Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Seahawks President Peter McLoughlin on Negotiation, Change, Management

Episode Date: January 4, 2017

This conversation is with Peter McLoughlin - the president of the Seattle Seahawks. When most people think of professional franchises, they think of the athletes, coaches, or general managers. I wanted to better understand what goes into running the business of an elite sport franchise and to better understand how someone switches careers after 21 years of success in one industry to another. Currently, Peter is responsible for all financial and business operations, sales and marketing, sponsorship, and administration of the Seahawks and the business operations for the Portland Trail Blazers. He also directs the management of CenturyLink Field, CenturyLink Field Event Center and WaMu Theater. Before moving to Seattle, he served as CEO of the St. Louis Blues Enterprises from 2006-10. For 21 years prior to joining the Blues, McLoughlin served in a variety of executive roles at Anheuser-Busch. From 1998 to 2006, McLoughlin was vice president of corporate media and served as an officer of the company. He negotiated media agreements with television networks that included category exclusivity in 15 Super Bowls, 10 Olympics and dominant presence in MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, NCAA and World Cup soccer telecasts. He and his wife Kelly have five children. From this conversation, I hope you learn about the art of setting a vision, risk taking, negotiation and the process of grief and loss._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I think of a negotiation we did with NBC years ago, where it was really important as part of this sports negotiation. We were buying baseball, football, NASCAR, et cetera. But the seller really wanted a commitment to primetime television of call it $10 million a year. Well, we weren't in the business of buying primetime television on a long-term basis. And I'll just remember that it didn't seem like we were going to get

a deal done. And I was there with my boss and I just said, I think what's more important to you than us buying primetime is that $10 million. We'll commit the $10 million. Every year for the next four years, that's your money. Now, we're going to agree over time to decide where we spend it. It might be in primetime. It might be in late night. It might be more sports.

It might be more NFL. But let's get this deal done. You got the money, but don't commit us to primetime. Deal got done. We left the room. My boss, my boss said to me, that was bold. Did you overstep? No, because we came away with the deal. It's all about doing the deal. You don't get remembered for the deal you lose. You don't accomplish your marketing objectives on the deal you lose. And in the sports industry that I have been in and remain in, if you lose a sports team sponsorship to your competition, you don't lose it for a year.

You lose it forever. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn, is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand their unique psychological framework, how they understand how the world works, how they understand how they work, how they explain events in their lives. And then we want to dig just a little bit deeper to better understand their mental skills that they have used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

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David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this conversation is with Peter McLaughlin. Peter is the president of the Seattle Seahawks and NFL franchise. And when most people think of professional franchises, they think of the athletes and the coaches and the general managers.

And I just wanted to better understand what goes into the business of running an elite franchise. And in this particular case, to better understand how someone switches successful careers after 21 years in one industry and then moves into a related but different industry, what that transition and risk-taking process looks like. So currently, Peter's responsible for all the financial and business operations, sales and marketing, sponsorship, and administration for the Seattle Seahawks. And he's also guiding the business operations for the Portland Trailblazers. So right now it's NFL experience as well as NBA experience. And prior to that, he was the CEO of the St. Louis Blues. So the St. Louis Blues is a hockey team in America as well. So he's got NHL, NBA, and NFL experience running organizations.

So there's a wealth of information from a business development and building perspective in sport here. But before that, for about 21 years, he served a variety of roles at Anheuser-Busch, including he was a vice president of corporate media and served as an officer of the company. So he was really doing high level business from both sides of sport, Anheuser-Busch being a preferred vendor, as well as now being the person that's really running and guiding the business operations. Okay, so there's so much information here. It's nuanced. And what I hope that we can pull and take away from this conversation is the art of setting vision, the risk grief and loss and how he has come to understand

that process. And he's got a real credible point of view about it. So more of that to come. So he's also got five children, you know, between he and his wife, Kelly. And so he's got a full life. He's got a rich perspective. And I'm looking forward to the conversations that we have afterwards. Okay.

