Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Remembering Hilaree Nelson | Staying Confident in Life-Threatening Environments

Episode Date: March 25, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Hilaree Nelson.With a career spanning two decades that includes dozens of first descents through more than 40 expeditions to 16 different countries, Hilaree is the most prolific ski mountaineer of her generation. Some of these ‘firsts” in the world of ski mountaineering include linking two 8000m peaks (Everest and Lhotse) in one push, first ski descents on Baffin Island, a first American ascent and ski descent of Papsura peak in India , and a first ski descent of the 4th highest peak in the world, Lhotse. Hilaree is the Captain of the North Face Athlete Team, an active leader on climate with Protect Our Winters, and an avid proponent of wild places such as the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.She was also named by Men’s Journal as one of the most adventurous women of the last 25 years, as well as National Geographic’s 2018 Adventurer of the Year.In this conversation, Hilaree shares some key takeaways from her expeditions, where the wrong decision could mean the difference between life and death.We touch on everything from confidence to managing anxiety --- and that’s applicable for the difficult times we find ourselves in now.In Hilaree’s words:Managing anxiety starts with being present and dealing with what you have right in front of you. I break it up into things I can manage instead of overwhelming myself by trying to figure out the whole picture all at once._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. You know, you're talking about having to make really hard decisions and scary, not forgiving environments. And so I find that honesty is the best thing to bring to the table. And I'd like to think that I really know my skill set at this point. And I don't want to overplay it, but I'm learning really hard to not underplay it either. okay welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm michael gervais and by trade and training i'm a sport and performance psychologist as well as the co-founder of compete

to create and i just want to take a note I couldn't be more stoked to be part of this community than I am right now with the current conditions that we're all under. And I'm talking about COVID-19 and the coronavirus pandemic that we're experiencing. Our community is alive. It's strong. It's powerful. We are nimble. And like, I'm so stoked to be in it with you guys and to be part of this experience about what we're capable of and to also celebrate those of us who have been for years investing in quality thinking and quality health. So I know that many of you, your immune systems are strong and I know that many of us are worrying if we have what it takes. And I also know that there's real fear that's sitting underneath this thing. And I don't know

how it's going to work out. Nobody knows. The uncertainty is high. I notice it myself. And all of that being said, I'm so happy to be in it with you guys. I feel part of something very special. And if you're not in it yet, punch over to findingmastery.net forward slash tribe, as well as find us on social at Michael Gervais on Insta, Twitter, LinkedIn as well. And, you know, I just, I don't know. There's a lot going on for all of us. And I'm thankful that we have this community that we can share together with. And I'm honored to be part of it and a curator of it. And with that, these conversations are about helping understand how people have found incredible insight. Like, where do they come from?

And I'm not talking about place in the world, but like their psychology. How do they think and organize their inner life to do the extraordinary, to understand the human experience at a deeper level? And that is all of the path of mastery. And let's just remember that the goal is to be on the path. And I'd like to believe, although I don't know, if you're here and you're part of this community, you're on the path. And I'd like to believe, although I don't know, if you're here and you're part of this community, you're on the path. And at the same time, you know, no one's perfect. Like you fall off the path. That's okay. I do too. We'll figure it out. That's why we got each

other, you know, to hold each other accountable at deeper levels. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes,

and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery

that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein.

I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay.

All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving

the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Hillary Nelson. Okay. She's got a career spanning over two decades that includes dozens of first

descents. It's a big deal in the wild. We're talking about up in mountaintop. She's a mountaineer first and foremost, and she's a, you know, an expedition guide as well, but she's a kick-ass skier. Like she's just got this, this amazing world that she lives in. It's a big deal to have first descents. And she's had more than 40 expeditions to 16 different countries. Hillary is the most prolific ski mountaineer of her generation, of our generation. And some of her firsts in the world of ski mountaineering include linking two 8,000 meter peaks, Everest and Lhotse. And she did it in one push. It's amazing what she's done. And she's been across continents. She's been on the highest

peaks of the world. And her story is incredible. Hillary is the captain of the North Face athlete team. She's also an active leader on climate change with Protect Our Winners. And she's an avid proponent of wild places such as the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. She was also named, how cool is this, by Men's Journal, one of the most adventurous women of the last 25 years, as well as National Geographic's 2018 Adventurer of the Year. And in this conversation, Hillary shares some key takeaways from her expeditions where the wrong decision could mean the difference between life and death. We touch on everything ranging from confidence to managing anxiety. And it's certainly applicable to the difficult times that we're finding ourselves in right

now. In Hillary's words, this is how she puts it, managing anxiety starts with being present and dealing with what you have right in front of you. I break it up into things I can manage instead of overwhelming myself by trying to figure out the whole picture at once. Amazing. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Hillary Nelson. Hillary, how are you? I'm great. Yeah, I'm pretty good. How are you? Yeah. This is a uniquely timed conversation because your background is extraordinary and you spend time in some of the most consequential, beautiful places in the world out in mother nature. And

