Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Rugby Union Coach Stuart Lancaster on Pressure, Resiliency, Culture

Episode Date: December 20, 2017

This conversation is with rugby coach Stuart Lancaster.Stuart is currently coaching in Dublin, Ireland with Leinster Rugby. He was the former Head Coach of the England Rugby team from 2011-2015. Failure is something no one wants to experience but almost everyone has to go through at some point. Those on the razor’s edge, those that push their own boundaries, curious to see how much they’re really capable of, definitely experience those setbacks. For those performing on the world stage, those setbacks occur under a magnifying lens.Every move critiqued, scrutinized, and debated.In this conversation, Stuart opens up to us and shares a tough moment in his life that he could have let define him.Stuart had an impressive rise to head coach of the English Rugby team only to experience some unfortunate shortcomings during the 2015 World Cup, which was hosted on their home soil.Stuart was let go soon there after.Stuart takes us through the pressure he felt in the lead up to the games and what he felt what wrong.He has some incredible insight on building culture, developing resiliency, and becoming a better leader of men and ultimately becoming a better man himself.Stuart has lived his life on the edge – seizing opportunities when they come his way – and I hope this conversation makes you think about what you’re willing to risk.What scares you the most?Where does pressure come from for you? What type of value system guides your thoughts?These are some great things to think about as we head into the New Year._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And I've got an envelope here for each of you individually signed. And I've written to your parents and I could see all the players look busy and say, you've done what? And I've asked them to done what and uh um I said and I've asked them to articulate what it means to them to see you play in this team anyway slowly one by one during the course of the evening I saw the boys receive their envelopes and open them up

and read them and um the powerful messages that they received and the emotion it had on them you know can you change your culture can you create a culture in in a week i'm not sure you can but i don't think i think i think we went a long way to to moving the players to being what what a really strong team would be in a night never mind a week all right welcome back or welcome to the finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. We want to better understand what's driving them, what they're driven toward, really what they're searching for in their life efforts and why they're working so ridiculously hard to pursue the boundaries of their potential.

And in doing so, I think it just makes clear sense that we work to understand their psychological framework, which is how they make sense of events and the world. And we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good.

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N dot com slash finding mastery. Now, this conversation is with rugby union coach Stuart Lancaster. Stuart is currently coaching in Dublin, Ireland with Leinster Rugby, and he was the former head coach of the England Rugby union national team. And that was

from 2011 to 2015. So this is coaching obviously at the highest level and embedded in the conversation with all the success that he's had, we get to talk about failure and failure, something that really no one wants to experience, but almost everyone that I've learned from and including my own life, that we just have to go through it at some point. And the orientation to failure is really important. If it's this thing that you're bracing against because you don't want, that becomes a limitation at some point. But being open that failure is part of the equation and you're doing everything you can to commit to great success and part of that success is embracing failures and mistakes, then it becomes part of the ecosystem rather than something over there or right in front of you that you're trying to avoid.

And for sure, those on the razor's edge, those that push their own boundaries and are curious to see how much they're really capable of definitely experience those setbacks. It's just daily. Sometimes it's just part of the ecosystem rather than trying to protect oneself from the threat of failure. Okay. Now, all that being said, I am not advocating that like we want failure. I'm saying it's like this really deep fear of it because if we adopt that model that we need to do more to be more, it literally becomes a threat to our existence. And so, you know, I think that we're all very clear. All's too big of a word. You know, I'm editing my own dialogue here. Like I think we're very clear that we are far more than what we do. And it's time to flip that model on its head to do more to be more. And just really be clear that we need to be more and let the doing flow from there. But be more authentic, be more grounded, be more present, be more honest with ourselves and others, and let the doing flow from there. And when that happens,

it becomes like, I don't know, extraordinary things take place for people. And it's hard. It is a hard orientation or framework to pivot. And so this conversation is square down the middle about that. And for those performing on the world stage, you know, those setbacks sometimes occur with a magnifying lens and there's some heat under those lenses. Every move critiqued, every ball or statistic or whatever that you're doing is scrutinized and statted and, you know, literally debated in public form. And, you know, I've been from a distance in the trenches, though. I've been involved in both the success and failures, you know,'ve been from a distance in the trenches though i've been involved in both the success and failures you know on a global stage and it is hard flat out it's just hard and most people i think really hold back from the fear of just how hard that is to be under public scrutiny

scrutiny and that becomes part of the challenge in of itself is that holding back gets right in the way but anyways like i that's all academic i think most people know that but at the same time like really letting go and really moving into that place of exploratory freedom where it's just you're in that space it's a whole different type of toughness that we're talking about here. So in this conversation, Stuart models it brilliantly and he opens up to share about tough moments, a tough moment in particular in his life where he could have let that moment define him and he didn't. And we talked through that process of how he did it. And it is the ability and courage to take an honest inventory of oneself that is often part of accelerated and progressive growth. And so that's embedded throughout this conversation. Now, Stuart takes us through the pressure he felt leading up to a championship opportunity

and how he learned from that experience that have changed the way he experiences and cultivates his cultures and teams around pressure scenarios. So that's really fun too. And he just has incredible insight on building culture and developing resiliency and become a better leader and ultimately becoming a better human himself. And so there's plenty of threads that we can pull on there. And Stuart's lived his life right on the edge. And some of the stories are just phenomenal and great. And I hope you enjoy those for sure. And let's not get lost that like a tone inside of this conversation is

about seizing opportunities when they come and being prepared to seize those opportunities, not being afraid to miss them, but being prepared to capture them. And I hope this conversation really makes you think about your appetite and your willingness and your hunger and thirst to be right on the edge and to be willing to take that risk. And I'm not sure willing is the right word, but being interested in those moments where you can play it safe or you can let it go. And so, yeah. And let's also just keep in context, I guess, at the end of the year is here. If you're listening to this in the new year, that's okay too. But at the end of the year, you know, new year's resolutions we know don't really work, but it is a nice moment in time to declare some intentions, to declare, um, what you'd like to be more of or

less of in the year moving forward. And so with that, like just around this idea of pressure, let's just kind of prime the pump a little bit. Like what scares you the most? I know what it is for me and I'm, I'm happy to talk about it, but not now. You know, what scares you the most? And I'll tell you what, it's not dying. That's not it. There's far worse things than dying. And right underneath that is where does pressure come from for you? And I think that that's a significant question to be able to answer so that you can face it down. Where does pressure come from you? And I think that that's a significant question to be able to answer so that you can face it down. Where does pressure come from you? And what type of value systems are in front of your thoughts? Because there is a framework and a structure that precedes these seemingly haphazard and random

