Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Rich Roll on Growth, Greatness & Letting Go

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Today’s guest needs no introduction – but I’m thrilled to do it anyway. Rich Roll is a world-renowned ultra-endurance athlete, plant-based fitness advocate, bestselling author, host of the hugely popular Rich Roll Podcast, husband, father.... and the list goes on.He's also a good friend – this is Rich’s fourth time on the podcast. His episodes are often our most popular, and there’s a good reason for that. Rich’s humility and frank discussion of his sobriety and recovery – as well as his courage and commitment to exploring his limits – are an inspiration to me, and so many others.In today’s conversation, we dive deeper into what it means to be present in every moment, the rewards of service and giving back, the distinctions between greatness and mastery, and the everyday search for moments of awe.Then, you’ll want to stay tuned to the back half of our conversation, as we’re doing something a little different. We sourced your questions for Rich and I to wrestle with, and we had an absolute blast diving into those – they’re provocative, insightful, and surprising.I think you’ll find that this conversation with Rich is – as always – compelling, inspirational, and full of hard-earned wisdom._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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There's always room for improvement. And I think greatness or mastery is pursued in the process of self-knowledge and self-understanding in a fearless and courageous way. That's what we're here to do, man. We're here to grow. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Today's guest needs no introduction, but I am thrilled to do it anyway.

Rich Roll is a world-renowned ultra-endurance athlete, a plant-based fitness advocate, a best-selling author, host of the hugely popular Rich Roll podcast, husband, father, and he's also a good friend. This is Rich's fourth time on Finding Mastery. His episodes are often some of our most popular ones, and there is a good reason for that. His humility and frank discussion on his sobriety and recovery and his internal challenges and how he navigates them, as well as his courage and commitment to challenge himself to his edges, to his limits, to be his very best. The whole package here is a real inspiration to me. In today's conversation, we dive deeper into what it means to work to be present, to really be present, the rewards of service and giving back,

and the search for moments of awe every day. And then we're going to do something fun and a little bit different. We sourced your questions for Rich and I to wrestle with, and we had an absolute blast diving into those questions. That will come in the second half of the conversation, so be sure to stay tuned there. So with that, let's get into it once again with the incredible Rich Roll. I'm so stoked to be here with you. The piercing eyes, Dr. Gervais, penetrating the soul. It was all casual a minute ago.

And then as soon as you clapped and were on, like the way that you are able to just look at somebody, I know you're not doing it to get people back on their heels or anything like that. No, not at all. But there is definitely a thing of like, oh, the good doctor is in session. He's in session, yeah. Can you imagine like spending eight hours? So that's how I structure my days now with a client,

whether with an athlete or a performer, like eight hours in a room with me. And by the end, we're both exhausted. And the truth that we get to, the insights, the understandings, the best practices that fold from there, but there's nowhere to go. Yeah, nowhere to hide.

No detail goes unnoticed. It goes unnoticed. Right? Yeah. So good. Does anybody freak out? Relatively. That's a relative term.

Yeah. Boxed into a corner. There's just nowhere to go. But I think that we're so busy dancing and shifting and conforming and wanting to be part of something that we trade some of ourself to belong that when you get into a room and it really is about you being completely you all of your frailties and all of your ambitions and your scar tissue that it's like oh i, I'm here. This is me. And that is such a rich gift, you know. But before we jump into all of that, do you have anyone in your life that sees you that way?

Oh, my wife definitely sees me that way. There's no getting around it. I figured you were going to say that. And it's a gift. I wouldn't say it's a gift and a curse. It's a gift, but it's also a dynamic that presents its own challenges. Like I was going to say with what you just shared, that experience must be cathartic and freeing at the end of it. But also it's hard to be confronted with your truth or to be in a situation where your blind spots are revealed to you. And if you can inhabit curiosity around that, it's great. But also, who wants to deal with their character defects? You know what I mean?

Don't we just drink those away? Oh, no. Oh, yeah. You did that for way too long. As they say, Michael, it worked until it didn't work. Until it didn't work. But it worked for a minute. Yeah.

Until you kind of ran thin of those buffers. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So how long have you been sober? I got sober in June of 1998. Had a little mishap about 12 years ago, a one-day experiment. Yeah. They found me in an AA meeting a couple hours later.

Oh, did they? It was a relapse. It was like four years. Super lame relapse, but reset the clock. So when people say, when did you get sober? You don't lose all of that sober history of course but in in the vernacular of 12-step you know that you reset the clock yeah the clock has to get yeah so was the experiment I can have one no it was it was something that

was precipitated without any thought whatsoever. That's the scary part. That speaks to the cunning, baffling nature of this affliction. And I can look in the rear view and see everything that led to that moment, which was a lot. But in that moment, there wasn't a decision or very much of a thought process whatsoever. It was opportunity and reflexive, if anything else, which is frightening.

That was the scariest part. It's not that I drank these beers. a hundred days in a treatment center and thousands and thousands of a meetings and being somebody who would kind of, um, you know, walk through the halls of recovery with some sense of, of, of respect. Like I was somebody who had some time, you know, and could be counted on to say the right thing or help another person because of my experience that was an ego deflation to realize like it's not really about the amount of time you have it's about the day that you're in or the moment that you're in and it ended up being this incredible gift because I got right-sized and reminded in a profound way without too many negative repercussions just how cunning and baffling the disease of alcoholism is. And that reaffirmed my commitment to the program and ended up strengthening my recovery.

So in the end – Right-size is a cool term. It's like the boat got right-sized my recovery. So in the end. Right size is a cool term. It's like the boat got right sized a bit. It didn't capsize. It just had a nice little kind of. Yeah, it didn't capsize. I mean, it was embarrassing. It was humiliating. And yeah, you know, I got to call my friends and my, here's what happened. You know, it's just like, those are not calls you want to make yeah um but it ended up being uh really empowering ultimately and now when i share that story when i speak at meetings you know it's a powerful reminder to everybody else who's walking around with a little bit of time who thinks they got the whole thing handled that's cool yeah like when you've got that little bit of chip like i got this

we say in sport it's the three most dangerous words, I got this. And because it demonstrates like you've stopped learning. Right. I got this. And at one level, some people would hear that and be like, wait, that sounds like confidence. Yeah, I was going to say, isn't there a flip side to that, which is the wherewithal to say, I know that I can handle this?

So the way that I think about it is that confidence is state-specific. So it's based on your mapping of your internal resources against your perception of the challenge at hand. Okay, so what do I have in here? And what does that look like out here? And there's a lot of psychology in confidence because it's your perception of the external challenge and your perception of your internal skills. And it's state specific, meaning that it changes from moment to moment. Changes from situation to situation. So I think a better frame is like, I think I got this. I got to pour into it though. This looks like a real challenge. Okay. I got to lean into this one now. Oh, this is going to be exciting. I'm going to bring everything I have into it. Let's

go. As opposed to I've got this. And so those are the ones I'm like, maybe you want to follow them into battle, but, but there's something not quite true about it because nobody knows they have it. And so that's the part that there's also a feeling underneath of it that you're looking for as well. So not to be too technical on just those. No, that's an interesting nuance to the whole thing. I'd never thought of that before. Yeah. The idea that state specific, I think, is really interesting, that it changes.

And it's based on the way you interpret your skills and the challenge. And that's psychology. Yeah. Kind of one-on-one. This is your bag, dude. This is it. I know. This is where I spend my time.

Yeah, I know. Geeking out on the finer points of ego and confidence. How the inner world works. So it's been three years since you've been back at the Finding Mastery Lab. So I'm stoked to have you back. I've loved being on your show. And it's congratulations on what you've built and what you've done and the disruptive nature to go after two things that are three things, really the life of sobriety, plant-based approach with helping people really push into fitness and their edges, evidenced by how you're designing your life.

So congratulations on like a legit body of work. And I know there's so much more to go. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's been an unbelievable journey you know i just it's it's still like a pinch me thing that i get to do the same thing that you get to do in a different way i still love it i've been doing it for 11 years and it's evolved but it's still what is the thing for 11 years the podcast the podcast 11 years doing the podcast for 11 years. Yeah. That is, you were so early. Yeah. I mean, not like the first, there were still, you know, quite a few people who had been doing it for a while when I started, but early for sure. Yeah. And certainly well before the groundswell of mainstream attention to the medium, which has been a really cool and also bizarre thing

because I never would have thought that podcasting would reach a level of penetration that it has. And so that's been exciting too. Okay, quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

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that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash Finding Mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. The reason this podcast exists is because of you. And so I want to remind folks that are maybe new to this, you know, to the conversation here is that Rich reached out one day. We had an awesome experience in my office where I had the opportunity to be on your podcast early on.

