Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Redefining Failure, Effective Parenting, and Facing Pain | AMA Vol. 19 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

In this 19th installment of our Ask Me Anything with high performance psychologist Dr, Michael Gervais, we explore topics like:- How to re-define failure- Why facing your deepest pains can be transformative- How to overcome defensiveness in order to establish meaningful connections- Why parents need to focus on more than their child's academic achievementsAnd so much more…We love these conversations and it’s because we get to wrestle with the questions that matter most to you. They’re incredible.Thank you for challenging us with great questions…. and keep them coming.We hope you enjoy Volume 19 of Finding Mastery's "Ask Me Anything."_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Pain is the reason people change and uncomfortableness is how we grow. I think the worst thing that can happen

in a loving relationship is to try to take away their pain. It seems so counterintuitive to the act of love, but to minimize or tell them it's just going to be okay, rather than sit with it and witness it and hold space for them to fall into a thousand pieces, cry until they don't want to cry anymore, or to get pissed off or whatever it might be, but just to hold space and witness it. That's where healing takes place at a deep level. It's a radical gift of love. Okay, welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I am your host,

Dr. Michael Gervais by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you, to explore the topics and questions that you've been wrestling with on your path of becoming. So we're back with our favorite co-host, O'Neill Cespedes. And in today's conversation, we explore topics like how to redefine failure, why facing your deepest pains can be a transformative experience, how to overcome defensiveness in order to establish meaningful connections, why parents need to focus on more than just their child's academic achievements. Of course, there's so much more in here.

We love these conversations. We love to do this. And it's because we get to wrestle with the questions that matter most to you. They're incredible. Thank you for challenging us with these questions and please keep them coming. So with that, let's dive right into volume 19 of Finding Masteries, Ask Me Anything. AMA 19. Here we go.

AMA 19. I'm looking forward to like AMA 1000. You think that's coming? Whoa. Why'd you say it like that? You know, you never know. 2019. I'm looking forward to like AMA 1000. You think that's coming? Whoa. Why'd you say it like that? You know, you never know. You know something I don't know? We got a long way to get there, don't we?

Oh, man. Yeah. Look, this is always a highlight for me. And so I'm stoked to do this with you. I love doing it. And I find myself getting geared up about the questions because our community is smart yeah and um like i just want to do service to the science to the all the people that have taught me so much you know in locker rooms and on the field of play and board

rooms and um and i want to just make it real for us and so that's the those are the nuances that i'm trying to balance and it's a i feel like it's a wonderful challenge well you know mark to mike i'm so glad that you said you're geared up for the questions because you know as you know i i review the questions and get them and i just this is a special this first question okay this is a special one before i even get to it This is a special one. Before I even get to it, though. You're making me nervous. No, no, no, no, no. I don't want you to be nervous.

Okay, good. It's a very direct, short question. Don't be nervous. You're Apollo Neuro. Now. Yeah. Obviously, what I'm about to ask you doesn't apply to us because it doesn't work for us. But there's a love.

There is. Setting. Protocol. Protocol. Protocol. because it doesn't work for us but there's there's a there's a love there is um what uh a setting protocol protocol protocol and apparently i think it makes men tired right it doesn't work well for us but the design of it but you keep going the design of it but the design of it right what am i saying after the design for women but the design works well for women um well why does it make men tired why do we get tired i mean i haven't tried it yet well they designed it for um females to be more ready for sex okay yeah and so i don't i don't know how to dip into um the technology and the algorithm that they built. I have not had the chance to ask Dr. David Rabin,

the founder of Apollo. Shout out to David. Yeah, I mean, what they're doing is really cool. And yeah, I wear it on a regular basis. And so it helps me downregulate. That's why I use it. But there are some settings that women might be interested in. I heard that.

There might be some settings. My person wears it on her ankle all the time. I ask her, I'm like, why do you wear it on your ankle? Cause you look like you just got out of jail. You know what I'm saying? You know, the streets is hot right now. I can't be walking around with you with an ankle monitor. Oh my God.

You see it does look like it. I'm looking at it right now. No, I'm like, what are you doing? Take it off your ankle. That is so funny. Kaisa, how come you don't wear. Oh my God. You see, it does look like it. I'm looking at it right now. I know. I'm like, what are you doing? Take it off your ankle. That is so funny. Kaisa, how come you don't wear it on your wrist? Yeah.

And do you set it on the automatic settings where they just kind of go throughout the day? Kaisa, can I ask you a question? Have you ever sat on a love sitting and didn't tell me? Oh my God. Oh my God. The laugh says it all. I'm just kidding. Oh my God. That's it. Oh my God. Yeah. The laugh says it all.

I know, right? Wow. We wanna talk about this after we finish. We wanna talk. Oh, okay. Let's get into the questions. Good man. This question is from Sven.

Sven says, I like the way I say it, Sven, my question is simple and can be as deep as you want it to be what has been your biggest failure so far and what lessons have you learned from it i don't think about life that way and i i hesitate because i want to give an answer i want to give an answer about failures in my life and one my failures are immaterial to anybody else on the planet so they're my failures because of my unique experiences and my inabilities to go for it and but i don't think about life that way i don't think to anybody else on the planet. So they're my failures because of my unique experiences and my inabilities to go for it.

But I don't think about life that way. I don't think about, I don't frame my experiences as successful or failures. It's more about adapting and figuring out to the best of my abilities. And sometimes I do a great job of it, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm able to show up and be artistically expressive.

And other times, like, it's hard. But I don't think about them as failures and successes. There's times when I come up short and times when I struggle to really go for it and times when I let it all hang out and it either works or it doesn't. So how do you answer this question? Well, I mean, I wasn't gonna answer it in the very- The concrete. The concrete cliche way, when I heard you talk, I don't view it that way neither, Sven.

No, look, come on. If I'm being completely, honestly, and totally, man, I can't believe I'm about to say this, I'm super private, I'm super private. But if I had to respond to that and say what i view as my biggest failures is my strained relationship with two of my kids i have a strained relationship with them and i don't think i don't think any person starts any father or parent starts off wanting to have planning you know to have a strained relationship with their children.