So before we jump into the conversation, thank you all for building this community, for Finding Mastery. It's unbelievable. If you haven't been part of the community yet, punch over to our website, findingmastery.net forward slash community. And we've got a Facebook community that is private. It's unbelievable the conversations that are happening in there. And then if you want to hit us up on social, Twitter is at Michael Gervais, that's G-E-R-V-A-I-S, and Instagram is at Finding

Mastery. Okay. So without any further introduction, I hope you have a great time listening and learning from Peter McLaughlin. Peter, how are you? Good, Mike. Okay. So this is, this is going to be a treat. And what I hope that we're able to do in this conversation is to walk through the arc of your career. And let me just kind of hit off the top points really quickly. And then let's see if we can play in the transitions between the roles of influence you've had across your career. So NBC Sports, is that right? Yes. Okay. Then to Budweiser.

Right. During their heyday. And you're influential there. Then you transitioned into the St. Louis Blues to be the president there. Was there a dual role there? Yeah, I was the CEO and John Davidson, former NHL goaltender, was the president. So he did the players and I did the business. Okay, beautiful. And then now here we are at the Seattle Seahawks.

Right. Yeah. President role here. Right. Okay. All right. So that's influence. You've been at the helm of some really, um, influential either from a cultural, from a sport cultural and, or a, uh, global position with Budweiser to, um, to really have influence in, in how many people understand sport and or social life through Budweiser. Okay. So start us off. NBC, what did you figure out at NBC? What was your day-to-day kind of role and what were you figuring out there in the early

years of your career? Well, it was interesting. I was a sports writer for the Harvard Crimson, and I wasn't good enough athlete to play on the varsity teams there, but I wanted to stay connected to varsity sports, so I became the writer for the paper. What was the sport you were most interested in? Ice hockey and lacrosse, equally. And I also knew, thanks to good advice from my parents, that I would graduate college in four years and I would be independent upon graduation. So there was a survival instinct kicking in that I needed a place to live in a income to live on. And, uh, my parents also gave me really good advice that to go to work every day, you have to find something you're passionate about. You know,

don't just take any old job to get the paycheck. You got to get up in the morning, be excited and love what you're doing. Was that a guiding thought throughout high school? No, it was more college. Once you got into college? Yeah. College was a stepping stone to life and I didn't know what my life was going to be. I had no idea what I guess, winter of my senior year, I literally sat in a chair

in my dorm room for a couple hours a day thinking, what am I going to do when I get out of school? How am I going to earn a living? What do I want to do most importantly? And then it was like an epiphany sports. I have to do something in sports. I love sports. I love to play sports. I love to watch sports. I love to read about sports. I'm interested in all things about sports. And then I said, oh, well, I've got this portfolio of articles I've been writing for the Harvard Crimson. So that gives me something that maybe commercially I can take to the market.

And so I wrote a bunch of letters and sent out resumes with articles to major sports or major newspapers around the country. And I don't recall hearing back from any of them. And so I said, okay, well, that was, you know, that was an effort. And then my father said, you know, you know, my father was in the packaged goods industry in New York and worked with an advertising agency. And he said, why don't you come to New York and meet with some of the people at this ad agency I work with because they all advertise our products on television and maybe there's a transition somehow through television. And so that got me into ultimately an interview situation with NBC. And so I'll never forget it. After interviewing with NBC in New York with the vice president of finance and administration, he was hiring for a position called sports unit manager, which was the person

who would go on the road with the announcers and the production crew, arrange for the hotel rooms, the rental cars, the flights, the catering at the site, make sure the truck had a place to park at the stadium or arena, that power was on, that all the crew had credentials, and you were just sort of the local logistics guy. So that didn't really sound that interesting to me, but that's what the job was. And so I went back to school and a couple of days later, you know, got a phone call in my dorm room and they offered me the job. And I said, well, can I take the weekend to think about it? I want to talk to my parents about it. And I took the weekend, I took the job. So I went to NBC Sports in New York right after graduation and started on a Monday. And that weekend, I was in Toronto working a