here we are in the midst or right at the heart, beginning heart, I guess, for coronavirus and being locked up, like being, you know, like we're contaminated hosts. And so you're, you're, you're sitting in your home right now and you're normally on sitting on the side of a cliff somewhere. Yeah, most definitely. Um, and I'll be the first to tell you that like, I, I get my sanity from being outside and that kind of engagement with mother nature and just getting my heart rate up every day. And, uh, yeah, so this is really something very different and unique for me, as it is for everybody. I mean, we're all, uh, new to this and I don't think any of us thought coming. No, certainly. What, what would you say just as a as a sliver in time right now, let's say the last 24 hours,

on a scale of 1 to 10, and 10 being the most stress you can feel, right? Like chronic stress that you can feel. Where are you on that scale right now? Wow, it's kind of tough to put a number to it because I feel like one minute I'm at a 9, then the next minute, you know, I, I'm at like a two or a three because A, the news is changing minute by minute. And B, it's like, I get super stressed because I'm trying to homeschool and I'm not good at it. And kids are around and we're all in this house and you know I'm losing jobs left and right and the stress level goes up but then I take a couple breaths and I'm like but I have everyone that I love in this house with me I am having time and experiencing and experience it is totally unique and you know I live in this beautiful place.

I can still, you know, sneak outside and walk through the snow. So it's kind of, it's this crazy, like goes from a two where I'm calm to, to pinned. And I wouldn't say I've been at a 10 yet, but pretty pinned stress level wise. So, but that, but it happens like 10 times in a day right now. And when, what are you doing when you, how good are you recognizing in a nine? Like when it starts ramping from a four, five, seven, eight, nine, like how good are you at recognizing that ramp and how good are you bringing it back down? I'd say when I have more space in a different situation, I'm pretty good at recognizing it. But right now, unfortunately, I seem to like kind of be exploding. You know, for me, all the tension

is in my body. It's really visible. And then I'll, I'll yell a little bit here and there. And then, and then that kind of, I guess, I guess is is a good release but maybe it's not the best if you're if you're just yelling it's fine yeah right i know i mean if you're yelling at your kids you know your husband just a little bit um uh so i'm trying i'm trying to actually get on top of that like just before we started talking i just went outside and like paced up and down. I kind of, we live up that far into town and I just was pacing up and down the alley and breathing in some fresh air and it was a lot better. I mean, it's a gorgeous, sunny, beautiful day. It just snowed a foot outside. You're in Colorado. Incredible. I'm in Colorado. Yeah. So it's

this absolutely gorgeous day. Um, you know, so getting out just, just a little bit of pacing, you know, has been, is helpful because I think something really important and I want to get into your history in just a moment, but I think something that's really important is that you have developed a life that involves being in mother nature in, like I said, like really dangerous environments that calls on your skill, that calls on every facet of your being to be highly technically skilled, to express that and to be mentally focused, um, and to be calm and locked into the present moment, all of that stuff. And here you are now away from those environments that

give you great purpose and meaning electricity, if you if you will, of being highly engaged. And that as a lifestyle, as also a coping strategy for life has been stripped away. And you could supplant, I think many people in our community can supplant in their life work, the office life for the mountain life that you live and um and we're all feeling something very similar you know so yeah i'm locked down right now and in los angeles like we can only go out for essential moments and um yeah so i think many people are feeling it but let's do this right oh sorry go it's just, it is, it's like you're, whether it's going outside to do some extreme thing or a deadline in your office or some group project you're working on, we're all being asked to like shelve this sense of purpose that we try to have in our lives. And,

uh, it's really, it's, it's, it's interesting. Yeah. Okay. So let's do this. Let's set up the context just a bit. We first met at Aspen Institute. I had known of your work for a long time. And can you give a quick frame to folks that are not familiar with not only you, but your line of work, like how you live?

Can you explain that from a, you know, the cheap seats, if you will? Yeah. So for almost two decades now, I have been professionally working as a ski mountaineer and that involves for the professional side of it is I work for companies that sponsor me. Wait a minute. Hold on. You know what? Like all of a sudden you're being super humble because I know you are. Listen, Hillary, like what I want to say is you're one of the three best on the planet, you know, like doing what you do.

And I don't think anybody's going to deny that. So take us, take us So take me to that place. I mean, so I basically plan and try to execute to the best of my abilities these sort of audacious expeditions in remote parts of the globe. And that includes everything from Mount Everest to the Burmese jungle and pretty much everything in between. I was just in Antarctica in January. I sort of specialize in high altitude things. It's not just climbing.