Because, you know, I certainly thought that was never going to be the case with me. And I have a strained relationship with them. And so that's probably the biggest thing on my list, the number one thing on my list that I want to resolve. Because I just didn't, I never thought it would be me. After just listening to you talk and I'm not just bullshitting you,

that's a beautiful way to view it. That, no, that's a beautiful way to view it. The way you worded it was just excellent. Like, as opposed to viewing it as a failure, you know. What did you say? I don't wanna put you there. What you're saying. So what-

I mean, I would go, I would use your example in this moment to say, like, failure as a dad seems way too, like, I don't know. I just, I even have a hard time thinking about even some of the most egregious behaviors as a failure. If I take my imagination to, like, the worst parent, and I mean that, like, that parent should be locked up you know like they're harmed to other people i i think i can get my head around that that's a abject failure and then the other part of me is like this is the human humanities in me it was like uh it's

complicated so i just don't i just don't square the black and white, the success-failure thing. It's too nuanced. And like you as a dad, I'm sure that there was moments in time that were great, and there's more moments that you haven't been there that you'd want to be there, and there's times when you'd want to be there in a different way. So I don't know. I just can't figure out how to square the whole thing to a check the box or an unchecked box. As I was buying time, thank you for sharing.

As I was buying time, I still can't find an example. I'll tell you one, the only thing that came up, which is not nearly as meaningful or intimate as what you shared, is that I was probably um, so I was probably about 28 years old and I was brought in to do a clinic. And so there was a sport and it was parents and athletes to do a small little clinic. And it was about a 90 minute session. I was a participant in it and it was really casual. It was, I had just gone surfing and I quickly ran, I was late. Okay. So I guess you could check a box failure for that, you know, but that's, again, this is

not how I think about things. And I was late, I was running to it and I knew exactly what I wanted to say. I was preparing myself out in the water, but I knew exactly how I wanted to capture this opportunity. And I thought it was amazing. We got to a 45-minute mark. We take a break. And a woman comes over to me and she says, thank you so much. This is embarrassing, but your zipper has been down the entire time. I didn't have underwear on. I just got done with it. Oh, my God. down the entire time i didn't have underwear on just got done oh my god yeah i i think we could check the box on maybe failure to like really attend to the details there yeah and it you know what do you do what do you do in that moment i was like embarrassed and now i had to go back on and do my thing yeah and so um so there's like a failure to prepare. I was late and like, I didn't take

care of an essential detail. And so I don't know, like, I just don't hang across the whole thing. Life is a failure or success. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms. One thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically

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It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform.

And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here.

Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know,

Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Why do you think we as a society do that? Because that's easier. Yeah, I think it's much easier.

Black and white thinking is easier. It's also evidence. It's considered a cognitive distortion. And so it's evidence of or leads to anxiety, depression, addiction, and a whole host of other things. Black and white thinking, all or none thinking, shoulds, coulda, woulda. There's a handful of them. And so if you look up cognitive distortions, you'd find anywhere between eight and 12, depending on the researcher. And black and white thinking is one of them. So it's just unhealthy. The world is not black and white. It's not that simple. And so, okay, if I flip it around, and to use your intimate example here, is you're not the father that you had hoped or wanted to be to them.

Is that fair to say? Yes. Yes. 1,000%. Okay. Yeah. Then, um, how would you frame that as instead of like a, um, an absolute outcome, you're still alive, they're still alive. How do you reframe that as a way to see an opportunity to get better at something? So this is like this constant

iteration that we are con we have the opportunity to do. So if you can frame something as an, an opportunity to get better, you feel the pain, you feel the uncomfortableness about it. But if the framing is, well, how do I use this to be just a little bit better? How do I use this to be better at whatever in a relationship or with myself? Is there a way that you could shift your thinking or use that framing? Personally, yes. I think the problem is, the thing that gets in the way is, once the reshaping is done and the effort is put forward, in my mind, personally,

they may not feel the same way or think on that same level, right? Or wanna meet me there. And obviously I don't wanna buy into the, or I don't wanna say to them, "'Hey, obviously I don't want to buy into the, or I don't want to say to them, hey, listen, don't worry about the past. Let's worry about the present and the future. And let's go from this point on

and let's just mend this relationship. People tend to, myself included, obviously, people tend to want to dwell and stay on the thing that scarred them or hurt them. We can have a conversation. What if you change that to, instead of people, you said I? and stay on the thing that scarred them or hurt them, right? We can have a conversation. What if you change that to, instead of people, you said I? How would that sentence happen for you?

How would I feel if I said that? Like, what? I mean, that would put all the blame on me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just try it for a minute for me, just as an experiment. I, I, Wontae, you're loving this, aren't you? I tend to dwell in the past

and it affects my actions and everything that I do. Two parts. One is I'm wondering if you felt that differently when you used the word I as opposed to the distance of the language of people or they.

I mean, definitely, definitely. Because it makes me take more accountability. Yeah. Language can create distance from emotions or it can bring us right up personal. So that's the first part. But the question, so that's the emotional piece of what we're talking about.

But the question is, you sometimes stay in the past. People sometimes stay in the past. people sometimes stay in the past. How does that relate to being a better parent? It doesn't. And no way should it perform. You're identifying how you tend to respond to challenges, which is to go backwards.

Am I getting that right? No, no, you know, actually, I run into the problem I'm expecting to run into. I bust a U-turn and I'm like, oh man, I can't walk down that corridor again because if I walk down that corridor, I'm going to run into that. So you let me, let me take some time away from that and then come back later to see if I can walk down that corridor again. And then when I do that and I come back to that corridor, it's even more reinforced if that makes sense. Right? Yeah. I mean, okay. So if I decode that is that sometimes when I do that and I come back to that corridor, it's even more reinforced, if that makes sense, right?

