Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman on Authenticity, Creativity, and Confidence

Episode Date: June 8, 2017

Scott Barry Kaufman is primarily interested in using solid psychological science to live a creative, fulfilling, and meaningful life. He's earned his research chops -- He received a Ph.D. in cognitive psychology from Yale University, and an M. Phil in experimental psychology from the University of Cambridge. He's the scientific director of the Imagination Institute, and conducts research in the Positive Psychology Center at the University of Pennsylvania. Scott is also an author -- In 2013, he published Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined, which reviewed the latest science of intelligence and also detailed his experiences as a child growing up with a learning disability. In the book, he outlined his Theory of Personal Intelligence, which goes beyond traditional metrics of intelligence (e.g., IQ, standardized tests), and takes into account each person’s unique abilities, passions, personal goals, and developmental trajectory. Scott also has hosts the The Psychology Podcast -- where he and I have had fun conversations about performance in high-stakes environments -- ranging from performance in off-terrain back-country conditions to the vulnerability and intimacy in meaningful relationships. Thanks so much for listening and sharing -- I hope you're also finding value in the Minutes on Mastery podcast (also on iTunes and other players) where we capture (in under 3 minutes) pearls of wisdom from our world-class and forward-thinking guests._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Now, this conversation is with Scott Barry Kaufman. Scott is primarily interested in using solid psychological science to help people in all

walks of life to live a more creative, fulfilling, and meaningful life. Sounds phenomenal to me. And he's earned his research chops. He received his PhD in cognitive psychology from Yale, and he received a master's in philosophy and experimental psychology from Cambridge. And he's the scientific director of the Imagination Institute and conducts research in the Positive Psychology Center at the University of Pennsylvania. Scott is also an author. In 2013, he published Ungifted Intelligence Refined, which reviewed the latest science in intelligence and also detailed his experience as a child growing up with a learning disability.

And in his book, he introduced and outlined a new theory of personal intelligence, which goes beyond traditional metrics of intelligence and some of the standards that we're used to. So it's a phenomenal read if you're into intelligence, if you're into unlocking the gifts that you have within, I think you would enjoy this book. And Scott also is on a similar path about learning and wanting to discover what's on the leading edge. He's also the host of the Psychology Podcast, which can be found on iTunes and other players as well. And on his podcast, he and I have had fun conversations about performance and high stakes environments, ranging from, you know, off terrain back country conditions and extreme conditions to the vulnerability and intimacy required and meaningful relationships to be able to move those forward. And I just want to take a quick moment. I love what this conversation represents because Scott is on it.

He's smart. He's switched on. He's curious. And I want to thank everyone for listening. I want to thank everyone for sharing. And it keeps coming back to me in my own mind, just how much good that we're creating across the world based on these very simple conversations about working to understand and explore the potential that lies within us all. So I want to thank you for that. And I also want to hope that you're finding

value in the minutes on mastery podcast as well. And if you're new to that, check it out on iTunes and we take insights and pearls of wisdom from folks like Scott and condense it down to three minutes. So it's like quick hits, quick little reminders, or maybe even intentions for the day. So that's been a fun little experience as well. Okay. With that, let's jump right into this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman. Okay. As we get going, Scott, on this conversation, there's so much that you and I can focus on. I would love to stick in the lane of creativity. But are there other concepts that you want to explore? I think maybe well-being could be interesting. All right. So then before we get going, give us a sense of your background. And you've got a real rich understanding in the field

of psychology. You're evidence-based. You enjoy science. You've got a crisp point of view about the facts or the things that you know. But before we get into that stuff, take us back to what it was like when you were younger. Brothers, sisters? Sure. None? I was an only child. I had a very overprotective Jewish mother.

I don't know what level of granularity you want here. Yeah, I want it all. I want to get context for how you've come to understand psychology so well. Yeah, sure. When I was growing up in education, actually for the first three years of my life, I was almost deaf. I had a lot of fluid in my ears, and it was very hard for me to hear things in real time. And so I developed a learning disability, actually, an auditory learning disability called central auditory processing disorder. And yeah, I mean, the kids really thought I was dumb. The teachers thought I was really dumb. I thought I was dumb.

Oh, okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Before you go to the butt. Yeah. Okay. So what is that disorder? It's called central auditory processor. What it was is that it made it like I couldn't process auditory input in real time. So I would hear something and then I would have to play it back in my head and then understand what the person said. So it looked like I was slow. Oh, God. Now, how old were you when this was going on? First 10 years of my life or so, I'd say. Because it's kind of like when someone's blind and you give them an operation sometimes to – if it's possible to give an operation so they can see again. They don't see right away. It's not like – you have have to know what are you seeing. So I

went years, first three years where I could barely hear anything with the fluid and then after I got this operation, ear operation, it's not like I immediately understood how to process input. So it took a couple of years. Actually, I repeated third grade um i uh was labeled a slow learner and um was bullied a lot so the bullying was definitely an aspect to this and i you know there's so that that was that was a big part of my my early childhood until actually ninth grade there was a special education i was actually kept in special education until ninth grade and I wasn't college bound at all. And this special ed teacher believed in me. She took me aside.

She actually was covering for the regular teacher and she was just like, you know, why are you here? Like you seem bright to me. I was like, what? I was like, no one has ever said that. And I just – it just totally inspired me to see what I was capable of and I – and man, that set off this big spark, like this big – I was just so inspired to see what I could do. I actually quit special ed overnight and signed up for like every class, advanced, whatever class I could take and I wanted – I was curious what I was capable of achieving. And actually in Angela Duckworth's book on- Wait, wait, wait. Oh, okay. Okay. I'll stop. I'll stop. Oh my God, dude. Okay. So wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah, yeah. Because we're going to get to Angela in a second, but okay.

Sure. Yeah, yeah. You grew up feeling dumb, thinking you were dumb, and having your community think you were dumb. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. And those are the formative years. Oh, absolutely.

My sense of self-concept and self-esteem was like nothing. No competency, no sense of efficacy. I had no identity. Before ninth grade, when I think of myself before ninth grade, my only identity I think of was like special ed kid. But I mean- Ninth grade? Yeah. I was kept in special ed till high school, till first grade in high school, ninth grade. Now, you didn't have a, you had mentioned like for vision surgery. And I know that there are

some surgeries, but I've never heard like for auditory process, not auditory processing, but actual ear canal issues and even brain surgery that can help people hear better. But you didn't have that. It sounds like you had an overnight switch where somebody said something to you and you said, hold on. Well, you know what's funny? When I was researching this book, I wrote a book called Ungifted, which told a lot of the story. And when I was researching that book, I went back to my high school and asked for all the reports and everything. I want to know what was going on. Did I outgrow this disability and they never told my parents. Like, what was up? And what I read is that in a fifth grade report,

a school psychologist said he shows zero learning disability. His central auditory processing disorder doesn't seem to be an issue whatsoever. But we think that he should stay in special ed because he has high anxiety. And when I read that IEP, I was like wait am i am i allowed to curse on this show dude you're allowed to be yourself everywhere everywhere we ever go when i read that iap i was like motherfucker like you mean you mean you mean like like why do you think you know i had anxiety like you tell any like you created the monster yeah anytime i walk into a social setting yeah i'm getting judged and people are thinking that i'm i'm slow or stupid or whatever and yeah

