Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Putting Principles Into Action | NFL Legend, Jim Zorn

Episode Date: December 26, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Jim Zorn, a former NFL quarterback and coach who currently serves as head coach and general manager of the Seattle Dragons of the second incarnation of the XFL.Jim was the starting quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks during their first eight seasons as a franchise and is a Seattle legend.He’s known as one of the more prolific scrambling quarterbacks of his day and was the second Seahawk ever inducted into the team’s “Ring of Honor” in 1991.Jim also coached in the NFL from 1997 to 2012.In this conversation we discuss what led Jim to football, what he learned about the mental side of the game, and how to move past caring what others think of you.In Jim’s words: “I had to be willing to be embarrassed if I was going to try to get better.”That’s a really cool thought and Jim has so much wisdom and insight to share in this conversation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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are neither right nor wrong. They're just feelings. Just because you have a feeling doesn't make it a fact. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery. And what we're wanting to do is understand, like, what is it that they're searching for?

What is their psychological framework? A fancy phrase for how do they make sense of the world around them? How do they explain why things happen, how things happen? What is their relationship with the world? What is their purpose in life? All of that stuff is psychological framework. So we really want to dig to best understand we can how they organize their inner life. And then we also want to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life. When you head to davidprotein.com slash Finding Mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, Protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash Finding Mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Jim Zorn, a former NFL quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks. And he was the second person inducted into the Ring of Honor. And essentially, the Ring of Honor is, you know, in basketball arenas, you'll see jerseys hung from the rafters. Well, this is very much the same thing. It's like

that core nucleus of people that have really shaped the DNA of the organization. So Jim was the starting quarterback for the Seahawks during their first eight seasons as a franchise, and he's just a Seattle legend. Jim also coached in the NFL from 1997 to 2012, primarily with quarterbacks. And in this conversation, we discuss what led Jim to football, which is really interesting for, you know, if you're not interested in football, that doesn't matter. Like this is like, what are the elements that are sit underneath the surface of why you're doing what you're doing? Or maybe as you're trying to sort out what it is that you want to do in the next phase

of your life, what are the elements that were important to him that led him down the path? And maybe you can do the same investigation with yourself. And so we want to understand also for him, because the quarterback has a big part of the mental game, like how did he manage that? And how did he move past caring what others thought of him? And so in Jim's words, I had to be willing to be embarrassed if I was going to try to get better. That's a really cool thought.

It's so contemporary and modern right now. It was for him back in early 90s, and it is still relevant for us today. And he's got so much wisdom and insight to share in this conversation. I'm really excited to introduce you guys to him. And with that, let's jump right into the final Finding Mastery conversation of 2019 with Jim Zorn. Jim, how are you? I'm well. Thank you. I appreciate being here. Always great to be in the same room and just having a conversation. I feel the same way about you. Like, I feel like when we see each other, it's this instant kind of connection and appreciation. And, you know, it has very little to do with me for you about your history and your legacy and you

know your body of work which is world-leading like extraordinary it's just about the way you present yourself and carry yourself that I'm always attracted to well I don't know what what that what that would be except I really am interested in what you're doing and how you do it. And, uh, so I would just love to puppy dog you and all in, in all aspects, because I know that you're not here every single day. You have so many other adventures. Uh, those are the things I'm always curious about to get detail from those things. Oh, cool. Yeah. Well, let's talk about them. Thank you for that. That's a kind compliment coming from somebody who's been in the trenches and really understands what it

means to get on the edges of performance. So not lost on me. Thank you. Let's start. Where did you start with football football started for me when i was a sophomore in high school i was 15 years old oh late and relatively late and a friend said hey instead of going out for cross country this year because that was my freshman year let's and i was not a good runner let's go out for football and And I said, okay. And the only experience I've had, I had before that was just throwing the ball around in the street with neighbor, with neighbors. I didn't play any flag. I didn't play any organized football, uh, beforehand. Uh, it was just, uh, lining up for the first time I was going to be a receiver and a DB for the sophomore football team.

So you didn't grow up with this thought like, I'm going to be a Hall of Fame athlete. One day I'm going to be a pro. One day I'm going to be an elite athlete, whatever. You didn't have any of that growing up. No, I never saw that. I never saw athletics as a future i just saw athletics as something you play and enjoy uh in the moment okay so that probably has to do with the way that your parents raised you right they helped establish that early

framework well that that's a good it's that's a good thought because my parents did not have enough money, basically, to take me around and have me join different organizations or from Little League Baseball. I played about a month of Little League baseball, and I wasn't very good. So my mom said, I'm not going to sit here and watch you play in the seventh inning. You're out. So mom was pretty intense? Well, she wasn't intense. She just, I believe, just wanted us to play. She didn't grow up with any organized sports, and she got married very young, right out of high school. And she had

all of us, she had three kids before she was 21. Right? Wow. So, and my dad worked at General Motors his whole life. And I think that they just kind of hunkered down and they were raising a family and we got to do, uh, a few little things, but anything that we did when it came to, when it came to playing or, uh, sports that was play to them, that was not a future, uh, development. Okay. So when you weren't getting playtime, that was the reason you're out. Not because you weren't skilled. Well, I wasn't that skilled and I didn't have, I didn't necessarily have the right equipment either. I'll give you an example. Here's just

a little bit of equipment. So when I, when I played little league and I still have this baseball glove, I had a glove that had five fingers on it. And this little one inch little web, that was the baseball glove. My parents bought me to, to play little league with. Wait, but that's. And it's not, and that wasn't because. Oh, it was like a catcher's mitt? No, it was just a mitt that was probably not very expensive. Oh God. So it wasn't a real, it wasn't, it wasn't a glove. You, you know, everybody's talking about, you know, you build your pocket. It didn't have a pocket. It just sort of, the ball just sort of splatted. And then, uh, I'll never forget, you know, some things create indelible images in your mind.