Yeah. I mean, okay, so if I decode that is that sometimes when I have conversations with my kids or anybody and I don't really meet them at their point of pain and I go, oh, here we go again. And then I'll shift it or I'll exit or I'll minimize or I will change the subject, which is the shifting. Or I'll gaslight or there's some sort of tactic that gets displayed to not feel their pain. I would say yes, because I ask myself this question. I ask myself, okay, if I decide to go inside of this and sit in it and bask in it and face it and deal with it

for however umpteen amount of- With the other person. With the other person for however umpteen amount of with the other person with the other person for for however umpteen amount of hours will there be a resolution because because traditionally as i've been taught as i've seen others before me parents uh older adults when i was a kid when they enter in a conversation or some sort of um tumult situation, they're looking for a resolution. That's what I think at least, right? We enter these things over this conversation because we're trying to fix something or come to some understanding at least, right? So the math

that I do in my head is once I enter this tumultuous situation and I'm looking to either resolve it or come to an understanding or what have you, and I don't get there with them, right? I don't get there with them at all. Then the response that I have is, okay, well, I should back out because I did what I mathematically was supposed to do. Two plus two is supposed to equal four. That's what I've been told all my life. When you talk to somebody about a problem and you face it head on and you deal with the pain and you have the tears and all those things, you're supposed to come to some resolution, whether it's, I'm not fucking with you anymore, or I do forgive you and I am going to fuck with you,

or let's agree to disagree, whatever. When I don't reach that outcome that I think that I'm supposed to reach, I'm like, ugh. In the timeframe. In that timeframe. Timeframe. Yeah, I'm like, abort mission, abort mission, back away, come back later. Because you've done everything that you think that you're supposed to do.

Yeah. And so forth and so on. I really like the honesty in that because it's like this calculus about how much pain will I endure relative to the pain that they're expressing as an equation to be able to move forward in the relationship. Exactly. Okay. So, yeah, like if every time you enter a conversation and it feels like you are getting beat up from a past behavior and that sentiment has been addressed with the other person,

and it feels stuck, it probably is in trouble. If though you say it like, hey, I wanna do two things in this conversation. I wanna make sure you understand that I'm here for you and I really wanna understand what's happening for you. It feels like we've done this a handful of times and I don't know how to get us to a resolution where we can grow from it. And I want to talk about that too. So you call the

thing out that you're wanting to move directionally to, but not run over the emotion piece. There might be something in that. And it might, you know, I can't speak to your relationship with your kids, but this is why I highly recommend with complicated relationships to have a witness, to have a skilled person that knows how to help navigate the relationship. And that psychologist, the client is the relationship and that psychologist the client is the relationship not you and not the other person but the psychologist is seeing the relationship as the client and they're holding the sanctuary for that relationship to grow and to figure out and to change in some respect or to just call it what it is this is how you guys do relationships and maybe it's going to always be that way i would i would recommend that and even if it's with you know you and a kid or

you and a loved one or you and a parent if we feel like we keep are stuck in the relationship circle that you're navigating having a highly skilled witness to be able to help navigate it i don't know just a handful of sessions, I think you'd find like a remarkable change. Yeah. So sorry, I can't be of more help for you here. No, no, no. You're a great deal of help.

You're a great deal of help. Yeah. Damn it, Sven. Sven. Failure. Sven. Next question is from Alex. Dr. Mike, is there a way you can train and develop someone to have high levels of purpose or motivation without having some significant form of pain to motivate them?

It seems paradoxical that we strive to provide a world built for the next generation to excel, but doing so while protecting them from experiencing high levels of trauma. We've seen in the Olympics and professional sports many examples of athletes who have used the pain and trauma as a driving force for taking action. How do you develop that same drive with someone who hasn't been given those experiences? I think what this question is referring to is something that I say a lot, which is pain is the reason people change and uncomfortableness is how we grow. So there's a tension between pain and uncomfortableness. I'm not talking about physical pain. I'm talking about the emotional pain that we all have and to honor it, to see it, to understand how it's impacting the choices that

we make and the actions that we take. So, and I'm not suggesting we just got to sit with pain or cause pain for other people, but there's pain that we all have and taking the time to understand it and how it influences our thoughts, our words, our actions. And when we touch that pain, it becomes even more clear about how we want to take our next choices of thoughts or actions. So this is just getting down to the honest experience of who a person is. And then from that, choosing the direction that we want to take. And so I think that that gets confusing for folks.

And we just run over with uncomfortableness and doing hard things and the difficultness and pushing to the edge. And that's all the uncomfortableness and doing hard things and the difficultness and pushing to the edge. And that's all the uncomfortableness, but not until we get right down to the source code. Do we see the real changes that we're able to make? So I think the worst thing that can happen in a loving relationship, when it's me and a, and an athlete or a client and, or, um, parent, child, and, or spouse, whatever it might, is to try to take away their pain. It seems so counterintuitive to the act of love, but to minimize or tell them it's just going to be okay, or to take away that real pain rather than sit with it and witness it and hold space

for them to fall into a thousand pieces, cry until they don't want to cry anymore, or to get pissed off or whatever it might be, but just to hold space and witness it. That's where healing takes place at a deep level. The insults that happens when we go through trauma is that we feel separated and alone in that experience. And it creates such a radical departure from the social network that we are, that that thing I am shamed of, or I'm different from, or it's so heavy, it disorganized the way that I think about the world moving forward. And it's not until we have another person that can help us calibrate to make sense, to feel all of it and still be okay, that witnessing of another person's trauma or pain or emotional upheaval, just holding space for that is a radical gift of love,

as opposed to like, it'll be okay. Sometimes that's okay. But when that is like the flavor of the conversation, as opposed to just kind of a, I don't know, a kind word, it's very different. So let me ask these a couple of questions and let me know if I'm getting off of track here. Listening to Alex say that he thinks it's paradoxical to try to, you know, shun the performer or the child or your friend, whoever from pain, when you needed to become this high-level performer. I mean, I think we've all, I know I've seen,

