Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Rich Froning Jr., 4x Fittest Man on Earth

Episode Date: July 25, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Rich Froning Jr., dubbed the Fittest Man in History after winning four back-to-back individual CrossFit Games championships (2011-2014).He also won the worldwide Open for three consecutive years (2012-2014), and when he retired from individual competition after the 2014 season, he captained his affiliate’s team, CrossFit Mayhem Freedom, to two back-to-back Affiliate Cup championships in 2015 and 2016.When I mentioned to a couple of my friends that Rich was coming on, they raised their eyebrows and nodded, "That’s going to be a great one.”Rich’s point of view comes from being recognized as the best in the world at his craft.It’s clear Rich understands winning – and the costs associated with it.In Rich’s words: “To be the best in the world at anything, you’re not balanced. You can’t be balanced.”So if you knew that ahead of time, would you still pursue it? It’s a great question and why I love these conversations so much.They really make you think about who you are and what you value most – at least they do for me._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I woke up every morning to be the fittest man on earth. I wanted to, I wanted to win at all costs, no matter what I sacrificed a lot. When I woke up every breath I took, um, every waking hour, my goal was to win the CrossFit games and I sacrificed a lot. When I woke up, every breath I took, every waking hour, my goal was to win the CrossFit Games. And I sacrificed a lot. Would I change that? Probably not. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais.

And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist and also the co-founder of Compete to Create. And my partner there is head coach Pete Carroll, the Seattle Seahawks, where we're taking his insights about how to switch on a culture and my insights about how to train the minds of people who want to be their very best. And we're taking those practices into business and it's been phenomenal. It's been a blast. Okay. And the whole idea of this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, to understand their psychological framework, which is how they understand themselves and events and basically their worldview. And then we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft.

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay, now this week's conversation is with Rich Froning Jr., dubbed as the fittest man in history after winning four back-to-back individual CrossFit Games championships back in 2011 to 2014.

He's also won the Worldwide Open for three consecutive years from 2012 to 2014. And when he retired from individual competition after the 2014 season, he captained his affiliate team, CrossFit Mayhem Freedom, to two back-to-back affiliate cup championships in 2015 and 2016. And so when I mentioned to a couple of my friends that Rich was coming on, they raised their eyebrows with this stoke and they nodded. And one of them said, that's going to be one for sure. And so Rich's point of view comes from being recognized as the best in the world in his craft. And so that is easy to follow and understand, but it's a gem

how he puts together the way that he organizes his life and how he thinks about it. And he understands winning flat out. And he also understands the cost associated with it. So in Rich's words, he says that to be the best in the world at anything, you're not balanced. You can't be balanced. And so with that thought ahead of time, you know, I think it's good to wrestle with that. Would you still pursue or do you still want to pursue being the best in the world? That is very different than being your best. There is a difference between those two. And I think it's a great question.

And it's why I love these conversations so much. They really make me think about who I am and what I value most. And I hope it does the same for you. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Rich Fronting Jr. Rich, how are you? Mike, thanks for having me. Yeah, this is great. You have an amazing body of work, so congratulations on what you've done. Thank you. Yeah, so I want to spend some time with you and I want to really understand your path. I want to understand how you see the world and I also want to understand the mental skills that you've used

to build basically your body and your ability to perform consistently on the world stage. So, you know, when we think of trying to understand who you are, just to get a basic framework, what are the things that you can help me understand? Like, what are the experiences and the places you've been? Maybe you go way back to early history or whatever. Like, how can I better understand? What can you share with me? Yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

I mean, I can go back all the way to the beginning where I was, I was born in Michigan. Uh, my family, uh, there's on my mom's side, I have 32 first cousins, 25 of us are boys. Um, so it's very, uh, a competitive atmosphere basically since the day I was born. And then, uh then my dad's side is a lot smaller, but just hardworking. Both sides of my family are super hardworking. My mom's family were farmers, Irish Catholic farmers. So he had to have help in the field. So there was nine. My mom has nine brothers and sisters. My dad had two siblings. And then we moved to Tennessee, I guess, when I was four and a half. And the rest of my family still lives in Michigan. But we we live in Tennessee, stayed in Tennessee. And then I grew up playing all kinds of sports. Sports were kind of my my life growing up.

I played baseball. Baseball turned into my mainstay. I played football for a little while until I dislocated my shoulder and had to have labrum surgery in high school. I ended up playing baseball a little bit in college. I got to college baseball. It wasn't really all I thought it was going to be. It turned more into a job than anything. Then from there, I came back home and in Cookville, they had this program. It was called the student firefighter program. So they paid my tuition and I worked as a full-time firefighter and they paid my tuition through college. And from there, one of my professors, I was getting my undergrad in exercise science and my professor was like, Hey, uh, you'd like to work out and now you're a firefighter

and the, uh, a lot of military police fire are using CrossFit. So you should try it out. And, uh, kind of the rest is history from there. Started competing and, uh, signed up. Didn't really have, you know, we just really just started doing CrossFit to work out. Didn't really know there was anything about competition. Well, then we saw some videos about the CrossFit Games. And from there, I just signed up, went to sectionals. You had to get top 15. I ended up winning my sectional, which I was not planning on doing. I just wanted to see what it was going to be like for the first year and then maybe come up with a plan for the next year.

And then won my sectional, went to regionals. You had to get top five in regionals so honestly didn't think I had a chance there end up winning my regional went to the CrossFit Games was in first going into the final event and fell off of the rope in the the final event and basically I lost the CrossFit Games by three points which is three positions over the whole weekend we probably did 10 or 12 events and so it it was a, it was a tough space for me. And, um, like I said, I had some good mentors and some people that kind of, kind of pushed me and faith had always been a driving force in my life, but never the front of my life and, um, really prioritize my, my relationship, I think with the Lord. And,

and from then on kind of did it for that purpose versus glorifying myself and won the CrossFit Games four times after that. And as an individual, then retired as an individual, and we've won twice on a team and got second on a team as well. So that's the short of 30 years of life there. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you came from, I don't know, some sort of environment where there was lots of testosterone. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

You know, and I'm wondering how that shaped your competitive approach. I could fill in a lot of gaps and stories, but like what was that like growing up with all those cousins? Yeah, you know, it was kind of tough because we moved here when I was four. And so I didn't get to spend – we went up to Michigan probably four or five times a year, sometimes more. So I got to spend a lot of time with my cousins. But there was always that – you were always comparing stats, scores, whatever you were doing. And anytime we were together, it was always a competition. My aunts and uncles have ponds in Michigan because you can actually swim in those in Tennessee. You don't want to swim in a pond because usually there's other creatures you don't want to mess with.