but but you could actually you could think clearly but it took you a half a beat to track what somebody was saying yes up till fifth grade it looks like and then up to fifth grade it looks like about around fourth fifth grade i actually I actually fully recovered and was normal. Other than the anxiety. Except for low self-esteem and anxiety, which I felt because I was being bullied because I was asked to repeat third grade. And all the kids who went on to fourth grade were like, why is Scotty still in third grade? And I was like, yeah, it's a good question. Oh, God. Yeah. is scotty still in third grade and i was like yeah you know it's a good question oh god yeah so when you were hanging out with your friends did they notice that you were processing in real time

did they notice a switch well from like fourth grade on i would say there was really no noticeable difference in fact i felt like i was definitely capable of um much more intellectual challenges but i just felt like who was i to question anyone really like i was definitely capable of um much more intellectual challenges but i just felt like who was i to question anyone really like i was like oh my god because you're beat up literally beat up yeah yeah and i actually became i i acted out in my own ways like i um uh i when i became the class clown a lot so i started to be popular in middle school i was kind of popular as like kind of a really cheeky i mean mean, I still am in a lot of ways. I'm still the same way, but just this really like cheeky, like I try to make everyone in the

class laugh. And I guess that was my way of just dealing with it. And yeah, I mean, that was a big thing. But also I also did like computer hacking was another thing I did to kind of like kind of act out in my own sort of introverted way. Yeah. And I, and I know, you know, that there are, I think there's five, this is off the top of my head a little bit, five personality styles that emerge from dysfunctional homes. Right. And so the Joker is one of them. Like this is the, the, the, the kids of alcoholics or addicted parents, something along those lines is that fascinating. Yeah. So, and the Joker is one of them, the class. So the class clown, the kids of alcoholics or addicted parents, something along those lines. Fascinating. Yeah.

And the Joker's one of them. So the class clown. Let me see if I can remember this. Class clown, the angel, the troublemaker. Those are three that I remember off the top, and I think there's a couple more. So you took the class clown approach, which was you would use that social skill of deflecting from the real issue. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And as well as to regain some sort of sense of power or control, what's called locus of control in psychology. Hacking was really good. I used to have this,

I created this beeper that you could put up to the phone and you could get free phone calls. So you had a device that you could- A black box. I think it was called a black box. It was illegal. Yeah. I mean, no one's going to arrest me now for it, but I hope not. Okay. Scott, as you're describing this to me, would it be okay if I told you my experience?

Yeah, I'd love to hear it. Yeah. So as you're describing this to me, I've got this overwhelming appreciation for you. Because to think about how far you've come and what you've done and the vulnerability and openness to be able to talk about this from a place that was at one time unbelievably painful. So it's like, I want to hug. I want to hug you saying, oh my God, this is crazy. Thank you. That's really kind of you. Yeah. Do you know that you have that impact on others?

Well, I do know I have that impact on children, which is why I wrote this book for that purpose. Actually, I gave a talk at Riverdale High School for the upper school students yesterday morning in New York in the Bronx. And this girl came up to me after. She was maybe – she was in upper school. She came the day afterwards with Holding Ungifted. She said, this is my Bible. She said, I'm working on a project for kids with disabilities and this book is my Bible. And I lost it.

I was just like – because I was like – like I wanted to tell her like, well, just so you know, that's why I lost it. I was just like, I mean, because I was like, like, I wanted to tell her like, well, just so you know, that's why I'm alive. Like, I feel in terms of purpose and meaning and all that. I was like, you do it saying that to me, like, like knowing that that is true is like, that's why I'm, that's why I get out of, that's why I even bothered to get out of bed. So it was just so touching. Yeah. I took a picture of it. It was just really touching. And then you also had the courage to let go. Does that mean crying? Yes, I didn't cry. Yeah.

I mean, it was just such a sentimental moment. What do you mean by let go? Well, you said I lost it. And the image I had when you said that was like I lost it, meaning like I let go. I started to shake. I trembled. I cried. Whatever.

I just felt tears welling up basically. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. God. Okay. So, you know, this is not going to be new to you, but the theme keeps coming up. Desperation and inspiration, right? The toggling of those two concepts for world-class performers and people that are like really

making a dent either globally or in their industry is that there is some sort of darker something. There's some sort of complicated younger experience that does happen for many. And I don't know if you know that, but that's a theme that keeps coming up for me. I think that is so interesting. And I was starting to bring up Angela Duckworth because I think it's relevant to this inspiration-desperation thing. So she included this story in her book as an example of like a paragon of grit because I try to her about this at dinner at her house and we were talking about the story and stuff, we identified that we both – both me and her have this thing where like if someone tells us we can't do something, it actually motivates us more to disprove them wrong. So she has this story in her book where like her freshman year at Harvard or something, she was like doing well in this chemistry class, I believe it was. And they were like, you might want to drop this class. So she went immediately to the registrar and changed her major to chemistry. And I felt like by them telling me, I was learning to say what I like immediately signed up for honors classes.

So I don't – look, I'm trying to think how this might relate. There's this thing where like I what was I desperate? I felt I was, okay, I was inspired because I was desperate to show people that I was capable. That's it. And so imagine the desperation. So I hear this when I did some work in heavyweight boxing and then more rugged sports as well. And I would ask coaches, do you want an athlete to come in? Let's just use boxing, for example, that is fighting for inspiration or from desperation? Flat out, 100% of them, zero deviance from this sport or deviation from this idea, which is desperation.

Because if they're not, it's too hard. And so if we map that thought onto world leading performers, it's too freaking hard. Now, I'd love to think that we came from inspiration, but I'm not sure that... I haven't found it yet. And I love how you just stitch together from desperation, from pain. Then if it doesn't mutate in some form to inspiration, then I think it stays dark and it stays really, really even more difficult for people because they never kind of, for a long time for you, I bet it was. So, okay. Now let's go back to the story that you were just sharing with Angela about Dr. Duckworth and you'd like, okay, you can't do something?

Well, I'm going to go sign up. Like an FU, like a chip on your shoulder. And I love this theme of a chip. Did you – is that external motivation or internal? And I get confused here. Oh, yeah. I get really confused here because – and I'm talking to you like a colleague and a friend. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I understand internal, external motivation. Like, so do you. Is that internal

or external? Yeah, no, it's such a great question. The boundary between those things, there's some fascinating cases where it does seem to break down. It was clearly an internal, internal in the sense that it was, there was this huge need that was unmet within me that I, you know, when we have these needs, these basic needs that are like the need for competence would be one that are so grossly unmet. Our system, that's why it's a need. Our system naturally goes into repair mode. And one way it goes into that mode is to motivate us to do certain actions. You know, that's why I'm really not a big believer in the idea of pure evil, you know, that people are, you know, like, are there people that are just basically good and people who are basically bad? I mean, I really do believe

there's goodness possible in everyone and there's bad possible in everyone. A lot of it does have to come to how extremely are these needs thwarted. So there's clearly an internal component there from a basic need perspective. But then I think there's also an external motivation aspect there to the sense to which what my drive was, was to have these external metrics of success. So for instance, right now in my life, I don't feel like I have that drive as much anymore. And maybe it's healthy for me that I am not so driven anymore to get, you know, like a Yale PhD or to get a Cambridge. I feel like I did, honestly, if I'm being quite vulnerable with you right now, I mean, why stop now?