I'm making a grand assumption here, a blanket statement, because they could have been dealing with a lot. But I've seen people go through adversity and become better athletes or better performers through that adversity. Then I've met other people that seem like life was just a cakewalk. Things just fell into their lap and they still were able to perform at a ridiculous high level. So the, the, the, I shouldn't, I shouldn't say issue I take with this question, but when he

says it seems paradoxical, it seems like he's saying that you need the trauma in order to become a high level performer. And is that that the case that isn't the case right my experience is that none of us are getting through this life without some sort of trauma yeah damn yeah you've had have you had trauma too late yeah i got a lot of trauma yeah micro traumas big t trauma what's the difference micro trauma like big t trauma. Big T trauma. Big T trauma. What's the difference? Microtrauma. Like big T trauma are the things that most people go, oh my goodness. Microtraumas could be a series of very small,

seemingly small things, but added up over time. It's like, whoa, that's pretty heavy. I'm hesitant to say big T traumas, because if I said, yeah, I've had some big T traumas, but I feel good. I feel like people will look at me like, oh, you're going through it, you're just hiding it. You're denying it.

You're in denial. That's cool too though. Just the fact that you're aware of it is cool. But how do you know if you're in denial? Because I mean, I had this conversation earlier this morning. This is where relationships, people hold up mirrors. This is why a community is so powerful is because you'll do something and your partners will be able to say, what'd you just say?

Yeah. Yeah. So I totally cut you off, but keep it going. No, keep it going. No, I mean, because in my head, in my twisted, demented head, things are great, man. You know what I'm saying? I feel good. I wake up. I'm like, yeah, let's go, things are great, man. You know what I'm saying? I feel good. I wake up.

I'm like, yeah, let's go. What are we doing today? And then when you do something that's triggering to a partner, friend, a child, whoever, a coworker, whatever, and they, for lack of a better word, psychoanalyze you and they say something, you're like, I didn't think I was hiding any childhood trauma. I just ate the yogurt in the fridge. What you mean? I'm going through something. I'll buy you another yogurt. Why didn't think I was hiding any childhood trauma. I just ate the yogurt in the fridge. What you mean?

I'm going through something. I'll buy you another yogurt. Why don't you calm down? And then I feel like they place that in your head. And then here I am, you know, in the bathroom having a Rocky moment, looking in the mirror like, is you eating that yogurt deeper than what you think it is? Oh, my God. You know what I'm saying?

And I don't want to think like that. I mean, there's a couple of things in that scenario. One is it is awesome when our partners say to us, hey, you know when that thing happens or when you take that action, I feel this way or it triggers something in me this way. So when they can talk about their experience and I can feel their pain and what it's done, what they've allowed me to do,

the gift they've given me is I'm not in a reflexive defensive mode. I feel like if I'm not careful and somebody says to me, what are you doing? And I go, what do you mean, what am I doing? No, you think that this is okay? Yeah, what's up? So now I'm in a defensive mode.

That's me. Okay. There's a lot of us. And when, when the other person, my wife or a friend that says, Hey, you know, when you ate the yogurt, I gotta tell you, I feel like you don't even give something about me. And like, I struggled for 20 minutes about like the quality and the health of our relationship because like, I'm making this a big deal because it's just a small emblem for something. However, I got to tell you, I feel small. I feel unseen and I'm really hurt. You know, when I feel like for 20 minutes, I was like sad and I didn't even want to bring this up to you because I didn't want to. Now all of a sudden I'm like, oh, whoa. Okay. So I'm not in a defensive place. They've given me a way to get right to their pain. And I am in awe. My wife

does it in a great way. I'm in awe when people can be that vulnerable and that honest. And so now we don't have to play the game of defense, but we can get right to the pain. So there's a gift that we can give each other. And that would be one of them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team,

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Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Here's the million dollar question. What if they don't deliver it in that eloquent, soft, thoughtful, heartfelt way? How many times do you just allow it, right? Because in my mind, like- Yeah, now we have to be vulnerable too and say, hey, I want to work.

Our relationship really matters. And I don't want to be triggered. I want to be so connected. And sometimes I get all defensive and I want to talk to you about that. And they go, oh, how's that work? Say, when I'm defensive, you know what would help is I don't want to be that way can we find a way to help each other during that oh yeah okay great i'd like that too so like uh like my wife and i like if she's triggered in some kind of way and i say come on panda and it it's just a fun way

because panda bears as we've talked about don't't have any predators and they're just fun loving kind of whatever. And it, and just that little humor is our agreement of how we'll help each other try to get out of it. And sometimes I'll say that, or she'll give me the little thing that we've worked out for me to be less defensive. And I'm like, stop with that. So it's just, it's, it's saying the thing ahead of time to work through it rather than try to solve it in the heat of it. So if you can carve, this is where dinner conversations or windshield time or whatever it is, when things are pretty good, you say to your loved one or your partner, where can I be better?

And you got to now be ready for some information to come your way. And you say, and you say, no, I really want to know how I can be better for you. And then your partner will say, you know, when you do the yogurt thing, it crushes me. Now that's mind-blowingly fascinating. So the dinner time. Are you, are you, are you patronizing? No, no, no, not at all. Okay. All right. Trust me. I'm not. Yeah. Not at all. What do you mean when you say the dinnertime thing? Like you actually carve out the, like you find those times when you're having the conversations to be like, you know what? Let me try to address something right now in a pleasant space while we're having dinner

or while we're chilling on the couch watching TV or while we're next to each other. That's when you find the time. It's more windshield time for my wife and I. It's more windshield time. Sometimes it's dinnertime um sometimes it's dinner time and so um we have one son and the three of us will go to work over dinner some and this is every once in a while it's not all the time but as a best practice we'll sit down and one of us will say hey there's something i want to i want to talk about what's up and then you know they

so what we try to do when we're at our best is we're going to talk about what's up and then you know they so what we try to do when we're at our best is we're going to talk about ourselves and then because we are a little tribe a little community of you know the three of us like we're like we're all in it meaning that if my son's going to say hey that this thing's happening um which it does this very rarely it's 15 you know it's more my wife and i and we're modeling. And if I'll say, Hey, there's something I want to talk about, like this keeps showing up for me. And I'm, you know, I'm struggling here that they're both, they both care about me. So they're like, it's easy to get defensive to that. They're the, that I'm pointing to them. And when they're at their best, they're saying, okay, okay, got it. Cool. Thank you. And it could be that simple.