And I loved it. I loved the long form. I get to massage my experience with like how I want to shape. And it wasn't chopped up for some media soundbite. And it was honest. And it wasn't transactional in any nature. And I thought this felt really good. And I thought I'd like to do what Rich did. And I'd like to create that experience for other people to feel what I felt. So I'm following your footsteps.

Thank you. And I owe you a lot because I've had so much fun and this has been a radical vehicle to have a real community. You know, they're interested in the inner life. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you. This preface is you. Every time we get together, it's the same.

It's a different version of that same speech. Yeah. And and my whole body wants to, you know, tell you it's fine. You know, it is true, though. And I recall very fondly and vividly that first conversation. It was equally as meaningful for me. And I do remember you reaching out and me giving you encouragement because I thought that you were naturally acclimated to this type of dynamic. And it's been great to see you latch onto it.

I talk to a lot of people who say they want to start podcasts. Some do, some don't. Very few approach it with the level of consistency and intentionality that you have. And so that's a tribute to you practicing what you preach in a big way. And I just love this community that you've built. Also, I'm trying to work on just saying thank you and not trying to push back or qualify. Like it's, you know, just say thank you.

Just take it, dude. Yeah. You know, I did something similar to that. And a mentor of mine goes, I was like saying, doing the explanation of to kind of minimize the thank you a little bit. You know, it's gracious. Everything you just said is warm felt.

And I was doing that. And he goes, I didn't realize you were that selfish. What? I'm like saying thank you back. He goes, no, take it. Like, like I'm giving you a gift and you're not really wanting to take it. That's really selfish. Like I, I get to give you a gift. So're not really wanting to take it. That's really selfish. Like I, I get

to give you a gift. So can you just take it? I thought, Oh shit, I got some work to do. Cause I didn't even understand that. That's a great frame. Isn't it interesting? I'm going to remember that. Yeah. Like it's like it. So I, I get to give you a gift and then I'm not looking for a gift back and just to see you go, Oh, it's like oh that's cool yeah so anyways um okay so three years since uh you've been here you've got a beard now i know your show is cultivating my uh modern elder look yeah so your show has exploded you um you have two books is that right we have voices i have well finding my memoir. It came out in 2012 that my wife and I co-authored two cookbooks. Oh, yeah.

And then I have two volumes of Voicing Change, which are self-published books. We have a third one coming soon. And those are like coffee table books that highlight some of my favorite guests over the years with beautiful photographs and excerpts from our conversations. I was in one of them. You are. Yeah. And so our photog, Alex Wood, our producer, and he took a photo of me on the field when I was spending time with the Seahawks. And he loves that picture. I love the picture. And so to see it in your book was like, yeah. So I'm just like the first experience that we had when I was like, how do you do it? And you're like, okay, you kind of get this mic and, you know, like it's pretty simple. And I am going to tap you on a coffee book table at some point.

Yeah. A coffee book. What's it called? Coffee table. Coffee table book. Coffee table book at some point. Like it's been an aspiration to have a vehicle in a substantial high art way to celebrate the extraordinaries that i've been fortunate to

learn from so you should do it yeah it's pretty cool it looks like it's a big lift we did it all in-house uh so yeah it was a team effort yeah because you're also in addition to the writing part you're uh transcribing interviews and then you're trying to find the best parts within that and then organizing it in a way that makes sense. And then you're reaching out to all the guests to make sure they're cool with it. And then you're making sure that you have permission to use all the photographs. It's, you know, it's an assembly. Yeah, that's right. That's a lot of work.

That's a type of situation that's very different from the process that I'm sure you engaged to write your book. That was a cave. That's a solo enterprise. I had help with Kevin Lake. He was the co-writer on it. Okay, so what else has been new? I don't know, man. I feel good. I feel like I'm really in the sweet spot and hitting a really good stride.

I still love what I do. As I mentioned, I have lots of cool projects on the horizon that I'm excited about. The important things in my life are in order. My relationship with my wife, my relationship with my kids is really great. I've got my bills covered, which was not the case, you know, not that long ago. And I feel really creatively fulfilled. And I feel like the work that I do is meaningful for other people. That's the best part, getting to share these experiences and then have them reflected back to you as not being trivial is a great thing. And in the same way that I'm working on just saying thank you, I've gotten a lot better at owning the space, not apologizing or trying to minimize and kind of transcending a history with imposter

syndrome. That idea that at any moment someone's going to come in and yank me out of the chair and say, I don't know who you think you are. But now I sit down and I'm like, I don't say I got this. I approach every conversation trying to make it the best that it can be. And I do a lot of preparation and I get butterflies because I have an aspiration for it. But it's also a surrender and an allowing and a presence that is required to, you know, have a chance at something like that. But I know what I'm doing. Yeah. And I'm okay saying that I know what I'm doing. Yeah. And I'm okay saying that I know what I'm doing.

That's cool. Which is some growth, I think, on my part. In many respects, the emblem that you're holding is you've brought together three different unique parts of your life that I mentioned earlier. Sobriety, plant-based, and pushing hard in a fitness wellness approach, like the ultra part of you. And like in many respects that there's no simple model for the human life, but that model

of like pulling together the things that matter most to you and then figuring out what is the way that I get to do these things and share these things and build a community around these unique three things is really powerful. And so when folks are like in a place, like, I don't know what to do next, I'm trapped in my eight to eight gig. Um, I don't like the way that my relationship's going. I don't like the way that my future looks financially or, or from a meaning impact standpoint, you're, you are an emblem for it by saying, look, find a couple things that are uniquely interesting to you, and then back into like, how can I do those more often?

Does that seem- Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. I think it is easy if you Google my name and it looks like everything just happened overnight, and this has been an ultra endurance event like no other and it's gone through many iterations and it continues to evolve as i continue to evolve and grow but i think to your point for the person who is lacking that connection with meaning or searching for what their purpose or their passion might be. I always counsel people to really go deep within

and reflect upon the things that bring them the most joy. And generally those things are very simple things. They're pursuits that you did freely when you were a kid that you let go of, or began as you grew older to think trivial or not you know suitable for an adult to spend time doing and i think the more of a childlike nature that you can inhabit to really connect with what moves you what stokes your curiosity what gets you excited naturally without any kind of external influence those are the threads to pull and I think in this culture

especially when you layer on top of that social media and hustle porn and the pressure that is on so many people particularly young people to have things figured out and to grind their way towards some, you know, externally impressed upon them notion of success that gets in the way. And I think people want to know where all of this is going to lead. And it doesn't work that way. It's not about quitting your job or making a bold statement as much as it is a very subtle nurturing of those impulses that bring a little bit more happiness into your life, honoring them, listening to them, nurturing them, cultivating them,

and being in a place of awe and wonder as to where they might lead that is uncoupled from what you do for a living or the identity that you carry around and the way that you define yourself. And the more capaciousness, the more space you can bring to that, I think is a good way of trying to expand the aperture of your life that over time will lead you in a new direction if you follow the breadcrumbs and continue to remain curious about where they might lead. I can see the lawyer training in you because the logic and the sound reasoning in that narrative was so good. Right. Okay. So then let's work backwards, breadcrumbs to creating space, to being more connected to the things that bring you joy.

Okay. So how do you create space when you feel jammed? So you know the shift that's happening right now. I wake up. This is not my life. This is the life of many. I wake up. It's like a 6.30, 6.15 a.m.

I get the kids out. I've got my first meetings at 7.30, 8.30 maybe, somewhere in that range, whether I have to drive or I'm taking a Zoom meeting. Businesses, multinationals, so time zones are tricky, waking up early and late. I grind through a bunch of meetings. I want to be part of this team. I like what the company's doing for the most part. This is what I hear.

Jam in some food. Try to do at least one walking meeting. But like that kind of falls apart because it's kind of loud and it's noisy and I'm breathing heavy and that doesn't quite work on a on a Zoom call or phone meeting. Get through maybe one report or one thing that I've finally got off my list. Answer some emails, more meetings, go home. And now I do my real work of getting like the stuff done that I need to get done for my job. And in between is like 15 minutes with the kids and family. Okay. So pretty typical multinational gig, right? And it's more like a seven to six, seven to seven, and then a little bit of time at home with the kids and then second shift. So how do you think about creating space? I can't say that I have an easy

answer to that question or some kind of revolutionary life hack to that. I appreciate the challenges that most people face. And I was one of those people as well. So I don't want to minimize in any way the constraints that the typical person faces just to make a living and get through the day. But I do think if you are really paying attention to how you spend your time and where you direct your attention, there's always room for improvement.

