Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Pete Carroll: Competing to Be Your Best

Episode Date: April 27, 2016

Coach Pete Carroll has a philosophy. It's clear to him. He's found it to be extremely powerful to help himself and others to become the very best version of themselves: Always Compete. He doesn’t talk about past success. He doesn't become consumed with what is yet to come. He lives engaged in maximizing wherever his feet are.In This Episode: -Why having a chip on his shoulder helped shape him -The importance of being present -How competition fuels him -Why you can’t be afraid of failure -Creating your own reality -Helping others become optimistic -The moment he knew he had a different vision for coaching -Relationship-based approach to coaching -Why he doesn’t need to talk about winning -Dealing with difficult outcomes -The moments between the moments -The importance of the Seahawks culture -How he instills a risk-taking mentality in his players -Getting to the truth of what went wrong when mistakes happen -Why it all comes downs love_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And in this conversation, we get to learn from Pete Carroll. He's the head coach and executive vice president for the Seattle Seahawks of the National Football League. And Pete's central focus, it's really crisp. It's creating clarity on the thoughts and habits and practices of what it takes, in his words, to build a culture that is relentlessly focused on helping people compete to be their very best. And to be able to do that within highly competitive teams of people who have varied views of the world and varied skills and attitudes. And when it comes to winning, Pete is one of the very small number of coaches who have won both a Super Bowl and a college national championship in football. And with that in mind, I think that you'll be surprised on how he thinks about winning and ultimately what's driving him. And I just hope in this conversation that we capture or that I do a good enough job to capture his players and the coaches and John Schneider and the scouts and all of the staff of the Seattle Seahawks. You know, it's just been a flat out joy to learn from and share with, you know, a extraordinary team of people. And I just,

I just want to thank you for the opportunity and the experience that we've had together. With that, let's jump right into this conversation with Coach Pete Carroll. All right, here we go. So, Coach, this has been a long time coming. And what I'm looking forward to doing is being able to really try to understand how you've become one of the best coaches in the world and the path that led you to now. That's nice of you saying that. Okay, let it rip. Let it rip.

Okay. So, um, if you can kind of pull the curtain back a little bit and give us a sense of how early life was, and here's the thought, if you could riff on like there's people and events that shape who we are. And if you pull back the curtain and who are the people and the events that tend to pop up for you when you think about who you are as a man now? Well, I'm pretty old, so there's a lot of stories in there. But really what happened to me is when I was a little kid, I was a pretty good athlete and I could do kind of anything. And I didn't grow like everybody else grew when I got to high school. And so I had this image of myself that I could be the best baseball player, best football player, best basketball player and all that kind of stuff.

And all of a sudden in ninth grade, I was a dink. And I didn't have the – I had to get special clearance so I could play freshman football. Well, it held me back all through my high school years. My high school years were really frustrating to me, particularly athletically. And I felt like I was somebody totally different on the inside than I was able to show on the outside. And so when I finally grew up and went to junior college to try to fill out and all that, I started playing. Things started happening football-wise.

And eventually, it still happened late even then. By the time I was in the middle of my sophomore year, I had a chance to go to the University of the Pacific and play football. So everything was really guided by – I wasn't able to demonstrate the athletic ability that I had inside my head and that I knew I was capable of. And so I developed an enormous chip on my shoulder. I had something to prove. And I've been different ever since then. So that really was the time and it was so frustrating for me because, you know, I just

– I felt like two different people, you know. And so anyway, that's – I really think that's what changed things. I was always competitive and I was always battling and having fun, always playing everything. But my mentality changed because I wasn't able to show it and I couldn't wait and so to let it out and finally you know I had a really productive time in college playing football and it worked out great and you know I want to be in the captain and we had a good team and all that kind of stuff happened and it wasn't quite good enough to get in the NFL but because I failed a couple times but but up until that point you know it was just waiting to bust out kind of. And so I, that's never left me since. And it's been the kind of the competitive makeup

that's carried me all the way through this time now. And I don't know, it's just become me. And so this, the competitive fire, when you talk about chip on your shoulder, what is, what is the, what does that mean to you? It's something to prove, you know, that there's that there's that that uh nothing's really good enough you know i never get enough of what i need to get to show what i can do and and uh doesn't matter how many times you win or how much you win by there's just there's got to be more and i can't wait to do it the next time and you keep coming back you know uh and and it's really it's it's uh developed a mentality of outlasting your opponents you know outlasting whoever you're going against and being the one standing at the end no matter what it is whether it's developed a mentality of outlasting your opponents, outlasting whoever you're going against

