Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Peter Shapiro: The Most Influential Concert Promoter of His Generation

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Peter Shapiro, a music industry legend and perhaps the most influential independent concert promoter of his generation. Over his eclectic career, Peter has produced several acclaimed and groundbreaking projects, and was listed on Billboard’s Power 100 List for “Most Influential People in the Music Business”.Peter is the owner of several legendary music venues around the country which have hosted some of the biggest names in modern music – The Rolling Stones, The Grateful Dead, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Leonard Cohen, Snoop Dogg, David Bowie, U2, The Roots, and so many more. In total, Peter has played a major role in putting on over 10,000 shows and concerts in his lifetime.Over his eclectic career, Peter has also produced several acclaimed and groundbreaking projects, including two documentary films on The Grateful Dead, an IMAX behind-the-scenes concert film featuring artists like Santana, Dave Matthews, Sting, & Sheryl Crow, and the first ever live-action concert film released in digital 3D following performances from U2.Most recently, Peter published his first book, The Music Never Stops, which chronicles insights, stories, and back-stage anecdotes from 50 of his most influential concerts.But this conversation is not just about music – it’s about insights from a pioneer who paved the way in his industry through grit, resourcefulness, and utilizing the power of relationships. I can’t wait for you to learn from Peter and hear his incredible stories._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And it powers me again to want more. And it's beyond money or getting a massage, getting money and a nice car or a massage. I've done more and been successful because I didn't make a lot of money. Okay, welcome back. I love this podcast. I love that we're in it together and if you're new here welcome to the finding mastery podcast i am michael gervais your host by trade and training a sport and performance psychologist and the whole idea here is to pull back the curtain

to understand how some of the most extraordinary thinkers and doers across the planet are able to work from the inside out. How do they train their mind? What are the principles that they use? What are their best practices? How do they understand at the same time that they're building their craft to train their mind towards the ability to express their potential? Now, this week's conversation is with Peter Shapiro. He's a music industry legend and perhaps the most influential independent concert promoter of his generation.

Peter has had an amazing career. He's produced several acclaimed and groundbreaking projects, and he was listed on Billboard's Power 100 list for the most influential people in the music business. He's also the owner of several legendary music venues, and he's hosted some of the biggest names in modern music there. The Rolling Stones, The Grateful Dead, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Leonard Cohen, Snoop Dogg, David Bowie, U2, The Roots, so many more. And in total, Peter has played a major role in putting on over 10,000 shows. 10,000 shows. That's an amazing amount of concerts to not only attend, but to also coordinate and put together.

So most recently, he published his first book, The Music Never Stops. And in that book, he chronicles insights and stories and backstage anecdotes from 50 of his most influential concerts. But this conversation is not, of course, it's not just about music. It's about insights from a pioneer who paved the way in an industry and he used grit and resourcefulness and you can hear it in the way he talks. Like the honesty that he shares and works from. He's earned these insights. You know, there's no joke.

Promoters are high risk. You know, their ability to see something, bet on it, take a risk. They put their money where their mouth is. It's awesome how he works. And his superpower is definitely relationships. And you've heard me say over and over again, it's through relationships that we become through our relationship with ourself, with others, with the planet, with experiences in general, with technology.

It's through our relationships that we become. And I can't wait for you to learn from Peter. And I hope you enjoy his incredible stories. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Peter Shapiro. Peter, how are you? Hey, Michael. Good to be here, brother. Oh, I, you know, I'm, I'm stoked to connect with you. I didn't know of you and your work because I'm just not kind of tier zero and like in the inner circle of your world.

And when you came across my desk of what you're doing, I was like, holy, like, like, really, you've done all this. And so I punched over to one of my friends. And he's like, Oh, yeah, he's a real deal. And so I'm so stoked to sit with you and learn with you. And I wanted to start with this. So this is like, it's an epic endorsement of your book. The legend Bill Walton says, Peter is a brilliant architect of communities, culture, and dreams. And I thought, wow, that's a really cool way to start this conversation. So especially Bill Walton, I still can't believe that Bill Walton. Yeah. So i'm imagining that you guys overlapped around the grateful dead knowing yeah you know well okay so so can you just start yeah yeah can you start from that yeah yeah he's

he actually like connects a lot of the themes uh from the words of robert hunter and uh john perry barlow lyricist the grateful dead, some of these two like being a champion and being on the road, the journey of a sports team seeking greatness and an athlete and a performer seeking excellence. And I actually am involved in a big voter registration organization, Headcount. We had a call with Bill

and Bill started connecting voting, you know, with the music of the Grateful Dead. He can connect anything to it. And when you see him, he's seven feet tall. He's at the concert. He's down on the GA, you know, in front of the soundboard with everyone else. Everyone else is about an average of about five, nine, right? Some people are five, four, some some six feet but then there's bill walton right in the middle and he puts his hands in the air and he's got this massive wingspan so he goes to about seven feet six inches and he looks like you know uh a pole a lightning pole a light pole and it's unbelievable and he looks john mayer once said to me who plays

dead and go he looks out from the stage into the audience and he sees bill walton just towering there's thousands of people but all you see is bill walton he just towers over everyone there's no other basketball players nba players at a grateful dead show but bill walton's there and he comes all the time. It's awesome. He's a legend. And for him to, and he understands, you know, like he was a student to one of the greats, one of the great coaches of all time.

And so he understands what it means to not only perform consistently, but to be a student of excellence. And so John Wooden is the coach I'm referring to. Yeah, UCLA. Bill Walton's a champion. By the way, here's an interesting thing, and I don't have it offhand. Bill Walton has had something like 20 to 30 back surgeries, not two or three or five or 10. And if someone listening, you know, they can, you can look it up. I'm talking 30 back surgeries for a couple of years. He told me he was in bed and could not get up because I, you know, you're seven feet tall, you're lumbering back and forth in practice and games and tough on the body. He couldn't move for a couple of years without immense pain. He credits

his recovery, A, obviously medical surgery, but really the power of the mind. And he is really, yeah, he's someone maybe you should have on because his use of, in control of his mind he credits to overcoming debilitating back pain and now he walks around he's at these shows he says he has no pain so it's pretty interesting just to show the power i i swear he credits not the surgeries which i'm sure, but rather mind control to overcome the pain. You know, you, the relationships you have with people is remarkable in your book. Like you talk about just the number, like the vast number of people that have, that you have relationships with. And I think your inner circle is tight. I think you mentioned that, but the, the connectivity

that, you know, you as a hub, your places that you, you know, um, your venues that you own and, and like, there's a hub there about relationships. So can you take a minute before I do want to ask you about what it means to be an architect of dreams, but let's start with the architect of communities. Like how, how do you think about relationships? Well, you started off and said I've been able to pull off a lot. Everything that I've done, any one of the venues or a film or I have a music magazine, I have a music festival, I have kids shows. Anything I do, everything is a partnership.

