises me, you know, not, not, not the structure of it, but just the, the fact that, um, you're like, yeah, we didn't really talk about advanced training. We didn't talk about career path. My wife's family are immigrants as well. And education was a big deal in their family. And being highly skilled at something with good morals and good values, all of that was part of their DNA. I met my wife when I was 15.

And so I got to kind of experience that firsthand for a long time. But so. Well, it's not to say that my parents didn't expect me to go to college. They certainly did. But we didn't have discussions about it. And there wasn't. I mean, at that at that moment in time, it was, you know, by the time I was 13, I was working at the restaurant. And so it was really a question of, okay, well, you know, what other job are you going to get? And how are you going to balance that with these other interests you have? Because my interests at the time were not academic. They were, you know, based on physical things. And so that, that was probably the little bit of tension as I entered my teenage years and got, years and got further along in them was more and more of my attention was going into training. And then all of a sudden a gap is starting to open up

between what I'm doing and what their expectation is, which is that I should be focusing more and more on school and work. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Classic tension. And then I read a quote that you shared was that I never actually had the feeling that I was the smartest guy in the room, but I was going to outwork people two to one. Well, that was later on. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly not at the beginning. So when did you start to form that idea that it wasn't raw intelligence, which obviously you don't lack, but that you were going to double down on work ethic? Well, it really started immediately, but in boxing and martial arts. And so that was about

the age of 13. And then it transitioned into kind of an academic pursuit when I was 18. So the, the ethos was there for five years before, and I just changed the direction later. But I mean, the first manifestation of it was the, the realization. And I don't think there was a moment that it clicked, but there was certainly a realization, which was, wow, like, you know, boxing is a sport that very few people can do just naturally. Like it doesn't matter how tough somebody is to get in a ring and go even three rounds. Like you have to be in ridiculous shape. Um, and that's very different from someone who, you know, just naturally can pick up a basketball and be significantly better than the next guy, which is not to diminish the amount of work that has to go into that.

So then I realized, well, God, like if you really want to be good at boxing, why don't you just be in better shape than the other guy? And since at the amateur level, you only have to do this for three rounds. I was like, what if you trained as though it was six rounds or eight rounds and, and pushed your fitness to that level. And then when you showed up to actually fight and you only had to do three rounds, you could do it at a pace that nobody else could do. And then I just took that further and further and further. And I said, well, why don't you just pretend it's 12 rounds and cram 12 rounds into three rounds and see how that goes for the other guy. Um, and, um, and, and, and so

all through that, there was nowhere in that equation was like, I'm better or I'm strong. I don't have a, I'm not, I don't have a stronger left hook than the other guy. I don't have fast. I certainly didn't have faster hands or feet. In fact, if anything, I was slow of hand and foot compared to people that I trained and fought. Um, and then when I decided, Oh, well, if anything, I was slow of hand and foot compared to people that I trained and fought. And then when I decided, oh, well, you know, for other reasons, I'm going to do this academic thing now instead of, you know, trying to become a professional boxer. I had the same realization, which was, well, first of all, you're a lot behind. Like if you want to graduate first in your class, you're coming up, you're coming late to the party because everybody else has been in pursuit of this since they were in seventh grade. And secondly, you don't appear to have any God given talent here. It's not like you took the IQ test and broke the meter. So all you're going to do is just take

that entire, you know, platform or infrastructure you had of training and apply it to this other thing. Okay. So I'm laughing because it's like, it's a very consistent model for you, which is okay, we're going to apply a little bit extra, a little bit, we're going to take it a little bit further and you end up swimming between two islands on the Hawaii Island chain. And, um, you know, so you've got this appreciation for going the distance and I'm, I chain. And, um, you know, so you've got this appreciation for going the distance and I'm, I'm chuckling because, um, you say boxing, like it's no big deal. I'm going to, it's one of the hardest sports to get, you know, the right conditioning, aerobic and aerobic together, um, in a highly charged emotional setting. Like it's really tricky. And I did some, I didn't actually get in the ring, so I have incredible respect, but did a bunch of work in the sweet science. And there was one

drill. I don't know how often or if you did it, but, uh, two equally skilled men, uh, in this case, uh, with their left foot in the tire. Yeah. Yeah. Center of the room. Or we would do it tied together. Yeah. Tied together. Yeah. And so there's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to hide. And so tell me about that part of you that has built the understanding that there is nowhere to go and nowhere to hide. So stay here in it. Drop your hips. Lock down on your focus. Trust your stuff.

And tell me about that part of you. Well, honestly, I that part of you. Um, well, I honestly, I have to tell you, I don't think I can talk about that with much romance because I think that all of that stuff came from a very sad place. So I think that much of the drive and the perfectionism that I've had most of my life actually came from a set of beliefs that are sad, right? And our beliefs that I don't want my children to have, which is that I'm not enough and that I need to do these things to be valued either by others or by society or by myself. So I know that we live in a society that just loves to worship this, you know, dogged determination to do these things. And, and I'm no stranger to them, as you said, I mean, I learned to swim when I was 31 and 18 months later, I'm swimming the Catalina channel and, you know, told my wife before that swim, I was like, I'm, you know, I am not getting out of this water unless I'm in a body bag.

