Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Push Beyond Your Limits: Top Big Wave Surfer on The Art of Challenging the Unknown | Kai Lenny

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

What is it like staring down the barrel of a 70-foot wave? How do we challenge ourselves to do bigger and riskier things in life? How do we take the first step towards something that seems unimaginable at first?One of the best big wave surfers and risk takers on the planet, Kai Lenny has found true freedom in the powerlessness that comes with confronting one of Mother Nature’s most spectacular monsters – the big wave. As a multi-disciplinary athlete who surfed his fist wave at four-years-old, Kai has successfully conquered various water-based disciplines, earning him the title of a true waterman. Whether it's big-wave surfing, kiteboarding, stand-up paddleboarding, windsurfing, or hydrofoiling, Kai's unmatched skills and unwavering determination have led him to become a trailblazer in each field. Kai’s list of world championship honors include being an eight-time SUP Surfing World Champion, VICE KSP Kiting World Champion, two-time Molokai to Oahu Foil Boarding World Champion and World Record Holder, Molokai to Oahu SUP World Champion, and winning one of the world’s most prestigious big wave surfing events in 2020—the Nazaré Tow Surfing Challenge.According to Kai: “Once you know how to tap into fear, you can use it to do things you never thought were possible.” Most impressive—in a sport that requires a unique kind of risk-taking and preparation—is Kai’s masterful approach to mindset. A perfectionist whose passion is “always getting better at something,” Kai has many incredible insights on staying motivated, adaptable, and innovative all in the face of radical risk and relentless unknowns. We first had Kai on the podcast back in 2016 – episode #44 if you want to check it out. It’s an epic conversation, and it was equally as incredible to see how Kai has continued to evolve in the 7 years since that original recording.This time around, we cover everything from navigating the unknown to performance imagery, breaking through limits, staying calm in chaos, setting a vision, and so much more. Many of us will never surf a 50+ foot wave – but we can all learn from Kai’s approach to mastering his craft, himself, and the way he navigates life._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And I am so stoked to welcome Kai Lenny back to the podcast for this week's conversation. What's the quality of life if you're not exploring your edges, you're not taking risks to grow? And on the other hand, what if you've designed your life to risk everything? Professional surfer and world class expert on risk, Kai has somehow found true freedom in the powerlessness that comes with confronting one of mother nature's most spectacular monsters, the big wave. Now known as one of, if not the

best big wave surfers in the world, he started surfing at age four and since has racked up a substantial list of world-class honors and in multiple sports that require operating in consequential environments. Kai has cultivated a masterful approach to mindset. Kai is a master of craft with a passion for quote unquote, always getting better at something. He has so many incredible insights on staying motivated, adaptable, and innovative, all in the face of radical risk and relentless unknowns. Something I believe we can all apply in our own lives. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Kai Lenny. Okay, Kai, I want to start with this really big and broad question, which, you know, you've

got insights and experiences and stories to share that are really uncommon. Like you live an uncommon life in so many ways, but I want to try to make this bridge between you surfing some of the heaviest waves and most consequential waves in the world to like this, the, the everyday person that might not ever get in the ocean, let alone surf at any consequential waves. So what do you hope people listening can learn from you and the way that you've approached your life? I think the takeaway from riding big waves has always been challenging yourself to the unknown.

You know, when you ride big waves, you constantly are experiencing kind of a new experience every time you hit the water. Even if you return to an existing surf spot, big wave surfing is just so unpredictable. And it's having, it's kind of gaining the courage, but the confidence through the experience of doing something in the unknown, something that you haven't personally been through yet, that I feel like biggest growth sort of happens. And that's been my draw to Big Waves is it is a fun combination of not only athleticism, but innovation, and then meets sort of opportunity. You know, you can't just go out and get a Big wave on any given Sunday. It really tends to happen five or six times per year if you're lucky, where you're in truly exceptional conditions. And even then, sometimes the best swell of your entire lifetime comes in and might be the last time you ever experienced something like that. And so being mentally, physically prepared, that's on the performance side. And then, you know, thinking outside the box, working on the equipment, working on the details

of the session you're going to have, but then also being able to be sort of able to adapt, being adaptable to anything that's thrown towards you. That's sort of that unpredictability of the surf. And everything I've learned doing big waves is totally translated to how I approach my daily life, how I could be more efficient in what I'm doing, you know, when to push really hard and when to back off, you know, because life is all about sort of timing to most successful people end up becoming really successful because they either get lucky with their timing or they're, you know, smart enough to position themselves at the right place at the right time. And

that's like trying to catch a big wave. You know, there's so much more that goes into just riding a big wave. It's, it starts, you know, days, if not weeks, if not years before where I almost like a couple of weeks before I might be able to predict the exact moment the biggest part of the swell is going to hit this spot. And, you know, thanks to so much technology out in the ocean, as a surfer, you naturally become a meteorologist. You're constantly looking at the weather maps. You're constantly trying to understand how waves move, all the sort of different, you know, ways you can measure waves, you know, from the vertical sea height to the interval between the waves to even buoys or hitting other places, you can sort of predict down to at least the every half hour, exactly when it's going to be largest. So that's, that's like the fun part too. Um, and you know, you can't help it, but cross over into other facets of life. Okay. What I hear in there is like big general themes is it's, it's about figuring out how to deal with unknown conditions. It's about figuring out how to deal with fear, maybe of other of those unknown conditions, but also of the presenting conditions when information or the experience is not going according to plan and

it's dangerous. So it's like the anxiety before of the unknown. It's the fear during when it's not going according to plan. And then I hear you talking about the need to adapt and then when to push, when to back off, when to adjust, which I think is in and of itself a very important psychological condition. And then the preparation required to be able to deal with the fear and to be able to adjust and adapt. Does this sound right so far? Oh, yeah. I mean, spot on. And that's the interesting thing is the themes that you just mentioned.

It's so common across all walks of life. And, you know, if you're, it's like, what makes a really good story is sort of that kind of the mythological structure, sort of the hero's journey, right, of a movie. But it's like the action or that CGI that everyone's seeing or the kind of the coloring of the story. For me, Big Wave Surfing is sort of just the coloring of, I would say the most extreme version big wave surfing is sort of just the coloring of i would say the most extreme version of these themes you know where there are like life and death consequences of course but it's just they're just elevated versions of what most people might experience daily but not realize that's what their sort of experience like trying to describe a color

to somebody is like pretty difficult if they've ever seen it before. And once you make people aware of it, you know, you're like, Oh, I could see the, the commonality and kind of the crossover of it all. So everybody has their own experience here with what we're talking about, but not everyone surfs waves, but like, if let's talk about the waves in general, like everyone has their own wave that they're trying to be connected to, that they're trying to surf well. And it's totally biggest, tallest ones that we're talking about. But like when you think about that crosswalk from literal huge waves into the everyday