I come to it and I know from experience you can't do it alone you can't do anything so for me all these things are collaborations I love owning a music venue because it puts me in the middle like you're saying instantly of a scene of a hub of people and you collect you get to collaborate with different people every day these venues are mostly seven days a week you know they're not one or two shows i'm not a big concert promoter of like doing an arena show twice a month you know or stadium i own the venue and these venues are especially wetlands where started. I took over in 97, 49, turning 50 in a week or two. I started at 23 with my first venue, Wetlands, 1996. That was the largest live music venue in New York.

It was seven nights a week. When you're seven nights doing rock and roll, every morning that you wake up, Michael, after the show from last night, you go, you do it again. And then you go do it again. You can't get off the bike, right? You want to pause. It goes. So the only way to keep going is to get on the phone, right? And you're collaborating, you're getting, you're booking new shows with an agent and a manager and the band. You're there at the end of the night with the band. They become your friend. i was a great club owner early i had no family i was there at the end of the show band comes off stage 1 a.m peak shapiro was there with a tray of tequila shots like congrats you know harder for me probably today i was a great club owner partly

because i was young and i was good because i was there at the end. Those musicians became my friends, you know? And you say 130, but it's more like four. Oh yeah, I have four. At the wetlands. Average, yeah. Well, in a lot of the shows are three, four. And you know what? I made sure there's a thing I, when writing a book,

I came up with, you know, cause I spend so much time. One, it's so simple. You can't see it if you're not there. writing a book I came up with, you know, because I spend so much time. One, it's so simple. You can't see it if you're not there. You can't be there if you're not there. I swear. That's it. Band, if I have friends who are playing, and I'll be right, they play two sets, they go on at 10, 30, 11 at Wetlands. They play it on 2, 33 a.m. If I can't do the tequila shots with them when they've come off stage, if I'm not standing there. So you've got to be there.

So you've got to be there. So is this your tradition? It's a tequila shots post. Is that something that you created or is that something that is – Yeah, now we've moved it a little more before the show sometimes. Here's a good one. I'll give out some tricks, at least my tricks, to people who want to do this maybe one day and they're listening. If you can't be there, a great thing to send to the band backstage before they go on, right before they go on, you have your production manager bring out a tray of tequila shots and say, these are from Peter and even better is I'll sometimes FaceTime in if I have to be now I've got

venue in Vegas or Nashville or Philly if I can't be there or somewhere I'm I'll FaceTime in holding a shot wherever I am or a glass or whatever and and occasionally we'll they will be will coordinate it so their side stage the band my guy, I FaceTime the production manager who shows them the phone and I'm there. And so that's a way to connect. You know, you cannot underestimate, I think the power of like you're talking about, you know, being there, connecting, putting these shows on together. You know, if you can do it that way, that's the best way. So I spent a lot of

years flying around red eyes this that and doing the tequila shot move yeah that works before the show works it's separate and it also works great after the show and i'll tell my guys feel out the band by the way don't bring the tequila shots and by the way you always have to have something for someone who doesn't drink the soda water like so we thought but if they're if the mood's somewhat off or sound check you know you don't bring it out before the show unless it's you know my guys know you know then maybe wait to the after the show and by the way if the show didn't do really well and it's a light crowd you know i don't think maybe you don't do the tequila shots at all one trick i've learned is i don't love going to shows that didn't do well of mine. Like it feels awkward for me. Hey, what's up?

This sucked, you know, but, but when it's good, you know, you, you try to add elements like giving the band a tequila shot to make it great. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals,

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Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So this is super simple, which is like, what's, you know, what is your tequila, your go-to tequila? And I don't want to be too surfacy, but that's kind of fun for me. I mean, for a lot of years it was Patron Silver. And now I just like a good old do a Casamigo Silver. You know, everyone likes that.

But for years and years, just Patron Silver. Let's go. But but it's silver it's not gold when you're when it's chill and but i'll do anything you know we'll take we don't need to go you know a lot of people like the 1942 that's a different thing that will get a manager of a major band will say i got a few of those like i want a bottle of 1942 so uh but but tequila is great. And it's a good, I have a couple things like that. Christmas lights. Here's a good one. I swear, my first club, Wetlands, we had Christmas lights, 1996, holidays, up behind the bar. They give off a glow.

A lot of color. I swear, this is true. A lot of color and positive radiation. We bring them down in early January. They pull them off. I walk into wetlands like, whoa, what's the holy cow? The energy in this place went from colors and fun. And I want to be here and stay here to it's darker.

And it's a little more depressed. It's darker. And we got to put those christmas lights back up so we put them back up and they and i've had them in every venue since now you know how much christmas that you can get those christmas lights anyone listening for 50 bucks at target or 100 bucks i swear all the Brooklyn bowls, my cabin, we, I do Christmas lights, my Capitol theater all the time, all year round I've had, and they cost nothing basically. So it's just, that's an example of, you know, always need, sometimes you need money, you know, sound system, you can't get from 50 bucks at Target, but Christmas lights,

maybe it's a hundred bucks for the pull bar you know they simple things like that can give a lot of powerful little bit i don't know if you get radiation off of it makes a big difference i think yeah ambience and i think it takes me to back to relationships which to oversimplify there's like transactional relationships. And then there's ones that, you know, are more sensitive to the quality of the relationship, you know? And so where, where do you fall on relationships? Are they more transactional? Well, yeah, for me, they're both right. I have these relationships with my friends where I have to talk to them and make deals.

