Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Ryan Holiday: Do the Right Thing, Right Now| Stoic Practices For Your Daily Life

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

Our guest today is back for the third time – and with Ryan Holiday, each conversation seems to be better than the last.For those who aren’t familiar, Ryan is a bestselling author, host of the Daily Stoic podcast, and a thought leader who has become a leading advocate for modern Stoicism. For years now, Ryan has been on a journey to reveal how the teachings of ancient Stoic philosophers can integrate into our modern lives.We’re here today to discuss his latest book, "Right Thing, Right Now" – which emphasizes the virtue of justice, and challenges us all to live ethically and authentically, with purpose.Ryan’s ability to turn ancient philosophical concepts into practical advice make his work a unique asset for leaders and high performers in any field. In this episode, we discuss how the principles of Stoicism support compassion and empathy, the importance of open dialogue, and the balance between authenticity and audience expectations. I can't wait for you to hear Ryan’s latest insights into living a purposeful, ethical life._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. People talk about radical candor. Like it is important to be honest, but I think a lot of times people are seeking out these ideas because it's an excuse to be an asshole. Stoicism was a philosophy of personal resilience and toughness and endurance and individuality, but it was also an ethical framework for living. And you can't just pick the first parts and ignore these other parts.

Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Our guest today is back for the third time. And with Ryan Holiday, each conversation seems to be a little bit better than the last. For those who aren't familiar with Ryan, he's a best-selling author, host of the Daily Stoic podcast, and a thought leader who has become a leading advocate for modern Stoicism. For years now, Ryan has been on a journey to reveal how the teachings of ancient Stoic philosophers can integrate into our modern lives. We're here today to discuss his latest book, Right Thing, Right Now, which emphasizes the virtue of justice. And he challenges us all to

live ethically and authentically with purpose. Ryan's ability to turn ancient philosophical concepts into practical advice makes his work a unique asset for leaders and high performers in any field. In this episode, we discuss how the principles of Stoicism support compassion and empathy, the importance of open dialogue, and the balance between authenticity and audience expectations. I can't wait for you to hear Ryan's latest insights into living a purposeful, ethical life. So with that, let's dive right into this conversation with Ryan Holiday. Ryan, I'm so stoked to have this conversation. It feels like it was just the other day that I was on your podcast on The Daily Stoic talking about my new book. And it's really awesome to have you

on our podcast here to talk about your new book, Right Thing Right Now. And so before we jump into like what you've been writing about and thinking about last time that i was on your show you really you were sitting right here yeah right in your studio it was awesome like i love it's feel it feels really warm and safe in your studio with all those books it's really stimulating so nice job on on creating that feeling for your guests but um you know like you released an eight minute clip clip on social. When I first saw that come through, I was like, eight minutes? How would anybody watch an eight-minute clip on social? And then it was jammed with discussions and comments. And it was cool. I mean, basically,

it was me saying, hey, listen, stoicism is awesome, but I feel like it's left out compassion and emotion in the narrative here. And you said, oh, it's kind of what I'm writing about. Yes. Why do you think, first of all, why do you think that that clip happened in the way it happened? Well, you know what? One of the things I think was really good about it and that I think we should do more about it, we should do more on just generally as a society, is you and I were talking and you said, hey,

you know where I think you and I might disagree? And then we had a really nice discussion. It turned out actually, as often happens, we agreed way more than we thought we did. But in a time where everyone kind of has their audiences and they have what they know their audience wants to hear, it's really easy to just say the same thing over and over and over again and just kind of deliver the same red meat because you know that'll work and you know that's what the algorithm is interested in. What I think was really interesting and rewarding about that is you and I talked about what the Stoics got wrong. And then my audience, which is

largely people who like and agree with Stoicism, got super engaged with it. And we had a big discussion about it, did very well. And so we got rewarded for something that doesn't happen often enough, which is that we talked about a potential... I was talking about a potential, like I was talking about a potential shortcoming or a place of weakness in my argument. Like, you know what a straw man is, right? A straw man argument. There's this thing called, that I heard and I like, it's this idea of steel manning your argument.

So when you take something that, instead of going like, okay, here's what the people who disagree with me think, and you're very uncharitable and you're very conniving and dismissive in how you describe it, you really go out of your way to be generous to their arguments against you. And in the process, you get stronger because you're having to think about what people think about you. And you're having to see your own school of thought from a distance or from another angle. And so anyways, I thought that was just a wonderful little exchange that you and I had. But what we were talking about was, where were the Stoics potentially insufficient or what did they get wrong? And there is this idea that Stoicism, if your straw man of Stoicism is that

it's about stuffing the emotions down, not feeling them, not caring about anything that doesn't have to do with you, simply accepting everything about the world the way that it is, then I would agree. This is not a good school of philosophy. That is not a good way to go through life emotionally, politically, personally. And as it happens, that's not what Stoicism is. But there are certainly people who are trying to twist the philosophy to make it into that. And I just think that's a bad way to go through life and not what the Stoics were talking about. Yeah, for sure.

And the point I was raising was, where does compassion and emotion, where does that fit into the narrative? And to be clear for folks that maybe missed that conversation that we had. Obviously, you're deeply rooted in modernizing or bringing forward the Stoic philosophies in a way that people now are craving it and wanting to have a little bit more of a sense of agency where they feel like they're in control of their own lives. And the thing that I was just agitating for is like, where's compassion and emotion fit in the narrative? And to be uber, like, I'm not about to bring a light to a straw man argument, or a match to a straw man argument. It doesn't mean no good. Neither is any good. But the tone was, okay, I'm feeling like we need an agitation not only for agency and high control in a world that is highly anxious and uncertain.

Yes, I nod my head to yes, we want that sense of felt control and agency. However, we just need a little bit more compassion and emotion and empathy in the mix. And so can you remind folks of how you square those two traditional Stoic philosophy with adding the tone of compassion? I'll give you a great example of this. So one of my favorite quotes from Epictetus, he says, remember whenever you're offended that you are complicit in taking offense, right? Which I think is a great way of thinking about it, right? So what the Stoics are saying is like, look, when somebody says something about you, that's just a collection of sounds and words.

You make up about that. That's hurtful. My reputation has been damaged. Those are fighting words. You know, that's rude. We are putting labels on this thing that is outside us and we have no control over. And so the idea of being offended or the idea of needing to shut that down, that's not how a stoic would try to go through the world.