I like to carry my skis on my back and then ski down some of these things. So Lhotse, the fourth highest peak in the world. I skied with my partner Jim Morrison in 2018. I've tried to do some high-altitude link-ups of 8,000-meter peaks. And a lot of just exploration, you know, I, a trip to the Isla South Georgia, where we went on this tiny schooner across the Scotia Sea for a week, and then spent a month in the middle of nowhere climbing this, these crazy mountains and windstorms of 140 miles an hour. And like, that's, that's like my, my zone. I don't know. So it's, it's like, yeah. And so, um, you're sponsored. That's how you generate like the funds to be able to support your life. Correct. And so, um, like North face. Yep. What are some of the other brands that are your title sponsors? Uh, North face is my main title sponsor. I mean,

I've been with them since the very beginning. Uh, also blizzard, blizzard and technica skis and boots, uh, Joel bow. I wear, um, I do a lot of stuff with national geographic is like one of their, are you an explorer? I'm not an in-resident explorer but I was like their adventure one of their adventurers of the year for 2018

and then I am one of their basically full-time speakers for their Nat Geo live circuit around the country Yeah, that's a really cool circuit Yeah, Pretty cool. Um, granted my one that I was just supposed to do in LA and Cerritos last week

was canceled, but, um, yeah, but yeah, so that's kind of the backend business side of it, uh, is how it gets funded and testing equipment and all that kind of stuff.

And when you speak, what is it that you speak about most often? is how it gets funded and testing equipment and all that kind of stuff. And when you speak, what is it that you speak about most often? So with the National Geographic, I received a grant from them in 2014 to go and explore the very northern part of Myanmar and try and climb the highest peak in Southeast Asia called Hakakabo Razi. And it was an eight-week expedition that was absolutely one of the most intense things I've ever done in my life. And normally, you know, you're just dealing with elements. But in this case case we also had this crazy team dynamic implosion and a lot of life and death situations and so that's that trip I talk about specifically

with National Geographic but it takes on a much more broader uh broader aspect in terms of just talking about human dynamics and how you deal with fear and how you deal with poor communication and hardship and group dynamics and all of that. So it kind of, it's, it's specifically about this one trip, but it really does take on a big, a lot broader sense for most people. And let's, we're right now in a high alert, high phase of uncertainty. Right. And so what are some of your important insights on how humans manage uncertainty? Like you've been in uncertain situations where, and I think there was one storyline that you shared where it's kind of like almost hard to imagine, but you had to, you were climbing and you had to step over people that had been, that had died before you. And yeah, that was on Everest. Yeah. And so I'm not sure if that's where you want to take the conversation for uncertainty, but like that level of knowing that the places that you're in, the conversation for uncertainty, but like that level of knowing

that the places that you're in, the uncertainty is so high. So in such a way that people have died before you based on the decisions that they've made or didn't make. And so can you just talk about some of the insights you have about how to manage uncertainty and work well with it? I mean, the thing I find that works for me the most, like, so, so uncertainty, if you extrapolate a little bit, I mean, the one place it goes to is fear. If you're uncertain about something, and more often than not, that that creates fear in your body and your brain, wherever you process it. For me, it's all in my chest. Everybody has a place where they have fear and anxiety. I think where it's physically manifested.

What I find works for me is, and I get asked this a lot, like how you have this eight week expedition. How do you even manage to take one foot in front of the other when you know you have this huge massive thing in front of you and how I really how I explain it is that for me I have to compartmentalize I can't look at the entire picture at one time I have to take it one step at a time and if I say absolutely like in a very physical sense, I will look only 10 steps ahead of me. And I'll make it those 10 steps. And then I'll stop and I'll take a breath and I'll be like, okay, I can do 20 steps now. And I'll go those 20 steps. And for sure you can take that into life in general, into what we're going through right now.

And be like, well, we don't know when this is going to end. We don't know how much worse it's going to get. Something changes every single day. Well, that causes me a ton of anxiety. It scares me for my kids. It scares, I mean, it scares all of us for a number of reasons, our jobs, our sanity. But if we just, I mean, this isn't like a new concept. It's about being present and dealing with what you have right in front of you, giving yourself the space to just make it through that much of the uncertainty and then take on another chunk. And maybe for other people, that chunk is a hundred steps. Maybe for some people it's two steps, but you just have to, at least for me, I have to break

it up into things I can manage instead of overwhelming myself by trying to figure out the whole picture all at once. You know, it is. So when you talk about anxiety, when you talk about fear, it is, it's a healthy response to preparing for the unknown, right? So it becomes a problem when it becomes chronic. And that's what the technical term anxiety is. Like we throw around the term anxiety, like it's like, oh, worry. But when it's chronic, it becomes really alarming. And it actually, interestingly enough,

is the thing that compromises our immune system at a radical clip. And the war that we're in right now is the war of the immunity. So there's two wars, right? There's the front line, which is keep your hands clean and keep some space. And then there's the internal war that's taking place, which is stress, sleep, proper nutrition, optimism, thinking, love and curiosity. All of those are inoculators to the stripping of resources from high stress, anxiety, fear, anger, frustration, you know, all the things that our immunity gets compromised with. And your example is so metaphorically spot on, which is if your mind's way out there, well, maybe you got to just think about what action you

can take today. And if that feels too big, maybe it's what action can I take this hour? And if that feels too big, maybe it's what action can I take right now? And that action might be as simple as one step or it might be one breath, you know, or one thought, you know. It might be bending down and just touching your toes or I don't know, just something to kind of bring you into the now. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday,

what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentous Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested.

NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off

your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about

Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science.

And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix gray. You spell it F E L I X G R a y.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at Felix gray.com for 20% off. Can you take me through a time that you learn this in the most dynamic way? So conceptually, you and I are riffing right now. And it's like, yeah, intellectually, that sounds good. But is there a moment that you've made the decision that yeah, no, no, no, this is real. This is exactly how I need to operate,

which is right here right now. I mean, I always take it back to expeditions, because I feel like they are really a great platform for metaphor. Uh, and because I've already brought up the Myanmar one, that was a really good example of where, I mean, I had chronic anxiety about that trip. If, um, I was leading the expedition, uh, it was a group of all very a-type, high-performing alpine climbers.

I received a hefty grant from National Geographic. I just felt like I had a ton of pressure on me. Before you start on the work goes sideways, I don't know this. What is it like to be a female as the lead? And when I think of the climbing world and the expedition world, it's heavily male-oriented. And tell me if I'm wrong. Yeah, no, you're not. Yeah. And so is it a unique experience to be a female lead?

And is there a difference for them or probably more for them because you're just doing you? But can you set the context there for a little bit, the uniqueness of you being a leader? Yeah. I mean, again, this wasn't like a specifically science-based expedition. And I point that out because I feel like you can fall into having more female leads on a science base. This was pure adventure. This was exploration, climbing an unknown route, trying to organize logistics within a country that had only recently allowed Westerners into this part of their country in almost two decades. So it was incredibly complicated. And no, you don't see females in that role very often.

And it wasn't me being a female leading a team of females. It was me with, we were three men and three women. So we were equally divided. One of the females was the base camp manager. So she didn't actually know, equally divided. One of the females was the base camp manager. So she didn't actually go onto the mountain, but it was, it's a unique thing to start with. And I was just at a place in my life where I was so ready for this and I had led other expeditions before, but it was almost like that added pressure of National Geographic. I mean, it's National Geographic. It was really scary for me.

And I was fairly unable on that whole expedition to kind of go back to not being able to be present in that anxiety. All I could see was the whole trip. All I could see was coming back home with a failure. And I'm a really big believer in manifesting your own destiny. And I think that I really manifested from the very beginning this negativity, this, this fear that, um, of, of not succeeding. And just for like a clarity point, how much of that is based on gender? How much is based on skill and how much was based on, I guess, skill is like the opposite of that is the real challenge. And I'm, I hope I'm not being insensitive, but I'm trying to put myself in your position of what it's like to be you in that environment. I think a lot of it was gender and skill. I am notoriously, and I think, I don't want to speak for all women out there,

but there have been studies for sure that show women are not as adept at embracing their skill set. And whether they have it or not, I have the skill set. I know I have the skill set. But I tell myself that I need to work harder. I'm not good enough. I'm not as good as the guys I'm climbing with, so I have to work harder. I'm not good enough. I don't, I'm not as good as the guys I'm climbing with. So I have to work harder. Like that's my sort of hamster wheel that goes on in my head

when I'm climbing. So I had that, I think that huge challenge coming into this really dangerous climb that we were facing thinking that I wasn't good enough. Uh, and then, yeah, I'm a female leading this expedition with, uh, climb male climbers who were definitely more significant Alpine climbers than me. So I'm a mountaineer. I like to ski down things. This had no, this was the first time I'd ever been on a trip without bringing my skis. Uh, And I was intimidated for sure. And I don't think that's a good way to step into something as a leader is already on your heels and intimidated. Not ideal. But you know what I love right now, it's evident, is you have this courage to speak the truth and to be vulnerable in it, but there is zero weakness.

It's an amazing kind of thing that you've, you're doing even right now. It's like, here it is. It's very practical. It's very vulnerable in a sense. And the courage is demonstrated by your honesty. And I'm, but there's no weakness in it. It's like strength. And I'm wondering if this is one of your crown jewels, your ability to assess honestly. Uh, I mean, I hope so. It's definitely something I have been working on for a long time because, you know, you're talking about having to make really hard decisions and scary environments where it's just not forgiving environments. And so I find that honesty is the best thing to bring to the table. And I'd like to think that I really know my skill set at this point and I don't want to overplay it, but I'm learning really hard to not underplay it either.