I wanted a Voight football with leather laces for a Christmas gift. And my mom was into, you know, my mom really felt like we should have a lot of gifts to open up. And for her, the Voight football was, it's going to be expensive. And she didn't want to give me a Voight football with leather laces. So she bought me, and I'm using these names because I'll never forget them. It was a Penn football, P-E-N-N, and it was rubber and had, and the laces were just embossed on theed on the rubber or it was vinyl, you know. And so we went out. I was highly disappointed because that's the one, you know, if I had one gift, that's the gift I wanted to throw around because we played in the street a lot.

How old were you? 13. Okay. Probably 12 to 14, somewhere those couple of years. I want to learn. Okay. So you had your hopes up, right? And you really wanted this thing. And maybe you're led to believe in some way, maybe it was going to be possible, but financially ended up not being the choice your mom made. And you know, you didn't get get it how did you deal with that disappointment going back to that young 13 14 year old i i really uh i think for a kid that age i struggled because uh part of

it was the embarrassment of having to take my pen football out there and play with all the guys because it wasn't a real football in my mind. And, and two, uh, I knew, I knew it wasn't going to last because those other footballs lasted for a while. They were all going to wear out, but that other one was going to last for a while. We're going to be able to play games. And sure enough, two days, I think, after we started, I brought it out and it popped when it hit a rosebush. It hit a rosebush. I didn't necessarily throw it in on purpose, but there were, you know, we played in the street. So if the ball bounced and went into a neighbor's yard, which it did, it got into a rosebush and that was it. So how did you deal with, so you're disappointed.

Yeah. Okay. How did you deal with the disappointment? And then how did you have the, I don't know, courage to bring it out? Those two things are interesting. how you did it then is because I think that early in our life, we establish frameworks and very rarely do people upgrade their frameworks because it takes a lot of work to do that. I would assume that you've upgraded many of your frameworks based on your inquisitive nature,

based on the high pressured environments that you've been on or been in and your deep desire to improve. But I'd like to know the early framework. Maybe you haven't changed on this one, but maybe you've had, you've had on or been in and your deep desire to improve. But I'd like to know the early framework. Maybe you haven't changed on this one, but maybe you've had, you've had three or four iterations. That's a good question. I think one of the things that I had to do then, and I might do that now is I store the information, you know, just kind of say, okay, uh, I asked for this, I got this right. And that, and, uh, I had to learn, uh, to say, you know, okay, am I disappointed? I had to be honest with myself and say, yep, I'm disappointed. And then I stored that information. I didn't necessarily know what is

a kid about how to handle that kind of information. We don't. So I know I didn't, but I remember probably storing it. What did you store? I stored the idea that I didn't get what I really wanted for a Christmas gift. I got something that I could use, but it wasn't that one thing. It wasn't an airplane or it wasn't something outrageous, and it was something I would use, and I didn't get it. I did get something resembling the exact thing, right? And so that's all I had. So I had to go out and use that, or my choice was not to play. And I think even from an early age, I just had to be willing to face, if you will, the embarrassment, or in my mind, the embarrassment of having just something that wasn't quite up to speed. I re I absolutely remember the very same thing when it came to surfing, because I went out and surfers did not have butch haircuts, you know, and I had a butch haircut because at my school you had to have a really short haircut, uh, to play sports. But this was the time when long hair was really in. And it was

a fashion and a staple amongst almost every boy in America. You just had to have long hair. And I had a butch and I had to go and I went surfing for the very first time. And I had this board. I could do everything just to almost just drag it. You know, guys are surfing, doing all kinds of stuff. And all I had was this massive, thick, it would be a great stand-up paddleboard today. It was that kind of big. And I had to learn how to surf. And I just had to be willing to be embarrassed

if I was going to participate for a while to try to get better. I want to just pause there because that thought is so powerful. Like I, like if we sophisticate that up a little bit, right, which would be something like, you know, you've got to just have the vulnerability and the courage to explore and to whatever, whatever. Like you can make it, we can use big words to make it sophisticated. But that thought, like if I wanted to play, if I wanted to participate, I was going to have to put myself out there. Yeah. And I saw other, there were other kids that got the right stuff and they got help from others. You know, they saw things

differently than I did. But I also remember thinking, you know, I'm not going to get it. So what am I going to do about it? You know, I kind of looked at my situation and I think I borrowed, you know, so I would try to borrow, you know, that was not my surfboard. I could never have afforded any surfboard at that particular time. So a friend had it and he was surfing on a better board. And so he said, here, you can use this one if you want. And I'd be all by myself trying to figure out what surfing was all about. So I had to watch and learn. And the same thing with football. It was just being out on the street and playing and, you know, being both a QB or receiver, whatever, a DB, whatever position you played. So when I went out my sophomore year, I thought I'm going to be a DB and wide receiver. And I had no idea what the rules were or anything like that.

I lined up and I didn't even know truly that, are there really four downs? What does it mean to have four downs? We have to go 10 yards. I can't move. What do you mean I can't move? So they were just always- Three steps backwards. Yeah. And then the coach asked me after a day or two at practice, he said, would you mind being QB until we get another one down from varsity? And when I got behind the center and I knew I was going to touch the ball every single play, that was, that was it for me. And I, I said, I, and I loved, I got to control when everybody left. And I really took to heart that position. I identified with that position. You got to control when everyone left the line of scrimmage?