waves, what are some of the everyday things that you're that you pucker up when it comes to like the unknown or you have fear with or it challenges you to adjust well, like that you're preparing for in return? Like, what are some of those for you? Well, no doubt. I think just having my twin daughters, Sen and Willa, has been like kind of that that unknown you know like every time you seem to like figure out a routine you know get them down to sleep or you know fun activities they grow so fast that it's like this constant thing of like being able to adapt and it's scary being a parent sometimes because you love your kids so much and you want the best for them and then you have to know when to be very attentive. And then you also need to let them experience

and learn things on their own. You know, it's okay to make mistakes if you can just get back up from that. And, you know, granted my kids aren't very old yet. You know, they're not even one and a half yet. But every single day is like kind of a new challenge. And, you know, it's like, how can I best set up myself to,

you know, help them manage being a father of a family? And then at the same time, how can you sort of like, be there and be there for them, but allow them to, you know, fall down, okay, get back up, you know, it's like, they have to sort of learn things on their own. So it's, it's like that, in a whole is like the ultimate challenge. And it's an unknown thing, because no, there's no real people have written books about being parents. But until you're a parent yourself, you don't know they're the kids are almost teaching you and, and what you need to learn. And, and so anything that I ever learned from the ocean is directly applied to my kids. And the great thing is, with having my kids recently, like I've become way more calculated, way more methodical, not only in the water, but also on land and how I prepare for these swells.

Like I'm so much more detail oriented now. And when the big day does come, I can kind of relax and let go. And, you know, in some way, I'm learning a lot from my kids, just being a parent. And that's, that's really exciting. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center

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actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason

that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And

a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. Okay. You slipped something in there about mistakes. So I want to go in two part order here. I want to talk about the insight about mistakes and then you're something changed and you're

different now that you've got kids. So I want to, I want to unlock that a little bit. All right. So the first part you said, like you want to encourage them or some form of that to make mistakes, mistakes are okay. As long as you can get up from them. Okay. So that that's a really interesting nuance and insight. Help me understand. What does that mean? Well, I mean, it's not like you're encouraging them to make mistakes, but one thing is for certain, everyone's going to make mistakes along the way. You know, it's not like you're encouraging them to make mistakes, but one thing is for certain, everyone's going to make mistakes along the way. It's not even like bad mistakes in terms of like doing something maliciously bad sort of thing.

Just, you know, maybe you don't have all the information and hindsight's 20-20 and you're like, oh, if I could have, I could have gone back and done this a little different. But sometimes you're, maybe you haven't processed everything that you need to, to make the most informed decision. And, you know, as a kid growing up, it's, you know, the mistakes are maybe I shouldn't touch that because it's hot or, you know, that grass is really itchy when I lay on it, you know, it's something simple like that. Or, you know, maybe I shouldn't bite my sister. It's stuff, little things like that. It's like, I don't know, I just think that as long as you learn from it, and you come away better, you're just going to keep being able to climb that ladder to greater success to being better. And most people, I think, experience something called resistance, which is like the fear of actually just taking the first step in doing something. And then resistance being I made this mistake once, I'll never be in a position to make another mistake. And with a more informed decision,

maybe with hindsight, you could actually make the right call. And it's growth. So if you're not making mistakes, like in my field of stuff, if I'm not falling on a big wave every once in a while, I'm probably not pushing hard enough. But I train so I can handle those falls. Um, and it's scary at first, but in order to get the best out of me,

I got to be able to ride without fear sort of thing. Uh, and in order to ride without fear, you sort of have to experience the unknown a little bit. And that's a mistake from turning on the wrong part of the wave and falling, you know? Yeah, for sure. Do you have an experience in your life where you made a mistake and you weren't sure if you were going to be able to get up? Not necessarily. I feel like I was always taught from my parents, you know, to just learn from my mistakes and to always make right by them, regardless of what it is. And I think, and I've always had this kind of, and maybe my strength and my weakness is being a perfectionist. So, you know, as I've grown up, I've learned how to like utilize being a perfectionist to help me get to where I want to go. But then I've also learned how to sort of be able to let go. Because if you hang on or cling to something too long, it's you're going to stall

and you're going to be stuck or maybe, you know, like riding a wave, you can't force anything, you kind of got to let go of everything around you and just be in the moment and allow things to happen. And without consciously thinking of what you have to do, you just naturally sort of do it. So it's about doing the homework before. And then that leads into the now where you don't, it's like subconscious at that point. And, you know, I think the biggest battle I ever fought with myself was just, you know, allowing myself to let go. Being such a perfectionist would in some ways help me a lot, but then hold me back because you'd get stuck on something when it was time to just move on. There was a concrete moment that I watched, you know, you lived it. It was a hold down that you had at Nazare. And did you not think there that you might not get up even from a heavy hold down

like that? Or maybe there's another hold down that, um, you can bring me into. No, I've never experienced knock on wood. Uh, I've never experienced a wipeout or a situation in the orange, the ocean where I didn't think I was going to be okay from, like, I've always kind of had this confidence that I don't know how to pull it off, but like, I'm going to be fine. You know, like if I ended up in the middle of the ocean, my first thought wouldn't be just give up and float there. It would probably be swim as efficiently and as mellow as I could and just keep on swimming, you know, until I got back to shore, uh, in big waves being held underwater. No, it's a very real fear that, you know, you might not come up, but at the same time, I've never been in a position where I was like,

wow, this is it. I could kind of like, I can't go any longer it was always like oh I'm in this inconvenient situation right now as soon as I get up I'm I'm gonna take a break no one can convince me to go back out I'm gonna eat a burrito and I'm gonna just sit on this boat or jet ski and just chill and I'm good I'm You know, it's like kind of like a mild, it's kind of like just an inconvenient, like sort of moment. And then I usually come back up. And I get on the jet ski, and we drive towards the channel. And I'm like, Oh, no, just take me back out. You know, usually the the motivation and the goal outweighs the, I guess that experience. I'm like, well,

I just want to make that mistake again, sort of thing. And again, I put so much effort into training every single day for these scenarios, that is partially why I've been able to handle certain experiences and not, you know, feel like I was going to die. And not to say that that can't happen. I mean, you know, the best of the best have experienced that. And I don't think it's a matter of time if I'm, you know, smart and calculate enough, and I learned from my mistakes. I think it's just wrong place, wrong time, it just can happen. But I know a lot of big wave riders who've had, you know, tremendous experiences and horrible wipeouts, but have never, you know, you know, faced something like,

you know, thinking they're actually going to die. But again, I'm in a different era of big wave surfing now. Technology has been so useful and so helpful, but I trained like I wouldn't have any of those things. If I wasn't attached to a board, if I didn't have an inflatable vest, if I didn't, you know, even have the foam on my wetsuit to help me bring, bring me to the surface. You know, it's like, you there's one, there's taking the elevator to the top of the skyscraper, and then there's taking the stairs. So I trained to take the stairs, but I always take the elevator when I'm in, in those conditions. And that way, I can retain my energy and focus on my performance and not focus on the surviving part because of

the surviving part I can do. It's just sort of, you know, putting all that into the performance that, um, that'll allow me to ride better, but it's always in the back, you know, it's always kind of like easily unlockable. Okay. You are one of the, if not the best big wave surfer in the world. And I don't say that lightly. Like the things you're doing on waves, the rest of the community is like, how, like, are you kidding me? And so, um, so you've got your respect from your peers. Um, you're an innovator. You're right on the knife's edge. It's beautiful to see what you're doing for your, your family, yourself and the community at large. What, what is holding you back?