So, and I really meant it. I really meant it. There was, unless a shark came and killed me, I was not getting out of that water no matter what. And a lot of good can come from that. And you learn a lot about yourself. You certainly learn that your limitations are not as close as you think they are. And you learn about going through thresholds of pain. The second time I went to swim the Catalina Channel, I had a torn labrum during the swim. And for the last six hours of that swim, I was literally screaming under the water with every stroke so

that the people above the water couldn't hear. But it was like, I did it. Like you, I'm not, I'm not Superman. Like, and you can do that, right? You hear stories of, you know, the, the, the mom that can nudge the car just enough to get her kid out. Um, but again, the, the why is actually more interesting to me. What is it? What, what is the degree of, um, uh, of suffering that today's modern narrative is about, you know, work with your negative self-talk and just replace it. Well, okay, but why don't we actually explore where some of that, with a curious lens, where some of that negative messaging is coming from and what's the core seed, if you will, of it. And why do we keep watering that seed? And much of it has to do with approval from others, for sure. And so I want to talk about suffering, because the sports that you do are related to suffering. There's an emotional and physical component to it. And then I also want

to get to kind of a core competency for you, which is obviously about nutrition and longevity. But before we go there, let's hit suffering. And then just as a note between you and I, I did the Catalina Channel stand-up paddling. And so I got caught in a 3.1 current at about mile 27. It's 30-some miles. And I was doing 3.1 miles an hour. What, I mean, what a joke that was, you know, so it added an extra two and a half hours to my training or to my experience at the end, you know, and I full hallucinations, I completely bonked. I wish I had your guidance on nutrition because, um, uh, it was not what I hoped it would be, but I learned everything that I went out for. And so, yeah, those things are amazing. I mean, I was very lucky that the people

that I was surrounded by when I decided to get into marathon swimming, which was a very short season of my life. I mean, it was really a four or five year sport for me. Um, but they, they told me very early, like you don't conquer any of these things. Like you're not going to England to conquer the English channel. English channel is going to tolerate you for 12 hours. Maybe it's like same as Mount Everest. Like nobody conquers Everest once in a while, Everest lets you up. Um, so what were you doing it for? What, what was the, the why underneath? Like, so, um, I like, I like slogging away at things where you can get better with a lot of work. I think those are things that just appealed to me. And so in January of 2004, I was actually in my residency. And I remember one night, I, for reasons I don't know, I was reading about this woman named Penny

Dean, um, who had set the, and I believe it is still the fastest crossing of the Catalina channel. Um, this was in the 1970s, the late 1970s. I believe she crossed the Catalina channel. Um, this was in the 1970s, the late 1970s, I believe she crossed the Catalina channel in seven hours and 15 minutes swimming, which I mean, 12 plus. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not only that, like the pace at which she was swimming is the pace that most good swimmers couldn't swim a mile. I mean, it was just perfect conditions. I mean, she was an amazing swimmer and then the conditions were perfect and it was amazing. So anyway, I got reading about this and I hadn't even heard of the Catalina channel. You know, I was like, I'm on the East coast at this point in time. And I was like, ah, started reading about that. And I just got really

interested. And I was like, God, that just seems like it would be an amazing thing to do if you could learn how to swim, you know? And, and so it, it, it, I don't think it's the type of thing that now I would attach my, uh, interest to, but at the time it was like, okay, well, all you have to do is really like learn how to swim. And well, if you took some swimming lessons, you could learn how to swim. And then I did. And then I, so I took a weekend seminar and I met this guy and we really clicked because everything he talked about made total sense because he talked about swimming in a way that was really about physics. And it brought back all of my boxing plus my engineering stuff. So at every break, we'd be talking.

At the end of the seminar, he introduced me to a woman that would go on to become my first swim coach. And, you know, it just sort of snowballed from there. Um, now I can't tell you that I was really scratching an itch because at the time, I don't think I knew that this was just another manifestation of needing to graduate first in the class, needing to, you know, be good at this, needing to be good at that, needing to be good at that, which is all basically an inferiority complex. I think on the surface, what it was doing was demonstrating an obsession with trying to master something new, another skill.

It's the same reason I chose surgery. Surgery was the most technical field of medicine. And it's the same reason I was not just attracted to surgery, but attracted to the most technical parts of surgery, which is I think they're serving two masters, which is the master of low self-worth and then the master who truly gets pleasure out of learning something. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust

Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3.

And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray.

I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for

longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's go right underneath the surface and ask or explore this idea is this is the opposite of suffering. And I don't think we're done with that part of the conversation because I want to talk about suffering in general for people, why we're so afraid of it and why the narrative of self-help is so problematic in so many ways. But what gives you, here's the question,

and I don't mean this to be bombastic in any way, but what gives you the right to say that I can be world-class in something? I can swim the channel. I can do surgery. I can go to one of the top universities. How does that part fit into your psychological framework? Because you have it in there. You're talking about low self-esteem or a narrative that is diminishing in some respects, but it also, there's something else that allows you to step into world-class arenas and say, ah, yeah, okay. I think I can. I don't know. I mean, I guess I would take a little bit of issue with the terminology. I don't, I'm not saying this to be falsely modest. There's nothing I've done world-class. I mean, I have the luck. Yeah. But there were 85 people in my class. So it's not

like I'm world-class. I mean, you know, I'm one of the guys in the class. Right. And, and, um, I mean, world-class to me is you're the best, you're one of the best people in the world at something. So I want to be clear. Like I don't think I have the potential to be world-class at a single thing. Um, okay. Hold on. The only time I ever wanted to be truthfully, the only time it was ever really an obsession was as a teenager, I did want to be the middleweight champion of the world. And that by definition is a world-class endeavor. Interesting because how many, do you know how many people have swam the Catalina channel? I know that I was the 120th and I suspect that the sport has become much more popular since I first swam it. Um, I wouldn't be surprised if it's close to four or 500 now. Yeah. So, and you would, you would say if I won it, it would be

world-class as an ocean swimmer. Yes. If I set the world record for crossing the Catalina channel, then you could say you're world-class like Michael Phelps is world-class. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Good framework. You know, I, I appreciate, and I, I, I sincerely appreciate the, the call out on the false humility, you know, um, it's a bit nauseating, but you are saying in a most humble way, ah, there's the tip of the arrow and then there's the tip, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, look, we were talking about driving beforehand, right? Like how good am I in a race car? Well, it depends. If you put me in a car with most people, yeah, I'm a very good driver, right? If I could, I could make a car do things that would scare most people to death.