So I very much believe that, right? That people are easily offended. And that oftentimes when I'm offended, it says so much more about me than it does about what other people are saying or doing. So that's true, but equally true. I believe as a decent person going around the world, going around in the world and trying to offend people, deliberately not caring about how your words land on them or about their feelings is not just rude. That is something that you control. Look, you ultimately don't control what someone takes from what you said. But if you are utterly indifferent to the impact or the consequences of your words and actions, well, then you're violating another very important part of stoicism, which is this virtue of justice.

And so I try to go in the, I guess the way I square this is, I try not to be easily offended and I try to keep my opinions about things to myself. At the same time, I try to be thoughtful and considerate about the things that I say and do because I don't want to say and do because I don't want to needlessly offend.

I don't want to needlessly harm. And as far as I'm able, I would like to do the opposite. I would like to be kind and considerate and make people feel good. And so to me, that's a way to think about it. Once it crosses over into your sphere, deciding to not take things personally is really important. At the same time, going through the world and going, hey, once it leaves my sphere, it's not my problem. Well, now you're being a jerk. And I think there's a lot of that that's happening. So you squared it beautifully.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in.

It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach.

And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals,

on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day.

What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter.

I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. I do think back to your first comment that having disagreements or seeing things from multiple points of view is hard and emotionally charging. And if you are intolerant because you've studied it for so long and you're adamant about a logic or a sequence or a way of thinking that makes sense, and somebody comes in like

shooting a missile at this approach that you're so hardened about. It's just like you and I are right now hinting at the political narrative in the United States that is just like, I don't even want to bring it up with people that I really enjoy. It's a bit overwhelming. Well, people talk about radical candor. It is important to be honest and whatever. But I think a lot of times people are seeking out these ideas because it's an excuse to be an asshole. And that to me is not what stoicism is about. And it's not the kind of person that I would like to be. So ultimately, we only control what we do, right? So that means we control how we interpret things, but it also means we control our intentions. And are we going through the world intending to be considerate and compassionate

and kind and empathetic? That's great. Is that always going to be appreciated and understood? Is it always going to be well-received? No, but I still think we have to try. Yeah. Do you, yeah, we are relational. I mean, relationships kind of run the whole show here. Your relationship with yourself, your relationship with other people, your relationship with the planet, your relationship with experience, your relationship with the future, you know, like relationships are running the show and to be void of the emotions that are involved in those relations seems academic at best and naive at worst. There's a better way to go through it. Yeah, I don't know if we talked about this, but there was this guy in the UK who was fired from his job and he was fired for basically being

a jerk. He didn't bathe. He said rude, offensive things. He was very politically incorrect. He asked people inappropriate questions. He was just like a problem in the workplace. And he gets fired. And he claims that it's religious discrimination because he was a Stoic. And I just think that's the opposite of what Stoicism is. To know, to me, stoicism is the ability to be in control of oneself and to go, hey, I'm thinking this, but I don't need to say that. Or, hey, here's how this is likely to be interpreted by someone else who perhaps is not as thick skinned as I am, right? Like empathy isn't always, just because you can empathize with how someone feels doesn't mean that that's like a great way for them to feel or that it's rational that they feel that way or that they even should feel that

way. But it is the ability to understand and anticipate how what you do is going to be perceived by others and that understanding that everyone sort of perceives and understands things differently. And I think if you think of Stoicism as the suppression and elimination of emotion, you're essentially reverting back to an earlier school of philosophy, the cynics. You know, the cynics are these sort of wild animals in ancient Greece who reject all societal customs. And they live in the streets and they reject all possessions and propriety and all these things. And there was a certain brilliance and truth to that, but it's certainly not how a society can function. And I think the Stoics were

just slightly more socially adept and they understood how to operate relationally as you were talking about. And part of operating relationally is understanding how your things are going to be perceived and understood by others and doing your best to have them understood as you meant them to be understood, not saying, hey, your feelings are your problem. Right, exactly. Right. Which would be callous. Yes.

Like, so if we go back to a first principle in stoicism is like control the things that are in your control. And so when you say something and somebody has a reaction to it, both parties are complicit to your first point. And so having an understanding of like, oh, that triggered this emotion or this response in the other person, there's a part that I'm playing in it, there's a part that they're playing in it. And if I can not just back myself and say, that's your problem, but be able to almost hover above, not in a detached way, but hover above and understand what the internal experience is of the other person, it would actually, that information gives you more data points

to be able to respond in an elevated way. Maybe that involves compassion or distance or whatever it might be. Yeah. And to go, hey, the effectiveness with which I deliver my message or what I'm trying to say matters and that I'm going to take the time to really think about it. It's not like, hey, this is the truth, deal with it. But thinking about what's the best way to say this. Obviously, as a writer or as a podcaster or an influencer, whatever one does, thinking about the best way to say what it is that you have to say is obviously very important. And there's a huge... Mark Twain said something like, the difference between the right word and the wrong word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug, right? And he's totally right.

Getting it exactly right is very powerful. And even being just slightly wrong is like the opposite of powerful. And so I think about this like on my books, like, look, it would be wonderful if just a deep dive into a topic was sufficient, but that's not the world. You have to think about what's the packaging, the cover, the title, the marketing description. You have to find a way to make ideas not just palatable, but accessible and exciting and memorable to people. And this is why empathy is so important and why ego is so toxic, right? People think ego is just like, oh, it's off-putting.

Ego thinks that it's the only person that matters. And almost none of us exist in a business or a space or an industry in which we're the most important part. If you are making something, you're making it for other people. So if it's all about you, it's not going to land the same way as someone who's able to think about what other people and what they're going through and what their lives are like and what their needs are and what their interests are. Artists who are able to make things that feel true to them, but then true to large amounts of people at the same time, that's powerful, right? A restaurant has to not just make food that tastes good, but you have to create an experience in which all of the sort of different things are struck. And so I think the ability to really empathize and think about how what you're doing is going to be perceived and how it will resonate is just like the most important skill that there is. So when you're speaking now, how much of you is editing

what you're saying or conforming what you're saying so that somebody else will hear, feel, and have an experience intended for them versus you saying and speaking from an authentic place of just you? That's a good question. Yeah, it can be this tricky thing where you want to be authentic and true to yourself. And at the same time, you realize how every audience has something that it wants to hear or needs to hear and you want to tailor things. I don't know. I don't know exactly. I'll tell you one thing I have noticed. You and I both speak to lots of different audiences. One of the funny things is that every audience thinks it's very different. The CEO wants to talk to you first and let you know the last 10 years of history of the organization