and being the one standing at the end no matter what it is, whether it's an endurance race or whether it's a hoop game or whether it's a football game season, career, all of that. I've said so much, Mike, that I don't even want to evaluate

how things are going. I want to wait until it's over and look back and then make a declaration. Did we do okay? Did we do all right? Did we prove something? That's how you reserve judgment while you're competing. Constantly. Yeah. Constantly in, in, in, in holding back judgment and, um, and postponing

that, uh, till there's nothing you can do about the outcome that's at hand, you know? So that's been, um, it's been something I've learned, but it's been something that's really been come commonplace for me. So how do you, so if you could teach us the way that it feels or what is it like inside you when you're on the sidelines or you're at practice and you're reserving judgment, meaning you're not casting judgment on what just happened, a mistake or success. What is it like inside you? Like what are you actually doing? That's a good question because this is kind of going to be a common answer for you and I, and that I think it's really enjoying being

present and being right there right now and, and, and maximizing the fun and the, and the good things that are about to happen. And even when it's not going well, you know, I'm, I'm in the mentality that things are going to turn and it's, we just give us one more shot. Something's good is going to spark us and away we go. And so I don't, I know I don't live in the doom and gloom thing. I'm not, I'm not regretting the potential outcome going poorly.

You know, I don't think that way. I don't feel that way. And I don't, it's never in my mind when we're performing. There's sometimes like, you know, I'll, I'll feel like,

God, I'm surprised this is so hard. You know, why does it have to be this bad? You know, because it's going to get good, but why does it have to be this bad? You know, because I just don't go there. So the judgment thing isn't even, isn't even a factor, you know, cause it's just the next moment, the next moment and trying to be as present as possible. And, uh, I think I found myself doing that before I knew I knew it was helpful. You know what I mean? I didn't do that as a task or as a strategy. It just became part of it through a bunch of other things that we've done.

But I think it's really worked out well. And I like it because it's fun and I'm clear and present in my thinking and stuff. And it allows me to be poised. I cherish that because I can think pretty clearly in the middle of all the action and stuff. And I don't feel like I, you know, I kick myself in the butt for getting stuff or missing chances very often. You know, I feel like I'm able to pull out the stuff that should be pulled out, you know, that's appropriate for the opportunity. Is this why people, when they look at you, they, you've had this tag that you're like an, what's it, what's it like a player's coach or a rah-rah guy or an enthusiastic coach. I can't even think of what those tags are.

But what you just described is not that. What I hear you talking about is that the framework that you operate from is that something good is going to take place. Really what we're talking about is optimism. It's optimistic. And then you're reserving judgment so that you can keep enjoying this moment, whatever this moment has, whether it's a challenge of ball just got turned over or the challenge of we just went 60 yards. Yeah. Mike, it's a performer's mentality. As you know, you've trained people for years to be present, you know, so that you can max out what, you know, all of your focus at that time. I've learned that. And so later on, it made sense to, to

excel in this, in this regard, you know, to be really good at being right there right now. And when we're at our best, there isn't a future and there isn't a past. You're just there in the moments. And so it's no different for me as a coach as it is for a performer, a player or whatever you're performing. I think it's a way of life, to tell you the truth. And it is about being mindful and being present and maxing out and giving everything you have to the opportunity that is right at hand. And so that's the way it's been. Okay. So I've got two questions on that. How do you use a chip on your shoulder and that framework

of being present and having fun and enjoying now, whatever now is, whether it's something that most people think is bad or something that good. I know you don't work from that place, which is this is bad or this is good. You work from this is. You know, the depth of desire to prove that you're worthy, you know, is what is in the back of everything. You know, I want to keep pushing. There's like, I want to outlast people. I'm going to be there long after.

You know, they're still, you know, their competition is over kind of thing. And that's just something about just mental toughness. I think that, you know, my high school coaches and Coach Trotman and the guys that brought me up and raised me, you know, some must have instilled. But you can have that instilled and then it's different when it's like that's your life, you know, and that's the only way you know how to live. And that's why, you know, when you're a competitor, you know, you don't rest. You're either competing or you're not.

I mean, all those phrases come to mind, you know. We're in a relentless pursuit of finding the competitive edge in everything we're doing. You know, that's a mentality. And you can't – you're either competing or you're not. You're either working at doing better or you're going the wrong direction. So that means you've got to be on and you can't be satisfied. You're not easily satisfied. There's nothing that's going to make you, you know, get where you're feeling too comfortable because you've got to be on and you can't be satisfied. You're not easily satisfied. There's nothing that's going to make you get where you're feeling too comfortable because you got to keep pushing and keep having – there's more fun to be had.

