Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Plastic Recycling Doesn’t Work and Will Never Work | Judith Enck

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

This week’s conversation is with Judith Enck, a former Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) administrator, the founder of Beyond Plastics, and a visiting professor at Bennington College. In 2009, Judith was appointed by President Barack Obama as the Regional Administrator of the EPA, where she oversaw environmental protections in New York, New Jersey, eight Indian Nations, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands – in addition to managing a staff of 800 and a $700M budget.Judith has also served as Deputy Secretary for the Environment in the New York Governor’s Office, and Policy Advisor to the New York State Attorney General.Now, Judith is the founder and president of Beyond Plastics, an organization based out of Bennington College that is on a mission to end plastic pollution through education, advocacy, and institutional change. I can’t think of many more pressing and important topics in today’s society than the environmental crisis – and I was shocked to hear some of the grim statistics and information Judith shared about where we’re at and where we’re heading if we don’t turn this thing around. However, as you’ll hear Judith share, there is still hope – and it starts with all of us “doing what we can, where we are, with what we have”._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Yeah, it's really serious. All the plastic in the world today will outlive you and I. We want to be honest with people, but we also need to give people hope. And the way I give people hope is by giving them things to do that make a difference. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, and I'm excited to welcome Judith Enk. As our guest on this week's episode,

she was appointed by President Obama as a regional administrator of the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency. She's held several other top influential positions in state and federal government where she advised on environmental policy. So now Judith is the founder and the president of Beyond Plastics, which I want to encourage you to check out beyondplastics.org, which is an organization based out of Bennington College that is on a mission to end plastic pollution through education, advocacy, and institutional change. Judith, thanks for being here. I am thrilled to be here. Thank you,

Michael. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation. Your name came across our desk when we read an article about plastic recycling in the Atlantic earlier in the year. And I was fascinated, meet horrified by what you shared and how you shared the information surrounding recycling and the impact on the environment. And so that's obviously why I wanted to have you on. That being said, I can't think of a more important conversation to have about where we are right now. So I'm wondering if you could maybe start us off with the state of the union for plastics in our planet.

Yeah, Michael, it's pretty grim. Americans and people worldwide care about the environment. They are particularly concerned about the proliferation of plastic pollution, which is a greater threat in the global South because the United States and the EU export a lot of plastic to other countries that cannot be managed in our own countries, which I think is extraordinarily problematic. So there's this disconnect between what the public wants and then what's actually happening in commerce and in the world of politics. And the reason why I've spent the last 40 years working on environmental

protection issues is I'm a big believer in do what you can, where you are with what you have. So I am someone, just one person who cares about the environment in the United States. I'm not an international expert, but I certainly understand the implications internationally. But we've got a fundamental problem in the United States. The U.S. is 4% of the world's population, but we use 17% of the world's energy. We gobble up 24% of the world's natural resources. And then not surprisingly, we create 12% of the world's waste. This is not sustainable. And I think the plastic pollution problem illustrates the lack of sustainability more than almost anything.

Wow. Okay. So when you think about a way through, I'm thinking about Leonard Cohen right now, one of the great singer-songwriter poets that says, in everything, there's a crack. And it's in that crack where the light comes through. So it's dark. It's like not good. Where do you see the light? Because I'll share with you like this matters to me. I grew up in the ocean surfing. I feel connected in that way to mother nature and I get overwhelmed. Like I hear these stats and I get overwhelmed. I'm like, okay. So in our family,

we recycle our company here at finding mastery. Um, we have had support from a company called Kalima where we are carbon neutral. And, um, so we're making small contributions, but then I get overwhelmed. Like the, the, the big companies that are like, I don't know, doing their thing and kind of being sloppy with the way that they take care of our resources is crazy making to me. And so where's the light? Where's the crack that we can find some? Well, you're right. It's pretty grim. And by the end of the day, after spending the day, looking at the connection between plastics and climate change, plastics and the ocean, plastics and environmental justice and health, it can get overwhelming. So I will say at the end of my workday, I do kind of crawl to the finish line, but I wake up every morning actually excited and hopeful about change.

And that's because I think we have the public on our side. People know something's off and they want to do something about it. And while I have met many climate change deniers, I've never met a plastic pollution denier because the evidence is everywhere. You go to a park, you see a plastic bag in the tree. You walk down a city street, you see people tossing cigarette butts all over the place. And those cigarette butts have little bits of plastic in them. You're at the beach, people have plastic water bottles. If it gets loose, it goes right into the water. The real serious part of this is that we

are turning our ocean into a landfill. About 15 million metric tons of plastic enter the ocean every year, mostly from the land. When I first heard that statistic, I thought, is there illegal dumping with cruise ships? Well, there's a little bit of that, but most of it is litter. So let's say you're walking down the street in New York City and a plastic bag is littered. It rains, the plastic bag goes into a storm sewer, then it goes into the East River or the Hudson River, and it very likely goes into the ocean. When it gets out into the ocean, it's exposed to sunlight, so it gets brittle. And then you've got wave action, and the waves act almost like paper cutters. So one plastic bag will be thousands of pieces of microplastics