It's 20 minutes of like the most extreme, most vulnerable interview I've ever had in my life, including my psychotherapy sessions. But anyway. This is not meant to be therapy, brother. This is meant to be learning for me. Yeah, I know. Oh, shit.

What was I going to say? The most important thing you were going to say. Yeah, yeah. I know. Oh, shit. What was I going to say? The most important thing you were going to say. Yeah, I know, right? The external – we're talking about the – No, you're talking about like I don't need something from Yale or Cambridge. Oh, yeah, yeah. I did feel like I went through – my 20s was full of – the motivation was the drive to prove to people that I was smart by collecting obviously smart things. Like if you get a Yale PhD, people immediately are like, oh, you're obviously

smart. I wanted like obviously smart things. Like, oh, if I did, I went to University of Cambridge and I got a master's degree. I mean, that it's other than sounding incredibly pretentious when I say that, people think, oh, they may hate you, but at least they think you're smart. But it gets empty though. And I realized that when I hit my 30s, I reached a point where I'm like, how much more do I need to prove it? Do you know? Like really? Yeah. So early on, it was low self-esteem. Did the world beat you up more than you beat yourself up? Oh, definitely both. Definitely both.

And yeah, I mean, I was not very kind to myself either. Okay. So we're going to unpack all that because the way through that, you have a really unique perspective because you understand the theories that were at play and you also understand how you did it. Yeah. And when they match, match it's great but sometimes they don't match oftentimes they don't exactly match okay so early on was like small and then it was like i'm gonna show you on big and then it's like wait a minute i'm okay exactly who i am and then that's your 30s and 40s probably right yeah i you know it's funny funny. Do you feel like in your own life

that every decade there's a theme to it? So far, I feel like I could go through every decade of my life so far and kind of say what the theme was. And I feel like my 30s, my theme is trying to find the real self. My 20s was maybe there was a false self that I was developing because I felt like I need to prove something. But I feel like my 30s, it's still a journey for me, but I'm still trying to find that, cut through all the authenticity. Maybe authenticity is my 30s. It'll be interesting to see. Hopefully, God lets me live to my 40s and I get to see what that theme is. It'll be interesting.

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and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's go back to the moment where somebody said to you, you can't. And you said, oh, really? So that's what I want to sort out. That feels to me, this is me thinking about it because I hear this all the time and I try to understand it myself. That moment, is it external, internal? And is it really just an external spark or prick that gets us going and anchors to the internal? And then that's what becomes sustainable.

That's how it feels for me. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Because Angela and I were trying to figure out what is that personality trait? We entertain everything from like, are we narcissists? Has someone threaded? Is it as simple as did someone just thread in my ego? And so I kind of rolled that out a little bit. I don't think that's what's going on with us.

It's a complete bit. I don't think that's what's going on with us really. It's a complete explanation. I think – Complete. It's a complete explanation. We're all human. We're all human, right? Like if I threaten anyone's ego, I don't think we need to put these labels on people.

That's not – people aren't going to like that. It's not nice to have your ego threatened. So I think that's – there's certainly a component of like self-protection. But I think that there's more. There's more going on there. I mean there is a – this relates to the work you do, your podcast. I mean there is this basic need for feeling competent and like you matter in this world. And I think that is a basic need that I didn't get a chance to express at all.

It was like I was not allowed to express that. And that there was a really truly intrinsic motivation component that wanted to become competent in something. And I almost didn't care what it was. So the story is that I signed up for everything. Didn't do well in everything, of course. But one thing that was really awesome for me personally is that I signed up for the school orchestra. And I said, look, in the start of the school year,

I'm going to join your orchestra. I said to the conductor, and he said, what do you play? And I said, I don't play anything yet. He's like, who are you? And so I told him, look, my granddad was a cellist with the Philadelphia Orchestra for 50 years and I am going to learn cello from him this summer. I've made that decision. And I practiced about eight hours a day that summer right after I got out of special ed. And I was so determined. I found that, okay, that's going to be my thing. So the drive and determination that fueled me so much was that I found something that was the right match to my talents and proclivities.

I knew that I could do cello. I could feel it in my bones. I think people really, you know, when we talk about talent, I think people can kind of feel in their blood that they can see upon the horizon. I can – you know what? I can get to that. You look at someone and they inspire you and you say, you know what? I can be that. And then you look at other things. You say like I don't look at Stephen Hawking and say I can see upon the horizon.

I could be a Nobel Prize winning physicist. No, but for some reason with my grandfather, with my – as well as my whole as my experience growing up with music around the household and everything, it felt so familiar to me. And I did practice eight hours that day. And by the start of the school year, I even beat someone who had been playing cello since elementary school, although I think she might have been tripping on acid during her audition. But she was swatting things with her bow that were unrelated to the music but the bar the bar was literally yeah the bar was low but my granddad gave me like um a special arrangement where i'd play the first

downbeat of every measure but it would but i i knew the crutches were going to come off and i mean after one summer you it's not like i'm going to say like i became like a world-class cellist in one summer. But I actually senior year of high school, I ended up winning the All-Department of Music Award. I ended up second cellist of the school orchestra fair and square. And it really took a lot of sacrifices. Like I skipped the school lunch periods and practiced. I got special instruction from the teacher. I was motivated to become a master.

You know, I wouldn't say creativity was really part of it. Mastery was the drive because I wanted to show... I really did. I think underlying that was this drive to just be like, look, I'm worthy. I'm worthy of being in this world. Yeah. And that goes back to this internal-external. That sounds external. I wanted to show, I wanted to demonstrate that I had whatever. However, it was touching an internal need of competence. And are you referencing self-determination theory when you're talking about competence, relatedness, and autonomy? Are you going into self-determination when you're talking about those basic needs or is that something else? As you're thinking, for those who are not familiar with it it's a great theory

to check out i like it i don't know if you do scott but like i do determination theory yeah i do too i very much like self-determination theory but i am influenced by the same people they're influenced by ultimately which is abraham maslow let me tell you yeah yeah so who so let's let's go let's go there for just a second before we go back to like how. Who are the theorists and ideas and Robert Sternberg had creative practical and analytical intelligence. So people who are going beyond our standard notions of human potential intelligence, those are my original kind of intellectual heavyweights. But in recent years, I've formed a really, I feel like, even though I've never met Maslow, I feel a great connection to him and his ideas. And I've been going through his unpublished personal journals, his unpublished articles

and letters. I've kind of gotten obsessed to kind of understand him. And I heard a lecture he gave the other day, and he said, he was talking about how we can be friends with people that we've never from other generations. And he was talking about how he's like, you know what? I think I'm friends with William James, even though I've never met him. And I can't offer him anything, but he's offered me. You know what? I think I'm friends with William James. Now, people that don't know William James, check him out. Yeah. He was a disruptive psychologist philosopher that was maybe the first to take the study

and the science of psychology from disorder to optimization. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so William James, I feel like I get to stand on his shoulders every day. He did it all. I mean, every psychologist like I get to stand on his shoulders every day. He did it all. I mean, every psychologist should say that they stand on his shoulders because he basically said everything that we get grants now to do just so that we feel like we have a purpose in life. But he kind of did it. I know.