But here's the deal. Like I watch formula one constantly. I go to F1 races. I'm very close friends with one of the formula one drivers. And so I understand the chasm between me and a professional driver, let alone an F1 driver. So if the F1 driver is the tip of the spear, cause let's call a spade a spade. There's no sport that is more selective than F1 where only 20 people get to be in the top league. When you think about what those guys are and you think of how far the gap is to where I am and then how far the gap is for me to everybody else. Sure, I'm in the top 0.1%, but it might as well be an eternity to the top 0.0000001%. I might ask you to bifurcate world leading versus world class. Being in the top small percentage that you talked about is certainly, I would categorize world class. And then world

leading, different animal, completely different animal. But, um, yeah, so we had total Wolf on, on the podcast. I, I'd spent some time in Mercedes, um, you know, with him and, and, uh, it was amazing experience, like the precision there. And, uh, I don't want to oversell anything I did with him, but, um, I learned a lot. Yeah. I learned a lot. Okay. Brilliant. All right. Let's get into some of the good stuff. I don't want to miss the suffering piece because it's really important, but I also want to, I want to pivot just slightly and talk about the nutrition and the kind of overall understanding about, you've got a beautiful model about five pillars that you

pay attention to. And so I want to get into that, which is maybe you can frame it up, but biochemistry, physiology, sleep physiology, distress tolerance, as well as what you put into your body, the molecules that you put in. Where are you most interested? Because you don't get through this world without some understanding of all five, whether you're, I don't know, literally just trying to figure it out based on what your ancestry passed on to you, which sometimes is good, sometimes not, or you're in the field of, you know, precision sciences. And so is it nutrition for you? But I don't, I would guess, but I don't want to make that assumption. No, definitely not. It's not. Okay. So, well, first of all, I mean, one doesn't want to create a false equivalency that, you know, this is the most important or that's the most important, although it's very tempting to do so.

And in certain people at certain points in time, it's more important to emphasize one over the other. So I guess just to restate what they are, I call them the, you know, the kind of the five levers, right? What are the five things you can manipulate to improve your lifespan and healthspan? So as you mentioned, nutrition is one or nutritional biochemistry, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, distress tolerance, and frankly, all the tools of emotional health. And then all the exogenous molecules you can put in your body. So what drug supplement hormone can be used to optimize your physiology from the standpoint of an external molecule? So again, like if a person is having an Addisonian crisis at that moment in life, which means is, you know, for example, they might have an infection or they've suffered an injury to their adrenal gland.

Well, if they don't get hydrocortisone massively infused into their system, they're going to be dead in about 24 hours. So there's an extreme example, but that's an example of where the exogenous molecule is the single most important thing to save a person's life. A type one diabetic can't survive for the most part without insulin. And therefore, an exogenous molecule or hormone is the essence of their existence. So context matters greatly as you think about these things. But again, each of us has to now think about how we balance a portfolio across those five things. So the question, if the question is, Peter, which of these is the most intellectually interesting to you? That's one question. If the question is, Peter, which one do you think is the most underappreciated? That's one question. Which one has the greatest bang for its buck? That might

be a different answer. And as we age, which one's experience the most need to be tinkered? That also might be a different answer. So I don't want to answer all those questions because that's too many questions, but I don't know which one is specifically your, your interest. Yeah. My interest was which one do you naturally gravitate to? And, um, there's a reason I'm, I'm asking that question because, um, take for example, uh, the way that one shares love. Well, the one that the way that one shares love is likely a reflection of what they're wanting most in return. But it doesn't mean that's what the other person on the other side of the love giving is wanting. And so the first question was really about

which one do you naturally gravitate to? And I would have guessed- Intellectually or as a practitioner? Non-specific to me. Look, I think that, I think intellectually, I'm quite interested in this idea of emotional health, truthfully, because I think it is the one without which, I think it's the one that gets the least attention in this field. Um, remember my field is different from your field, right? My field, unfortunately, unfortunately is sort of littered with the fecal excrement of biohackers and idiots. So everything is about what's the minimum effective dose to do this and boost your brain this and do this and do all this kind of

nonsense. And, and then if you, if you leave the excrement filled layer of that world and move into the truly scientific world, uh, where actual scientists talk about longevity, um, and in a very rigorous way, I think the one piece that is missing is, you know, how does all of this matter if the state of your relationships suck, if the state of your own mental and emotional health is suboptimal? In other words, if you're suffering, does any of this matter, right? If there's a way to live an extra 20 years and not just live longer, but live longer with a sound body and sound mind, but you are suffering emotionally, you're unhappy, you're unfulfilled, you're constantly wanting. I'm just not sure that that's a life worth living. So understanding and examining that to me is actually very interesting

as unscientific as that is. Yeah, no, this is part of the longevity conversation is that yeah we can get ourselves to live longer you know most likely that is where much of the science is going to advance that opportunity and if we take a thin slice of it right and we just look at today and let's say that let's say yesterday you ate fish fish and vegetables that grilled up in just the right way and you ended up getting good sleep. You had the right hydration on board, you exercise, so your carriage is oxygenated in all the right ways. And the first thing out of bed is frustration, intolerance, worry, critique, judgment, all evidence of a deeper suffering, of not being okay with being here, that that is not a life that any of us want to live. And let alone 2020 has actually given us

that evidence that that's how most of us were working. And then it's not lost on either of us that if you wake up that way too many days, then not the stress levels, the chronic stress levels, distress levels become problematic to a whole host of other things. So fascinating to me that you go to the invisible world first. I wouldn't say first. I mean, I think the reality of it is it's been an evolution. So I think probably the thing I gravitated to first was nutrition. And then I, I think, you know, nutrition and exercise probably made the most sense to me initially, ultimately molecules and sleep. So I think this was actually probably the fifth and final