And the message has been carried. The assignment is clear. Sometimes they'll say that's on you. I'm telling you like that. You got to go to work on that because that spilt milk that we're talking about, like I have no energy around that. So do you want to talk about that, Mike? You know, so that's how these conversations go. Sometimes they're easy and eloquent, short. Sometimes they're holding up a mirror. And other times they get triggered too. And so having ways to navigate at least those three scenarios is really cool. And the only way to do it is to practice.

Let me tell you why I said that's mind-blowingly crazy to me. Because if I'm at dinner and a loved one friend or whatever first first of all i hate oh sure i know right i'm taking you're coming strong can i talk to you for a second if you send that to me in a text you'll never hear from me because i just don't like i don't know why i don't know if it's clearly it's from some trauma, but it's true. Everything is from some trauma. It's triggering. Can I talk to you? Can you call me for a second?

Anyone who knows me, friends, loved ones, if you cannot send me a text like that, just call me and talk to me. So you don't want the warmup? I don't want the warmup. You don't want the,

like, no, my wife is the same way. Like if I send that text, I've learned not to send it because right away she calls and I'm walking into a meeting, but I just want to, you know, so I, okay. So we don't do it that way. But if somebody says it to me, I love it. I'm like, oh, something's up.

All right. So then it gives me a chance to kind of get my best uniform on. Like I know that. Really? Oh yeah. I love it. I, it helps me tremendously, but it's anxiety provoking for, for people as well.

Extremely. I delete their number. I delete, delete, block. I hate, can I talk to you for a second? The world might be blowing up.

You'd rather somebody just call you. Just call me. Just call me. If you, if you're going to drop a big bomb on me, call me. Don't say, can I talk to you for a second?

You'll never hear from me ever again for the rest of the time the universe exists sound so i what if i'm not what if i'm not in the mood to call just call don't don't send that text wait till you get in the mood wait until you get in the mood got it and and as far as the dinner time conversation thing that is even more mind-blowingly fascinating to me because if we're at dinner and we're having a perceived good time and I'm eating my food and I'm like, hey, how's it going? This is crazy. I did this at work yesterday. And you hit me with a, hey, something I want to talk to you about? Well, you just told me I could hit you when I'm ready. That's, yeah, you're right. I just don't like that. You just don't like it? What is it that you don't like? Well, as far as texting that to me,

the warmup gives me anxiety because I don't know what's going on. I can't get to you immediately. As far as saying it to me during dinner time, you're destroying and taking away my peace at this very moment, right now at the time. But I'm unsettled. Are we partners?

Are we in it? Yeah, yeah. We're friends here? Yeah. I'm unsettled. Are we partners? Are we in it? We're friends here? I'm unsettled. But say it to me after dinner. Say it to me when we're- So I gotta dance around you now. Yeah. And bigger than that,

I'd rather have the fight in the fight. In the fight. I wanna beef when the lava is around us, because it's beefing time. Yeah, there you go. Rather than if we're in the field of daisies and roses and whatnot, why would you choose to it's safe it's safe right now i feel like you're in a great place and i might if i could just find the right way to share this thing that i'm struggling with

and you're involved in it that maybe we have a chance to kind of just make it work you got me there, Dr. Mike. Yeah, well, but I'm speaking to you as the way that I know I need to be spoken to as well. Like I get defensive quickly when I'm tired, when I'm in a place where like, I feel like I don't have capacity. Like I see me in your response.

So I'm speaking to the way that a mentor of mine speaks to me, you know, which is like, oh, okay. So you're kind of impossible to deal with. You can't do it this way. You can't do it that way. What is the right way for you, Mike? Because there's other people in this world that have, you know, some real experiences going on.

So let's play it out. What is the right way for you what is the right way you want to give you the dinner scenario or the texting scenario what uh no we already we already ruled texting is not okay well okay if we're in a safe space and um we're skipping through the field of roses and daisies and whatnot because now when they decide going well i don't know if this is the right time to do it because we're in a good, happy place. This isn't the right time, because now I might kill his mood.

Well, no, cover it with some candy, you know? Cover it with some dark chocolate, you know? Cover the truth. Yeah, as we're skipping through the field of daisies, bump me and be like, this is great, this is great. Well, you know I don't like when you eat the yogurt. And then slowly, progressively be like, no, I really don't like when you eat the yogurt. And then slowly, progressively be like, no, I really don't like when you eat the yogurt.

No. Well, is it okay? Can I ask you? I don't like when you eat the yogurt. Like, you know, like slowly stick the needle in slow. Oh, that's funny. Right? Like spoon feed me.

And then, you know, let's small portions and bigger portions. For what reason? Because we're in a, we're, as things are currently constructed, we're skipping through the field of daisies and roses. Don't hit me with something that, that's, that's going to change the mood, the tone, everything immediately. Don't drop that hammer on me immediately. Hit me with a pencil, then hit me with a small piece of wood. Then, you know, maybe a little tap with a hammer. So I have to, I have to test.

I have to test if you're okay. Yeah, I see your toe in the water a little bit. I mean, I don't think that's anything different from you saying how your wife told you about how beautifully and eloquently she told you. I don't think, I think what I'm saying is pretty much the same. Is that how you do it with other people?

That's your method, you test? I mean, you know what? I'd like to think so. Yeah, because I will. I feel eyes burning inside of my face. You know what I love about this? Is that your partner is here. Yeah, yeah.

Get out of the room. I feel eyes burning. Dr. Mike, let me tell you something about myself. I will walk on eggshells to preserve a relationship because I know I am able to defend myself verbally if I have to. So if I feel like things are, you know, are shaky or there's some problems going on, I'll tiptoe around like Scooby-Doo. You know, I'll walk on eggshells. I'll do all that stuff. I will go out of my way to avoid an argument in a fight. I've been told that that's not creating boundaries. Like I need to create boundaries and I'm terrible at that. I let people get away with murder. And then as they're getting away with murder, I do something insane. You don't say something until it's the boundary has been.