What are your, what are the things that get in the way of you continuing to progress the way that you want? Um, I would say, you know, most of that stuff I've sort of been able to work through. I would say the hardest part right now is actually because it's almost impossible to be everywhere all at once, you know, and it's being able to see someplace and not necessarily be there and be like not having FOMO, you know, the fear of missing out. I say it's like it's good to have a little bit of that because then it's like, OK, I want to go there and I want to do it like that way or better, you know. But then that's one thing like right now, it's like hard to be everywhere all at once and not letting you feel like you're behind sort of thing. It's sort of like a competition who can ride the most

big waves necessarily. And when it comes to like actually riding the big waves, you know, I really have been looking outside of my own sort of kind of community of surfers in a way. I've been looking at other places to get inspiration for riding big waves. One of those inspirations is like Travis Rice up in Alaska. And recently I went up there with Travis and got to experience in person what it was like to be in the scenarios he is doing. And that would open my kind of my mind to what is even more possible than what I was just imagining. Because I actually got to see it in person. I got to see the master himself in these mountains and I got to experience

some of that myself too. But a lot of times, like I don't really ever feel like, I feel like my potential in big waves is way greater than where I'm at now. Like I don't even feel close to what I could, I, in my, my own imagination and my own visualization, I could be 10 times gnarlier, you know, and I know it, but there's like, kind of like a process to it. You know, it's sometimes you just kind of gotta, you know, take baby steps in order to get to where you want to go. Cause you all of a sudden you end up in the moment and it's so intense,

you might freeze up a little bit, but it does make what I already do feel easy like what I'm already doing now feels easy and I'm just trying to think of how could I make it not like harder on myself but the experience of flipping and doing these rotations and committing to these big waves and the lines I want to draw it's that little feeling that little moment in between all of that, that feels so freeing and alive. You know, like I feel alive when I'm like the, the chains or the, I'm unbridled. Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I can just throw, throw things in heavy consequential situations and have it come out. And it's like, I have that control to do that. You know what I mean? That insight in a world where people are fatigued from stress and anxiety and a relenting

pace at work and a 24 by seven global economy, like there's a fatigue in our humanity that is, I mean, it's dangerous, right? Like this is not a vibrant way to do life the way most people are living. Right. And I, okay. So, so you said something that's really important, which is like, I'm designing my life to go, go to the hard. And because I know if I do that, then I can, and I get better.

I get some unlocks. I get more familiar. I learn, then I get this feeling of freedom, this unbridled unharnessed, um, freedom. Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, it's like, I do like what I do love about being in the water is you do, I feel in some ways like I'm stepping outside of society's bubble and even the cops can't get me out in the water. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like it's my domain and it's because I've spent, of course, so much time in the water doing it. But it's like, it's just that feeling of being like that freedom, of course. And then when you're trying to do something, but you're also trying to do it and try to get maybe the satisfaction of others or kind of like, wow, that's sick, you know, in surfing and you know this so well is that there's what's considered core and what's considered

not core. And sometimes what's considered core, I question, like that's that's how is that any cooler than doing it this way you know what i mean and it's just this kind of tribal maybe herd mentality like well he thinks it's cool so i'm gonna think it's cool and then everyone just thinks it's cool um and that can hold you back on how you approach a wave because it's like if you're not grabbing rail and a backside barrel and leaning your body in's like if you're not grabbing rail and a backside barrel and leaning your body in this way then you're not really barrel riding but then i watched someone like a mason ho and for people who've never heard of them his surfing is really unique and

completely like you could tell he's not he's not held down by what is correct surfing you know and that's the whole point of surfing is it's your own expression on this canvas you're the paintbrush sort of thing and he'll grab the rail with his front arm it's called slob grab and he'll put his back on there and it's not a traditional technique whatsoever but it just to me always looks so visually stunning because it's it's his own expression and it's not like wow i look just like kelly slater or andy irons or somebody it's his own expression. And it's not like, wow, I look just like Kelly Slater or Andy Irons or somebody. It's, no, that looks like Mason Ho and it's Mason Ho doing it, you know? So it's, I try to really like pull myself back to like, what would feel really good?

And what would, what do I think look cool before I even consider what is cool, you know, or what is like the right way to do it? Cause of course there's certain techniques, you know, it's like in surfing, you want your back leg tucked in and that gives you this control to the surf board and kind of sucks you down. Like bad technique would be having your knee bowed out kind of like a cowboy, but that is like super basic sort of thing um for his like the expression part is like where you put your arms you know mason ho's body is still positioned in the way of the

proper technical way you would have it this way but he's holding this way because he's he's allowed himself to be let go and and have that freedom to like express his body posture a little different even though technically he's still he's doing everything right to to achieve that position but he's not trying to mimic anyone else but his own and um in big waves it's like you have to have this sort of stance and you know you gotta take this sort of line it's like to me i'm like no like you know the rule of thumb in surfing is like unless you're hitting the rule of thumb in surfing is like, unless you're hitting the lip, you're not doing an air. If you're hitting a chop, it's called a chop hop and chop hops are like kid novelty,

like kind of frowned upon sort of thing. Like not considered like legit maneuvers. I'm like, well, it's a different playing field when you're on a 50 foot wave because that chop is six feet tall. And I look at snowboarding and they're hitting they're not turning back up the mountain and hitting the mountain sort of thing they're hitting ledges and using everything on that mountain face to do a maneuver and granted they might actually hit a real legit ramp at one point but they're using little features to do things and that's their

expression on this mountain and for me in big waves i'm like why just go straight over this chop when i can just 360 over it and you know it doesn't change the rest of my wave except it's just this out of the pocket maneuver and you know people are like oh he's just doing chop ops i'm like you do a chop off on a 60 foot wave like there's that really cool moment when you're rotating and you look back at a 60 foot wave. Like there's that really cool moment when you're rotating and you look back at a 60 foot wave and you're looking back at the lip. There's like only a brief moment where you see it and then you're back pointed forward. So I'm getting a perspective or a view of the wave that no one riding big wave will ever see because they're only looking forward. But for a second, I'm seeing the wave face on and I'm making it keep on going, you know, and and that's my expression sort of thing.

So it's not not letting my surfing or my riding in any sport be dictated what people thinks right or wrong sort of thing. I think you just focus on what fundamentally on a technical basis will allow you to do those things, which is, you know, the foundation of what makes good surfing. And then everything on top of that, just your expression. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science.