So one exercise that I did early on when I was trying to free up time and felt pressured and felt like I had no time, I just logged what I did every 15 minutes of every day for like a week. And then you go over it and you realize that there are inefficiencies. Maybe that drive to that meeting could have been a Zoom call, or maybe one or two of those conference calls could have been done in an email. Maybe I didn't need to scroll on my phone quite as much or check out with that Netflix show for an hour at night just to unwind because you feel like you need that. Maybe I could have woken

up a half an hour earlier. So I think there's incremental improvements that everybody could make in their time allocation. And then in those interstitial moments or those free moments, like when you're driving home from that long day, are you just turning the radio on and listening to whatever's on? Or are you tuning in to Finding Mastery. Like are you up leveling what you're consuming? I think is a good place to start. And even if you have 10 minutes to put your phone down and go for a walk and allow your curiosity to wander and then notice what it naturally gravitates towards,

that's a data point that you can look at and say, hmm, maybe on Saturday afternoon when the kids are taking a nap and I know I have a half an hour, I'll go back and look at at and say, maybe on Saturday afternoon, when the kids are taking a nap and I know I have a half an hour, I'll go back and look at that and say, what could I do with that? Strumming a guitar or writing a joke or whatever your muse may be.

Do you have jokes? It's different for everybody. No, this is not me. And I'm just saying everybody has something creative or some kind of interest that is latent within them that is deserving of notice and nurturing. And it's about the small moments. It's not, again, about the grand gestures of quitting your job or getting divorced or any of these other things that we point to as being liberating or as markers on the path to building a brand new life. I think it's really in the small little moments. What are you doing

in those anonymous periods of time when no one's looking and you have a couple minutes? It's really good. I'll give you an example of a small anonymous moment that has been meaningful for me and then many athletes and people I spent time with is when you get into your car. So I look for thresholds. The moment you get into your car, we would set up a challenge. And the challenge is, can you be so present that you hear your seatbelt click? Pretty simple. But a lot of times we're kind of doing three four things you know like we're just kind of running to get in the car or whatever but just taking a moment to hear your seatbelt click and then when you hear your seatbelt click one deep breath so one in nice inhale double exhale

so in for four out for eight something like that and then we just keep a little mental log because it's only a couple times a day that you're in your car and we were competing so it's this fun way to compete with your friends to hold you accountable. There was nothing ever on the line other than like, oh, I got you, you know? And so it was just fun in that way. And so that was a small little, very small, almost butchering the contour and shape of what you were pointing to, but making it very concrete. That's a nice little small moment. Yeah, I like that. I like that.

Do you like that one? I do. It's sort of a multitasking thing, right? Because you're not asking anybody to devote any extra time to anything because you have to do that already. And most of the time we miss paying attention to it because we're putting the key in. We're starting the car. We're getting our GPS of something.

So it's just a moment. The other moment that very small to point to is you're going to notice a theme of me competing with my friends and it's not meant to be better than somebody, but it's meant to have camaraderie and some accountability in what we do. So we would compete for moments of awe. And so it sounds so reductionist here. This is the most Gervais thing ever.

I know. It was a coach, like I do with coaches and athletes. And so it was a running tally and it was how many moments of awe did you have at the end of the day? And so we text each other. And the moment of the moments of awe where you were so present and you got the grandiosity of something that your hair actually stood up. Yeah. That's a high bar. It's a high bar. So your hair on your arms or your whatever would stand up and technically it's called phylloerection, which is always fun to say out loud for me. I'm still 15 at some level.

So phylloerection, phyllo, hair, erection being straight up. So a phylloerection, a moment of awe, and then we just keep track. So is this other little way to help point to something? You can't be about it if you're not deeply focused and you can't be about it if you're anxious or sloppy with the gratitude to be in this moment. And you can't be about a moment of awe if you miss the grandiosity and how small this little thing that's happening actually is. And so when that unique soup of experience takes place, we get that phyllo erection, that moment of awe, and you go, ah, you know, like, ah, this is a good one.

And at some level, it probably takes it away, which is okay as a starting place. You know, for me, it was okay, at least. And so we compete for moments of awe. Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to understand this. So if I'm that person who's time pressured and every minute of every day is scheduled out, the added pressure of like, now I got to find a moment of awe and make my hair stand up. Like how many, I got, I got two hours left in the day. I haven't gotten my moment of awe yet. Like that pressure is going to work at cross purposes with your facility to actually find that moment.

You can't compete with me then because I'm going to kick your ass out of it. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't say that awe comes easy to me. Like I got a lot of work to do there. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers,

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. And now back to the conversation. No, so this is how it works is that it's not adding something new. I've got to go outside and see the Grand Canyon sunset. But I don't live anywhere near the Grand Canyon. It's not that. For me, it happens in moments that are already unfolding.

But I'm bringing myself into that moment in a way that allows for the magnificent of that moment to be present in my body. Right. So in a kind of Alan Watts way, if you're adequately present and fully paying attention to what's happening, every single moment should be all producing. Just had one right now, Rich. Rich, I'm plus one. It just happened. The way that you took that, added Alan, oh, it's still in me right now, added Alan Watts to it.

So I just had one. It's that, it's really that simple right now added alan watts to it so i just had one it's that it's really that simple amazing yeah and so maybe maybe by the end of the conversation you've got your i'll let you know you got i'll call it out when it actually happens how about it i will yeah okay good this is so awesome not not that not that it then gets put on you to produce that in me. It's about my ability to, I feel like I'm pretty present right now, but I don't know that I'm adequately present, present to have my hair stand on end. Yeah. And so it's not, it's not the actual aim. You're exciting. I'm happy to be here, but still. Okay. I'm not having a helo erection over here. So anyways, not to butcher the,

I'm not trying to make this the end in of itself and nor make it a means to an end, but just being present, it can naturally happen. So it's really what I'm pointing to is can you be, to the athletes, not you or the coaches, like, can you be to the athletes not you or the coaches like can you be really present and then you live a pretty exciting life and when you're in it so you called it butterflies earlier maybe those are moments of awe i don't know you know like they are you know functionally how they are different but it's just maybe a little shape shift into being, having that vulnerability and the excitement at the same time. Yeah. We'll play with it.

All right. I'm going to chew on that. This is our holiday challenge to each other. Moments of awe. Yeah. What do you think the average is per day? Per day? When you're in it.

Yeah. Well, it depends on the people, right? Yeah. You mean with respect to the athletes and the coaches that you work with? Well, how many do you think you could have? How many could I have?

Yeah. Well, I could have a lot. A normal day. Yeah, a normal day. Well, I do, you said I live a pretty exciting life. On one level, I do. But on the other level, just like everybody else, I'm at home with my family and my kids, and I drive to my studio, and most of what I do is work just like everybody else like i i'm at home with my family and my kids and i drive to my studio and most of what i do is is work just like anyone else yeah but then

a couple times a week some amazing person walks into the studio and i think i can't believe this person is here to talk to me so that's a that's exciting and that is definitely awe-inducing for sure so that is dependent on-inducing for sure. So that is dependent on the external environment. But that's an external – yeah, that's not about my ability to be present. That's an externally motivated awe moment. Those don't count or they get downgraded in the app that you're designing about how to compete for awe. It sounds so terrible. Yeah, there's a little toggle switch.

Was it external or internal? Internal, right. You get bonus points. So, look, what I thought we'd do today is just to celebrate your wisdom. And we reached out to our community and your community as well. And they had some questions for us. So it's a bit of a live Q&A. I have not heard these.

It's not live, I should say. They audioed in their question. Our team prescscreened them. So they, who knows what's about to happen, but I haven't listened to them. So I don't have an advantage of formulating my thinking on the fly. Your only advantage being a PhD in psychology,

but listen, it's okay. These are questions for you, not for me. for me i'm excited yeah let's do it we're both students of life that you and I are on and how that parallels all of the pearls that Mike has let the world know in his book and in terms of FOPO. All right, boys. Look forward to hearing you. Scott, so this is a mutual friend.

Yeah. Scott Gorman. Scott Gorman. I love you, buddy. Coming in hot. Coming in hot. With a non-trivial question. Setting the bar high.