that then become available in the marine environment. The United Nations has documented close to 300 species are impacted by plastic pollution in a negative way. Seabirds, fish, marine mammals, and you and I. So the problem is getting worse. I know numbers are numbing, but one way to think about this is scientists tell us that unless we change things, and we are definitely going to talk about how to change the trajectory, by 2025, for every three pounds of fish in the ocean, there will be one pound of plastic. And that is so serious, particularly for giant parts of the world's population relies on fish as their major source of protein. So fish, especially marine life that you eat whole, mussels, shrimp, oysters, all have microplastics in it.

So it's pretty serious. We're really screwing up the web of life. Okay. So where's the crack? Where's the hope? The hope is first, individuals are taking action. More and more people are bringing their own bags to the supermarket. When they go out for coffee in the morning, they're getting their coffee served in reusable cups. There are green businesses that are taking off that know that the public wants an alternative to plastics. I will say, though, the problem is so serious that we cannot solve it with individual action. We need institutional change. I'm a former federal

regulator. So the way I think you change the status quo is by passing new laws and then enforcing those laws. And that is slowly happening all over the world. About 10 states now in the U.S. have banned plastic bags. That's like overnight. When I, during COVID, I would go to our local supermarket and pick up groceries curbside. I would order online and I would, because I didn't want to go inside the store. And I would sometimes show up early just to watch people entering the supermarket with their reusable bags, you know, big burly guys smoking cigarettes in the parking lot and bringing in reusable bags. New Yorkers use about 22 billion plastic bags a year.

So having a state the size of New York ban plastic bags is significant. So we are slowly making progress. That's where the crack is. We have the public on our side. There was a recent poll that showed 82% of American voters want to embrace local, state, and federal policies that reduce the use of plastic. And what's really encouraging is that this is bipartisan. This is Republicans, Democrats, Green Party, Independent Party people across the board. People want to see less plastic. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already

know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal.

That's linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day, certainly,

I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar.

It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters

and that can't be understated not just for strength but for energy and focus recovery for longevity and I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. It's like in my home when Amazon or whomever ships something, and I know I'm not talking about plastics right now, but the amount of paper or the size of the box is also, I want to stay down the plastics lane, but I'm echoing your sentiment on like people don't want these practices and unfortunately people don't want to pay the price maybe for to go to a glass

bottle as opposed to a plastic bottle, which is cheaper. And you can maybe course correct me on that. And California is one of those States that did that. And actually, I don't know if California did it, but I know that our local in the South Bay of California, they're banned. And for a while, straws were banned too, which was really cool. And so we had these, I don't know, were they like paper straws that, you know, if you go to a restaurant and then they're slowly starting to creep back in. Because I think we say one thing, which is we want good for the planet. We don't want plastics. This is not cool. And then we want our conveniences. And so it's a little bit of

crazy making it's called cognitive dissonance. Right. And it's a little crazy making that we, we do this to ourselves and the planet. And part of it is because the, um, the consequence is not immediate and swift. And so- Yeah, and it's not where we live. So on a lot of these issues, you have to constantly hit the reset button. So local governments need to remind people, how do you properly recycle?

If there's a law in the books that it's plastic straws only upon request, there's a lot of turnover in the hospitality industry. You have to constantly remind people. But where the damage is being felt is in communities like Louisiana and Texas and Appalachia, where plastics are being produced. And then in countries like Malaysia, Vietnam, the Philippines, where plastics are being exported from the US and the EU. So I think a lot of the plastics issue is viewed through the lens of what's your zip code. You know, if you're a restaurant owner in the Bay Area,

you might not educate your staff all the time about alternatives to plastic. But if you're in touch with people living in a, there's a stretch of Louisiana, 80 miles along the Mississippi River, where there's a concentration of petrochemical facilities and plastics as chemicals and fossil fuels. So we have this concentration of communities where petrochemical expansion is happening.

Louisiana, Texas, Appalachia. The stretch of river, it's about 80 miles along the Mississippi in Louisiana, is actually called Cancer Alley. Come on. Because the cancer rates are so high. And people just kind of casually toss that out. Oh, this is happening in Cancer Alley. And it hurts your heart, especially when you know people who live in Cancer Alley and where the cancer rates are skyrocketing. And we know it's because people are exposed to carcinogenic chemicals

from the making of plastic, among other things. So there's a lot at stake. Okay. So why doesn't recycling work? Well, I'm a big supporter of recycling. Oh, you are? I support recycling of paper, cardboard, metal, glass. I started my town's recycling program in upstate New York 35 years ago. Everyone out there there keep recycling. However, plastics recycling has been a failure. And you've got really smart listeners who can make the distinction on what you should and shouldn't put in your recycling bin. The article I had in the Atlantic with co author Jan Dell from a group called The Last Beach Cleanup, articulated that in the United

States, we only recycle five to six percent of our plastics. Putting plastics into the recycling bin doesn't mean it gets recycled. And a lot of people are confused because they're the recycling, the iconic three chasing arrows. And companies and brands put that on their packaging, knowing full well that the plastic bag or the polystyrene or styrofoam package, that may have the chasing arrow symbol on it, but it's not recyclable. Here's the story on why we have such a low recycling rate in the US. And it's never, ever topped 10 percent. It's never gotten into double digits.