types of thoughts, but there is structure beneath it. So getting clear about that, I think is important as well. They're just great questions to consider and ponder, and I hope you will. And then I hope you'll also push some of those back into our Finding Mastery community, findingmastery.net forward slash tribe. And maybe we can just keep that momentum really crisp in these next couple months. Okay. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Stuart Lancaster. Stuart, how are you? Good, thank you. How are you? I'm doing fantastic. So it feels like an honor to be able to have this conversation with you because of all that you've done in your career and what you've come to understand. And so I just want to thank you

in advance for spending some time. No, no, it's a privilege and a pleasure. Awesome, thank you. Okay, so that being said, where would we start? Maybe it would be useful to give a quick overview of rugby and the landscape that you've been in for the last years and maybe we can just start there to give folks who might not know what rugby is about. Yeah okay so yeah I mean rugby is a worldwide sport really and clearly not quite as big in America but certainly in the northern hemisphere in Europe in particular, obviously Australia, New Zealand, South Africa,

very, very big sport. And to give some context, it's probably the Rugby World Cup is the third biggest sport event in the world. So you've got the Olympics, obviously you've got the Soccer World Cup, and then the Rugby World Cup is third in line. So it's a sport very similar to American football in lots of ways. And it's slightly different in that the players make a lot more decisions themselves on the field, but the contact and the physicality is very similar. You're dealing with a similar number of players, probably not quite as many as an American football team. And you would have slightly less coaches, but it would be similar. And, you know, the international games would be watched by, you know,

80 stadiums full of 80,000 people and, you know, 10, 12, 15, 20 million people on TV. So, you know, it's a big sport. It's a phenomenal sport as well. And when I think of rugged sports, it's one of the more rugged sports, you know, and steeped in history. That being said, what is it like for you as being one of the legendary coaches to be able to articulate like, hey, I know you Americans don't really understand it. Like, what is that like? Is there bitterness? Is there just like, hey, that's what it is?

What is that like for you? No, no, no, no. I mean, if anything, I want to try and use this as an opportunity to promote the sport, but also promote coaching and leadership in general. I've been lucky in that I've spent quite a lot of time in the USA and quite a lot of time in rugby teams over there trying to help them learn and develop. There's potentially an American team going to join the league that I'm in in a couple of years' time, which I think is going to be a very positive step for the sport in America. And I've spent some time in some American football teams as well. So to be able to take what I've learned from a rugby perspective into an American football team is really important, really.

And so I, you know, it was the Atlanta Falcons I spent time with predominantly. And it was to talk about tackling technique and how we tackle in rugby. Obviously, we don't have the pads or the the helmets you know we've got the shirt on and you know health and safety but also proper technique is very important in our sport so I was delighted to be asked to go in there and had a great a few days last last summer yeah is Dan Quinn I was fortunate to get to know for a while he's just a phenomenal human being yeah yeah I mean his uh his energy is incredible. And I met him at a leadership conference in Los Angeles, actually.

And we sat next to him and we were chatting away. He says, why don't you come over? So I did. And the first day I spent time speaking to the defense coaches. The next day it was similar, speaking to defense coaches and watching training. And then the third day he said, why don't you speak to the whole team about your experiences of being a coach of a big, big team, you know, a big national team. What it feels like to win games, lose games. You know, what are the margins of defeat and victory?

The leadership lessons that you learned. So, you know, to speak to what was 90 or so American football players who were a team that did phenomenally well last season. And the management team was a real privilege for me. And, um, uh, you know, I hugely enjoyed the opportunity.

Cool. And then do you have like general themes that you talk about, or was this, uh, bespoke and customized between you and coach Quinn? Um, well, I think it was all relevant to the, to the, to the team

or any team really. Um, so I guess, you know, if I was to share what I'd learned as a leader, um, you know, it would take forever. I love that. I know. That's what, that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you because I know you've come to understand a lot. And so, okay. If that, like, okay, I'm torn right now, because I want to go back and I want to get context. But I also want to jump right into the juicy stuff of what you've learned. So can you pardon my need for context quickly? And then can you shape some of your early history? And we don't need to get into too deep of the weeds. But I want to know, like, what was it like growing up? What were you like as a little kid? What was the family structure like?

And then what were the beginnings of the hunger for you to be able to become one of the best in your sport? So I just I'm craving that if you don't mind. Yeah, no, no, no, no. I mean, I think it's important. And because when I speak to leaders, you know, I think your leadership philosophy and what you believe in is shaped by your parents, by your family, by your experiences. And mine was, you know, by no means a smooth transition to the top by any stretch of my imagination. So I was, a quick summary, I was born on a farm. I lived on a farm in a place called Cumbria, which is in the Lake District in England, North England.

So growing up on a farm, can you paint that? Was it like a rural farm? Was it a working farm? Was it rough and rugged? Or was it like, you know, a high brow? What was the type of farm? No, no, it was a 360 acre farm with mainly dairy, cattle and sheep and beef. And it was farmed by my dad and these two other guys who

worked with him. So, you know, my dad started working on the farm when he was 16. You know, he was up early milking the cows and that was the life I was born into. And then, so he was working the farm, then one day bought the farm? No, it was his farm. He inherited it from his dad, my grandfather. Okay. It was a great upbringing. I mean, my brother was probably more inclined to be a farmer than me. I was more geared towards sport, but I really enjoyed my early years. I remember one specific time on the farm.

There was a disease called foot- mouth disease in in the uk and um it it wiped out a whole load of farms and all the cattle and all the herd um and it hit our farm so we lost we lost everything um and my dad had to uh to restock the farm you know he's seen all his all his all his work of his life you know destroyed really destroyed really. And, you know, the farm got shut down, got disinfected and cleaned. And then, you know, he restocked again. And it was a major, major thing back in 2000, actually. And I remember that being a significant time in my life when I saw my dad, you know, come under huge pressure and, you know, how much it hurt him.

So what did you, how much it hurt him so what did you how old were you at that time and then what were the the main lessons that you pulled through that well interestingly after after that uh after that time um you know my dad was you know a bit poorly and um you know it was it was the it was the pain of seeing him go through that, really, that, you know, hits you as a son. You know, I've got two of the brothers and a sister. I think we all understood the impact of foot and mouth on the family. And my dad restocked the farm. But by then he was, you know, I was probably 31, 30, 31 at that i just got i just got into coaching um so um i've been

teaching before then but i just got into coaching okay okay cool and then okay so it was more of an emotional connection to your dad as opposed to like okay now i see what i'm going to do differently or i'm going to do the same it was more of an emotional empathetic experience as a son yeah I think I was a lot of my philosophy or my work ethic would come from my dad I guess is the point I'm making okay he worked hard he worked hard you know from 16 years old on the farm and I I think, you know, I respected what he did and I ultimately feel that some of that rubbed off on me. So as a consequence, you know, I've always had a strong work ethic and I guess that's borne out the fact that the way I was brought up

and, you know, the role models I had. Okay. All right. And then what was it about your upbringing that led you down this path to be a world-class coach? I think it was – it didn't happen deliberately. It happened almost organically. So I did the sports science degree. Then I did what's called a PGCE, which is a conversion into a PE teacher.