So just for fun, because we both know Scott has helped so many. He is one of the most incredible and beautiful examples of service in recovery that I've ever met. And my friendship with Scott goes all the way back to 1998 in my very early days. And he was an instrumental figure in my recovery and an absolute legend in the rooms all across Los Angeles. And it's been so extraordinary to see him take his wisdom and lend it to so many people all across the world. And he does it um he does it from this really genuine place like he is an extraordinary human and and then he and then he and now he's doing it in sport and your worlds collided that's right super high level like folks that everybody in this community everybody most people in the

community would know their names like and if they've ever had a struggle publicly, Scott's probably the first one in the door. Yeah. Here's a story about Scott real quick. Yeah. You can edit it out if you think this is- No, this is fun. So I was in Traverse City to pick up my kid who was in camp this past summer. And that's where Scott lives.

And we were gonna try to connect, but we were too busy or whatever. And I was rushing to make this flight. And Scott undeterred just showed up at the Traverse City Airport to give me a hug. That was it. He's just like, I couldn't let you leave town without seeing you just to give you a hug. That was it. He's just like, I couldn't let you leave town without seeing

you just to give you a hug. That is awesome. That's who this guy is. So before we answer the question, which I have almost forgotten. I know we might have to replay it because this is not a, this is a big mountain to climb right here to answer this one. But if anyone is looking for literally one of the best in the world at guiding from addiction, from thrashing to sobriety, that early intervention or holding your hand somewhere through that process, he literally is one of the best in the world at it and understands what the calling of high performers is about and that unique stress. And so send a note over to info at finding mastery dot net and we'll get you guys connected. I don't have his email at the top of my head, but send it over. We'll make sure we get that done. In terms of answering his question, there's a lot in there. And I think we could spend two hours

just answering this question alone. And I don't wanna deliver a treatise on the 12 steps that would be overly protracted. But what I would say is that the program of recovery to which Scott and I subscribe is one of taking responsibility for your past actions, your resentments, your fears, your sexual behavior, your relationships, identifying patterns that emerge that lead you astray. Making amends to people that you have harmed, which are different than apologies, like actually making things right with people which requires you to confront people it's about establishing new behaviors healthier behaviors it's about learning how to set healthy boundaries for yourself it's about discovering that internal motivation, speaking to FOPO and where FOPO

gets in the way of you connecting with what's important to you and your values. It's a process of self-integration and self-discovery that at its core is two things one a spiritual program so on top of all of these things that you are doing and these tools that you're learning about and then applying in the real world it's also about learning what you have control over and what you don't and developing the capacity to have the humility to surrender yourself over to something that you don't quite understand that's more powerful than yourself of your own design. And the second piece being service, which is giving back the gift that you've been given freely and giving it freely to others. And then taking all of these principles and these tools

that initially are just about overcoming your addiction to drugs and alcohol, but then applying them in all of your affairs to all aspects of your life. So it's a blueprint and a program for living that has been revolutionary in helping addicts and alcoholics all over the world. I think Alcoholics Anonymous is one of the great miracles. The fact that it not only still exists in the way that Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob initially imagined it, but has flourished and grown is quite a remarkable thing. But on top of that, it's also a program that I think anybody could benefit from. I mean, the principles are applicable to anybody. You don't have to have an addiction problem or be in a crisis to learn from the wisdom of the program and apply the tools in in your everyday life and it's changed my life

saved my life continues to save my life and it's people like scott g that make me optimistic about humanity that is so awesome you just summed up the 12 plus the serenity and the act of service. And the underrepresented or the under, I think the 12-step program is one of the most powerful, but underrepresented, undercelebrated is the word I'm looking for, movements in the last, I don't know, 100 years? Like pretty radical. How old is, Dr. Bob? This is a question that Scott could answer without even thinking about it, and I should know.

But basically, it came together after the stock market crash. What year was that? 30s? Yeah. Early 40s. And part of it is the model model which is decentralization without any authority so every group is its own self-sustaining unit and there's a series of traditions 12 traditions to go with the 12 steps that help guide how the organization and the groups themselves are structured.

That has been a huge reason why it's continued to flourish and didn't implode on the shoulders of ego and power that doom most organizations. Like even the greatest corporations in the world don't last forever. At some point, they're outdated or something happens with management or what have you that doom them. And this organization continues to flourish because of this very interesting model. I would imagine Harvard Business School or somebody has done a study on this model. It seems like other organizations would benefit from trying to figure out how this could be applicable in other contexts. You're pointing to something I don't know. I'm going to go look that up. That's really cool. And I'm not going to have an answer in show notes or

anything like that, but that's an interesting way to go point to the way that this organization has thrived over all the trade wins. There's no boss. There's no one in charge. Yep. And it's real work. Oh, yeah. Like it's real work.

Well, the meetings are for getting together to help other alcoholics and newcomers and to share the work that you're doing when you're not at the meeting. That's right. And you can be a child of a codependent, I'm sorry, a child of an alcoholic or drug addict, and they've got groups for you. There's NA for narcotics, there's SA for sex anonymous, like there's different groups. And overeaters, all kinds of afflictions. My thinking around addiction has evolved over the years. And in part, that's due to the many guests that I've had on the podcast. But I've begun to think of addiction as something that lives on a much broader spectrum than I originally thought to be true. And I think nowadays with everybody walking around with a phone in their pocket and apps that are scientifically designed to capture and maintain your attention, I think we're all in a place where we can understand the pull, the powerful pull of something that

we don't quite have control over. So for somebody who just, once they get on TikTok, it's just hard to shut the phone down and they keep scrolling all the way to the person with a needle in their arm and everything in between. I think on some level, every human being suffers from some form of compulsion that leads them astray and makes them engage in behaviors they wish that they could overcome or transcend. I think that alcoholics and drug addicts are extreme versions of that, but it comes in all colors, shapes, and forms. And now, one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum.

With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Let's jump right back into the conversation. Okay, let's do question number two. Let's do it. Hey there, Rich and Mike, Rebecca Rush here. Thank you very much for getting together and taking our questions. So stoked. My question is, I'm two years into recovery from a concussion, TBI, mild TBI by all accounts,

but the recovery has been anything but mild with some long-term post-concussive issues. And I've spent a lot of time working on myself, and I'm happy to say recovery is finally coming along, but I'm kind of grappling with the question now of self-care versus self-absorption and indulgence and, and kind of where that line is. Um, because doing a lot of work on yourself, it's great for everyone, but I feel like there's a bit of a turning point of, is enough and enough. Enough is enough and we get out of our way and move from the self to others. So I'm really kind of grappling with that balance of self-care and self-absorption. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Thanks a ton. Bye. So Rebecca Rush is one of the greatest in her sport.

All-timer. I mean, full legend. Red Bull athlete for a very long time, setting the limits of your, or exploring all of the limits. She is rad. And so you know her, it sounds like. I know her a little bit. Yeah. She came and did the show. She's always inviting me to all of her races and stuff like that, which I've yet to take her up on, but I absolutely adore Rebecca and she is a straight up legend. Yeah. That's really good. Thank you, Rebecca. So good question. Where would you start with that? I don't know. I was going to throw this one at you. I have a few thoughts, but I feel like it would be irresponsible for me to start,

given that I am not somebody with scientific experience with TBI and that's a very sensitive issue. So I feel like we should address the biological aspect of that first. Well, I think the biology is, we don't really know what's happening. You know, there's some best guesses. Your brain gets pushed around and, you know know like there's a scrambling there's a bruising there's you know there's some stuff that takes takes place biologically but i hear this as psychological and behavioral so the on the psychology it sounds like she's been taking care of herself she's been investing and cool like that's great that's what we need to do and it feels like maybe it's spilled over to her being concerned about taking too much time or focusing too much on healing of self,

as opposed to what I heard her point to, which is being more focused on something else, someone else, others. And we do know that being in service is one of the evidence-based methodologies for anxiety and depression. So that's not, I don't say that trivially, that is a real best treatment for mental health. So if there, oftentimes with TBI, there are these secondary things that take place where there's an anxiety, depression, there's something that gets kicked up. There's a loneliness, there's a fear that's in there. And as well as there's some cognitive challenges. So we don't focus in the way that we would like. And there's some sort of challenge in the way that our brain is processing. And we can also have some emotional volatility as well. And so it's, it's a complicated soup of behaviors and consequences that, that each person is kind of an N of one. So we don't, we don't have our arms

around it. That's one of the reasons it's scary. And so I think we wrestle with what is the line between taking care of self and self-indulgence, I think is the word, or self-obsession, something like that, and pointing to other people. And the way that I would address that is, oh yeah, start pointing to other people right now. Be in service. Activate that. And that actually might pull you through some of the symptomology. It also enhances purpose. There's a whole host of

benefits when you shape your thoughts, words, and actions benevolently for another person or another set of people. So I would definitely say point to that now. And it can be as simple as, you know, the local charity and figuring out how to get connected to them. It doesn't have to do anything with riding bikes or doing the extreme stuff that Rebecca naturally knows how to do. Yeah, two thoughts on that. I mean, the first being that it's interesting that what's good for her, which might feel like it's at cross purposes with her healing is also good for other people. In other words, the act of service, which is an act of getting out of your self-obsession

to help another human being is actually in service to her and her own healing, which I think is really cool. Secondarily, it's not an on-off switch. It's not an either-or, is it? You can be taking care of your brain and engaging in that healing process while also doing other things. Can you not? A hundred percent.