But in Michigan, you know, the ponds are for swimming. And I remember one of the first, you know, just things I remember competing as a child was we'd be, we were probably five or six and our aunts or uncles would be like, Hey, all right, you're going to race around the pond. And there was – it was maybe 300, 400 meters. And so I just – from an early age, everything was always a competition, not just between us. But I feel like sometimes our aunts and uncles and my dad and mom, it's like, oh, let's see who can do this the best, who can do this the fastest. I mean partly now having kids, I realize they were just trying to drain some energy. But as a kid, you feel like, you know, I'm carrying the family banner type thing. So,

you know, that led to a lot of the competitiveness that I think comes from deep within. Okay. And then how did you now, like, how do you see competitiveness? How do you define being a competitor? And there's basically two basic frameworks, right? And yeah. Yeah. So how do you, how do you define it? Oh man, to be honest, it's, it's tough for me to like, it's, it's hard for me to define because I don't really ever think about it. It's just who I, like, it's a part of who I am. Like it's not something that I do. It just – it happens. It's not something I think about.

And it's been hard for me to kind of separate those in things that I should compete at and things I shouldn't compete at. Like I shouldn't compete with my wife on some things when I – so it's been a hard thing over the last couple of years to realize, hey, that is part of who I am. But I've got to kind of channel that and filter that to make sure that I'm competing in the right areas and not competing at things that I shouldn't be competing at. Are you competing to be the best, better than the other? Or are you competing to be your best? Oh, man. That's a tough one too. So when so when I, when I was an individual, so now it's a little bit different. Um, now that I've, we now have three kids and

when I was an individual for the five years that I did it, I woke up every morning to be the fittest man on earth. I wanted to, I wanted to win at all costs, no matter what I sacrificed a lot. When I woke up every breath I took, um, every waking hour, my goal was to win the CrossFit games. And I sacrificed a lot. Um, would I change that? Probably not. You know, there's some things that I wish I could have done better, but what were some of the sacrifices? Well, I mean, you know, just relationship stuff. Um, you know, with my wife, there was times where I would, it'd be eight or nine o'clock at night and my just competitiveness and also just that, that will to compete and thinking that somebody else is doing something, um, that I'm not, I would go out to the garage at eight, nine o'clock at night and, you know, row a couple thousand meters just to, to get some extra work

in. And so, you know, I'm sure that, uh, sure that at the time, she probably wasn't real happy with it. I think she appreciates it now because we get to live a life that we can provide for our kids and she can spend as much time as she wants with them and do all that. But there was vacations, family vacations that I would either be preoccupied with training or would just skip altogether or family functions. Not really family functions I would most of the time attend, but like friends, cookouts and stuff like that. I was obsessive for at least four or five years. made the decision that to be a father and to, um, and to, and to be the father that I needed to be and wanted to be, I needed to step away from the individual side because, um, even when I wasn't competing, I was still thinking about competing and I knew I couldn't do that. So now my goal is

to be the best father that I can be. If, wow. Okay. So, all right. It sounds like your first effort was to be the best, better than everyone else. And there was a bit of an underlying anxious model. Like if there's somebody out there that might be working, so I'm feeling anxious right now, so I'm going to go do a little extra work. And then you talked about some obsessiveness, right? And so I'm wondering, okay, none of that sounds unfamiliar to me, but I'm wondering for you, if that was, it's almost like an addiction. It's almost like if we took, you know, if we replace fitness with alcohol, would you have needed to go to rehab? Oh, yeah. No, I still, you know, I still struggle with that. You know, there's times where I'm like, Oh, I gotta, I mean, I feel better. I honestly do feel better if I move every single day. It just, it's better for my mood. It's just part of who I am is, is

also, you know, being a competitor, but to move, that's something that I've learned is, is something that I have to do. However, working out three or four times a day is not something I need to do, but it's, it's, yeah, I mean, I definitely have a, an obsessive personality. Um, you know, there's might be a little bit of in, in my genetics, some, some of that is substance abuse, but I've, I've never once used drugs or anything like that. So I think my outlet and my, my obsession and, and and and that is is working out yeah okay and then okay so then what i want to get a picture of if you're working out three times a day what was the volume and intensity that you were looking at on a regular basis and i know there's you know peaking and uh ebbs and flows of it but on a regular basis when you're kind of the thick of training, what does the volume and intensity look like? I never set an alarm. Um, my biggest

thing when I was, when I was training was to sleep as much as I could. So I'd probably sleep anywhere from nine to 11 hours a night if I could, uh, blackout curtains, all that. So I'd get up, you know, nine, 10 o'clock ish, sometimes a little earlier. And then I'd go, I had a garage gym at the house that I would just train in and I would be in there literally from 10 o'clock in the morning until probably five or six at night. And then sometimes I'd come in. What were you doing out there? All kinds of stuff, just abusing my body basically. No, seriously.

Seriously. That was training? Yeah. I mean there would be some minor breaks in there in between workouts. I was doing a bunch of interval type stuff, CrossFit, pure CrossFit type Metcons, some gymnastic skill work. It wasn't like straight working out the entire time. There's probably 30 minutes

to an hour in between each of those, just kind of hanging out. But I was out in the garage just doing my thing. What was your relationship with food? I didn't eat enough, to be honest. I had supplement sponsors and stuff like that. So a lot of my calories were coming from a shake or whatever, because this is another thing that I've had to kind of rein in is if I get busy and start doing something, I will forget to eat. If I don't think about food, I don't get hungry and I just kind of just go throughout the day without even thinking about it. So – You're almost 200 pounds, right? Yeah.

I read some of your stats, 5'9", 180, 190 pounds, somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah. And so at night, I would just kind of, 190 pounds, somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah. And so at night I would just kind of any and everything that I could get a hold of. And if I was hungry, I would eat. And, you know, didn't really worry about, you know, quality or quantity. I was just eating anything and everything just to kind of make up for the calories that I'd burnt that day. Not optimized.

Not optimized. Somehow it worked for you. This is not a thing that I recommend to any of our members or anybody that I talk to now. But at the time it worked and it was who I was and it just – that's what it was. What was money like? Money was – I mean I was making really good money. Contracts, sponsors and stuff like that. Me and my wife bought our first house after the 2011 games.

I've been blessed enough that I've never really had any debt, but we don't really, we don't spend outside of our means. You know, we did build our, my wife's dream house, but it's on 70 acres and where I wanted to live and up by where I grew up. It's up on a mountain and my kids can go out and play and I don't have to worry about that now. But at the time it was just, we, you know, we bought a foreclosure home and paid cash for it and, you know, did some minor upgrades and then sold it and then, um, bought this land and now have a beautiful home and a beautiful barn and, um, something the kids can, can play with. So, yeah, you know, we don't really, we live in Cookville, Tennessee, so it's, it's cheap to live here. And, um, like I said, my wife's really good about,

we don't really live outside our means. I don't feel like so. Okay. So go back. So first games that you entered, was that 2011 or 2010? Okay. So take, take, take me back to 2002. Were you training and were you fit or was that like now scrawny and little? What was the transformation arc look? What did it look like for you? In 2002? Yeah. In high school?

Oh, man. In high school, I was – so my freshman year, I really got into working out my eighth grade year. What they would do is they would take – after school, you could take the bus over to the high school and you could go to football practice and lift weights and stuff like that. So I really got into fitness then. Um, I can remember working out in the living room, you know, with my dad had some like old Sears crappy dumbbell, uh, stuff. And, um, I really got into working out.