So I became a physical education teacher in a local school in Wakefield. And I was a long, long way from being, you know, any form of international coach. But a series of events happened during my early, late 20s, early 30s. And it sort of shaped my career almost. You look back now, you think it was by accident, but maybe things happened for a reason. I don't know.

But, I mean, the first really was I got injured when I was playing. I was a rugby player as well as a teacher and I got injured. And that probably curtailed my career earlier than it would have done. And I got an opportunity to start coaching. And obviously being a teacher, you know, the natural progression from a teacher is into a coach because you're taught the fundamentals of how to communicate, how build relationships how to teach technique how to build teams and work with individuals um so the injury led me into coaching the academy at the club I was at uh and um I remember at the same time there was a there was another rugby club interested in me joining them

as a player coach and I was thinking well maybe I should hang my boots up and or maybe I should maybe should carry on playing anyway I decided in my wisdom to carry on playing but the day that um I was due to sign the contract as a player coach of this club my wife went into labor two weeks early with my first child Sophie and I cancelled the meeting uh and I said listen I can't come you know my wife's going into labour I'm gonna have to go to the hospital and then I came out of hospital having witnessed the birth of my daughter I thought there's absolutely no way I'm going to be able to commit to playing rugby coaching rugby being a PE teacher and being a father at the same time so so that you know if my wife had gone into into labour a day later or two days later,

I probably would have signed that contract and I'd have gone down a different route. But, you know, that happened. I didn't sign the contract. I became an academy coach full time. I hung my boots up from playing. And then I did five fantastic years coaching talented players from the ages of sort of 14 through to 20. I took over the academy at the club I played at and we had no academy. So I had to try and develop this system of developing talent within the area that I lived.

And because of my connections with the schools and everything else, we actually established the academy as the number one academy in the country. What was the name of this academy? Was this the number one academy in the country. What was the name of this academy? Was this the? It was called the Leeds Tigers Academy. It was in the middle of a county called Yorkshire. Yeah, okay.

And anyway, I was, by this stage, I was, I'd been on various courses and I'd gotten to a level five course in rugby, which is mainly about leadership and management as opposed to technical and tactical elements of coaching the game. And that really gave me the theory behind the practice of leadership. So that was a really interesting period. But just as I was 35 years old and I was beginning to think, you know, I want to step now into coaching adults. I want to step into full time coaching, you know, professionally in the professional game. And I was thinking about how I was going to do that.

And then the head coach of the club I was at resigned and we got relegated from the league we were in. We were in the top league, professional league, and we got relegated and no one really knew what to do. So the chief executive of the club said to me, you know, the coach has resigned. And I said, what's the plan? And he said, we haven't really got one.

And I said, well, why don't I, I'd like to do it. And it was quite a brave, it was a very brave thing to say for a very young coach. This is really good. So what, okay, were you prepared at that moment and you're waiting for an opportunity? Or did it just present itself and you somehow said, I'd like to try to get better, like, or I'd like to try to do this. Where was, if you can go back to that, that just that fraction of a second where you went for it, what was that about? No, I felt I was ready. I felt I was ready. I felt I'd done the work. I felt I had, I'd done my apprenticeship, so to speak, 10 years as a

teacher, five years as an academy coach. I'd studied leadership. I'd studied the game. And whilst I was still probably the youngest coach in the professional game at 35 years old, I felt I'd done the work and I felt I was ready for the challenge. You know, it was my club. I knew the club inside out. I felt I could contribute in a positive way.

And I guess whenever I've been put in a situation where there's been a challenge ahead of me, I've always put myself up there to think, right, I'm going to have a crack at this. And, you know, I don't want to come and finish with any regrets, really, where I felt I could have tried something and not have the confidence to do it. So I went for it, but it was a brave decision

because obviously the security of being an academy coach was changed to be a head coach. And the challenge was the team had been relegated and all the players had left. So there was only seven players left and we had to get promoted back into the league and we'd be relegated for the first time because you get a parachute payment.

And obviously if you don't do it first time, you lose the money. And therefore everyone, literally the club will fold shut down people will lose the jobs physios will lose the jobs conditioners um and uh so we had 30 games in that season and the first game we lost so it wasn't the greatest start my coaching career um but um then we lost the third game um so by then we were left with the probably about 26 games and we had to win in my mind probably 24 out of 26 anyway um we did it and we got promoted and uh uh you know the sense of uh elation and joy that i had for all the people in the organization you know it still ranks as one

of the best best times of my career and uh I really really really really appreciated everyone's support at that point you know and um my wife was away actually unfortunately she missed the moment and the kids they were away but um uh we got promoted but then we were back in the big time you know back in the in the big boys league and we were doing it we were then doing it with a a budget it was probably half of what everyone else had so i went from that season of winning a lot of games to the following season of not winning many games and also during that time i got approached by the union the rugby football union so basically the governing body to see if I was interested in doing one of the national jobs. So put yourself in my position.

I was a young coach. I was trying to hold the team together in a difficult position in that we'd been in this very competitive league and we're a young team and not a lot of money and we're losing games. I'm loyal to the club, but then the opportunity comes up to take myself to a position that's going to be better for me professionally,

but actually goes against everything that I'm feeling inside where I want to stay and help the team. And it absolutely tore me in two, to be honest, more so than any other decision I've made in my life where I was completely undecided what to do. My heart was saying, stay at the club, but my head was telling me, you've got to take this opportunity because you might never get another chance to work on a national scale again.

Yeah. So how did you go through that decision-making process? Well, I probably made my mind up to stay at the club, to be honest. But I spoke to the captain. The captain is a player who is a very experienced leader and a very good player. He was about a 30-year-old, 31. And he pulled me aside. He said, listen, Stuart, we're aware of the rumors of you being offered this role. And just so you know, for me as captain of the team and for the rest of the team, we feel you should take the opportunity because it's too good to want to turn down for

you personally so we know what you're like we know you know you probably want to stay but we we feel and I feel in particular as captain I think you should take the opportunity and um and that probably tipped the balance in the other way and and so I did and I took the opportunity um and I left the club at the end that year, which again was heartbreaking really. But it did lead on to the opportunities that then presented themselves. From then I was 37 years old over the next 10 years of my life, which is to where I am now. Which is at one point coaching the national team.

Well, yeah mean the story there you know sort of is very similar in in that regard so the job of the national team was to with the national um governing body was to run all the academy programs in the country in england and or and support all the international age grade teams so you'd have an england under 16s england under 18s england under 20s team and everything else, a women's team, a sevens team. So that was my job to coordinate and run all that. And I guess if you used to divide my job up at that period, you know, I always look at my roles as leadership, coaching and management. And it was less coaching, less hands-on coaching the team, more leadership and more management, and certainly probably more management than leadership.