Precisely. I view it as, no, I let you, I'm trying to let you work out and exercise whatever you have going on. So I don't seem like I'm too abrasive. So I would like that reciprocated to me. You know, rather than us, we're in a joyous situation and you just hit me with a, I don't like when you do this. And I'm like, why would you say that now? The sun's out. Butterflies are landing on my finger.

Things are wonderful. Why would you destroy this wonderful moment? So that's an attack on me now, if I say that. If you and I are in that conversation, I bring it up and you say, well, why would you do that now? And I'm like, oh man, I don't know how to do this. So I got to I gotta work extra hard because your desire for status quo is so high. It's now on me to figure out the right way to get you to have a conversation about my pain. I guess when you put it that way, it's not cool. No, it's not. I see you in me.

I see you in me, okay? Oh my God, I guess you could put it that way, yeah. Sure, Dr in me. Okay. Oh my God. I guess you could put it that way. Yeah, sure, Dr. Mike. So what would be, what would, but you also said something super benevolent, which is super loving,

which is like, hey, we're in this thing together. There's lots of space for us to explore, to do some things. And I'm just going to not be a nag. I'm not going to address things as they all, each little thing comes up. I don't want to be controlling,

but at some point it's going to feel like we're sliding down a cliff at too fast of a pace and then I'm going to address it. Yes. There's something that is like really loving about all that space. Or you could say, I put it all in a closet and I wait to use it as a weapon.

Anyway you want to put it, I like your way better. You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to have Kaisson at some point. I forbade that. You did it to Lisa and I, my wife and I. That would be perfect. God. Oh my God.

As he gingerly looks. Yeah, that's great oh my god yeah i'm not sure exactly where we got to but like the idea that is in my head is um relationships are complicated yeah and you have your framework i have my framework and when we're trying to you have your traumas i have my traumas you have your triggers i have my triggers and we're trying to create a harmony in taking care of each other for a better future, a future together. Humans are the most complex, and then relationships are even more complex. And I can't imagine that my wife and I would be in the type of relationship we are without

support from a highly trained psychologist i cannot imagine it i can't imagine that i could possibly navigate all of my intricate ways and her intricate ways and we would be okay without literally a highly trained professional saying so how do you think this is going to? And so anyways, if we make investments in all parts of our life, I wanna make an investment of time and money with my relationship. And so maybe go find somebody.

I am Dr. Micah. Why not? I love you, man. Why not? It makes it so much easier. It makes it so much easier. Are you a coach? When you're rolling and doing your jiu-jitsu,

is jiu-jitsu the only? Now we're back in the zone. Yeah, yeah. Is jiu-jitsu your only art? Or is it the one art? No, boxing, Thai boxing. Okay. So have you ever coached anybody?

Yes, I have. Why would you do that? I actually have. Why would you coach somebody? I asked myself that question when I did it twice. It was nerve-wracking. Well, it helps them. You're helping them. I guess.

Yeah. Well, right. And why would you want to be? Have you ever been coached? Yes. Yeah, of course. Because somebody outside that's not living in the first driver approach of your own life can see things more clearly and they can say, oh, you know what?

You're dragging your back foot or you're dropping your shoulder or you're looking at the hip before you actually, you know, make an attack, whatever. So I just think it's such a radical commitment. I mean, that's so crazy because you're so right. And I've never drawn those parallels like that. Never. Really?

Never. I've never, never. And I think maybe, obviously. What does a private coach go for for fitness? A couple hundred bucks an hour? This depends on, yeah, 150, 200 an hour? Yeah, plus, plus, plus. Plus, plus, plus.

Yeah, psychologists are somewhere in that zone as well. How many sessions do you need to get fit over a year with a trained professional? Gosh, I wouldn't even. How many would you say? Three times a week? There you go. Two times a week?

Yeah. Cool. And imagine if you did that for your relationship, how much more fit you would be. Even if you did it once a week. Yeah. I'm not a proponent of long-term therapy. I am far more interested in the personnel that i work with it's like let's roll up our sleeves let's get to work

let's get right to the course uh the core of it let's find some ways to train and let's come back at some other point later yeah and so the long-term thing is not my jam. There can be a value in that. But if you just did a handful of sessions over three weeks, you know, I'm sorry, three months, and you did once a week for three months, 12 sessions with your partner,

1200 bucks, $2,400, somewhere in that neighborhood, that's a rad investment. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're right.

I want to disagree with you wholeheartedly because everything in me was like, no, but you're right. You're right. The parallel that you draw with coaching sports and athletics. that's right yeah it's the same thing yeah it's cool same thing make it cool make it cool you're we're looking to you make it cool finding master is brought to you by cozy earth over the years i've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Next question is from KJ. I'm reaching out as a father of a driven 16-year-old who is ambitiously navigating his way through a demanding high school curriculum

of honors and AP classes alongside his passion for playing football. My ex-wife and I find ourselves at a crossroads regarding our son's education and extracurricular activities.

I appreciate his willingness to challenge himself. On the other hand, my ex-wife advocates for far more calculated approach that will best position him to get into a great university. She suggests he should consider less challenging courses to secure straight A's and even proposes he quits football to dedicate more time to his studies.

Is this just my idealism versus her pragmatism? Performance is your lane. Do you have any advice on what approach would be best for our son? Oh, that's complicated. You got a strained relationship. I'm assuming strained. You've got two different philosophies. And I'm imagining that maybe the same outcome that they're looking for, which was like a thriving young person, you know, their son or their children.

This was about a son. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot in there. That's really complicated. I would. What was the end part of that question?