I think honestly, one of the reasons I got into working out was I was in middle school a little bit. I wasn't fat, but I was a little chubbier compared to like some of my cousins that were – if you look at all of them, they look like they've come out of the movie 300. And so I think part of that had something to do with that growing up. And then I just really got into it in high school and baseball was my thing and I wanted to get better at baseball. So I started doing a bunch more strength training and stuff like that in high school and, and, um, baseball was my thing and I wanted to get better at baseball. So I started doing a bunch more strength training and stuff like that, um, in high school. So I was 120 pounds in my freshman year of high school. And I still, I think I have the sheet where my high school baseball coach was like, all right, um, I want you to gain, uh, 15 pounds. I want you to 135 pounds at the end of the year. Well, at the end of the year, I was 121 pounds. And then my sophomore year, I made it up to, I think, 130 to start the season.

And then I hit kind of a growth spurt in, I guess, it was my junior year. And my junior year of high school, right before when I was playing football, went to recover an onside kick and just tore my labrum, subluxed it. And the doctor was like, you need to have surgery. Let's go ahead and start that process. Well, I was like, nah, I'm not going to do that because my junior year is kind of, that's when you get offers to play college ball. So I was like, I'm going to hold off on that. And, uh, I'm going to try to just rehab it myself and see what I can do. So got back, uh, started playing first scrimmage of the season that year. I went to dive into first and dislocated my shoulder again. And so played the rest of the season. I probably

subluxed. I didn't really tell the coach subluxed it probably 10 or 11 times. And, uh, so before games, I wouldn't even throw to warm up. I would just kind of get a TheraBand and try to strengthen my rotator cuff enough to, um, to where it wouldn't literally fall out of place. And so I was, I was taken probably the higher than the recommended dosage of ibuprofen at the time. Um, and after that year, I was probably got up to about 165, 170 pounds and then had to have shoulder surgery. So my junior or my senior year, um, I was back down to like one 45, one 50. So, um, I really didn't start putting on weight until probably a year after my senior year where I got up to about one 80, right. When I first started doing CrossFit. Okay. Where's, where do you find your natural weight is? Do you have a sense of that

anymore? Um, I'd say probably 195, 190. Uh, you know, if I didn't work out and, um, you know, or if I didn't, you know, do as much strength training and stuff, it might drop down a little bit. But, um, to be honest, I think, you know, my dad's about one 60, one 65 ish. Um, both of my parents are, are, you know, your average weight, neither one of them are over eight whatsoever. Uh, pretty fit. No, neither one of them. My mom works out a little bit. My dad, um, he says his, his CrossFit is his daily job. So he's kind of a, he's into everything all the time. And my mom works her butt off too. So they're always moving. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science, developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep

work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. People and events can deeply shape us. And can you talk about a person that has had some of the most influence in your life? And it doesn't mean it's the only person, but whoever comes up right now that – or you can talk about an event for sure.

Yeah. No, I mean I've got a bunch of people and a bunch of events to be honest. Both my parents obviously shaped who I am for sure. They're the hardest workers in the room anytime, anywhere you go. Always made sure that we were doing, you know, if we weren't finding ourselves something to do, we were inside, they were going to find us something to do. So, you know, we had some chores and at the time I hated it growing up, but really appreciate it now. There's the work ethic that they instilled in me. I had a baseball coach in high school that kind of was my, became my second father figure type outside my dad,

was the first guy to kind of be like that. He was, or is, Coach Chaffin. He came my junior year. So I had three high school baseball coaches in four years, but he was the last one. He was awesome. Still a good friend of mine. Still just the same thing, the hard work and the mental toughness and

all that stuff. And then as far as events go, my grandmother, who I was super close to, passed away from a heart attack, kind of unexpected. They lived in Michigan and then moved to Tennessee. And while they were working on her house, she had a heart attack and passed away, just completely unexpected. So she was very influential in my faith. And also my mom's mom is super influential in my faith. She's still around. And then my cousin, Donnie, who was basically my best friend, we were 12 days apart. He passed away in 07. So that one was a little bit tough as well because he got in

a car accident the night before New Year's Eve. So that one was really hard. Is that, when you look back in your life, and I don't know how to really ask that question in light of what you just shared, was that the hardest thing that you've been through or have there been other things that have been really challenging yeah those two for sure were the hardest things that i've i've ever been through is you know losing my grandma and then also losing my cousin they were uh like i said he was my best friend and so um it made you just realize you know when you're that young and me being a firefighter, you know, I knew I wasn't invincible. Um, but to see that happen, man, it just, uh, woke me up for sure. How did it change you? Oh man, it just made you appreciate, uh, family a lot more. Um, and just with relationships, you know, you kind of, and you know, I kind of, it sucks now to think back that I had a

girlfriend at the time that was, it wasn't a healthy relationship and she was super jealous of him. So I didn't really get to talk to him as much the last year that we were around or that he was around. And so I really kind of kicked myself for that and realized that not to let stuff like that get in the way because you never know what's going to happen. And how do you rectify that now? Do you have things that you do to make sure that you don't have that same pattern? Yeah, I think it's just been kind of over the years of making sure that doesn't happen it's just become a more natural thing to do. I don't have to think about it anymore but for the first couple years it was like

alright, when somebody that I'm close to respond or says something and I, you know, either brush it off or just, oh, I'll get back to it. I'm like, no, let's get to it now. So I've been a little bit better about that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's an insight that I think it holds up for me is that it's pain that creates change for people.

Uncomfortable is how we grow, but pain is the reason we change. And you sound like you would say, oh, well, you did. You said, yeah. I mean, so, yeah. Okay. And then in that frame, like when we're talking about kind of the heavy stuff, you sound like I'm just getting a sense that you have lots of passion in your life. Like you're on, on, on, on, you're going, you're going, going. And maybe that's not the case, but when we're talking about emotions, it's hard for men to talk about this, but when was the last time you just let go and cried? I honestly, I can't remember. And my wife, my wife gets mad at me about this sometimes. I just don't like, I'll get kind of that choked up feeling in your throat, but I don't cry that

much. I couldn't tell you the last time I cried, I actually got in trouble at our wedding because I didn't cry. Um, I get more teared up, um, and get that feeling about like my kids and stuff like that now. Um, but then like, you know, Hillary just, I don't understand happy crying personally. I just, she's like, you know, you get so happy that you cry and I just, I just can't get behind, can't wrap my brain around that. It just never happened. Um, and so, uh, but yeah, no, I don't think I really pin up emotion to be honest. I'll talk about stuff and I don't mind talking about stuff to the right people. You know, I'm not going to open up and share to like somebody that I'm not super close with, but it doesn't, uh, I don't get, I don't feel like I'm just balled up emotional at the time, but I am constantly moving and there's constantly stuff, you know, pushing and pulling

in different directions. Cause I got, got a lot going on now. Yeah, you do. Okay. So you're one of the best for a long time in your industry. How do you get in your own way? I get how you developed it, but what do you do to like, I don't know where you screw yourself up in some kind of way uh daily uh you know it's just um it's it's a constant it's a constant battle you got to kind of

um in in crossfit i mean the the beauty about what we do is there's you're always working on something um and then when you work on something that you're not great at, other things start to kind of fall apart as well. So it's – or if you're working on a strength or on a weakness, some of your strengths start to kind of fall off. So you've got to kind of – you've got to balance everything. And so I think it's almost a good metaphor for life. But to be the best in the world at anything, you're not balanced. You can't be balanced. And so that's something that I've kind of had to work on is being a little bit more balanced, helping out.