Yes. From the snap. From the snap, yeah. It was my voice. Yeah, right. When I said the hut, everybody moved. And so there was sort of like this sense of being in charge that I knew in my family, I was not in charge. And I had known all, basically all the way up through my sophomore year, I was not, I was always in the background and very insignificant. And I felt like that was a significant move for me, uh, to be the quarterback of that team to be, maybe it was because there was significant or I

felt significant. So how did you go from backup singer to lead singer? How did you do that in life? Um, uh, I just, I, I worked hard at it and I had probably, I had a lot of disappointment along the way just from not, uh, you know, not having things always go my way. I had to really fight for a lot of those things. And I never felt like lead singer was – I don't think anybody taught me about what a lead singer was supposed to feel like or be like. So all of the stuff that I did, I never knew whether I was a backup singer or a lead singer. I just was on a track and, you know, when I had to work, I worked. What were your grades like? My grades were poor in high school.

Where'd you go to college? I went to a junior college, Cerritos Junior College. Then I got a half scholarship to go to Cal Poly Pomona. Good school. It was a good school. Yeah. But not something that you would say would be a good football school. Right. That's not one of the top 10.

Not necessarily for football, but I was offered a partial scholarship to go and get an education and then be able to play football two years more, which I was very interested in. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they

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work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. If we were to go way up, you know, zoom way out for a minute, what are some key themes that looking back at early days with your parents, that structure where it was about participation, it was about you had to figure things out because you didn't get the things you wanted, but you still risked because you wanted to participate.

And not things going all, you know, it wasn't scripted on paper. It wasn't exactly pure how, you know, this trajectory was going to work out in your life. What are some main themes, some main storylines that are still present with you today? You know, one of the main themes, because I don't necessarily think education was important to my family, only that I should be doing better than I was doing. They absolutely knew that. But there was no tutoring, if you will. It was just harsh conversations about getting my act together. And my interests were more outside. I, uh, I will tell you one, one of the things, this is interesting to me

is, uh, through elementary school and, uh, through, um, probably junior high and even in high school, I didn't really know why I was going to school. I had the same experience. I didn't get it. Like at a young age, I thought it was I was I wasn't it wasn't that I was bored, but I was not stimulated. And so I had the very similar experience, too. Hey, you have to take history. Well, OK, but now I absolutely enjoy history.

But at that time, I was thinking, why do I have to take history? How would you describe yourself? I'm hearing rebel, but that's not how I see you. How do you describe yourself? I think I would describe myself as curious. I would describe myself as creative, but I think steadfast or there's sort of a, you know, a steadiness to me as well. But I do like variety. That's that curious, creative part. Yeah. I do like variety. I like variety. That's what I love about football because even though you think, uh,

everything's the same, each day is so different in preparation, uh, in growth. Uh, It makes it very compelling. Not having to do the exact same thing every single day. I quite like that. In getting my mind around this conversation, I talked to one of the coaches at the Seahawks and he says, oh, he's a genius now. Yeah. I would never see myself as a genius. I would just see myself as a guy that tries to think through situations and I'm willing to take risks. You would probably see me as a risk taker and I don't see myself as a risk taker. Yeah, most don't. It's an interesting thing. So is it physical risk or emotional risk or, uh, probably all, probably both financial risk. Not much, not as much as, uh, because I, again, I, I have some stability as well. I have foundations that I, I want to, uh, live by. When did money change for you from not, and I'm not talking about dollars. I'm talking about your relationship with money. Um, probably in, when I was a Seahawk, not because I was making money with the Seahawks,

but when I became a player, I remember I heard a message from a financial kind of an expert, if you will, and I would still consider him an expert today. He's no longer with us. But he said, money is a tool, a test, and a testimony, right? It should be used as a tool. And also sometimes money and how we deal with it tests us. It tests our faith. It tests our integrity, right? And then it's a testimony, right?

So when you look at a person's financial dealings, his decision making, sometimes it reveals that he's careless or it would reveal that, you know, some people would say, well, I don't really care about money. Well, that's sort of, I think that's sort of naive to say that you don't care, but you don't have to, it shouldn't rule us, right? It can't rule us. But if we think about it, when I think about it in those terms, then when I know I've got to purchase something or fix something or pay somebody back, Hey, this is a tool that I use to do that. This is a testimony to me paying back a loan, uh, to get right.

If you will. Is one of your abilities to evaluate, to pull way back and understand and get the big picture or is part of your genius being able to know what it's like to be a doer in the extraordinarily pressured environments is it both because you have a way of evaluating talent that is rich and so is it evaluation or is it more like you just get it you meaning because you've been in it, you've struggled, you've figured out the internal psychological frameworks, you can recognize it in others. I do feel like evaluating situations and things is super important and I do that. But then a lot of times I don't have to evaluate something that may be presented to me in a positive way, maybe a new sport.

I'm just willing to go and put on the stuff and let's go try it. Not to necessarily risk my life. I'm not going to go jump off a cliff and hang glide for the very first time and just say, hey, I just wanted to try it. So I think I have sense there. But for example, I started taking ping pong lessons. Who in the world takes ping pong lessons? But there's a guy here that teaches a lot of, he's a, he's an excellent coach. His name is Coach Fan and he,

uh, is Chinese and was, uh, uh, national junior Chinese champion. And he's here and he teaches a lot of people to play ping pong. And I wanted to get better because, uh, Stephen Hauschka is really a good ping pong player. I knew you were going here and it ticks me off that he can whip my rear end. Because there's a ping pong table in the locker room and right. And it's like a fun pastime for the guys to get after it. And you know, Hauschka is a specialist and a kicker and he's really good and he's got great eye hand coordination. He's good at golf as well. What's up Steven?ven and and so he was whooping you so you went and got coached oh yeah does he know does he know well i think he put me on to him oh because

i think he was already taking lessons from me oh it's so funny yeah so no one and i bet 90 95 percent of guys downstairs in the locker room would have no idea that you were coach coach so i love that idea of competing and i i uh and i'm okay with uh not not winning but i'm back at it trying to try to win the next time see this is what's really interesting about you and people like you is that okay i want to put my best foot forward. So I'm going to go get trained where many people might not go get trained. And so really don't try or want to be or look cool rather than be messy and ugly. And so you're okay being ugly. It sounds like. Absolutely. Yeah. You have to, you have to grovel in the dirt a while to try to get to see where it's going. Yeah, there you go.