and how their culture is incredibly unique and all the things that make them different. And then you could just go give the speech that you always give and they'll be like, it's perfect, right? It was exactly what we needed. Because actually, most organizations and people have the same issues. We're all the same. At the same time, when you can make little bits of effort or little tweaks that make them feel as if this was tailored exactly to them, it can be incredibly powerful, right? And so that's something I think about. I tend to find myself saying the same things that I always say or that I'm excited to say. But then I try to make little efforts here or there that allows the audience to see themselves

in it. I got this really great advice when I was a research assistant. So I worked for this great writer named Robert Green, who I know you know. And Robert was saying to me, he was like, look, diversity in your stories, in your books, he's like, look, as a moral issue, it's just important. You don't want to just be talking about the same 10 dead white guys from history, that you want to have a wide representation of people. But he was saying like, look, you also want to have a wide representation of people and cultures and places and genders and whatever, so that each of the readers, so that he was saying, so you could appeal to as wide a group of readers as possible, so that everyone can see themselves

in the pages of what you're doing. And so when I go back through and I edit my books, one of the things I do is I try to think of different professions or lifestyles or experiences. And I try to take specific... I'll like specifically call out some hypothetical involving a contractor or a nurse or a parent or a grandparent. I try to just little nods here or there to very specific experiences. So I can imagine that person, like a person in that profession, reading that thing and being lit up by they're like, oh, I'm in this. This is actually, this isn't for people generally. This is specifically for people like me. And so I just, I spend a lot of time thinking about how do you make the thing both very general and very specific at the

same time. That's awesome. Yeah, you do a nice job. I was watching an interview that you recently did for your book. It was on social. It was a clip. You were in studio somewhere and I could tell it was big lights and it was kind of a moment. And what I really appreciated is that you were speaking in a way that did not feel like you were performing, that you were just dropped into like speaking something, answering the question, whatever the question is in your most authentic way. It did not feel like you were, I'll use the word again, performative, but your answers are like, oh, I see me in that. So I don't know how you actually did it in that sense, but you're doing it in a really nice way. And so it's meant to be a compliment to say thank you for showing up authentically and also finding ways where me in your community can see themselves in what you're trying to sort out or explain.

Oh, I appreciate that. It's a hard thing doing media because on the one hand, if you're winging it, you're probably not bringing your best self to it. And on the other hand, if you're reciting a script, you're probably not being authentic and real either. And I imagine it's probably similar to something in sports where you want to be incredibly well-practiced and trained and at the same time be able to just go where it needs to go.

And that sort of paradox is everything. You know what it feels like to me is I have spent, this is, I'll build an analogy. I've spent 25, 30 years learning how to play all, most, a lot of instruments. So I've got like, let's call it 15 instruments I can play. And they're all kind of grounded in the same types of theory of instruments. So I've got like, let's call it 15 instruments I can play. And they're all kind of grounded in the same types of theory of music. So there's nothing that's really wildly different, but I could pick up the ukulele and I could pick up the guitar. I could pick up a flute, you know, so I could go strings or whatever. And it gives me a sense of comfort that I've got range because I practiced understanding something at a deep level. And then it allows me to not think about the instrument.

I could even grab the wrong instrument, but know that I could get to some notes that might affect you in a way that would help. So there's a sense of rich or deep trust that I'll figure it out as I go. And I know that I practice this shit a lot. And so that, to me, that, that helps me in the small rooms, if you will. And then in big life, it helps me like I'll figure if it goes wildly sideways, the worst imagination that could, you know, that your imagination could conjure. I'll, I'll land on my feet and figure that out too. And so that type of belief system needs to be earned, forged and tested and

forged again and tested. And then over time, it's like, I feel like I can settle in as opposed to stressing over finding just the right word for the right moment. There's an Eisenhower line. He said, plans are worthless, but planning is everything. And, and I think it was funny. I don't know if this is the interview you're referring to, but so I was supposed to do, I was doing the today show. That was the first thing I did for the new book. And they, they, they they have a producer call you. Most people who are appearing on these shows have never been on television before. So they're prepping you multiple times because they don't want you to get on live television and then just forget your own

name or something. And you have four minutes. They were like, hey, you have a four-minute segment on the Today Show, which is not a lot of time to talk about something that you spent years working on. So they want it to go well. And so this woman prepped us multiple times. The publicist was involved. I think there was three total phone calls. And then there's a producer when you get there. And so I had a very good sense of they were going to ask me this, they were going to ask me this, they were going to ask me this. And this is what they more or less what they wanted each of my answers to be. And there were like graphics that were supposed to appear behind me going along with my answers, right? They're

not like making these graphics on the fly. So I had a pretty good sense of how the interview was supposed to go. And I get there and Carson Daly, who was the guy interviewing me, as it happens, is actually a fan of Daly Stoic. And so he gets there and he walks in and he goes, hey, man, I don't know. I don't know about this. I don't know about this. And I go, oh, okay. And you and, you know, I, I gotta be perfectly honest. I wasn't feeling it that much either. Like I practiced it so many times it was starting to, I was nervous about it because I've been practicing. He's like, we'll just get up there. And, and, uh, I think, I think you got this. And so I get up there and

he, he proceeds not to ask any of the questions from the prep. But because I'd practiced so many times, I had things that I knew I could say. There it is. There it is. And I had things that I wanted to say that weren't in the prep and it worked out perfectly. So I think if they had just said, hey, you're going on live television in four minutes, get ready, it probably would have been a disaster. But because we practiced it over and over again, and he and I had a familiarity with thearsed about it that had I been trying to hit the marks that I thought they wanted me to hit, maybe I wouldn't have seemed as myself. Isn't it fun to play jazz though?

It's really electric. To share stories here, there was a live interview that I did maybe like three weeks ago, and it was going to be really tight traffic. And from my last meeting to this meeting, and I couldn't move my previous or my meeting before this event. And so I arrived like 45 seconds ago. They're greeting me at the door. I'm like humping to get up the stairs. Like it was on and I'm doing everything I can as I'm doing. I'm not nervous, but I'm trying to keep my system calm. So I don't break into like a sweat from running. And I arrive and they're like, okay, good. This is great. And we had done prep on it. And the person who was going to interview me, like had a familiarity with my work and

was really excited that I was there. He was super generous and kind. And he goes, okay, so we only have four minutes. Same exact drill. And he says, okay, so I'm going to go this, this, and this. And it's exactly what we talked about. And I was like, yeah, cool, man. And so it took a couple beats to really make sure that I'm in the right zone.

And I was in the pocket. It felt great. And first question was completely different. He lost his mind. So I had a moment like, oh, this is kind of funny because I was talking about the first rule of mastery and like, don't, you know, stop worrying about what people think of you and just kind of go with the flow of being yourself. And so it was like, okay, jazz, here we go. Like that instrument up and just start riffing. I really appreciate it. So what I saw in you, I didn't know the backstory. What I saw in you was jazz. It was eloquent. And you were Ryan.