realization. But at this moment, again, I think this is the one where I just find my interest most aligned. And also part of that is my knowledge is probably much further on those other topics at this point. So the rate at which I'm learning there is slower compared to the rate at which I'm learning here. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I think the fun part about this. But if we just think about the way thoughts and relationships or thoughts and emotions work, it's fascinating because it's not like, oh, I know the model that fits the majority of people. These psychological frameworks are bespoke and they are finely tuned and sometimes very fragile. It is, it is, it's a whole world that I, I love the science of psychology. I think it's a beautiful science. I think it's a complicated art

and it's refreshing to hear that you're interested in it. With that, let's pivot over to nutrition. We're both going to be lockstep on sleep. Get it together, right? Like as one of the big rocks in the container. And if I were to put out, I say this all the time, but it's such an easy example, an apple and an apple pie, you know which one is healthy, right? For the most part. And people choose the apple pie a little bit more than the apple. Same with sleep. We know. Seven to eight hours for most people, you know, 87% of the population needs about that. And so let's jump over sleep and get into some of the nutritional stuff. And I got a whole host of things. And that being said, I do not want to get down in the weeds. I like to spend time at principles, you know, in the principle practice, but also some of the very applied things I think are really important. When did you start to notice that you thought a bit differently about nutrition than maybe the rest of the world, but maybe part of your sub-community of MDs?

Well, again, I would never take credit for having an original thought in nutrition. I want to be really clear on this. I actually think there are some things I've thought of that are quite original. Um, I think many of the things I think about in longevity are quite original. Nutrition is not, there's probably only one original thought I've had in nutrition if I'm going to be blunt, uh, literally one original thought and it wasn't at the beginning. So at the beginning, what we're really talking about was simply on an individual level, the realization that what I thought was right turned out to not be right for me. That's a rather uninteresting statement, right? There's very little applicability of that statement to anybody else. It was, Hey, you've had a strategy where you've eaten a certain way

and you thought it was the best way, but it produced an outcome that wasn't so good. You changed it and you did something quite counter to it. And the results got a lot better. That's odd. Why is that for you? Again, very selfish. Um, and, and, and then that sort of is what got me a little more interested in nutrition. Um, and where I am today, which is 10 years later from when that journey began is, um, you know, really trying to think of nutrition in the least religious way possible. And, and if you were going to ask me to rank order those five things, I gave you what my first one was. I can tell you what my last one is. It's certainly nutrition and it's the one I'll

absolutely go out of my way to avoid talking about. So I really appreciate you bringing it up. And it's the reason at parties, you know, if I if I meet you know we don't go to parties anymore which is fantastic I mean it's been one of the greatest achievements of kovat is social distancing and not having to interact with people but when when that day existed when you did have to do those things I just couldn't wait to talk about anything else and come up with a different identity so that nobody would ever ask me a question about nutrition. I mean, I simply can't stand this subject matter because it's so charged and it's, it's like talking about religion

or politics or guns. And I've never seen people, I've never, I mean, I shouldn't say never. You rarely see people having smart conversations about them when they come in with strong priors, right? When people show up with very strong, strong priors on those subject matters, it's usually nonsense in terms of a discussion. Um, so my interest in nutrition is purely from a biochemical lens, which is like, don't, I don't want to talk about diets and not that you've asked about these things, but I don't want to, I don't want to talk about diets, not that you've asked about these things, but I don't want to talk about any of those other things.

Let's just talk about what does the body do with glucose? What does the body do with amino acids? What does the body do with fatty acids? How do these things move around? Where are people going to differ? How is exercise going to impact the way these things work. And hopefully by being able to talk about those things in that way, it becomes a little less wed to a lot of the nonsense that I just find so unpalatable that I almost rue the day I somehow became associated with nutrition.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly

routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now.

And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for

you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. First, you're not going to just sneak it by that you have a disdain for parties. I get a sense that you're a deep introvert. How can you, yes, I am a deep introvert. Deep introvert. Yeah. Yeah. I just like the idea, like what, are you an extrovert? By training. So I have a high preference for introversion, but by training and social conditioning, I've built that extrovert bit quite a bit.

See, that's so funny. So by nature, I'm an introvert and by training, I've honed it to become an even deeper introvert. And in fact, in fact, my wife who is, you know, in as much as a Myers-Briggs gives you some sense of your personality type, my wife is a, you know, she's an E and I'm an I. And I have brought her over to the dark side. Are you an introverted feeler or introverted thinker? Oh, thinker. Come on. You're an introverted thinker?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a very strong, on every one of them, I'm a very strong ISTJ. Yeah, ISTJ. So that would mean, though, that you're an extroverted feeler, which I don't get any of that from you. The one I've learned to do, there's one that I can do very well both, which is N and S. I can toggle N and S very well. Intuition and sensing. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. And your wife, she was an extrovert and you've actually- She was a very strong E and she spent enough time with me to realize the merits of introversion. And she's like, yeah, we don't need to go hang out with people. That sucks. We're going to hang out with our friends, but we're not going to go meet random people and stuff. Why would you do that? My wife is an introvert too,

you know? And so I've had a deeper appreciation for it. I just, I, so it's really about gathering energy. If you go to a social, a gathering and how do you gather your energy? You can still be an introvert and have an amazing time at a party because you're hanging with one or two people and you're going deep and you're kind of hanging off to the corner or the side of the room and it's like this amazingly stimulating conversation with all this noise of other people but you have no interest yeah provided we're not talking about my shtick i mean that gets back to kind of what you and i were talking about before nutrition yeah yeah it's like i mean you know like two weeks ago i went out with a friend and we went out and did some tactical shooting. So we went out and we were with a bunch of special forces guys and we went through a pretty intensive program, you know, really getting into the finer details of like, what does it take to, you know, you know, take this rifle and, you know, hit a dinner plate a thousand yards away.