It was 9.5 in 2014. So we've gotten worse. We've gotten worse mostly because China closed its doors to U.S. and European recyclables because we were sending them so much trash with the recycling. So here's the problem. When you are recycling an aluminum can, you recycle it into a new aluminum can. So can to can. And by the way, you save 95% of the energy as if you were making the aluminum can from scratch.

Plastics are, there are literally hundreds of different types of plastics. And they don't lend itself to easy recycling. So think of your own house. You may have a bright orange detergent bottle near your washing machine. And then in your refrigerator, you may have a clear, squeezable plastic bottle for ketchup. Those things cannot be recycled together. So we have hundreds of different types of plastics, all with chemical additives that are different, and all with different colorants. So it's not like the aluminum can or the newsprint. It doesn't get recycled into a new detergent bottle or a new condiment bottle. It often will get recycled into like decking for,

you know, your back porch. It's called downcycling. But what you and I and most people usually do is wish cycle. We put things into the recycling bin and just hope that it gets recycled. The reality is, if you look at the bottom of the container, you'll see a teeny tiny number. Number one and number two can get recycled. But all the other numbers do not put in your recycling bin because it just contaminates the load. Okay. So if that stuff's in there, what happens? Does it get sorted or does the whole load? Yes. Well, what happens is it goes to a recycling center called a material recovery facility and the non-recyclables get pulled out and it gets sent to a landfill or an incinerator. But sometimes when there's so much non-recyclables in the load, the whole load may get rejected. And that's what China did to the United States. We kept shipping them loads that had like 40%

contaminants, meaning stuff that wasn't recyclable. The plastics industry knows this. They know their material better than you and I do. They know it's not recyclable, but they still put the Chasing Arrow logo on so many things. And they confuse the public because they know the public supports recycling. But plastic recycling has been an abysmal failure. Oh, Jesus. So what does a higher number mean? It's just the resin code. It doesn't mean anything.

It's just the type of plastic resin it is. Okay. So do you have any numbers there? Yeah. Our producer, our coffee shop next door, so our producer just went and grabbed a tea and it's got the three arrows and it's

got a five on it. Not recyclable. Alex, what are you doing? We can't, so we need to say to them something. Okay, so it's paper, so that part's right, but the plastic is like polypropylene. If it says number five and the paper is, I don't even think we shouldn't be even drinking

from that kind of plastic. How about it? Right. You should not because there's also toxic chemicals in plastics. So we're going to get Alex a reusable mug that he's going to bring over and over to the store. Alex, Alex. Oh, so he says he's got one.

Okay. So I listen. so I'm always using mine. Okay. And so, um, they don't like to touch it by the way, when you go to a tea or coffee shop, they're like, uh, do you want me to clean it for you? I'm like, no, just put it in there. It's fine. I just, I just cleaned it. Okay. So what about, uh, these kinds of these types of things? Yeah, that looks like now, Jean, I would, I would shift to metal or glass. Right. Like one of these jobs. You have it right, Michael. And I bet you you're going to use that, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of times before you lose it.

So let's give a plug to Mirror. They're up in Seattle and they've done some nice work. We partnered with them on a project and it's M-I-I-R. They've done a nice job and their products feel really good. And yeah, I'm using it forever. Like it little confused. And now more and more people bring their own cups. It was often stopped during COVID. But now most coffee shops will take that. And also, I find people working in coffee shops, when I talk to them, they don't love the idea that they are personally handing out thousands of single-use disposable cups every day. And many are very interested in being part of the solution and will take a little bit of that extra time to fill your reusable cup, which is really nice of them. Yeah, it's really good. I think that companies like Starbucks, I think they give you a discount even.