And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. I know that 99% of people listening won't understand the technical jargon of what you're talking about. But right underneath the surface is the psychological framing coming from a master? Like how much of my environment can I use to create and innovate something that is unique to me, but still is traditionally grounded in the basics? Thank you for that.

And I need to play that back a few times to really grok like how you just did that. But you're pulling variable bits of information and innovating in ways that are unique to you and staying grounded to the base colors of the canvas that you're creating or painting on. I love that. How much of your mind is attending to fear of what other people might think of you? I'd say the natural draw to it is like pretty significant just because there's like the job that I do do is sort of comparison in a way, you know, it's, if I was just had all the money in the world and I would still be living my exact same life right now. Um, but I wouldn't have like sponsors to sponsors to make happy or I would, I wouldn't need the support of the community to see value for my sponsors for me, because I have such a good

following and people enjoy what I do. I get to have make it my job, right. And, and so there's like, it's like, what's gonna be like, you sort of definitely, you know, I'm guilty of sort of leaning into like what other people are doing or, you know, what I'm like, what I think people want to see when in reality, I'm pretty sure everyone that does enjoy really following me just likes to see what I'm doing. You know, it's, it's like probably getting overly analytical and being too much like, what, you know, how can I be better? And instead of thinking outside the box and working on something else that might help supplement it, sometimes you can like, it's like doing a sort of a workout, I'm gonna get better at this one

workout. And you've done it so many times, you're used to it. And at a certain point, you almost have to do a completely other style of training because it's going to be super hard and new. And so that's kind of like in a little bit of a way trying to explain, you know, not getting caught up on one sort of thing. And so when I do, I feel like my best writing, my biggest innovations come when I'm able to separate myself from trying to impress others or trying to do what I think maybe people I look up to or people that have inspired me would think,

you know, and I think that's just a natural draw that everyone sort of has. And whether you read into it a lot or not is one thing. I think it's okay to, I think it's good a natural draw that everyone sort of has and whether you read into it a lot or not is one thing I think it's okay to I think it's good to be aware of it because it kind of like is it's an easy measuring stick to just see where you line up but then you move away and you know I have a lot of friends who don't even care and they're just out doing their own thing and it's awesome but I do see a lot of opportunity in like just having a conversation with you right now, like already got my mind thinking a certain way and, oh, I'm going to do something a little bit different after this. Cause I just picked something up. So I love that aspect of seeing

what other people are doing and being like, I can do that too. You know, the competitive side of it is really good because sometimes that just leads me on to something else. Cause I combine my, you know, imagination with what I've seen. It's like, well, if you do that and then it goes to this, you know, it's, I don't think black and white doesn't exist. I think there's many shades of gray in between. And it's just, you know, even the water sports that i've innovated or i'm trying to innovate or like invent i'm always looking for the gray area that i could see have the most potential for growth but that comes from being able to identify two different sports and then see like okay have that y in there it's like high. Can I do these two different sports?

But what if I put these sports in this particular condition, which is in between these two sports that are at their best? There's a gray area. And then it's like, wait, what if I do this and that? And I changed my equipment there. Now I have something that's high performance because nothing in this gray area was high performance enough for me. You know, it wasn't fast enough.

It wasn't big enough airs. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't fast enough, it wasn't big enough airs, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't my artistic expression that I could do. It's slow, it's maybe lazy for me. So that's the same way I sort of can think about in comparison to others, you know, it's like use it as fuel. But at the same time, I know I stick to what my imagination is sort of telling me. That's what's up. Okay. Slight pivot here. There was in our, in our early conversation in 2016, I mean, seven years have gone by.

It's amazing. This is what you said though. At 22, age 22, I almost feel like I hit a roadblock. I love what I'm doing deeply, but I need a goal that if I won or if I achieved it, I almost feel like I hit a roadblock. I love what I'm doing deeply, but I need a goal that if I won or if I achieved it, I would feel like it was something that I didn't think was possible. I've achieved so much at a young age that it's like kind of this anxiety, like, God, I need some purpose. I need to feel some purpose. When you hear that now, still the same? Has it changed? Totally. I mean, I think, I think the, when I feel like I have a real purpose in front of me,

any anxiety goes away, fear of death, you know, longevity of life, all this like normal human traits to be kind of worried about just completely disappeared. And I'm living in the moment and, you know, the way we perceive time, I've always sort of now I sort of believe that time happens all at once. And it's just the way we're sort of perceiving it, you know. And sometimes time moves really fast when maybe you're too focused on something and things are just going by like in a blink of an eye, you're too you're not aware of your surroundings enough but sometimes when you're too like I'd imagine if you're like you know when I'm on an airplane and I'm like frustrated I'm on an airplane eight hours feels like a long time but when I'm at home eight hours goes by that quick because that's so much going on

right um and I think obviously when you have kids it's a purpose that is indescribable. You don't know until you have kids of your own what it's like to have a true purpose. For me, I never was sort of worried about dying because I'm like, gosh, it's like surfing big waves. It's like if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it's like I'm going to keep going. But when you have kids, for me, it's like, gosh, I want to see their story unfold. I want to be here as much as I can. And that purpose with them gives you this dad strength or mom strength that is like unrivaled.

And I think that's why if I was underwater, I wouldn't be, if I was ever in a scenario where I thought I was going to drown. It's easy to give up on yourself, but it's hard to give up on people that you really love. For me, I wouldn't be fighting to get up necessarily just to save me, but to be with my kids. Selfishly, I just would want to be with them and hanging out and see their story evolve. And now I'm growing up with them again. It is really a rebirth when you have kids, you know, cause you get to experience growing up again from a completely different perspective, finding purpose. I've just begun really good at, you know, always having things to chase after in my own sort of sport. Like, you know, I'd say the landscape of being a professional athlete's

shifted from, okay, sponsors are there for you because you're competing and you're really successful at competitions. Now it's gone so media-based, social media, movies, TV, whatever, basically trying to create, you have to now create something. And for me, I'd rather just be competing, but there's no competitions except for a select few that you can do. And it's not frequent enough. And at a current place I am with my life, I have so much opportunity to, you know, create new waves of riding waves and then challenge myself against these giant waves. It's almost become, I'm almost creating my own world tour that I'm competing on and I'm competing against myself. I'm competing against mother nature. You know, you're never going to defeat mother nature, but you can at times match power with power for a moment, you know, like be in

complete harmony with that chaos of a big wave. And, and so that's my competition sort of thing. And if there's a competition that comes up, I'll answer it. And that is a totally like human controlled, like, okay, you know, you're not competing to be the best you you're competing to impress the judges. And it's a completely different approach to your expression because the judges are looking for a look, you know, they're looking for a style, they're looking for all these sorts of things. So you're trying to impress the judges. And that's why most people don't win competitions much because they're like, I'm going to do it my way. And it's like, yeah, if you want to play the game, and you want to win world titles, you got to figure out exactly what the judges are