So it was a great four years, and I actually got the opportunity to coach the England Saxons team, which is the England A team, the second team, if you like, where the young players will come through and they're the future international players. So I really enjoyed that. But again, just at around 41 years old, I was just beginning to think, I need to go and coach more more find a job in a professional team and coach more and um exactly the same thing happened the head coach of the national team

resigned um in the same way that the leads the leads coach had resigned and there wasn't really a a plan so i um went to the board and said i said why, why don't I become the interim coach? And so I became the interim. So they agreed. I became the interim coach of the national team of England. And we had five games against France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy. And at the time, the union was probably in a state of change. And there was a young group of players coming through.

So I took a big step and changed a lot of the senior players for a lot of younger players with a view to building the team for the long term. And realizing that, you know, we would lack experience, but we would make up for it in talent and character and ability, really. But it was, and in my mind, you know, by that point, the union were having a worldwide search to find the next head coach. And I wasn't really contemplating staying on in the interim role. But the longer those five games were in turn, the more successful the team played and the energy behind the team grew and the country got behind the young players and we won four games out of five.

So I ended up applying for the main job and got it on interview. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday.

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And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So how do you pull teams together so i'm thinking about the two themes that you just shared one was um you know we we had to win 25 out of 26 games or some outrageous number like that after losing the first game this is back at your first your first stint and then here like having to win four out of five, like how do you pull? And then a group of men saying, coming together and saying, hey, listen, we know who you are.

And we collectively as a voice, we think that you should move on. Like you should go take the bigger job. So how do you pull people together that really seem to also have a spirit about them? I guess the first thing is to, or for me, was to give them a real reason why we're all going to work hard together. You know, I try and paint a picture of what the future is going to look like for the team and paint it in such detail that the players draw together.

I mean, coaching a national team, obviously the players come, it's a bit like, I guess, if there was an American national team from all the American football teams, it's like getting all the best players from each club and put them into one team. And so doing that for rugby was a real challenge. But I focused on the reason why playing for England was special and why playing for your country was special. And I tried to emphasise to the players the importance of understanding they represented the country and it was about giving something back

to the rugby fans of the country. And I did all sorts of little things. I mean, one which was probably the most effective or one of the most effective, was I wrote to the parents of the players without them knowing. I asked them to write back to me and say, what does it mean to see your son play for England? I also asked the parents to write to five people who'd helped their son become that England player

and what it meant to them. And, you know, it could range from the grandfather, the girlfriend, the primary school teacher, the academy coach. So without knowing it, the players, I collated these unbelievably powerful statements about the pride that people had in these players who'd reached the pinnacle of their sport.

And we went out for a meal the first week of the camp. So we had a camp, my first week in charge. And we had three guest speakers that evening. We had someone who had played soccer for England, who spoke to the team. We had someone who played rugby league, a different sport, speak to the team. And we had a guy who'd fought for his country,

speak to the team, support him, he'd been to Afghanistan and he was very inspirational as well. And so, and after that, I said to the players, there's just one other thing I want to finish the night with. And I've got an envelope here for each of you individually signed

and I've written to your parents and I could see all the players look as if to say, you've done what? And I've said, and I've asked them to articulate what it means to them to see you play in this team. Anyway, slowly, one by one, during the course of the evening,

I saw the boys receive their envelopes and open them up and read them. And the powerful messages that they received and the emotion it had on them. You know, can you create a culture in a week? I'm not sure you can, but I think we went a long way to moving the players to being what a really strong team would be in a night, never mind a week. So you don't know this about me, but I measure success throughout a day or I capture success throughout a day. It's like how many times my hair stands up and I get goosebumps. It's the science of awe, the applied science of awe. And you just gave me one,

you know, cause I can imagine in my head right now and imagining guys going, what the, you know, and, and then opening these letters, like, Oh my God, what am I going to see? And then one after another, like four, three, four or five letters from loved ones saying, Hey, this is, this is who you are. This is what it means to us. We're so proud of you. We're this, that, and the other. And for them to look at it and be like, wow, but then, but not, but, and what did you do? You kept them in the, in the room, right? Where everyone was reading it. So there was quiet time essentially. Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, there was, we, we, we sort of finished the, finished the evening. I showed a motivational video about where I thought we could go as a group.

And then, you know, we just had some time just to sort of, you know, circulate around and have a chat and, you know, get ready. The bus was taking us back to the team hotel. And something else happened that evening, which probably was the wow moment for me. And my secretary came up to me and she gave me an envelope. And she said, oh, I was running around trying to organize all the players back on the bus and, you know, make sure everything, the evening went well.

You know, it was a big evening. And anyway, I didn't get back to my hotel room until about half one in the morning. And I thought, what was that thing that Nadine gave me? And I opened it up and my wife had done the same for me without me knowing. No. it up and my wife had done the same for me without me knowing no so she she she had contacted all my school friends all my college friends um all all the people i played rugby with through the years to say this is what it means to us to see you coaching the national team uh and that was unbelievable what was that like yeah what was that like for you? Well, it was unbelievable.

I'd still, you know, it's still, I've just had the hairs on the back of my neck moment again, you know, just thinking about it. It was, there were so many special times when you're representing your country, but when you're the national coach of your country, you know, you can't put into words, what does it feel like to sing the national anthem

when you're the head coach of the team? What does it feel like to be responsible for the team, you know, when they're winning big international games against quality opposition and the country are behind you but also what does it feel like as a coach when you're when you lose and um you know when things don't go well and when you're in charge of the national team and the sense of responsibility um you know that i felt and, you know, so I put myself into a position whereby, you know, the defeat and victory of a particular game had huge, huge significance and consequences for a whole variety of people,

but myself included. And, you know, I remember when I got offered the job full time and it was the, I mean, obviously this is, I guess, gets the crux of the story really, because I was appointed full time in March 2012. And it was the lead up to the World Cup, the World Cup's every four years. And it was in England, of all places, in 2015. So I was then appointed as the head coach of the England national team in the lead up to a home World Cup. And I had obviously this young team to prepare and get ready for this tournament where we were the host nation.