I wonder, because Rebecca is so skilled at pushing right to the edge, like the cardio edge, the risk edge, like really good at it, that that model, I wonder if that quote unquote extreme model, applying your will to something to the nth degree is part of the DNA of the endurance athlete. So I know if I'm facing a problem, if I just work longer and harder and just am willing to suffer more, that I will be able to solve it or get to the other side of it, which is orthogonal to the notion of surrender and presence and being and the like, right? So Rebecca, being somebody who is so proficient at the highest, most elite level at pushing herself, at enduring suffering, at finding that extra gear, it's of course intuitive or natural that she would think that she can apply that incredible skillset to her TBI and her healing. And it doesn't work that way. And she, I'm sure knows this, but still you have that. That's your, that's your go-to, right? That's your strength. And another little ripple to that, and I'll let you go, is I'm also pretty sure that a brain injury takes a lot longer to heal than one might think.

Or when you start to feel good and you think you're fine, there's still quite a long distance to go with that. And so less is more and, and developing the instinct to take the foot off the gas, as opposed to pressing it all the way to the floor, which she's so good at is counterintuitive and probably more difficult than training for a race that most people can't even wrap their heads around. I love where you just took it. I've got an image as you were talking that, you know, Rebecca, you're waking up in the morning and everything is optimized. Like first thing you're going to, you're going to drink the certain whatever that's good for TBIs. You're going to go and eat the things that are good for TBIs. You're going to get in your oxygen, you know, tank.

You're going to then go float. Then you're going to go put some compression boots on, you know, like, and you're going to go get some sort of another elixir and then a soft tissue and then a stretch like all of it would be optimized throughout the day i wonder if that's what she's pointing to is like wait i'm i'm really training hard to recover from a tbi as opposed to um and maybe that's where it's confusing possibly we would have to ask her and know more. I don't know that that's the case. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case, and maybe that's why it feels indulgent. But I also imagine, I mean, I think all of those practices are probably great and accelerate the healing process, but are they not in the final one or 2% of the healing? Like

most of the healing, the body can take care of on its own if you just rest and slow down. Yeah. I think that we don't know the right path for TBI protocols and some people that get really dizzy. And so vestibular training is something that they found to be really good at some sort of threshold when, you know, turning them upside down is actually a really good thing. And there's these really interesting apparatus that you get into to do some vestibular training. So I don't know. Interesting. I wish I did, Rebecca. Do we feel like we answered her question? I don't know, but I feel like we definitely celebrated you, Rebecca. We see you. It would be fun to do a follow-on to that question.

All right, Rebecca, keep surrendering. Heal up. Keep pushing. We love you. Appreciate you. All right, let's take question number three. Hi, Michael and Rich. This is Nadine from Trinidad and Tobago.

I was just joking around with a friend of mine that fighting against life is one of my personality traits, but it is quite problematic at times. And I was wondering if you had any advice on, you know, how to think about that and deal with that. Looking forward to the podcast. Talk soon. That's a good one. Interesting. Yeah, I really appreciate that question. Fighting against life. I guess it depends, first and foremost, how you define that. that's a good one interesting yeah I really appreciate that question fighting against life I guess it depends first and foremost how you define that you mean the type of fighting what does that mean to fight against I conjured up him as we were talking like my wife has got a radical fight spirit in her and so

she's had to and so I wouldn't say fighting against life, but like having that fighting spirit. So I wonder what fighting against life is. What do you think? I can't say for sure, but perhaps she's a very spirited, spicy person who doesn't take no for an answer or when things don't go well, she's going to continue knocking. Or maybe there are a lot of frustrations that create resistance that she's knocking up against and not getting the results that she wants. Was there a hint of frustration in there, you think? Maybe life isn't working out as well as. Yeah. Usually that's where the questions come. And she was talking to a friend.

So I was thinking that she's pointing to grit, you know, having some passion perseverance. She's got some long-term goals. She knows how she'd like it to go. Some of that tenacity, the spirit in there, those are all well-established psychological principles. But if you have those and not the counter-rotation, then it becomes problematic. It's like a unidimensional rather than multidimensional. And so the counter-rotation to a fight for life is A,

you would know the answer to this. Surrender. Yeah, right. So like a letting go, a trusting. And it's really hard to do when, if you've been burned or your family of origin has been burned or somewhere in the system of becoming you up into this moment, there's been that trauma where you've been let down, where you've been abused or hurt in some way that is microtrauma, massive traumas, that that's one of the reasons we fight. We're going to fight for that innocence that was taken. We're going to fight for justice.

We're going to fight for the right. We're going to fight because we want something. And we've been thrusted into that this is an adaptation that works for us. And at some point, great, awesome. Most defense mechanisms and or protection mechanisms can be awesome assets as long as they're not poisonous to the other dimensions of you. And I don't know, I would just kind of wave my hands and say, yeah, cool. You got that. You're good at it. What else? What's the other tool in the toolbox? What are the other ones that you can, you can, I've got a good story that I'll bring up.

I wish I knew the athlete's name right now. I think it's, it's Edelman as one of the receivers. I will correct this in the show notes, but it's a, it's a receiver and, um, in the NFL and he, and there's a foul called on him. So one of the line refs throws a flag and he runs up. He's a fiery competitor. And he runs up and he goes, no, no, no, no, no. And the ref looks at him like, I'm about to throw you out. Like, get out of my face.

And so the athlete goes, oh, I'm working on this. I just get so uptight so easily. I just, and he starts to smile just like to your point. And the ref is like laughing, like, and he goes, Oh yeah, I'm working on this. I'm I'm. So he's quick to trigger. And that's what makes him so great on the field. And then he had that same kind of frustrated nature and intensity with the ref. And so, but he caught himself, but to have that moment of grace, like, Oh God, I'm working on this. My wife tells me, yes, yes. Okay. This is what she's talking about or whatever the fun narrative is. I love that spirit to catch yourself in real time, have a little bit of space and some grace and a smile. Like to me, that is so inviting to be in a relationship with

somebody like that. I love that part. Yeah, that's a cool story. I think the antidote or the other tool that you can work on is that idea of allowing, you know, just being okay with whatever is happening. And I found that when you can just sit with the discomfort, despite the frustration or the resentment or the impulse to rail against whatever is happening. And this idea that you've got to take action because nothing's going to change unless you do. And you just be with it. Things change, man. That scares me so much. Well, it's scary. Yeah. And it's not appropriate in every instance. Okay. Yeah. I think it involves a really astute perception of

the few things that you can exert control over to change. And most of the things that you can't, it's a serenity prayer thing in many ways. And I've had to learn this lesson the hard way. When I was a young person, I've said this many times, but I never thought of myself as particularly talented in any specific discipline. I wasn't a great student. I wasn't naturally- Stanford, you got lucky at Stanford. Well, here's what happened. So I was a terrible student for a long time. I wasn't naturally, well, here's what happened. So I wasn't, I, I, I was a terrible student for a long time. I had trouble learning. I had trouble making friends. I couldn't catch a ball or throw a ball, anything involving eye hand coordination. I was terrible. So I never got

picked for any of the teams and didn't have any prospects to speak of in terms of being an athlete, but I did fall in love with swimming and had some capacity. And when I got to the point as a young person where I had the opportunity to join a team with a lot of young superstars, it was immediately apparent that I was not as talented as them. And these were kids who were setting national age group records when they were 12, 13, 14, etc. But I realized that I had this capacity to work. I loved working hard. I loved solving that equation of work in, results out. And I was able to rapidly improve.