You were no different than, what was it, like 2000? I think we just won the Super Bowl. Was it like 2012 or 13 when we were on my porch at the office? I think so. It might have been a little later than that. But yeah, you want to get as close to how you would be in an ordinary scenario. That's what you want to get to. Yeah. So you felt in this interview that I saw just a couple of days ago, the way that you were in a casual conversation amongst two friends a decade ago. And so I thought I just wanted to say cool, man. Oh, thank you.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, What you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard.

Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term and together these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery brain function and long-term energy they're part of my daily routine and if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here use the code finding mastery for 35 off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E, momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 35% off

your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and

ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off.

Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. You know, there's two things that when I watch what you've done, congratulations. And not that you need that from me because you already know that the track you're on is meaningful. But I don't think you had a clue. Like just how much your interest in Marcus Aurelius and the Stoics and fill in the blank was going to catch, like you said, almost like a religion.

Your community is on. I mean, switched on. So much so that I wondered for you if that you feel like you have to be the expert on all things stoicism. It's you and then, I don't know, some ivory tower academic, academician who has studied philosophy, you know, for the last 25 years and has been teaching for the last, you know, 35 that you're like, I don't know if you feel this pressure to be the one. I don't know. I think you gotta, you gotta you got to remember why, I'm sure you've talked to athletes about this a bazillion times, but my two favorite things are stoic philosophy and writing books.

I love books. And so one of the weird things about success though, is that you succeed in a thing because you're good at that thing. And then often what happens is you have less and less time and space to do that actual thing because you're a quarterback and now you're doing commercials and you're also the leader of a team and you're a parent, you have all this other stuff. And so I've tried to be very clear about what my main thing is. My main thing is that I write books. I happen to write books about stoicism and sometimes about other things. But my main thing is that I am a writer of books. That's the verb of what I do, as opposed to the noun

of what I have achieved or people see me as. And so I feel like as long as I'm making space to do that thing, I'm largely in control of my destiny. And it also, it keeps me humble and honest, because it's still very, very hard. And I think where you can get into trouble is when you become kind of like an actor playing a role similar to that thing, but you're kind of just coasting on the energy or the stuff that you did before. And so one of the reasons people sometimes go, oh, you write so many books, you're so prolific or whatever. I actually think that's a big part of it is that as long as I'm writing books, I'm still in touch with the main thing as opposed to sitting on top of this series of accomplishments

or this audience and becoming either a kind of a caricature or like a guru. And I'm not really interested in being that. I like writing books and I like what writing books forces me to do and learn. So I've tried to stay very focused on that. I so appreciate that response. And as opportunities present themselves, it is easy. It is easy to say yes. And I feel like I want to do three things, making that number up I'm, I'm, I'm reaching for in that way. And I, I understand the audacity in me thinking this, but like, I want to do, let's say two or three things really well, because then there feels like a, there's something richly innovative,

innovative that comes from that. Sure. And I think I'm doing seven things okay. So, you know, like it's a thing, you know, that's maybe for others to discern, not myself in some respect. But like when I'm really honest, I'm like, I'm doing a little too much now. Well, it's like a comedian, right? The really hard thing is going up on stage in front of an audience that's not your own and like making them laugh. That's one of the hardest things to do in entertainment or art. And so I can imagine if that's what initially attracts you, you get good at that, you build a bit of a name or an audience. And then now either you're touring all the time to your own fans or you are

performing in front of a camera, which is probably in some ways more lucrative, but also a lot less scary. It's not as hard. That's not to say that acting isn't as hard, isn't hard, but the stakes are lower because you're not going to get booed off the stage. And so you could find that your success for achieving mastery in the field is these off-roads that are easier and more rewarding in a lot of ways. And so you're going to, like, are you going to choose between going up and doing this scary, hard thing that you can fail at? Or are you going to go over here and make a bunch of money doing a thing that's close to it, but less scary? And so you can find yourself working very, very hard, but you've kind of taken some of the existential danger or the risk out of it. And what you've also lost is the authenticity and the honesty and the sort of day

to day challenge of it. And so, you know, I just try to do the writing. Cheryl Strayed talked about this when she said there's a big difference between writing and publishing. And she's saying, and I think about that all the time, if I identify as someone who writes books or is writing, as opposed to the version of me that got up today and was working on this chapter that I'm struggling with on the book that I'm doing now is different. Wait, you're writing another book right now? Always, always. My rule is that I always start the next one before one comes out. Before, okay.

Because, so the version of me that's staring at a blank page and struggling with it, that's, I think, a humbler and a more honest and more present me than the one who is on stage or in front of cameras answering questions. The person that's putting out the book, that's a person who's just reaping rewards of work that the other person did. And so I try to stay more towards the one doing the work, not the one getting the credit. In ringing that same bell, I have one client a month. And it keeps me incredibly honest to the work and the science and the art of the science that I love. And it keeps, like I'll use the word, it keeps me honest. Not talking about like what I did when me and Al Bundy played high school

football, but like bringing something forward that is fresh in the laboratory with an extraordinary person that is really straining and striving and trying to figure it out in that vulnerable, courageous way. So that's how I'm tuning just for- Yeah, the idea of the verb and the noun to me is just a thing that we don't talk enough about. So when you're seeing a patient, you are doing the verb, right? And when you are being recognized as the doctor, you are being the noun. And I could imagine, I mean, we've seen this, right? There's lots of sort of television doctors, right? Or personalities that originally had, you know, very well-established practices or profound expertise. They were the best in the world at what they did. They were just also

someone who had opinions or performed on camera or whatever. And you could see how slowly and steadily one consumes the other and you become just the name or the letters and not the person who is still doing the thing. And look, that's not to say you have to do it forever and that your identity, you never earn the identity. Obviously, at some point, you can walk away and people can have multiple chapters in your life. I just think the craft of whatever you do is humbling. And the longer you can stay in that, the more authentic and real you'll be. I think you're speaking not just to you and me and a group of friends, but you are pointing to all of us who are in corporate lives or entrepreneurship or

artistry in another way is that I remember that just to bring the point home, you are not what you do. You can never, you, you are so big that the thing that you do can never encompass like who you really are. And I know that gets woo woo esoteric in quickly, but I remember to be really concrete. I was 15 years old and people would say oh mike you're a surfer and i had such a response you know kind of as a counterculture you know appreciate appreciating of like alternative approaches to life i was like no i surf and it was such a punk little move like thinking about 15 you know like to an adult or whoever but but I, I surfed, but I was not a surfer and I never want to be in a felt sense of professional bondage, you know, to, to the thing I'm doing. I was,

I remember talking with the current CEO of Nike when he was in between jobs, um, between PayPal and Nike and he had this really rich insight. And John says, I've got these golden handcuffs. People know that I'm a really good CEO. And I don't know if I want to do photography next. I don't know if I want to do something that is completely wildly surprising to other people, if how they're going to respond. And I'm noticing that the world around me is expecting me to go find this other big job. So like having the freedom of not being the noun, but being the verb is like to use your framing is quite simple and really rich. There's a great essay by this Silicon Valley investor named Paul Graham, and the title is just Keep Your Identity Small. And he's saying the more you identify as or with things, he says, basically the stupider you are.