How do you manage or deal with the egos, the collective egos from extreme talents? I don't think we have that many, to be honest. I mean, we definitely had talented players, but I couldn't really fault the players' attitude, their behaviors, their character, their integrity. You know, there were very few, to be honest, if there was anyone who was probably inclined to be that way and not be a team player and not contribute positively to the team, they were either found out or they changed their behaviour

because they could see the majority of the players were going in a certain direction and they, you know, they inevitably wanted to be on the bus. So, yeah, I guess it's you know it's it's not as high profile as say soccer in england and and certainly players aren't that well paid so there's not the sort of i think sometimes you know perhaps money can change people's perception of reality but there was never that in rugby um in england certainly not with the players i coached yeah i i was recently over in the uk touring a couple clubs you know and ran into a couple people that i know that you know really well like graham roundtree you know over at uh harlequins yeah so they were they bring us they brought us in to understand their culture and it's exactly what you just described you know and i'm it feels as though

that rugby has kept its roots in ruggedness and brotherhood and togetherness and you know for the shirt so that you know is the phrase that they like to say and uh yeah it feels like and that's still true at the national level as well yeah yeah 100 yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, Graham Roundtree was one of the guys who was on my coaching team. And I was fortunate that the people who were in my coaching team were very like-minded individuals as well. So I think we were a strong team together, albeit we were a young coaching team. I imagine just the brief interactions I had with Graham, I bet you had a phenomenal time coaching with him. Yeah, he's a big character and very charismatic. And Andy Farrell and Mike Catt, the other two coaches,

they were very, very similar as well. So, you know, it was a very enjoyable time, but equally a very high-pressure time. You know what I mean? I wouldn't say stressful, but it was certainly high certainly certainly high pressure okay so i i want to i'd love to dissect that and i'd also love to know where it came from for you where where the thought was first born where you wanted to go as players loved ones what it meant for them to be on the team where did that thought come from? The thought came when one of my academy players, who subsequently left the academy program and ultimately left the club I was at and run out Twickenham and the sense of pride I had in him and, you know, playing a very small part in his development. I remember thinking to myself, God, if I feel like this, what does, how do his parents feel? How do his,

you know, grandfather feel? How does his girlfriend feel? How does his primary school teacher feel? And so it was that, it was really that did it um and uh i always kept that thought in my mind uh and i thought i wonder if we can get what what it feels to people articulated down on paper it'll be a very powerful way of describing to people driving to the players exactly what it means because to the players they're just they're doing the day job you know i mean they're they're they're good players they're talented players i think sometimes you need to take a step back and remind them of this is a really big deal for a lot of people particularly for those who care about you that's brilliant okay and then can you dissect the difference between stress and pressure for you you said it was a pressure

filled environment or year but not necessarily stressful, what is the difference in those two words for you? Um, yeah, I probably shied away from using the words stressful because I think it was, you know, it's a brilliant job to coach a country. It's a huge privilege. And, you know, it implies that, um, you know, it's not an enjoyable job being stressful. You know what I mean? I think pressurized, that's why I shied away from using the word. I think, I think I've, you know, when you push me, I think, I think, I think, you know, I don think pressurized that's why i shied away from using the word i think i think i've you know when you push me i think i think i think you know i don't want to appear that i was in any way um not enjoying the job you know i i love doing the job and it's it's hard to articulate as i say you know to what it means to coach your own country um and be the head of it so so it's pressure really stress you know stress for me you know describes something a slightly different emotion okay and then you've lost and you

understand loss and public loss so how have you managed that and maybe you can bring us into a time or particular event that that captures your experience on how you have personally dealt with it and then how you message that and share that with your teammates? Well, I mean, I guess I'll have to bring the story up to date because, you know, people from the U.S. wouldn't know the story. So the seasons 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 in the lead up to the World Cup were more victories than defeats, fortunately. You know, we won probably 70% of our games. We had some momentous victories against New Zealand and France and Australia.

But we lost some big games by small margins. And in the championship that we play in the Six Nations, we came second on four occasions by the smallest of margins. One year we got beaten fair and square, but the rest of the time it was by the smallest of margins. So we went into the World Cup without having that championship victory, if you like, in the back pocket um and then obviously the world cup came and you know the pressure of being the host nation um was was was

upon us and we were in what was called the pool of death so it was uh just the way the draw had fell we ended up with wales and australia in our pool um along with um uray and Fiji. And only two of those teams were going to qualify from the pool. And unfortunately for us, and me in particular, I guess everyone, we were beating Wales in a game 22-12, and we ended up losing the game 28-25 in the last few moments. So a game we should have won, really. We lost. And then the following week, we lost the game against Australia, which would have qualified us for the quarterfinals. So then I was in charge of the team

that hadn't made it out of the pool stages. And we also had another week to go. So obviously I was – and we also had another week to go. So, you know, obviously I was facing the press. It's a bit like, I guess, losing the Super Bowl but having another week, another game in the following week. So, you know, I fronted the media. We dealt with the fallout as best I could. We won the last game.

But by then, obviously, we were out of the tournament. And, you know, to say, you know, it was on my head, it would be an understatement. It was all on my head, really, you know. And so there was a review commissioned into the World Cup, and I left my role a month after as national coach. So then what do you do you know you're that you're then you're then in a position where you are a uh you know a national coach who's lost his job and you know i can carry on i can bring it to speed to where i am now or

can pause there and ask some questions about that if you want yeah you know if you don't mind um yeah you know i'd love to know how you think about winning and how you think about losing and that'll set some of the philosophy on how you kind of move through you know the the public loss of winning you know something that you're the whole country was was banking on that you were going to win or do really well so like i just like to know how you think about winning and losing and in general um i've always been a big big believer in um i guess bill walsh is a big influence on me you know i never met him but he wrote the book the score will take care of itself um the san francisco sport the ninth coach and you know if i was to um look at what i was trying to do with the England team. It was very similar to what he did with the 49ers.

And I think trusting that if you get all the component pieces right, then ultimately your team will go on to win. And I always kept with that. So trying to keep perspective on the wins, but also keeping balance on the losses and understand that we were developing a team for the long term and that the successes would come so that became

harder to hold on to the closer it got to the World Cup and obviously the pressure of not having nailed those championship wins and obviously during the World Cup and obviously the pressure of not having nailed those championship wins and obviously during the World Cup itself you know that philosophy counted for very little because it became just down to winning and losing and you know I wouldn't say 15 minutes changed everything but you know if we'd have probably drawn the game or certainly won the game against Wales that we were winning with 15 minutes to go then I probably would still be coaching England so you can't help but think that um you know

defeat and victory sets a narrative in a chain of events that becomes very hard to to stop and also you know I was very conscious and aware of the impact it was having on my family um my parents my wife my kids um and so it's impossible to say in my mind it's impossible to say it's not a big thing defeating victory at that level it is a big thing it's a big thing to a lot of people and but it's very hard and i needed to take myself away after that after that period on my own uh and and try and rationalize it and think it all through in order that i could at least emerge from the experience a better coach. And then what is it that you've learned through going through that pain?

Well, just to bring the story up to the present day, just so people are aware. So I finished in November 2015. I took myself away to the Southern Hem hemisphere in particular um and i coached um teams in new zealand and i've visited south africa and australia i spent a lot of time on my own just you know thinking things through my the immediate aftermath of the world cup i went to my parents house went back to the farm actually and um they uh they put a caravan in a in a in a little caravan site in the middle of the lake district and i I walked up a few mountains and thought things through. And then I had this period of travel.