Toronto Blue Jays baseball game with Joe Garagiola and Tony Kubik. And I was shadowing somebody else in this job. And I did that for four years. And I loved every minute of it. I was on the road every weekend. I was on the road about 120 days a year. I got really good at booking hotel rooms and flights and working with union crew, a lot of whom were Korean War vets. And I'm this young kid out of Harvard and had to learn how to deal with the union mentality and, you know, those guys and became friendly with them. And I was kind of in an odd isolation zone because the union guys all stuck together, the producer, the director stuck together, the announcer stuck together. And I was none of those. How do you manage that lonely position? And I think that that's actually going to be an interesting conversation with a different context later

in your life. Cause sometimes people of influence and power, if you will, they, where do they sit? You know, who do they talk to? And so, but just at the beginnings, you were learning something about not quite fitting in with the other circles of, uh, or groups of people. So how did you manage that? Well, I've always gotten along well with other people. I'm not easily intimidated and I'm not, you know, uh, other people seemed like spending time with me. So I did have a lot of dinners alone on the road cause you know, the union guys would go off and you know, I just go down to the hotel restaurant and bring a sports illustrated and eat and read on my own. But over time, you know, I've made some relationships there,

but being alone has never bothered me. It doesn't bother me. Are you more of an introvert or an extrovert? Do you prefer to think and swallow, if you will, and digest information before you move it out of your head? No, I think I'm probably more extroverted. More extroverted. So you're thinking while you're talking? Yeah.

On the fly and just processing. You like to be around people and that energy. Okay, there you go. I'm more extrovert. So anyway, I did this job being on the road every weekend. And I ultimately thought it was really cool. Because my job was the setup and the breakdown and then the financial reporting of the expenses. During the live telecast, which was what I was there for. I really didn't have a job. So I would sit in the truck or in the broadcast booth and enjoy the game, enjoy being part of a live production. And then the game would end everybody, all the talent would run away to go

home and the crew and I would stay and break things down. So I did that. Um, but I had an epiphany or a realization that I didn't want to live my life in a production truck every weekend. I really wasn't going to be, oh, there's the client from Coca-Cola, and there's the client from Budweiser, and there's a client from Visa, and there's the salespeople that negotiate the advertising buys that those companies would do. And I said, well, that sounds interesting. That's more the business of sports

versus the production of sports. And a job called sales planner became available. I interviewed for it, even though I had no sales experience and I got that job. Is that, was that a, on the totem pole of jobs in sales? Is that high? Is that low? Is it the very bottom? Very bottom.

The very bottom. So you go to one of the best universities in the world and you started in a job that didn't sound ultimately exciting for your level of education to move into two positions that were at the bottom, if you will. And maybe that's too aggressive, but like entry level is probably the way to think about that. Definitely entry level. But I was okay with that because I sort of looked at it from the perspective of, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And I knew I didn't know these jobs. So I had to go in there and learn them. And learn them.

Okay. And so I was kind of learning along the way. And the sales planner job gave me the opportunity to sort of learn the mechanisms of the media business. Okay. Can I put a quick pause in there? Yeah. Because you hit two things that I missed one and I want to go back a little bit. And then you're hitting something on learning that is important. So let me just put a pause if we can on learning, because I want to know

what you're learning now as well. Right. So you've had this ascension of influence in sport and business. And if learning was important, then what is, what are you learning now is kind of like an arc. And then let's go back to that first epiphany in your dorm room. Do you remember that? Or like I'm sitting there today. You do. Okay. Can we unpack that experience a little bit? Because the idea of having an epiphany and then taking action on it, I think that those two parts are really important. Many people might not have an epiphany or they've had it, but then haven't taken action on it. And you had both. And it sounds like you did that lonely work or that alone work to sit and reflect

and maybe write or just contemplate, what am I doing with my life? Where am I going? Aha. And then you took some action. So can you go back to that aha? Well, while it was a life changing epiphiphany if you will it was also just a next step in the continuum of life right you know you go to first grade and you have to do your homework and you go to second grade you know i was a boy scout and i became an eagle scout and i had to get five merit badges to be star and 10 to be life and 21 to be eagle. You just put one foot in front of the next. So I knew I was going to graduate college and I knew I needed a job and I knew I had to explore within myself a field that I would be interested in. And so it was a combination of a process of

elimination and realizing what I was passionate about. And then how do I go about finding a job? Why sport? It just was pure to me. It was – it's what I love. I love to play ice hockey. I love to play lacrosse. I love being around the guys. I love to win. I love overcoming losing and trying to win the next time. You ever had that happen?

Yeah, I have. You know, at Y Sport, I don't know. And yet that has been sort of the thread throughout my professional life. I mean, I boil it down. It's simplistic, but I've worked in television, beer, and sports my whole life. It's kind of fun. That sounds like a man cave. Yeah. You're right. Yeah.

