Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Positivity Through Tough Times, Re-Defining ‘Manhood’, and The Power of Humor | Ask Me Anything Vol. 15 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

Welcome to Volume 15 of Finding Mastery’s Ask Me Anything (AMA) series. In this latest installment, O'Neil Cespedes and I explore the intricate dance between our physical and mental states, especially during times of challenge and change.Key topics covered this week include:The profound connection between our physical and mental health.Strategies for maintaining an optimistic mindset during setbacks.The role of psychological agility in viewing challenges as opportunities for growth.The changing definition of ‘manhood’.Best practices for coaches and teammates in supporting athletes through injury.The transformative power of humor in relieving tension in high-stress situations.Embracing mistakes and overcoming the fear of failure for personal growth and resilience.As always, we are grateful for your questions and insights that continue to drive these meaningful conversations. Your engagement is what makes this series so rich and impactful._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and risk-taking and they can never understand the frontier because they're holding back. They're playing it safe. And that safety that we play in that way, one, never lets another person in. Two, prevents you from understanding what you're fully capable of. Welcome back, or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you,

to explore the topics and questions that you have been wrestling with on your path to becoming. So we're back for AMA 15 with our incredible co-host, O'Neill Cespedes. And we've got a fun one for you today. You hit us up with some great questions. In this episode, we're going to explore how humor can be a powerful tool in high-performing environments, the intimate link between physical pain and emotional wellbeing, the changing definition of manhood, how to practice psychological agility,

navigating the shame of dealing with invisible struggles, setting intentions for the new year. And we're getting to so much more than that as well. So with that, let's jump right into volume 15 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. Dr. Mike. Yeah, yeah. Happy New Year.

I mean, what? How did it happen this fast? We're getting older, that's why. Yeah. You know how I go. Happy New Year to you as well. Hey, let me, well, thank you, first of all, but let me congratulate you. Yeah. USA Today. I go. Happy New Year to you as well. Hey, let me, well, thank you, first of all. But let me congratulate you.

Yeah. USA Today. I know. How about it? Debut number 10. That's big time. You know what? Our community came together.

And so what a treat, what a surprise. You know, like I had this thought that there was something happening with the concepts in the book. Yeah. And it was private. And then, you know, kind of ship it and see if there's a little bit of traction. And I knew our community was going to show up. The Fondue Mastery community was going to show up and they did. And then it just one level out, another level out.

And all of a sudden, before you know it, like number 10 on the USA Today. That was such a surprise. Well deserved. Yeah, so yeah, stoked. It's been really fun, so thank you. Of course, of course. So, you know, I know you're becoming big time now.

So I just want to be your security. I want to be like, I want to be the guy that's like, Dr. Mike can't talk right now. We're going to the clubs and be like, hey, hey, hey, we're with Dr. Mike. You let us in? Oh my God. Yeah, I don't think that that card comes with the USA Today.

No, I don't think that card came. All right. Yeah, the card comes in the mail, right? I mean, I think so. Yeah, right. Yeah, I just didn't get that one. Okay, well, all right. How do you celebrate New Year, New You?

Like, what do you think about that? I i mean i don't really subscribe to it yeah you know i think it's cliche yeah but then i'm the person who always goes left when people go right so maybe i'm just doing that just for the hell of it i don't know well i do like the science that um when you can find moments to start or restart you know like i that bit of research. A Monday is a way to start new. And a Wednesday could be a way to start new as well. Beginning of whatever, turning over a new leaf, wherever you can find those moments. I do like that ability to recalibrate, to reset. And it can be daily, weekly. It annually of course i'm not the research is very clear that resolutions don't hold and so i'm you're not going to hear me talking about

resolutions that that's not gonna you know what um i think i'm lying to you oh you've got resolutions i don't i don't not not outright i don't say it but i got up this morning and i said to myself man i need to start mobilizing in the morning i got up like at five something this morning because i hurt my back years ago doing jujitsu and ever since i hurt my back it's killed a lot of my flexibility so i got up this morning and i was mobilizing and well let me back up when i hurt my back i'd fallen into a depression because the next day after training, I couldn't get out of bed to use the bathroom. I literally had to drag myself out of bed.

And there was a time before that that I just had made the decision, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm gonna use the bathroom in the bed. I can't move. It was that bad. And then eventually I just fought through the pain and dragged myself to the bathroom.

But I fell into a slight little depression. And then eventually I just fought through the pain and dragged myself to the bathroom. But I fell into a slight little depression. And then it dawned on me after that, as my back started healing up. So is that the macho way of saying I was really down? I mean, you know, yeah, you're right. I was kind of down. I wasn't depressed.

Okay, okay. So depression, mild, moderate, or severe? Come on, man, mild. I have to mic. Come on, man, it's mild. Plus it's about as far as it'll go. I was like, it's hurt. So technically, mild, moderate, or severe

are the ways that a classically trained person would think about when someone says the word depression. Now, if you felt just like you were, I don't know, like, ah, ah, you know, like, but that's like a more mild. And if you're like in that moderate severe, it's like severe is like, man, something's not right now. And like, I'm a little scared about how down I am and it's dark in here and I can't shake it. It's not like I'm going to this place. I'm just saturated. And it feels like I'm in quicksand and I'm trying to get out of it, but I just can't. And man, there's this hollow feeling

and there's an emptiness and like, I feel hopeless. I think I kind of suck at life. I think you suck too. I think it's always going to suck. And I think they suck. Like, what are we doing? You know, so it's like severe in that way. And then moderate is somewhere in between the two. And so have you had an episode before of clinical depression? What does it mean when you cry? Oh, that's normal.

Okay. I was crying. I had crying depression. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Wait, crying is normal. Okay. Well, yeah. I was crying. I had crying depression. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, like crying is normal. Okay. Well, yeah, I was crying. I can't, I can't move. I just sucks not being able to move.

And how long did it last for? Man, you know, when it lasts for a solid three weeks, it was that bad. Like I'd sit down, I'd have sharp pains. Yeah. Well, some people say, oh, it's six months. You know, some people are like, you know, like it was on, like, you kidding me? Like it's been like 18 months. So, so your duration is not that long, three, three weeks, but it was, but, and it's considered a, um, it wasn't organic depression. It's not like one day you woke up and it's like, whoa, what happened to the light? It was, um, triggered by an injury, right? So that's actually an important part to note.