Can we pull on that thread a little bit? Like what it was like growing up that has led you to have this ability to make hard decisions and to get into very dangerous consequential environments and do well? Wow, that's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I grew up in a intact household and meaning, you know, my parents are still married. And I grew up very much in traditional sports. So I played a lot of basketball and I definitely wasn't the best, but I was super scrappy and I worked really hard. And, um, uh, I think I had a big portion of my childhood also spent on a boat, which seems a little bit random, but my whole family, which you think would help me in our coronavirus

situation, but we spent a lot of time growing up on this small wooden boat, um, up in the Northwest passage, um, in Canada, um, outside of Seattle and, uh, just living off the land. You know, when my parents would get in a fight, we'd all jump into the little like row boat and row around the boat until they stopped fighting. Stuff like that. That's funny. During those moments, you would go to nature. You'd huddle with your team and you'd go to nature.

Yeah, my brother and sister and I were like, oh, time to get in the little paddle, the little rowboat. Are your parents still alive? My parents are still alive. Yeah. They live in Seattle, which is the epicenter of all this going on right now. And obviously, my dad's 82. My mom's 79. So they're in that demographic of being really exposed to the whole situation. So what were some of the big things that you learned growing up, you know, that are applicable to maybe transferable to all people, but certainly you, as we start to map some of your, your framework of how you do what you do. um my my maybe one thing I've been trying to undo I guess is that my dad is a very volatile

individual you know and so he was the the man on the side of the basketball court just screaming and yelling always getting kicked out of the whole game by the referees and stuff um and from that I learned I call it the duck and dive. Like I really learned how to like be invisible and to duck and dive and to kind of like hide out in certain ways. Um, and that's something I've actually been trying to undo because I think it's more important to be able to stand my ground, have a voice in the moment, take on confrontation. Look at that. Your expedition.

I'm working on this. Yeah, but your expedition. Oh, look at that. Your expedition was right at the center of that, right? Which is like, I'm out front. Here I am. Here's my voice. And it was the thing. Okay, here's your second crown jewel. If I could be so bold for

a moment, maybe your second crown jewel is that you are fundamentally committed to growing. Yeah, I 100% agree with that every day. Oh, my hair's standing up right now yeah like that's it huh okay so talk to me about that god i love this i mean okay so there's this one point on this burma expedition when we're at high camp and basically the the three guys on the team had gotten together and decided that they were the best ones to continue on and go to the summit and emily and i were going to stay behind and they did this without talking. Oh.

Oh, so it's a little coup happening. At what type of elevation, at what point of the trajectory are we talking? Oh, we were, you know, four weeks into this thing, we were on this ridge line at 18,000 feet. The wind was blowing steadily like 40, 50 miles an hour. Wait, wait, wait wait wait wait ridge line on a ridge oh yeah it was like really gnarly conditions super scary we were almost out of food are you um in that classic kind of tent thing that you're hanging off the side and sleeping

yeah yeah basically we're 40 miles that's right we're like in the tent we're still we're on a platform on snow so still we're not like uh on a portaledge or anything okay but i but i went in and i went in to talk to i went into the tent with two of the guys on the expedition you know and they're telling me that i'm basically like they don't want to climb with me. They don't trust my skills, so on and so on. And I hear myself answering back, like, you don't think I'm good enough. You don't think I'm strong enough to do this. And more than anything, more than being mad at those guys, I'm so pissed at hearing myself looking for approval instead of just tackling the situation head on by saying like, whoa, I don't care what you guys think. We need to just start over as a, as a group and figure this out.

And instead I just was, I got totally like a, like I was as a 12 year old, just like, I'll do whatever, you know, however you guys think is better. You don't think I'm good enough to do this, then I must not be good enough. You know, like, really funny. I've learned a lot from that. That's actually that, let's call that a crisis, right? Is that when our old, unexamined, unskilled, vulnerable and small responses that we had from a young age for survival. Like as a young kid, we're trying to sort it out and survive. We're trying, you know, we don't know. And then a strategy is to play it small.

And as an adult, the strategy to play it small no longer is probably going to work for you unless it was like some sort of, I don't know, back alley knife threat. You know, maybe that is right. You know, there's a lot of smart ways to manage those situations, but this wasn't the time for it for you. And that was the crisis. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and you know, it's, again, it's all stuff like, it's just life, you know, I like, I like learning and I I like to I'd like to think that was almost six years ago and um you know I made a lot of changes in my life since that expedition and I feel like it's uh all been really good stuff and you know jump forward to trying to make the first ski descent of Lhotse in 2018. And I felt very much more solid on my feet,

managing fear a lot better. Anxiety wasn't quite anxiety anymore. It was more just like a stressful situation versus like what you're talking about, chronic anxiety. Isn't that amazing how really hard situations give us a perspective of what we can do? Oh my gosh, they do. And so if you were to- Maybe that's what this is all about, the coronavirus.