Oh, my God. So the epiphany was really more task-oriented. I need to go to the next step. How do I get there? Well, first you have to decide what you want to do. I don't know how to decide that. I know I love sports, so maybe there's something there. Maybe I can find something there. Did you ever have, and I'm asking this because I never had this thought, um, about 10 years or 20

years down the line, what I would be doing. I've never had that experience. Never. Yeah. Okay. So when you were there and you said epiphany sport, I love sport. Let's get involved in it in some kind of way. And then you like a mechanical next step was to um go pursue jobs or accept job yeah okay did you ever think that you'd be running a franchise and a world leading franchise that was not never no i i i thought i would do what a lot of people do, which is get up and go to work every day, work really hard. I love this. Earn enough money. I've never been overly focused on what I make and accumulating.

Earn enough money to live a good quality of life, raise a family, and just sort of see where it all goes. And my parents were, you know, my, my example in that, you know, my dad, uh, got up every morning, took the early train into Manhattan, came home late at night and just got up and did it again the next day. You know, I love this is I think that there's this idea, um, because people see famous people on TV or people that are highly talented on TV or on stage that they were groomed for it. That their grandparents passed on some special information to their parents and the parents passed on some special information to the kids. And then that kid turned into an adult and they've like, not magically, but somehow become exceptional.

I don't know. My experience has been that there is genetic coding that we need to pay attention to, especially for performance. However, there's also this idea of one foot in front of the other, maximize this next step, and then maximize the next, literally next small step, which is a day-to-day thing, not this big concept of steps, right? The small steps turn into big steps. Is that what it feels like to you? Yeah, absolutely.

And there are times during the process where I wondered what would come next. There were times when I thought, I've been doing this too long. This isn't enough. But I didn't know what the next step was. I always thought opportunity might knock, but there were times when opportunity would knock. I'd open the door and see what was there and I'd close the door. So that's not the right opportunity. And how would you base that decision? Was that a feeling? Was it analysis of trajectory? What is the skill

set that you're good at to be able to make great decisions or good decisions? It's a combination of trusting yourself and getting some input from others. So, okay. So how do you learn? I'm going to keep pulling on this if we can. How do you know how to trust yourself? How have you learned to develop that? Well, it's gotten better as I've gotten older. Has it? Oh yeah. I've gotten, uh, I've gotten more connected to who I am and what I think is right and what is important to me as I've gotten older. You know, I was youngest of four kids. I think there is something to that. Uh, I had a lot of people telling me for a long time, this is what you should do. And I was youngest of four kids. I think there is something to that. I had a lot of people telling me for a long time, this is what you should do. And I was really good at doing that.

So sort of breaking away from that, that was important. But, you know, I was six and a half years at NBC, four in this production unit manager job, one and a half in this sales planner job. And I was ready for the next step. I wanted to become a salesperson and account executive to make more money. I was married and had a kid at that time. And I remember I had a conversation with the president of NBC ad sales, the whole thing, primetime news, sports, the works. And I said, Bob, I'm ready. I want to be a salesman. And he said- How old are you at this time? 28. Okay. So this is a big deal. And he said. How old are you at this time? 28. Okay.

So this is a big deal. You're going to the head boss and say, I want to do more. Yeah. I asked for a meeting and I want to talk to him about it. And he said, well, you know, Peter, you might make a good salesman someday. I'm not sure you're ready yet. But if you want to be really good in this business, I would recommend you consider two things. Either go work for another company that advertises in sports, go work for the client, or go work for an advertising agency that buys advertising time for sports advertisers, and then come back to us and you'll be so much better as a salesperson.

And I went home that night and said, I either got the greatest advice that someone could give me, in which case I'm going to have to make some big decisions here. Or I was told in a very nice way that I'm not cutting it. You got one foot out the door. Read between the lines here. Yeah. Okay. So was it good advice? It turned out to be great advice. Because then you went to Budweiser. Then between the lines here. Yeah. Okay. So was it good advice? It turned out to be great advice.

Because then you went to Budweiser. Then I went to Budweiser. Okay. How did you make that decision? So you're listening to this information. I'm not sure exactly how to read it. And then did you go try to find one of those two positions or the opportunity to knock? So I went to St. Louis. I was married to someone at that time who was originally from St. Louis and wanted to go back to St. Louis. So that made it – there was some focus there.