During the injury cycle, people can have a dysregulation neurochemically and neuroelectrically that affects mood. And so that can happen just from the injury because you're now literally in a different body. Your chemistry is literally different in your brain. And then it can trigger, that in and of itself can be um a trigger for let's call it a uh an appropriate response to to something that

is like you're wrestling with physical pain so physical pain emotional pain happen in the same centers of the brain so when you have physical pain it's actually it's nearly indistinguishable from an fmri perspective of whether you're in emotional pain or physical pain. Interesting enough, the way that we experience it. Yeah. So, so this onset was triggered by an external event, an injury that's important to note, and it lasted three weeks. And then of that three weeks, would you say mild, moderate or severe? I would say moderate. Yeah. So so there you go how'd you work through it i mean i i endured i mean i just endured i um decided it's a good word for depression really yeah that's a good word yeah did you reach out did you mobilize your external resources did

you i mean i went to a pt if that's what you mean. Yeah. That's one way. But like, did you tell people that like, hey, it's, I'm not like feeling like lonely and kind of overwhelmed and like, I feel just sad in a new kind of way. No, no, I did not do that, Dr. Mike. I just said, my back is messed up. I said, my back hurts. And I went to a PT.

Now that you put it the way you put it, makes me feel like maybe I was avoiding some things. Yeah, and the physical health rehabilitation world is better now. And so I would hope that if you went in, if you had just like an injury, a physical injury, and you went in and like, hey, man, this thing happened, and they would go okay

good how you doing psychologically too and it just give you a window to say yeah I'm actually not great you know and and that gives you a window to have at least one other person that you've shared with yeah and then now you've got a professional that can say hey you know what I think I think it'd be great while you're doing this physical training like let's get some of this mental mental emotional training going as well okay back up so because my pt didn't ask me any of that um i mean obviously i joked about it like we do right i mean the presence my back hurt yeah you know obviously there's some truth behind that. That's right. Yeah, right. But no, you're saying now that's being explored now. We're better.

The industry is better now at that because hand in hand, like physical, emotional, mental, all of those forms of wellness are so intimately tied. When one is wobbling, the other two are definitely are impacted yeah and so like go back to the the that phase that time you you're literally in a different body okay when you're in acute injury and so the neurochemistry neuroelectricity is impacted which can change and have radical impact on your mood and your sense of emotional wellbeing. And let's say, let's say that it triggered a whole cascade of thoughts like, wait, who am I without this physical prowess sense of self? And am I going to be able to go after my dreams of, you know, a jujitsu world championship one day? Or like,

how are people going gonna see me? Like it can go in other directions too. And so that's the psychological bit as well. You know what? Damn, that's exactly how I felt. And it made me question, who am I without my physicality? And I need to be more than my physicality. Two things were going on, that and-

So that's a little bit of a wake-up yeah a huge wake-up that's a bit like so so post-traumatic you are not in ptsd it sounds like phase but like when we go through traumatic mini big whatever traumatic experiences um we can come through them significantly better we have those wake wake up moments like, wait, hold on. There's more to me. I've been holding on to this physical part of me and there's, wait, this is kind of scary. No, no, no, no, no. Shut that shit down. No, no, no, no. Like I just got to get better. Or wait, what is this other part of me? Like, let me explore this emotional bit. Let me explore the future in a more dynamic way than just being seen a certain way. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors.

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Man, you know, that's so crazy because when I watch, when I watch IG influencers and, you know, And now back to the conversation. a philosopher or whatnot, but they're lifting weights at the same time. I kind of laugh inside, because I'm like, man, you know, if you're only defined, I'm not saying that they're defined by this, but if you're only defined by your physicality, whether you can fight really well, or whether you're extra muscular or whatever, and you lose that, that's taken away from you.

You can fall into a deep, insane depression, feel like you're a prisoner in your own body. A thousand percent. This is why it's so important. We are not what we do. And if we find ourselves in a performance-based identity, if we find ourselves in a way that we've identified with what we do, how well we do that, especially relative to other people, that's called a

performance-based identity. And our world is obsessed with performance. We live, especially in the West, we live in an obsession about how well you do, right? And how well you do it relative to other people. It makes perfect sense that so many of us have built a performance-based identity. And that can get you really good at something. Because every time you go show your thing, you're just not doing the thing that you love to do. You're actually trying to demonstrate and recalibrate your sense of worth. Because my identity is tied to how well I do what I do. And I'm going to show you how good I am. Boy, don't,

don't stumble now because there's so much on the line. Do you, do you relate to that? 1,000%. Yeah. 1,000%. And even now that I'm fully aware of it through that, you know, that injury, I try to, you know, become a more learned individual, right? Read more, pay attention to the world more, be in tune, look at nature, this, that, and the other. But that thing is still there where it's like-

Oh, you gotta do, yeah, we all need to do real work on that. And so these wake up moments like with an injury, we're left with our own self in bed you know because we can't be physically mobile and we're left with our own devices of our own mind man sometimes we got to wrestle with dragons that are feel bigger and stronger and are a bit haunting and scary and when we go into that den and when we're quiet we can't have that physical prowess that we normally might have and you're left with your own exploratory mechanisms of like who you are that stuff is

that's incredible and so if you can drill down to the question who am i yeah and bang on that question you know who really am i and explore it and get quiet with it write it or meditate about and then ask yourself like again no who who am i really and keep going and keep going that's for me it's been a 25 year question 25 years i've asked that question yeah and um it's still hard to put in words yeah it's funny's why when I was a kid, my mom used to say that to me all the time. Go sit in a room and just think about who you are in your life all the time. But I thought she was just punishing me.