We're all, we're learning perspective. Yeah, I can't wait to get your take on that. And because you have a really unique perspective on the planet. And so I want to, I do want to hit your take on what you think this possible silver lining for Corona is. But if we could go back to your expedition at the moment where you were confronted,

how would you want to replay that if you had a do over, which we don't get, you know, but if you could do it over, what is the best version of you look and sound and feel like? I mean, I've had a lot of time to think about this. And I think the best version would have been for me to go into that tent and just be like, wow, you guys, that's so great. You figured this out all by yourselves, but that just doesn't work for me. And it doesn't work for Emily. And we're going to start over and maybe we'll come to the same conclusion, but we're not getting to that conclusion the way you guys have done it.

Yeah. Okay. That's it. Can you tell that I thought about this a little bit? Yeah. It's there for you. Yeah. Yeah. Have you had a chance to get anything close to that where you got to enact that script? Um, I mean, I'm, I'm in such a different place. I feel like, yeah, I've been on some very, uh, intense expedition since then. And I have been able to really, I think what I need to do is instead of being super reactive, I have to just take a couple of breaths, whether it's five seconds or 20 seconds, and then really try to think through what I'm being confronted with. And I feel like I wasn't able to do that. And it wasn't just Burma, there were other expeditions like that, too. You know, we all have our personal lives going on to add to anxiety, stress. But now I feel like, yeah,

there have been situations on expeditions where I can be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not comfortable with this. Let's stop for a second and reassess. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for

40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better.

And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery.

Why have you chosen a life of environments of consequence? As opposed to being a psychologist. The consequences are different in some respects, but like, why, why have you chosen this way? I mean, it wasn't something I set out to do in my early twenties, but as I, as I found my way in this passion, this path, it is something that it's hard to explain. I feel like I came out of my childhood, my college, always so like, almost like a chameleon. And I didn't know who I was and you wouldn't believe how fast you can get to know yourself when you're in situations of consequence and I really think that is what it's all about and I I think all of us every one of us know so little about ourselves really and that's why I've been able to, to keep doing this for so long

is because there's still so much I think I need to know and learn about myself. And when you know more about yourself, my hair stands up in this part of the conversation. Like when you know more about yourself, what is the purpose of that for you? I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to make it bigger than it is, but what's the purpose for you? I mean, for me, it's confidence. I, again, go back to growing up, college, even most of my 20s, I just was so insecure, like paralyzingly so almost. And maybe it doesn't seem like that from the outside, but taking these risks and I have a mathematical brain too. So taking these risks and being able to analyze them and figure them out and put the puzzle pieces together, that's like

confidence to me. And that gives me, and I don't mean confidence of like walking into a room with my chest puffed out and like, I got this. It's more like confidence to know that I can handle this. Um, I can handle the curve ball. I can handle whatever comes my way. And I may not always be gracefully. I may not, I may, I may like still yell at my kids on occasion, but like I can handle it. Um, and you know, I'm a survivor and that's what I've learned from all of these trips is that I'm a survive, you know, I can survive. I am, I have confidence going into a situation and I know, I know myself. Yeah. Cause you know, it's a, you know, it's amazing. Um, I hear the, the thoughtfulness as you're choosing words and the importance of self-discovery and knowing yourself to be able to be right. Like you in any environment to accept the curve balls and do well with them.

And then you said I'm a survivor. And to me, that part actually was a bit confusing because I see you as so much more than a survivor. I see you as somebody who's actually an adventure and a pioneer and explorer, which is not like holding onto the edge of the cliff for dear life. But help, help me calibrate that word for you. Yeah. I mean, and maybe survivor just isn't the right word. It's more just, um, I'm a, I had this passion and I was able to stick with it. And that, that required a lot of decisions that had sacrificed to them.

And I think that's where the survivor comes from is, you know, overcoming some of those sacrifices and still, still being here and being on the right, being what I think is on the right path for me. Um, you know, continuing to do this after having kids, continuing, um, to, to bring my, my family into this life with me. When you go away four months at a time and you're going to go to a dangerous environment, like what is your partner and your kids? Like, what is that like?