So if you say, I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, you've now identified with a party as opposed to a set of ideas or better, specific ideas about specific events or policies. And this is true for all the things. If you identify as an American versus a person, you have now separated yourself from a group of people and become part of a smaller group of people. And I think that, yeah, the difference between being someone who surfs and a surfer is the refusal to accept that you are the identity that someone or some set of habits wants to foist upon you. And I think maintaining your independence is really important and defining yourself by how you see yourself as opposed to what this random

consolation of things means to people. Amen to that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery.

It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone,

use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple.

Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order.

That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Before we get into kind of some nuances of the book that you just published and wrote, did you publish it? I don't actually know that to be the case. No, no, no. I have a publisher. All right. So there's two things I want to talk about first. One is broicism. Okay. So I do want to talk about that. And I also want to talk about how you design your life. You have a family, you have a successful business, you're an artist. So I do want to talk about how you design and think about hydrating all of the things that you do, including yourself. So which one do you want to take on first, the life design or bro-icism? So bro-icism is funny to me because

on the one hand, I think it's wonderful that people who maybe typically wouldn't see themselves as being interested in philosophy, you know, athletes, weightlifters, whatever, are suddenly interested in these ancient ideas. I think that's wonderful. At the same time, there is, I think, been a tendency, and I've been guilty of it myself, to take what is easiest or most conducive to productivity or professional success from the philosophy and excise it from the larger framework in which it's supposed to exist, which is a far more well-rounded thing. So broicism has kind of become this term people have used to throw around this kind of male-centric, masculine, hustle culture, productivity-focused, prosperity gospel version of stoicism, which it's not supposed to be.

And I think to see it that way is to miss what's so wonderful about it. Yeah. And I'll mirror it with like bro science. And like there's this at one level, it's like, oh, people are interested in at least hearing about the science that will help them be a little bit better. And the derogative name of the bro science or bro-ism is like, hey man, you getting in your cold, your cold therapy? Yeah, I heard some research or read some research. They didn't actually read the research,

but they heard somebody talking about it. Maybe they never even picked up meditations by Marcus Aurelius, but they listened to you. So that's where it gets a little bit corny, if you will. Like it's not deep and rich, but it's right at the surface and it fits kind of the surface level conversations for other people. But there is an attraction to being connected to living the good life. And there's lots of people that have been talking about it for, you know, centuries.

And you are creating that space for a ton of people. So that is cool. That is really cool. Yeah. And again, we should welcome anyone at any level of any interest. This is a wonderful thing. At the same time, you just have to understand if you have only a surface level understanding of the ideas, it makes you very susceptible to people who are trying to capture that attention for less than good ends, right? And so just as with like sort of bro

science, if it's this kind of superficial, hey, do this, you'll get stronger, you'll get more jacked, you'll have more sex or whatever. Now, people who are selling scammy products or get-rich-quick schemes or whatever, you're vulnerable to that kind of thinking. And I think I've seen this in this do-icism space where, yeah, look, if you think stoicism is a recipe for being a better sociopath, then you're going to be vulnerable to certain sort of grifters or people selling grievances or division or just toxic ideas because they're going to understand what you're trying to get. And they're going to just give you that thing over and over again. Well, to extend that point, which is part of the first principles are having high agency, controlling what you can of stoicism. Okay. And then to your nuanced title, Right Thing Right Now,

the right thing, according to the Republican right or the Democratic left, whatever, can be grounded in a Stoic principle, however interpreted in a wildly different way. And so did I read correctly that you turned down working in a political party? Did I get that right? I have before, yes. No, I got offered a job in the last administration, which I did not accept, thankfully, because it did not go well for anyone involved. No, I'd be calling you from jail probably. Would I? No, no, I wouldn't.

You never know. You never know. You make one bad choice and it can lead to many, many other bad choices. Isn't that crazy how the slippery slope is slipperier than most people recognize? And good, earnest people have fallen prey to a lot of heavy-handed ideas of what should be done. No, we're products of the environment that we're in, and we make choices based on what the people around us are doing. And so, look, I think it's important. So stoicism is built around these four virtues. The virtues are courage and discipline. Those are the first two. Those are straight down the middle. And you can see

why this would appeal oftentimes to a very male audience. Everyone wants to be braver. Everyone wants to have more discipline. But then the other two virtues are a little different. They're justice and wisdom. And so I think it's important that we have to understand that the discipline and the courage, if they're not pointed towards a North Star of what is right, if they're not rooted in a kind of a moral compass, or again, a sense of our relationality, you're going to end up very far from where you need to end up. And so I just think it's important that stoicism was a philosophy of personal resilience and toughness and endurance and individuality, but it was also an ethical framework for living and very much rooted in a sense of right and wrong, a sense of our obligations to other people, a sense of being obligated to contribute to make the world a better place.

And you can't just pick the first parts and ignore these other parts. In a more concrete way, you've got, take the political spectrum here. You've got folks that want the same thing, but they've got very different ways to go about it. We could use the abortion conversation. We could use gun control or guns as a narrative. Like there's an, an, and. And so- I would agree. Although I would say, look, there's definitely a group of people who disagree on what certain solutions are to certain issues, but they're also, and I think this group of people have always existed. There's another

group of people who are sort of like, why should I care? This goes back to what we're talking about earlier. Why should I care about your feelings about what I say? Why should I care? And I think when I think about stoicism as an ethical framework, the idea that you would be indifferent to the sufferings of other people or the consequences of a policy, that strikes me as one of the big problems of our time, the idea that one should care. So, I mean, abortion is a very tough one, but I think the border is the idea of how do you solve the problem of immigration in the 21st century, which intersects with all these other issues, how you solve that problem. There's a range of political solutions. But the idea that you could just

close your heart to the people who are suffering and desperately trying to make their way towards a better life, there is a sizable group of the population that thinks that's an acceptable solution to that problem, which I would argue it isn't. Do you know what I mean? So I think when we're talking about justice, the idea of compassion, which you brought up, is such an essential part of it. And I think we sometimes take for granted that everyone feels like compassion is an important virtue, and I'm not sure that's the case. Yeah. I think that fairness is a virtue that I have a problem with. And when I think about the world, I don't see fairness in the wild. I don't know why we teach fairness. And I'm sure I'm stirring a hornet's nest for plenty of people here, but I don't know what my,

I was first really contemplative about it when my son is 15, started his school. It was one of the five virtues that they were teaching and they anchor their teaching in these five virtues. And one of them was fairness. And I was like, whoa, what? Like, I don't understand it. I don't, I think you can live a just life in a just society and it's actually not fair how you're born, where you're born, the conditions of your neighborhood, fill in the blanks. And so, I don't know.