And then I did some work coaching at grassroots level again. And I did some work in America, as I've said, and met other coaches who'd been through the same experience or similar experiences, which was quite reassuring that they were still coaching. And then ultimately I got a call. I didn't expect that that's funny I got a call from a club in Ireland called Leinster who are a big European club and they said would you like to come and join us as part of our coaching team and so I did that in September last year and I'm still here now. And I've just re-signed for another two years.

So I will certainly commit to the team I'm with at the moment for the next two years. And then, you know, by then I'll be 49, 50. The kids will be at university, just tend to university and we'll see what happens. So that's where I am now. But in terms of, you know, what did I learn? Yeah, take me back to a moment or moments in time that capture when you're back at the farm or you're climbing mountains or spending time by yourself. Like what were the insights and what was the process to get to those

insights? I guess the first thing was I needed time on my own and I needed to think through my decision making and think through the order of events that had happened and whether I could have done more to control the outcome. Rugby is slightly different

from American football in that the rugby coach, in American football, a lot of the plays are called by, you know, the coaching team is my perception. That's totally accurate. Yeah, whereas in rugby,

all the decisions are made on the field by the by the players there's no break in play to allow you to or very very little break in play to allow you to actually try and influence the game once it started but clearly the things that i could have done in the lead up to it i think one of the things that i've probably reflected on is if i go back to that dividing my role between leadership coaching and management i was brought up as a PE teacher I was brought up as a coach and I would spend my time on the field in a tracksuit coaching and I guess such was the size of the England job and the complexity of it my role probably gravitated more to a leader leader and managerial role than coaching and I made myself a promise that whatever job I took next I would

be back on the field coaching the team rather than just being the guy managing the team um because ultimately that's where you're ultimately accountable so that's not to say you know the coaches didn't do a great job they did a fantastic job but ultimately it's where my passion was and I you know having put put myself through the um the challenges that I'd done, what I wanted to do was go back to what I had to think to myself. What do I really enjoy doing? What is my passion? You know, what do I really – what gets me out of bed in the morning, gets me excited? What would I – you know, where is my enjoyment in life and my purpose?

And it's coaching. And so that's what I did. And so I so that's what I did. And so I learned that, I learned that, you know, I also learned, you know, a lot about myself and how I dealt with the pressure and, and how, how I tried to still lead in adversity and manage a very difficult situation, but retain my integrity and not allow the, the emotion of the whole thing to outweigh my decision-making and the way I came across to people, both publicly and privately in the team.

And ultimately, I felt I had to take responsibility. It was on my watch. I was actually interested. I look at a lot of sports. I look at American football in particular. I look at Pete Carroll and Seattle Seahawks and the games that they played. I look at Dan Quinn this time in the Super Bowl, how they were winning and lost.

I admire the courage of those coaches that could withstand the disappointment and then come back and go again. Now, did I have the strength to do that? I think possibly if the people who'd done the review had turned around and said, you know what, you're our man, that would have helped. But it wasn't quite as black and white as that. So as a consequence, it was a very short turnaround before the decision was made after the emotion of the World Cup.

And I guess I looked at the people close to me and how much they were suffering. And I thought to myself, do I really want to put them through this again? Jeez. Okay. And then when you left, was it embarrassment? Was it humility? Was it humbleness? Was it gratitude for the opportunity? Was it an immediate kind of strike that I want to go search and excitement? Like, what was it when you got canned or let go or fired or whatever that phrase is? Devastation.

Devastation. So it was. So it was like an overwhelming... Yeah. I mean, I felt a huge sense of responsibility. You know, it was... The young team had grown and the nation had got behind the team and it was a home World Cup and the energy behind the team was fantastic. I mean, just to put a postscript as well, the team have gone on to be successful.

You know, new coaches come in and they've won consistently. And, you know, I'm delighted for them because they felt the same pain as I did. You know,

the captain did, you know, the senior players did. And, you know, I'm delighted they've gone on to be successful. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. But as head coach, yeah, I mean, I was, you know, you know, I consider myself reasonably strong and grounded and, you know, mentally, but it was tough. It was very tough. Very tough.

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Is there a phrase or word that guides your life? And this is like, do you have a anchored philosophy that you work from? Not really. No, I mean, I just, I just think, you know, if you work hard enough for long, long enough, and you do it in the right way, then I think you should get, you know, you get, you get not your rewards, but you know, you will be able to not be successful either because it's not about being successful. It's about trying to inspire people and trying to leave a mark. I don't want to get one shot at it. I want to leave a mark where I feel like I've made a difference

to someone or something along the way. I guess it comes back to being a teacher. You're teaching kids in a school, and some of them are on the straight and narrow and they're on a path. And you can see them, they're going to head to university, they're going to be successful in life. But there's another group of kids that you teach that, you know, around 14, 15 years old, they've got outside influences. They've got decisions to make about whether they should or shouldn't do good or bad things. And, you know, I always gravitated to those kids and wanted to try and change their course of direction to make a difference to them. And I think that's the overriding philosophy I'd like to try and maintain going forward, you know, even though the role I've got now is significantly different from being a national coach.

Okay. And then how do you help younger people or people in general? And I'm thinking about the athletes that you coach in an open sport, meaning that there's very little play calling or if any play calling or direction coming from coaches, how do you help them make extraordinary decisions and to adapt at the best possible way to access the best version of themselves. Yeah, I mean, it's tough. I mean, I think the way in which you review their performance and if you are open and honest with them as a coach and you accept responsibility for the things, you could have done better if the game maybe hasn't won the game. And you're not too hard on them when they've tried something and it's not worked out. I think it breeds a sense of openness and trust between't won the game. And you're not too hard on them when they've tried something and it's not worked out. I think it breeds a sense of openness and trust between you and the players.

And I think that's the start point. You've got to have trust between you and the players. I think the way in which you train, the way in which you condition them during the course of the week and the lead up to a game has a big bearing on how they deal with the game. I think experience is a big factor. It's something, as a coach coach you really can't control. You know, you've just got to try and support them through the tough times.

And I think that you try and pass on your experiences of environments you've been in and situations that have happened to you or teams that you've coached, which allows them to help them and deal with something that happens, you know, in the course of a of a random game like rugby where you know 101 different things can happen at the same time and also you know you've got to respect the players because they're the ones they're the they're the ones who go into the arena they're the ones who who put their bodies on the line you know they're the ones who um you know take the hits and uh and they've got to make decisions under that type of pressure.