Yeah. Do you have any advice on what approach would be best for our son? Yeah. I mean, like if I could just hang there for a minute without getting into some of the other complexities, I would say that one, listening to your son, what does your son want? Start there. Listen, understand what it is that he wants to get better at, what are his unique challenges. All of this stuff, whether it's sport or school or arts, whatever, is a way to learn more about who we are. And so I would attend to that first. Period. Full stop. Now, the anxious part of parenting is, well, if a certain number of things don't fall into place right now, the future is going to be way more complicated or options will be reduced.

And if we don't get into a top 25 school or top 10 school, you know, whatever, whatever. So I do understand that. And I'll just wave my hands and say, I really like my life. I really like my life. I really like my life. And I barely got out of high school. So I lived a very different way. My parents were very laissez-faire. They didn't go to college.

They didn't have a way to help me know to go to college. I went surfing for my PSAT. I went surfing for my SAT. I got a zero on both of them. I went a very different path. I went to a community college. And then I fell in love with learning. Our backgrounds sound really similar. I can't believe I'm saying this. You said you barely got out of high school. What does that mean? Yeah. The world does not need a 17 or 18-year-old Mike. So I wasn't adding to anything. I was taking and I was operating out of pretty rich anxiety expressed through frustration. And I was as bored as a human could be in school. So I spent way too much time in the, well, strike that. I love everything I learned in the water, in the ocean surfing, but I was late to my classes. I was not stimulated. So I got terrible

grades and I didn't have any pathway to get into college. I really liked my life. I wouldn't trade it. I don't look back and say, if I would have done this, this, and this, I I'm pretty sure that I could have, if I was in a place, I could have done great in high school. I was not in the place. It wasn't my path. So when I think about this young boy that's at a crossroads between two parents that have different philosophies, I would do my very best to see the kid. And I'd be less interested about how the next phase is going to unfold and be more interested about pouring in to what he wants for his life, what his challenges are, what his dreams are, where he's inspired in his life and where he's scared.

And I'd also set forward like, listen, there's ways that you can game a system. You could take the easier road and get A's. That might open up some options. But what do you want? Do you want to challenge yourself? Are you okay if you take the AP classes and get B's? And that's part of your experience? Maybe you're going to write about that for your college essay.

I mean, I would just make it as simple as you can and see the kid. I don't feel like my parents loved me. I don't feel like I was. I was playing another game most of my my young life, which is to look like I had it all together. And so that's that's where I go. Wow. I mean, that's where I go. Wow. I mean, that was my high school experience verbatim. Barely graduated, faked it 100%.

That's wild. It's interesting because in this new world that we live in, I remember my son telling me that he didn't want to go to school, like he didn't want to finish school because high school. Yeah. And me transferring him from high school to high school to try to, you know, get him to do it. And I remember having this conversation with him and telling him, Hey man, listen, if you just, just graduate with the bare minimum,

just grab, I'll just graduate. The biggest thing for me was I wanted him to have a high school experience. I was like, it's just more so than the grades. And I was, you know, I was reprimanded for, by his mother for, for, for telling him this. Cause you know, I think, and I don't want to say this is an old school method, an old school way, right. Of thinking like, go to school, get the best grades you can get in the best college you can and then do this get a job and this that and the other kids nowadays the way they're growing up and the experiences they have

social media all these things i mean athletes now with um you know uh name image and likeness deals and all the things that we thought were correct are being rewritten anyway. So I love the advice that you're giving. Like just focus on the kid and ask him, what does he want to do? What do you want to do? And at the same time,

the kid doesn't have all the answers because they've only lived 15 years. So there's the balancing in there. It's a non-negotiable that my son's going to go to high school. That's right now school that's right now that's his job yeah so there's a couple of philosophical things like i had three jobs in high school i want my son his job to be volunteerism so i don't want i i worked for it was like four dollars and 28 cents an, whatever the minimum wage was at that dinosaur time ago.

And I learned a lot. It was great. And I learned to save up and to be able to da-da. I want my son to have the opportunity to be generative in his time and understand how to apply himself to give as opposed to work for a handful of dollars at this point. That sounds almost obnoxious

as I say it, because I didn't have that as a kid. And that's what I want. Or maybe I did, and I didn't know it. I don't know. But that is how I want. So his job right now is to go to school and to get his footing to be a global citizen, to apply himself to be his very best on a daily basis. Just do your best work, son. Just do your best. Apply your best. So I've got some shorthand processes that we put in place before he gets out of the car when I drop him off in the morning. What are your goals today? Before practice, he writes down three goals.

At the end of the day, we talk about the three goals he had for school and the three goals he had, um, how he did with them. And it's just a conversation start. Sometimes it's like that. I didn't write anything down. Uh, I don't know, dad, you know, sometimes it's like that, but more often than not, it's like, set your mind on what you want. And did you do your very best? I don't know what my best is that I'm trying. Okay. That's cool. There's some tension in that for you, huh? Yeah. There's a lot of tension. I feel pressure. Like if I don't do, oh, so where's the pressure coming from? And so then we open that up. You, dad? Really?

You know, like, okay, teach me. Because that's not how I want to. I want to have the pressure to help you be your very best and to get into the practice of understanding how to love yourself and strain at the edge and recover and love yourself and strain at the edge and recover. So I ask open-ended questions a lot of my son. What was the funniest thing that happened today? Where did you learn something about your friends today? What was scary? Where did you get up on the edge today? These are common questions that we'll throw around. And because the easy thing is,

how was your day? Fine. Did you learn some good stuff? Yes. How'd you do on your test? Good. So I've got to find more clever ways to elicit the values and the processes that I hope he'll get at a young age to be a global citizen in this world, going for it, recovering, applying himself, being okay in the messy edge, picking himself up when he goes through emotionally hard, like having a partner, me, my wife, to help him stand back up when he feels like he's been knocked down. Those are the ways that I'm navigating the relationship as opposed to the best school, best fit, as opposed to the best grade, your best effort. That's really a clever technique because those other questions are so cliche.