You didn't know the wisdom. I didn't know the wisdom. Yeah. But that's, yeah. Let me ask you one more thing. Why didn't, what is happening, where are you now relative to the early part of your life when you had the injury that you didn't want to happening where are you now relative to the you know early part of your life when you had the injury that you didn't want to talk about it like can we can we talk about the

shame of like like dealing with something that is invisible and hard i think the world has imposed this thing on us that makes us feel, gosh, weaker for expressing weakness, right? And you don't want to come across as a burden to anyone. You don't want to come across as weak to anyone. And let's just be honest. People are more attracted to strong people that can endure things, people that can carry the world on their shoulders. And just, you know, you look at them and you want to follow them

and you want to be that person, right? You want to be that person. So when weakness hits you, when you feel beat, when you feel less than, when you feel like crying, when you feel like you're in a dark place, you want to mask it. I know for myself, I've, you know, I've place you want to mask it i know for myself i've you know i'm i've always been able to no matter what i'm i was just saying this to somebody the

other day you'll never know i was arguing with someone and i was like man you'll never know when i'm going through something because i don't throw my problems on people because i was upset with them for going through what they were going through and and taking it out on me and i was like see that's different between me and you. I was using it as a weapon. See, if I have an issue, you'll never know about it. I'll just carry it. I'll just deal with it on my own. If I have to lock myself in the closet,

sort through it, cry, scream, whatever, and I'm gonna come out, and I'm gonna have this mask of a happy face on. And the strange thing is after I said that to them, and I felt like I was winning the conversation, I thought to myself, like, I could be poisoning myself. Yeah, right. Right? Yeah.

And how do you view vulnerability relative to the concept of strength? Theatrically, I think vulnerability is beautiful. I wanna see it on film. Yeah. I wanna see it on the screen. I wanna see someone cry. I wanna see their flaws. Do you want your partner to be able

to go to that place with you? They can, but I don't know if I want to do that. Realistically, that's why I use theatrical. Realistically, I don't want you, I'm still bowing with it, you know? I want to do it, but I'm just like, gosh, well, how are you going to look at me? Do you think I'm, you know?

I recognize that. I recognize that in me and i think that's what we all want is we want our partner to be vulnerable we want others around us to like show their real self so we know how to trust them so that we can be in service of helping them it gives us a job too, right? It's a very selfish way to go through life actually is to not give yourself fully to another person is a very self-serving mechanism. I'm not gonna be vulnerable because then that's what risk is is I'm risking something, right? Like if your big wallet that you carry around and you put,

you know, a stack of 10,000 on the table and you're like, whatever. And then I put 10,000, I'm like, Hey man, are you going to be okay with my money now? Right. So, okay. So it's right. If I'm risking something, then there's vulnerability required. We love the risk takers. We love the ones that are like going for it and on the edge and on the frontier and pushing forward and being about it. We celebrate the brave, don't we? But what's required for bravery is risk-taking

and what's required for risk-taking is vulnerability. So if you don't know, I'm speaking now to you in a way that was way too aggressive. I thought I was going to flip the table over. No, I was speaking like pejoratively in this way that was way too aggressive. I thought I was going to flip the table over. No, I was speaking like pejoratively in this way. Like if a person doesn't know how to be vulnerable with something,

they can never understand bravery and risk-taking and they can never understand the frontier because they're holding back. They're playing it safe. And that safety that we play in that way, one, never lets another person in to prevent you from understanding what you're fully capable of and so the model is flipping i don't know if you can feel it oh yeah you can feel it oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah it's really cool man like there's a

definitely there's a there's a like a cadre of you know, you included in this that are, and it's not just a small cadre. It's like a large force of people that are saying, I'm not fucking doing it this way anymore. I'm not propping up this shiny armor and every day waxing it and making sure this armor that's heavy to operate, that if I don't rust it properly and if I don't shine it properly, it's going to, it's not going to work right. And I'm, I'm shining and I'm, I'm putting the, I'm sorry, resting, I'm putting the oil in it and I'm, I'm shining it up every day. So it looks good and amazing. And it's, man, I'm spending so much time on the armor. Like I'd rather walk around in moccasins and like, like be like, Hey, look, this is it now yeah and we can argue and i'm gonna be here in the argument and we can also cry and i'm gonna be here too i want to know your pain and i

want you to know mine and i i'm going to carry your pain and i hope you'll carry mine and like let's go shout at the moon together and get wild. You know, like let's go somewhere together. And so that there's a, the new generation, this new calling for what it means to be a man is happening. Yeah. Yeah. And there's strength in it now. This is not like, there's also another kind of ringing the bell that people are saying right now.

Tell me if you, if you're finding this, like we're losing manhood, we're losing our way. Like, you know, the man of the year is actually a woman. And like, we've lost what it means to be a man. I think there is some of that as well. 1,000%. I think there is some of that as well. And I also think that it's creating space for people that value being about it walking the talk and talking the

walk and 100 to your to your idea or a thousand percent like being the best version of you and it's not gonna happen without the requisite understanding on how to live in the strength of vulnerability. You know, it's funny that you brought up that second part because I'm feeling that change and what it is. I'm happy about it because I feel like I have one foot in the old school way and one foot in the new school way. And initially, you know, a friend of mine asked me, he's like, why'd you get into like jujitsu

and fighting and all these things? And I's like, why'd you get into like jujitsu and fighting and all these things? And I was like, to be honest with you, one part because I love martial arts and anime and I thought those things were cool, but the second most important part was so I could give myself permission to be me. To paint my nails, to dress the way I wanna dress.

So you don't have to be afraid of being punked by another man yeah and you could you could square up and say hey you can say whatever you want i could i could put physical harm into your life dr mike you have no idea how many times i've said that i'm like i beat your ass though yeah i wear a dress but i beat your ass yeah right yeah and it made me feel so good man i feel really nervous about the way I made fun of your blue. Thank you for giving me a pass. No, because you've caught me in that transitionary period.

Because now I even realized that that was toxic. Transitioning, huh? Yeah, that was toxic. Even creating that, it served its purpose. That thing that I created served its purpose. And now I'm realizing now it's a detriment to me man we need you to stand up to be 100 the person that you want to be to be that person we men and women need you literally i'm now i'm speaking right to you need you to be authentic and to do that fight

is a radical fight being a man is not about just propping up a certain image that is so old and tired and because you poke that man that's just been propping up for a long time there's not a whole lot inside i'm not getting in a foxhole with that dude i don't care what you look like how strong you look. If you get poked and all you have is anger, come on. That's true. That's all you have. Come on.