Because like I said, we run a gym here. And luckily I have Yvette, a lady that runs the gym, my cousin who is the head coach here. And I've got a great team that kind of makes sure that I don't screw up things too bad. I'm more of the ceremonial leader here at the gym. Um, and cause I'm still competing and still, you know, we have a team that, uh, that we're trying to win with. And so it's, it's hard. It's tough to, to make sure that I'm doing all the things that I need to do. And it's a, it's a constant battle to, uh, just run, run checks and make sure that I'm doing all the things that I need to do. And it's a, it's a constant battle to, uh, just run, run checks and make sure that I'm not screwing up in certain areas. Yeah. Okay. And then, so there was a dip from 2016 to 17 where, you know, you're, you're one or two in the world for a long time. And then there was that, a dip that you recently had,

what happened there? What was, what was the, maybe it was the birth of your child maybe it was the building of the gym maybe it was you just didn't want to do it anymore yeah uh i mean i think it's i'm not really concentrating on being the fittest on the earth you know like that's not my like i said for years i woke up and that was my goal is to to win the crossfit games every year and so um you know and being on a team now is a little bit different than being an individual you know there's yes i want to be well-rounded but um if i can get better in in certain areas then i can do that so um yeah and i think it's just it's just i'm in a different part of my life than some of these guys that are that are competing as individuals now so that hunger that you had back in 2010 and 11, it's just changed.

It's spread out a little bit. Yeah, exactly. It's not all focused on one thing. Now it's kind of like that passion is a lot broader and a lot, you know, it's not, like I said, it's not so laser focused on one thing. What were you searching for with that laser focus? Yeah, I don't know. So, and this was something in 2010 that I, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to be the best in the world because I wanted to make my family proud.

I wanted to make people in Cookville proud of who I was and what I'd done and all that stuff. And, um, when I got, and I, I'd let CrossFit become my identity and it, and it become who I'd thought, uh, who I was. And so, um, when I'd gotten so close to, you know, and everybody's like, you got second, you know, there's nothing to hang, you know, hang your head about, but it, it ate at me. Like I hated, I hated getting second. Like it's, it was not, I was not in a good space for a couple months. And, um, luckily, like I said, I hated, I didn't want to work out anymore. I was kind of like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't like CrossFit. I don't, I don't enjoy this. And so, um, like I said, luckily I had a

good group of, of, I started actually working started actually working at Tennessee Tech as a strength coach. And like I said, my faith has always been part of my life but has never been the center of my life. And in 2010, I just had some guys that kind of started questioning why I was doing what I was doing and kind of made me realize that I'd been blessed with the gifts that I'd been given, I think, through God. And my way to glorify him was to show people and tell people all I could about him from that. And that kind of was the shift that I needed and the swing to get outside of myself and not make it about me. Okay, that's part of the dark side, I think, of elite performance is that narrow focus, loss of identity, consumption with outcome. And the outcome defines us. And so you glossed it over.

I'm listening to you going, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So you hit all the marks. I would venture to say that until you taste, if you have the laser focus and that deep passion and then you taste success, then you taste the agony of the other side of it, meaning loss. That success and loss are both, you know, as one of the great poems in sport or in life is about treating those two imposters the same. Yep. So what have you come to learn? Like, I know that what you just said was the intellectual version, but there's a darkness in that. And then, okay. Paint that darkness just a little bit so that I can feel what you, what you did to get through

that. And I, I, I heard what you said, which is I had some peer groups, you know, some friends, they challenged me and, but there's deeper work that took place. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, honestly, so what I did from there is I just kind of, you know, as kind of cliche as it sounds, I started reading the Bible and started in Matthew and just started reading about Jesus and, and why I believed what I believed and just got a little bit more, um, firm in that and, and kind of would fall back on that on days where I didn't want to do what I, you know, was felt like I was supposed to be doing.

And like I said, I just had, I had good people around me, good examples of some of the stuff that they'd been saying. But also, I mean, it was, there was, there were days where I did not want to do, I didn't want to work out. And, um, I just kind of tried to remember why I started doing it in the first place. And I, I just enjoyed working out. And so, um, it just, like I said, and then it just, I guess, naturally just kind of the competitive side of it came back and I just, I wanted to, wanted to win. And, and, uh, in 2011, it just, everything kind of fell into place from there. So going through that, being the best, um, finding a dip, maintaining it, dipping off a little bit, but spreading out your, your interests, right. And there's no critique

by me. This is just like the pattern. Right. And now you're in more of a – you're competing and then you've hired a head coach. If you could install a belief set or a belief pattern or let's just call it a belief. If you could install a belief into your head coach that he could install into the athletes or if you could just spread it out and give it right to your athletes, what would that belief be? What would you want to install? Just to correct, we don't really have like a head coach for our team. I was talking about Darren's the head coach at the gym for our members. Yeah. But I mean, I think honestly, our team, so we have, we used to, it used to be three guys, three girls on the team. Now it's two guys and two girls. They switched that this year.

And so what we did was we now have two teams. And so, you know, we just, to be honest, one, they're all great individuals. But they're also, you know, they know it's bigger than themselves. And so everybody on the team works really well together. We have fun. We just kind of show up. Everybody works hard. But you have to enjoy what you're doing.

If you're not enjoying what you're doing, there's going to be days that you're not going to enjoy what you do. But if it's so just, you know, you're getting run down every day that it kind of loses that fun. It's just, it just turns into a, you know, a job, I guess. And so we try to try to make every day interesting, try to make every day different. You know, there's some days that we're going to have to do things that we don't really enjoy and we get that. And it just, it works. We've done, like I said,

we won twice on a team in 2015, 2016. And then last year, 2017, we got second. So that's been our motivating factor definitely for years, getting second. Nobody on this team likes to get second for sure. Okay. So it's easy, I think, to say just enjoy it. And you can't tell someone to have fun. You can say it, but that doesn't mean they're going to have – so what do you do like underneath the surface to be able to create an environment or to help people create thinking patterns to enjoy themselves?

Is it as simple as you just have a lot of fun and that becomes infectious? I've honestly to be honest so I you know I was um I was captain of baseball team um always been in kind of a leadership role in anything that I've done and I've never been much of a rah-rah you know get them fired up type guy that's always been kind of lead by example and I think you know that that comes from both my parents it was never like you know they weren't going to fire us up to do anything but they were going to show us hey we're going to get out here and work with you we're going to do it and and I think yeah I mean were going to show us, hey, we're going to get out here and work with you. We're going to do it. And I think, yeah, I mean luckily we have a group of people that like to have fun and we kind of keep it lighthearted and everybody makes fun of everybody and everybody can kind of take a joke for the most part most days. And so – but everybody knows when we get down to work, we're getting to work.