And I'm willing to do that. And I also know it doesn't take one day. You can't practice one day and say, I've done that. Now I should be good. Yeah, right. I should be really good at what I do. Many people get caught in the freedom required to go for it, to learn because of the fear of what other people think of them, right? So that becomes this external critic and making up the story of what they might be thinking of me becomes such a large internal dialogue

that we end up not getting free and not risking looking bad. Really great conversation. Can you, let me ask you a question first. Can you remember the question you were going to ask me? Remember it? Yeah. How do you deal? How do you do that? How do you, that was my question for you. Yeah. But, uh, that's, that's the thing. I do believe that for me, it's not a problem. I know that I'm not going to be a great, let's say I bought a paddleboard. I'm going to go out for the very first time. And it's not very fun. You feel super, you know, uncoordinated.

And you're trying to figure out how everything works. But then you go out the next time, you're a little better. Next time, you're a little better. It happened to me when I was windsurfing. And I, uh, I remember telling my young daughter, my oldest daughter, when she was really young, I bought her a snowboard early in the, in the history of snowboarding. And I told her, I said, listen, you did not ask for this as a Christmas gift. I know what that's like to get something that you haven't, you haven't asked for. So maybe I brought that back up and I stored all that, all that stuff. And I said, so here's my only requirement. I want you to, I'm going to take you snow, you know, snowboarding.

I'm going to take you up to the ski slopes and we're going to snowboard. The only thing I would require of you is to snowboard five times. And if you don't like it after five times, then you never have to be on a snowboard again, because she was a skier. And so we did that. And she loves snowboarding. And, um, but I think it was that principle of, I knew she wasn't going to be very good. Uh, because when you snowboard for the first time, you get up and you fall down, you get up, you fall down. So I said, yeah, let's go five times. So I think, um, that's, you know, she was willing to be able to do that. And I think the willingness is part of the answer. How do you, how would you train someone to, to flip that, that idea in their brain that they don't want to go out and try it

more than once? Yeah, I think it's really hard. This is, there's no seven steps to just about anything in life, but this one's really hard because it's invisible, it's pervasive, it's slippery, and that's how all thoughts are, right? Thoughts are invisible, so we can't see them. So the story we tell ourselves is oftentimes very different than the stories we'll tell even, you know, our parents as a, you know, what, I don't know how old your daughter is now, but even the people we trust the most. And that is part of the hopeful journey that we can help establish for our loved ones is like, how much do you care about the truth? And my experience, and I'd love to see if you could chin check this a little bit, but my

experience is the best, the best. I'm not talking about the two percenters. I'm talking about the best. And there's lots of ways to get at this some is rough some are rough and some are manipulative and some are eloquent and compassionate but they care about the truth that's right yeah and it's a relentless organization of your life to get to the truth and so how do i help in that in that get to that place? Well, the truth is difficult often, you know? So we have to figure out how to do and deal with the difficult and help ourselves be the calibrator of what is right for us. And then that touches a spiritual framework as well. Like how are we making sense of the time that we're here? And people

have widely different spiritual frameworks that they work from. So, um, it's not an easy answer, but then the third component to how I'm answering this question is, um, just to really examine and be honest with yourself back to the truth. How much do you care about what other people think of you? And many of us, when we get honest, say too much. I just, I care. Damn it. I care too much. Like that fear of how I'm being perceived is too big. And we get really honest with that. Then it gets down to making a decision. I agree with what you're saying. And it's a hard thing to even have that question out there is how much, how much do you care that other people or what other people think about you?

I think that's, that's a very hard question. I, uh, and I know that today I'm not a psychologist and I really do think there's some wonderful things going on, helping people, uh, in exciting times right now in psychology. Yeah. It's exciting times. My, my daughter's, daughter, she has her PsyD and she's a counselor and we're always talking about issues and things like that. But one of the things that I think helps me, and I don't know if this is a psych 101 thing, but I always say this in my mind and I've actually said it out loud because we're so, sometimes I think we as people, we see ourselves as victims. And I think part of the, part of the, my upbringing is I've had to say to myself, don't, don't be a victim here. This is just the, this is the way it is. So deal with the way it is. You can't be a victim all your life. But then the second thing is we're always wanting to say that feelings, if you will, are neither right nor wrong. They're just feelings.

In psychology, I think I've heard that. And so I've also heard, and I really adhere more to this idea, and that is just because you have a feeling doesn't make it a fact. It's a cool thought, isn't it? Yeah. And that has helped me through trying things that I maybe wouldn't have tried if I felt like, hmm, I'm going to feel embarrassed. Well, you know, my thought too is everybody else had to start somewhere right so so that's how you inoculate the embarrassment like okay well how did he get good yeah i'm a beginner and it's fine everyone had to be a beginner at something so okay this is just where i am right super crisp

yeah you know like the the feelings are not facts. Feelings are information. Emotions are information. And if we deconstruct how feelings and emotions work, emotions are in the body. Okay, so they're physical sensations. Is that for the most part, they come from a thought and a thought pattern and a story. And sometimes they're instantaneous and sometimes we work ourselves into it. And sometimes they're influenced by what other people say to us. And that influences our thoughts but for the most most of the time thoughts precede emotions emotions can definitely influence thoughts for sure but it's this bang bang like it happens right away you know it's really fast interaction right so i use it as information oh

look at that okay so then it gives me this great, powerful piece of information. Sometimes it's painful. And I go, oh, well, how am I thinking about this that led to this? And if I get to the honesty of that stuff, sometimes it's really hard to get honest. And I need people in my life that hold me accountable. My wife is beautiful at knowing and understanding and embracing the best part of me. says is that is that really true mike you know it's like right and so that's actually what i think is the essence of psychology somebody who is holding such high regard for what's possible for you. And they end up being this great sounding board and all of the science fades away and they can really see the magic inside of you and help navigate that with you. What is the percentage then of the things that happen to us experientially?