So I have a hard time with fairness in just as one general virtue. So- And by the way, I would say like what I try, just so people know, the book is not me taking the stoic view on a bunch of culture war ethical issues in society. Because I think that's a, that's an impossible thing to do. And I don't think that's a book that anyone wants to read. Interesting, though, like when we when we think of justice, which is what the book is about, this virtue of justice, we tend to think of these like most intractable political issues or legal issues. And we go, well, what about this?

And what about that? Right. Like you and I were talking about it and we we immediately went to two of the thorniest issues. Yeah. Yeah. Right. issues, right? And just like philosophers will talk about the trolley problem or these sort of very vexing ethical issues. And what we neglect is that the vast majority of ethical considerations are not nearly so thorny and are actually, we widely agree on them. We just don't practice them enough. And so I tried to spend

a lot of time in the book talking more about, yeah, issues of personal integrity and honesty and keeping one's word and telling the truth and standing up for the little guy and just these sort of basic bedrock values that society has to be built upon. That, by the way, the more we talk about and share about, the better frame of discussion we can draw on to solve some of these thornier issues. Yeah. And they need to be practiced early on for them to have some sort of muscle when the environment is pretty intense. And I'll give you a really cool example. My son, 15, go back to

him for just one more minute. He, end of school and he was getting an A minus in his grade. And he noticed that his teacher made a mistake and he was going to get 125% in the overall class. So he's going to go from an A minus to an A, which, okay, you know, like that would have been nice for him. But he didn't earn it. So this goes back to fairness and courage and justice and a little bit of wisdom here. If his discernment without any prompting, he went to his teacher and he said, hey, teach, I just want to point out there's a mistake. I just want to let you know. And the teacher was like, nice job, Grayson. That's really cool. Thank you. And I'm going to give you some bonus points. It's not going to get you to an A, but I just want you to recognize that that's cool. Next day, he was

talking to one of his friends and his friend said, hey Hey ma'am, I recognize that my teacher had me down for 125%. I hope he doesn't notice. And so, and so that kid had a B in the class and got moved up to an A plus. And so Grayson was like, damn, you know, like he's going to get better grade than me.

And he was dishonest. And like, dad, that's not fair. So you're right. That's not fair. So I'm not interested in fairness, but you had courage. You had the discernment and a sense of wisdom to know what was right. And you acted, you know, accordingly, like, good job, kid.

Like, that's what it's. So we have to practice our virtues and our values in low temperature environments to have access to them in high temperature environments. And so I'm propping my son up here, but really to make a point about we have to practice the virtues. And so I do want to, I want to square it back to your book, you know, and the title. When sports is such a great opportunity to learn the ability of calling fouls on yourself, calling penalties on yourself. And the title- shoving an opponent or tripping them is to lose in a different kind of way. And I think that's something, you know, we've been learning these lessons from sports as long as we've been playing them, that they're kind of a metaphor for life. You know, you can win by cheating,

but are you really winning? And who are you becoming as a result of winning that way? And thinking of it also, though, as a muscle, the person who calls the penalty on themselves in a low stakes environment is building the muscle to be able to do it. And there's been a few moments in golf where this has happened where somebody points something out and it costs them a title or a championship. And so the idea that you're going to do that in the big moments of your life, having not done it in the little moments of life, is probably naive. Back to Grace one more time. His sport coach is 15, pretty highly competitive team. And his sport coach says, no, no, no. You always say,

you always try to influence the ref for the call. That's what competing, that's how you compete. And I've got such a problem with it. Maradona's hand of God, I don't know if you're familiar with that, the goal in the World Cup final that he scored with his hand. And this was before Instant Replay. And Argentina won because of it. And so he won because the call was missed and you're not allowed to score with your hand. And he didn't call a foul on himself. So I think there's a dilemma there.

Of course. What would you do? Yes. Really, what would you do? Would you You know, really, what would you do? Would you in that moment? I think that there's a likelihood that you could, with some fans, we know this to be the case, that you could be executed for it. You know, like people have scored on the wrong goals and they show up in their country no

longer living after that. So like from Mike to Ryan, like really, what would you do in that moment yeah it's it's tough it's tough but but it's oh you're you're keeping your mouth you swallowed the whistle you're keeping your mouth closed you're like giving that look like later like oh shit like i got away with one that's no no no i think i think what i'm saying is that it's funny that we, on the one hand, obviously we celebrate the teams that win the most. Right. And at the same time, there are moments where, and I'm trying to think of who was the golfer

who told, it was in the U S amateur championships, the golfer that told Tiger Woods. I think that, I think my, I think my ball moved when I moved the leaf or whatever it was. Yeah. I don't remember who it was, but I remember the courage to do that. Yeah. You know what? I'm feeling terrible because I interviewed that guy. Um, there are moments like that in sport, in sports that were so amazing that almost become in their own way, these sort of moments of triumph and greatness that stand for all time. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore.

When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of those areas that often gets overlooked until your hair starts to change. That's when people pay attention. Now, that's why I've been loving iRestore Elite. It's

a hands-free red light therapy device that helps stimulate dormant hair follicles, helps to support regrowth. It's a clinical grade device. It's simple to use. It fits right into the rhythm of my day, whether I'm meditating, reading, prepping for one of our clients here at Finding Mastery. It's really simple. Now, red light therapy has some pretty amazing research behind it when it comes to cellular energy, tissue repair, inflammation control, as well as healing. iRestore is using those same principles to help your hair thrive. I really like this product. I used it last night. I use it on a regular basis. They also offer a 12-month money-back guarantee. So if you don't see results, they'll refund you. No questions. I love that. They have real confidence in their product.