And you could argue, God, there was like strangers there, right? Like I didn't know these people. And then I, we, but, but that was super enjoyable because the subject matter was super enjoyable and we were going really deep into something like that. Now, conversely, if, if I had to go to a conference on nutrition, let's just say you somehow like snookered me into it. You told me it was a formula one conference and it turned into a nutrition conference and then you locked the doors and I couldn't get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, all the deep one-on-one conversations about nutrition wouldn't do anything for like, that would kill me, right? That would deplete me of energy. So I think it's, it's not just the

depth and intimacy. It's also, I think the subject matter and the interest that, that factors into energy depletion versus energy capture. That's it. Yeah. So do you write a bunch or like, how do you, how do you make sense of your thoughts and emotions? Is it, um, there's lots of ways. I write like crazy. I i mean i put out a newsletter every sunday so that's like a blog post a week um i've just put it in the finishing touches i just put i just submitted the first draft of my book which is 180 000 words so the first publisher right now that's looking at it has said we're gonna have to do a little trim back on that one. So books around 50, 60. Right, right. And I had trimmed this down to 180. So I already thought that we had trimmed it back.

And I journal. So I do I love writing. Do you journal as a reflective process? Or like I thought and I felt something throughout the day, let anchor it or do you muse when you journal like it's more beginning of the day about ideas that you want to explore no it's the it's the former it's the former more reflective yeah and then do you have a structure or do you just is it more free-flowing free-flowing. Is your mind structured or a bit chaotic? Wildly structured. Wildly structured. And do you have a, is your room messy or is that also structured? Very structured. Risk taker or rule follower? I used to think I was very much a rule follower, but every time I take one of these tests that assesses it, I come out as a very aggressive risk taker, actually. So I'm a bit surprised by that.

Yeah, there's five types, like financial risk, emotional risk, social risk, physical risk. Yeah, I mean, again, I think these things change. Like you could argue, Oh, like getting into a race car, like that seems really risky. Well, I don't know. I think my understanding of actuarial science is high enough that I don't like I was on the track two days ago, you know, going crazy. That was way less risky to me than actually driving on, you know, the roads. Because, I mean, as you know, you get into a race car, it's a very controlled environment. You're in a perfect machine. You're on a track that is actually built with the expectation that at times you will take the car just past its limits. You will spin. Here is the consequence of it. You're in a fire suit, a crash

helmet, all those things. And if there's another person on the track, they're as good as you are, right? And you contrast that with what it's like to drive on the two lane road next to my house, which is basically everybody's a moron, like literally a moron. And they have a smartphone in their hand and they have a smartphone in their hand, and they have a coffee in their other hand, and they literally have no idea how car dynamics work. Peter, when I stop and think when I'm driving, which is dangerous to actually assess, it scares me when I actually assess the danger when somebody's traveling 50 miles an hour at me, and I'm traveling the same speed towards them, And the rate of distraction, as we know, is at an all time high from, you know, well, we don't know, but we think from a human standpoint from 10,000 years ago, like it is scary.

It's a, it's a dangerous thing. We don't talk about that enough. Like we're kind of drowned out with some very other more pressing, uh, activities that are taking place across the planet right now. Um, but yeah, it's a big deal when, um, when Kobe Bryant died last year, um, uh, Bob Kaplan and I, who's one of my analysts wrote a very long two part, uh, series on this, which the first one was basically on putting, putting a helicopter death in context, right? Which was obviously the first reaction you have when you see this tragedy is, oh my God, helicopters must be the most unsafe thing on the place of the earth. And it's like, okay, well,

let's put that in the context of all flying devices. And then the next week we came back and wrote a piece on, if you really want to understand what's crazy, let's do a double click on automotive safety. And that double click turned into how are you most want to understand what's crazy, let's do a double click on automotive safety. And that double click turned into how are you most likely to die in a car? Because as you may know, accidental death is the only form of death that exists across every age demographic there is. So there's no decile of age that does not include accidental death as a top 10 cause. Now that type, what type of accident changes. So it can, you know, it could be, uh, you know, it can be falling, it can be auto accident, et cetera, but, but automotive deaths are an enormous cause of death. And it turned out my intuition going in was highway must be, no, actually my

intuition was intersection number one highway number two everything else a rounding error turned out to be wrong intersection was indeed number one but a very close number two if my memory serves me correctly maybe this was number one was the situation you described um the two or four lane road with no median, um, at a high rate of speed, 50, 60, one near our house is a 60 mile an hour road, two to four lanes, depending on where no median. Um, in the last six months, we've had two fatalities on that road. That's just a death road. So, um, you're absolutely right.

And so, so when people say like, Peter, do you have a high appetite for risk? It's like, I don't know. I don't think so. Because when I'm on that road, all I'm thinking about is who's trying to kill me today. Well, you know, I asked that question to Alex and old legend, you know, free soloist, free climber. And, um, he doesn't consider himself a risk taker. And I spent a lot of time in that adventure and action-based world. And most of them that are alive say, no, no, no, no. I can take care of risks now. But I manage and take risks intelligently. And I just happen to be in a physically consequential environment. And so the consequences are radical if Alex makes a mistake. But he's so skilled. He's like, the risk that I'm taking, well, to somebody else is enormous. But for the skill that I hold, it's calculated.

And so I think we're saying exactly the same thing, which is whether you're in a race car that you're driving versus out in the road, or Alex climbing El Cap or my 12-year-old is trying to climb a tree. It might be more dangerous for my 12-year-old to – well, it is for him to climb a tree. By the way, Alex is world class if you're looking for another example. Just if you wanted another example of world class. So your humor is dry too. How do you get loose, Peter? Like, I mean, you're intense.