Well, I divorced about five years ago now. So my partner now is someone who I go on expeditions with a lot of the time which I had never done that prior uh you know my my my kids are it's it's funny people ask me a lot like how how do your kids manage this it must be so hard for them and what I'm realizing, and this is what I set out to accomplish sort of in the beginning, because I put a lot of thought into me continuing this career after having kids was that this life, this profession that I have is absolutely normal to them. I mean, I went on to Pakistan when my first son was 10 months old, and three weeks in the Arctic refuge when my second son was 10 months old. So they, they are so habituated to this lifestyle that it's very normal to them. And so they're

very much a part of the conversation, a part of the planning. They, they look at the maps with me. They know the people that I'm going with. Uh, and we have conversations about life and death and everything that is around these points. But, um, it's, it's, it's really crazy to see how normal it is to them. Okay. So you're integrated. Your life is integrated. It's not like something you're sneaking away to do to get your fix. This is like a full integrated health approach. Fully integrated. Like I try to go to their schools and do talks whenever they're talking about different cultures that I've come across or mountains or whatever it is. So I spend a lot of time doing that. I've, you know, taken my kids to base camps of 8,000 meter peaks in Nepal. They were on Kilimanjaro with me when they were like four and six years old. You know, they go into these places with me too and see them. So. Okay. So, uh, very tactical question. Then I want to go kind of go big

is if I were to, I've never climbed before. And if, if I, if I wanted to do, I don't need to do something that is, I just, I want to try being out in nature for a bit longer and something that, you know, there's some stress about it. And so just to get to that internal experience that only mother nature can provide. I did an ultra last year, a standup paddle across Pacific ocean, which was, yeah, it was, it was super intense. No, no, it wasn't multi. It was, no, it was eight and a half hours, but it was only supposed to be six and a half. So I, you can tell that I kind of screwed up my, my, um, carbohydrate load there. So, um, all that being said is, um, where would I, where would be a place that I would start?

You know, is it Kilimanjaro? Is that a place? And I know you'll say, no, no, no. Pick some local mountain first, dude. Well, I mean, I would actually, I would would say i think it depends on it depends for one on what your ultimate goal is because a lot of why i travel to remote places is because i love so much the culture of what i'm experiencing as well as the mountains so uh but i i would i would always suggest starting somewhere in your backyard, like even going up to the Pacific Northwest and spending some time in the North Cascades or around Mount Rainier or something like that.

There you go. And doing something that's at least one or probably two overnights would be my biggest thing. Okay. Probably two overnights would be my biggest thing. And trying out winter camping. Like most people are so scared of the thought of camping in the snow, but it's actually, I think it's so much better than any other kind of camping because you're just in this white landscape. You have water accessible all around you. You just dress for warmth and you it's just um it's

quiet it's just clean it's beautiful to be out in a winter landscape so that's just me i might be a little twisted but i think it's pretty nice i love it okay so you've seen so many cultures and so many different types of people how would you answer this thought stem? Humans are? Tenacious. Is the first word that comes to mind. What we need is? Space. That might be a direct result of being cooped up right now.

Being cooped up. Yeah, it's actually one of the, I don't know, kind of bits of gold dust, or maybe it's pure gold for mindfulness, is that you create more space internally, more space between your thoughts, more space between your mind and your body and your environment, just so you can play a little bit more. Right. Do you have a mindfulness or meditation practice? I don't.

Not one that I can say I do every day, but I would consider my time in the mountains, even if it's just in my own backyard, as my meditation. Of course, yeah. That's how I get present. Yeah, of course. I wish I had more of like a 10-minute- A sitting, yeah. Something that I could do sitting.

Okay. How about this? It all comes down to time. Oh, what does that mean? How, how you look at time, how you make space within time, how you value your time, other people's time. Very cool. What do you hope that you're going to give your kids? And maybe this is a hope for what you, you know, an emblem for what you would hope based on your learnings and insights that humanity would get. But what do you hope? I mean, that one's easy for me, a passion.

I mean, and sometimes a passion is really hard to have and it sucks and it requires a lot of things that have sacrificed, but it's a compass and it's gives you a purpose and it, um, gets you out of bed in the, during, you know, life can be, life is beautiful, but it can be really hard. And I think a passion is something that gives you direction. That's what I want for them. What about, um, how do you parse this living with passion or having a passion? Hmm. That's an interesting question. I always would say having a passion. Uh, but I, I'm very intimate with living with passion. Yeah. I see you as living with passion. The mountain is the place that it's easier for you.

But in this conversation, I don't, it doesn't feel like you lack passion. No. I mean, I guess when I, when I think of it in terms of living with passion, it's like, it's something that's with you all the time. And there's, there's, believe me, there's plenty of times when I, I don't want it with me when I wish, no, I wasn't waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat because I'm feeling, I'm feeling myself manifest some remote mountain climb and knowing that it's inevitably going to come about. Um, so that all of that is passion to me and that's like living with passion and, uh, it's, it can be a rollercoaster and I know it can be tough to live with sometimes.

It's really hard because I think, um, it's pretty clear that fear gets in the way of passion and fatigue when we're tired. Right. It's really hard to wake up with all that zest and zeal and, you know, kind of fire in the belly. So those are the two that I work my ass off to make sure that I'm honoring, that I'm recovering properly. And when my mind gets too far out against things that are wild, that I bring it back.