looking for. And you got to surf for the judges. You know, you have to be, you kind of, it's not necessarily your own expression of what you think looks good. That's going to get you. It's going, it's going to be, how can I wow the judges the most? And I may not like riding this way particularly, but this is a way that they want to, that they're going to the judges the most. And I may not like riding this way particularly, but this is a way that they want to, that they're going to reward me the most. And so the most, some of the most freeing part of all of this was not having, you know, the competitions to be in and then to basically go out there and have it documented so I can keep my sponsorships. But at the same time, you know, kind of just lean into what I think, what I think looks the best, what for me feels the best. Are you trying to be your

best or the best? Which one? I think if I'm at my best, I'm at the best. That's just my perspective on that. Yeah. Humbly said and agreed. you know, because to them, the best is being better than the next guy. But in my mind, the potential I know that I could reach is stuff that no one's ever done. And it's unimaginable. And it's all unimaginable until it's actually done. So if I could be my best, what I know I could be in my head, then there's just no conversation. And I'm not saying I'm there yet, but what I, what I do know is that in the sports that I choose to do in, in any field I choose to be in, I, I, I can understand, okay, this is the current best where, where it, what is actually possible. Like this is where we've reached so far in a physical aspect, but like mentally, you know, you know, this is where

we could actually go. And so if I can achieve that, then, you know, at least in my own heart, I know that I'm the best in the world and I don't necessarily need to be told that I am, you know, cause I'm at the end of the day, you are competing against yourself. Even in competition, you know, you got to serve the judges, but if I'm at my best in a competition, especially in big waves, I feel like it's mine to lose. And that's just how I feel, you know, deep down and in big ways, if you don't ride, if you don't have the wave, you're not going to win. So there is a luck involved to it. So, um, that's, it's just, it makes it exciting. You know, I'm going to use this word provocatively, not insensitively, but much of the world thinks that you're crazy. What you do is absolutely at the edge of sanity.

And I just want to know how you respond to that. You know, it just almost seems like, not to be provocative with this, but it seems like a joke sort of thing. Because to me, I feel completely normal. You know, like, I feel I feel like I know a lot more people that do the same thing that I do that may in fact be unhinged. But for me, I just feel like the only reason why it seems crazy is because, you know, something what I do is so far removed from how they live their lives. And I think if they grew up the way that I grew up and in the conditions that I've spent so much time, it's just the natural progression. You know, there's nothing that's reckless about it. It's like very methodically, you know, approached and thought out to me, I would say it's great. I mean, how do you run a billion dollar business, for example, you know what I mean?

Like, that's crazy. You know, it's like, it's, someone's always gonna think it's something's crazy that they're not, I would say, really informed on or if they're not actually doing it themselves, because it just seems like such a massive mountain to climb um and uh and so yeah i don't know i feel completely like a normal person i think my advantage is kind of like my you know undying support for myself you know like i when i was a kid i always told myself i i will never like quit the only time I will kind of like let something sort of go is because it's like okay you're now you're beating your head against a brick wall and it's like why not take a step back and realize you can actually just walk around

the brick wall you know um and it might take that reset but like you know kind of quitting just to quit because it's too hard is never an option. It's just kind of like taking a step back. And that's how baby steps have always been my approach in everything that I do. And it all sort of adds up. And now the baby steps look really big to everyone else, but it was always that natural sort of progression. And I've just been doing a natural progression for consistently for a long time. And, you know, I think more than anything, it's about consistency rather than putting a huge amount of effort for a short period of time.

That is cool, man. What marks the good life? When you think about the good life, what does that feel like? I'm living the good life right now. You know, it's like, gosh, I get to, if big waves exist, I get to go chase after big waves. I got an awesome wife. I got amazing kids. I live on Maui. You know, I think materialistically, you're always like, it would be great if you had this or that. But then again, I don't feel like I need any of that.

It's like, the only stuff that I usually want that's materialistic is helping me become a better athlete. It's kind of tools, you know, it's like, if we adjust this board slightly, it's going to help me, just going to help me get to what the feeling that I'm chasing after. But the good life, I'm living it right now. And it's, it's almost so good that I want it to last forever. And it never ends. And, you know, life is short and sweet. And so got to enjoy it while I can. But, you know, it's like, I'm in the position now where I'm like,

can this just be forever for all of eternity? Just this right now? Because it's perfect. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Let's jump right back into the conversation. So what does the average training day look like for you? So let's talk about the preparation. And of course, I'm more interested in how you're training your mind to be focused, to be clear, to be flexible when it's not going according to plan. I am interested in how you go about building those skills. Now, like before when I was just, you know, didn't have

kids and, you know, it was able to just be on the water all day, every day, all day long. You know, there's like one thing that I've learned if I've learned it. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Hold on. How are you dealing with the kids in the background? I love it. I think this is hilarious. My wife has her hands full right now. We're having a serious conversation about whatever. And then you've got in the background, I can barely hear it, but I'm sure you can really hear it. You know, like to your happier distress. I can't tell what it is kids, but. It's probably a combo. Yeah, right. How are you managing that noise with focusing in this moment? I, my wife is, uh, I would say more equipped and, you know, she's, she's a better version

than I am just as a person in general, but also as a parent. And so they're, the girls are in good hands right now. And I can tell by kind of their shrieking, they're kind of probably tired, almost ready for their nap, but then they're kind of probably tired, almost ready for their nap, but then they're also having fun and they like to make a lot of noise. Um, and maybe one bit, another one, um, or, you know, one fell down and it set them off and they're not like in distress or anything. It's just kids being kids sort of thing. And, uh, how, how are you managing it in like, in like go right in your mind. Is it like, oh, no?

Or is it like, oh, that's interesting. They're in good hands. Or is it like, oh, it's not important. Who cares? This is my life and we're good. Well, it's multitasking for sure. I know exactly what I'm talking about here in the conversation. But based on the screams, the background, I can sort of already just tell

what kind of situation they're in. I can almost imagine, visualize exactly what's going on. The thing is, is I just like in a big way spot, I understand, okay, all the doors are closed right now. The kids are probably just overtired because it's, you know, nine o'clock here in Hawaii and it's almost their nap time. You know, it's like, they're just being kids at this point. My wife is there and, you know, and she's the best mother in the world and she, she's already handled this situation and the girls are happy again. How much of the tension that you felt, and I'm going to move off this, I promise, but I think this is materially important was trying to manage your commitment

here to, you know, like thinking well and having a good experience for our community that's listening versus managing like the tension in the other room. Like, was there any, was that an issue for you or was that like, no, that was not zero. The reason why is because it comes down to what you can control. And, and then also just understanding the landscape of where you're at, you know, like kind of the, the, the battlefield, you know, with your kids. Uh, it's like, I know they're in safe hands, you know, I can let go, you know, if I'm like,

kind of like an overbearing parent, I would be like, hold on one second. I got to check. And everything was fine. And they're like, oh, no, it's all good. I just know my living room so well that in my head, in the background, all that processing, I'm like, they're totally fine. Like I said, if we were in Bali, it'd be a completely different scenario. That's right. And this is, I think the big takeaway for me is that you're, you understand really well, this is part of your operating system in life is what matters as a, as a primary and

what matters as a secondary feature or function and what primary safety of your kids. Secondary is like our experience, but that, that is, that is not even that important to you because you're dealing with what's controllable and that gives you this ease through life because you're like, oh no, no, no. I'm focusing on the things I can control. I'm assessing danger quickly and accurately. I use my imagination. I know the scenario.