I've been told my whole life that I'm intense. But you take this to a different level for me. I don't know. I think I have a – actually, it's funny. I just took a personality test. I don't remember what it was for recently. Um, and it, one of the things that looked at was, you know, mirroring how you are externally versus how you are internally at home. And so I, I, if you say, how do I relax? I mean, like the second we're done this podcast, I'll be relaxing cause I'm going to go goof off

with my kids. So, um, I, I don't know. I don't, I, I think, I don't, I just, I do hear that a lot. I guess I just, that's probably something I'm blind to. I probably have a blind spot to intensity. Oh yeah. I mean, you're highly intense, but it doesn't mean that you don't know how to toggle between, let's use some brain science for a minute. Um, let's call it beta brainwaves, which is this high, deep, focused, nearly anxious electrical brainwave. And it doesn't mean you don't know how to toggle from that to theta. I don't know if you – when you send a text, do you send it with the same intensity that when you're going to do surgery? Probably not.

Well, since I don't do surgery anymore. I don't know. Again, it depends. I goof off a ton. You do? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I goof off an unbelievable amount. Yeah, I don't know. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore.

When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery, it's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research

behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I use it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12 month money back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product. And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community right now, they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FindingMastery at irestore.com slash findingmastery. Again, that code is findingmastery at irestore.com slash findingmastery for exclusive savings.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from

their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose. They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because

quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Okay. How about let's, let's kind of move back around to the suffering piece for just a moment, because sometimes intensity can be a way that we deal with suffering. And other times it's not, it's just a, it's just a way that we are kind of organized and it feels at home and there's nothing wrong with it. I was, I was made to feel badly about my intensity most of my life. And then when I came to just kind of say, I am intense, I said, oh, okay. Like I can just kind of settle into it, which that took me a little bit too long, maybe. But what is your suffering? And again, this is not meant to put you on an island because I have great respect and regard for what you've done.

And I'm happy to share my core suffering as well. But I don't think we talk about it enough. I think people are starting to become ready to embrace suffering rather than hacking your way through uncomfortable experiences. But I think you've got a strong point of view about what it means to be uncomfortable. Yeah. I mean, I, um, let's see, that's also evolved. Um, I, what could I say about that? Um, Hmm. I don't, I don't feel like I suffer nearly as much today as I used to. Truthfully, I think I've been on a, a pretty difficult journey for the past, uh, three and a half years. Um, that has included, I hope as much suffering as I need to go through in a sort of self-afflicted way.

I don't doubt for a moment that there's going to be lots of suffering that's going to come in the next 50 years of my life that I won't have any control over. That's just what life is. But when you really think about self-afflicted suffering, I want to believe I've crested that hill and that I've experienced the greatest sum of that in the last few years. Um, and there were a couple of nodes where I had to make a decision about whether commit to a lie, which is those things can't be changed. That's just who you are. You are broken. Everybody else is going to have to learn to accept it, or that's just the way it is. And, you know, you're going to live a lonely, miserable life, but so be it. And, and I, so I think that that, I think the, I hope, I actually think that when I think when I lay on my deathbed, which I hope is 50 years from now, but you know, maybe it's a year from now, we don't

know how these things turn out. But I actually think that when I look back from my deathbed, the thing I will be most proud of, hands down, won't be any swim, won't be any, uh, any body of, you know, literature won't be any, you know, anything I've done as a doctor won't be any of those things. It will be the decision to basically, um, challenge every existing belief that got me to a certain point in life and say, you're going to go back and revisit all of that and potentially completely change who you think you are so that you don't have to be a slave to that mentality.

The richness in that is not lost on me. And where I went first when you're describing was like, wow, look at that. You've been in it lately. And I would, where I would go is like, aren't loving relationships important? Cause that's just where my intuition goes for you, is it has to do with love. But I don't know that. You don't need to talk any more about it. But to re-examine fundamental first principles. Shit, that's good.

That is so hard to do. And to do it in a way that holds those principles up where you can really see it and how you've adopted it and sometimes how you think that you've adopted it, but you really haven't. That's for me what gets really interesting because most people I know from their mental models, from their first principles and axioms is that they say, oh, it's this. And then when you give them an opportunity to actually demonstrate that virtue value first principle, um, they are not ready to actually live in alignment with it. So consequential environments, um, most people think about that as being physical, but consequential environments are when you really learn who you are. And some people come up, well, most people come up short because we haven't, we haven't done the training, you know, the inner deep work to say, these are my

fucking first principles. And, uh, I'll be damned if I'm going to compromise those for your opinion of me. Yeah, it's hard. Um, and there are times I wish I did it a lot sooner. Um, but, but it's, but I don't dwell too much on that. I also think I probably wasn't ready to do it sooner. So it really makes no sense to think of it that way. Um, and it's, it's just, I'm really grateful that I got to do it when I got to do it and I hadn't wasted too much time because it would be, it would be sad to me if I'd gone my whole life and not done this and figured it out in old age when I'd lost everything that mattered. There you go. Amen to that. And so is there a process that you've gone through for that introspection, meditation, mindfulness? It sounds like writing. Um, no, I mean, look,

it was deep psychological therapy and I had to, you know, I went away, I went to a place, um, in December of 2017 called the bridge to recovery. Um, and so that was in, uh, a residential facility, um, a trauma-based facility. Um, and then, um, about a year ago, I went to a place called PCS in Arizona, Psychological Counseling Services. So another residential place. So between those two, spent five weeks in residential, inpatient, you know, nine hours a day of brutal psychological therapy. And I would say that that has hands down been the cornerstone of it. And then it's not just that it's on the back end of those things, you know, creating a recovery contract, having, you know, doing five hours of psychotherapy a week, creating accountability, people in my life, journaling, meditating.

