Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Satya Nadella, Microsoft CEO

Episode Date: May 9, 2018

Satya Nadella needs no introduction. He and his team are guiding one the world's most significant high-tech companies. He's the Chief Executive Officer of Microsoft, and one of only three in their history.    The first time I met him (in 2014, when he was just a handful of weeks in as CEO) I was struck by how deeply he listened, his authentic curiosity to learn, and the clarity of how he organized his thoughts. It was apparent that he deeply valued, and was going to thoughtfully design, a culture at Microsoft for people to find and connect to their purpose — to experience their life efforts with deep meaning — while at the same time, holding true to their mission of empowering every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more.That is so rich. It's what we all want. To live a life of purpose and meaning — and to really make a difference with what we do, and how we do it.This conversation explores where that comes from for him.As this conversation unfolds, it became amazingly apparent that at the center of his approach is: empathy — the ability to experience what another person is experiencing, from their perspective. As most of you know, Pete Carroll and I formed the company Compete to Create to share the insights that he and I have come to understand about how to train the mind to amplify culture and performance — and it’s been a privilege to work inside the organization with the people at Microsoft who have in turn taught us so much about what it means to be great. I'm excited to introduce Satya to this community; one of the brightest minds our world has to offer. I hope you soak it up…This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.Receive a free 20-count travel pack of Athletic Greens (valued at $99) with any purchase!Claim here: athleticgreens.com/findingmastery_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Innovation in a company has to come from that deep sense of empathy because we're in the business of meeting unmet, unarticulated needs of customers. That's it. There's no way we're going to meet unmet, unarticulated needs of customers. That's it. There's no way we're going to meet unmet unarticulated needs of customers if you don't have that deeper sense of empathy. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to celebrate those

that are on the path of mastery, to understand how they view the world, to understand what they're searching for, how they make sense of events in their life, to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success.

And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals,

like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach.

And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars.

And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently

into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters.

And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Satya Nadella needs no introduction. He and his team are guiding one of the world's most significant tech companies. And he is the chief executive officer of Microsoft and only one of three in its history. And the first time I met him, it was back in 2014. I was struck by how deeply he listened, his authentic curiosity to learn and the clarity

of how he organized his thoughts. And it will just jump out of this conversation, how clear he is about that. And it was apparent that he deeply valued and was going to thoughtfully design a culture at Microsoft for people to find and connect to their purpose. To experience their life efforts and to have deep meaning. Like that was all apparent in that conversation. While at the same time, holding true to their company mission of empowering every person in every organization on the planet to achieve more. How bold is that? It's so good.

And the whole conversation, this conversation, where he's coming from, it is just really rich. I think it captures what we all want. We want to live a life of purpose and meaning and to really make a difference with what we do and how we do it. was designed to explore where that comes from for him. And as this conversation unfolds, it becomes amazingly apparent that at the center of his approach is one thing, empathy. That's it. And it is very clear. And empathy, just to have a working definition, is the ability to experience what another person is experiencing from their perspective. So to really get inside of what it feels like to be another person. Now, empathy is trainable. It is possible to train empathy. And you'll hear that from this conversation about how he cultivated a deeper empathy to be able to create the environments and the relationships that mattered most to him and could experience the most extraordinary outcomes as well. And on that thread of training

and inner engineering oneself, Pete Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks and I, we created a joint venture called Compete to Create. And the whole idea was to share the insights that he and I have come to understand about how to train the mind and how to amplify culture and performance for people that want to be great. And it's been a privilege to work inside the organization of Microsoft with the people of Microsoft who have in turn taught us so much about what it means to be great, especially great in a business frame. And I'm excited to introduce Satya to our community, one of the brightest minds our world has to offer. And I do not say that lightly. I hope you soak it up.

With that, let's jump right into this conversation with Satya Nadella. Satya, how are you? Fantastic. Thank you for having me. I've wanted to do this with you for a long time. So first, I'd like to start with a congratulations. Congratulations on your career, but congratulations on what you've done at Microsoft. And there's obviously, you know, the economic boom that you guys have seen and the growth that you've seen from your company, from Wall Street, if you will. But more importantly, the way people respect and regard

your leadership. So like from the deepest part of me, like, congratulations. No, thank you for that. I mean, obviously, you know, I've been at Microsoft for really all my life, essentially, 25 years. And the thing that I've come to realize is companies are also, like people, have a core identity. And we do well when we pick and do things that fit with our core sense of purpose. And that's really what you see us really exercising a lot more at Microsoft, being both proud of who we are and what we do, but at the same time also having a culture that pushes to learn, to renew, so that we can express ourselves and express this identity in more meaningful ways to have impact. So that is rich. Like what you just said could be dissected in 14 different ways,