And it's been – it's worked out really well for the past couple of years. So, uh, you know, I'm, like I said, I'm more of a lead by example type guy instead of, uh, you know, fill them full of words and, and, uh, fire them up, you know, in the right moment. Um, if I feel like I have something worth saying, I'll say it. But, uh, for the most part, I'm more of a quiet lead by example guy. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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If you had the chance to sit across and whoever you put on a pedestal to be like, that person is rad. You know, the Leonardo da Vinci's of modern times. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know if you have someone that comes to mind, but do you, do you have someone that comes to mind, but do you, do you have someone that comes to mind? Um, so if you would ask me this as a kid, my, and actually right behind me, we, in my office, we have a fat head of Barry Sanders. Um, you being a football guy, I'm sure you remember Barry Sanders. Um, but you know, as a kid, I, he was my like childhood hero that he, you know, was an amazing athlete, but as soon as he scored, handed the ball to the ref, the most humble, humble

guy you've met. Okay. All right, cool. All right. Let's, let's, let's use that iconic image of Barry. Um, what would you ask him? You had one question, true master of craft. What would you ask him? what would you want to know

well if you would have asked me probably four years ago i would have asked him why did you retire you know why at the top of your game why did you retire however i now completely understand why he stepped away when he did you know i i get that question all the time where why did you walk away from individual competition having won four times in a row? Now I completely understand. As a kid, it absolutely crushed me knowing that at the top of his career, he just kind of was like, all right, I've had enough. Granted, there were some underlying factors. The Lions, as much as I am a Lions fan it was one of the worst franchise in all sports um it's just uh it was it was hard to watch so as far as now i i guess it's just how how do you

deal with everybody wanting to know why you walked away when you did because i still get that question all the time and it's it's tough for me to answer i I mean, my obvious answer, and I 100% stand behind, was I wanted to be a dad and wanted Lakeland to take number one over competing. Because the word on the street is that you got scared. Yeah, of course. That's the word on the street. Yeah. That doesn't sound right, does it? No, it does not sound right.

And I still, you know, I'll save that for another day. That's good. Your response was funny. It's like, yeah, that's the word on the street, dude. Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah. So, no, seriously? I mean, I just made that up.

I was just. Oh, yeah. I mean, obviously, because Fraser, the guy was just, Oh yeah. I mean, obviously cause, uh, uh, Fraser, the guy that's won the last two years. Um, everybody was like, well, you just quit cause you thought Fraser was going to beat you. But then the next year he actually got second to Ben Smith. Um, and so it wasn't, it, it's just people, people got to talk about something always. So my friend of mine, Matt actually just moved to Cookville. So he lives here now. Okay. So you actually went though from wanting to do right by your family, like you work

so fricking hard to do right by your family, to make them proud, but there was something else that was driving you as well. And are you clear on what that kind of maniacal, ridiculous focus really came from? Oh, man. The reason I'm asking this is because what you've done is rare. That phrase that there's a Nestle poster in the Seattle Seahawks locker room, or not locker room, but up in one of the coaches' rooms that says, everybody wants to be great until they figure out what greatness is required right you know or something close to that so what you've done is rare and right that being so

what was the driver it had to be i don't know i don't know what it had to be but honestly i think you know and i tell people this i think it was honestly the perfect storm of me being born into the family I was born into, of the hyper-competitive, just full of testosterone. I say testosterone, but the girls in our family, they were all crazy athletes. Rachel, who is three or four months older than me, would whoop up on me and Donnie, who were the one that was 12 days older than me. She would beat us in sports until middle school. And so it was just, I think, partly that, partly having the parents that worked as hard as they could. My dad worked 50 hours a week, but then would come home

and was out in the barn, you know, working on whatever, uh, coming up with any project that he could. My mom worked as a waitress for years to just make a little bit extra money for the family. Um, and they came home and was, you know, cleaning the house. Our house was always spotless. She's OCD about everything. And so just watching them and being a part of that but then also having an incredible support system going through sports growing up having you know a great mentor and head coach coach Chaffin and then like I said just working as a firefighter that was that was something that that I've always uh cherished and enjoyed and then just having good people around me people to push me in in areas you know that's the beauty of CrossFit

is you can be good at something but you're going to get beat in something else so there's always that motivating factor of well they beat me in this I've got to get better at that and I hate to lose I hate to lose more than I like to win. And I think that just – like I said, I think it's just the perfect storm of everything. Yeah, it's cool. I hear that a lot. Hate to lose versus love to win. Yeah. A lot of people talk about hating to lose, which –

Hate it. It's an interesting driver, right? Yeah. It's the avoidance of hate feeling like – I feel like shame. Yeah, right. It's the avoidance of – It could be anything.

Anything. And I feel ashamed that I lost. I hear that a lot.'s a shame. Yeah, right. It's the only thing, anything. And I feel ashamed that I lost. I hear that a lot. It doesn't sound healthy, right? No, it's not healthy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

CrossFit has this, you know, and the X Games has this, not X Games, but the CrossFit Games has this incredible image that people are pushing right to their limits, right to the breaking points. And sometimes they actually do bonk. Can you recall a specific time when you didn't have what it took? Yeah. Um, you know, so if you actually go back to that 2010 video, so in 2010, you know, we went through all these events, uh, throughout the weekend. Friday night, we started. We did events all day Saturday. We did an event or two on Sunday morning. Well, at midday on Sunday, they take the top, I want to say, let's just say 18 for ease of numbers.

They take the top 18 men, the top 18 women. They took our phones, took basically everything away from us and told us they're going to put us in this room, maybe, I don't know, thousand square feet tops, if that. And, uh, we don't know what the workout's going to be. We don't have our phones, there's no TV and they're going to take six of us out at a time. Um, they're going to take six women out first, then they're going to take six men out, six women, six men, six women, six men. And we don't know what the workouts are. We don't know how long it's going to take. Um, and you're going to sit in this room and wait until it's your turn. So basically you're just, and I, at that time I was new to CrossFit, um, didn't really know any

of the guys or girls that I was competing with., it wouldn't be a problem because you know everybody and you can kind of, um, I mean, I've learned a lot about, I'm not the most outgoing person, but I've kind of learned that I, I can, I can make myself do that if I have to. And so, uh, you're literally just sitting in this room for hours and six people would leave. They wouldn't come back. Six people would leave. They wouldn't come back. And so the final event where we get out, we start walking out and everybody kind of takes their shirt off. You know how we do in CrossFit. And Dave, the all right, workout is 30 hand release pushups, climb up over this wall, 21 overhead squats, climb back over this wall, three, two, one, go. And everybody's blown. Like, we don't know what to do. So we just start. And so you kind of think, all right, well, maybe this is the final workout. So I go as hard as I can. And, uh, I finished the workout only person to finish that first workout. However, as soon as you, and they had, I think seven minutes to do it. As soon as seven minutes hit, you had to go around the wall and he said, all right,

next workout is, I think it was 21, um, power snatch at 95 pounds and 30 toes to bar three, two, one go. And you're just kind of like, what, what happened? And so we start that one. And it's, if you watch the video, it's on YouTube. It's just a, it's a shit show. It's mass chaos. And so finish that. And you're just in a complete daze. It's, you. It's just a, it's a shit show. It's mass chaos. And so finish that. And you're just in a complete daze. It's, you know, probably 90 degrees there. I think they had like somebody that had like a temperature gun on the floor and it was like 120 degrees on the mat. And so final workout, he's like, all right, you're doing five burpees over this. It's like a six foot wall or a five foot wall. And then you're going to do three rope climbs to 20 feet. And so whatever, didn't think anything about

it. Get the burpees done, start climbing the rope. And growing up, we had a rope in the barn and, you know, PE, we'd climb rope. Well, my dad was always like, don't use your feet. That's for pussies. And so I just tried to use my arms. Well, if you do three workouts before that, that your arms are completely fried, I could not make it. Isn't it crazy? This old thought, this really old thought just snaps into place. Snaps into your head. You're like, God, I don't need my legs. Well, all these guys are using their legs.