I mean, I have a huge amount of respect for them. So I think a respect for the players helps grow that sense of trust that we're all in it together. Okay. And then, you know, if we think about our inner experience, the inner critic, and I want to get to the the process of insight for you but how do you deal with that inner critic when the voice inside says you don't have what it takes you blew it you made a mistake you you shouldn't have you couldn't do this again in the future and i'm not saying that that's your voice i'm saying that's all of our voices how do you manage that self-doubt inner critic that sometimes overly critical voice inside of your head?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think I probably spend a lot of time on my own reflecting on, you know, I'm being honest with myself about what I could have, couldn't have done better in any particular situation. You know, I think one thing I was in in leadership was to be self-aware you know you learn learn about yourself first before you start to learn about leading other people and i think it was great advice so you know i've had some great feedback along the way and i've done as many psychometric profiles as you'd probably care to to think about and you, so I've got a reasonable insight into my own personality. And then that allows me then to reflect.

I also would go, I'd have mentors and trusted people who I would turn to for feedback and advice. I would never be too precious. It didn't have to be positive all the time. You know, I wasn't too precious about it being negative um or an area I could do better you know I would be um you know I'll be open-minded to feedback so so as consequence with that inside me I would yeah I would take the lessons and I would I would move on um because I know that dragging around failure forever, you know, is only going to end in one thing.

And that's, you know, going to be a downward slide really. And one of the coaches said to me, failure only defeats you if you let it. And I thought it was a great quote. And, you know, once I'd taken the lessons and dusted myself off and thought, right, can I get back on the horse again? I looked at other coaches and thought, well, they've done it you know i can i can do it again and um but it wasn't easy it wasn't easy yeah so i i'm getting a picture that you front-loaded insight and the way you did that as you took a bunch of tests but um but more than that it's it feels

like you valued self-awareness so you would pay attention to your inner experience. And then when, yeah, then when you got, um, you know, uh, when you reached a point of pain in your life, you didn't retreat. That's not the right word, but you went away to be able to have a deeper dive. So you weren't kind of onto the next girl, onto the next date, onto the next, whatever is so common for so many young men, right? And so you went into the mountains and to the hills and whatever. And I'm getting that you haven't said it, so I don't think you've done this part, but it doesn't sound like you went to pen and paper. It sounds like you went on walks and you would listen to yourself

and then you would go and have conversations with others. So it feels like it's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a bit of pen and paper as well, though. There was, okay. Yeah, yeah. So I've put down, actually, you know, the 50... Yeah, I've actually got it on a PowerPoint slides or slides, actually. You know, what reflections did I take out the whole process? And actually, no one's ever seen it.

It's just out there but it was part of the process I think I didn't realize at the time but when I went on this sort of journey around the southern hemisphere you know my wife said to me you know you need to go and um so you spend a lot of time in airports or in planes or you know you might you might see a coaching team for I don't know three or four hours in a day but the rest of the day you're on your own and you know obviously no one knows you in the middle of New Zealand or Australia um so that was probably the time you know in the early maybe two months after the World Cup had finished um um but probably the immediate process was that pen to paper thing you just described as well as

the thinking time as well but yeah that'd be fair to say I did some pen and paper stuff. And then would you just write or were there central questions that you're trying to sort out? Yeah, yeah, no, I wouldn't write a diary of my events, if you like, but it'd be more like bullet points of what I've learned. And yeah, what I've learned. And yeah, what I've learned. And ultimately what,

I guess what, what, what I've done subsequently is I've spent a bit of time sharing what I've learned to other coaches because, so I wanted to articulate, I wanted to try and capture it and articulate it so other coaches could learn from, I mean,

you know, let's, the whole of my career, not just the one moment in the World Cup, because there were great moments along the way. And there's been great moments this season. So, you know, it's articulating everything, but also people want to know, you know, what you learned from failure. I think often as coaches, coaches get put up in front of, you know, other leaders and they get asked to talk about their successes. But I think the most powerful lessons I've listened to are the ones who come from coaches who've had failure on the way and bounce back. Yeah. And, you know, for me being able to say, I've, you know, experienced a lot of mistakes and I've experienced pain myself that it feels like I can trust myself more

because I've also figured out how to get through it. And so it's with that arc of in the journey that it gives me and others the right to be able to say, okay, well, I can trust myself to get through things. So then I can live a little bit more freely where if I haven't been kicked in the teeth yet before I got kicked in the teeth, I should say that I didn't really know if I'd be okay on the other side of whatever and I'm wondering if that's if you can relate to that yeah you can yeah yeah yeah 100% and um uh yeah I mean I've yeah I certainly feel I've come out the other side uh and um yeah I know that the the situation I was in probably my coaching career won't be repeated in terms of that intensity and stress. I said the word again,

pressure. And so yeah, I'm still coaching. And I still care about coaching. And I'm, you know, 47 years old. I've got years to go hopefully oh yeah for sure so can you share some of those would you be open to share I'd love to hear kind of what you formally are talking about for leadership principles or what you've experienced like are there some things there that you can you can riff on very broadly I guess if I was to put into two or three examples, I would say the first thing is to build a long-term high-performing team. I believe that culture comes before performance,

not the other way around. I don't think you get high performance consistently if you don't have a strong culture. And the way I tried to build the England team from a new team being brought together, if you like, was if you imagine a pyramid, the base layer of the pyramid being culture. The second layer was the identity of the team. So the first year, if you like, as well as the technical and tactical aspects of the game, I was trying to develop the culture and get the culture right and the right behaviors and values in the team. Then we talked a lot more in the second year about the identity, the identity and what it means to play for England.

What does representing your country mean? What does it mean to be English? The history of England, the history of the shirt, where we'd want to take the shirt and leave a legacy in the future. And then the third layer was a higher purpose. So, you know, obviously winning the World Cup was the goal. But, you know, someone had said to me, you know, it was a different sporting team. And they said our goal was to become number one in the world.

Anyway, they achieved it. And once they'd achieved it, they downed the tools and enjoyed the moment. And before long, they were fifth in the world again. And he basically said to me, he said, you know, there is something about having the immediate goal of the next trophy, but there is something also about a higher purpose. And I think ours were things like, you know, wanting to have a culture and identity that ran deep through the organization. So all the way from the England team through to grassroots rugby, to have a long term high performing team, not something that just went to success in 2015 and then we had no plan for 2016. And to be respected in world sport. So I think, you know, they were the things

that we sort of built a higher purpose on. And then beyond that, we had behaviours and standards. Then ultimately, the peak, well, getting towards the peak of the pyramid was ownership by the players. So the players ultimately began to own the the shirt and the the identity and the culture and ultimately then the final place the jigsaw is the players player-led leadership where ultimately we want the players to be in charge of it all and you know the best model in rugby is the is the new zealand rugby team um who who successfully managed to adopt a model similar to that and and they are the number one one of the number one sporting teams in the world for a reason.