And for me, the path forward was always to just be the last one to leave and the first one to get there, the willingness to suffer more than anybody else and put in the extra work. And that transferred into the classroom and my grades improved. And suddenly I was competitive with those other kids. And that led to me getting into a bunch of fancy colleges and being world ranked as a swimmer and all the good stuff, right? Being a young person with a lot of promise and a lot of options and in a very privileged situation. Did you work out of desperation, anxiety? It was, I mean, this is a whole other podcast, but highly motivated to find a way to belong, find a place where I could be accepted and to secure the approval of others, mostly my parents.

So chasing that led to a performance mindset. That's why I wrote this book. Yeah, I know. Which is like your book spoke to me deeply in that regard. Cause I, my entire life was driven from that point of view. I see you in my, I see me in your story. In what way? Oh, same thing. Like needing to achieve, to be seen and to be safe and belong and to get the approval. I still find myself, I love my parents and I still find myself wanting to talk more about the thing, like, I'm glad that they know the things

that I'm doing that are going well. You know, like, why? Right. I already know they love me, you know? Right, like, why? I know, it's so deep, that groove is so deep, right? And it's an itch that never quite gets scratched. But in my case, I had a comeuppance with that when alcohol became a problem.

And I knew it was a problem. And my life was chaos and was falling apart. And time and time again, I was trying to apply this huge capacity for self-will to this problem, thinking this superpower that I have, which is my ability to work and to stay in it, certainly that should be sufficient to solve this problem, right? Every time I tried it, the problem got worse.

I could not solve this problem. And this was like the great dilemma of my life until my whole world caved in on top of me. And I was compelled out of pain to try to find another way. And that way resided in this idea of letting go and surrender, which gets conflated with the notion of giving up. It's not giving up. That's the part that scares me. I've been studying trust and let go and surrendering for a long time.

And it's very difficult to practice. It still scares me. Oh, good. Yeah. It's not like I'm no master of this. Trust me. But I do know. Because you work really hard. And I think that if I think if somebody came in here and interrupted this conversation and was really rude to me, I think you'd say something.

I don't think that you would just be like, oh, let's just kind of see how this goes. And let me just surrender. And because I can't control the other person, I can't control what Mike's going to do. I think if I felt threatened or whatever, I think he would say something. So help me understand that bit of it. Well, it's nuanced and it's delicate in its approach.

In the event of somebody coming in here and being rude and interrupting us, the move is to set a healthy boundary and make that person know that that's an unacceptable behavior. There you go, yeah. Without getting caught up in trying to control that person. There you go.

So it's not about opting out of challenging situations or being a wallflower or sitting in the lotus position it's about a mature understanding of where to apply your will and where to lean back and let things unfold and be mindful about your response to buy a little bit of extra time to read the room and figure out the behavior that will be self-preserving for you, respectful, self-respectful and respectful of others. And ultimately, I think in many cases, more cases than people realize, you end up in a better position to get the result that you desired or a result that you couldn't foresee, as opposed to the relentless application of your will that you think is going to drive you in the direction you want to go

and ultimately just grinds the gearbox down to sawdust and leaves you stranded on the side of the road and confused because you worked hard and you did everything you could. Why am I stalled out here in the desert? Yeah, right. It's really good, Rich. You're well understood. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore.

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because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance in the, in reflection to the question about fighting for life or a fight for life, I think it was, I love dragons. And so like if you were a dragon, what kind of dragon are you? Are you a reclining dragon? Are you an adolescent, you know, dragon where you've got some fire, but it kind of sometimes is hot. Sometimes it's too big. Sometimes it doesn't come out right. Are you a mature kind of like adult dragon? That's like the alpha on top of the castle.

That's like, you got to come through me, you know, like what kind of dragon are you? Are you asking me this? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, there could be a thousand. You could be the fun dragon. It's kind of bouncing around all over the place. There's a ton of different dragons.

I think I would be the, I think I'm the, the dragon who is a leader, but a reluctant leader who is still conflict averse, probably due to lingering FOPO issues. Yeah, right. But when need be can step up and set the boundary, but is more interested in coalition building and empowering other people than asserting myself in some kind of alpha fashion.

What is your, what's the fire like? Well-controlled? It's pretty well-controlled. It feels like. Yeah. I don't, I don't. You're blown. I'm pretty equanimous. Like I don't lose my cool very easily. Yeah. So for so many people that the world has told them that the dragon is not okay because of their fire or their fight or their whatever. Like it's too much. And they put the dragon away. Kind of lock it into a visual for a minute. Kind of put it in the dark little corners of the basement or whatever.

Put a gate over it. Lock it up. And that dragon doesn't get exercised. And so it's the flame has gone out. The passion for life, if you will, is extinguishing. And then when we get scared, when we're overwhelmed, we quickly run to get the key and fiddle in to try to get the, come on, dragon, get me going. Like, let's go.

And then it comes out raging because it hasn't exercised. It doesn't know what to do and so like i think it's this metaphor extended just a little bit longer is exercising your dragging exercise that part of you that breathes fire that is able and that is not destructive that's just that idea fire can warm as well but just has all that passion that you can muster up is a really cool way to think about living life like how can you bring that part of you into whatever you're doing? It's, I don't see it as necessarily a fight, but there's an aliveness when you've got that passion. Yeah. I like that. It makes me think of the race car that's in storage. You can't let it sit in there for a year and then expect it to

perform. You got to air it out and drive it and let it be what it is. That's right. So the dragon has to be allowed to be a dragon. Yeah. And the person who has an instinct for fighting against the world, if we're giving that a charitable bent, that's somebody who thinks a lot about justice, let's say, that is a powerful energy that should be exercised and channeled. Yeah, cool.

But it just has to be applied in the right direction and it needs to be understood such that it is wielded responsibly and not scattershot yeah i like the scattershot the not scattershotting and passivism by the way is a dragon's approach like what it takes to stand for something and to mobilize a community for something even when you know who i'm pointing to, even when it could cost you your life or you end up in jail or like when you take a pacifist approach to change, the dragon is with you. Yeah. That's a courageous act. Yeah. A hundred percent.

But you know, the passivity piece gives it the wrong connotation because it takes courage to do something like that. All right. We're rolling. Let's go one more. What do you think? Yeah. One more. We could end on a dragon. I know. Yeah. Hi, my name is Laura

and I have two questions for Dr. Mike and Rich, two of my favorite podcasters and two of my greatest teachers. I love that the two of you will be getting together. Greatness takes on different forms. For example, physical feats of greatness, intellectual, relational. How do you define greatness? And in what areas

of your respective lives has this manifested itself? And the second question is with cathedral thinking in mind, what areas of individual development and society at large do we need to focus on to have the greatest impact on future generations? Wow. Laura's bringing some. Yeah, that is like. I'm glad you're in this community, Laura. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I'm sure you get the greatness question a lot, right? You probably have a very well thought out answer to that. No, not as good as maybe somebody would imagine. I think about, I don't think about greatness very often. I don't think about legacy very often. I do think about obviously the shaping of one's life towards mastery.

At one level, that is great. What is, yeah, what's the distinction between mastery and greatness? Well, mastery is an approach. There's a, if the way I think about it is mastery, then right underneath of it is high performance. And underneath of that is performance, let's say, and there's like performing under pressure or whatever, whatever. So just looking at the stack and all the way down at the bottom is choking. Okay. So choking, micro choking, performing under pressure, performing, thriving under pressure,

high performance, and then mastery. And so in that stack, high performance is about getting it done when it counts, like executing in complicated environments or conditions, being able to execute at a high level consistently. So that's like what a high performer does. But high performance doesn't include a commitment to the artistic expression. It's more about ambition and execution and achievement and being able to do that consistently at a high level. Mastery has, and they can, they, they still have the ability to perform at that level, but there's a different shape to it. And that shape has two forms, mastery of self and mastery of craft. And I'm much more interested

in mastery of self through craft. So the craft is just the laboratory or the ecosystem and it really is about mastery of self. And so it's a path, it's a process, it's a commitment. It's got more of an artistic form to it or contour than the mechanical celebration of high performance. So high performance feels more metallic and mastery feels more wooden, you know, like an old wood, piece of wood.

So I don't really think about greatness. Russell Wilson in the locker room, when guys would come in and out of the locker room, he would greet everybody. And so he was the quarterback for the Seattle Seah the locker room, he would greet everybody. And so he was the quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks and he would greet everybody. And I'm not going to ever talk about what happens in the locker room, but I'm going to talk about what happens right at the door of the locker room in this case. And he would put his hand out and he would greet each athlete, each coach, every staff member.