They don't charge you for the cup, but there's some sort of incentive for that. They recognize that they're not costing as much to produce that. Yeah, they save money. They don't have to buy all the cups. I teach at Bennington College in Vermont, and I realize we breathe rarefied air in Vermont. It's not everywhere. But the college administration on their own, without me even talking to them, opened a new coffee shop on campus. If you want coffee or tea, you have to bring your own cup. Okay. Come on. No disposable cups at all. So I want to tell you about this company. I don't know if you've heard of them. They're called,

it's called Future, P-H-U-T-U-R-E, Future. And it's a pH water. So it's designed for hydration, which is the science is really exciting to me. I'm just not getting involved with them. But when you hold it, this is their big thing is that it's 100% biodegradable. I think it's maybe 99% or something. Cause there is a small little reusable plastic bit that you drink from the bottle, but everything else goes. So it goes in the trash can. And so fossil fuels aren't used to be able to quote unquote recycle it. And have you heard of that company Future? I have heard of that innovation. I don't think I've heard of the company and I'm very interested in that and supportive, but I do want to say the better move is reusable containers.

There you go. Yeah. And I think that, I think here's like, if I, if I'm dehydrated, I don't have a way to get water. I don't, or I don't have my, my reusable and I'm running into a store to grab something. What do I grab? Do I grab plastic? Do I grab metal? Do I grab glass? Or do I grab something that's fully biodegradable? And I'm more interested in the fully biodegradable, but I'd love to hear your

take about that versus glass or metal. Yeah. So I think the nice thing about glass and metal is that it can be made from recycled material, and then you can often easily recycle it. So we're seeing more and more companies offering water in aluminum cans. in what the innovation that you're talking about. I'm not sure what I would say about the, you know, one-on-one comparison. They probably want it to be composted since it's biodegradable, which means you have to keep it separate in a composting bin. And then it typically only goes to high temperature commercial composting operations.

What always wins is reusables. So I look, I know it's not always possible. You're not always schlepping your reusable with you. And look, none of us have to be perfect. You just you just do the best you can. I don't know if you've heard the phrase zero waste, where there are a lot of people who aspire to creating zero waste. And my favorite quote about zero waste is from a woman named Anne-Marie Bonneau. She says, we don't need a handful of people doing zero waste perfectly. We need millions of people doing zero waste imperfectly. So you do the best you can. You don't guilt trip people. But we should also make it easy for people. For instance, I came back from Europe a number of

years ago and was so impressed with the number of public drinking fountains, drinking water fountains all over Rome, all over Italy. I could just keep refilling my container. And I get back to New York City, you rarely see a public drinking water fountain. I don't like it. I hear it. I hear the intelligence of what you're saying. But I just go back to like in fourth grade, and some kid was drooling all over the handle or in the space. I don't know. And so in a public place, maybe I'm COVID scarred or something, but I feel a little How about the water refill stations that you see in airports?

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Where you don't, unless someone's like twisting their head and sticking their mouth. And yeah, I'm okay with those. That only happens twice a day. Yeah. Right. I'm okay. Like that one feels good to me. And then I start getting weird, like about, is this water actually

filtered properly? And then I go, wait, hold on. The bottled water is probably like, not what they say it is. And so I kind of, I move past that one quickly, but I do use those. Well, bottled water has more microplastics in it than tap water. And we think it's the abrasion of the bottle cap, little bits of plastic get into the water. But water at public drinking water fountains is the same water that's coming to your kitchen sink. It's exactly the same. Say that again. Say that again. Water coming from public drinking water fountains is the same as water coming from your kitchen sink. And when you're home, in your home or apartment, you're probably getting most of your water from your kitchen sink, right? Not in LA. I don't know. It doesn't taste right to me. So ours is filtered. Good. Yeah. Yeah. So you're,

you're traumatized by the kid in fourth grade. I'm sorry about that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third party tested.

NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine.

And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray.

I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Gray's

in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself,ix gray is offering all finding mastery listeners 20 off just head to felixgray.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at checkout again that's felix gray you spell it f-e-l-i-x g-r-a-y.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at fel FelixGray.com for 20% off. All fun aside, I do want to learn about a way that people can get involved. So make great choices, right?

Like be smart about reusables, eliminate or reduce plastics as best as you possibly can. And then what are some of the policies that we can get involved? And I also want to kind of gently understand, like, how did you put yourself in a position to be appointed, you know, by President Obama to be the regional administrator for EPA? Yeah, sure. So people should go to our website, which is beyondplastics.org, plural. We have a lot of good information on taking action in your own community. And you can get involved to the degree that you're comfortable. And if you have no time, but you have a lot of money, you can send us a donation and we will work for you. It's tax deductible. We also just earlier this year started a new initiative called local groups and affiliates where three people or more can come together and start a local beyond plastics group. It really only takes three people in a community

to change the world. I also teach an online class on Zoom on plastic pollution. I used to teach this just to wonderful Bennington College students in person and then COVID hit and Bennington College asked if I would teach the class on Zoom, which I've been doing and I have every semester over a hundred students from all over the world taking the class. What's so interesting is two thirds of the students are community people who are auditing the class because they want information to take action. And so my students, my college students get to see, I mean, we have these great conversations after class, like, oh, my gosh, these community people are spending like, you know,

20 hours a week doing volunteer work on plastics. How is that? Why do they do that? So my students see people taking action. And then the community people learn about pronouns from my students. wonderful fertilization information and so lots on our our our web page on how to get involved and again you do a little you do a lot definitely send us money um the other thing is there's a very important bill introduced in the congress it's called the Break Free from Plastic Pollution Act. What it does is puts a pause on the construction of new petrochemical facilities that make plastic. It adopts a nationwide ban on plastic bags. It provides a minimum deposit on beverage containers or bottle bills. Ten states have bottle bills to encourage more reuse and recycling. It's a polystyrene ban.