Because a lot of times our, our, our feelings or the way we respond to sport or even just to outside world is based on something we've experienced, whether it's positive or negative. And then from a chemical standpoint, because sometimes the brain chemistry gets messed up or maybe is wired in a particular way that we automatically go to certain things because of how we're wired inside. Not experientially, just because this is how we're wired. Is that so different? I'm listening to your daughter right now in my head who i don't know but she's saying yeah nice job dad like that's it that's it dad you know like yeah that's it which is what is the interaction between genetic coding predispositions um environmental

conditions and the meaning that we make right so when we you and I could experience the same exact plane crash fill in the blanks whatever same exact win and you and I walk away with very different stories and that is that story is based on and influenced by our early stories we call that I call that psychological framework and psychological framework is influenced by genetic coding if you and I if you have a high disposition for no let's flip if you have a high disposition for uh no let's flip it i have a high disposition for anxiousness let's say okay and you're you don't right so my cortical arousal is like my cup is full right and right and i i respond in this kind of way to things and you don't well i'm gonna have a very different story about my experience than you are and that could

it really could be genetic. And so it's this beautiful interaction between all three. But here's the good news. We get to choose. Yeah. As adults. Right. We can rewrite our programming.

We can co-create our experience by a deep investigation about how to organize our inner life so we can be in the present moment more often that takes training just like you train a release point yeah just like you train hamstring whatever you know development same thing on uh psychological approach okay okay hold on i want to shift gears a little bit though because i could go down this rabbit hole forever but i i that's pretty good but i want to what are the i want to go back to quarterbacking for just a second because we're talking about training. All right. And that's the segue here.

How do you develop mental toughness? I think part of it is determination. by the body of work you do training because if you're stronger and you put yourself in these situations where you're you're sacrificing a little bit you can develop that mental tough it used to seem elusive to me the concept of mental toughness it used to seem like i don't know but then it's so crisp at this point just practice it yeah how do you practice it well be in uncomfortable situations be in situations that are testing your ability to stay in it how do you get ahead of that how do you front load optimism is a great way to train it awareness of your inner dialogue and then committing to the mission today

as it snaps into the larger mission of life. It's not that hard. Yeah. Right? I think there's two other things. One is if you had a partner, you can play off each other to develop. It's so much easier. Because I do know this, that to develop toughness, physical toughness and mental toughness, is you have to be able to deny yourself pleasures that others are indulging in that you can indulge in for the simple fact that you decided that you're going to work at this time to this time every single day this

week. And somebody asks you to go do something that could be more fun, whatever it is, or you could even just stay in bed because you said, hey, I'm going to work at five in the morning until eight in the morning. And then I'm going to work again at four in the afternoon until six in the evening. And you could even discipline yourself where you say, I'm going to train double days, and I'm not even going to do it myself. I'm going to make somebody push me beyond what I'm comfortable in pushing myself. And so you do those things. Working alone when nobody else is around, I think can help a person develop that mental when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What are some of the psychological skills? So we've got toughness, we've got commitment that we've talked about. What are some of the others that are important to you? Isn't it not allowing the emotion of a game to send you in a euphoria because you've done so well? It's all about me. I knew I was great, you know, or... Finally I have evidence. Yeah, right. Or you sink solo because something negative happened and it was at your hand. You know, I think we can all deal with, well, you know, he is a, pardon my expression, he's a crappy football player because he made that mistake or whatever.

When, in fact, we all fall short at any at any one time, because maybe that guy is better than me physically or whatever. Uh, and so not get so low when something negative happens that you can't play the next series. I agree a thousand percent. How do you help somebody do it or how did you do it yourself? Well, one of the war cries, um, that I learned, uh, was, um, to act medium. A lot of people say stay medium. Now I just say act medium so that, uh, cause I remember when I played, there was one game in the first half, I had thrown a couple of touchdown passes. I'm walking into halftime thinking, yes, indeedy, it's me. And I went out the second half and I was thinking to myself, I've done my job, but the game is all the way through. And, um, I remember not complete,

you know, not completing three or four passes in the second half. And, and we end up losing the football game or if we did win, I can't remember. Uh, it was not by my hand and that was pretty humiliating for me. And, um, I thought to be a consistent player, you have to be able to not feel so, uh, selfish about what you're doing on the field because it is a team sport, this sport, and be able to play the complete game and then enjoy it afterwards. And in a team sport, it's all about the team. So you focus less on your, on, on the heightened abilities. Uh, and then you can't be the problem that I would have is so, uh, uh, morbid examination over examining the negative. That's what you do? Well, I could have a tendency to do that because I want to be right and I want to be solid. And so if I do make an error, I feel it more than the, you know, I always feel like if I do well, I sort of have that expectation. I go out to do well. That's whatever, you know, I go out to win. And and but when you go out and you have something that might happen, I threw a pick.