And he said, come on, let's be great today. Be great. And he's slapping their hands. Be great. Let's be great today. So he's pointing to be your very best. And that was the commitment that we made across that organization is to support each other and make a fundamental commitment to yourself to be your very best. And that is rare. And that is pretty special because it's so easy to slip into. I just want to be better than them.

And if I'm OK, if I'm one step ahead of them. But to make that fundamental commitment to be your very best, I guess I point to that is great. But I just don't think about greatness very often. And I don't think about legacy. Much like when I ask people, and I've asked you this a handful of times, like, how do you think about mastery? Almost everybody said, well, I don't know. You know, like that's, I don't think I'm a master at anything. You know,

I'm committed to something masteries for other people to decide. And so I only two people in the 500 interviews have said, well, I am a master at what I do. and this is how I think about it. Only two out of 500. What do you make of that? I just, I mean, come on. You know, like, well. Sorry, finish your thought.

No, no, no, no. That's good. That's a good transition. That's pretty funny. Yeah, well, I think there's a little bit of confusion, perhaps, around the difference between being a master and the notion of mastery. Correct. Because I think everybody can engage in mastery and people find themselves in different points along the spectrum of what that might mean.

But it's available to all of us. 100%. And I like the idea of, I mean, first of all, I too don't think about greatness. I sort of bristle at that word. I don't know why, but I don't think I spend any time thinking about that, which is why I tossed the softball over to you. Yeah, and I don't think about it.

I was like, I don't have an answer to that, but I do, the way I think about it, and you captured, you captured it in your reflection on how it all goes back to the self. Mastery is a function of mastery of self. And if I was to think about greatness, I would contextualize it in the construct of what it means to grapple with who you are. And I think greatness or mastery is pursued in the process of self-knowledge and self-understanding in a fearless and courageous way. And from that perspective is, again, something that is available to all of us. Are you courageous enough to really look within yourself

and try to excavate and understand who you are, to address your blind spots, to untie those knots that hold you back? And mastery in whatever form, artistic, athletic, professional, business, whatever it is, will be a byproduct of that journey that you go on, which is a lifetime of journey, you know, lifetime. It's a, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a path that

you will trod that is not linear and fraught and confusing most of the time that will have you going backwards, you know, a percentage of that time. But that's what we're here to do, man. We're here to grow. And I think anybody who shoulders that responsibility is engaging in what she might be referring to as greatness and is on the path to mastery and the broadest definition of that word, because you cannot be a master in anything that you do unless you are a master of the self. That's right. And there's a humility in that. And there's an artistic contour of the way that you've designed your life that is not the treadmill of high performance, not the treadmill of the

metallic celebration of the hardware that comes with it. And I would add one more that one of the reasons that I'm so committed to one of my first principles is that no one does it alone. We're more like a coral reef than these individual contributors. And so the commitment to mastery of self is so that you can be there for others, so that you can be a meaningful contributor to other people's lives or the relationships that one point that you can be grounded and present and have access to thinking clearly and critically. And you can see the experience of other people and you can maintain that sense of connection with them. And maybe even since your life vest feels like it's well inflated and on that you can put it on somebody else as well or help guide so the self-help industry drives me nuts if we stop at self it's so that we can help others do the same yeah beautifully put uh i was reflecting on

when you came and did my podcast the other day and we got into a discussion around who are the greatest masters in sport and you you said that you thought that Alex Honnold was head and shoulders above anybody else in terms of like what he can do. And in the context of high performance, we can see him free solo, you know, that L cap and marvel at just how extraordinary that is. But he's able to do that because he is a master of himself.

He understands who he is, what his capacity is, like he is deeply connected, not just to his physical abilities, but to his mental, emotional body in such a way. And that's the engine that allows him to do that amazing thing. And perhaps that gets missed or is underappreciated when it comes to, and he's, you know, there's lots of other people like that. He's just a very extreme example of that in motion. And one of the reasons I point to him is because let's say LeBron James or Michael Jordan, certainly masters of craft, certainly high performers in every discussion

that you would imagine. But what Alex has done differently is like, there's not a secondary game. It's not for fame, money. It's not for recognition. He was doing it as a dirtbag, which is an endearing term, out of his own little van. Now he's made some money now because it got celebrated.

But for years, this was a... It's just, this is who he is. That is so inspiring to me. Know who you are and dress accordingly. Carve your unique path in life. And that's what, when I think of Alex, maybe in a romantic way, not that way, but romanticizing his approach to life, I thought, oh, that's so inspiring. There was a second part to this question. Do you remember what it was?

Cathedral thinking. Yeah, we definitely got into the first one. So let's just play with it though on a surface level. When you think of somebody who's great or when you think of greatness, where do you naturally go? I know we both have that bristling thing. The word greatness always leads my mind to drift towards sport. Does it? Because those feel like they're of a piece. When you talk about greatness, you talk about athletic performances. I don't know if that's just a bias that i have

you know where i go i go to historical i go to art that stood up for the ages i go like masterpiece greatness i kind of maybe put those together a little bit so i think of like some of those folks and then i think of the intrepid you know know, explorers like Magellan. And I think about Magellan a lot. And so that's kind of like, I don't know if he was a master. I don't know if he was a high performer. He died. But what, you know, what's great about what he did is that he took on, I know everyone says the world's flat. He says, I think I can circumnavigate this thing. I think I can get over to new land. So he goes to a warring country. Spain and Portugal did not get along. He goes to his non-native country and says, hey, king and queen, I know you only got a handful of ships.

I need them. They said, for what? He says, this is what I'm going to go do. And I'm going to bring you back a lot of money and some land. And they said, let's take the bet. But for him to set out to convince 351 other humans to go on those boats with him, he died on the way. He didn't make it all the way back. But there's something really fascinating about that for me. So I might go greatness there. And what aspect of that is identifiable as greatness? Is it his ability to build consensus around this novel revolutionary idea?

Or is it the courageous act of actually setting sail? Yeah, I think it's one other. And it's maybe two other. So the first one is using his imagination to create a radical future that he wants to in-house, like he wants to be part of. So he uses imagination to say that, yes, that is what I'm going to do. And then he was able to, so he had the internal resources that he used, his imagination and whatever. And then he went and mobilized his external resources, king and queen, which like, who is he to do that? And then he mobilized another community of folks. And then they had to navigate some really tricky times, the Magellan Strait,

you know, some of the most treacherous waters around like hostile tribes like friendly tribes like he had to navigate places that were uncharted and so he literally was designing the map as he was going and and back to alex he shaped his life fundamentally in accordance with what he his imagination said was important. So it's like that fundamental commitment that I find really refreshing. Is it a requirement that that vision or imagination or way of life be contrarian to social expectations or traditions no i think like you look at at like so there's alex dirtbag lifestyle dirtbag is a term of affection again um or magellan saying

no it's not this way i think it's this way part of it is taking a stand that is new and different and is going to require courage because it's not, it defies the sort of norm of the time. Yeah. I get down with Mother Teresa in the same way, which is, that sounded weird, but like I have high respect for Mother Teresa that she pushed against the grain as well. Her communities were saying, this is not what we're supposed to do with those types of people. And she said, no way, I'm touching them, leprosy and whatever. Like, I'm here to serve. And her communities thought that that was not safe. It was not wise.

It was a waste of time. And, you know, like, so maybe for me pushing against the grain, you know, I grew up in action sports and the counterculture vibe speaks to me, but, um, I'm not sure that it has to be. I think if something, if, if, if your life is your thoughts, your words, and your actions are measured by a tuning fork and there's harmony in them, I think that that's probably what's called quote unquote greatness and i don't i can't imagine alex his alex hondel's tuning fork being true if he's if he's doing this for like more eyeballs on social

or he's doing this for approval of whatever or he just wants to i don't know some other second game i don't feel like that you can be that tuning for your tuning fork can be true enough yeah i agree with that that's cool rich do we get we do i feel like we still have that other piece of her question that we have to answer okay so should we play it back again so we can let's play the second one back just we need a tuning fork yeah the memory tuning fork greatness takes on different forms. For example, physical feats of greatness, intellectual, relational. How do you define greatness?

And in what areas of your respective lives has this manifested itself? And the second question is, with cathedral thinking in mind, what areas of individual development and society at large do we need to focus on to have the greatest impact on future generations? That's cool. So there were two pieces in there. The first was about how has greatness shown up in your own life, right? Which we did not answer. Yeah, I know. I don't know.