Its plastics draws only upon request. It directs the federal government to look at the health impacts of microplastics. It's sponsored by Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley, who is a tremendous environmental leader. The House sponsor is from California, Representative Alan Lowenthal. He is retiring, unfortunately, at the end of the year, so there'll be a new sponsor. But let me share the bill numbers with your listeners. And I have to let you in on a little secret. Most members of Congress never hear from their constituents. So if they get like literally 15 or 20 phone calls on a bill, they pay attention, especially from constituents. So people who are busy,

don't spend time calling members of Congress that are not your elected representatives. You can call Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. You can call House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. But you want to become pen pals or phone friends with your own House member and your two U.S. senators. So I know this is very U.S.-centric. And so people in other countries, you replicate it to your level of government. But in the U.S., call your two U.S. senators and urge them to support Break Free from Plastic Pollution Act, which is Senate Bill number 984. And then the same bill is introduced on the House side, H.R. 2238. And there's lots of information on the details of this bill on the Beyond Plastics website. Okay, brilliant. I love that call to action. I want to say if you're listening right

now, like, this would be great. You know, like, you know, you know what I Michael, you know what I did a few years ago in the run up to the Iraq war, which I was so personally opposed to, I just put my house member and my two US senators in my phone. So when I'm driving hands free, I just, I just call them every day, their numbers in your phone. Judith, like, that's a gadfly, you know, like that is awesome. So, so, but that is great. So you just leave a message. They see your number pop up and they're like, Judith, Judith is calling again. Well, no, you usually get a real person. It's an intern. And then they keep a tally of who's calling on what. So if there's an issue that you're reaching, so this is to your

question, where do you see the light? When you're outraged by something, and as the saying goes, if you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. So whatever the issue is, take that concern and call your elected officials, write a letter to the editor, do something. Okay. So let's do this to be balanced. What is the downside? What is the counter argument that is reasonable? What is their position based on logic that they say the opposition says, no, it's bloated, it's too expensive. It's like, what is the counter argument? Well, the opposition says it's not realistic to get rid of plastics in our commerce. Plastics are cheap, which is true. So why make people pay more? You know, the question is, who's really paying? You know, we're paying with our health, we're paying with taxpayers having to clean up

all this litter. The plastic producers have no skin in the game. You know, if you're a big company like McDonald's or Kellogg's or Unilever, you, your packaging designers sit down and they think about, okay, how do we make this attractive so people buy it and it stands out on the shelf? They're not thinking what happens to it after it's purchased. And we have to get them skin in the game. And there are different state bills called extended producer responsibility, which makes the packaging companies take some responsibility for what they're flooding the market with. But the major argument I hear, look, I go around the country, I support local polystyrene bans, Break Free from

Plastics Pollution Act, statewide bills to ban plastic bags. I hear the same arguments every time. And that is, we don't want to lose jobs. There are a lot of people employed in the fossil fuel and the chemical industry. And that's what plastics are made from. And the second thing is, the alternatives to plastics are more expensive than single-use plastic. That is sometimes true. And my response is, well, expensive to who? There's a phrase called environmental externalities. If you're a fossil fuel power plant and you've got all sorts

of pollution coming from the smokestack and therefore Adirondack lakes are dead because of acid rain or people living near the smokestack have high asthma rates, who's paying for all of that damage? Yeah, so it's short term versus long term. I mean, the planet's paying, our kids are paying, we're paying in a different way. And so, okay. And how much does it cost? It varies item by item, and that's why I'm so focused on reusables and refillables. There are a lot of reusable products that'll go around a thousand times.

So reusables can be cheaper than plastics, as long as you use them a lot. And let's be clear that what we're advocating for is reusables, right? Not something that is, this bill is to reduce plastic, is to make it harder to have single use, whatever. Okay. I've go back to that helpless thing, you know, and I, I don't have, I do not have a psychology of helplessness. This place, though, this environmental thing, it just feels so big. And I'm so inspired. When I read your work in The Atlantic and then I listened to you now, I'm like, right. We need more people like Judith out there kicking ass.

And like, Judith, you are really intelligent in this space and your passion is legitimate. Can you hold my hand for just a moment? Would you hold my hand and help me understand, like, how do I call my Congress? Like, okay, so I'm in California, in Southern California. What do I do? I'm sorry to ask you this, but like, I want to do it right now with you. If you don't mind. It's a wonderful question. And I assume too much. So the first thing you do is you want to figure out who represents you. So Alex, who's representing us? Okay. Alex is on there right now.