There's more good things that are going to take place. I've said this for years too. My mom really was a positive influence and she was one that – I don't know where it came from or how, why she did this, but she instilled in me that, that something good is about to happen. And that, that just became all part of this, this optimism that, that really is, I know it's a big deal in our program. It's a big deal in our approach and, and we don't want to be any other way. It really is that what allows people to play one play at a time because you believe that, okay, well, whatever just happened there, it's about to get good. Yeah. And you're not worried about, about failing. You know, I've been asked lots of times about players like an off season. Do you

let your players ride motorcycles? Do you let them go skydiving? Yeah, I do. I don't think something wrong is going to happen. A lot of people say, well, Hey, this guy could trip and fall or, and this could happen and he could be injured to me. That's a simple way of explaining it. I don't think that things are going to go wrong. And so those people that think they're going to go wrong, I kind of think have a tendency to trip and fall more and stumble a little bit more often. And they find their way to prove themselves right. And I think I do the same thing.

And I try to instill that in our people. And I can't tell you that it's always worked out, but it hasn't been an issue. And I'm on the other end of the spectrum from the guys that are being highly protective and trying to secure situations for people and then keep them out of harm's way. I think needlessly. I think the mentality of everything's going to work out, it's going to be okay, and you're going to gain from it. You're going to be bigger and smarter and broader and wiser because of the things that you indulge in is a better way to go. So for those who have a different inclination and they worry about stuff or they think about what could go wrong and they do more of a cost-benefit analysis or they're just more negative, how could you – I think the question is – I don't think the right question is how do you train to be optimistic because it's so organic and it's, you've done it so long, but how can you help others to say, listen, this is a better way to go. And this is how you can do one small little thing to try it. Well, you know, I, I just, I think that

this is a, the power of belief in the power of vision, you vision things to happen as you wish them to come about. You intend for them to come about in a certain manner, I think is a huge benefit. It's a huge tool to have if you can do that consistently. If you believe things are going to screw up, I think it happens more. And I think that I've learned and I've just been impressed with the thought that the intentions are such a gift if you can manage them in a positive, directed, well-organized fashion. And you gain by it. It reminds me of the person that gets told that they've got cancer and you've got 90 days to live and they die on the 90th day. And then you tell another person that and they say, there's no way. I'm not going.

And they'll live for 10 more years. You know, it's if you, I think if you give in to it, whatever the outcome is, you have a more likely chance that it's going to occur. I don't have the science behind that. Maybe you do. But I just know. I just know that that's how people heal themselves. That's how people do great things. You don't luck into great things when you feel that it's going to happen. You make it happen.

You create it. So, you know, the old phrase by creating your own reality there that's that is important to me and that's i believe in that and and i'm going to go down thinking that when we came to seattle i didn't think we were going to falter i thought we were going to create a monstrous program i thought i thought that would happen we're going to do it exactly the same way and show that you could do it in the nfl and it just happened before our eyes. I think we've created a great program here and we're on our way. Someday we might look back and say this is a heck of a run and we'll find that out. But I think if I'd have thought of anything else, there were people that told me when I went to USC, oh, it's not like it used to be. You know, it's in Oregon and Washington and they've taken over the Pac-10 and, you know, it'll never be the same.

You know, there was the heyday. And I said, well, let's just wait and see. You see. I don't think that way. Let's wait and see. And so I just believe in this power so much. And of course, you have to be optimistic. So how do you help somebody? I think you show them, you help them create visions in small areas of their lives of how they want to create things. And that's just where the magic begins. The magic begins when somebody decides that, yeah, I think this can occur. Okay, then that's where the coach comes in. And the coach keeps that individual in connection with that vision in a powerful way of demonstrating

to them why they're worthy of continuing to think that. And as they continue to stay immersed in the thoughts of what could come and you're showing them how they're making strides and they're getting closer to it, the power starts to overtake the individual and things just, they're created out of what you would think maybe never could have happened. And so I just believe so strongly in that. Go back to something you asked earlier. Why do people think you're a player's coach or whatever? I think it's hard for people to imagine that a football coach on this level can have so much fun and can enjoy it and live it in the positive end of the spectrum. You're so used to the authoritarian taskmaster coercive approach that's classically military, classically in sports and in leadership.