You want to be in a foxhole with a one-dimensional person that's going to turn anger when he gets stressed in the foxhole? No, man. That's tired. Very tired. Yeah. I'm excited for 2024 in that's tired. Very tired. Yeah. I'm excited for like 2024 in that way.

I am too. I really am too. Yeah. I believe this young generation is really leading the charge. I'm all for it. Yes. And, you know, and so I'm stoked, man. Like 2024, I'm not, I don't make a resolution, but what I do is I set an intention for the

year, the year of. Yeah. a resolution but what i do is i set an intention for the year the year of yeah and so it's just a pretty radical way to think about like last year was the year of play and so my like i like my thing was like more like a panda okay i'm gonna i'm gonna need you to explain that to me like i just want to play more okay that was last year i just want to play more yeah and i think i did a really good job you know like it doesn't mean that i didn't get stressed and like all that did happen and i felt my edges and but i just playing and so the panda like when i think of like who plays in the wild yeah like i don't know no one really screws with the panda they're so big and strong and powerful they just roll around have fun do whatever they want yeah you know like they don't have any predators yeah

and so because that this is like your model right like they don't have predators because they're so badass yeah that they can just play well pandas are badass oh yeah I didn't know that see the size of the panda uh-huh they don't they don't give a rats they'll roll around do whatever they want to do yeah and like they play and have fun and? They don't give a rats. They'll roll around, do whatever they want to do. And like they play and have fun. And because they don't have natural predators. I love that. I love that analogy. I'm going to take that.

Oh, so you might be the year of play. You don't have to co-sign yet. No, no, no. I like that. I had no idea. I didn't know pandas didn't have predators and they just do what they want. Maybe I made some of this up. Let's double check it.

But I think it's right. Like I used it. I used it really well. People are gonna be Googling, does a panda have predators? Yeah, I don't think so. But like, if you search up like what a panda represents, I was so inspired by that.

Like I needed that. And so I made a fundamental commitment. This is what the year of is about. A fundamental commitment that my intention for this year is to find ways that I can be more like a panda. I can play more, be more playful in even the seriousness of the things that I'm engaged in. I love that. That's going to be mine.

I love that. Yeah, how about it? Yeah, that's going to be my intention. If we got a year's end, and so this is a way to kind of think backwards on it, the intention is year of play. And we got to December next year, December 2024. I said, how'd you do? Like, how would you know that you are successful

with the year of play, for example? How would I know? I guess I would have to do a recount of like how many times I really, really got stressed, right? How many times I really, really let things overwhelm me i mean and i'm good at that because i remember yeah and then it'd be and and then the way to make that true is like daily yeah right like every day when you think like you're you know pulling the sheets over at the end of the day like how did i play or was i like so serious that i was more like

some other animal that like is always serious like a hyena feels very serious right yeah a wolf you know feels very serious um that's fine no problems you know but like was that true my intention to play and so like if you can get it daily and you just had a check mark like yeah i was a i was a bit of a panda today badass playing and like you know what? We had a great time and we got some stuff done. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple of sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding mastery is brought to you by momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family,

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. I love that. I'm going to adopt that because I think that's amazing. Because I don't think life was made to be so serious.

Dr. Mike, look, I'm not going to lie to you. I could talk about this with you all day. I really could. I want to, but I got to get into these questions because there's some juicy questions in here. All right. So I want you to hear this first one from my boy, Alex. What's up, Alex? How do I know to trust a feeling versus ignore it because it's just my mind jumping to a conclusion? Okay. So that question is really about intuition. Intuition is, I think it's complicated. And I'll tell you why I think it's complicated. Let me just talk about myself more than I talk about science here for a minute. is that when I'm in a setting and something's happening, I'll use, so for 18 years, I built this program called Late Night Sports, a nonprofit program.

And it was high-level basketball, not professional, for high school and college age kids in LA. And it was intense. It was an intense environment. It's only Saturday nights from eight till midnight, one in the morning. We only had three fights over 18 years. And you know, LA basketball, that's like, how'd you do that? It was actually the study of my dissertation of the program that we built. And so there's a whole methodology behind it.

All that being said is every night you would know this i think you would know this i got really good at tuning to is a fight about to break out yeah there there is a unspoken energy that happens and it's all micro expressions. It's not even demonstrative like, oh, he balled up his fist. It was not that. It's just this slight little micro expression chippiness that's in the air.

And everybody that's in that environment paying attention knows, uh-oh, like it's hot now. And we can cross this line quickly. So I developed this intuition about like the, when there was about to be physical violence in an environment. So that was tuned and developed over time. And I don't feel like that's, I've lost it, even though I haven't been around that program for a minute. That's a good example of listening to intuition. Okay. And, and I'll explain how the science of that I think works in a minute.

The other thing on the intuition is like, when you feel you have a spidey sense that somebody's lying, or you have this feeling that, I don't know, just somebody is not like trustworthy or, or you're not sure if you should say the honest, you know, give yourself to this person. You've got some sort of intuition that something's not quite right. Do you listen to it? Is it right? Or are you just playing a game to protect yourself? Is this old scar tissue that's protecting you?

Or is it real time, honest feedback that is accurate? It's hard to discern that. real time, honest feedback that is accurate. It's hard to discern that. Am I being in a protective way or am I really tuned to what's actually happening right now and this is not safe? So people will throw around trust your intuition. Well, my intuition has taught me to not trust people. I have to second click to see if that's true or not. And so I don't come into environments where I'm like, whatever you say, like I want to, I want to chin check it a

little bit. So what is my intuition? My intuition says, maybe don't believe. Cause I had to fit, I had to navigate truth, you know, in an interesting way growing up. So should I listen to my intuition or should I be more abundant? Should I trust more? And I think this is really tricky because we are working in a non-conscious way so often. There's tons of information that's coming through and it's being pushed and filtered through our non-conscious system below conscious detection. And Daniel Kahneman, now I'll get into some of the science. Daniel Kahneman did a really nice job of talking about two systems that we have, system one

and system two. Thinking fast and slow is kind of the groundbreaking work that he had. So system one is the intuitive and it's fast and information's coming in, bang, bang, bang. And you're always gating out, am I safe? Am I safe? Are we okay? Are we okay? And then system two is slower and it relies on cognitive processing. So if you think about it in this way, and I'm going to mix a couple bits of information, top-down processing takes longer. Let me think about this. Right now I'm up in the conscious brain and it just happens a bit slower than the fast information that's coming in below detectable awareness. So there's two roads that information are coming in.