but the main words about purpose and meaning, where did you come to understand that purpose is so important? Is that from your introspective arc of growth yourself? Or is that from studying people that do extraordinary things? Like, where did that come from you? I mean, quite honestly, for me, a lot of it is something that I've learned as I've grown in this company. For example, one of the things that I write learned as I've grown in this company. For example, one of the things that I write even in the book about was virtuous cycle that gets created in successful companies between the original idea or concept that you had, the capability that you built around it,

and the culture that implicitly grows. And so in some sense, you get into this amazing lock the capability that you built around it, and the culture that implicitly grows. And so in some sense, you get into this amazing lock between your concept, capability, and culture, and round and round it goes. Except there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. You run out of gas at some point on the idea or the concept. You would have had to build capability long before its conventional wisdom to go after even new ideas and new concepts. And the only thing that enables you to do that is culture. And so that's why I felt that coming in as a CEO, having grown up inside this company, I went back and essentially pattern matched and said, hey, when were we at our best and when did we go astray? And it was always when we were purpose-driven, mission-driven, and we had a culture which allowed us to build capability. And that's where we have anchored, which is we really need to have those two necessary

conditions. It's not sufficient because you ultimately have to build great products people love and what have you, but you're not going to even get to do that if you don't have a sense of purpose and a culture. Okay, so that maps almost identically to how people develop. So you're taking basically the insights on how people grow and mapping it into an organization. Like you said at the start of this conversation, that they're very much similar. Do you see that the organization has one heartbeat, one mind? Are you speaking it that way with having all the sensitivities that every human is completely individual? Are you speaking as if it was one

body? That's an interesting one. I've not thought about it as that, which is, in fact, you need an amazing amount of diversity, diversity of skills, gender, ethnicity that makes up a successful organization. Because otherwise, if you really take our mission of empowering every person in every organization on the planet to achieve more. So if you really take that to heart, then you have to represent the planet. But having said that, then you do need to come together as a collective, where that collective also has an identity. And it's captured in our mission. So, for example, when we say, wow, we want to think about people and organizations, very explicitly, that means even

in any product we create, we think about the institutions people build that may even outclass them. It comes as a first-class software construct to us. That's a collective attribute of Microsoft. Another one that's ingrained in our business model and in our mission is it's not about celebrating any technology breakthrough of ours. It's about what people do with our technology. It can be a student writing a term paper, a developer writing an application, or a small business becoming more productive, or a public sector institution becoming more efficient. That's what we celebrate, not just some technology for technology's sake. That's the we celebrate, not just some technology for technology's sake. That's the collective identity. So I think you're absolutely right in saying that what binds us, what gives us that ability to think as one, is that sense of purpose that's shared.

Okay. And then how are you, obviously, your intellect is noteworthy. Your social IQ is high. your emotional IQ is high. Of those three, and there's a purpose I want to ask this question for, which will reveal itself in a moment. Of those three, what is your crown jewel? They're all super high. I mean, it's very hard for me to sort of be objective in anything where you're talking about your own strengths. Because, you know, in an interesting way, one of the things that if you ask me, perhaps my biggest strength is the ability every day to recognize my weaknesses. I mean, it's sort of a corny way of saying it,

but it is probably what. I feel, I mean, like anyone else, I have confidence and an ego. But I think what happens, at least in my case, is I'm more willing to accept my faults and know that I'll make mistakes and not be afraid and then get better. And that has been something that's been ingrained. That's probably when I used part of even writing this book, one of the more cathartic things was to go back into how you

grew up and what was ingrained in me. And I just had this confidence of being able to admit mistakes. Where'd that come from? Because you've done a great job. And that makes you in so many ways human, because you're running this massive tech company that's changing the world. And you have this ability. I mean, it's interesting, actually. It came for surely because of the confidence that my parents instilled in me. How'd they do that? I love this thought. How'd they do that? The foundation was for them to say, hey, look, don't ever be afraid. That was the thing, which is that for them, it was about, my dad was more about

the intellectual pursuit of ideas. And my mom was about giving yourself space to see the moment, enjoy the moment. So you got both. That's right. And that is, that was to see the moment, enjoy the moment. So you got both. That's right. And that was one of the most, I mean, I look back, and especially growing up as a middle-class kid in India,

it was sort of very refreshing. When I look back at it, it was not one of these, wow, you got to go and excel at school and you got to get your grades and what have you. Whereas if anything else, it was about, hey, pace yourself. Are you really learning?