That's a great way to lead. That's just not our way to do it. And so it just looks different. And so there must be something wrong with it. It's really, I think, what people, you know, they're just having fun or they don't take us seriously in a sense. When I think we're as disciplined, as strict, as demanding as we maintain the highest of standards that we can create for our guys and make them live up to it day after day after day. It just doesn't look

or feel the same when you watch it or when you participate in it. I think our players will attest to that. They like what we do. They like being here. They like being part of the program. They look forward to coming to work. They like developing the relationships. They know we're going to be good relationships. They know we're going to be good relationships. They know it's going to be a winning relationship. And so everything is moving in that direction. That doesn't feel the same as other systems and other setups. And then so when people classify it, they have to go somewhere and they say, oh, they're just having fun or, you know, it's a college atmosphere.

You know, it's hands off. They say the laissez-faire thing and all that kind of stuff. They don't get it. And I don't really care. It would be nice if they understood that you could go this way. I think it's a wonderful way to carry out your business. And we've had a blast doing it. And if we're not having fun, I'm screwing it up. So that's just been a guideline forever. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And when did you start? So how many years have you been coaching at the elite level in football? I don't know. I've been coaching since I was like 22 or three years old. So it's been 40 years, you know, coaching. When did you start to notice that you thought differently? And it could go before football. I don't, I don't know. Like, when did you notice that your approach to challenges? I really, I have one precise moment when it really made sense. When I came running after, I came running back to the office when I was coaching at the University of the Pacific. And

I just had a night meeting during camp with the defensive backs. And I had decided to ask the guys what they needed to work on. And what do they feel like? If we worked on it and the drills and stuff, how could I help you? And so we had a great discussion. I was filling up the board with all the guys' wishes and stuff. I thought, okay, I'll figure out a way how to get it done in our individual periods. And it was one of the best, it was the best meeting I'd ever had. Energized, pumped up. And so the meeting's over. I run back to the office.

I'm so fired up. And I run into Coach Kattis, Chester Kattis, our head coach, a longtime defensive line guy, old school as you can get, big man. And I tell him, Coach, you won't be able to have the best meeting I ever had. I was so fired up to tell him. And as I'm telling him that we're – I'm asking the players what they need to work, I said, what? I said, yeah, they were giving me suggestions and stuff.

He said, you don't ever do that. You don't ever ask your players what they want to work on. You tell them. You're their coach. I don't want you to ever do that again. And I just was crushed, you know, because I loved my coach and I loved Chester and I wanted to please him and all. And then I thought later, I remember later thinking, well, maybe he didn't

get it. This was really a good thing. So I did adjust a period, and I did things and kept that conversation going. And I've never been the same since really. I realized that connecting with the people and helping them take part and be part of what they're involved in can draw them in in a way that can take you places you can't get to otherwise. So let's pull on that. That is this concept that we talk about, a relationship-based approach. Yes. Okay. So let's dive into, I think people will be fascinated to unpack this idea that you don't talk about winning almost ever, right? That is the thing that we're bartering on. Like if you win a lot, you get to do this a lot. But you don't talk about that. And so can you pull back as much as you possibly can in the limited space we have to be able

to talk about a relationship-based approach to getting the outcomes that are extraordinary? Yeah, there's a couple different things here. And let's come back to the winning thing too. But I basically feel that our job is to help people be the best they can be. And then what can I do? How can I facilitate someone finding their very best? Whether it's a coach or administrator or the players, that's the whole direction and focus of our work. That thought is so pervasive in everything that you do that it drives the relationships because you're thinking about

that thought often. Yeah, exactly. It starts right there. So if you really do believe that then and you are going to compete like we do, it's central theme in the program, we're going to compete to do that, then you never rest. And so that means to help somebody find their best, I need to figure them out. And we use the term learn the learner. Well, I got to figure out who the learners are and figure out how I can best communicate with them. What do they need? What do they need? They don't even know that they need. And so you have to work with people and we have to put them in different situations. I think it's misunderstood a lot of the things we do around here. Why do you have fun? Why do you do these little events? Why do you shoot hoops? Well, I want to see guys in every situation I can get them in so that they'll give me more

information. And we should be flooded with input for who they are, what they are. We say to our guys that everything counts. They are telling us something in everything they do, how they dress, how they walk, the music they listen to, who they hang out with, how they eat, how they don't eat, are they disciplined, do they take notes? I walk, the music they listen to, who they hang out with, how they eat, how they don't eat, are they disciplined, do they take notes? I mean, everything, if you pay attention, if you're a great observer. And those are the inroads to understanding how to best figure this person out. So it has to be relationship-based. And that mandate that you have, you almost insist that of your coaches. We do.