And it's so intuitive. What he did was so intuitive and so rich as well. So those of you who like, I wish I just had a library of William James stuff that I could put up online, but his readings are thoughtful and deep and rich. And it's just, I couldn't be more influenced by his thinking. Now, Maslow is great for self-actualization and the hierarchy of needs. Really wonderful. Who else is your stuff? Well, I'm really into the humanistic thinkers and the existential philosophers. Carl Rogers? Yeah, exactly.

And then Raoul May is, I think, very kind of underrated a little bit as a thinker. He wasn't a scientist, but as a thinker who brought in the existential philosophers to America. I mean, he really— Explain that to people. I'll do the Maslow and you do take Rollo Majors really quickly. Oh, sure. I mean, there's this notion, this idea of like being, like what it means, like what is being? Just even the question, what is being? You know, what does it mean to have the essence of a person? And, you know, this idea And this idea of – or even how about this question? What does it mean to exist?

And there were lots of these questions which were – Sartre and a lot of philosophers were thinking about for a long time. It is like a central question. Yeah. I'm obsessed with this question. Yeah. What does it mean to be human? Why am I here? Who am I?

What is the human experience? Is it made up? Am I, you know, like, is there alternate universes? The rabbit hole of some of the greatest thinkers is, like, it's deep. It gets really deep. And Raul May was pivotal in taking a lot of these ideas and popularizing them and making them aware to an American audience in his books. And he would talk about their work, and he'd link it to Freud. And he'd say, you know, he would criticize Freud. And then, you know,

and then Maslow criticized Freud as well as ignoring the higher reaches of human nature. You know, what we're really capable of is much, much greater than Freud kind of depicted for us. But Raoul May was part of that group of humanistic. Actually, so Maslow called it the third force. You know, you have the behavioralist psychologist saying that we could, we can like, we're all about behavior. There's nothing, there's no point looking at like what's in the brain or what's cognition. We can just like influence you by just like stimulus response. You know, there was the Freudian and then there was this third force, humanistic psychologist, Carl Raj, Raoul May, Eric Fromm. I would, I would include part of that as well. I would quote Karen Horney, who was a

brilliant psychoanalyst who was criticizing Freud and then came up with these brilliant theories of what it means to be a real self, you know, to actually find your real self. All these things, becoming fully human. These concepts are all the same thing. Self-actualization, becoming fully human, your real self, those are all the things that they were talking about. Existence, yeah. And do you see yourself thinking about those same practices and those same questions? And if your body of work is going to contribute, is it to that field, that sub-discipline? It's a great question.

Actually working on a book project right now about this, trying to bring it. It's a little top secret, but whatever. Where I'm trying to bring, I want to bring back a lot of these humanistic ideas because I do see them as relevant today more than ever. There's this audio track I heard Maslow talking about. He said people keep – this is from 1968. He said people keep predicting what the world is going to be like in the year 2000. And they talk about all these economic models and political models.

He said, nobody's talking about what the future of the soul is going to be. You know, what is the future? And he said, unless we really understand and plumb the depths of what it means to be human in its full grandeur, he said, we're going to have serious issues in the future with politics. And I was like, dude, you get it. You get it. Oh, yeah. Wow. That is really cool. Yeah. Okay. So just really quickly to follow that thread, and then we'll go back is in Carl Rogers, one of the existentialist humanistic psychologists was really about the first introduction was about being

person centered, my introduction to being person centered. So the person that I'm talking to, it's all about them. It's always about them. And then they unlock, no, I'm sorry. They have their insights within them. So our job is as great friends and or professional psychologists, whatever, is to help people unlock what's in them. and so we do it by a person-centered non-judgmental approach and just asking great questions about what it's like to be them when they're at their best when it's not when they're not their best how do they get through there and i've just i've like that has been a game changer for me as well so okay good so now now we're kind of calibrating on on you're very good by way. I have to say you are very good at constructive listening.

Like you're like this episode, you're, you're showing like the principles, like he would, Carl Rogers would have been very proud of you. Yeah. That's what's up. That's really good. Okay. All right. So, um, all right, good.

So let's go back now to how, how did you, there's two hows. How did you survive the small years when you were socially ostracized for not being able to figure it out? How did, quickly, I should say, how did you treat yourself? And then how did you move through once somebody saw something in you? So there, I guess there's three hows, right? And so can you unpack those hows? And literally, how did you do it? Well, I wanted to do it for a long time. It was in me. It was within me. It was just burning, burning within me. And it took this person to just see beyond the label where a learning disabled she's to just really look at i mean she was applying carl rogers principles as well she looked at the totality of

the person of me you know the person and she said you know i i think that uh why are you here and and i went in my head why am i here and then i went yeah why am i here and i was like wait a minute you're giving me an excuse to actually question this? Awesome. And I told my parents and everyone. I said, I'm not going to report back to special ed. And this has never happened before in my school district. And it was a big meeting.

And there was nothing in their rule book for this. So what they did is they let me out on a trial basis. They said, we'll let you out. But if you don't do that well, you're coming back in. And I was like, thanks for that vote of confidence, guys. But I went immediately from a straight C student to a straight A student all the way through the rest of high school immediately. So let's go back to that moment when she said, hey, what are you doing? And you said, I'm not sure. And you said, yeah, I don't have to be here.

It transferred from why am I here? Yeah, why am I here? You're right. I've been almost like, yeah, that's what I've been saying. And then how did you take the step? Because there's so many of us that have an idea. So you had the idea instantly, like, why am I here? And then you had some sort of energy around it.

But how did you take that next step to go into the big world, to go into the scary place, whatever that is? I think it's something I was I've been preparing to do for many, many years. You said that earlier, what does that mean? I mean, I wanted to, I felt a lot of rage and rage inside me that like, um, like that I could, like, I felt like, you know, I really could, uh, do a lot more, but, um, I was too shy to say anything. I mean, I was severely introverted, I would say before ninth grade. And so I internalized everything, uh, pretty much. And, uh, I feel like it just like, that was the impetus I needed. I also feel like I'm extremely sensitive to expectations of me. And, and I feed off those expectations really quickly.

So like, if I'm in a room, and I feel like people like might not like me, like, I actually am really good at acting in ways where they really don't like me. But if I feel like if I'm in a room and I feel like there's – people are expecting something good out of me, it's just – my best self comes out automatically. It's just something I've noticed just happens. I'm like exquisitely sensitive to expectations and this was this was a teacher who for the first time in a while you know maybe all of all of school was like she's like you know i think i see something greater within you and whatever sensitivity i had it was like wow that's all i needed that's all it took was one person to believe in me and and then i can just hit the ground running that's really

cool was it that one person outside of mom and dad or did mom and dad oh they they were they were they they believed in me they um yeah i want to be fair to my parents uh but i think uh they were overprotective especially my mom so i think she didn't want anything to be she wanted everything to be easy for me like she couldn't bear me suffering. So I think she went out of her way to make things easy for me, which is exactly the opposite of what I actually was craving. Yeah, that's really powerful because then that one person didn't say to you, hey, it's going to be really hard.