And I have a harder time. I would have a harder time in my early days feeling like that was, you know, that was so devastating. It would take me two or three series to get back, you know, to breathe in and, okay, let's go, let's go at it. I can, I can move forward from that a lot easier today. What are, what comes to mind when you think of one of the most difficult moments that you had during your football tenure? You mean when I played? Mm-hmm. What comes to mind? Probably being behind 28-0 in the first half, thinking how do you how do you how do you

finish strong in that I was not capable of knowing the emotion of that and that's happened to me okay what was the most difficult part off field or even post career for you as we talk we don't talk enough about this part this phase of people's lives well I think for most in most young people's lives we don't know what is really hard for us in the moment and I'm, I'm looking at hindsight now. And I would say one of the things that, um, I wish I could have changed, cause that's maybe what, what you would be asking me next is could, how do you, how would you change that? I would think differently off the field about where I was going, who I was meeting, and I would think more about the appreciation of those moments. And what I mean by that, I'll just give you an example.

Now, this is kind of silly, but this is part of it. I went to a symphony one night with Joy, my wife, and as a quarterback of the Seahawks, I decided to go because I was a quarterback of the Seahawks or whatever, and I could kind of dress how I wanted and do what I wanted and whatever. And I didn't think about appreciating going to the symphony, so I wore jeans, a cowboy shirt, and a straw cowboy hat to the symphony. And it was because I could, and I did, and we all... And yet, I'm so embarrassed by that. Even today, I would want to make sure that I would have dressed appropriately to honor going to the symphony. Now, it sounds trivial, right? Because who cares?

To honor their culture. But honor the culture of that. And also honor my wife who loves a symphony or loves a ballet or whatever. There should be, it's not necessarily a dress code. It's sort of like valuing others that's what that's probably the thing that I would do off the field with more conscious effort and not just be mindless of because sometimes I would mean no harm it's just I did not pre-plan what this event meant to somebody else. And, uh, it's, it's the selfishness, you know, and it's not, it's not, um, you know, it's not illegal,

but it doesn't, uh, feel right to me today. And I think young people, uh, would do this and not think of that, but what they're really doing is considering themselves more, you know, higher than where they should, where they should. And if you don't have the clothes, there's always somebody who's got something for you to wear. You know what I mean? Or, but you got to plan that as well. You've experienced so much in your life. You're talking so clearly about, you know, um, being selfish, if you will, and not respecting the proper etiquette and culture of others. What

has been the great pain in your life? Yeah, I think the, probably the great pain, uh, I mean, there's, there's probably, uh, others, but I, I think, you know, you're asking me this question off the top of my head and I would say, um, or I would say not preplanned. I don't have a preplanned answer for this, but I would say, um, it has to do with some of the, uh, the experiences that I've had. I wish I could have, you know, you can't go back, right? And so the pain is living through some of the embarrassing moments and not being able to go and redo those. I can only do better in my next, in my next moment. So the, that is, I think that pain is probably good because it urges me to be more prepared for the next experience that I have. And as far as a specific pain, you know, there's also a pain associated with, and again, a lot of it has to do,

you can create the pain for yourself by being a victim, right? Back to that model. Right. And so the model is after you're done playing, you're even far less important or treated as though you're far less important than you were. And the treatment of important people, there's a protocol and there's a culture and a value. I mean, some people are really doing some unbelievable things in our lives today and deserve to have special treatment. But nobody is more important than anybody else when it comes to that. And I think that is something that happens when you get

knocked down. And a lot of football players or athletes, once they're retired people move on and so athletes sometime try to stay in that limelight or have that same that similar that grasp at that similar value and it's never gonna it's not going to be there so with the pain of that, of it not being there, nobody cares anymore. There's still a, I think the better, the healthier athletes see it quicker. Although there might be a pain, I don't think that the pain is justified to lash out and to have a lifestyle now that reveals that you're in that kind of pain. Does that make sense? I had an athlete really early in my career when I didn't quite understand the landscape. This was like 25 maybe years ago. And he said, you know, Mike, i knew i was in trouble when i looked to my wife

after i retired and said how are you going to give me the love of a hundred thousand screaming fans yeah that's pretty revealing yeah and i was like oh my god i don't understand i i said to him i said i don't know how to help you i don't't know. I said, but obviously she can't. You know, and they didn't love you. They loved what you did for them. They didn't love you. You know, so, I mean, it's really revealing. And he also shared that one of the toughest moments in his life is when he went to his local grocery store and they didn't recognize him. Something as simple as that put him in shambles.

Yeah. You know, and it was a couple years after he retired and he's like wow like they don't you know so i'm not saying that this is um these are first world problems but they are humanity issues yeah right we lose our dignity and humanity when we get wrapped up in what we do not who we are yeah and that's a real deal you know that is amplified amplified by this whole experience of elite sport and the fandom and the experience and the fun and all of that. You know, I never want to lose the fact that it's make-believe and real. Right? It's both. It's make-believe and real. And we should have strong people around us.

I'm fortunate to have a very strong bride of 40 years, 40 plus years. And, um, with that, if I would ask my, or mentioned that to my wife, she would have went, what are you, what are you talking about you know uh because you're right there's a real a reality in life that you can't deny right and if you do deny you're living in the another a different type of uh dream or whatever yeah yeah very cool so i want to ask you about your spiritual life okay and i know that is a deep foundation that you have. So can you just talk about what that practice looks like? Not necessarily the beliefs of Christian faith, but what is the practice of your framework? The practice, I think for me, asking yourself, what do you really believe?

Okay. So when we say, you know, I'm of the Christian nature, a lot of people, because of maybe their upbringing or what they hear in the media or whatever, might consider what that is, what that... Your understandings. Your understandings. My understandings. But so we all have to, so I would say we have to establish where it's based, based for what's the foundation part before we talk about, you're talking about lifestyle, right?