It's good. And that's just a distraction for somebody maybe. But for me, like I'm here with you and that's actually okay. What's happening in the room? I'm here with you. And that's, that I think is a bigger insight aha moment than, well, we couldn't have planned for it. So it's pretty cool. But that's a, that philosophy or philosophical way of going through life, I think has led you or has been paramount to lead you to be one of the greatest waterman sports people on the planet, highly regarded as one of the, the, you know, almost a legendary talent. I'm not sorry. Um, generational talent as a water person. So that was cool. I really

appreciated that. So thank you. No problem. And I mean, just to touch on a little more of that, it's just interesting because I used to stress out a lot about, gosh, to be able to battle, I would say the world, not in terms of like what you can do on the water with all these different sports. There's only so much time in the day to do all these sports. And ideally, it's like, or not even ideally, but like, I guess in an anxious way, you would be like, I'm going to just do all the sports every single day in a row. So I like know that where I stand in terms of like my performance level and what other people are doing, because easy to see what incredible things people are doing around the world with social media and all that now. And then it's realizing that it's like, you know, this is what I realized when I had kids was like, you could spend four hours in the water, you know, kind of passively doing the sport, because it's hard to maintain a level of focus to go to the next level for four straight hours. Like it's good to have time on the water, no doubt, but you're almost better

off doing a lot shorter time in the water that is much more focused. If I did just an hour or even 45 minutes, maybe even less, 30 minutes in the water, I could probably get more out of that session than if I knew I was going to be out for four hours. Because even subconsciously, you kind of go, well, I still have time. Whereas, you know, when you don't have the luxury of time, you're like, okay, I did this maneuver. I'm going into this. Okay. Where's that wave? And you're just like, you're, you're maximizing your brain power into that sort of thing. So it's like overcoming that anxiety of like not being on the water as much as I'd love to, cause I'm, you know, helping raise

two little girls. Um, that doesn't bother me anymore because the time I not being on the water as much as I'd love to, because I'm, you know, helping raise two little girls. That doesn't bother me anymore because the time I do spend on the water is much more potent and I get way more out of it. And since I've had my girls, my level of writing and all my sports have gone 10 times better. And that leads me into talking about, I would say, the visualization side of things, you know, like being your, your mind really can't tell the difference between doing it in real life and actually

just visualizing it. And when I'm on airplanes to go to these big wave spots, or not even go to these big wave spots, but just traveling in general, I'll put myself in a precarious situation in my head. And I'll have triggers like a certain song that'll help me get there, get really focused and visualize. And you know, when you're, the one thing that always annoys me is like, sometimes you'll be, and we all do it, you know, where you just kind of blank out and you're just kind of staring, but you're not looking at anything. You're just in your head. And so it'd be like, dude, you're zoning out. It's like's like dude you just ruined it like you know and being able to handle not allowing the outside world to like penetrate into that so that's been like a fun exercise too you know it's like people are like you're zoning out and not letting them

affect it in a way because i'm like i'm on to something right now i've visualized at a point where on an airplane my palms will get sweaty and i won't even be riding a big wave or I'll start, my heart rate will go up and I'll hyperventilate. And if I can run a scenario over and over and over and over again to the point where that doesn't happen, when I'm actually there in real life, it feels like deja vu. So it's kind of like making deja vu on your own, creating it. And then when you get out there, it doesn't feel hard at all it's like oh i've been here before even though this is the first time i've ever physically done it i mean one thing uh like talking about letting go and control you know if you've ever been on an airplane and you're like coming down you're you're gonna be late for your next flight and

my buddy might be freaking out and it's like there's nothing to freak out over i've already thought about okay if we do make the flight great, if we don't, there's an airport hotel here, the next flight will be at this time. And in, in order to like get control of that anxiety, I often kind of lean on what I can control. Like, you know, you mentioned earlier. Yeah. So contingency planning is a big part of your prep. Is that fair? Okay. I would say it puts my mind at ease. If anything, it's like, I could do this, I could do that. I could do that. Okay. That's out of my control. So don't even worry about it. It's a best practice for cognitive behavioral training from a psychological approach is

contingency planning. However, there is a thin line. Too much contingency planning prevents us from actually going and it can actually bleed into preventing us from going and it can also create some anxiousness. You're talking about using your imagination to see later. And performance imagery is a grounded first principle in psychology to use your imagination, to see a future state that doesn't exist and to see it in as many different angles and positions and contexts as you possibly can. How much time do you spend in a disciplined way? And I don't mean like I'm walking down the street doing imagery or I'm driving my car doing imagery, but like in a disciplined way where you're using your mind

to see the future. I would say the hardest part is not doing it. I would say at every waking moment sort of thing, my mind is so fast and active. Like if I just sit on the couch and I'm just sitting there and watching my girls play and just sit on the couch and I'm just sitting there and, you know, watching my girls play and just making sure everything's good, I'll totally just like start visualizing, like, you know, it could be a number of things could be on water activities. It could be like an invention that I want to, you know, incorporate into what I'm riding. And I'd say my biggest challenge is the, is not visualizing, like sometimes allowing the mind to actually rest. You know, I've always had really active dreams, like very lucid dreams constantly.

And so like I've found if I can really just exist and just like feel the stillness and appreciate my surroundings and not think or trying to not think in a way. It's like just looking at, I'll do this exercise where it's like, in order to separate my mind from a million ideas that I have, or trying to get into a really like, I would say, comfortable place where I feel like I have a clean slate. It's like picking images or it's picking things out and saying it out loud as quick as I can. So if I'm looking outside, I see a green palm tree and the leaves are blowing Northwest direction and the sky is blue, but there is some clouds and a possibility of rain over in Pukalani.

Like I'm looking around and I'm picking things. That house is gray. You know, I just saw a bird pick a flower over here and that flower is orange and it's standing on kind of like an empty branch and doing it as quick as I can. And that puts me into my scenario or into the landscape that I'm in, the area I'm in. And then I do that for a couple of minutes and all of a sudden I stop and now I feel like I see everything, but my mind isn't controlling everything. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm just absorbing and I can take everything in.

It's a cool practice because technically what you're doing, it's a present moment focus without assessment, without analyzing, without interpreting. It's just a present moment focus. And if you're doing it in nature, there's an extra layer of benefit. But what you're doing is you're quieting down what's called your default mode network. And the default mode, just to be a nerd here, the default mode is constantly checking, am I okay? Are we okay?