Maybe you could do it. The one person said, hey, I see something in you. And then you took that inner crave that you had for a long time, the rage and the crave to say, fuck. Okay. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so there was this priming or front-loading experiences that you had of being bullied and bullying yourself of feeling socially awkward and stupid and small and all of those awful experiences that you felt for a long time. And it just built up and built up and built up. And then you had this moment where someone said, Hey, and you said, and it was like a flood door open, like, yeah. So you didn't have to like contemplate. You didn't have to like, you didn't muse very much. It was like,

there was a readiness. It sounds like. Yeah. I remember it being like a no, like, I was just like, excited to like, like, almost like, wait, you mean I can get out? You know, it's like, I was just waiting for a moment where like, it could there. I was like, give me a reason, you know, like, okay, so then go go now to day one in the new experience, the new school, the bigger classrooms, whatever they were not bigger, but not bigger, but with the general population. And I'm mapping that onto me trying to do something new. So I've got these ideas of whatever about the craft of psychology or the business aspects of some of the other ventures. And then I want to push and I want to move and explore into new territories. It's exciting, it's dangerous, all those good things. And so when you're in there, can you teach me how to be better and more effective and teach all of

us listening about how to really own that space to go from C's to A's in new territory? Yeah, well, the space is that it's a lot of it is about believing in yourself. And I, um, was, uh, is a mindset shift. I would say it was a mindset shift. My mindset before was like, you know, okay, I'm going to take this untimed test and I'm going to take this because no one expects anything to, I am going to show them and I'm going to do whatever it takes to do well, even if it requires like, I mean, I overstudied everything. I overstudied for every test. I learned strategies to overcome my anxiety.

It's not like my anxiety went away overnight, but I found out that if I overprepared, I wasn't anxious on the day of the test. It was really, it was really fine. You know, if I really like, I would study something till it's just dead, like, like, like there's just, I, there's just no more, um, I can extract from that stone. You know what I mean? So I, I'm hearing that and I'm getting two pictures. One is like, yeah, okay. He was really working. And then I got the other picture, like there's a torment, an inner torment that was still guiding that maybe early, maybe now part of your learning phase. Was it tormenting? I think that element was there to

some degree, because I think a lot of it became an obsessive, you know, we talk in positive psychology between obsessive passion and a harmonious passion. I would say that a lot of that was driven probably by obsessive passion, which is not conducive to well-being. It's not conducive to a lot of things. Whereas now I do think I'm driven a lot more by harmonious passion. How did that switch? Because I'm telling you, like as certain as we're having this conversation, that that dissonance in work ethic and straining and striving between that and harmony is one of the things that most people on the world stage get right, but they have dissonance still. The turmoil, internal turmoil, but it's like enough anxiousness to fuel the obsessiveness.

And then it's rare when it actually changes, but you have the experience of it changing or transforming. Yeah, absolutely, because you realize at a certain point that you don't have to work that hard like you don't you really don't have to um you can actually get better returns on your investment by having a more harmonious life by um having like supporting having having supportive relationships by how there are other things in your life that actually support the work indirectly. Indirectly.

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for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. For sure, it's a magnifier beyond, right? When there's a sense of harmony in the present moment experiences in your life. So the amplification of output is noticeable and the experience is wonderful as well. And you're suggesting that it just came from a thought. You mean like the thought in that moment with that special ed teacher that like, well, I'm going to get out? No. And now I'm using the same, I'm using this idea like I had a thought that, you know what, this is kind of crazy making. I'd like more harmony. I'm trying to think because I think it's been a very gradual, I don't think it's been

like a stepwise function, so to speak. But it's been pretty little by little, I've been chipping away at the obsession. You know, I have hopefully, you know, I can, this is a long life. It's like Carl Rogers would say, you know, like, becoming human is not the designation, it's the process. So I think that little by little, you start chipping away at it because you change your self-esteem. There's a stable form of self-esteem that's very internally, it's all about internal acceptance and your own, like, are you, by my own internal coherent set of values, am I being true to them? Am I being true to my own internal code? Then there's a form of self-esteem that is driven by external factors like the awards you win, how many publications you have, whether or not your colleagues like you, whether or not you get enough likes on Facebook. Well, I find myself gradually like caring a lot less about what others think of me as long as I am being authentic to myself. I can be really hard on

myself if I say something to someone or do something that um i feel like is was not nice like i get angry now at myself uh or disappointed not because not so much as in my 20s i would be so horrified if you know always like am i was this person think of me what does this person think of me did i say something that maybe they won't like me as much anymore and now it's shifted to more of like, you know, did I, am I okay with what I said? And if I'm okay with that, even if the person like, even if they don't like me for saying it, then I'm okay with it. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. What are some of those core drivers that you have for self-esteem?

And this is really, we're talking about character and values right now. Totally. And this is really. We're talking about character and values right now. Totally. And authenticity. I think honesty is an important one. And setting healthy boundaries. Has been an important one for me. To not worry. Because with the boundaries thing.

The reason why it's so hard for a lot of people setting healthy know, that they're not respecting that. You know, I try to respect other people's boundaries, you know, like, so it really needs to be this mutual thing. And particularly in friendships and in relationships, it really has to be a mutual respect of these boundaries. I have found that I have tended to go on the side of just not setting any. I think a lot of it has to do with having this very overprotective mother that just like there were zero boundaries with things that she would say. I never really spoke up much as a child and say, you know what, I don't like being talked to like that. Or I would really like to, you know what, mom, I want to

go walk to the bus station myself. I don't want you to drive me because it's humiliating, you know, for all the other kids to see. Um, I didn't speak up that much about it, but now I'm really trying to, I feel like I'm, I'm if I speak that truth that's from within, even if I sacrifice what someone thinks of me. And that's just something that is a shift from my 20s where I would care more about what people would think of me that I wouldn't even say things. I think it's an incredible gift we give ourselves to love others, but not give a shit what they think of us. It's so true. So true. And that freedom in that, but I, so that's one of the reasons I'm trying to sort out how you did

this because it took, it was not stepwise for me, but it did, it did happen from a thought and it was born out of a lot of pain of me caring too much about what people thought of me that I couldn't be me. And so I think you and I are both on this, I don't know, I'll speak for myself, insatiable path to express authentically. And to do that, I have to invest in the craft and invest in the being. And so being and becoming, the intersection between those two is complicated. And I'll be damned if I don't know a better way to understand it than say, I've got to get really good at the thing that I do so that I can begin to try to explain and express outside of me what makes sense inside of me. And if I'm sloppy as a painter, I'll never be able to demonstrate the beauty that I feel or the hostility that I feel inside of me. So I've got to become

great at matching the internal experience to the external communication, whether it's paint, song, words, whatever it might be, written form, whatever. So it's crazy making in some respects, but I love it. And there's a freedom that comes from it. That's great. I love the way you described it. And a lot of it is about what are your goals? What kind of life do you want to live? A you're if you live a lot of people strive for happiness right like they spend their whole life striving for happiness um you could spend your whole life striving for uh medals but if you do live if you commit yourself to being like if you just literally you're like i'm you know i'm gonna commit my my life to becoming who i actually am then that actually brings along with it a whole set of ways of living,

you know, including responsibility, taking responsibility for your actions, but owning your actions, right? Because you're owning it because it's you, you know? There's nothing wrong with owning it, even if someone doesn't like it. That's right. And I think if we, this is going to sound really trite, but if we don't write it down and get really clear on the words that matter most to us to guide us, then it becomes this just hamster internal hamster wheel spinning internal experience. Like, am I on course? I'm not sure if I, but once we write it down, right. And we crystallize, it becomes really clear. Now that being said, that being said is, um being said, is there a word or a phrase that cuts to the center of who you are?