Are you really interested? It's pretty unlike what, you know, was what is at least the caricature of a middle class Indian growing up. And it just helped me, I think, to think for myself, confidence, and also, you know, cricket. In other words, I do have this thing about I play the game tape in my head. Imagery? Yeah, the imagery of performance. Like, for example, I remember even my cricket coach sort of saying, hey, every time you get hit for a six or four, because I was an off-spin bowler, and he would always say, just imagine what it would have been

if you had spun the ball a little more. And in terms of he was mostly teaching me, without all the sophistication of the words that nowadays you all have, was recovery. Because on the field, how do you quickly recover mentally so that you have the confidence going in? And those are all, like, how do you have not only the confidence going in, but you learned the right lesson.

That to me was one of the most formative things in my learning. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today

than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts,

and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3. Protein, creatine, and omega-3. And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here.

Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com and use the code finding mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spent a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest.

When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Okay. so you've done a good job of not answering your crown jewel. You know, this is the humility part of you that's wonderful.

And I don't want to pin you on it, but I want to understand, do you think or feel first, and then it's like an intuition piece, and then have to reverse engineer and use your intellect to try to solve the problem? Are you a gut feel person or more a thoughtful, analytical, strategic? And then back in the plan, let me... I think I'm analytic. I think one of the things that I do, if I don't know how it fits into the three things you said, I definitely can synthesize things that are complex.

One of the things that I've realized is, whether it's the social context or whether it's the intellectual context, you deal with complexity. And one of the skills you need is the ability to synthesize quickly. And that definitely is something that, you know, I think I do it better than average. You can't even say it. I love it. Okay.

The reason I want to ask that is because I want to try to understand your model of how you've done something extraordinary. And I think that if I understand your process well enough is that you challenge and harden ideas with your peers. And you work with them to make sure that it's a lockstep approach where they understand what you're wanting to articulate or wanting to activate. And then so you have this way that you bring people along with you. Or maybe it's their idea, but you know how to, you know, bring the entire organization along. So that's what I wanted to understand is like, is it intellect first and then intuition or intuition first and then back up to intellect? It sounds like. It's a feedback loop between the two. So I don't know what's the thing that starts. It's definitely, I don't even know whether I'm explicit about it because I definitely can

build on other people's ideas. And that's the synthesis part. But then you can add to it, because one of the things I've realized is, you know, one of the greatest powers, which is a force multiplier is to be able to take one person's idea and another person's idea and make it more powerful by bringing them together. It's not to say, I mean, you just talked about even, say, our leadership team and the dynamics. I've come to realize even four years into it how important it is to use the collective bandwidth. And that's an art, and I'm imperfect at it at best. I mean, in fact, the thing that I catch myself more often than not is showing more impatience, which is a problem because when you're impatient and you're made giant leaps,

but the team is not yet there with you, it's all to a waste. And at least what I find myself doing, perhaps, is I can at least acknowledge those mistakes, not maybe as efficiently as I should be, but I'm getting there. And that's... Can your staff do the same? Are you creating a culture where they can also raise their hand and say, hey, I made a $20 million mistake, or I made a massive mistake that caused lives, you know, jobs and whatever? Like, do you encourage that as well? I mean, I completely, in my book, that kind of intellectual honesty is something that, quite frankly, Steve and Bill, if anything I've learned from them is that. I mean, they had just such brutal intellectual honesty.

There were two people whom I could see, wow, they just would call it as they saw it. And they would be willing. If you push back and you actually were right, they'll acknowledge it. But you had to be right. So they had just, you know, I think that's something growing up at Microsoft. You could make mistakes. And, you know, some mistakes would be such that, you know, your career could be in jeopardy. But it's better for you to acknowledge those mistakes because that's how we individually get better and the company gets better.

Okay, so then trying to stitch this together with your horsepower to manage complex ideas and do it quickly. How do you create space? This is back to mom now. How did she instill the ability for you to create enough space? So let me back up in my head. There's twoill the ability for you to create enough space? Because, so let

me back up in my head, there's two basic types of thoughts, thoughts that create space. So you can play expansion, if you will, inside and thoughts that create constriction or tension. And so we need a balance of both, but if we spend too much time on constriction, we become anxious and frustrated and intolerant. And, and then we affect other people in a negative way as well because we're imbuing tension on them. The idea that you have an intuitive maybe way to create space internally and then it becomes infectious for other people to have enough space to play and explore might be one of the reasons why, one of the many reasons why you've been on this radical upswing. So can you literally deconstruct how you create space inside your own self? refreshing, something that I lean on all the time is reading. In the sense of, I read broadly. And whether it's literature or nonfiction. And that, to me, has been what has been one of the great and this is where a little bit of that intellectual, I've always described my sort of saying, hey, I love new ideas. And then I want to be able to somehow, over the years grown with it, perhaps a better sense of empathy.