Is this okay? Totally. Which is like at the, right at the, it's the core seed of suffering, you know, like self focusing, am I okay? Like at this right at the, it's the core seed of suffering, you know, like self-focusing am I okay? And you're quieting that down with a deep focus that doesn't require analysis. And that's a, that's a really cool entryway into a calmer mind, a more eloquently focused mind on the task at hand rather than try to protect or persevere.

Yeah. And that's been, um, that's been really beneficial. Uh, I would say really helpful just to like, right before I do something like ride a big wave or, you know, maybe it's been a long day and, you know, you feel kind of the weight of it on your shoulders and your mind feels overwhelmed. Um, so I do, I don't do it. I only do it when I sort of feel like I'm into that. Cause I do like when my mind's really active, cause I'll get, I'll get onto these kind of roles and I'll be like, I'll be getting all this information in my head. It feels like it's being placed there.

And I'm like, I got to write this down, you know, cause this is like key details. I don't want to forget. And then I'll put it to the side and then I can like move on as well. Um, okay. Let's go back. Let's go back to imagery really quickly. Do you, do you spend time like closing your eyes and seeing excellence later? Do you, is that a practice you do or is that not part of your routine? Well, so like my routine, I would say I, I'll put myself, I try to put myself in multiple scenarios, the outcome being really good. And once I kind of get comfortable with the outcome, I will kind of confront what could happen and how I would get out of it. So it's the difference between, all right, I got this wave and I'm in this giant barrel. And the unpredictably

unpredictability of being in a giant barrel is it may collapse on you it may crunch on you and you've done everything right you were in the perfect spot it was just the wave that did something that you couldn't see coming um and so i like i made it through that chandelier that big gnarly cavern and then what would happen if i got hit in the face and i went underwater and that's where you get that anxiety and that sweaty palms and underwater how would I react like I would be holding my breath and I would just be like how would I allow myself to process everything sort of thing and then okay I would hop on the sled what if we lost the jet ski okay this is what I would do so I wouldn't get hurt no one else would get hurt but how could we get the jet ski oh it's lost for good okay let's go around

this way and come on the rocks and you know And I will do both ends so that nothing seems unpredictable or not even unpredictable, but nothing comes by surprise. And I think oftentimes we focus on what we want to happen exactly. But in an unpredictable situation like big wave surfing, everything's going to happen at one point. Finding Master is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset.

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going according to plan? I'd say it's like 70, 30, 80, 20, you know, I will definitely focus on the, what I want to happen, you know, and like how I want to happen, but I, I'm not afraid to necessarily just hop back into the same scenario and be like, what if it didn't work out? Like, how would I get out of it? Because, you know, it's not like falling on a giant ramp necessarily. And or like falling, doing a hitting a big jump and landing on the ground, and you could just sort of lay there. The moment you fall on a big wave, or just, you know, in most ocean conditions, you're going to keep going. And big waves in particular, you know, it's like you fall and then the ride after the ride begins. The most violent part happens and you might have already injured yourself. And then you get slammed on the bottom and then that wave goes by and then

you have another wave. And then you have to think exit strategies, you know, it's like, okay, like having kind of an arsenal of options in your head. So if you're confronted with that situation, you don't think. It's just sort of like, oh, yeah, this is the right thing to do. This was the right call. Okay, sacrifice the board right now because it might be me attached to the board being sacrificed. And then it's just a case by case scenario. And a lot of times I never experienced any of that.

And I often think it's because somehow in this universe, in this matrix, I've already experienced it in my head. So I'm almost tricking the game and it's like, I can just avoid it. And I would say a lot of times when I ride big waves, I might only fall once per session, maybe less, maybe none. You know, I've had sessions where I don't even fall and I ride at my absolute limit and it's just because I've I just so much confidence in how I'm going to ride that I don't make silly like blunders where oh I hit a chop and I didn't see it coming it's like no I always knew there was going to be a chop there or this is a possibility to land not perfectly um and then there's other sessions where you just fall like five or six times. But then again, it's like, I've experienced it in my head already that it doesn't feel unknown anymore.

You know, the fear of the unknown is what stops you from wanting to go. But once you already kind of know it, um, you're like, okay, it's not that bad. You know, I've been there, done that. Would you say that the fear of no, the fear of the unknown stops you from going? It's using your imagination to help you become familiar with what the unknown could become that allows you to go for it more often. Yeah, that's accurate. Because it comes down to belief too. Do you believe you could actually do something like that? Because it's half the time it's battling with what you would perceive other people would think was possible sort of thing.

At least that's what holds me back sometimes. Okay, this, I'm so glad we're talking about this because eventually you get to feeling, feeling what it feels like to be on the knife's edge, right? To be right at the edge of your limit of something. But this little thing here is two things that are, I think, are just for our community to embrace this part of it. Because I think people have a hard time understanding like, well, what does this have to do with me? And I'll just pause and say, you are becoming someone. And seeing the best version of yourself without any physical consequences is a skill. And seeing how you want

to navigate a conversation with your children, a supervisor, a peer, how you want to present, whatever the thing is, this is free. And it's a skill that can be enhanced. And so here's my excitement is that when I was walking home from school, it was like a 15 minute walk from school to the house and on the sidewalk, and then there'd be bushes. And I'd imagine that bush is a section and I'd float over it in my, in my mind. So I'm actually, I'm not closing my eyes. I'm walking up a hill, floating in my imagination over a bush, you know, pulling in underneath like a tree. I know you've done this as well.

Oh, of course. Okay. So then I was like, this really helps. Cause then I somehow felt more familiar in those kinds of environments later. Right. And I'm using my imagination the best way. And then when I got sophisticated, I closed my eyes and I would, I would, I can feel it. But what I really struggle with is like, can I actually drop into that type of wave and

commit a bottom turn as heavy as I see somebody like you doing it? Can I do that? And, and that's like, even in my imagination, I'm trying to sort that out. And so you too do that as well. Oh, absolutely. You know, it's like, I would say there's no, there's no easy path. Usually there's a lot of this navigation to trying to, I think walking things out for sure.

You know how you're using the bush as your imagination. I will literally go in the yard and walk things out. Like, what does that mean? Like if I'm, I'll mix imagining and then also like the visualization part with actually moving my body so like it's funny because i will catch myself doing it or someone will mention that i'm doing it i'll like it's either that hover hang for the barrel but i'll also do my arm position for a turn so like if i if i'm just walking straight and there's a wall i'll like kind of turn my body and see where my front hand is. And then I'll go to the top and I'll put my hand and