It's been all of the above, but I don't think for me personally, anything could have happened without the incredible intensive therapy because of my barriers. Um, they, they, you know, I have a patient who has been through so many things and has been doing well with outpatient therapy, but she's sort of hit a wall. And I just said to her, I said, look, I don't think you're going to get where you need to get, no matter how good your therapist is, by two hours a week of outpatient therapy. I think you need, you know, three weeks of 10 hours a day seven days a week because it's not the number of hours it's the amount of energy that can be compressed into that experience in the absence of any other distraction and frankly you have to be

broken in some way like you really have to sort of break through a lot of the the traps that exist. And it's too hard to do that an hour or two at a time. You have to do that in an immersion. So the analogy I gave her was I would probably have an easier time learning a new language if I went to that new country for a month and couldn't speak. Like literally nobody spoke English, than if I took the equivalent number of hours of class once a week. Yeah, no, no, no. That goes back to the tires, you know, uh, the tires in the mat or the tires

and, and, um, I'm sorry, one foot in the tire boxing. Yeah. And then, so I think you might appreciate this is that I don't see clients anymore. I have like one or two, maybe a month. But the way that I do it now is we roll up our sleeves, eight hours in a room, one day. And that kicks us off. And so it's a monthly program. And it is, one, we're both exhausted at the end of it because we go places that are so emotionally charged, but we get to clarity.

And could we do that the next day and the next day and the next day? Yeah, but there's a diminishing return because of people's tolerance for truth seeking. So I think you're right on the money with what it takes to get real change. It takes time, compressed time, deep focus. An hour a week is an insurance model. It's not a transformation model. And unfortunately, that's what drove much of both of our industries was the insurance. If I do a slight pivot here, what's the one thing you understand most?

I mean, I could come up with sort of, I think, things that are uninteresting. I think I have a very good understanding of why nutrition science is flawed. Like it's, I could teach a PhD course in why, you know, why nutrition science is unreliable. And here is every pitfall and blind spot that exists in it and not every bit but certainly the majority of them so i probably have an outsized knowledge of a topic like that not that that's interesting but i'm just gonna go well that's why i like your but that's why i like your uh like the three factors you know diet, diet restricting, restricting of time, and then calorie restriction, like those three factors, you know, what'm imagining, I don't know this, but I'm imagining that you're trying to pull on those levers for longevity panels to understand what are the choices that people are making and how is that impacting, you know, their actual physiology. But I don't, I mean, that's a, it's not a hard guess for me. No, no, yeah, we do. Of course, we rely on everything that's available.

You know, blood can yield some relevant insight, but it has a lot of blind spots. And that's usually one of the first things I talk about with a patient the very first time we do a review of their very comprehensive blood panel is first understand what the objective is. So if the objective is longevity, that means living longer and living better. So let's define what those things mean very specifically, and let's lay out what the impediments are to each of them. So the impediments to a long life are these six things. The impediment to a high quality life are these three things. Okay. So we've double clicked on those. We've layered out exactly what they are. Then we talk about where blood tests yield valuable information.

So we look at the mechanistic driver of atherosclerosis, right? So one huge impediment to living a long life is atherosclerotic, cardiovascular, and cerebrovascular disease. That is hands down the number one killer in the developed world. And therefore, any effort to live a longer life must have a strategy to confront atherosclerotic, cardiovascular, and cerebrovascular disease. So then you need to understand what drives those diseases. They're first and foremost driven by lipoproteins. They're driven by endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, metabolic dysregulation, the list goes on.

So then you double click on those. Well, what does that mean? What's a lipoprotein? Does it a lipoprotein? So you can turn that into a very complex matrix very quickly. And then you go through what can be measured in blood. So now you have the what can be measured in blood matrix lined up with the what matters matrix and where they overlap, you get a green dot and where they don't overlap, you get

a red dot. And your green dots is where blood helps us. And your red dots is where you have a blind spot. And so you have to look now for other ways to assess risk on the blind spots. And we can rely on the blood testing in this case as a way to assess risk on the green spots. So I think that's just why I find the longevity puzzle so exciting is because it's just so hard. And it really relies on a mosaic of information that has to be kind of meshed together. And none of it's complete. Yeah, it's a tapestry that is so,

you've got an outsized knowledge to use your language, but it feels like a mythical ridgeline for me. And I've studied it, like, not to the intensity, obviously, that you have, but I have studied it still feels a bit of a mythical ridge line and the mythical ridge line is not that i'm looking to live 200 years i'm not i'm not interested in that i know some people are i'm curious how long you think you're going to live but the it's the micro choices you know like okay um how do i where do i go and how do i actually materially get better on those medical conditions that are going to shorten life? My GP, he doesn't know it. So then where, where do I go? Well, Dr. Atiyah, like I got to call you up because, and you know, there's not enough people in the world that like you. And so I don't know where, where's the starting place. And I'm with all sincerity,

I study this. I really appreciate it. And it's still foggy. Yeah. I mean, I just don't know. I mean, that's part of why I wanted to write a book was obviously to at least put the framework out there because I think the framework is actually more important than the knowledge because the knowledge is evolving. And so again, this might turn into be a bit of a battle with the publisher, right? I think publishers are normal people and they just want books that sell and the books that sell are the books that tell you to eat this and not that and do this type of exercise, not that type of exercise. Cause those are the things

that are in vogue today. Um, and I think a book like that is as valuable as a warm bucket of hamster vomit. Because one, if it's even right, you're lucky. And two, even if it is right, it's probably going to be wrong in five years. So I'm really interested in a framework. Everything I do is based on a framework and I want people to understand the framework. And let's take the framework and apply the best knowledge to it today. But more importantly, make sure that in five years when new knowledge is available, you can still apply it to a framework. Yeah. And this is where you and I overlap on frameworks because once you get first principles in place, you got frameworks that can map across wide swaths. And I'm not, nobody's saying a framework is perfect, but at least it can

stand up and it's sturdy, then you can drop down to practices and specific decisions that you can make to enhance those skills. At least that's the psychology world. But I love the idea of restricting the window of food. I'm new to it. I'm about a year into it. And I've noticed a massive difference when I restrict my feed into, I'm doing 14 hours on a regular basis. And maybe I should have some undulation in there, but 14 hours to 16 hours is what I'm doing on a regular basis. HRV is through the roof,