A lot of them are on the phone, handshakes. And just yesterday, I called a musician directly. You know, most people who do what I do have to go through the agent. You know, you're not even supposed to call the manager or the band. They have an agent. And a lot, most of my venues, we go through the agent. I know the agents, know the managers. But now, right, I been in friends with these guys since doing tequila shots when they walked off stage in 1997 in wetlands so the guy called yesterday i've

known that long and and others and and i feel like they see me a bit as a peer so we can be collaborative in a concept and but sometimes we'll talk money, you know, and it's transactional. But we have that overlay of collaboration and history and friendship. So my world is one world in terms of business, friendship, social, professional, social life, professional life, personal life, professional life. For me, it's a blended gray thing. You know, it all relates. Because it's so overlapping. How do, if you could, how do people think about you when they describe you? Do they say, oh, Pete, God, he's a great business person. Pete's a risk taker. Pete's just a good dude. Pete gets it. Pete's a nut job, you know, like good dude Pete gets it Pete's a nut job you know like but you want to be out of spots like what how how did I mean I don't want to describe yeah you'd

have to you know I can't I can't I can't ask you you know right well yeah I know I know I like you know that I I'm able to I think I'm thought of as someone who's creative and has a business mind. And that's a great compliment. There are not many people, I think, who can do that. And I'm able to do it, Michael, because I've been doing it partially so long. You know, there's the whole Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours thing. Through deciding to do the book and sitting down and thinking about it, we realized I've done 10,000 shows. I wasn't at every show, but I was responsible for 10,000 different shows, not bands,

shows, where if something goes wrong at four in the morning, I'm getting a call. Because even when you're not there, when you're responsible, it takes something. You can hear in my voice, some of those shows, that Those reps doing that, I have the ability to be a good creative collaborator. I have a feeling for how to do a good show. I knew those Christmas lights. The venue is better off with that glow. When I did the Dead 50 at Soldier Field, one of the biggest concerts ever, 78,000 people, full Soldier Field 360. We thought of an issue that's a problem issue, security. I mean, not a problem, but, you know, it's not a fun thing, like security for the Grateful Dead's 50th anniversary and the fans and maybe they're smoking something.

And like, you don't want that to go in the wrong direction. There's an once one person gets arrest stopped arrested someone could yell back and we wanted to get ahead of that right you need to get ahead of the issues so what i came up with from you know sitting there late at night and running netflix in my brain you know instead of watching netflix i i i sit there and look at the ceiling thinking about how do we fix this issue? We got all the security guys at this stadium to wear tie-dyed shirts. They still had the official security number on the shirt. And let me, that had like the Christmas lights, material impact, I believe,

on the vibe and the energy in a stadium where instead of big black shirts, you know, it said security all over them, all the security personnel at this giant stadium concert were wearing tie tie shirt. And I think that had an impact on how the security acted, how the fans responded to them. And we no issues and and i got it i went and met with the mayor of chicago to say let's play zone defense this weekend and not lean it you know because you know and that's what i do is try to think through how can we maintain you know the

best possible vibes that's my netflix is like instead of sitting there you know, the best possible vibes. That's my Netflix is like, instead of sitting there, you know, is, is, is always, cause if I'm not thinking it through and getting ahead of it, it's going to go offline. It's going to go the wrong way, I believe. So you have a community, um, you value creating experiences for people and evidenced by the small detail that we're talking about is lighting, but there's an experience in there. And it feels like your life has been designed around helping other people's dreams come true. And before I make that assumption, is that accurate? Or is like, is it your dream that you're creating? And it just happens to be that other people's dreams, you know, are, are also part of it. Or is it what I said first, which is like, no, listen, I love creating moments where

people's dreams come true. The good, I mean, well said, I I'd like to think it's a little, it's both, you know, my dream is in alignment with a lot of these musicians and the fans. I'm a fan, you know, I get tired a lot of these musicians and the fans. I'm a fan. You know, I get tired of putting on the show at the daytime. And by the way, all the details matter. When you're putting on a big show, how it goes on sale, when you get to the venue, going into the venue, the security experience, the box office experience, the bar experience,

the bathroom, the sound, the lights, the floor, you know, everything matters, right? If one of those pieces goes off, it'll impact the rest of the rope. If you lose any piece of the rope, it breaks. Your experience of that show can be anyone listening knows, like you waited too long at the box office. If the bar line's way too long, if the air's off, if the sound's annoying, your whole experience can be off, right feng shui is all you know so i am a fan and i look to make it all those things be right for them and for me because if it's off it bothers me i want to be at the show i need that magical feeling to power me into the next day and want to do it again you know because you don't really do what I do putting on shows just to make money.

You should pick, you know, something else. You just go on a bar with a cash register and sell drinks because I wouldn't hire the sound guy, the booking guy, the lighting guy, the production guy, you know, putting on live shows, you know, there's a reason why there's only one or two companies, big companies do it. Live Nation and AG, it's not a good business. When you put on a concert, oh yeah, the artist takes, when you win putting on live music, you make two. And when you lose, you lose 12. I mean, that's the game, you know, the band, when you lose, you can lose a lot. And when you win,

you make a little. It's true. So you can maybe do it on scale, right? That's how Live Nation doing lots of shows and stadiums. And the other tricky thing is, if you're doing a 600 person club, you still need the lighting guy, the sound guy. You need a booking guy. You need a head of the box office.

You need a stage manager. You need the night manager. I can go through the list. At 3,000 people, five times the size of the tickets, stage manager you need the night manager you know i can go through the list at 3 000 people five times the size of the tickets you you know you're not needing five times the people so the irony in this is when you're smaller and you're a smaller club the economics are even harder and and maybe that's the truth of business in a lot of ways in america you know in the world capital so it gets easier when you're bigger which then favors the bigger guys you know so it's a

it's a tricky game you got to be in it because you love it are you a when you think about your profession are you an entrepreneur or are you a promoter are you a community builder like how do you how do you think about your quote-unquote job i don't i just do it other people have been called all those things but i stay focused you know the netflix in my mind is about how to handle security you know or how to get which guest are we going to have with this band? Or I got to make sure this person's on the guest list. Remember, we said all the details matter. If all the details matter, this doesn't get easy ever. Never.