Yeah, we do. Yeah, that forces them to be present. It forces them to be right here, right now. If you're going to do it well, right. Right, because the mistake is to make preconceived ideas about how somebody is going to be or do something. And what you're challenging them to do is stay open to it. See how this looks today. See how they feel today.

Okay, so Mike, why we don't have to talk about winning, we need to talk about performing at our best. That's what we need to talk about. Understanding that when we perform at our best collectively, we're really hard to beat. We've proven that over years now. I'm so far gone committed on this thought that it's the winning-losing thing, the end result, the judgment at the end of it. That's not – you can't focus on that. If you focus on that, you're missing all the things that are happening in the meantime. And what really gets you there, the good plays one after another, after another, the execution, one step at a time, one thought at a time. And then if you,

if you believe and trust in that, the outcome will turn out the way you want it to. I'm, I'm gone on that. I totally believe that. I think that that's an evolutionary thought for coaches in sport that I saw and picked up through Coach Wooden and through some performance things that made sense to me about being present. That focus just detracts from performance. It can take you away. And being caught up in the result of something, whether you won or whether you lost, can affect your next outcome as well. So all of that needs to be washed and pushed to the side so that it fits where it should fit.

And you have fun, you have a blast, or you learn from the hard lessons as well, but you let it go and forget about it and get back to performing. That's why every day is so important and every step we take, we try to learn how to discipline ourselves to focus on that which is right in front of us right now and only be concerned about the things that we can control, which is the next step you take.

And if I don't help these guys practice this in everything we're doing, we won't develop the skills that it takes to be great under the deluge of issues and concepts that come at you and the pressures and the stress and the media and all the other influences that can affect you. So we have to be great at focusing. And so we have to practice focusing forever as often as we can and never, never rest on that thought. So somebody that's come into your office, and I hear this all the time, is that you've got three TVs. You've got two monitors, you're looking at film, listening to CNN all at the same time, which is almost very contrarian to a popular and science based approach about how to train focus. But you've got such a chaotic, I think you like it. I can't explain that. You know better than I do what it's all about. I don't know that.

But I guess I've been influenced to realize that you really can't do a lot of things at the same time. However, I can bounce around to a lot of different things and kind of keep them going. And so I would rather have a lot happening than the silence and the quiet. And like in games, I want everybody on the headsets. I don't need it to be quiet to think clearly. I want all the input. Give me all the input. I'll figure out what I need from it and I'll be able to respond and react the way I

need to. So I think that's just a personal makeup. Well, that's an interesting thought because your office mimics what you do game day. Yeah. There's a comfort for me when there's a lot going on. Yeah. Okay. How do you train in the quiet? What has your experience been on being able to focus when it is quiet? So it's easy when it's noisy. How do you train the other part when there is noise? I think I like it when it's noisy. I like the interaction. However, you know, there's times when I shut everything off too. When I've really got to dig at something, I've got to find out what I really feel about something.

Like for instance, the nights that we're at the hotel and I'm preparing for my night meetings, which are really, really important to me, there's a time when I know, okay, I can feel the clock ticking and I turn it down. I turn it all off and I'll just get quiet. Sometimes I just sit and don't even move. And it's really just meditating on the thoughts that I want to bring together and what it feels like and try to get to the feeling of what I want to convey. And so in those times, I'll utilize the quiet to get that done. Yeah. Okay. And then, you know, people, the conversation between process and performance versus outcome and every play, there's an outcome and you're not interested in that. That's a piece of information and you're investing the team and yourself and the coaches back onto

the process. When we think about outcomes, you've been the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows, and you've had all of them. When you think about outcome, and most people want to go to the recent outcome where you won a Super Bowl and lost a Super Bowl or the team won and the team lost a Super Bowl. What has been one of the more painful outcomes? Maybe it's not that one, but is there something that comes up that you can teach us about how to deal with really difficult things? And certainly people think about Super Bowl. Yeah, I think one of my biggest disappointments is not finding the right language, the right presentation, the right mentality to share with people to get them back on course, to see them have

to suffer and grieve over a loss or an outcome that is going to, that suffering, that grieving is going to affect what is happening next. That's, I really take that personally and it bothers me that I, because I hate to see people suffering through their inability to move ahead and to let things go. I get it. I understand it. And everybody's different and unique. And I respect that tremendously.