There's the high road, which is the thinking brain, and the low road, which is am I safe? And it's below awareness. And that's going right into the emotional fight-flight protection mechanisms. So without thinking, if you said something or moved in a certain way just enough, I would animate all of the readiness to fight you, more like run from you. And that happens without awareness. Bang, it just happens. My body is turned on and it's to protect me. So intuition is working non-consciously below the level. And we sensory mechanisms to say pay attention is what I'm getting to.

So we feel if we're a sensitive instrument, we can feel when our non-conscious, below detectable thought, we are getting information whether we're safe, whether this is okay or not okay. Should we trust that? Yeah, but if you've been traumatized, and we all have at some level, small T or big T, then you have to do real work to know if that low road, below conscious awareness information that's coming through is showing up accurately for this moment or it's showing up, it's residue from early trauma and it's carry forward. You have to do real work to understand how to trust your intuition. Otherwise, you're carrying around protective mechanisms that served you well coming through

some trauma but might not be serving you well now. So long way of saying, you got to do work. You got to do real work to know what your intuition actually is. And when it's just there to protect you from a former trauma and the more sensitive of an instrument you become, the better you are at listening to the feelings that are coming from your body. And it's one of the things, and I'm using that word feelings very specifically, it's one of the really amazing components of being a human is that we have feelings. We have ways that we're interpreting our external world and our internal sense of safety. And if we are muted because of drugs, of alcohol, of flipping through numbness and social, dumb conversations, dumb music,

dumb TV, if we're muted from any of the things that numb us and dumb us, then we lose the ability to be highly sensitive, radical antenna that this human instrument is. And I know what both sides of this feel like. And so there's an aliveness that comes when you tune your instrument to know how to work with feelings, to know how to work with intuition. And that intuition is not just carry over residue, sloppily built in, protecting mechanisms from years before. And so it does require some vulnerability to work at this level. And I've given you a lot here. I know I went probably way too deep in this conversation.

No, no, no. Yeah. You've brought some questions up. So that non-conscious, that low road, your gut, and correct me if I'm wrong here, your gut, so to speak. Does that mean that old cliche saying of trust your gut is not so accurate that you have to learn to trust your gut you have to train to trust your gut rather than the high road that that information that comes up top the thinking information because it sounds like you you you just can't trust your gut from what you say like you have to be trained or you have to train be trained to trust that gut that non-conscious

information that's coming in. Yeah, it's rooted in survival. That's what we're trying to, that's why this mechanism we believe, Kahneman and others believe, Antonio Damasio has done a ton of real rich work here, is that we believe it's rooted mostly in survival. If you don't have it,

life is pretty, I don't think life is, i don't think life is i don't think the world is a safe world you know it's i think it's hostile yeah i think it's relatively um it's dangerous and so if you don't have mechanisms but but i feel safe in it in that interesting mix yeah very interesting mix yeah very interesting because i was about to agree with you and say i don't feel like it's a safe world either. What makes you feel safe? Well, because I know how to listen well to this radical instrument of my,

my physical body. And then, and then I have invested for years in a, in a sophisticated way, how to use my thoughts, how to be aware of my thoughts to navigate in alignment with my core values towards the purpose that matters most to me with people that are part of the community that I want to be in. So it's values, it's people, and it's working in a hostile, rugged, unsafe environment with purpose towards the future that I'm working to co-create.

And when you have those abilities in place, and listen, I get chin checked all the time too. When you go to the frontier, you'll find out you don't have it all together. If you play it safe in whatever mechanism that you're going to live in, the safety of your couch, let's be ridiculous for a moment. You don't really ever know where the gaps are in exploring your potential. So if you're going to get out in the wild in the frontier and you don't have skills for that environment or partners that have the skills that make compensate for the ones you don't have yet, then it gets really tricky. So we can all be better as an instrument.

And that's where I think the real investment is, is invest in this radical instrument that is lying dormant for you, for many of us. Meditation, writing writing conversations with people of wisdom right invest in your psychology study yourself know how to work with your thoughts and emotions and feelings match them with a craft and then go to the frontier with values with purpose with your people gotcha uh next question this is actually something I actually do a lot. I'm curious about the use of humor as a mental skill in high stress situations or after a mistake. Humor's great.

It does so much. And knowing and being sophisticated, not with like being a sophisticated humorist or like a comedian, I'm not saying that, but knowing how to use humor is, I think it's one of the critical skills for high performing, high stress, even consequential environments is it like, and I use the word critical because there's a skill to it. And so humor applied at the wrong time, it's no good. It doesn't work. You get your little, you get your team or your people that look at you like, hey man, get with it. But you use humor in just the right way. And it changes the entire thing. It's like stress reduction happens. There's a whole cascade. It gets people to be fully focused in the present moment in a different way. There's an exhale.

So there's an exhale that takes place. It changes the way that, you know, our heart is functioning, our body tension. Like it's amazing. It takes levity out of a unnecessarily tight situation. Like it's really good. And I've seen so much of like great, great working teams. They have one or two people that are so great. And you hear it's like, oh man, you just know how to say the right thing.