Even now, I've done lots of stuff. I got a book. I'm still dealing before I got on the podcast with little details for my Burning Spears show tomorrow in Central Park. Because it's all got to, when this person shows up at the door the door i gotta make sure their name's down and this and that you know so it gets easier maybe because i've done it 10 000 times but it never gets easy because you know if you if you want to do it well because if you're doing it well you're doing all the details and all really doing the details and if you're doing all the details you don't have time to think about what you call yourself you know you gotta be focused on doing it i spent a lot of time thinking about doing it that's how i did the dead fifth you know i'm a deadhead kid

and i made a film about them in college i couldn't get any of the guys in the band to be in my film to do an interview and then 25 years later i did their 50th anniversary reunion. I put them back together. And if I sat there at night thinking about it, yo, bro, I'm reuniting the Grateful Dead. I know that the minute I walk outside, I get struck by light. So I'm sitting there at home, not thinking about, yo, what this means and what to call it. I'm thinking about, we should get the security guys to wear Tidex shirts, you know, or the Christmas lights. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team,

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And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to Felixixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. One of your quotes, I think it's a remarkable insight. It seems so simple because it's exactly how you've described what you're doing now, but it's probably how you've done your life for most of your life is if you're going to be really good at anything, this is your quote, I think you need to approach it all as one life and be a little obsessive. And I can't nod my head more to that. And it begs the question, how is your home life? Well, my wife helps me. I bring her on for these big projects.

She helped me get me on the show with you. She's a music publicist. That helps, you know, so we can talk about it. When I did Dead 50, she did the PR, you know. My kids are not music kids. They're normal kids, you know. They like soccer and TikTok and friends and video games, but they're not coming to concerts, nor am I dragging them along. And, you know, this phone that goes both ways in that the pro of the phone obviously it's around all the time my thing never stops i don't even think the human was made to be received texts and emails all the

time i told ron delsner yeah i told delsner is the greatest living concert promoter, Ron Delsner. Like he started, I was like, Ronnie in 69, 79, 1989, 99, 09. You, you, if someone wanted to get on the guest list for one of his shows day up, they called his office and he'd be like, sorry, Michael, I didn't get your message the next day sorry bro with this tech stuff i'll be at the venue and i'll get texts from people they know i've seen me like hey pete i'm outside or i'm at the bar can i get a vip so i can't escape that

you know in the old days the phone call i would have been like i didn't get your call you know even email you can escape but i didn't see it it passed by text you cannot we all know it's hard to escape that so that's hard now the good news is i can be with my family you know on a week and go away with them or take a vacation with them or be with one of my kids. You know, we're in August. I'm going to go to Michigan next week. You know, with my son who's 12 and I'll be with him, but I will have the phone with me, you know, and I can put it down for a little while, but I can't, you cannot be good at what I do and put it down for all day and be like, you know what? I'm taking 24 hours. I've never put a bounce back email.

Some of the kids that work for me have the bounce email. Hey, I'm out 24 hours. I've never put a bounce back email. Some of the kids that work for me have the bounce email. Hey, I'm out of town. I've never done a bounce back email. I'm out ever. Ever. I'm not, you know, you never know who's going to email you. Let's be honest. I was just, you could be in Singapore.

I was just there. You can bounce back. So that like, that's the pro and con. Like I'm in Singapore. So I can't complain too much with my wife but i'm also bouncing back you know i love that facetime audio anyone now anyone can be in singapore and talk and catch up with their own you do facetime audio cost zero it costs zero and so i can do the remote thing but i also cannot escape my life until one day

i sign off you know i just i don't know i don't know what my future holds that way you know um what i'm gonna do and by the way i don't plan it sometimes people say what's your big plan you know now i've got these venues all over the country i didn't plan that really from the beginning like i'm gonna go have the big menu in vegas and nashville it's much more just one day at a time opportunities come ideas come try to follow your gut instinct and then i have leaned in when i've been at the fork in the road, you know, take over a music magazine in 2009 when the world's falling apart. My gut was lean into taking over Relics. When Wetlands, I had the opportunity

to take over this amazing legendary rock club. 1996, I'm 23 years old. I know nothing about running a venue, but I knew this place was incredibly special. Once in a lifetime, I leaned into it. You know, a couple of big Forks in the Road I've leaned into doing. I leaned into it. You know, a couple of big forks in the road I've leaned into doing. I've done, you know, I always try to work with,

collaborate, and I'm still going. So you are a risk taker. And one of the things that I've enjoyed in your readings is that you're honest. And the honesty even that you're sharing right now requires a level of risk. And so I'm wondering if you could just go wait right back to the origins of your first club that you bought there. But there's something that I couldn't make sense in the book. And I feel like I missed a step

where you came in and you're eager, you wanted to get involved and you didn't expect that you're going to get ownership or much of it, so to speak. And then the owner wouldn't give you kind of access to the books. And then at some point I missed the step in how you became an owner. And so how did you become, okay. Yeah. How did you become full ownership? Yeah. Well, first of all all he would not show the books so now today if i was sitting here with now with all my experience you know i'd

probably tell him to go f off you know i i need to see the books something that but I was naive naively brilliant that this is how I got wet with hands at 23 years old I said you know what when you have a new business there's no books you have projections and I said to my father who was a lawyer but I have no music in my family you know my dad's a tax lawyer was a tax lawyer I was like well you know when you do a new business you're doing projections at least here i know what the garbage is i know what the water cost is i know what you share the payroll the garbage the water the electric bill but he felt this is this legendary rock club i want someone who's gonna buy i don't want the bigger companies who honestly wants a bigger company here's there's no, they say goodbye. And he wants the right person who believes in it. And I think it's world, it's wetlands, you know, it's world famous. I know the rent too,

20 grand a month, you know, the garbage. I'm like, I have a, I already know a lot of the projections, they're actuals. And because i leaned into that and said you know okay no books okay give me the individual expenses and i leaned in that's how i got it and there's really a crazy story that originally because i was so young i was going to be partners with others and in the end larry came and said we're going to do a benevolent dictatorship it's just going to be Peter. By the way, I didn't have the money, so I paid him over time. He gave it to me.

I agreed to continue an environmental center. This club was pre-internet. This is 96. There was no meetup.org. There were no podcasts. So Rainforest Action Network, Amnesty Internationalesty international the idea was where do they get young people who usually get involved in activism as young people where do you get them to meet the library the school or the rock club so he used the rock club for meetings before the shows pretty you

know analogically brilliant i agreed to continue that and uh spend spend 100 grand a year on two to three environmental activists. And in exchange for committing to continue that mission, and we put flyers and information all over the club, he gave it to me and I paid him on a monthly thing. Originally, I was going to have partners. This is an amazing story. to ingratiate himself into the good graces of this staff of 50 and the environmental center volunteers, hired one of the environmental center activists, interns, worker, intern, to clean his house and he would pay him. It's a true story.

The kids cleaning this guy's house, on the desk sees a letter that the guy writes to his girlfriend saying i'm taking over this club weapons because i've agreed to continue the environmental center and funded the guys basically giving it to us once i get control of it i'm getting rid of that bullshit the kid reads this takes the letter there. There was no camera phone then. So he runs down, goes to King Codes. Xerox is the letter. Never really told the story out loud.