Should we go back and answer that? And then... Where do we apply? Using cathedral thinking, where can we apply? What is cathedral thinking? It's a new phrase to me. Oh, it is? Yeah.

Oh, I thought that was like something that comes up on your show or something from... Why don't we play with the first? Like what do you point to when you say that was a moment or a phase or something of greatness? I would say that all the things that I have achieved or high watermarks that could be pointed to as heightened or elevated moments to celebrate in my life

are all nothing more than external manifestations of my commitment to continuing to work on myself and grow. That's it. They're byproducts. They are not the goal or the aim. They are the result of. So for example, I had the opportunity to get Arnold Schwarzenegger on the podcast and we did it in his office. And me and my guys, we go to Santa Monica and we get a tour of his office and we're playing around with the real sword from Conan. And there's the T2 exoskeleton. And it's just like all the memorabilia from this guy's extraordinary life. And he comes in and he's happy to be there and happy to chat and tell jokes. And Jason, my longtime audio engineer producer just looks at me and he says, well, this podcast has come a long way. You know, it was a crazy moment to meet whatever you think of Arnold. I mean, he's just an icon, right?

He's just a legendary human being who's lived this incredibly colorful, amazing life. And the decisions that I've made over many, many years about how to be and show up in the world led to that moment. And I had a lot of self-awareness in that moment, a lot of gratitude, and a lot of giddiness. Like, what are we doing here? Like, this is crazy, right? But also a deep appreciation and understanding of the mechanics of what led to that, which was a combination of hard work and surrender and a commitment to the craft of podcasting and trying to do it well and bringing a level of intentionality and curiosity and preparation to it, but also all the work that I have and continue to do on myself to be worthy of the role, to be a worthy steward of these conversations such that somebody like that would say, sure, come on over and let's talk. It's awesome.

Every bit of that is awesome. That what you're pointing to is the internal work and the celebration of it or the recognition of it is not the moment of greatness. The greatness is the commitment to do the internal work. Just like all the work that goes into an amazing athletic performance or a race or a game, the trophy or the medal or the finish line is not the thing. Crossing the finish line is a celebration of the journey that got you there, and the value is that journey. It's not contained in a medal. The medal is a symbol, not of the performance itself, but of everything that went

into creating the human being that was capable of that performance in that moment. So good. I don't even want to answer. It's just every bit of that's so good. So let's do the cathedral thinking. What would be an example of that? Because I sort of think if i'm doing something that is for the benefit of future generations how can that not also be benefiting me right well it's a philosophical position on benevolence and altruism um but i think the more concretely concret that question is like, you work really hard to plant a bunch of trees and you're never going to see the maturity of that tree, nor the oxygenation

carbon exchange that is required or the shading, you know, that's going to take place. Or like, I think about that, like breaking your back for something and it's not really for you. Now, what you're pointing to is that doing that and you know that you're doing it for the future is actually the act of kindness that you're going to benefit from because you have the knowing of why you're doing it. But if we answer that question, I think the way that I would, what I would point to there is getting psychological skills into elementary school. So then doubling down in high school.

And so the psychological skills, I'm not talking about intellectual capabilities, that schools do a decent job with that. I'm talking about introducing how to generate a sense of calmness, how to become aware of the thoughts that you have, meditation, mindfulness, how to breathe well for focus, for building capacity, for down regulation, how to generate a state of confidence. Like we don't teach these skills. We don't explicitly teach them. At least I didn't learn them. Nobody taught you how to self-regulate elementary school. No, no, maybe it's too hard. You know, like there's too much that that curricula is, is designed to do, but I don't

know. I was meditating with my son at the age of three and we're you know like i think they can get it in but we're so afraid that we're not going to get the knowledge acquisition in or the structure of learning that our grand says our ancestry our great-grandparents or whatever have taught us but the education system hasn't changed very much like i'm still learning in this. I learned the same format my grandparents, my great grandparents did. And just seeing how my son's learning, it hasn't changed all that much. And now we're going to need to go from becoming great at prompt queuing and relationships with machines where like we're going to have to learn this thing on the fly. Well, not to mention the extraordinary acceleration of these technologies.

I don't think that we're going to be able to, we can even conjure in our minds what the world will be like in 20 years. I think it's happening so rapidly in such a dizzying way that it makes it hard to know what's important to focus on because it can't be skill specific. It has to go back to the root of becoming a well, sort of a self-regulating, well-adapted human being who is resilient and reflective and has the presence and the mindfulness skills to navigate those changes so that they can become adaptable to whatever the world may present at that time. I love your answer because it appreciates the infinite downstream ramifications or implications of fostering and creating and shaping young minds into better humans, basically.

Like if you just raise humans better what does that translate into maybe a better relationship you're getting right at the very root that isn't crisis specific but is just building a human being so that they're in a better place and have more capacity to problem solve and drive the planet in better directions. One of the ways that I want to do it, I'm not there right now to be able to do it unless I had a partner that came on and said, hey, listen, I can help with this lift. But that partner would need to have access or run youth sport in a country. And I understand the sport mind and I understand the sport ecosystem really well.

That's where we should be teaching these skills. And what do we do in practice for youth sports? At some level, we're just kind of like herding cats, you know, but, you know, in your early teens, like 11, 12, 13, there's enough of the frontal cortex that you can help them with some judgment. And, you know, it's not like a herding cat thing. You can teach breathing in practice. You can teach imagery in practice, confidence training in practice. You can teach all of it in practice, but what do we do? Jump shot. Do it again. We're going to run this play footwork. You know, let's make sure you hit again. We're going to run this play. Footwork. Let's make sure you hit the weight bench.

Footwork. Run the play this way. Snap your wrist that way. And we just don't get into the mechanics of the mind. And if we could get into some of that stuff early on, I mean, we'll have a better relationship with ourselves because we know how to regulate. We'll have a better relationship with others. Maybe our divorce rate goes from 52% to like 15 and we'll have a better relationship with mother nature maybe with machines so that's right like

eventually so I'm good I've got this model I started working individually myself and then I started to work with late-night sports is that youth program that I built. I was 18 years running and then went into teams and then went into organizations. And I'm going to fold back into the youth-based sports stuff. And then I'm going to build a dojo. So that's kind of my life arc of work. And the dojo is going to be the kind of where the reclining dragon actually reclines. You got it all mapped out. No, no. Well, that's a vision. That's a vision.

That's pretty cool. Yeah. So. My immediate impulse in response to that question was a little bit different. Instead of going to the root like you did, my mind immediately went to what are the biggest existential crises that future generations will face? Oh, cool. And reverse engineer from there. And when I think about that, I think of two things. I think of climate change, obviously. is the erosion in our ability to effectively communicate with each other and problem solve.

As I cast my gaze out on society right now, I find myself at times despairing when I see the level of discourse, particularly on social media. And what is undeniable is an increasing recalcitrance to engage with people and ideas that don't match up with one's worldview. And I start to think about- What is recalcitrance? Like resistance. What's the word you said is recalcitrant? Like resistance. What's the word you said? Recalcitrant.

Cool word. Yeah. So where does that leave us as a society, as a nation, and as a planet when we're all interconnected by devices, and yet our ability to actually communicate in a healthy and effective way feels extremely unhealthy. So if you just look at America and the division that we're seeing right now, it's hard to see past it to a place where we're united in a way where we agree upon some shared set of values about what we stand for. Short of that, I don't know that, you know, I don't know what the future might hold for

that. So when I think about what can be done, all I can do is confront my own biases and try to develop my own capacity and willingness to say I don't know or tell me more or engage with people that I don't agree with or who I feel are wrongheaded and to do that in a good faith way and to model that for other people. Climate change, we got a lot of work to do. We need to build better humans in order to solve these very real problems that we have right now. There's a lot of work to do. Glad that you're in the world with your dragon. I appreciate you. My dragon just wants everyone to get along. You know what I mean? We're coalition builders.

Rich, thank you for coming through. Thank you for being a mentor in so many ways and shining a bright light on what's good in the world. I don't know who's mentoring who because I'm taking my lead from you, my friend. And I love what you put out in the world? I don't know who's mentoring who, because I'm taking my lead from you, my friend. And I love what you put out in the world. And I just think that you're a gift, man. And it's always a pleasure and an honor to spend time with you and your beautiful audience. So thank you for having me. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode

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