It's right. That's perfect. Oh, I needed that. That's great. And so humor is wonderful. It can be also a defense mechanism. So it can keep people from going deep. And so you'll see it when folks were like, as soon as you'll say something and you use it well here in this way, there it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Which is like your laugh is awesome and infectious and the humor can keep a safety mechanism to check. It's a way of saying like, am I actually okay? Do I have permission to take a little further but i'm going to hide behind the humor for a little bit to see to just have a

little bit of a safety mechanism yeah yeah right you know that's 1000 yeah right yeah and so you'll see it when i'm working with an athlete or whatever and and like um i'll say something to see if they'll open the door. And if they laugh and smile, and it's a mechanism to say, basically, I can't go to another place because I'm going to fall into a thousand pieces. I'm afraid to go there. And I'll say like, oh, your first response is to laugh about that, huh? And they'll be like, yeah. You actually say that? Yeah. and they'll be like yeah um you actually say that yeah it's like like you know like if someone's almost out of place laughing yeah oh your first response is to laugh and i won't say it without

with judgment or critique but i'll just say it yeah and um and that that's another opportunity for them to walk through the door or not and they go yeah i always do that man or they'll say yeah i mean that's just funny okay we'll come back to this some other time no problem you know right so but humor is like it is so good and i i love it i i'm not a funny person but i really value um when somebody can just come in and like, and call the truth in a fun way. And it just levels everyone down. And there's, you know, it creates this bonding between people like it's just great. And sometimes it's really dark humor, you know, in, in consequential environments that like you think about some of the special operators that you know,

and they'll say some stuff to each other in that if it was ever repeated and they're rolling, guts hurting, laughing. And if it was ever repeated out of context, people think it was like, that's terrible. But in that moment, if you were there, you'd be like, no, like you don't understand. Like I just love every part of it. And it's a reframing of a situation that brings truth and levity and can poke right at the center of something in a way that gives permission for people to let loose on it or let go of it or just see it just slightly differently. And it's just, I have such high regard for that. And yes, there is a great place in high-performing environments for people to bring humor into it. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new

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And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. You said you use it, I mean, you can use it for bonding. I usually start off using it for bonding to you know lower people's walls disarm them and whatnot and then i use it as a defense mechanism when i don't want to discuss things that are uncomfortable or i want to make the world seem a little more simple simpler than it is rather than go into that dark place. Interestingly enough, I've been told I go too far, right?

I've been told I go too far. Most comedians, good ones, they know that. Do you know the line? Nah. No, you don't know? You don't know? You made me rephrase that. Nah, I'm not rephrasing it.

I don't know the line, but I only don't know the line because I'll let you set the line but i only don't know the line because i'll let you set the line so if you say something about me or you joke about something then you are giving me permission to do the same i say yeah right yeah right and that's where i always in the past have fallen into trouble because Cause they'll be like, oh yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were, you know, I thought we were going there.

Well, I thought we could go there. Do you, do you, have you studied the art? I mean, yes. Improvisationally, yes. Yeah. But as far as like formally, no. Well, yeah, that is formally. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, so there's this feeling that i have that uh like if another psychologist and i were to spar and we're gonna use humor and it's kind of like i've got a handful of really good friends that are sports psychs and we go at it and it's great and i'm not i'm not afraid to do that with them. We know our lines and as soon as somebody responds with like, we all just pile on and it's the funniest moment. Like, ah, button found. And everyone's like, okay, okay.

So it's awesome. But to spar with a comedian scares me. I think they're better at psychology than, than we give them any credit for. I agree. I think, and they, the wit and the way to turn something and reframe it in the most clever,

honest biting. We had a comedian on Michael Rosenbaum and like the way that he would just fire. I was like always on guard. Like, is he, is he going to take me to a place that like, I feel completely naked, you know? Like, and I just got the highest regard for comedians.

And so. Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting because I often just let you open the door. Cause I, maybe I'm just thinking too highly of myself when I say this, I don't think I have a line. I don't think I have a line. You can say anything about me. I mean anything, you know, and I'll take it.

But when you do that, I'm like, you just gotta be prepared, cause I'm coming back. And I have found in my life, and I'm sure I'll meet my match, but I have found in my life that a lot of the people I interact with don't have,

they have a line that's a little, you know, it's a little shallower, a little shallower. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I've been reprimanded for going too far.

I'm like, Oh man, I thought, Hey, I thought we could go there. Mama jokes are. Nah, I don't care about none of that.

You could talk. My mom could, I mean, no time soon. I'm late forever. My mom could be dead and you can crack a joke on her at the funeral. And I might laugh if it's a funny joke. I probably will laugh, but just be ready for when your mom dies, I will be at that funeral.

So there is a line. Well, no, no, no, it's not a get back line. It's just that it's a, you opened the door for me. So I thought, okay, we're of like minds. Can I just be real? I'm trying to bond with you. Oh, is that what's up? I'm trying to bond with you.

Yeah. If you're a like-minded individual and, you know, we can talk about our dead mamas at the funeral, let's do it, bro. You know? It takes risks now. Big risks. It takes risks now.

Big risks. And so if you've got, it's a real place on a team. And so if you've got some humor chops and you're on a high performing team, like step into that a little bit, but you can lose a team quickly too. That's the risk. Yeah. That they, when they, when you are off timed or you've taken it too far or it's too often, your team will let you know, like, Hey man, like shut up.

I should be 20 minutes. Right. Yeah. Right. Or, and you know, you got a problem when they just roll their eyes and don't say anything and confront you that if you're in that vacuum and you're missing the cues is it it could be an early sign you know early exit do you have any moments where you know you've you've noticed the power of humor in your own life? Gosh, yeah.

So many, I mean, wow. This is gonna sound like a really cliche answer, but every moment is like that probably. So to pick one is just, I'm crack, I'm not serious ever. And I know I'm'm revealing a major flaw. No, like, do you feel pressure? Yeah, immense. So it's interesting because one of the things that humor does and can do is that, I mentioned earlier, that it can pull you into the present moment in a different kind of way.