Takes the Xerox, brings it back, puts the original on the table. Goes and meets Larry Block, who was the owner of Wetlands then. Gives him the Xerox of the letter that says, I'm just bullshitting this guy that i'm going to do the environmental center but i'm really going to knock off this hundred grand a year once i get and larry read the letter and that's when he said peter you're not partners with that guy anymore you're doing this alone this is well and it's going to be yours oh my god this kid is that's a true story buddy that's the truth that happened i'm

peter imagine this i hope everyone could follow that no that's so good but i just like imagine that kid's heartbeat like i gotta do something you know his heart was pounding as he's like running down the stairs to find kinkos to get it back in time to you know like that's rad that is my life is different i'll give you one more kinko story just in rock and roll first of all i i think without that story i'm probably not here on the podcast with you because he the other guy was going to be more the controlling guy it changed my life i once did an award show the jammies in 2001 or two we because we did a couple times we did it at roseland ballroom 3 000 person amazing venue longer here i needed so many passes backstage passes for all i it was like a jammies jam session

and i had you know buddy guy with phil lesh and you know peter frampton with the band Guster, all these different collaborations. So many guests that I needed 600 passes. And the venue Roseland said, here's 200 passes. You could have no more passes, Peter. And I'm like, I need 600. My event, I'm renting it. My event. I'm like, I need 600. They say, you have 200.

I need the passes. You know, I have 20, 30 different acts. They've all got managers and agents and friends. They say, no. I said, okay. I went. Luckily, you know, hopefully Statue of Limitations is up here for the concert. I got the intern to go to King Cove.

I got and I faked Lammy's to my own event. And it was all going well. I made 400 new ones. We had the intern do it. And so plausible deniability. And check this out, Mike. We're settling the end of a concert. It's called settlement, right?

You go into back, you get the receipts from the ticket sales. You pay for the cost of the stage labor, et cetera. We're settling the show backstage roseland and the woman who was like you can only have 200 passes sees my past starting to peel and she says wait a minute what's going on with your parents is that let me see that and i you know so that's the kind of stuff you need to do in rock and roll, bro. You know, you gotta, you know, sometimes you need to fake a pass to your own show. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've

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You're confronted. This is the magic of how these things work. Do you look at her and grin? You know, like, yeah, you know, like, or is it like no no no no no this is a good one like how do you how do you navigate that moment where you know that she's on to it right that separates the good from the great that 100 now that by the way you drove that what do you i did probably a combination of those things some stuttered no what do you this is good and do a gentle swirl twirl and walk out of the room you know before she you know but being able to get out of that room without getting in real trouble separates the good from the great you know so by the way if i hadn't done these 600 passes if I hadn't gotten the kid to go to Kinko's,

I would have been more, it wouldn't have worked. What are we going to tell certain acts who are playing this gig? We don't have a pass for your manager, your brother, all that, that's not a possibility. So that's what putting, what I do, putting on concerts is a lot about. A lot of it is managing the problems. And that's what I mean. Problems never go, you know, issues.

If the weather changes the wrong way, weather's, you know, if lightning comes or rain, you know, you have to adjust. You may have to evacuate and bring everyone back. You know, there's just a lot of issues that are on the fly that technology doesn't solve. Okay. Do I have this?

So we're still kind of in this risk-taking, the art of risk-taking. But do I have this right, this is a two-parter, that you front the band or the artist the money, and then it's your job to be able to fill the house, to make the bar tab work, and then you take the net benefit or the net profit from that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay. So that's why you don't.

But they get a guarantee. Most of the bigger bands for sure are all guaranteed. Some of the smaller bands, you might do a split on the door. But bigger bands, you guarantee money and then I sell the tickets. And then they get more if you sell a lot yeah so you want to incentivize them to spread the word so at certain capacity they get a bonus let's say yeah and they now have all socials and we have social so in some ways technology when i started this back to wetlands or even the early brooklyn bowl there was no um tiktok snap you

know instagram i mean at wetlands very early and i'll give you an interesting one here's a cool one and certainly if i wanted to pop a big show tomorrow it's much easier with technology and all the platforms for me to announce i'm doing gunss N' Roses. We did that once. You know, today, you know, in two days, we're going to go on sale tomorrow. Today's Tuesday. So we go, let's say we go on sale. We announce it on Instagram and Facebook and our website, Twitter, Guns N' Roses, Brooklyn Ball, Thursday. And it's Tuesday, two days. We're going to go on sale tomorrow at noon. And then the next, and that's easy now. In the old days,

there was no pushing it out on socials we had to call the radio station and get q104 or whoever in new york or wplj to like announce it on the radio we had to make flyers and cards and go to shows and hand them out we couldn't turn around a show as fast as i can now. So that's the good part of technology. Here's an interesting one. Back in the 90s at Wetlands, we had the Village Voice. It's no longer really around. The great print weekly of what's going on in New York.

Every city had one. Some still do, but a lot don't. The Village Voice, well, they're a lot thinner now. In the old days, in the 90s, LA Weekly, Village Voice, the Weekly Reader in Chicago, they all had 20 pages of music ads. Remember that 15 pages in the middle? Every venue, the Roselands, the Wetlands, the Tramps, CBGBs, they had a quarter, half page, full page of all the acts that are coming up and then the arena would have a full page ad that said you know roger waters and you could tuesday night the village boys came out everyone would get it open it up spend 15 it was fun 15 20 minutes analog newspaper going through the ads of the music listings, the music ads. After you read that, you knew who was coming to New York, who was coming to play at Roseland, Tramps, Wetlands, CBGBs, Irving Plaza, The Garden. You knew them all. Today, 2022, technology is way beyond. I'm on email lists. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. By the

way, I'm not. I'm personally on social media a lot. That's another story. I don't have accounts, but you go lurk. You're on email lists. You can know individual venues better, like if Guns and Roses is going to come to Brooklyn Ball, but you do not know nearly as well as you knew 20 years ago, more 25 years ago, who was going to be playing in New York in a month at all the different venues. You knew better a month ago, 25 years ago, you knew it. But now we no longer have that print version of the Village Voice. We have lots of accounts on social.