And so that'll be one of the things I would say that, let's say the planning thing, having a long-term plan, they'd be the main tenants I would try and build any team I was involved in on. Okay, brilliant. And then, and you've also shared also shared you know obviously a methodology that used to bring people together you know to be able to articulate uh why it matters and where you're going to go is kind of a second story but okay so of all the mental skills being calm being confident you know deep focus in the present moment imagining future success what do you think is the most important for people to begin to develop are you talking coaches are you talking

players are you talking yeah i'm thinking humans yeah i'm thinking humans yeah but you can certainly think about like athletes if you will um geez god that's a big question isn't it it is isn't it i know like where would you start if you had a highly talented, ambitious kid or young, young kid, you know, and would you want to help them be calm? Would you want to help them grow the confidence? I know you want all of these. Yeah. Teach them how to deeply focus. I'll start with self-awareness.

I'll get them to understand themselves first um and i think um then you can then start layering on the the tenets of self-belief um of confidence of composure under pressure of resilience um of mental strength and um you know all all those things but i think unless you understand yourself first then i think that that's the start point um and then you can start um growing all those those things around your awareness of your own personality of your own strengths and weaknesses the areas you'd like to develop in yourself. And, you know, understand that there's no right or wrong way. You know, there's no – you don't have to follow someone else.

Just be yourself. You know, there are lots of coaches who are very different to me and I'm sure would have coached the national team differently or would coach Leinster differently as I'm coaching now. But you can only be who you are. And, you know, you've got to have the strength of character and personality to be that person and not to be influenced by others. And you can only do that if you have, you know, strong anchors that are built on your, you know, a lot of where you've come from, I guess, as a person.

But it's a lot about who you are. God, I love that. Okay. Super insightful that it begins with awareness. I couldn't agree more. I'm nodding my head on the other side going, yes. And I didn't have that in my life. I didn't know that that was the order to start. And I started with performance first. And I was completely twisted upside down as a youngster. It was actually the reason why I was attracted to this field of, you know, sport performance psychology, because it was all about performance early on, you know, get better, get better, get better, um, for some sort of return later at a contest. And then the

contest was coming and I didn't have the foundation. And so I love what you're doing, you know, what you're just said there. So listen, Stuart, I feel like you've given so much in this conversation. I hope that I've been able to, like I've given you enough space or whatever to represent yourself because I feel like I understand your framework better. And I don't know if there's anything left that like really captures your spirit or the essence of what you come to understand but um i just want to before before we begin to wrap i just want to say thank you no no thank you it's um it's it's tough talking about it you know um not not just talking just thinking about the whole, the whole thing really. Um, and, uh, but it's actually quite therapeutic as well. Um, and so I've enjoyed it and it's been, you know, I was joking when I said,

it's the most challenging interview, but you've asked some really insightful questions which allow me to give a bit of an insight back. And I hope that people who've never met me get a chance to listen and think, you know what, um, that was quite interesting and the stuff I can take from that because that's the point isn't it you just want to help it is yeah um people to get better yeah and i think that like you know you've been in some trenches and some foxholes and i want to know what it's like what you've learned by being in those not just what the experience was

about being not the story of being in the foxhole but what you came to understand from it and where those inspirations or insights came from and yeah i feel it feels really good now last kind of big banger is how do you think about or define or articulate mastery geez um well i think obviously mastery must mastery in my profession, really, coaching, would be having not just the knowledge of coaching. So I think a lot of coaches I've met have got the knowledge of coaching, the technical and tactical knowledge to coach rugby or rugby football or soccer or whatever it is. But they've also got, so they've got the technical knowledge, but they've also got the skills to apply that and to get it across in a way that motivates young men and women to be the best they can be. And I think mastering the art of coaching is very, very elusive.

And I know some fantastic coaches in the art of coaching is very, very elusive. While some fantastic coaches in the world of sport, I don't think any of us would ever say we've mastered it, and I'm certainly a long, long way from doing it. But I think mastery for me is just the comprehensive knowledge or skills in coaching. Love that. And then I know you're going to be over in the state soon uh i hope that you know i don't think we'll be in the same cities but if you ever want to punch up

to seattle um you know uh love to have you and and you know pull pull back the curtain and show you what we're up to as well oh no i mean i would love that i mean i think let's say i've got i'm across in um chicago um for doing a a talk a talk there, which I'm looking forward to. Obviously, I'm going to Atlanta. And as I mentioned to you, I've set up that online leadership club. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So tell us about that.

Tell us about the leadership club that you've put together. It's quite interesting. didn't um so i was asked um by uh not a company it was a company i guess to say you know would you be prepared to um put your leadership thoughts um online so basically what i've done is i've created um a leadership club where i've put together six modules um on leadership and uh you know they they range um from all the things we've talked about to be honest um and uh you know, they range from all the things we've talked about, to be honest. And, you know, people can then log in and access the content. So things like connecting teams and extending your vision to the team. How do you maximize energy for the greatest connection?

How do you, what are 10 leadership qualities of those that connect well, how do you develop your credibility as a leader, how do you build your leadership philosophy, what is emotional intelligence, understanding the six leadership styles, how teams are built, what are the dysfunctions of teams, etc., etc. So I put them together in like six modules, and then people can log on and access um the stuff online and just listen to me basically talking about the things i've learned um and uh then i'm

going to put together four webinars where people hopefully leaders from around the world can can get online and send me through what they want to explore more and, and, and we can talk about it. So, um, Okay. So where, where, yeah, brilliant. Where can we find it? So it's, um, www.stuartlancaster.com. Brilliant. I'll help. Yeah. We'll, we'll help amplify, um, for sure. So yeah, Stuart is S-T-U-A-R-T for folks and then Lancaster, like it sounds. Yeah, good. Okay. Congratulations. I love it. And then, you know, if there's anything that we can do, do you have a social media handle as well? No, no, no. I'm steering clear of social media. I probably need to get into the 21st century, but I'm not quite there yet okay brilliant okay so i wish you the

best success with that i know there's so much that you have within and your deep desire to share those insights with many at scale so i hope if there's anything seriously that i can do to help amplify and celebrate um happy to and so stewart thank you no thank you michael yeah for sure and those that are still listening if you enjoyed enjoyed this, please write a review on iTunes under Finding Mastery. It'll help celebrate the insights from Stuart, as well as other coaches and performers on the world stage. And then find us on social, which is on Instagram, Finding Mastery, and on Twitter at Michael

Gervais. We also have a community. I don't know if you know about this, Stuart, but we have a community on Facebook. And you can find it on, or folks can find it on findingmastery.net. And there's this unbelievable tribe of people that are supporting and challenging each other on their path of mastery. And it's phenomenal. So it's been really fun. Yeah, it's been really good.

And then, yeah, that's pretty much it we're going to take your insights as well stewart and then we've got a second little uh gem of a podcast called minutes on mastery so people will get like sent right to their home if they subscribe to that uh under two minute pearls of wisdom from the legendary stewart lancaster yeah it's so well i'm not sure put me as legendary but uh no i've enjoyed i've enjoyed speaking to you and um i hope i say people people enjoy also yeah thank you very much no problem okay take care cheers All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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