And how do you work within yourself when something gets scary? And I think that we've already kind of covered it. And you said, like, you come back. But, like, how do you do it inside your thoughts? I mean, I guess, are you talking about sort of just on a day-to-day basis or when I'm actually in a really scary situation on a on a mountain somewhere i'm thinking in the day-to-day because i'm interested in the transferability of what you've learned in the consequential environments um i mean i guess it kind of goes back to to to breaking things into small pieces for me. I, you know, right now I get, you know, I'm so afraid of a lot of things right now based on what our current reality has become in the last week. And so

I feel that I always, I'm always like touching my throat because that's where that that fear panic level is for me and I just try to close my eyes and maybe this is my meditation I close my eyes I try to get like a steady breathing that goes really deep into my belly you, for 30 seconds, 10 seconds, even if I have that much time. And, and then, um, I really try to, it sounds funny, but I really try to look behind my eyelids, you know, and just see the, the way the light plays in there. And then that sort of, it sounds so random, but that sort of just, uh, brings me into the present and helps me like cut the little things up. And I'd stop the hamster wheel in my head. Who is the Hillary that says, I don't have a meditation practice?

What Hillary is that? I don't know. That's exactly. Oh, goodness. You're too much. This is why I always have enjoyed speaking with you because your, your practicality and your vulnerable strength and courage that you have and matched by this ridiculous technical skill. I mean, you know, one of the things that always stands out or not always, but stands out is

that your hands and your arms and your frame, you're, you're built like a, gosh, what's the, like exactly what you would imagine, you know, an elite athlete to look like that's going to hang on the side of a mountain. Like, so you've got all the, like, is it easy for you to be physically dynamic? Is that easy? Or are you working at the clip I would imagine, which is really hard work? I mean, I'm working a lot harder at it now than I was 15 years ago, that's for sure. Somebody asked me the other day if what I thought was going to slow me down first, my, my physical aging or my mental motivation? And I thought that was a really good question. And I would have always thought it would be my, my physical aging, but I, now I, now I kind of think it's, it's like, but you were kind of alluding to a little in this conversation

a little earlier. It's, it's that that mental motivation that waking up and being like i'm stoked i got this i'm gonna do this and um um yeah so i would say physically i definitely have to work at it but i live in you know tell you right colorado i live at 9 000 feet in the mountains i can just walk up my door i'm very lucky um and be right there right in the thick it. There's some pretty rowdy stuff around here. Rowdy. I love it. Okay. So last two questions. One is heavy and one is more fun. The heavy one is like, how do you think about mastery, this concept? How do you define it, articulate it? You know, how do you get your arms around the concept? Ah, I think that mastery is when you're, you're, you're in your mastery when it's almost like When you can see between the cracks and you can almost foresee what's coming at you.

I feel like I've had that sensation a few times in what I do. And in many ways, it makes up for my physical aging because I have this mental mastery that gives me more time because I can see between the lines. And I've done this so many times, and that's mastery to me. It's a really incredible feeling where you're in it. You're a part of it. It's pretty cool. Yeah, there you're in it. You're a part of it. It's pretty cool. Yeah, there you go. Okay. So here's the second question, which is where can people find you? You know, you've got an important voice and where can we follow along and learn more from you? You can find me, I have a website, hillarynelson.com and Instagram. I spend a lot of time on that as well. Uh, that's also at Hillary Nelson. We just put, um, a movie out. It's short, uh, 23, 24 minutes called Lhotse.

Uh, and that definitely gives you a good insight into who I am a little bit. Um, and it's about our 2018 climb, but yeah, that's, that's where I am. Awesome. And it's, it's really fun to follow along, uh, on Insta and what you're doing. Yeah. And then, um, where can we download the movie? You can get it on YouTube or off the North face website. Yeah. Okay. And then Hillary is spelt uniquely H I L A R E E named after. Named after, well, the R E E came from my mother's cousin, Rie who she was pretty close to. And so that's how my name got spelled with R E E on the end.

But the Hillary isn't a family name or anything. It's not. It's not a name she liked yet. Perfect. Hillary Nelson on Instagram.com and then check out your um your movie as well and i want to say thank you for the way that you carry um your ability to speak the truth and to hold honesty at the presence and or at the present and not give this marketing media narrative of the way that you want people to see

you or, but just to get to the truth of it. Like here's the brass tacks, here's the hard parts, here's the fun parts. Yeah. Oversharing sometimes maybe. Yeah, no, I think it's a beautiful demonstration of authenticity, which you can't buy it. You have to earn it. And so I want to say thank you for reminding me and all of us of that. So, okay. All the best to you. Yeah. I'm looking forward to next time. Yeah.

I'm looking forward to next time we connect as well. All right. Great. Thanks. Okay. Take care. Bye. All right.

Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already,

please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com

slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels

is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.