Yeah, it's decentralized now, right? Isn't that interesting? You do not yeah yeah that's a good take i mean so when you think about that you could in many respects the world was smaller in that way that you could maintain a central hub for who and when and where you know that they're playing and so you could you could have your pulse you know you could palpate the uh the pulse of the the industry or like how well you were doing or not doing. And then how do you palpate now?

Where do you take the pulse of the health or the vibrancy of your business? Well, ticket sales. At the end of the day, it's still like selling tickets. And listen, I created this brooklyn bowl thing we did you know it's clearly from people who had a normal rock club like well ends when you if you had a night that was not selling you just died you know it was dead no one could and once the venue's dead early you never really later that night it's going to be rock it's just dead and when you just had a traditional rock club with a band and a stage and a

bar, you're just dead, you know? So the Brooklyn bowl thing with the bowling and the food and the music, you know, we have less dead nights. Because we can create a baseline easier with the bowling kind of thing, you know? And it's actually been a mitzvah, I think for bands who don't sell well we'll have nights where we have like a party on the lanes or a hundred people who otherwise wouldn't be there so on a weeknight you know there are bands that would have tanked

but we can protect them you know the other cool thing about it was somewhat unintended i didn't realize it would be and my partner charlie i don't think, thought, we didn't think all this throughout. But because we have all these different revenue lines, bowling, food, obviously the drinks is key, the tickets, we can pay a band equal to what they make at a traditional venue called urban plaza where it's just the bar and the tickets so for a band to make 10 grand they get 10 grand at brooklyn bowl or urban plaza at urban plaza the tickets have to be 35 bucks 30 bucks at brooklyn bowl we could do it at 15 because we had the food revenue and the bowling revenue also. And once it's 15, you get walk-up, especially where we are, which on a Saturday,

anyone will walk up at Pro Combo, 15 bucks, done, 15 bucks, done. So we do 400 walk-ups. At Irving Plaza at 30 bucks, the same act to get 10 grand, right? 30 bucks, no one walks up and pays. No one walks up to a venue. 30 bucks, done.

You know, maybe at a super dance club and a visa or something, you know, but a live music thing and you don't know the band. So now we're managing this band. We're going to get 10 grand playing New York, either at Irving Plaza, traditional venue, or at this Brooklyn Bowl thing. We're going to sell 400 tickets in advance at each place, pretty much,, or at this Brooklyn Bowl thing. We are going to sell 400

tickets in advance at each place, pretty much, maybe more at 15 at Brooklyn Bowl, but the Brooklyn Bowl will do 400 walk-ups on a week. So we'll total 800 people. At Irving, you're not doing any walk-ups. You just have the 400 advanced tickets. The walk-up people have never seen the band probably before. They're just walking up i want to go hang out it's a lower ticket price i can do because i've got all the other money coming from the bowling the food and now i have 400 more people so i have 815 bucks 12 grand no problem and we're the manager what you want is new people to see your band so when you played broken ball what happened michael was we were getting 400 people

seeing a band for the first time so the managers in the band were like wow this is awesome when it's 30 bucks at irving plaza and you get no walk-up of those 400 people that bought advanced tickets most of them no one you know almost all of them have seen them before. You know, there's very, so that there's an exponential growth. No, there's an exponential growth. There's a flywheel, but there's also diversified risk and diversified income streams. So that, that's, that sounds like a, a modern business that is going to take some of the risk off the table through diversification, but also create a flywheel. Like, hey, we're going to expose you to new and different.

Come here. Don't go over there. It's called a soft ticket. It's like when bands play festivals. Sorry, soft ticket is there's 30 bands. We're one of 30. A hard ticket is there's one band, Irving Plaza, 30 bucks. That's a hard ticket.

We want to play soft ticket bands. We were a hard ticket real venue, Broken Bowl, that was like a soft ticket. You nailed it. And that's why Broken Bowl is in Philly and in Nashville and in Vegas. And we're going to do it. And listen, we didn't think it through that deeply.

But that's kind of what happened. And we were able to charge less at the door. And by charging less, we got walk-up. I'll give you another one. We gave the bands 100% of the merch. Most venues, Urban Plaza is 80-20. So now you're the band plus the food.

And I don't know how many people, but Brooklyn Blue Ribbon is pretty well known. We have this great food. So you're playing. Do you want to play where you get 100% of the merch? You get the Blue Ribbon fried chicken instead of a sandwich plate instead of 80 20 on the merch uh 15 ticket for your fan instead of 30 and that's kind of what happened um and i was speaking to uh somebody who sells out stadiums and they were, of course the, the, the guarantee is cool. Right. But they're like the merch kills it. You know, you've got a hundred thousand amphitheater of people, a hundred thousand person amphitheater, and they're like, it crushes it. So that, yeah.

So you, you pull as many levers as you can. And it sounds like you're definitely artists first band first. Yeah, you have to. Yeah. That's why they're my friends, you know, and, and that's where I lead with, you know, you don't do this to me. Listen, I want to make the bands more money. I mean, I want to do well too. If the bands make more, we'll get to do more shows. We'll do two nights and then three nights and then they'll go to the next bigger venue i have and um you know as the venues get bigger it's harder to do the 100 percent right you know the bands want more money now actually in the vegas brooklyn bowl it's 2,500 people we're 80 20 a lot too on the merch but this the new york thing we really tried to lead with 100 you know try to do everything we couldn by the way, don't underestimate hanging and eating the food and the bowling and the girlfriend or the boyfriend of the band is getting it during soundcheck instead of sitting in an empty green room.

With a crudité plate, we've got these lanes and this great food and just trying to create an atmosphere for them. It's just better. That's what I try to do. How about this piece? Some of the folks that you've promoted and hired and become friends with, I mean, the list is almost, it's hard to even imagine from Snoop to U2 to the Rolling Stones, obviously the dead, Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Sting. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore.

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deeply influenced you where do you land who on who do you land well the grateful dad is where I had my sliding doors moment, which is you either get on the train, you make it, or you don't, if the doors close. And in one scenario, you make the train, and your life goes in a certain path. Something happens. You meet someone on the train, and everything goes from there.