Do you ask a lot of your guests this question? Yeah, I think it's hard. What's tricky is that I'm so mood dependent. It's funny. Do you know what the first word that came to my mind was? It's not like the most flattering. Cheeky was the first word that came to mind. But I think that there is this core to me that gets stifled through my neuroticism and my worry and my anxiety, but there's a core to me that is spontaneous, that is yearning for autonomy and a realization.

And I think that's a really strong – that's like a big theme of like if you went to the core. But I think like that playfulness and all that, it tends to sometimes get thwarted by my worries and fears. Okay. So let's take this same concept. And is there a word or a phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most? What does that mean? Well, it's purposely kind of vague. so I appreciate that you want more information, but I kind of don't want to give you more information. The center of what I understand? Yeah, what cuts to the center? Is there a word or phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most? I can soften it a little bit if you want, but I don't think you need it.

It's like an IQ test. No, no, no, no. It's meant to like, when you drill it all down, what is the thing that you understand the most? Yeah, I... Yeah, no, I actually, I get what you're saying,

and it's like, there are deep truths that I feel like I get. I feel like we all really want to matter. And I feel like when I – like everyone I meet, there's individual differences I respect, but we're all these imperfect people playing out these internal conflicts and dramas in this desperate need to matter in this world. And until we really, I feel like, understand that, we're going to keep fighting, you know, like, but once you understand that, then you can look at a level or dimension of a person that is actually much more similar to you than you want to admit. Oh, God, I'm so glad you took the time to answer that. Yeah.

Yeah, because there's like the appreciation for how deep of an answer and thoughtful of a response that is. And if I cut it down to a word, which I don't really like doing, but you did ask me for a word you did. Yeah. But that's like a forcing function, right? To get to what you just said. And is it, is it, um, it's not meaning, is it, I can't even think of it. In one word, in one word? You know, that's true. It's not relevance. It's something deeper, much deeper than that. Yeah, it is deeper than relevance.

It's, well... You know what? I mean, we don't need to play this game. Existence. Existence. Yeah, there you go. And you explained it better than a word. Of course you did. Okay, so... All right. There you go. And you explained it better than a word. Of course you did. Okay.

So, all right. But I broke the rules. I love it. On that idea, are you a rule follower or a risk taker? No, I have a desire to break the rules in a cheeky way. But I feel like I am very value-driven. But I don't like blindly following any rule. I just don't like it.

And I immediately want to react against if someone is giving me an order. I immediately have a tendency to want to be like, wait, can I think about that? Yeah, just like the question in one word. So on that idea, do you have a spiritual practice? You know, I've been getting a lot more spiritual. I find reading a lot of these existential philosophers like Irv Yalom, I find to be really spiritual. He writes about... The founder of group therapy. Yeah, totally. And these stories of people coming to him in psychotherapy, feeling like they have no meaning

in their lives, and kind of filling them up with meaning by cutting the illusions away of their life. I feel like to me that's spiritual. I find things like awe to be spiritual experiences, like sacralizing the normal, sacralizing making sacred, like even just a conversation with a person, a new person you've met, and treating that interaction as sacred to me is a spiritual experience. So it's, you know, I tend to make it maybe more mundane than. And are you, do you practice in a formal way? Because I'm now thinking that you.

Yeah, meditation. Meditation. I tried the MBSR eight-week course course and i wrote an article about my experience with that my mindfulness-based stress reduction yeah john cabot zinn exactly exactly and i i took i they did it here they have a course here at penn michael beam taught it and i found myself to be a lot less reactive to everything is that cool yeah it's really cool. A lot less reactive to others, but also to your own self. You know, like I used to have a lot of anxiety.

I mean, the word anxiety is a common theme here, but even just up to the past couple of years, if my heart rate would start to go too fast, I'd just be like, oh my God, I think I'm having a heart attack. I mean, it's ridiculous. Like now I realize how, how, how much I overreacted, overreacted to my own bodily state. Whereas I realized I was causing way too much suffering to myself, unnecessary suffering. We all just cause ourselves and others way too much suffering. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I'd love for you to answer some questions about you really quickly, like a scale of one to 10. And this is like,

so you gave us context of why you've invested so much in your passion, what's come to be your passion of existentialism and psychology and the intersection of the two and then if you could give us some characteristics here so on scale of one to ten ten being the highest your ability to switch on um well like on command uh eight your ability to switch off like decompress four your your ability to manage your internal distractions wait is it to switch off once you've already been on yes okay okay um yeah okay so i just assumed that, yeah. So your internal distractions? Your ability to manage your internal. Okay. Now, literally, because I took the pre-MBSR and post-MBSR test,

while that exact question, and I went from a four to a seven. That's what's up. Yeah, and I think now I might actually be at an eight or so. This has been three months or so. That's really cool. The ability to lock in and focus when it's dangerous. Oh, what a great

question. I'm actually, you know what? I'm not good at that. I would actually put that at a five. How about when it's boring? To lock in when it's boring. I've trained seven. I can do that now. It's painful. It's painful, but I can do it.

Seven. When you feel pressure. It's at a seven now. And I want to say that this has been – that's huge for me. They say that's a seven now. That's actually huge for me. Okay. And then during emotional risk?

I think, you know what, I'm going to give myself some self-compassion here and say I think I'm about an eight on that now. Yeah. You've come a long way there probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You probably have a really good understanding. What do you think is more important for people to get right? To lock in, so this is strictly attention, and to lock in when it's dangerous in when it's dangerous, when it's boring, when they feel slight, when they feel pressure or when it's emotionally risky. What would you hope that your son, daughter, family member could get better at or be great at? Emotional riskiness. I mean, that's the difference between those two questions are the difference between would I rather my child be good at standardized tests or have a soul?

That's great. That's really good. Okay. Now, here we go. One to ten on both of these. Motivated by external rewards, one to ten, and motivated by internal rewards, one to ten. Okay. External rewards, now about a six. Internal rewards, 10. Whoa, I just gave you a 10 on something. Yes. And then before, was it external nine and internal lower? Early 20s, external nine, internal six or seven. Yeah, still high,, six or seven. Yeah, still high, but not as high. And then we talked about that flipping.