What I mean by that is the ability to see more of the world through other people's eyes. And then to connect these two, the job that I've had at Microsoft all through 25 years has given me an amazing platform to be able to connect the two. And also being a parent at home has given me the opportunity to connect the two. So ideas, increasing empathy for people around me, and then to be able to, as a parent and a husband, or as a leader at Microsoft, to be able to take action on that insight. Ah, that's so rich. That to me is being super, like, that's what gives me space. That's where I get up and say, wow, I want to do something today.

That's rich. Yeah. Okay. So were you naturally born as an empathetic person? Not at all. Okay. So you had to learn that. Yeah.

Okay. So IQ, EQ, we think you can develop EQ for sure. But we think that IQ is one of the most relatively or one of the most stable constructs. Okay. So you're likely born with the ability to manage things, complex ideas quickly. EQ, maybe you've developed, but this idea of empathy, you didn't start that way. How did you get better at it? I mean, this is where, I mean, I think that there is innate capability in all of us, obviously. So the question is, how do we develop this? It's life.

So at least in my case, as I've thought about it more deeply now, it's really my life's experience, whether it's the birth of my son and what it taught me over a very arduous process, or whether it's, say, what I said at Grace Hopper, which is a massive, nonsensical answer I gave, and reflecting on that and learning from it, given me a complete fresh perspective. So it's the ability for us to basically take your own life's experience and introspect on it. That's kind of what gives you, I think, and by the way, I think of this as core to our business, because one of the things that I've been trying to make the case is, look, this empathy thing is not some nice to have. It's an existential issue for any leader. Because after all, innovation in a company has to come from that deep sense of empathy. Because

we're in the business of meeting unmet, unarticulated needs of customers. That's it. There's no way we're going to meet unmet, unarticulated needs of customers if you don't have that deeper sense of empathy. I mean, I use the word again, but it's really rich that you really care about other people. And was it the birth of your son that changed that for you, or was an accelerant to really care, to really understand what it's like to care for others at the deepest level. Before you jump into that, when my son was born, and I know that our conditions are different, I didn't know what to say for about six months. And so I'm a trusted source to many high performers, some of the tip of the arrow in many domains, and I didn't know what to say

because the world was now fundamentally different. And I know it sounds trite. Everyone has kids. I understand that. But thinking deeply, I was confused. And so I didn't say anything for about six months to find to refine my voice. And I'm happy to share that process with you. But how did that shape you and having your son and encourage or challenge? I don't know what the challenge is.

I don't have a similar family to you, so I don't know what the challenges is. I don't have a similar family to, so I don't know what the challenges are, but I'd love to learn. So for me, the birth of my son was obviously a very big change because both my wife and me were only children of our parents. So the birth of our first child was much anticipated. And even a few hours before Zane was born, if you'd asked me, hey, what are you thinking about? I was thinking about all the things that, you know, new parents or, you know, to be would be thinking about, which is, hey, when is Anu going to get back to work? What's childcare going to look like? How will our weekends change and so on? Except that night, everything changed.

He was born because of in uterus fixation with essentially cerebral palsy. And that has shaped his life. And so the first, I would say, even multiple years, I struggled with it because I felt like, wow, all of my well laid out plans were all thrown out. The kids will do that. And so therefore, that was like, and I was mostly about why did this happen to us? Why did this happen to me? How did you answer that? And so that was sort of what was going through my head.

And quite frankly, the answer for me came by observing what my wife was doing. What came naturally to Anu was as soon as she got back from the hospital after recovering, she was driving Zane up and down Seattle, trying to take him to speech therapy and occupational therapy and every therapy possible so that he could get his best opportunity. And it's only when she was doing all this work and I was more in my state of woe is when I realized that nothing happened to me. I needed to stop and see the world through Zain's eyes and recognize my responsibility in it and do what I have to do as a father.