The other version is you don't make the train, and your life's different. I just happened to go to a Grateful Dead concert as a college student in Chicago in March of 1993. I mean, this is, I believe you can hear it in my book, Rosemont Horizon. I went to a show. They had a special guest, Ken Nordine, who do spoken word. And then something happened when he just started doing a spoken word that the next thing I knew, I was in the parking lot. I left. My head was in a certain place, and it was snowing,

and I was in a drum circle. These kids were not going back to Northwestern. I was 20, going back to college that night. They weren't going home. They had the school bus and the drum circle, the classic grateful dead parking lot scene and i had never seen anything like that by the way i still have it that does not exist that traveling circus is there's no other comp to that but that's all so i make it somehow i make it

back to college i didn't have a phone of how don't know how I found my friends. But, you know, we talk about being at doors for shows, which is you want to be at doors. You're first in line so that when the doors open, you run to the front of the floor and right on the barricade, first row. I was at doors for the library at Northwestern the next morning, 8, 9 a.m., because I was a film kid. And I wanted to research what had been done on this unbelievable thing I had seen in the parking lot at the Grateful Dead show.

Forget the band. I'm talking about the fans in the scene. And about two months later, I found another student at Northwestern who was a film kid who owned the video cameras. 93. Remember video cameras were big, but you could get one and like shoot video. And it was early 90s. And I went in a van for a month. We rented an all white Econoline Ford, no window van, which I learned quickly. If you're going to show up at the Grateful Dead show

to shoot a documentary, don't show up in an all white van with no windows. Because we pulled in to Auburn Hills, Michigan for the first day. And then DEA, DEA. So I'm like, Phil, keep driving. Get us out of here. Yeah, get us out of here. We walked back.

Oh, God. So, yeah, it's called Miles to Go. It's on YouTube, Miles to Go, if you put it in, or Shapiro and Miles to Go. I made an hour-long film. And you ready to ban. I think I mentioned before it wasn't in it, but I got Ken Kesey and Tim Leary and all. And I went on the road with all the kids that were like me.

Wait, wait, wait. Was, was professor Tim Leary. Yeah. Like, okay.

So how do you get an interview with Tim Leary? And so can you just, can you describe that? That's a whole nother thing, but, but by the way, Larry Block who owned wetlands saw the film just to bring this full circle. And you talked about wetland, you know, he, he saw the film, which was created by this kid who saw the important, then Garcia died in 95. And I say to Larry, you know,

because he announces he can't do wetlands anymore. It's too much. He's going to pass it on. And I raise my hand and say, I've seen firsthand this scene. Garcia's gone, but I know the music will still go and there'll be all these new bands. And I want to help perpetuate that in Wetlands. So that's kind of how, and then from Wetlands, I do Brooklyn Ball in the Capitol Theater and then to here today with you. Like, I believe, I i really if i hadn't i was not going to be a concert promoter i had no interest i barely i saw jane lollapalooza that was my second dead show ever but if i don't go to that

dead show and they pass through town and i don't end up in that parking lot and want to go make a film. I do. I would have made a film about something else, I think, but not, you know, and, and, but I went and did the dead. I met Larry from that and wetlands and the rest. He's not why I believe that in my heart. I know that's cool. That it all came, it all came from that night. It goes back to the, to your earlier, your earlier note that you've got to be there to be there. And, you know, even more importantly from a psychological perspective is like, even though your body might be there, you need to be there fully present or like the moments

ripped by so fast that you kind of get left out of the the train you know doors that are closing so yeah so what about what about um i've chosen you went through the list of stuff i i've done a lot yeah yeah i feel good i'm kind of glad i wrote it was hesitant to do this book at first i'm a little young but i feel so good i i've got it down now because i feel like you know after a physics test in high school or chemistry when you took the final and you were done, you're like, okay, I'm never going to need to know that chemistry. I can push it out of my brain. I'm so glad I went back. First of all, I don't know if people who wait to the end of their life, I wouldn't have remembered most of it in 20 years, 25 years.

I barely remember it now. I had help. The internet helps. And I had a writer who helped me a lot. But I feel so good. You know, I'm glad I've leaned into being there a lot. I've taken a lot of red eye. You asked about my kids.

You know, I would go to Vegas. You know, I've mastered like leaving. You know, I had a venue in London and Vegas. I figured out you could leave New York on a Thursday night. Take the red eye to London. Wake up Friday morning. still take like a nap, you know, do a show in London on Friday night, do a show in London on Saturday night, Sunday morning, Sunday, let's say noon, fly to Vegas. It's a long 11 hour flight, but you gain eight hours, right? Five hours to New York, eight hours.

So you land at one or two o'clock in vegas three o'clock then i would do a show in vegas that night and take the midnight 1 a.m last red eye back to new york i'd be in new york monday morning and i can sleep yeah yeah one trick is being able to sleep anywhere anyone listening wants it that's a trick i'm always taught you know being able to sleep but i left thursday night i was back monday morning and I saw two shows in London and a show in Vegas. I mean, you just got, and anyone can do that in their life going to draw. I think it's just how you approach it. You know, I'm going to road trip here.

I'm going to logistics, you know, and then like, but I've done a lot of being there, you know, and going as a fan as a as my business and that's you know i just you know that i'm chasing that feeling you can't in the end part of it's the show live music for me it would never fade i don't know what it is about it it just doesn't fade every time that met you know and it powers me again to want more and there's not it's beyond money or they're getting a massage your money in a nice car or a massage by the way i don't have i've done more and been successful because i didn't make a lot of money because i'm still ch i i think once you make a bunch of money and maybe it'll have i

hope it happens one day one day for me i think i will lose an edge but i've make a bunch of money, and maybe it'll happen. I hope it happens one day for me. I think I will lose an edge. But I've made a lot of decisions that cost more. And this whole corporate shareholder, return to shareholder philosophy, that does not jive with giving people. You've got to spend extra to get the tie-dye shirts with security guys. It's not that much, or even the light, you know, you gotta, some decisions cost more, you'll make less, you know, if a band asked for something extra, you know, do you, you know, so I've leaned into that and, and probably made less and, and, uh, but i always try to make the decision that's right you know for for the moment

it's not always the economic one you sound more like an invested artist like you know what i need i need this guitar or i want that sound so we're going to go to this studio and well that studio is really expensive or it's across the world i I want that, you know, and there's that extra investment in the art. And it sounds like you aligned. Yeah, the lights, by the way. We had a joke. Yeah, after a big private, a lot of the money when you make is private events. You know, let's get some new toys.

Like rather than, hey, let's take the money. Like, let's get some new lights. I see. You know, let's get some new lights you know after you know let's let's get some new lights so just a few a few like moving away from business just for a moment like i'm i think leonard cohen is amazing like what what did you learn from leonard what do you reme and maybe maybe it's like ah you know we barely knew each other like that that one didn't move me in any way but i know you had a long history with Bono.