Yeah. How do you practice? How do I practice it? What's my lifestyle? So if I was going to say anything, I'd have to say, first of all, that to me, you know, the Bible is probably my foundation and principles in there and the truth that I believe is in there. So I believe I'm created. I believe that God, you know, I don't think he's so concerned about me and what my stats are on Sunday, if you will. But I do think that he cares about more on an eternal perspective. Okay, so I would say, so I believe in that,

is it literal? And I would say, well, yeah, from a literal standpoint, I believe in what the words say because God says it's his word. How do we get it? Well, man wrote this thing. So now we want to debate whether there's mistakes and fallacies or

contemporary or ancient ways we should live. All right. So I get all that. There's all kinds of parameters around it. But my practice or how I live it out is to know that there's some major tenets and principles in Scripture that I think are really valuable for us to live by. And one is to have an attitude of humility, number one. And number two is to make sure we are treating other people as though they're more important than ourselves. And I think those are two really amazing disciplines, if you will. Do I live them all? Do I live them out? No, I don't live them out all the time because I, you know, I, I'm, I can be very selfish. I can think of myself only at times. I need, I need this. I need a creature comfort. I need to sleep more or whatever. And when other people are in need, also, I, I try to enjoy what I do have and not be concerned about what I don't have, right?

And so I think part of a biblical view is to not try to compare myself with someone else because then I would be judging value. You know, this person has more value than this other person because he's better off or he's dealing with this in a better way. Um, I think we also need to treat, uh, people in authority and people maybe who have accomplished a lot with, with not treat them poorly because we want to make them feel like they're just like everybody else, but not treat them so highly that they become idled, uh, in our, in our lives at least. And, um, so there's a kind of a, um, a flowing discipline, if you will, in the practice at least. And so there's a kind of a flowing discipline, if you will, in the practice of that. I can't do it alone. I need others to say, what are you doing?

Or why are you thinking like that? Even my kids would say, man man you're really judgmental and I would say okay well am i judgmental or am i trying to discern the right you know right from wrong here am i trying to discern a better a better way here or no dad you're just judgmental you know so I have to wrestle with other people's input and ask, is this really true? And what do I need to change about myself as this is revealed to me? So I think that's the practice of Christianity. And then Christianity to me is not religion. It's relationship, you know, because there's no, you know, when you hold up a Bible, it may be in a church,

but it can also be in your house, and it can be in your backpack, and it can be anywhere. But that's kind of the meat of what we, what's been revealed maybe to us in an ancient time that people were so committed to that they were committed to life and beyond. They were willing to risk it all. You know what I really appreciate about your approach here is that you've got principles and you practice them. And those principles are inspired by your belief system, inspired by one of the great books of all time, by one of the great men and by your creator, right? You know, and I'm not trying to make light of it. I'm just kind of following a thought

through there. And what I really appreciate is that you have key principles and you practice them. So many have key principles, but don't practice them. This is one of the great things about development, a developmental approach in life is that you figure out how to practice them, how to develop them, how to pull them from the state they are now to a higher state. It's really cool. I would just, I want to back you up on something is that when I see you, I feel like you think I'm important out of a grace and that you are humble in that approach. So like my experience of being in a relationship with you is that you just have a way of honoring, you know, that I matter too.

Oh, no, I lift you up. You are. Come on. You are. There's a, so there's a standard there, right? So you are at the top of this, this level. And I'm curious about all that you do, because I think it, it doesn't just have to do with sport, but it also has to do with um living right each day and then it helps these

athletes because it's sports oriented it can help an athlete uh become a better player a better teammate a better husband uh maybe a better father and then a better past player that's it that's really key because it moves you know things move move on and they move forward and i so i'm intrigued by what you're doing and how you help thank you you know you help others so um and uh you know i think you're enthusiastic about your industry you know what you're doing and so that i i love that that's cool i feed off that too it i i've said it earlier like it's a really exciting time this you know nexus this interaction between ancient wisdoms between modern science between a fatigue across the globe right now of, you know, what it means

to be human. And if to me, it feels like there's a resurgence of re-examining what it means to be human. And it's a very exciting time. Yeah. So yeah. Thank you for feeling that vibe because it keeps me up at night. Yeah. I know. I, I, I, uh I know. You probably get to rub elbows with so many. People like you. Well, not me, but so many other people that are incredibly insightful. It's so cool. Yeah. But I'm serious about with you.

You know, like I really, this is a treat to hear how you think about development, where you came from and how you've stitched and linked it together. And it's a bit overwhelming to try to understand your genius. At the same time, the themes are crystal clear. So, no, these are the treats I look for. Just interview my children and my bride. We need to get Joy in here. Yeah. Because she'll, you know, not that.

If she was here. Yeah. You know. I did an interview. Did you actually say that, Z-Man? You know. Z-Man? Yeah.

That's. What is it like when you come in the stadium? 70 some thousand people and your name and jersey are kind of pinned up on the wall. Not kind of are, well, I'm retired. Uh, there's only six of them, right? Or how many people are in the ring? There's a, I think there's a dozen or so in the ring of honor. Uh, my, my Jersey's not re retired. I don't see anybody with a 10 out there this year, which is awesome. You know, I love that name. I love that Jersey just kind of being segregated, if you will. But, but I don't have, you know, I mean, I don't have a problem

with, you know, my Jersey number or anything like that. But when I walk in, I feel grateful, humbled to have fans remember what, what we did. And in today's game, we did some things. We didn't do enough to level us in a national conversation, if you will. But it's fun to have small little conversations about what we accomplished and established here with the Hawks many, many years ago. And there's some incredible stories and incredible feats of athleticism that we got to experience as Seahawk members. So to be a part of that and to have my name up there, it's great. And so many other players are deserving and coaches and things, people that have influenced the Seahawk organization. It's incredible. So to be singled out like that's