And because you're a member of the Finding Mastery community, right now they're offering our listeners huge savings on the iRestore Elite. When you use the code FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FINDINGMASTERY. Again, that code is FINDINGMASTERY at iRestore.com slash FINDINGMASTERY for exclusive savings. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Lisa. Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I

sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot, something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. so whether you're a side sleeper or stomach sleeper or somewhere in between there's a fit designed specifically for you and what i appreciate most is their purpose they've donated over 41 000 mattresses to people in need i love that so right

now you can get 25 off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's lisa.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. There's this story I tell in the book about this Roman general named Regulus, who is taken prisoner. And he's released after years in captivity. He's sent back to Rome to hopefully negotiate a peace treaty. But the agreement is that if he's not successful and he starts to pack his bags to go home and they're like what are you doing this isn't safe you know you you don't have to go back you know you don't owe anything to your captors you should be lie cheat and steal do whatever you have to get out and now you're out and um he doesn't he goes back where he is promptly tortured and put to death. But his argument was that if he broke his word, only he would benefit, right?

His argument was that if he keeps his word, he alone would suffer. But if he breaks his word, all Romans would suffer because no one would trust them in future negotiations. And I say this story because Regulus to the Romans became as famous as any of their other great conquerors for this moment of selflessness and courage and commitment. And so, yes, there are, of course, we respect the team that finds every possible loophole and advantage and eventually wins. And there's something about just the sheer inarguability of their success. But there are also these moments of greatness and goodness and decency and kindness that also stand out in and of themselves in sports. And you just have to ask yourself, ultimately, which of those do you want to be? And so look, I would like to say,

if I felt the ball go off my hand, I would call the goal on myself. I'm not sure. I've never been in that scenario. So I don't want to... What I think I would like to do and what I would actually do when you have thousands of fans yelling at you and all the things that are going in your brain trying to convince you that maybe you didn't actually touch it. That's the other part of it is we're so good at fooling ourselves. But I like to tell these stories because I think it's another form of human greatness that we don't celebrate enough. The other great Roman general is this guy, Cincinnatus, who is called in to save Rome when they're invaded. And they make him a dictator. They say, look, you have unlimited power. You're a dictator. Do whatever you need to do to save us.

And he does. He saves Rome. But his greatness, the reason Cincinnatus is celebrated for the next 2,000 years is that 17 days after becoming dictator, he lays down his command and he goes back to his farm and resumes farming. And it was this example that George Washington was mimicking when he resigns his commission in the Continental Army. And then when he resigns after two terms as president, he could have served for the rest of his life. He could have set up a dynasty. He instead decides to return to his farm and go back to being a regular person.

So there are equal moments in human history of selflessness and greatness and honor and doing the right thing. We just don't celebrate them as much as I think we used to. And the more we can, the more that can be the kind of example that your son or me or you or anyone thinks about when they're at these kind of crossroads moments, not just thinking about all the other people that did it and got away with it, but can we also think about the people who resisted that temptation and did the right thing? Yeah. That's to your point, like where sport shows up in an interesting way. Like just, just at the time of this recording last night, one of the athletes in the NBA finals, um, spent time waiting to make sure he like took care of

all the people on his team that lost, you know? And so like, you know, just those small little moments of high character when they creep into our consciousness is really cool. And we don't celebrate anymore people like Galileo, who was basically condemned at the end of his life because he was speaking truth to power, the power being the Christian church, saying, hey, listen, I think we got it backwards. I think we've got this kind of whole thing about the sun and the moon. I think we got it backwards. I think we've got this kind of whole thing about the sun and the moon. I think we got it backwards, guys. It's not revolving around us, damn it.

And so those are pretty radical voices. And okay, who are your truth tellers? What do you mean? Who are people that speak truth to you that say, Ryan, I hear you. I think you're a little off here now. Ryan, you got to turn the microphone off. Come back to the dining room table or whatever. Who are your truth tellers? Yeah. I mean, look, I think this is an important part of what gets missed when people are sort of wedded to their work. We call them art monsters. If you don't have a family or friends or peers because you've isolated yourself or given yourself over completely to your work and you don't value anyone or anything other than your proficiency at

that thing, you actually make yourself very fragile and vulnerable because yeah, you don't have people who know you as a person who can help you in moments of success or in failure, right? So my wife is certainly one of those people. Having children is a great part of this. I tell this story in the book about this civil rights leader who is one of Martin Luther King's close friends, and he's devastated by the assassination of Martin Luther King. And as he comes practicing this idea of forgiveness, he comes to meet and minister to Martin Luther King's assassin in prison. They become slowly sort of acquaintances and then friends. And James Earl Ray ultimately asked him if he would officiate his wedding, his prison wedding. And so he's at his house later that evening and he's explaining to his family,

like, hey, James Earl Ray wants me to officiate his prison wedding. I don't know if I should do it. And his teenage son is sitting there eating, and he just goes, well, dad, if you believe any of this shit you've been talking about, you'll do it. And just as sort of out of the mouths of babes, There is something about your kids who don't see you as this special thing, but also do see you as a different kind of special thing who can just sort of speak truth to you in a way that other people can't. That story is so good and fitting for the title of your book, Right Thing Right Now, because that kid said the right thing at the right time. And that was probably him pointing to the character of his dad, the values that his dad

presents, the deeds that he would expect from somebody that had that character and those values, which is the subtitle of your book. Good values, good character, good deeds. Yeah. My seven-year-old said to me the other day, he said, hey, dad, what do you think the worst book in our bookstore is? I mean, besides yours. And it keeps you honest. Oh my God, it's so funny. So now let me be a psychologist for a minute here. Like when you hear truth, somebody else's truth, okay? And it doesn't match, their feedback doesn't match your assessment of you or your assessment of the situation. Yeah.

Okay. What is your reflexive first response now as a, I think you're probably in your 40s or 50s, I don't know. Like, but after peeing in a couple-ifties. I don't know. Like, but after peeing in a couple of fifties, I don't have no idea. How old are you? I have no idea. I turned 37 on Sunday. Okay, good. I'm projecting because I'm 52. I am 52. And I love your response. Like, damn, I'm not that old, dude. I am. All right. So like, what is your first response when you hear truth that doesn't match the way that you're understanding something? What I've tried to get better at,

and I'm not perfect at it, and I think depending on how hungry or tired or stressed out one is, this can all change. But I've tried to get better at reminding myself that it is true to them. This is something you learn in writing. When somebody tells you something's wrong with what you're doing, they're right in that it didn't work for them. And so they're raising a red flag that there's a problem. And now it may be that they were not the intended audience for what you're doing. It may well be that there's a solution here, but it's not the solution that they think. It may well be that you just didn't explain it good enough. It could be a number of things, but they're not wrong when they say,

this isn't working for me. They're wrong if they say, this is awful. No one will like this because they can't speak to that, But it can be true for them. And so again, and I'm sure my wife would not let me get away with saying that I'm good at it, but I am trying to get better at recognizing that when someone is expressing their feelings, those feelings are true to them. And you're never going to argue them away. You're never going to argue them out of those feelings. And if you think the argument is about whether they're having the feelings or not, you're never going to get anywhere. If you could sit with a true master, who would you want to sit with?