Well, yeah. Well, that overlaps. Yeah. So Leonard Cohen... I mean, here's a good thing of having a venue. I was the first investor and partner in a place called The Slipper Room on the Lower East Side. It opened in 99. And it was like a vaudeville theater, beautiful inside. And I got the call one day from Jamesames habacker who ran it started it and said leonard cohen's shooting thank god he called me he said i want to give you a heads up we're shooting this documentary film remember there was a great film about leonard cohen they shot the closing scene at the slipper room and he's like you too is gonna do it with him and i'm and you're invited you know because you're a part you know so I go there he

didn't even realize James but I had been trying to get to you too I was working on a 3D technology and I wanted to get to you too and I it's hard to get to you too Paul McGinnis wasn't really responding and I go there and Paul McGinnis is there and mona i'm standing i'm allowed to be in there because i own the place no one else is no it's true you know you know and uh but here's a good thing i learned ready so i'm standing there we're hanging out i introduced pete shapiro you know by the way i reached out to working on this 3d luckily the venue is incredible and beautiful leonard cohen goes across they're shooting a scene in the song And he goes across the street to the coffee shop. No one knew where he was. And but this delayed things in the shoot. So I had some time there with, you know, talk to Paul

and all this. I made a decision, then Leonard comes back in, and the band gets ready to shoot this scene. And here's what i learned right you can sometimes you want to leave early rather than be the last one standing because when you leave early and i didn't want to leave early leonard cohen's playing a slipper with you too but by leaving a little early i got to go to paul mcis, who's the legendary manager of YouTube, and say goodbye. Paul, good to see you. I'm having you here. I got to go.

I made up a thing. And he said, good to see you. And I said, by the way, I've been trying to reach you on this 3D thing. We want to show you this technology. And I'd love to show you our demo. He pulled out his black book. He goes, great. When do you want to do it? I said, next week. He put out his black book. He goes, great. When do you want to do it?

I said, next week. He put out his black book. And we set up a time. I showed it to him. And I went and made a movie with him. If I had waited to watch the full Leonard Cohen performance, which I wanted to. I'm alone in the play.

Paul McGinnis, he wasn't going to say goodbye to Pete Shapiro. Any moment, he could have just walked out, his wife called, and left. And if I had stuck around, he would have left. I wouldn't have had a chance to say goodbye and say, he just would have left. I wouldn't be in his black book. I actually believe, just like they did, if I had stuck around and waited, he would have left.

He would have not said goodbye. And I wouldn't have a screening with him the next week. And I wouldn't have made the movie. I wouldn't have been able to reach him. So when I think back to Leonard Cohen, my experience, pretty wild. I left in the middle of his performance so that I could say goodbye to Paul McGinnis.

And when you say goodbye to someone, you get to say, great to see you, Michael. By the way, this versus you wait and you overplay your hand you stay too long and they just left and you can't find them you got that makes sense but that's a good that's a real one yeah these are all you you are you are a true founder you know you are founders. You've got that scrappiness to make something happen. And it's super clean and clear for you. And so I've, listen, I've really appreciate your time and your insight. I've really enjoyed your book.

And I just want to say thank you for sharing some of the practices and the ways of thinking that have helped you and in return helping us. So all that being said, is there a send off that you would like to maybe challenge our community or, you know, to nudge our community to do more of this or less of that or do something that's been meaningful to you so that they can be better? The first thing that was fun. It went by fast and different than the usual ones so thanks for

having me on um i'll leave you with this anyone who wants to do this put on a show anyone can because and i i you know put on the grateful dead reunion biggest concerts probably maybe in america by a band three nights soldier field by the after those shows, there were 50 shows a night throughout Chicago off of it. But I still do Grateful Day cover bands, little things. And I'm doing all, you know, it's just, you know, and anyone can do that. Anyone can go rent a bar in their town or city and book a cover band, book their friend's band,

their brother's band for 40 people. You still need to book the band, book the venue, put it on sale, market the show, do the box office, do the sound check, do the right, you know, put on the show, then settle the show after, pay the band. Even if you're paying the band 50 bucks, 100 bucks, 30 people show up. You're still putting on a show. A lot of the things that you have to do for $80,000 are the same for $80,000. So anyone hearing this, listening, who's wanted to try it,

you can do it in your backyard. You know, you can do it. And you can have 15. I still love going to, you know, a small show. You get that magic feel. You don't have to be in an arena to get the magic you know it can show up anywhere so anyone can do that that's awesome that that points straight back to know your fundamentals work those muscles work those ways of thinking

so that you can be eloquent when bigger risk or bigger opportunities are presented. Like, I love it. Foundational. Last question. Best little gem or nugget or takeaway that one of the artists that you've worked with has shared with you that impacted you? Well, I mean, it was interesting from Bono, not surprisingly how much when we showed him that demo of 3d technology that we showed paul mcginnis then we showed it to bono

and his question the lights came up in the theater we were at a digital 3d test that we showed and his question was so the idea was to do a u2 3d movie and he said would will we be first that was the first group is okay will we be first yeah okay let's do this you know so and and by the way you don't always want the other thing i've learned starting a business you talk about founders you know being first is hard. It's a lot harder. Sometimes you want to be second. A lot of people have made a lot of money out there, probably pick things up, you know? So like there's the magic of being first creatives.

The artist wants to be first, but as a business person, you might want to be second. Isn't that the case? Somebody else can build a marketplace. You just want to be able to capture it. I think Microsoft is in their story. Those guys, Gates and Paul Allen, right? They weren't, there was someone else about screwing around.

The first guy often ends up, by the way, I almost did. I almost went bankrupt. But that can be on our next stat show. Going to vape, I almost went bankrupt, but fortunately I didn't. And I and I've had people in that, you know, sometimes you want to be second, but your heart, your magic, Bono, you want to be first. Yeah. I hear that. And I think it was the dead that said, I don't want to be, I don't want to be the best. I want to be the only one doing it. Something like that. Yeah. So there's, there's that category too.

So Peter, you're a legend and I understand, I understand it now. And so thank you for time and stories and insights and best practices that you use. And I would like to learn about how you avoided bankruptcy, but maybe we'll, we'll, we'll share that or we'll reserve that for part two. Thanks, Michael. That was fun, buddy. Yeah. Appreciate you. All right. Take care. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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