pretty, pretty amazing. How do you think about define or articulate this concept of mastery? Master. So, so I'm having a hard time because I want to say that mastery over something can, uh, I could have a sense of mastery and you would look at me and say, wow, that's, that's mastery. And, um, and others can have that same mastery. It's not just me. Like, that's what's kind of cool about being a human being, if you will, is that a lot of us could have mastery within the same thing. And yet our world will single out three people that do it and maybe they have a little charisma or they have, they have mastery in this thing, but they're not very personable. They have mastery in this thing, but they don't get along with everybody. Uh, and that's what elevates them because they, they treat people so poorly. Everybody loves that about them. Does that make sense? You know, so, um, or they, you know, what I like about where you're going with this

is that there are, let's say the greatest mother in the world, somebody who has mastered motherhood or fatherhood, who are they? They're not on the ring of, they're not up in the ring of honor. That's the problem. It's the most significant job in the world and we don't have a way to recognize the

extraordinaries in parenting yeah it's just it's i don't i mean conceptually creatively it's really it's a daunting thought like how would we do that because quarterbacking we can measure you know stats and this and that in an artificial compressed time experience and but we can't really figure that out with parenting i would love to know who the greatest parents are. How about it? Wouldn't that be fun? Well, we're in a laboratory, each family's in its own little laboratory. Right. And with no statisticians and no observers. And you can't do what another family's doing because your children have a different mental makeup, resources are different where you live, uh, what your job is. You could be moving around.

I moved Joy and our family 19 times so far in our marriage. And my kids, I would say Joy gave up a lot because she's highly intelligent, highly motivated, highly disciplined. And she gave up a lot in career to be a great parent, a great mother, and an excellent bride to me for all these years. And I remember having these conversations because she's looked around and see, even today, she can look around and see how these women are, you know, how women are excelling. And you talk about a woman who wants to see women excel. Joy is the epitome of what every woman should be in my mind, a woman that is fighting in there to have significance, but not significance for her. What's been so awesome is its significance in a way that

she would consider others more important than ourselves. And she would consider that the job that she's doing with our kids is far more important because we decided to have children it's far more important than anything else she she could have been doing and so uh you know she's she sacrificed a lot um to raise our kids but i would say today when you look at our kids you could interview our kids right here and they'd be open they'd be upbeat you'd get a lot of information uh that i'm not i couldn't even give you because they know and they really understand what's happened within our family you know probably the same thing with yours as well so um we we drifted a little bit from mastery but um, um, that, I guess that's the part, that's

part of it is as long as we say, well, yeah, I, I've mastered, uh, being able to throw a football. I can't throw it as far as I used to throw it physically. Uh, but I can still throw, right. And I think master, uh, people who have mastered things can also see others and their mastery and enjoy. When you master something, you also can enjoy the process that somebody else is taking to master what they're doing. I absolutely enjoy what Russell is doing in his career here. I'm close to it. I watch it. I observe it. And, you know, he's trying to become that QB that has mastered

that position. I watch these QBs that I've coached excel and elevate themselves. And just being a part of their lives for a short time has been wonderful for a guy like me because when I watch them play and then even move on, I look for those healthy things. I absolutely have a huge smile on my face and rejoice when I see them excelling in their own right outside of the game. Do you know what I mean? Very cool. So I don't know about diving deep into mastery, if that's what you were asking. I don't even know if I answered the question. No, it's good. You gave me a feel to it. Yeah, for sure.

Gave me a feel to it. Where can people find you follow along with what you're doing? Be part of your experience that were inspired by this. Well, you, you might have to be in my family. Yeah. Your Twitter account. I have a Twitter account and i have been encouraged to use it more uh so when i put a tweet out there i need to uh i don't necessarily feel like that's important yeah do you know what i mean that others oh we can follow you on this new league

you'll follow me on this new league and you'll follow me more on Twitter, but I don't even know what Twitter means per se. I've got a lot of followers, but I don't have a lot of people I follow. I don't try to look at I always make sure I send it to my son and to my son-in-law before I send them out. And I'll say, hey, how does this sound? And Isaac, my son, will go, no, dad, no, no, do not send that out. And so I'll say, okay, well, how would you word it? So he'll help me because I don't know all the hashtags and the ads and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, I know that I'm going to be pushed more in that direction. So you might hear from me, but, um, I almost think that to hear from a guy like me and what I, my opinion would not have the kind of value that a guy, you know, one liners from you would be far more valuable than say a one liner from me. We all have communities, right?

I'm reading, I'm reading insights from everywhere I can, you know, so I'd love to read yours. Yeah. Okay, good. So, listen, thank you for your time um i'm not sure where people are going to follow along but the xfl a new football league you're going to be coaching the local team in seattle vince vince mcmahon the wwe wrestling owner and uh creative uh market marketer behind that whole industry has decided to start this XFL. So now he's tried it before. It didn't work. The model that was programmed in didn't work. This model is going to be very football oriented. People are going to

recognize it. It's going to be a spring league, not trying to compete necessarily with the NFL, but after the NFL, a week after the NFL Super Bowl will be our first game. And we have eight teams. There's going to be 10 games, five home games in CenturyLink Field. And I get to be a part of it as the head coach and general manager. But even more importantly than that, so many other competent people have decided to come in and be a part of my staff. But then also around the league, there's some real excellent football people who are going to be leading and working with all eight teams. And then marketing, obviously, is going to be designed by Vince and his group in Connecticut. And then we're all going to work together to maybe bring some pleasure to fans beyond the NFL.

I'll see. Wishing you the best success. Thank you for your time. Thank you for all that you bring to my life as well. So appreciate you. Right on. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for

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