And I interviewed with local radio stations, local television stations because I had this media experience from NBC. And while I was in St. Louis, someone said, I know someone at Anheuser-Busch you should go talk to. And then that's out the door at Anheuser-Busch. Was Anheuser-Busch at that time the massive company that it is? Yeah, it was a very interesting time. I would say that 1985 Anheuser-Busch's national market share was probably 37%, 38%. Miller Beer was owned by Philip Morris, so there was this big beer war going on. There was a lot of concern at Anheuser-Busch at that time that Philip Morris would use all the tobacco money to fuel the engine of beer for Miller to combat Anheuser-Busch.

But yeah, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. August Bush III was the chairman. His father, August Bush Jr., was still around. It was a big company town in St. Louis, and they were the big powerhouse. Okay. And was it entry-level, mid-level? Did you get a springboard at that point? Yeah. So I took a job that was then called manager of media services. So I was one of four or five managers reporting to a director who reported to a vice president of corporate media. And our job was to work with all the advertising agencies who did the media plans and the media buying for all the brands, Bud, Bud Light, Michelob, Bush, et cetera. Okay. So we were kind of the in-house people that work with the agency people.

So while I had a manager title, it was just a notch above. It wasn't interest level. It was manager level. Okay. Okay. And a big transition that happened there was that I was manager of local sports team sponsorships, which was really cool. So Anheuser-Busch sponsored as many professional sports teams across all the leagues around the country on local TV, local radio, stadium signage, logo rights to use in

packaging and point of sale. And I was responsible in working with the agency to negotiate those deals. And I found after about a year of just sort of observing and learning and being in the room that suddenly I became the negotiator. I was the one making the presentation and getting into the back and forth. And it's just something that came to me. I became really good at manipulating math and sort of the power. I thought you were going to say manipulating people. No, that using the math of media, the media math in my head to put together a logical negotiating strategy that was understandable to the seller that was kind of

irrefutable in terms of the math logic. And then we were able to get to a conclusion quickly. Oh, I love this. Is this what you're good at? Yeah. That's the thing you're good at right there. That's the thing I'm good at. Okay. So you tripped into it. You didn't know that that was your thing. No. Oh, my hair's starting to stand up. So, okay, let's go back and stay on this for just a moment if we can. I want to get really clear that the thing that maybe you understand most or are best at is using sound logic with math and understanding other people's desires and needs and putting those three things together to communicate to others how a relationship makes sense. Over time. So this, this started in 1985. I probably started getting pretty good at it in 1987. I got to be probably better at it, you know, in 88, 89. And then in the early 1990s, my boss and I, his name is Tony Pontura, who I worked for for 21 years. At Budweiser.

At Budweiser, put together this plan, encouraged by August Bush III to create something called the Bush Media Group, where we eliminated all of our relationships with the advertising agencies, doing the media planning and media buying for all the beer brands and ultimately the Anheuser-Busch theme parks, SeaWorld and Busch Gardens. And we did it all ourselves. So it was like a spinoff. It was a spinoff within the company. And we're talking about $500 million plus a year of media planning and buying responsibility. And so as a still relatively young man in my late 30s, we are going independent. With a $500 million responsibility?

Yeah. Already Bush Media Group had been established in New York City for dealing with the television networks. And you were spending money. Spending. We were buyers. Yeah. We were buyers. Yeah. We were buyers. So then we created something called the Field Media Group, which was 10 regional offices around the country to buy local radio, local outdoor, local print, working with the wholesalers on their media strategies. And then we brought in this local sports group, spot TV, outdoor, print, ultimately internet, the whole thing.