Let's start with your two US senators. So one is Dianne Feinstein. She's been in office a long time. And the second is newly elected. And I can't remember his name. So figure out your two U.S. senators and your one house member. So let's start with Dianne Feinstein. So you go to the internet and you Google, what is Dianne Feinstein's phone number? And it'll pop up. What do you got, Alex? Alex is pulling it up right now.

It'll be her Washington DC office. Okay. And it'll be some of her local California offices. And you can call either. Okay. And then, so we would go through all of them. So we're going to call right now. 202-224-3841. Okay. And then so we would go through all of them. So we're going to call right now. 202-224-3841. Okay. So what do I say?

Before you call, take one minute to think about what you're going to say. So you're calling because you really want to reduce plastics. Yes, I do. And you always want the bill number. So you're calling to urge her to support Senate Bill 984. Make a few notes. They're busy. Can you hear? Okay. Hold or call back in a few minutes. Okay, so we're not going to let you go, Diane. We're calling back. Hold or call back in a few minutes. Okay.

So we're not going to let you, we're not going to let you go, Diane. We're calling back. Okay. That is really bad constituent services. It's bad. That's bad. Most house and Senate offices, you get three to a person. Look at that, dude.

I feel deflated again. Not really. No, actually I'm fired up. So it's, it's nine, eight, five, four. No, nine, eight, four is the number, right? Senate bill nine, eight, four. Yeah. Senate bill SB nine, eight, four. Okay. So that's what we're doing. All right. Good. I'm fired up right now. Okay. So I'm calling back before you're done. And then, and I'm going to say, listen, I'm concerned about plastics and you know, I I'm, I'm supporting SB 984. S S 984. SS. Just S.

Just S. Okay. Perfect. All right. S 984. Okay. Judith, let's go back. Let's give her a few minutes to gather herself. Ms. Diane Feinstein. Let's give her a few minutes to gather herself, Ms. Diane Feinstein. Let's give her a few minutes, okay? And then, so let's go back though. How did you position yourself to be on the council, the EPA council for appointed by President Obama? Well, the fun thing about EPA is, which was started, by the way, by Richard Nixon. The main office is in Washington, D.C.,

and then there are 10 regional offices all over the country. And the regional offices is where the fun is. If you think cleaning up toxic waste sites and dealing with sewage and rivers is fun, which I do. So there are 10 regions, and I've lived my whole life in upstate New York. So I live in EPA region two, which is a really cool region. It's New York, eight Indian nations in New York, New Jersey, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. So it's basically like three different regions. And I knew the New York issues really well.

And the New York issues are very similar to the New Jersey issues. But I didn't know the Caribbean. So that was exciting. So what you do is if you feel like you're qualified and you want to work really hard, you just throw your hat in the ring. And I'm an environmental advocate. I have been for the last 40 years. But right before I went to EPA, I served as deputy secretary for the environment in the

New York governor's office. And the Obama administration liked having people who had some state government experience. So a lot of very capable people threw their hat in the ring. I feel very fortunate. It was, you know, the public service opportunity of a lifetime. I was the longest serving regional administrator in EPA Region 2 because, meaning they're there for their entire careers. And then the political appointees pop in and out whenever there's a new president. So you know when your last day on the job is. It's when the president leaves, you leave. Okay.

All right. Got it. And so what do you say to folks that say, oh, listen, EPA, it's a bureaucratic bullshit. They don't really get stuff done. They're good, feel good people that want to make a difference. But there's, you know, there's too much power on the other side. And they just they're just tripping over their own feet and they don't have any teeth. They can't get something done.

That's partially true. I mean, EPA is very slow. That's partially true. Oh, my God. Okay. All right. EPA is very slow and very cautious. So when I decided to work on the immense problem of plastic pollution, I decided to do it outside of government. The regulatory agencies are never the tip of the spear on important issues. And one reason why EPA is so slow and so cautious is one, they're underfunded. And two, they are sued by private industry more

than any other agency. So you have someone like me who shows up saying, hey, we've got to get all the lighting in public schools that contain PCBs out of the schools, which is something I worked on in the New York City public school system. And inevitably, you have responsible but cautious lawyers saying, well, it's not really clear what our authorities are, we have to proceed, you know, really carefully. What if we're challenged? And so, you know, it's a whole different culture than what you have at like a nonprofit advocacy group. But EPA is really important. I mean, I just read an article today that the largest city in Mississippi, the capital of Mississippi, has lost their entire drinking water supply.

150,000 people don't have drinking water today in the city in Mississippi. Now, because of EPA, that's an outlier. That doesn't regularly happen because EPA is on top of drinking water issues. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how

I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life

is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner,

and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order.