How was your day today? Fine. Good. And the kids give you the cliche response and they go to their room, lock the door, and then get on their phone and do some homework. As much as I would like to, you know, my daughter plays soccer and she plays soccer at a high level and she's getting recruited by big schools. And her mom is the sports parent, right? I purposely, as much as I love sports and training and working out and all that stuff, I purposely turn that off completely because her mom is the one who does that. And because I purposely turned it off,

I'm of the impression like, okay, I'm the fun guy. I'm the fun guy. I'm not gonna pressure you about your work. You know, if you wanna skip today, go ahead and skip. She has excellent grades. So she skipped half a day yesterday and we just drove around and I don't get mad at her. I don't say anything. I let her do whatever she wants.

So in my brain, in my mind, I'm the fun guy. So when I do want to ask questions about, well, listen, man, have you been hitting the track to get a little bit faster? You've been doing speed agility drills, you're stretching your hamstrings out, you're doing everything you need to do. You know what I'm saying?

You're working on your striking skills because you know, I know such and such, this school is looking at you. I feel like I've earned that right to ask those cliche questions that might trigger her, right? Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change.

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even after letting her skip school, even after doing all that stuff, when I go to those questions, I get annihilated. In what way? Like I'm the sports dad. Like, Dad, you don't understand. And I'm like, wait a minute. Am I being too laissez-faire, too passive, too disconnected? Because I almost feel like your kids, like the questions that you say that you ask your son

to avoid all the cliche things. That sounded hostile. Say it again? That sounded hostile. No, no, no, no, it wasn't, it wasn't. The questions you say you ask your son. No, no, no, the questions you ask your son. I'm passionate right now.

Okay, good. Do you, my question is actually, you ask your son no no no the question you you ask your son i'm passionate right now okay good do you my question is actually do you at times have you ever gotten a hostile response like what kid teenagers give you like man i don't know why you asked me all that one go to my room do you get those responses so that's just unavoidable yeah when i'm in conversations with people certainly with my son is uh one, their brains are still forming. Hormones are all over the shop. This social tax and the emotional tax in the school setting is high.

And so there's two things that I'm always doing is I'm listening to the words that somebody's saying, but I'm not inspecting and critiquing. I'm listening to how they're shaping their thoughts. I'm more interested in that than the actual words. I'm more interested in that than the actual story. And then the most interesting part is the emotion that I think that they're anchoring their words from. So if you were to listen to the emotional part of it and then address that, now we're

on the same page. So when my son's frustrated or sad or whatever it might be, or really happy, I say, oh, you light up when you talk about that. Yeah. And they'll just want to keep going when they are seen. And so the content is less interesting and less potent. The story of that is like candy, but it is the way that they are forming their thoughts that's telling you more about what they want to communicate that's on the surface level. And then underneath it's the emotions. And they will course correct

you. They meaning any other person you're in conversation with. If I say something to you and you say, oh, you seem agitated. I go, no, this isn't agitation. This is like excitement. So if you really think I'm agitated and you say that's like, wow, you're really agitated about that. I will show you or tell you the other language. I won't co-sign it. Very rarely happens that I'll co-sign that assignment of the emotion. So try that. Try that out. It's just listen to the emotion and then address that.

And then sometimes I'll say, hey, listen, I know you're emotional. Stay here. I know you want to go to your room. I want you to stay in this for just a little bit longer. I'm here with you. I want to talk about this. I know that I'm, you're right. I'm a little too hot too. I came off agitated. So now I'm talking about myself to give him some space. Just stay here for a minute. Let's actually have this

conversation. And other times say it's heated and he's like, I'm out of here. I'm going to my room. And I'll say, okay, look, hold on a minute. No problem. But we're going to talk about this when you come out you know let's have a let's finish this you know before bedtime or before dinner or something like that so and sometimes he'll slam the door and i'll go in there and i'll be like i don't think this is how we really want to do it like this isn't okay yeah so there's you know there's no one path but definitely connecting at the emotional levels is the more desirable way forward. Yeah, I feel like through this whole AMA, I've made myself sound like I'm a slickster.

I plan this, I make this go this way, but it doesn't go that way. I'm trying to avoid all the- Is that the narrative that's happening? I don't know, it seems like I'm just trying to avoid all the tough conversations, right? No, I appreciate it, because you also remind me to make sure that I'm indexing on where my blind spots are historically and the things like it's

easy to paint the easy the like the the hero image which is not at all what it's nauseating for me to even think that about myself so you you definitely bring this back to like my blind spots too which i really appreciate. I don't get slickster for you. I get you're trying to figure out your best ability too. I'm trying to paint the hero image. Are you? Yeah.

Doing a bad job, but I'm trying to paint the hero image. Everything's good in here. Ignore the fire. I'm okay. Oh God. Good man. Oh, all right. This is, listen, this has been amazing,

man. I appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you. I wasn't going to do something, but I felt like it might make you feel uncomfortable. The lights here are just so beaming and they're making my eyes water. So I was going to like,

like open my eyes as long as I couldn't let the tears roll down and be like, man, you really touched me. But then I was like, nah, I'm not going to do that. I'm trying to. That man,

you'd factored shit. That man. That's really good. Yeah. but then I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm trying to. That manufactured shit. That manufactured shit. You know, come on. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I've grown in this conversation, Dr. Mike, so. Come on, I appreciate you. No, I appreciate you. Oh, you do, you're being real.

I'm dead ass. That's what's up. Yeah, I hope that, like, you know, the thing that is in my head is that we don't get through many questions and there's a stack of them. So please keep sending your questions in. And maybe what we need to do on the next one is you and I go rapid fire.

Like I'll hold you and you hold me to a standard of like quick hit answers and see what that feels like. Maybe that's really a bad idea. But in my mind, I've got a list of people that I know, like I know that there was 15 questions for this interview or for this conversation and how many did we get to? I think three, two. Two, listen, I wanna apologize to all of you out there

because I wanna apologize. We'll get you, we'll get to you, I promise you. Keep them coming. Keep them coming. Appreciate you, An you. Promise you. Keep them coming. Keep them coming. Appreciate you, Anil. Appreciate you, Dr. Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful

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