But it still makes me pain to see people not able to move on and capture the next set of opportunities that are coming their way based on the outcome that happened before. And so, you know, one of the great illustrations is our Super Bowl that we lost. You know, it was such a dramatic loss in such an instant of the flash of a moment that I just wanted us to move ahead and keep going. And I knew that I was going to, you know, be in the position and the spokesperson and all of that. And so, you know, I tried And so I jumped at it. I took it on right from the very instant it happened. I knew I was on it. But I think helping people appreciate the fact that you need to put things in a place where they belong so that you can move ahead is really important. And it takes discipline and it takes coaching and love and support to help them through it.

And I mean, this illustration, forget it, it's a dumb football game. For all of the people that have their setbacks and the outcomes that shatter their world, you know, there is a mechanism to get back. And that is to know that what has happened is happened and you can't do anything about it, even though it hurts to the depths of your soul, you know, it's still working your way back, which to me is going back to being, finding the ability to focus on what is at hand right now. And, and, and knowing that that happened, not, you don't forget it. You don't deny yourself the thought. You just discipline yourself to go to the next

moment and to, and to be captured in those moments and build those moments. And as you build it more and more and more, you can find your way out of the real pain that you've had to undergo. There's a lot of, well, that's an ancient thought. You've captured that in a really contemporary time with lots of people watching and observing through the vehicle of football, but the thought that people are suffering and they suffer because of the pain of what has happened in the past to them, and they can't quite let that go to be here now, or they're so anxious about what could go wrong in the future that that too is suffering. And if I hear this right, your suffering is when you can't quite,

you know that others are in pain and you can't quite find the right way to reach them, to help them. Yeah, that's it. Because I see them suffering and I don't want them to help them right and yeah that's it because because i see them suffering and i don't want them to i don't want them to you know i want them to move ahead and capture what you know what's available for them you had this thought last year maybe it was two years ago that i heard you say to a couple athletes that until they move until they grow from this experience you're also stuck right there was something along the lines with them. That's how connected that we are. I mean, even though I can manage my own life on a day-to-day basis, I'm going to be with them until they move through it.

And that's just part of being committed to the people, I think. That's really rich. Well, it's hard, but it is what it is. And so maybe that's why it pains me so much. I want to work them through it so I can move forward as well. And it's not that you want to move forward to get another win. It's to get to move forward to be able to capture the best. Yeah, just to get back to working again.

To be in the present. Get back to living. And to me, living is being right there. And there's a lot of people that we know, Mike, in New York. You know so much about this stuff that build their life around being in the present and living their life for the moment and doing that in great fashion and continuing to discipline themselves to be mindful for all of the right reasons and all. And I get it. And this isn't new. This is old stuff. This is as ancient as it goes. And, but it's, it's, it is a powerful aspect of living and one that, you know, we try to

learn from and grow from. Okay. So is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most? Well, you know, if it's mindful, you know, I mean, I don't know. You know, I mean, where do you go? I mean, I don't know. You know, I mean, where do you go? You know,

I don't know where else you can go. It's living in the moment, you know. You know, I don't talk about the zone and all that stuff. I know you're an expert at talking about that stuff.

I don't like talking about that. The phrase, the zone nauseates me a bit. Yeah, it's overused and all that. Yeah. But, which it is about being present

and, you know, but, you know, I don't know. I think, and, you know, but, you know, I don't know. I think, and you know, I want to, I do want to maximize the moments, you know, I want to find those little moments between the moments and maximize them whenever you can. Wait, wait, hold on.

Go, go further on that. I want to maximize the moments between the moments. Yeah. Cause there's always spaces between the spaces, you know, and, and, uh, I don't think we've ever had this conversation when I talk about the space between. You just said there's spaces between the spaces. Oh, yeah. That made sense to me a while back. And people would look at me and say, I look like I'm running off, my head cut off sometimes.

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So your leadership approach is relationship based. And then maybe you can share like what it feels like, the culture that you've created around here. And I mean, really particular, like you're bouncing around, you're buzzing in and out. You're not in your office, look with a door closed or open saying come in. It's an open it's just trying to be as involved and as available as possible. And so you can't sit on your butt and do that. There's too many people to reach out to and stuff.

And it's contagious. Hopefully, it's obvious when you're here. I think it is. We hear it all the time when people come visit us and watch us, whether they watch us practice or they just watch us going about the building. It's really fun to see new players come into our program and listen to their observations and reactions

to what goes on. I've got to keep that going. It's important to me. I think it is part of the heartbeat and it's why the music is always going. It's part of that thumping sense of, you know, that there's something going on here that's good and fun and rich and you want to be part of it. So how do you sustain the energy to do it? You're actually very easy.

And my wife says it's zeal. That's the word she threw on it a long time ago. I don't know what that means. I don't even know. But I do know where it comes from. I want to have a good time. I want to have fun. I want to enjoy.