And I'm like, okay, I'm screwed. So you see me try to make it up the rope two or three times. Can't get it. There's people in the stands trying to explain to me how to use my feet. Like some guy took his shoelace out of his shoe and is trying to show me how to wrap the rope around my feet. And I'm like, bro, I don't know what you're doing. Like you're just completely out of it at this point. Well, I finally get enough. I had enough rest that I just went for it. So I climb all the way up to the top, hit the beam, and as soon as I hit the beam, I basically let go. Like I just slide down the rope and fall 20 feet.

Hit my feet, fall to my butt, almost drilled my head on a piece of concrete right next to the – there's a chalk bucket that I hit. Like I said, the video is pretty funny. But anyway, I end up making it up the rope three times. But you had to do three rounds. And so the guy, Graham Holmberg, who – great athlete. He beat me. And so we finished that workout. As soon as we finished that workout, they pull us into the basement of the stub hub and make us take a drug test.

And so you don't know what the score was. I don't know where I'd finished in each of the workouts. I'm like, maybe I, maybe I won, you know, who knows? Well, the way I found out was when they, uh, we, we came out from the basement. Um, they, I looked on the big check that they had that they gave the winner, the $25,000. And it said Graham Holmberg. And I was just like, I don't know. I just remember that feeling of just, I was not, I was just not a good feeling. And so, uh, I don't even remember what the question was, but the point is now I'm in this dark place. Thanks for that. When, when did you just get close to that feeling again? Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, I'm just like in that, that that moment i'm like man i hated that hated that feeling where is it in your body like right now as you're talking all over it's literally just

all over like fingertips are kind of like you know twinging what do you hate so much about it i don't know you know i mean i i won four times after that and I made a lot of money doing it. And I still think back to that moment and I'm just pissed. I don't know where that comes from. It just comes from deep within. That's who I am I guess. So you haven't had – back to the original question. Like you haven't had that moment where you broke or your mind broke before your body broke like you haven't had that experience it whether it's in your garage or i've actually had

my mind i feel like you know i can remember points in like 2013 where um i you know i grew up swimming but not really swimming not knowing how to swim and one of the first events was in the pool and you know, we'd done open water swims, which you can get through an open water swim and you can kind of hide in between people and whatever. But this pool swim, it crushed me. And I looked like a complete idiot and got like 27th. And then the next event, um, I got like seventh, but the guy that was ahead of me, who was, uh, Jason Kalipa, who'd been a competitor for a long time had gotten first and first. And so I'm just in a crappy mood, um, sitting in the stands and my wife comes down there and you just got to know my wife.

She's, uh, she's not going to hide anything or she's not going to, you know, pat you on the butt and tell you a good job if you're not doing a good job. And so we sit down and she's like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, I don't know. I just, this sucks. Like, I don't want to be here. This is just terrible, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, all right, go get your stuff. And I'm like, what? And she goes, go get your stuff. We're leaving. I was like, like, what do you mean? She's like, go tell Dave, if you're not having fun, you're not going to do this. And I was like, what are you talking about? She goes, I can tell when you're not having fun. Cause you don't, you don't do the best that you can. And I'm just like, whoa, what are you like? And so from then on, I just kind of was like,

all right, I got to get my, my shit And from there, I ended up winning that year again. So it's good to have a good support system. My wife is very straightforward, that's for sure. That's awesome. Yeah. Support and challenge, getting those two ingredients right in our most important relationships is big time. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, God, so good.

Thank you, like, seriously, for going back and reliving the agony of the worst moment. It's not going to work out again. Yeah, there you go. Good. All right, good. So what do you do with that inner critic, that little voice inside you that says, you don't have what it takes, you can't do this shit? That, you know, like, maybe you don't have it. Maybe you've just got a great relationship just got a great relationship you know inside your own mind but you know a lot of people talk about having like sometimes like a standing civil war inside them where it's like it can be brutal it happens you know i um it's i don't think anybody's immune to it i think even if they say they're immune to it they're they're lying i mean i think you've got to, what I've realized is,

especially in competition is, is take it one piece at a time. You know, on a team, it's a lot different. Um, you're, you kind of have that external motivator that you're trying to push for other people. Like, I don't want to let my teammates down, so I'm going to give it all I've got. Um, but as an individual, man, it was a dark place. A lot of times, like there were some times where you're just like, man, this sucks. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. Um, how do you, how do you get through that? Because a lot of people, as soon as they feel that this is what makes average, they feel that and then they give into it and they, and they, whatever, they leave their gym whether it's the office or or the little gym you know so how did you deal with it i think it was just you know doing taking it one step at

a time i think when you start looking at the the big picture you know like if you start to step back and look at man i've got you know i would finish the crossfit games and i always equated it to fit like christmas you Christmas. You had a great Christmas, but what kind of as a kid, like great Christmas, what can I get next year? Like the day after when Christmas was over, you had all that buildup and then now you're kind of like, man. And so if you step back and look at the, like, man, this is going to take another year of blood, sweat, tears, just crushing myself. Man, I don't want to do this anymore.

And then taking it, all right, let's get through today. And breaking it down into smaller, you know, my, one of my, the sayings at my high school baseball coach was, you can't eat an elephant in one bite. That was his big thing is you can't eat an elephant in one bite. And so it was making it small, manageable tasks and then just keep pushing. And that really, really helped over the years for sure. You know, the first year or two, I was all fired up every year. But then come three and four years, kind of like, all right, you know, let's do this again. And it just kind of it.