And so pressure is this, it's this tightening up. It's like you're getting boxed in. It's this squeezing of yourself. It comes from within. It's the way that you're framing a situation and your body's tightening up and your thinking is tightening up. It's as if you need to think or do faster,

more accurately than you think that you're capable of doing. So there's a tension in the way that your mind and body are experiencing a present moment. And so when that takes place and somebody cracks a joke, it's almost like it just puts air into this box and it's like,, oh, what was I just doing? And so that's where the people in locker rooms that have just something, bang, quick wit. And it just decompresses everything by giving life into a moment by seeing it differently. That's one of the reasons I think it's so critical for high performing environments. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely attracted to people that have that ability

because you, you make me feel like, okay, everything is going to be all right. Yeah. Right. What was that serious for? Yeah. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. A thousand percent. People ask me all the time, like, what do you see in a team like during warm ups? Like, what are you looking at? I can't tell if a team's ready or not. That's like, we're not there in sophistication of reading body language across big teams. Like we can get a felt sense,

but it's, I don't know how accurate it is. Maybe I'm a little bit more accurate because I pay more attention to that stuff than a technical coach could, you know? But what, one of the things that I am looking for is kind of the eyes are up a little bit and there's coach could, you know, but what, one of the things that I am looking for is kind of the eyes are up a little bit and there's a nod, you know, like, and there's a, there's like a way that they're exuding a knowing that they're going to be able to bring their best. They're going to bring everything they got to the situation. And sometimes there's like a deep focus,

you know, like, but there's a knowing that they're demonstrating that they're going to bring everything to the situation and when somebody is kind of big-eyed in a way that or overly tight though those are the ones that you want to maybe use some humor with because you can't walk up to them and um and and say relax you. You know, that's like the exact wrong thing to ever say to someone who's tight. Like that is like, that'll rebound so quickly. Like one, the narrative of that person is, oh my God, they know, right? And the other is like, I am fine.

And so now you put them in a defensive situation, you know, and so it just doesn't work. So what do you say? What do you? So say somebody is feeling overly tight and they're pressing too hard and they're kind of, the timing is off on something and you can tell it's not smooth, but it's tight.

One, you need a reference point to know what smooth looks like for them. So you gotta be around a lot. And then the other is like, to be able to, you need to have equity in the relationship to have permission to show up and say anything or do anything so there's got to be tons of equity built and um some calibration and permission on what what that person wants in that moment so before i would ever make an intervention like that intervention sounds

so big before i would step into that person's process, I would already have a conversation with them like, hey, what does it look like when you're too tight? Oh, this, that, and the other. When that, if I were to ever notice that, would you want me to step in? Yeah, man. Yeah, that'd be great. Like I just get caught myself and I don't know what to do and da, da, da. Like that would be awesome.

Okay. Like, would you want me to say this or that or do this or that? Oh, none of those, this. Oh, gotcha. So now it's already like the work has already been done. So if I see someone that's tight based on what they've said tight looks like, and I'm seeing it, they've already given me permission. We've already agreed on a strategy. And then I execute that. And some people are like, look, walk by me and like, just say I'm fucking leaking, you know, and smile. And that was something that a handful of us would do on the Seahawks is like, hip check me, look at me, make it casual and just whisper in my ear. I'll know that you're laughing inside and I'm laughing inside that like, I'm fucking leaking everywhere. You know, like, hey bro, you're leaking. Yeah. Okay. Got it. And so that's one example. Another example is like,

somebody said like, just, just, just look at me. And when I see you, you remind me that I'm capable of so much. Just look at me, you know, like get a moment and look at me and And when I see you, you remind me that I'm capable of so much. Just look at me. You know, like get a moment and look at me and like give me that smile. Okay, cool. Gotcha. Some people say, stay away. Like, I got to just figure that out.

The last thing I want is any type of, but it's usually very subtle things. It's not a sit down in pregame. It's not that. So it's subtle. It's casual. Sometimes it's like, I don't know, say some stupid joke. Like Mike, you got a lot of them. Like just say something stupid. What? What? You want me to say something stupid? Yeah. Like your jokes are terrible. Just tell me a bad joke again. All right. I got you. You know, so it's like, and I'm not marginalizing the psychology of excellence. I'm actually finding out what the right rhythm is to work with people that are uniquely different.

Right? And so how do you like it if you're in a competitive space? Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts

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Man, I'm so glad you asked me that because I want to be given the permission to make as many mistakes as possible. If you let me fuck up as much as possible, I know I'll get it right. I'm tight because I'm afraid of fucking up. Yeah. So you would want somebody in your corners like, this is what I would say to you. I would suggest that we do something like keep pushing, let go, keep trusting. You figure shit out now.

When mistakes happen, you figure out how to adjust. Keep pushing. Now you know the formula. You'd want to see the future and embrace that mistakes are all fine, that you're a problem solver. And that's just good information, that type of thing. Yeah, yeah. Because it's that fear like, oh, fuck, I fucked up.

And then when you let me know I fucked up, and then after you let me know I fucked up, you tell me to fix it. Then I'm like, oh, shit, he saw that I fucked up, and now he's telling me to fix it. What if I fuck up again? Yeah, right. Then it begins to mount. Mm-hmm.

You know? That's really cool. Yeah, that's cool, man. Like, and everyone's got their unique way. You know? Some people want to be called out like,

I've told you a million times. Don't give him your arm. He's great at the triangle. Like, why would you give him your, you'll give him your, you know, some people want that. Yeah.

God damn. Just you saying it, it i'm like who would want that yeah right yelling me i'm running off the math like i'm out of here we're all different yeah everyone's different yeah all right this next question is from tom carroll tom carroll tom carroll the the tom carroll the tom carroll oh what's up, Tom? Hi, Mike, Tom Carroll here. I was a guest on your podcast some time ago, episode 100 of the- Legend, legend. Well, perhaps back in 2018, he said.

It was a very rewarding experience for me. Thank you. Very cool. Okay, Tom had surgical reconstruction of his abductor mechanism, his right hip, performed on June the 26th, and a result of 54 years of high-level surfing. So you have two questions here. One, can you break down how physiology plays into psychology during downtimes away from our regular activities?

Or perhaps vice versa would be more apt. So when we go through, I'm assuming this is relative to the injury cycle. And this is, we talked about it earlier, like with you, is that our physiology and our psychology are intimately tied. So when we think about physiology, you can think about like the electrical and chemical experience that's happening inside the body. It's not that simple. But if you think about that as a way to think about physiology, that in our psychology are the way that we think and we interpret those signals. And so our feelings and emotions, right?