And that I think, and this is not one profound moment, I can now recount it like that, but it was definitely not that linear a process. But it definitely changed me as who I was as a colleague or as a manager or a leader at Microsoft, and perhaps got me more to recognize, to see the world through other people's eyes. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next

day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest

and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FindingMastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now,

and what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple, and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day, and they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in, a shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products

that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So the title of your book has hit refresh and it sounds like in many ways, again, it's not a watershed moment in your life that happened in an instant, but you hit refresh on your approach to life at that moment or that phase in your life. Is it fair to say that that was at least one hitting refresh prior to

whatever came out in the book, like the insights that came out in the book and the title that emerged from there? Oh, for sure. In fact, that's a little bit of it, whether it's in our lives or whether it's in the organizations. I think we're always continuously hitting refresh. I mean, that's to me, you know, in fact, Bill in the forward to the book captures the logic that's there in our browsers when you hit refresh, which is you have to change, but you also have to be smart about what you change so that you don't unnecessarily increase the page load time.

So that means, I think, the metaphor, at least for me, has been all we've got to do is look back, whether it's at our organizational history or whether it's on our personal history, and say, what is that? We are going through a continuous process of renewal, and this continuous process of renewal. And this continuous process of renewal does have a bit of this punctuated equilibrium. There are moments in time when you actually have to acknowledge a big refresh. And that,

I think, is super important. Most people wait for a crisis because they ignore pain, they ignore pain, they ignore pain, they feel it, they make a story around it, they rationalize it, it's somebody else's fault, and they don't feel the pain. Part of the work that we've spent with you guys is helping people feel pain, and not in an aggressive way, but just feel that uncomfortableness that comes with, hey, am I really lining up my thoughts, my words, and my actions? Did you need a crisis to change? Do you think that people need crises to change? Or can we get ahead of that? I mean, the entire sort of cultural meme we picked, and obviously you work with us on this, which I hit upon in an interesting way

because of my reading of Carol Dweck's work. The reason I love that entire framing of a growth mindset is because I went on this quest for saying, what is a meme we can have for continuous process of renewal? And I said, well, the best way to think about it is learning. And this metaphor of a growth mindset is a great one to pick up as a way to, in some sense, confront your fixed mindset. So when you say pain, the everyday pain that you have to show courage against is your fixed mindset. That's what it is. I mean, sometimes at Microsoft, somebody will come to me and say, hey, Satya, we found the five people who don't have a growth mindset. I say, look, that's not the point, right? The point

is for me as a CEO every day to be able to acknowledge my own fixed mindset moments. And there are many. And then to be able to honest, thinking quickly, critically, and creatively? What do you do? Are there any practices that you have, whether the way you wake up or the way that you, I don't know if meditation or mindfulness is part of your practice or obviously reading, but that's just knowledge acquisition. Do you do anything to cultivate or to bring about your growth? The one thing, by the way, you got me doing is getting up in the morning and then putting your feet down. Like that's something that, you know, it's so simple. It's one of those things that for me, at least how I internalize it is it grounds you.

It gets you in touch with yourself and the world around. And it's fascinating. It's the one meditative thing I actually do. So I should sort of credit you for teaching me that. Yeah, that's fun. But one of the things that I would say for me, it's those moments where I can clearly think. I mean, one of the things I try to practice, or at least I try to

build more muscle around, is this thing about having confidence in yourself that you're capable of confronting your own demons, so to speak, and then avoiding hubris, right? That's the line. How do you keep at it? Keep at it. And that's, I think, what has been super helpful. Because without confidence, you can't do much. You can't motivate action because you can suddenly get into all sorts of inaction. But at the same time, if you're not learning, and so when you go in and confidently make a mistake, then you've got to be able to acknowledge that mistake. And so that's a lot of what at least I try to practice. Last question. Thank you for your time. How do you articulate,

think about, or even describe the concept of mastery? I think for me, it comes down to being in touch, deeply in touch with what gives you purpose. One of the things that I say a lot is what if you sort of took what you do at Microsoft and flipped it

and you said, hey, I don't work at Microsoft. Microsoft works for me. And that is because you are someone who has a particular passion, a particular personal philosophy, and you're able to, in fact, turn what is considered work into an instrument of you realizing the deeper meaning in pursuing your personal philosophy or passion. And to me, mastery is that, that ability to lead a more purposeful life and then take all of life and turn it into that platform because I think that's all we have. And so you might as well make use of it.

You're a legend. Thank you. I love spending time with you and these conversations are really rich. And so it's been a joy and thank you for your time. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers

you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast

and from any material on the finding mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only if you're looking for meaningful support which we all need one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional so seek assistance from your health care providers again a sincere thank you for listening until next episode be be well, think well, keep exploring.