I'll sweep my bottom hand. So it's lower than, you know, I'm a regular foot. So swoop it lower than my left hand and my left hand will raise and that'll keep the nose out of the water and blah, blah, blah. So the point is, is like, there's like, I feel like there's just so many stages and so many levels that you can sort of like keep falling back on if you're having a hard time feeling it. Like, sometimes you can really feel something and you don't have to like do that helicopter view. You don't have to walk it out. You can just like be there. And other times, like you have a goal and I would say the resistance part of you is holding you back so much that you can't even get started. So it's like, how do you just keep

dumbing it down to the point where it just gets almost not even what you're going after. It's just so simple. It's like, what would it be like just to ride a wave right here? And I'm not visualizing it. Like I'm not imagining it. I'm almost just actually just doing it. And then that imagination comes naturally from body movement, you know? Okay. So limits. I want to go back to this one more time just quickly, which is what do you think the limits that most people like, what are the things that hold most people back? What do you think those are? The limits on things is, I guess, for me, it's just been fear of the unknown, letting that resistance stop you from just taking the first step. And then, you know, I think if you want to become truly great at something, it's really important to be able to step over the edge just a little bit, because it's like in developing equipment for me to ride. You can, you know, there's taking baby steps,

but then there's also being able to maybe overshoot just a little bit and then just reel it back in. And because it's easier to go backwards than it is to like punch forward. And if you can like, if you're at a point where you're standing on the beach and the waves are significantly bigger, but you've done all the training, you've done your homework, but you still feel like you can't get off the sand. It's, but, but you know, you can do it. That's the point when you're like,

you almost got to turn everything off and go for it because you have to just have faith in yourself. And I think it's really important to, to have that sort of level of, you know, almost a little bit of cockiness in yourself, you know, like, you know, you have to, you have to be willing to cross that line in the sand. And then maybe that line moves forward, and maybe you realize you can come back. But until you do that, you're not going to know what, what your potential is. And oftentimes, when people do step over that, that fearful edge,

just a little bit, they realize, Hey, the water's just fine. Like, Oh, now I see another line in the sand that's way in front of me. Like, Oh, I can get over there. And what was I thinking? Not having to do that. But most people don't take enough risk, you know? Um, and, and I don't mean like get on a motorcycle and go over the speed limit kind of risk. I mean, like, you know? And, and I don't mean like get on a motorcycle and go over the speed limit kind of risk. I mean, like, you know, you know, basically telling their employer that, Hey, look, I can do this next job better than anyone else. And I should maybe be in that position,

even though it's like you're in a comfortable position, you know, if you want to kind of move up, you have to be sort of willing to be, I think, you know, Laird Hamilton told me this once. He's like you're in a comfortable position. You know, if you want to kind of move up, you have to be sort of willing to be. I think, you know, Laird Hamilton told me this once. He's like, you have to learn how to become your own best friend. And as soon as you can become your own best friend, because most people are enemies of themselves. As soon as you can become your own best friend, then you got your back all the way.

And that's all you need. Because not everyone will always be there for you. And if anything, everyone else is trying to struggle with the same thing you're doing. So yeah, becoming your own best friend is a lot of hard work, but it's possible. Oh God, that's so good. Okay. So in one or two words, okay. Your responses are one or two words here as a reductionist, as hard as it is for both of us. How do you answer this? It all comes down to doing what you love and having fun. I'm going to, this is going to be an explanation because I just said those words that I told you, but I'm going to explain why it's like, you know, everything, the most cliche things are often

pretty true. Um, like never give up, love what you do, always have fun. But there's so much more, they're, they're not as broad as you really think, you know, they're really like, it's internal. And it's the truth. If you really love what you do, you don't feel like you're working hard at it, it's something you want to do. If you're having fun, you know, you don't, you're basically excited for what comes next. And you're looking forward to it know, you don't, you're basically excited for what comes next. And you're looking forward to it because you don't want it to end. And then never giving up is basically the byproduct of those two first things. It's just, you don't give up because A, you love what you do and you're having so much fun. It's giving up's not even

crosses your mind. You're just, this is what you love to do. And so when people are like, how do you handle these big saves? And how do you not give up and quit? It's like, I just really like what I do and I'm having a lot of fun. So until it's not fun, I'm going to keep, you know, doing it. Where do you want to send people to, for, to watch the life of Kai, to follow along with what you're doing and um you know where do you want to drive people to if people think I'm crazy I went up to Alaska with Travis Rice and I got to snowboard these mounds which I guess maybe was crazy but watching what he can do on these big mounds makes what I do in the ocean seem tame like just just the level of expertise. I learned a lot from Travis

and we made a episode for Life of Kai. It's on Red Bull TV right now. It will be on YouTube soon, but look up Life of Kai. Kai and Travis go to Alaska. And, you know, if there's one take, if there's a few takeaways from that trip with Travis that I really learned

is how quiet he's able to get right before he does something amazing and how focused he's able to get and how he's able to turn off the noise around them so it's like that exercise I was talking about like picking things out and getting into that headspace he can switch that on like a light and he's a master of his craft, so it's no problem. And then basically leading into that, the foundation of he did all the homework. He knows the line. He knows where you might die. He knows where the crevasses are in the cliffs

and where the slough might turn into an avalanche. He knows all that. But when he gets onto that mountain, it's all background. And he's able to be that paintbrush on this massive canvas and watching that and watching him do stuff and ride mountains that you know if you fall you die was like next level because at least in the ocean when you're riding a big wave no matter how big it is it's it's water and you still there you can still come up you, buried by an avalanche. You're probably not coming up back in those mountains. So, you know, I, I, it's, it was one of the top three trips of my life was going there. Cause it was that eyeopening experience. And I hope it comes across for

people that watch this episode because you, they literally took me a fish out of water. That's awesome. So life of Kai, um, I it's awesome. And I see that you're doing it. You're learning to do a double black foot. Does that mean that you're, you're trying to sort out how to double black, you know, on a wave? Totally. I mean, that's what Travis Rice does in Alaska. I mean, it was like, you know, to me, I'm like, if he can do a double backflip on, you know, a big mountain, why can't I do it on big wave a lot of times the air he's flying he's going 50 to 80 feet flying through the air and that's as tall as the waves I'm riding so I'm like if he can do that like what's holding us back from doing it

on a big wave well what's holding us back from doing it on a big wave is it's the wave is moving quite quick but then also you don't have the same ramp every time and the hardest part about trying to do a double rotation on a big wave has literally been getting the opportunity you know you can't just go out there and build the ramp and practice because you can practice on smaller waves but it's just not the same until you're on a big wave and you see that giant lip coming at you and you're like do i really want to hit it and you end up going for it and i've gotten close like i've landed doubles out the back i've landed on the wave but i've never ridden out you know and uh it's one of those things where you know it's consistency and there's going to be consequences i'm going to get worked because of it

and that's just part of that's part of the journey. I feel like the moment I land one, I'll be able to land them all the time. It'll be like stepping over that edge. Then all of a sudden, there's a new line in the sand. It's like, well, if you can do a double, you could probably do a triple, you know? Kai, you're a legend for a reason. Thank you again. And I hope that we can be a resource and a support for you, whatever you're doing. So let us know. And then I want to encourage our community to head over to Kai Lenny, K-A-I-L-E-N-N-Y, all social, all the links will be in there and check out the life of Kai. It's epic. Thank you. Thanks for your time. It was fun. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges

and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only if you're looking for meaningful support which we all need one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional so seek assistance from your health care providers again a sincere thank you for listening

until next episode be well think well keep exploring