Okay, openness to ideas and experiences. Now that I'm like 15. Like too much, too much. I need to curb that in. I'm going to ask you a question at the end that I don't ask other people. But okay, your fear of failure. You know uh it's it's low now uh three i actually i actually enjoy it i actually enjoy failure your fear of looking bad you know the looking i think about this stuff because i think of so many kids you know like

the word looking bad the the term looking bad. You can look bad in lots of different ways. So for instance, narcissists don't care at all. Those we tend to label narcissists. They tend to – they hate looking bad when it comes to intelligence and looks and social status. They don't mind at all looking bad when it comes to interpersonal things. When I think about it, I actually think that I would rather, like I'm horrified to look bad socially, like that I've hurt someone. Like if I look bad, I would feel a lot of shame for that. But I don't mind as much anymore looking

bad at like failing, for instance. So I wanted to add that nuance. You know, I appreciate that. And where that question came from was for 18 years, I dedicated every Saturday night to this program I developed called Late Night Sports. So it's literally an open gym, three full court basket hoops in the middle of Los Angeles. Gang involved was almost 90% of people there were gang involved. And what I would do is I found a grant and I would pay for it to be open. And then they would get 10 minutes to 15 minutes of me working out a theory that I just learned in psychology or sport and performance psychology. And it was literally me working it out to 100. It was about between 80 and 120 guys a night, high school and college. And the talent was through

the roof. Like seriously, Los Angeles based, if you weren't a Hooper or basketball player in LA, or if you were, you knew about this program. It was phenomenal. And we had DJs, we had a bones table. We had like, it was, it was popping. And so then the price of admission was just to listen to me for 10, 15 minutes. And what that was, what my observation was that I would see these incredible talented men, young men play basketball way above the rim. There'd be no reason why they couldn't at least compete with, um, they, they could, majority of them could make a minor league team, but some of them could definitely compete on the pros, but they couldn't put it together long enough. And the reason they couldn't put it together as a, like a, um, a cursory observation was they cared too much about

looking good. And then, then therein, they weren't coachable. And now, you know, you got to get good at something. You've either got to be your best coach, you've got to be a world-class coach, or you need to be around an environment that really supports world-class coaching. And so looking good was better than getting good. And it was one of the traps that I – Huge trap. I love it. I love it. Actually, I mean I almost don't care about how I, so much that people think I should care more.

So I have, I'll like friends come up to me, like Scott, just as a friendly advice, do you ever get that? Just as a friend, I just wanted to, you know, because what would friends be if they didn't tell you things, but you probably like, you just put up your blog posts or you just put up your Facebook posts and you don't, you don't think about it. You know, like sometimes you might want to think about the, and I'm just like, okay, well, I don't tend to really, I tend to just, I'm driven and I get inspired. What it is, is I get excited by something, I get inspired and then I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it. And then I do it and I get it up and I'm happy that I did it. And maybe, I don't know, maybe I should care more

about it. I love it. Okay. Let's go back to these questions. Your fear of success, one to 10. Oh, these are great questions. Oh, I almost want to say eight, seven or eight. I'm going to go eight. I'm going to go eight. So that's kind of high. What, what, what does that mean to you? I'm, um, I'm really scared at the, um, kind of the games people play, like humans play with each other and, and the, and the, just the automatic trip wiring stuff. Like I know i i see how when people become successful other people it activates in a lot of people the desire to tear to kind of see them fall and i would rather i would rather not be quote successful but be like helpful like is there a distinction between

helpful and successful like i would rather just i would say yeah yeah if you're really helpful yeah and you are helpful to many yeah probably going to lead to some awareness of how impactful you are yeah and whether it's small community family you know family small community nationally regionally nationally internationally like if you're really good at something you'll be recognized for it and if that thing that you're really good at something, you'll be recognized for it. And if that thing that you're really good at is being helpful, you'd be recognized often by it. Yeah. It could be scary though. It could be scary like being recognized because I'm still not entirely comfortable with that.

But you have a blog post that's crazy popular and a podcast that's like blowing up. I mean I – well, thank you. First of all, thank you i well thank you first of all thank you that's incredibly nice of you to say that um but i um i i i'm i do all those things now you know like like i'm really like i find it fascinating i'm so curious i'm like rabid i like it's all part of stemming from this ravenous curiosity that i have but when i um get like praised for it like then i start to feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like because – you become a target. You know, it's like I don't want to be like a target for anything, for jealousy, for – like the last thing in the world I want is for anyone to feel jealous.

Like if I could, I would give to them. Like I would – in my ideal world, I would give everyone the same level of success. I know how corny that sounds, but my drive in life is to bring as many people up as possible. And it just horrifies me to think that someone might be jealous or someone might want to, like I might be a target. Just, I don don't know is it more about the target part or more about you wanting to see people do well because i can imagine from your early experiences like this would be a easy little trigger like whoa i listen i got mike you have no one you have no idea how much i was made fun of and if i get successful i'm gonna be and i'm gonna it's like

a different poking but the same poke yeah well that's a brilliant insight. I mean, you're like a psychoanalyst over here, but that's actually a really good point. That's like, yeah, but that was like a really, I mean, that was a really insightful point. Yeah. I think that that is probably a very, very big part of it. I mean, there still is this like kid, this little like computer hacker kid that like was like anonymous, you know, at age 13, like on bulletin boards, like making an impact. Now, now I'm having hopefully positive impact, not hacking, but it's still, there's this drive I have to kind of like do it anonymously or just like, just like put it out there and, and, and feel good that people like it, but, but not, but still be able to hide. There's, I'm trying to like express,

I've never expressed that before. So I'm trying to express to you how that feels inside is, do you know what I mean? Not, not really. I think like what I'm hearing is that you have this compelling desire to share what you found to be valuable or interesting or helpful. And then you quickly put it out and then you want to retreat back. And that retreating back is like a safety mechanism so you don't get poked or that wound doesn't get touched again for the need that people have when other people are successful to somehow try to level set. And that often level setting process is bringing another person down rather than a person going, well, if they can do it, I can do it. Let's go. And instead of it rising tide. I think that's right. A lot of it, we talk about thick skin, thin skin. Look, I think all of us

have our triggers where we're, I don't care who you are. I bet you had the Rock Johnson on your show. There would be one thing that you could bring up that he'd be thin-skinned. I don't want to get beat up by him now for saying that. But I'm saying we're all human. Do you know what I mean? And I think that I still do have this little trigger where I am really hypersensitive to bullying. And I'm scared of it. I am really hypersensitive to bullying. And I'm scared of it. I'm scared of it happening to me.

And it's not that I think I'm a thin-skinned person, like as a totality of a person, but it's still, you know, it's still a thing for me a little bit, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's brilliant because the fear of success thing, I think most people want to do the macho type answer and say, what? That's no way. But the truth is that territory is public often. And so whatever circle, it doesn't need to be like wildly known TV type of public or movie star public, but like public in the circle and arenas that you are in and to do so

you have to put your ideas out there whether they're on canvas or written or verbal like you're it's an expression of ideas and once the ideas come out there's vulnerability that comes with it yeah it's required that's required there's the creativity creativity is vulnerable yeah oh say that keep going creativity i mean creativity is inherently a vulnerable place because creativity is you're bringing self-expression. You're bringing it to being something that didn't exist. And when you do that, you know, people do not like – a lot of people do not like change. Is that something research-based or is that an observation that people don't like change

it is research based that there are individual differences and some people like change more than others that's for sure but there's enough people on this planet that you'll have enough people with the individual differences variable do not like change to kind of make you go crazy. But hopefully, hopefully you'll still have a lot of people. There's still enough people to plan.