That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding Mastery. Is EPA an important agency? Absolutely. Because of EPA, air quality is reduced. Air pollution is down about 70%. However, we haven't tackled climate change effectively. Yeah. Like that's what I was going to ask you about. It's like, so COVID hit the world shut down. We weren't driving for

at least a brief period. We weren't flying a lot. We still are not flying as much, but you know, we're, we're kind of back into it. Did that make, was that like this really amazing experiment where it gave us this interesting reset? Or are we so far gone that not even that helped? No, there's data that shows air quality was dramatically improved during the shutdown. I mean, it's a terrible strategy. We never want a pandemic to improve air quality. But air quality improved, greenhouse gases were reduced, but now

we're slowly moving back and ratcheting up all of the air pollution and greenhouse gas pollution back to where we were pre-COVID. So there was, you know, I mean, I kind of like this, not the pandemic bit, not the sickness and not the unanticipated consequences that come from a global crisis, none of that. But this idea of, let's be bold for a minute and say three weeks. Three weeks where, I don't know, we just paused for three weeks. And I get businesses are tight and I get rent had to be paid. But when there's those forgivenesses on rent and whatever, it's like, God bless it. That felt great for like as a human, like that piece of it.

You know, I'm sure that, is it Miss Nature or Miss Planet or Mrs. Planet? Is she married? I don't know, but we call her Mother. But Mother Nature, I'm sure, was like, God, this is great. So I don't know. I felt like I needed it. And I don't know what your experience was like. Well, tremendous worry. So I agree with all the caveats, but I also felt like being forced to slow down is good for society. It was good for me. But the worry and the anxiety was so overwhelming. And I think if COVID hit when Joe Biden was president, I probably would have had more

optimism that we would have gotten out of it without a million deaths. But I remember early, very early days of COVID when I saw my doctor for just a regular checkup or something. And I said, so how are you doing? You medically know what's coming at us. And he said, I how are you doing? You medically know what's coming at us. And he said, I'm mourning. I'm in mourning for the future because I know what's going to happen. And we are mature enough. We should be able to have public policies that drive down greenhouse gas emissions

without relying on a global pandemic to get us there. Yeah. Okay. Scandinavia has done a nice job. Norway in particular. I was looking at some of the stats that you shared and 92% of the recycling is turned back into bottles. You know, like they're kind of getting the recycling game right. Do we have any shot in the US to get this?

Sure. We do. Well, if we stop relying to get this? Sure. We do. Well, if we stop relying so much on cheap plastics, we do. The problem is the plastic. We can do reusable, refillable. We can source reduce things. There's so much packaging that is layer after layer that we can even just get rid of. And there are a lot of innovative green companies. I just coordinated a conference last week on plastic pollution and

our closing panels were green companies that have eliminated or dramatically reduced their use of plastic. They're doing it because, you know, the heads of these companies feel strongly about this, but also because there's a market. But we also, we have to mainstream this. This shouldn't be like eliminating plastics shouldn't just be for people who can spend a little bit of extra money or have a lot of time to research things on the internet. It has to be like in every community, regardless of income level. What I worry about is organic food industry, for instance. It wasn't long ago, organic food was twice as expensive as as pesticidal food. So I remember when my son was really little,

both my husband and I have always worked for nonprofits. And we had this delightful little baby boy. And he drank a lot of apple juice. And I would get the apple juice at the local food co-op. And one day, my husband is reaching for a glass of apple juice. And I said, Hold on, honey, don't drink that. That's the baby's apple juice. You get to drink the toxic stuff because the organic apple juice was like two or three times more expensive than apple juice made from apples grown with pesticides. So we don't want to be on the plastics issue where we are on the organic food issue, that it's financially out of reach for people. Yeah, there you go. Okay. Again, I don't know how to solve that, but I hear you saying it and I go, yep, that makes sense. And how do you think of all the things that we can do on a day-to-day basis? If somebody wants to take action every day in a small way, what would some of those actions be? Make sure you're registered to vote.

Get other people registered to vote. Talk to friends and family. The midterm election in the U.S. is going to be tight. I think we solve the plastic pollution crisis with a combination of political action and personal action. What I urge people to do personally is look at their own homes, their own places of business. What's your heaviest use of plastic? So like, unless you're, you use a freakish amount of ketchup, don't worry too much about the ketchup bottle. But if you're getting a cup of coffee every day in a plastic cup, let's switch that out. So look at your heaviest use of plastic and see what you can switch. I'm not naming names. I am.

You know what you've done a nice job of, Judith? You haven't made me feel badly about myself. You have a beautiful way about just saying, no, here's some data, and I'm working my life efforts towards making sense of this and helping. But you could do some things, too. And you're going to say saying it's really bad, but you say it like it is, you know, you want you, it's like almost you're, you're forcing me to feel even worse because you're so kind and I'm not having to defend myself. Like, yeah, but yeah, but you know, so your way that you have figured out how to share this information is noted. And I appreciate that a lot. Well, the show's not over yet. I could have you in tears by the end.