And so I'm going to do the things that come to mind to do that and to keep that going. It's thrilling to hear the sounds coming out of the meeting rooms for the coaches when they're in the defensive staff and the offensive staff across the hall. They're almost competing with how much fun they're having, having a good time. And there's hard work being done and all, but I don't think it feels like that. And we've invested in these guys in a big way to help them feel free and to be free

to express themselves and look for the good things and to be connected in a way that allows us to find all of the best we have to offer. It is why, Mike, I think that we have the opportunity to share our ideas with other people, not just football, not just coaching. It's more than that. You can take it into the boardroom. You can take it into the corporate world. You can take it into the hospitals and schools and things, I think, where we can help enhance environments and help enhance really the production of individual people to elevate their overall output. Whatever they're doing. Whatever they're doing. And really, if we really get people to indulge in the kind of way that we think and we operate, I think we can see – you'll see production increase without changing or creating anything brand new. No new products.

They'll just function at a higher level. They'll come in earlier. They'll stay later. They'll be more on it. They'll inspire those around them. I mean all of those things, that's the subtle way of improving an organization. That's what we did here, and that's what we did at SC, and that's what we've been doing. So I think it can be in your family.

I think it can be in your business. I think it can be in your club, your groups, or your friendships. It can go anywhere. It's amazing to me how hard people work and how far people go to the ends of trying to figure out the space between the space in, in the tactics and strategy of football here in the building. At the same time, I'm amazed that they're not walking zombies. And my observation of that is because it feels really good because they are who they're meant to be in this moment. You've given the space and created the space and encourage them to be themselves. And so at the end of the day, they're not focusing on the drain that comes

from anxiousness or criticalness or depression. So there is less energy spent when you're having fun, you're laughing, you're rolling in the music, and you're focused on right here, right now. I don't think you have to make somebody feel bad or feel like they're not worthy or feel like they may not make it if they don't do this or that. I don't think that's the best way to motivate people. It's a really good way to motivate a whole lot of people. That's why the Army has done it. They shave your head, they put you in a uniform,

and they kick your butt for the next six weeks or something to make you become what they need you to become. That's not how you train special forces. You beat them up. You make them have to endure and all. But then you have to take them to great depths of creativity and production and performance well beyond just the bare minimum level so that you can count on somebody to do something right. And I think that's – we try to train really our players in that sense that these guys are, they're special forces guys. They got

to perform at a huge high level and they also have to be able to think for themselves and they have to create and function and flow with others. And they have to have that great depth of understanding to do that. So that's what we're after anyway. Okay. So you take shots, you take risks. How can you help people understand the risk-taking process to be better at taking a shot? How do you do that? Well, that's an interesting question, you know, because it, I think great performers really, they dwell in that moment, you know, the moment of risk and do they go for it? Do they not do it? Do I take the shot? They're looking for it. Yeah, they're looking for it because they've become comfortable with it and they trust

and they have confidence that they can function. That's a big part of it. They're not doubting that they're capable. They're believing that they are capable. And they know that give me the chance and I'll show you. That's why you see the great basketball players want the ball at the end and the guys want to bring me in late innings, I'll finish the game. Let me be the guy at bat in the bottom of the ninth, those kinds of things. Let me be at the free throw line and

whatever. I think those people have learned how to dwell in the moments based on experience, based on positive experience as well. But I do think that being able to take risks is what gives you the chance to do great things. And the functioning play after play after play, moment after moment is really – it's crucial. But still, those opportunities and those moments arise. How do you deal with that? By building and constructing a foundation of trust in yourself and in those around you. And so that you can, they aren't risks. You've minimized the risks. Now, when I try to help other people, like I'll help guys in our organization that have to

make calls or be the guys that are really the, you know, the who sayers. I'll give them guidelines. It's okay. If we're in this situation, it's okay to do this. If it doesn't work out, I'm fine with that. You know, and I try to instill in them a risk taking mentality when I think they need it. And by percentages and guidelines and statistics and stuff like that, that it, it, I, and I can get a result that I want. If I'm not making the call and they're making the call for me, I'm going to try to bolster their confidence to go for it and when they can and when they can. a result that I want. If I'm not making the call and they're making the call for me, I'm going to try to bolster their confidence to go for it. And when they can and when they can't.

And so that's, you know, a lot of that has to do with mathematics, you know, and stuff like that. We figure that out. Yeah, for sure. And that's how people get on the edge. Until they can learn to develop a gut sense. There you go. And it takes time. But I think you can train that.