Who? I'm writing about Lincoln a lot now in the project that I'm doing. And what I think so fascinating about Lincoln is you had this guy who experienced incredible adversity and awfulness in his life, but he had this sort of sense of humor throughout it. And at the same time, he had a kind of a sense of foreboding and darkness to him that I think allowed him to navigate and get through one of the worst moments. He was uniquely suited to lead America in the Civil War and uniquely suited to tackle the scourge that was slavery. Because although he knew it was wrong, he had a remarkable amount of empathy for the people who were inflicting that wrong, as well as an immense amount of empathy for the victims of that wrong. So he would say something like, when people would go, I don't know how these people down there are owning these slaves and doing this stuff.

And he would go, they're exactly what we would be if we were in their position. If we were raised there and came up in this system and our net worth was dependent on this system, we would obviously have the same opinion as them. And yet for all this empathy, it doesn't change his fundamental conclusion that it's a moral abomination and can't be allowed to exist. And that it was a political evil that was corrupting and destroying the country. So I guess what to me was a political evil that was corrupting and destroying the country. So I guess what to me was so fascinating about Lincoln was not just his political astuteness, but his understanding of human nature and his ability to sort of bring those two things together and to use political ends for good is a level of mastery that we don't have enough. There's a Kennedy line,

Kennedy said something like, every parent wants their child to grow up to be president, but they don't want them to be a politician. And what's so fascinating about Lincoln is that he was one of the few we've had that was both. He was both a president in the sense that he was a great man and a leader, but he was also a politician in that he was effectively able to use the levers of government to remake the country in a positive direction.

And I think that mastery is something we don't talk about enough. I don't know enough about Lincoln. So I'm looking forward to your take on him. So that's really cool. What do you want for your child or children? What are the things that you want for them? Yeah, I don't know. I think I just want them to become whatever they're meant to become. I understand the pleasures and the rewards that come from being elite at something. I also understand the costs and the compulsions that go along with it. And so I don't know if I would wish it on them, if that makes sense. I hope they find whatever it is that they want to do and they get really good at. But sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be nicer to just be a regular person. Let's say you've got lots of gray hairs, you're in your bookstore, you're 70 or 80,

or you're looking at the bookstore that you once owned and just thinking so wonderfully about it. And then you're holding hands with your bride or whatever, and you're looking back at your 30s, your 40s. And how do you want to think about this phase in your life? Ooh, that's a good question. I think when I look back at earlier phases in my life, what I tend to be struck by is the intensity of them and the degree to which a lot of that was superfluous, right? So like that things were tenser than they needed to be more stressful than they needed to be strict than they needed to be. And so I'm trying to find the right balance of how do you relax and be present and enjoy without taking it too far that you undermine it. But I think I tend to find that the degree to which I'm doing... There's a degree to which the things that you're doing are additive or

constructive. And then there's a point to which you're hitting diminishing returns or worse than diminishing returns. And finding what the right number on that dial is, is I think what I'm trying. I would like to look back on this period and be like, hey, you were closer to that. You got closer to that. That's cool. Because the default for most of us, most of us ambitious ones is to have a little bit more anxiety under the surface to as a fear of like it not working out or going to miss the moment or whatever it is to grind, to work hard, to strike while the iron's hot. There's lots of phrases that we could insert.

And so that anxiety is actually the default more so than it is the space to appreciate. Yeah. And I'm sure you've talked to many athletes who they look back and they wish they'd enjoyed it more. Yeah. That's one of the great regrets for humans, period, at the end of their life. And so we're heading into the, to the Paris games, the Olympic games. And it's always a point one, I think you'll just find this interesting. It's a decision that I make with all of my athletes and there's no right or wrong, but how do you want to approach the games? Biggest show on earth, great circus, you know,

like the big event of your life, or do you want to approach it? Like it's just another games. And philosophically, it's a good discussion, like how you want to approach it like it's just another games and philosophically it's a good discussion like how you want to approach it and again there's not a right or wrong either way i feel like i'm this will be my fifth games that i am i'm a little bit of an agitator for like hey you take a moment today you know did you take did you take a moment really kind of soak in yes um about your life and where you are right now today you know did you take it did you take a moment and really kind of soak in yes um about your life and where you are right now whether you think that the games are grand or just another game to just be right where your feet are and so like that that is feels like it's there's a scarcity to that um in my life and maybe i'm projecting it on my other on the athletes

i think that's i think that's lovely yeah so what are you trying to optimize in your life and we're rounding third base here to use a sport. Yeah. So what are you trying to optimize in your life? And we're rounding third base here to use a sport metaphor, but like, what are you trying to optimize in your life? To me, I'm trying to optimize the habit of discipline, which I have with, I'll give you an example of what I'm struggling with. Okay. Deciding, hey, this is when I start the day. This is my habit. This is my practice. This is what being a professional is. With, and sweating that because it's serious.

And going, hey, rushing school drop-off is not worth the difference between nine o'clock and 9.05 for a project you're going to work on every day for the next two years, right? And so the intensity of like, hey, I made a commitment to myself, this is what time I do this thing. And the ability to have some flexibility around that thing is a struggle that I have. So when does commitment become a kind of a compulsion and knowing the difference between those two? I'm trying to get that balance right and optimize for it better i think you're speaking to me too ryan i appreciate you man i love how you're showing up i love how you're yeah thank you and how you're committing you know to find lightning rather than lightning bugs in your writings thank you for um just being like somebody that i feel like you're in my corner, even though we don't hang on a

regular basis. And I appreciate what you stand for. I really hope that the listener right now is like, yeah, go get me that book or they've already ordered it. Right thing right now, written by you, of course. And so is there other places that you'd like to point people to? Yeah, they can go to dailystoic.com where we do one stoic inspired meditation every day. And we do a podcast also, and you've been nice enough to come on, I think twice. So, uh, they can, they can check out that interview also. Appreciate you, Ryan. Thanks, man.

You're the best. I feel like you're in my corner too. Ditto. Let's get it. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember,

no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.