Okay. So how, how does physiology and psychology relate? I'm going to just say that they're intimately connected. That's a very, there's nothing brown groundbreaking about that thought. I do want to speak to the injury process. And when, when you become, when you are an injured athlete that's very different than an athlete with an injury so there's a squaring of identity that is very important here so if you're an injured athlete meaning identify as being an athlete and i'm an injured one. I'm like a lame animal, if you will. That's

a very hard, dark, difficult experience to navigate. If you're an athlete with an injury, so I'm an athlete, which I don't think is the highest order of thinking, but I'm an athlete and I have an injury. So it's like the injury hasn't defined my sense of being. There is a higher level, which is it escapes beyond identity and label. And that higher standard is that I am not, this is an experience that I'm having and I'm going to navigate this too. And it could be labeled hard. Okay. Or it could be labeled just part of my experience. And so when people are able to navigate the experience as if it was something new, a challenge, an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to get

better. When, if my adductors, was it adductor? Yeah. Yeah. My adductor goes down. Okay. I'm going to do all that right rehab. And I'm like this full human, whether I, whether I'm working through an adductor surgery or not, I'm full. So I'm going to read, I'm going to invest in my love life. I might invest in dynamic vision. I might do some actual work to get my vision, right. Cause when I get back out surfing or when I get into whatever, there's just dimensionality. So athletes that go into the training room, think about a football field or a football team or whatever. It doesn't matter. When they go into the locker room, we all know that that can be a very dangerous experience for them emotionally and psychologically.

But the ones that navigate it the best, they're the ones that purpose is big. Identity is not locked into just what you do. And it's more like, hey, I figured things out. And I know that sport is a phase of my life. It's really important. And of course, I want to get better at everything I'm doing. I'm going to get better at working through the process of my recovery. And I'm going to take advantage of this time and up level in other parts of my life that I haven't been watering well. Those are the ones that figure it out now. And then while they're in that training room cycle, they're mobilizing their external social

resources as well. So they don't feel isolated and lonely and separate. They form their own little mini tribe in that setting. So one of the hard places for the other types of identity of self that are more limiting, I'm an injured athlete or an athlete with an injury. And again, those step differences are remarkable. If you can't get past like the identity piece, be an athlete with an injury. And again, those step differences are remarkable. If you can't get past the identity piece, be an athlete with an injury versus an injured athlete. Be very clear. But one of the

dark sides for people is that they see themselves as being an athlete and athleticism is happening out there in practice or on game day. And they don't see that this rehab process is part of the experience and they feel separate. So they're, they're like ostracized and coaches don't like to walk through the training room. They don't, they don't, some coaches do not want an athlete that's got a boot on or a cast on to come to practice because it reminds everybody that you can get hurt. That's so old and bad and dumb. It's just dumb. You know, like get your athlete in the training room. I'm sorry. Get your athlete in the meeting room, have them run, have them run coaching sessions, have them out observing on the field. Now you don't want to put them in harm's way. They can't get out of the way of a play that unfolds you know in a you know it

spills into the in the sidelines or whatever but have them be part of it if you value that person and you value what they're going to contribute when they come back if you don't value the person and you don't value what they're going to contribute that's where that fear-based thing comes in and you want to marginalize them and keep them in the place where injured people are. Forget about it. And so I've seen great coaches that, like at the Seahawks, they would fold them in in dynamic ways as quickly as we possibly could. And it was awesome to see how they would do that. I mean, they did a really nice job at it.

Other clubs I've been part of, not so much. Wow. I want to get to Tom's second question, but I want to just cover that real quick. I've been part of not so much wow i i want to get tom's second question but i want to just cover that real quick i've never heard of it like that that's brilliant athlete with an injury as opposed to uh injured athlete yeah and that whole experience of getting injured as part of being an athlete yeah and using that time to to grow and to develop other skills because i mean i hate to bring things back to jiu-jitsu but in jiu-jitsu use that as an analogy but oftentimes when you get an injury in jiu-jitsu you would uh

develop other aspects of the game that you never paid attention to because you were so good at doing that one thing but now that your knees messed up or your hands messed up or something your neck's a certain type of weight you have to play a certain type of game. And then when you heal up, you realize that, wait a minute, I just developed- Dimension, dimension, dimension. So that's somebody who's able to be agile. So think about flexibility, resilience, and agility. So resilience is, whoa, I just got knocked back. Adversity. I got to figure out how to put my foot in the ground and get back to where I was and maybe take an extra step. That's resilience. I don't think

that that's exactly what we want. That's cool. We need it. Flexibility is like, I'm about to get knocked. I'm down in the splits. You miss me. I'm back up, I'm here. So that's being flexible, okay, cool. Psychological agility is like, oh, you just knocked me now. Like say we're walking like towards each other and you're like, you're gonna knock me off balance, you give me a shoulder check, right? Agility is now that I take that and I can pivot in a a way I can put my foot in the ground, pivot in a way and come through that experience, staying online or just adjacent to where I want to go. And you haven't knocked me back. You haven't stopped my momentum, but I'm agile enough to work and pivot, put my foot in the ground and keep rolling. That's what I'm talking about.

That psychological agility rests on a whole set of psychological principles and practices to see your current experience as an opportunity rather than a threat. And if you don't invest in that deeper work that I'm talking about, then when something happens, you see it as a threat to identity, to self, to future. And that's where we find we're getting knocked back, knocked back. And that's not exactly

the most dynamic way to do it. Agility is where it's at. And it starts with the framing is, whatever I have in my life, do I see it as a threat or an opportunity? And if you can be on that opportunity side, you just become more agile as a human. And that takes practice. And that rests on being able to be confident and calm and optimistic and deeply focused. And it rests on a whole set of psychological skills that you can practice. Just like you practice sets and reps of like mobility work or strength training, you can practice sets and reps of confidence and calm and optimism and, and, and. So, so anyways, I love it, Tom. Come on, Tom. Keep fighting, Tom. Agile, optimistic, opportunity. That's kind of the worth its weight in gold. This was mad informative, man. I'm glad, I'm glad this new year started off like this. I love this. Me too. I mean,

year of psychological agility and Panda and Panda. I'm a psychologically agile Panda. Fuck with me. Yeah. All right, man. I appreciate you. And let's have some fun.

I appreciate you too. Oh my God. That was great. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe

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