Yeah. And by taking small risks. Small risks. And entering into that space between. And taking the pressure, the stress off of them, having to burden. I'm the one that made the call. If you called it on my team, I'm the one that ultimately takes responsibility for it. So go for it.

Go. I'm okay about it. I'm a pretty good risk taker. And so I'm trying to promote that in my people. And really, I want to promote it in Russell Wilson and all of our guys to feel okay about it. That comes out of discipline too. We totally know that. It's repetition and discipline and the creativity and the ability to improvise and innovate comes out of the discipline. And so that's hard work. And then it's proving that you're worthy. And then it's letting people go ahead and go. So just a couple of quick hits. What is it that you have

your heart set on? Like your eulogy, the thing that when you're done, that you hope the mark that you've left, what is your heart really set on? Well, I do hope that I will have impacted people in the sense that if you give to others and help them find their best, you're going to feel pretty good about yourself. And I'm dedicated to living my life for that, whether it's from my family to the people around us and the players. If I keep competing to give them everything I have to help them find their best, that's, you know, I don't care if I ever get recognized for it. I don't care if anybody ever writes it down. That's just the way I'm living it. And that makes me feel okay, regardless of what the outcome is, you know, or whatever, whatever the end comes, I'm going to feel pretty good if I can, you know, maintain that connection with that thought.

And then when you screw up, like we all screw up, I screw up all the time, and you've hurt somebody else, how do you work that relationship back? Do you have anything that you've learned that seems to be a guiding light? By getting to the truth first, always going to the truth of what happened. If you just blew it and something just went wrong, get to the truth of it. I think that's what sets you free. And then sharing that truth and being committed to demonstrating how much it really does matter to me that I failed you, that I let you down, and that I'll do everything in my power

to be on the other end of this at the next turn, at every turn that comes up, and that I'll do everything in my power to be on the other end of this at the next turn, at every turn that comes up. And that I'll be there standing for the right stuff at the end of it. I'll ask you on it and I'll prove it to you that even though that something went wrong, that we'll make it right and we'll fix it. It all comes down to? Well, I think it all comes down to love, Mike, to tell you the truth. I think it all comes down to all of what we do. If we really, really genuinely care, then we can find our best. And so I look at it really simply that that means that if I can find my way to loving the guys that are in this program,

loving the opportunity that we have and caring for it to protect the heck out of it with everything I got. I mean, I think that's the best I can give. And it's interesting that it really comes all of, when it's all said and done, it comes back to love. And if you can really connect with that, then I think you get your best chance to find your best. Where do you feel that in your body as you're talking about it? Oh, that's deep in my heart. That's deep. It's deep, right? Yeah. It's taken a long time to really understand it that way.

But it's really what I've been after for a long time. And it makes the most sense. You know, I love my children so much. I'll do anything to help them in every way. And I like extending that to my players and my coaches. I think it brings out the best that I have to offer. And so I just want to kick butt, you know. I just want to do good.

Okay. How do you finish this thought? I am. I'm a competitor, man. I can't get away from it. Sorry. I love it. Okay. Last question. Like in your words, how do you articulate or think about or define or get your arms around this concept of mastery? Well, I know I think it's about maximizing, Mike, and it's about trying to figure out how you can find your best. And that's why it's about competing. You know, the competing keeps me on task. It keeps me going for it and working to figure it out. And so it's just not being satisfied. You know, it goes back to really some of the stuff that we define grit.

To do that, you have to maintain tremendous passion. And you have to be driven to persevere. You have to be resilient. You have to be able to bounce back. And you have to be just doggedly driven to make it happen and succeed. That's how you define grit to me. And it comes back. That's the way to get it happen and succeed, you know. But that's how you define grit to me. And it comes back. That's the way to get it done.

Beautiful. Pete, it's been a joy to know you. It's been a joy to grow alongside you. I ain't going away, bro. Don't say it like I'm dead here or something. No, no. I'm talking about right now in this conversation. Yeah.

It's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, we've had a blast, Mike. I respect so much what you do and how you do your work and all. And it's a thrill doing it together. Appreciate it. It really is. So do you want people to maybe engage on social for you? Like there's going to be questions that people are going to want to ask or how

should we do that? Yeah. I'd love for them to come, come find us and we'll answer what we can. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. So I'll put that in some show notes and get that rolling.

And those are those who are listening to this conversation. You can find us on finding mastery.net and you can also find us on iTunes. And the Twitter is at Michael Gervais. Thanks, Pete. All right. Let's go. Let's go compete. Let's let it rip. All right.

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