They can support you too. It's also, it's kind of like, what do you focus on? You know, do you, do you let your friends and family and people that really care support you? And do you focus on that? Or do you focus on the people who are on,

on a blog criticizing you? I mean, what is it? What do you focus on that? Or do you focus on the people who are on a blog criticizing you? I mean, what do you focus on in your life? A lot of that's meditation as well, right? I often say to athletes and performers on the world stage that they're not prepared to do social media. And they look at me like I'm cockeyed because they grew up in it and then say, just give it a three-week break. Just publish you need to build, keep your brand or whatever, just publish, but don't read. And the freedom that they start to experience, you're like, Oh my God, I'm not burdened by somebody saying I'm stupid or ugly or whatever. You nailed it. You nailed it. Yeah. Okay. So can you give me one strategy or tactic that you use to train calm or to train confidence or for mental imagery? One of those three.

Or maybe even vision setting or goal setting. Sure. Sure. There's so much talk about goal-directed behavior. And I think that what gets undervalued is undirected behavior or spontaneous cognition. A lot of us, if we give ourselves time to do a kind of meditation called open monitoring meditation where it's undirected, you're not returning to your breath. But you're really sitting there and you're looking at – within maybe a 15-minute time period at the thought pattern. Where are your daydreams? Where are they going?

What are the themes? What are the things – What are the aspects of that cognition that you want to keep? What are the ones you don't want to keep? But you just look at it very non-judgmentally. And I find that a lot of my goals emerge from listening to my non-directed cognition. And then for some folks that have been listening, I think you and I are talking about the same thing when I talk about contemplative mindfulness, just observing without judgment. Oh, yeah. Cool.

Yeah. Is that we're talking about the same thing? I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Pressure comes from... You want me to fill in the blank? Yeah. This is amazing. You're giving me a cognitive workout. I know. Pressure comes from within. How about that? Well, yeah. So what does that mean? Oh, I don't know. I thought you wanted me to... Did I have to just do one word? No, no, no. Yeah. Just riff on it. If it comes from within, what does that mean? Oh, I don't know. I thought you wanted me to – did I have to just do one word?

No, no, no. Yeah, just riff on it. Like if it comes from within, what does that mean? Like a self-criticalness? Does it come from a fear? Yeah. You know, it's like saying like the difference between like stressors and stress. Like you can have stressors in your environment, but it doesn't mean you actually have to be stressed out or have stress from them and i think that um the same thing what was the word you asked me what was it pressure i think it's the same thing with pressure like you could

have pressures and it doesn't actually mean that you have to have uh give yourself pressure over it um you your mind can, um, make those decisions and is a lot more control of that than, than, uh, than, than we, a lot of most of us realize. I mean, and you can learn that through cognitive behavioral therapy. You learn that from all sorts of, um, uh, the ACT approach is really good at helping distance it. But, um, but yeah, like when I say pressure is from when I'm saying there's a difference between pressures and pressure. Yeah. I love it. And so for me, pressure feels like I have to think or do something faster than I'm capable of doing the standard of, um, that I'd

like to be able to do it at. And then when I get out of my own way, I say, yeah, but that forcing function of doing it fast, maybe I'm going to create something new. So that's, that's the way that like, it works for me a little bit. Cool. I like that. Okay. So how about this statement or finishing this? It all comes down to. I mean, the first, the first word that came to my head was love, but is that too cheesy is that like that's too like like like oh duh you know um i'm i'm the first one the first one ever say all you need is love like that's profound well it's you know when i answer that question that's what it comes up from for me too oh good okay so i'm not How about this? Success is?

Failing. How do you put that together? Success is learning. I'm going to say that. Can I modify my answer? Success is learning. I think that personal growth. To me, I define success as I think that – or personal growth. Success is personal growth. To me, I define success as I've grown as a whole person. My existence has somehow been benefited by an experience.

So that's what I mean by that. Brilliant. Okay. What do you hope the next generation gets right? A lot of things. I hope there's greater transcendence in the next generation. There's greater appreciation and awe for – and just like humanity being more sacred, being treated as more sacred, like human decency. I see a lot of politics that is so caught up in a non-transcendent state of ego and tribalism that I see just human decency falling by the wayside.

And what do you hope, or no, I'm sorry, not hope. What do you see in our field of psychology, you know, in the next five to 10 years? Well, I see a big, whether or not I like it or not but i see neuroscience is growing the biological um the biological approach to psychology is growing in size and i didn't say i liked that trend um and that i wouldn't in fact i would I would like it to be balanced more by, if I had my way, and it may be, and who knows, maybe I can influence this in my own small way, I would bring more humanism back to psychology.

Relationship, is that when you say humanism? It's tough to define it, but a lot of the things that the humanistic psychologists were talking about. So, you know, we talk about – I'm talking about non-reductionism. You know, when I talk humanism, I'm talking about a whole person approach to understanding a person where, you know, a person isn't defined by their dopamine transmission or their – or one, like they're a narcissist. Well, they could be a narcissist who is a family person who gives back to their community, who has a very complex self. And then once you start adding all those layers, then just that one aspect doesn't have as much meaning.

And then last little set of questions here. How do you articulate the concept of mastery? Great question. kind of getting in there and fully comprehending and, um, and, and becoming aware of the operations of something, you know, just kind of like, you know, I think that the autistic kid who is fascinated with the system, right? And like goes underneath the layers of reality to really just kind of keeps on peeling layers of reality to get, uh, um, uh, to get it, the truth of, of something and really understand all of its components. To me that I feel like that child is that that kid is mastering it. Do you know what I mean? Cool. Yeah, it's a nice image. Yeah, it's a real nice image.

Okay, Scott, where can we find out, track, follow along, be part of your community? What can we do to do that? Oh, thanks for asking. So I actually just, so you can go to scottbarrykoffman.com is my webpage, and I basically have it all there. I've been trying to put up free resources, and we just put up a new podcast section. So yeah,

that would just, that'd be a good starting place. Okay. And then how about on social? I'm on Twitter, SB i post on instagram once a year um do you post do you post on instagram a lot occasionally yeah occasionally we have a finding mastery in a post page that is relatively frequent like every like you're you'll be on ours for sure oh cool yeah okay so scott Yeah. Okay. So Scott, thank you. Thank you for your openness. Thank you for your vulnerability. Thank you for the courage to be able to demonstrate both of those and still have a sense of strength and manliness as a man to be able to do all of that. So I think it's a really powerful ability for men to be open, vulnerable,

and strong all at the same time. So thank you for demonstrating and that. And then also, I want to thank you for coming on the show to be able to help others, one of your missions, to be able to help others. And if there's a parting insight or a practice or something that we can leave people with, what would that be? Don't be afraid. And I just do want to thank you for what you said, because this has been one of the most interesting interviews I've ever done. So thank you. Good, good, good. Okay. So for everyone listening, thank you. And you can find on social media, it's at Michael Gervais for me, and then at S.B. Kaufman for Scott Barry Kaufman. And then you can also go to findingmastery.net forward slash community, where there's a whole tribe of people that are interested in supporting and

challenging each other on the path of mastery. And then Instagram is findingmastery. If you haven't downloaded this podcast, please, and you enjoyed it, please punch over to Scott Barry Kaufman's podcast. And that's on iTunes. And you can also do the same for us at Finding Mastery. So I hope everyone has a great and fantastic journey ahead of them. Thanks, Scott. Thank you. all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

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