sleep patterns are through the roof. I don't know other stuff because I'm not doing daily draws, blood draws and otherwise. And is that different between male and females? I think the research would suggest that women are like there's a value at 12, but not necessarily 14 to 16. I don't know. I think it's all a bit too soon to say on time-restricted feeding. And it also depends on what metrics we care about. I mean, for some people, the issue they're most interested in weight loss, for others, it's certain parameters of metabolic health. And I think the benefits are going to be different

in different populations. So I think it's probably too soon to speculate, truthfully, at least for me. Yeah, I definitely appreciate that. Okay. I want to wrap this up with you. I want to say thank you for giving a glimpse into who you are and how you work and knowing that there are mountains of information that you're sitting on and that you're working at the framework level is I so appreciate it. And I think the best way for people to follow along your adventure and you're, you're leaving a breadcrumbs and sometimes loaves of bread. Is it the podcast, the drive? I think so. Yeah. I think the newsletter and the podcast, um, are both weekly. Um, and yeah, the podcast is called the drive comes out every Monday and, you know,

deep discussions on all the topics we just touched on and more. And then, um, and there's a weekly newsletter that, you know, usually writes about some of this stuff. And, um, um, it's, uh, it's the best we can do right now to try to catalog this. Although I think it's still a work in progress. I, I wish there was a way that we could just, you know, have a place where the person could say, Hey, I have a question about X and this is the perfect place to go. And unfortunately still, sometimes that means listening to, you know, a podcast, but our team does an awesome job. We have the, probably the most detailed show notes in any landscape. So for a given podcast, we'll probably have 20 pages of show notes and the podcasts are timestamped. So, you know, even though they're very long, they're typically two to three hours long. It's very easy to click through them and

get to some subjects that are relevant to people. And you've got a membership model as well, correct? Where people can find more information and, you know the take the adventure with you just a little bit further so um yeah i'd recommend people if that are serious about wanting to get better that you know you check out your resource and then a couple little quick hit questions here if you were to sit with a master somebody that you could spend deep time with um who would that be dead or alive it doesn't matter to me but like oh come on, come on. Dad, if you're going to give me dead, that's, I don't know. I are Tencenta maybe. Oh yeah. Okay. And then alive. Um, well, since I already picked an auto racing legend, should I stick with that? Um,

I'd love to go, I'd love to go driving with Sebastian Vettel. Oh, you would. Sure. Well, I, you know what, getting in one of those cars are like, you're probably able to do it. Um, put me in the back, you know. I'd like to get in the back of one of them. If there's a question that you were to ask Senna, what would that be? One question. Here's the reductionist. Come on, play along. Let's play along with the reductionist model for a minute. Am I asking him, this is, sorry, you're going to play along with me now if you're going to do that. Does he already know he's dead? Is this post-death? Let's go. Let's go. Yeah.

I mean, I'd want him to settle once and for all. Well, I'd ask him why he raced that day. Why on May 1st, 1994, did he choose to race when every, every, I have to believe that every bone in his body knew it was wrong. He was in a horrible state of mind. You know, Rubens Baricello's crash Friday, Roland Ratzenberger died on Saturday. He was very unhappy with the car and he went out and he pushed it way too hard. And, you know, I think that that's what ultimately cost him his life. And I guess I'm not saying that I would ask him why he didn't retire, but he wouldn't have been faulted for sitting out that race. And I would ask, I would want an honest answer as to, did he race that day for him or did he race that day for the nation of Brazil?

Heavy question. Super heavy question. What are you trying to sort out in your life efforts? Because that question there speaks to an insight about the responsibility and the pressures that come from outside of oneself. And so when you just think about your life efforts, however long you're going to be here, what are you trying to sort out and do? Uh, you know, this is not going to be a satisfying answer to you, I'm sure, but I actually, I think the only thing that keeps me up at night is, um, is just wondering if I'm doing the right thing by my kids, um, which is a hard one because we, at least I disproportionately spend time on things that are not about my kids, my work and things like that. But I, I think that's the only thing that I have real concern about is what am I doing to,

to allow them to be the best versions of them, even though I don't know what that means. In other words, I don't know how much adversity is optimal. I don't know how much suffering is optimal. I know it's not either extreme. I know that they can't be mush, like they can't be marshmallows, right? And I know that they can't be tortured. So I just, without knowing what environment is right to produce the best version of them and knowing that it's not going to be the same for my three kids, like I just, I do lose a lot of sleep trying to understand how to be a great dad and how to have a great eulogy because I, I do, I don't know if you're familiar with David Brooks's, uh, book, the road to character, but it's, it's definitely one of the most important books I've ever read. And, um, when I, when I think about, I think about it every day, right? Which is what are my eulogy virtues versus my resume virtues. And we spend most of our time on our resume virtues, but the only thing that matters is the eulogy virtues. So, um, I'm just trying to be better at those and care less about the resume ones. Uh, and he's a great writer. I mean, a great writer. And so that frame, um, I really appreciate

when he introduced it. And you wouldn't know this, Peter, but it's the thing that scares me the most too. And one of the silver linings of COVID was that I travel like 200 plus days a year and I was home. I'm not traveling like that anymore. And so it answered in many ways that, uh, I can help you on the top, uh, the toggling of stress. I can help you with that with your kids, but, um, it's, it's not, it's not a simple equation as you would imagine, but Hey, I'm, I feel like what a gift the nesting with the family has been. So I appreciate that haunt. I appreciate that deeply. Peter, thank you for your time. I really appreciate how you work and the clarity of the

words that you choose and the mountains of information that you've accumulated to get to some frameworks. So I want to encourage people to follow along. Is there social that you're driving people to or is it the website? Yeah, social is PeterAtiaMD at Twitter and Instagram. I don't do much on Facebook. Appreciate you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone.

The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers.

Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.