I don't want to say winning, um, doesn't motivate you for sure. But when, you know, when you've won three or four times or three times, I was kind of like on that fourth year, I was like, all right, this is cool, but you know, maybe there's something else. And so it was just kind of taking small bites and just keep moving forward is what helped me to do it for sure. Yeah. I love it. Do you write down your goals or do you hold them? No, no. I mean, you know, honestly I, I'm in, it's hard because everybody's like, you know, you, you set goals and stuff and I'm like, no, not really. You know,

like my end goal is to win the CrossFit games every year and that's the way it's been. And, um, it still is on a team is the same thing. And so I, I'm not a, like a, I don't have little goals that I've tried to do that a couple of times and I just, that's not what same thing. And so I, I'm not a, like a, I don't have little goals that I've tried to do that a couple of times. And I just, that's not what motivates me. Like I said, the big goal of, of winning the CrossFit games, that's been my, my main goal. When something doesn't go right, like it doesn't work out. Do you, do you explain that, that it's your fault or it's external circumstances? Like, let's say that usually my

fault. Okay. I've usually done something stupid or, you know, I've, I had a couple events at the games where, um, I just either redlined or, you know, pushed a little too hard. And, and, you know, if I do something stupid, I'm like, man, that was, that's on me. And so I tried to, okay. Do you say, do you say to yourself that, that, that is, that always happens or that's on me and so i try to okay do you say do you say to yourself that that that is that always happens or that's a rare moment in where i i screw up yeah i i screw up every day just ask my wife uh but yeah no i mean there's you know there's things every day and not just in crossfit in in life you know there's times where i'm like man i should not have reacted like that to my daughter you you know, doing whatever, you know, and so it's, it's a constant battle, you know, you've got to kind of,

you're constantly reevaluating and, and, and, um, you know, I try to hold myself accountable. You know, if I'm going to hold other people accountable, I have to hold myself accountable first. Accountable to what? Uh, just anything, you know, whatever it is that I'm doing in CrossFit and training. Obviously, if I'm training, it's almost the lead by example type thing. You know, I'm going to work my butt off and I want to be the fittest member on our team. And I'm hoping that everybody else wants to be the fittest member on our team. So that's going to make our team even better. At home, I want to be the best dad possible. And so there's this,

I'm always trying to evaluate my performance in whatever I'm doing, whether it's like I said, competing or in being a dad or being a husband, I'm like, man, I should have helped out and done a few more dishes. You know, it's just always things that I feel like I could have done better. And I think that's what, what makes us grow and makes us always strive to be better. Are you more of a tactician or like brute force? I know there's a balance between the two, but where do you err? I'm not very calculated if that helps you any. Like I don't have a training plan going into any day.

I'm going to lift heavy. Yeah, I just kind of left heavy. Yep. No, yeah. I just kind of base everything off field, but, um, you know, I, I've been blessed and I think that's something that helped me, um, in CrossFit was I was a little bit more athletic than a couple of the other top guys at the time that were, may have been a little bit, um, had a little bit more work capacity, but I could kind of pick up on things a little faster and figure out how to do stuff more efficient and I think that just was with my background in genetics you know my like I said my dad was a pretty good athlete and uh you know he's told me that he was

a good athlete until he started smoking weed and that was our drug talk actually when I was a kid he's like you know what he's like you like playing sports and you're really good at it and I think you got a shot to go to the next level. And he's like, I did too and I started smoking weed and it made me lazy as shit. And he's like, so I don't recommend it. He's like, I can't tell you what you can and can't do because you're going to do it anyway, but I don't recommend it. And that was my drug talk with my dad and I've never once even thought about it. So that's kind of the way, way, my way I was raised right there. It was just like, Hey, here's my experiences. And dad would

always say, do as I say, not as I do type thing. And, um, you know, so that's just kind of how I've lived my life. Okay. And then how important is the mental aspect of your craft? Uh, I think it's huge. Um, I think there's a lot of people that, uh, were physically fitter than I was and physically more capable than I was. But I think, like I said, that perfect storm of, of having people that helped shape me, um, in my mental toughness, in my just willingness to outwork people or work hard uh helped help with that so i mentality i think is is 50 of it that's a big number do you do you do anything on the mental side like uh imagery or breathing training or meditation or you know confidence training or do you do any of that

i pray that's about it i don't yeah i yeah, I've tried to like, you know, people like visualization and I, and one of the girls on our team, she really believes in visualization. I do not. I personally just doesn't work for me. I can't sit still that long to visualize and think about what's happening. Um, and then, uh, to meditate. Yeah, it's not happening for me either. Um, you know, I, I think of prayer more as my relationship. I hate the, the, I hate religion, the term religion, you know, like I have, I feel like I have a relationship with God and I can, you know, my prayer is, is not like a, always just a concrete, I'm sitting down and praying, which I do that every once in a while, but it's more of a, uh, an open ended conversation with God throughout the day is kind of how I feel it. And, um,

it's, it's been really good for me. Okay. Brilliant. So how are you doing? This is great. Like, yeah. Okay. So a couple, just a couple of quick hits here. Like where does pressure come from? Uh, I think pressure comes from myself to be to be honest. I think I put unneeded pressure on myself sometimes, you know, still, I still fight that battle of, oh, so and so doing this, I need to be doing this. And when I'm like, why, you know, I'm gonna give my kid a bath instead. So I still fight those inner demons every once in a while. I just – I think it's, like I said, just the way I've been brought up that I just want to continue to get better in different areas and constantly am trying to work on those things. But I don't think anybody puts – nobody puts pressure on me more than myself. That's for sure.

And how would you finish this phrase? It all comes down to work. Okay. Are you more street savvy or more analytical? Um, I think I got a mixture of both to be honest. Um, you know, I, I do enjoy the nuances of exercise science. You know, – I mean my undergrad is in exercise science and I do like the science behind it. But then I also have done it for so long and I enjoy just coming up with stuff. And so yes, both to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of a good balance of both in those I think. Do you prefer to have a slow-paced environment or fast-paced environment for learning? Fast paced. And then do you make fast decisions or slow decisions? Quick decisions. If I ever, yeah. And I remember in college one time, you know, we had a professor that we had three exams over the whole semester. That was it. That was our grade. And the tests

were like 200, 250 answer tests. And it was exercise, phys or something. And literally I go with my gut instinct on everything. And so I would always be the first one to finish. The professor would always ask me, did you cheat? I'd say, nope. He goes, did you do well? And I said, I think so. And I got an A on all of his tests. And so I'm just, it's just, I go with my gut usually. There you go. Okay. Are you a rule follower or risk taker? A risk taker for sure. And then do you, are you intellectually competitive? Obviously you're physically competitive, but are you intellectually competitive as well?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I enjoy, and in the last couple of years I've, I've started reading a lot more, um, years ago I was like, nah, I'll never read. And, uh, I've started reading a lot more. Um, years ago I was like, nah, I'll never read. And, uh, I've really started to enjoy reading the last probably three or four years. And then are you more self critical or self positive? Uh, self critical, self critical and critical of others or positive of others? I most, I'd like to think that I'm positive of others. Um, and most people start out at a hundred percent with me until you show me otherwise. Sometimes my downfall is that I'm too trusting. If you were to err on one of these two sides,

would you be more anxious or more depressed? Anxious, for sure. Not depressed. Optimism or pessimism? Optimism. Yeah. So, so fundamental belief that the future is going to work out pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. Always just kind of trust in, in, in the plan.

Perfect. Okay, good. And then like, how do you, how do you deal with failure? Is it really about the fear of looking bad or is it the consequence or loss or what, what do you do with that shoot uh i more of use it as a motivator to be honest yeah i don't really look at i don't like to look at things and think man if i could have changed that um i try to look at them as they changed me for the better at that point you know like i've had so you know one of the best

people always ask questions like, if you can go back and change anything, would you change it? And, you know, obviously there are things that I would like to change, but I wouldn't change them, if that makes sense.