Well, yeah, I think you could. I read somewhere that you said that 450 years it takes for one bottle to be broken down. Yeah, it's really serious. You know, it's all the plastic in the world today will outlive you and I. So, you know, we want to be honest with people, but we also need to give people hope. And the way I give people hope is by giving them things to do that make a difference? And, you know, we hear from a lot of people who want to, I'll be like, super honest now, we hear from a lot of people who are very diligent about making sure their kids are not like sucking on plastic pouches for baby food. They're very careful with their own children and their own lives. But then it kind of ends there. And we want to welcome all of those people but we really need people to take political action and I mean in a non-partisan way you know getting informed joining a group making the phone call you're going to make to Senator Dianne Feinstein writing letters to the editor it all makes a difference we're doing it again come

on be my coach will you be my coach again sure so you got the bill number written down right senate 984 yep make a few notes on what you want to say so you're not on the spot i'm on the spot and you're doing the right thing you're calling during daytime hours when her office is open. That's good. Thank you for calling the Washington, D.C. office. I'm Senator Diane Feinstein. Another message. It's open from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Okay, Diane.

We're going to try another time. Now you got me fired up. It's another message. Okay. All right. So let's go back to what we can control. Can you give me a couple of frameworks like aluminum over reusables or reusables over aluminum, paper over plastics or whatever? Can you give a couple of frameworks on how to make decisions as well? It's so easy. Plastic as the last resort. So, you know, if your car has broken down and it's hot and you're at a gas station and you really need water, go ahead and buy that plastic

water bottle. But if you're in your normal day-to-day life, hopefully with a reliable way of getting around or mass transit, and you're at the supermarket, you're going to find you don't have a lot of choice, but anything you can do to avoid plastic should be your framework. And then reusables are the best. And also, you know, if there are products that are not overpackaged, Beyond Plastics is doing a grassroots campaign calling on Trader Joe's to stop overpackaging all of their produce, which they promised they would stop doing a couple years ago and they haven't. I like shopping there because of all the organic options that are affordable, but I don't buy most of the produce there because like one or two things are like in plastic tombs. So you'll, you'll know it when you see it. If something is over packaged in plastic, even if you have to go somewhere else, just don't buy it. Come on. Let's call, let's call Trader Joe's now. You got me all fired up. We got to call it. So like, yeah, I'm going to call them as well.

And I love Trader Joe's. I think what they've done is nice. I don't know their business practices, but I wonder what Mr. Joe would say. And I think they're related to the discount store called Aldi's. Aldi's is much better. They have not handed out plastic, any kind of bags at all for many, many years. You have to bring your own bags all the time. No paper bags, nothing. Oh, no paper even. Yeah.

Yeah. No paper, no plastic. They're really fast at the checkout. You got to be alert and you pack your own stuff and they save money that way. Okay. So last thing, how do we, how do one more time go through, like, we find our senators, we find our house of representatives. Tell me one more time. Yeah. If you're in the United States, you have two US senators.

If you're in a state, not if you're in a territory. You have one House member. So Michael, I think I steered you wrong. We should have called your House member. You would have been more likely to get through because the senators represent the entire states and the House members have much tinier districts. So call your two U.S. senators to support the Break Free from Plastic Pollution Act, Senate Bill 984.

Call your one House member, which you can figure out by Googling, and support HR 2238. And Judith's democracy tip is put the phone numbers of your elected representatives right in your phone. I love it. Okay. Awesome. And then let's go check out beyondplastics.org and check out what Judith is doing. And I really appreciate and note that you're not using shame. You're not using guilt.

You're not using frustration. Your tactic is information made available with a call to action of things that you could do if you're not using frustration. Your tactic is information made available with a call to action of things that you could do if you're inspired. And I think that that's probably a big part of why you've been able to create the change that you have created and been included in the rooms that you've been included. And I would imagine that for most of us in the business of business and entrepreneurship and even raising children, that that type of temperance that you have, that ability to stay the course, to be resilient, to have a long-term vision, to have a passion for what you're doing, you are embodying the psychological concept of grit. And I just want to say it's noted. And I think that

there's a reason why that is one of the key characteristics for people that are successful. And so thank you for sharing in an eloquent way, that part of you. My pleasure. This has been fun. Thank you. Yeah. And I love how you say it's political, but not a political issue. Like it's not, I'm just noticing that bit is like, maybe you are, and I'm just missing it, but it's a global issue. It's not just a bad politics at play. Yeah, it really is global. And it's going to take a global solution, but the United States is the top producer of plastics. So we should be the ones working the hardest to solve this. Judah, thank you.

Great to be with you. Thanks, Michael. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode,

you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community,

share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support,

which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.