It's like I wouldn't, when I was just in that spot of thinking about 2010, I would love to change that, but I wouldn't change that because I don't think I would have won the next couple of years and be where I don't think I would have won the next couple

of years and be where I'm at today if I had won that time. I had something similar in my professional career that happened as well. I was included in this amazing small circle event that took place in year one. And then year two, I wasn't included. Really? And I was like, oh, you're like, Hey, look at that. You know, it was like, I didn't get asked back to the dance. Right. And I was like, oh, you're like, hey, look at that. You know, it's like I didn't get asked back to the dance. Right. Right. Yeah. I'll tell you what, it lit something on fire for me.

And yeah. Right. And I think you can relate to that. But at some point you can't keep playing with fire because it does burn. And so, you know, like to have a deeper, more eloquent, loving relationship that that happened. I'm grateful for it. I don't have to it i don't have to i don't have to be fed by the fire anymore i can be fed exactly there's a there's a different

passion that yeah yeah it but i'll tell you what transforms basically yeah it's good yeah it's good i wish everybody has that i wish everyone has that that prick of pain um or deep pain or mild anywhere on there to and even constant pain to be able to change and grow and adapt and get better at being a man or a woman. Yeah, a buddy of mine, Jim, he always says, in your greatest moment of triumph or your darkest hour, will you be enough? And it's trying to figure out who you are instead of what you do. And that's his big thing, and I like that.

Oh, flat out. So I've introduced, you know, you've heard of yolo and fomo and oh yeah i've introduced a new one called faux po fear of other people's opinions yeah yeah and fear of other people's yeah because that for so many people they're just so they don't know who they are so they're afraid of what other people think of them yep and i live by that for way too long right and i can you did too yeah i can you can spot it in other people too quickly. Oh, look at that. They can't be themselves because they're worried about what I'm thinking about them. Exactly.

It's awful. It's all crazy. It's, I mean, but it's hard, you know, it's, it's hard for people to get past that. And, and, and his, the gym is also, he's, his big thing is people, a lot of people live in emotion and, and make decisions based off of emotion and instead of who they are. And that's, I think that's part of our problem in society right now is that everybody makes emotional decisions 99% of the time. What do you see in your industry in the next five years, 10 years, you know, because we've gone from big box to small box and CrossFit really led that. And now we've got boutique boxes where we've got, you know, call it Orange

Theory or whatever the other tech bands are, you know, technology-based programs. And we've got Pilates studios all over the country. And I'm not saying any of these are bad. I'm just saying we've gone from big box to boutique box. What do you see in the next 5-10 years for your industry? I think the big thing and what you're saying about all those things is the community side of and that's what you're seeing is that people like i mean to work out with others and to enjoy what you do and what i what i get so caught up in especially in crossfit is people that aren't their their life doesn't depend on crossfit so they're not making their living doing CrossFit

but they let it become an added stress and make it so just their emotions are tied up in it and so stressed out about it it's like hey, CrossFit is supposed to be a stress relief not an added stress, working out period it's supposed to have some fun, it's supposed to be the best hour, hour and a half of your day. And people get so caught up in wanting to do, or, you know, Oh, I'm dreading doing this and blah, blah, blah. It's like, well then go find something that you

want to do. Make sure it's physically active because physical activity is a huge part of, of health and wellness, but don't do something you hate, like go find something you enjoy. And so it's, it's, it's tough to, and what I get so tired of is people wanting to, you know, CrossFitters are thrown into that category where you just want to judge everybody on what they're doing for physical activity. It's like, Hey, it's like I just said, as long as they're getting better physically, mentally, who cares what they're doing? I love it.

All right, cool. What do you hope the next generation, two more questions. What do you hope the next generation gets right? who cares what they're doing. I love it. All right, cool. What do you hope the next generation, two more questions. What do you hope the next generation gets right? And then I want to ask you how you think about the concept of mastery. How do you define it maybe even? The next generation of just people?

Yeah. Man, I think it's similar to what I just said is figuring out who they are first and then not making so many decisions on emotion and not getting so tied up in, you know, this is something that I'm, I work on too, is, is not being so tied up in social media and letting that define who you are and letting people's comments, um, get to you. It's just like, man, it's the, the great thing about technology is, you know, it's connected people and helped people to all over the world to connect and to learn and all that stuff. But I think it's also we're not, you know, it's not social media because people aren't social anymore.

You go to a restaurant, people are just on their phones talking to other people or they're not talking to each other face to face. And so that's, um, I hope we can kind of break free from that soon. Cool. And then how do you define or think about the concept of mastery? I think of mastery as something you're constantly aiming at. Not sure if you ever quite get there. If you're truly chasing mastery, you have to be open to, um, self, uh, you know, being self-critical, uh, but learning and kind of, you know, being open to what other people think as well. I think, uh, finding mastery is, is a lifelong goal. I'm not sure if you ever quite obtain mastery. I think it's something that you're constantly learning and constantly trying to get to,

if you're truly trying to master something. Rich, thank you again for your time. Awesome. Great insights, really clear thinking, shared everything from pain to the joy of celebration to the deep love of family and the maniacal effort that goes into being, you know, a relentless effort to be the best in your case and your best in return. So where can people find out more about you, what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, I've um my instagram handle and twitter are just at rich broning um and then we have crossfitmayhem.com is our our gym and then uh cross i think it's the crossfit mayhem on instagram and you can kind of see what we do every day and uh we have a youtube channel that's crossfit mayhem and we have a bunch of just useless nonsense on there a lot you know a lot of day in the life type stuff so if you want to check out

more what we do check those out cool and froning And froning is F-R-O-N-I-N-G as well. Sorry. Oh yeah. We have a podcast. One N, F-R-O-N-I-N-G, right? Correct. And then what was the last piece? You've got a pod as well. Yeah, we've got a podcast, Froning and Friends, and it's literally, we just talk about any and everything possible. You know, it's, we do talk a little CrossFit, but not a ton, actually. It's a lot of just life stuff. And we have fun. We have a good time. Yeah, there you go.

Kind of like your workout. I'm not sure what you're going to get. That's right. Yeah. Okay, good. So for everyone listening, thank you. Go check out Rich and what he's up to. Follow what he's doing on all the platforms.

And then thank you. Thank you for being part of this community of Finding Mastery. And if you're new to the conversation, punch over to findingmastery.net and there's loads and scores of brilliant insights. And Rich, we're going to take

some of your insights as well and slice them into minutes on mastery. So it's like under three minutes pearls of wisdom as well. So there's, yeah, it's awesome. Thank you. Yeah, for sure sure and then you can also follow us folks on twitter which is at michael gervais facebook we've got a community

rich you might like to to pop your head in our community it's unbelievable we got yeah i'll check that out yeah it's finding mastery.net um forward slash tribe and it's unbelievable we've got thousands and thousands of people that are supporting each other on their path of mastery. It's awesome. And so anyways, thanks. Thanks a lot. Cool. Thank you. All right. All the best.

Bye. Thanks, William. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're Thank you. day, punch over to finding mastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals

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