And we were doing ourselves. And on the negotiation front, it got to the point where in my mind, whether it was a million dollar deal or a $25 million deal, I knew what the seller was going to ask for. I knew what we were going to counter with. I knew what their next move was going to be. I knew what our next move would be. I could see where the finish line was before the negotiation started. You wouldn't always get to that exact same spot, but if you know what both sides think is right going into it, you can get there a lot quicker. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

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Okay. So negotiation can have an ugly term to it and never not, not for you. That's because it doesn't seem that way to you feel like you really embrace negotiation. Can you teach me about it? Cause, um, let me, let me share one thing is that it feels like when I spend time with people that in some way we're, I'm working to understand where a person's coming from and I want to meet them right there. At the same time, I have this idea based on what they've been hinting at of who they want to become. And there seems to be a negotiation process that takes place now that we're not doing money negotiations, but there's a negotiation between letting go of who I am now that's not working and grabbing the vine, if you will, if there's an analogy there of who I want to become and negotiating that they can do it and

helping them figure out ways and reasons and practices that allow them greater certainty to make that step. So when you think about negotiation, because money can be really emotional for people. And maybe it's not in business. It's less so in business because it's not really your money, yet you guard it as if it's your money. Okay. So teach about negotiation. I'd love to learn this. Well, the fascinating thing about the network television business and then the media business generally is you've got these two groups of people. You've got the buyer and the seller, and they have a common goal, right? So take a television network that has the rights to NFL football and the Super Bowl. They've got 60 commercials a game.

They've got to sell at a price to be able to pay for the production, turn a profit, and make the shareholders happy. Well, you've got this advertising community, of which Budweiser was a big part, that has an equal goal, to buy a certain amount of the inventory, to advertise its brands. And in our case, when I was with AB, we always want to be the exclusive beer sponsor of the Super Bowl on the network telecast. So there's this commonality of interests. You want to sell it? I want to buy it. Okay. That's a really good starting place for negotiation. So now what's the value proposition?

Well, there's an industry metric that we all live by called Nielsen television ratings. Is that still relevant now? Yep. It is. So we know what NFL football ratings will be against men 18 to 49 or households or whatever. And now we negotiate the value proposition therein. And so as long as you have another party that really wants to sell what they're selling and you have a party that wants to buy it, there's always a common ground to get there. And what was fascinating about the television network business at that time is there were no contracts.

So this community of buyers and sellers was the foundation was built on trust. There's trust. If I tell you as a representative of Anheuser-Busch that I'm going to pay you X for that, you're going to get paid. And if you tell me as the seller that you're going to sell it to me for that, that's what you're going to bill me. And if there's an audience delivery that's guaranteed or expected, you're going to make good on that audience delivery. So if the game falls short on the rating, you'll give me something else in exchange, all based on trust. And that's how that industry works. And it's part of what's fun. So you're part of a brotherhood of trust. And it's really fun to be a part of it.

Is that still the case now? Yes, it is. It's probably gone to contracts. You know, this corporate ownership of these networks has evolved and changed. But the negotiation process and the deal-making process is the same. Okay. Something just happened that people can't see is that when you're talking about the negotiation process, it's like you're anchored and you really understand that. I'm sure it translated in your voice. And then when you talked about the brotherhood, you lit up. So is that – which is more rewarding for you? Is it the skill of being really good at the engagement of like-minded people to create something that both parties want, the negotiation process? Or is it being part of a brotherhood of people that are able to do challenging things? You know, they're completely interconnected.

So what I've said for a long time is the way I get to know people in this business is sitting across the table from them and cutting a deal. And once we do that together, and if you like the other person, we're friends. And what happens in this business, there's a repetition to it because you do a five-year deal. And at the end of the four and a half years in, you start doing the next deal. And it's the same person and you're still there and there's a relationship that is built over time. And, you know, you make friends this way. Okay. If you could string together all of the deals and negotiations you've ever done

and kind of make it into one, which I know is not really a realistic, um, thing that we can do, what would be the most important, the most exciting and the most difficult moments in real, in the negotiation strategies? And this is an N of one for you, all of your experiences. There's always a point in time in a negotiation where you feel like you're at loggerheads. It's a stalemate. The seller's not willing to drop the price any further and we're not willing to spend any more for budgetary or other reasons. Finding a creative solution to that is exhilarating. It's exhilarating.

And I think of a negotiation we did with NBC years ago where it was really important as part of this sports negotiation. We were buying baseball, football, NASCAR, et cetera. But the seller really wanted a commitment to primetime television of call it $10 million a year. Well, we weren't in the business of buying primetime television on a long-term basis. And I'll just remember that it didn't seem like we were going to get a deal done. And I was there with my boss and I just said, I think what's more important to you than us buying primetime is that $10 million. We'll commit the $10 million. Every year for the next four years, that's your money.

Now, we're going to agree over time to decide where we spend it. It might be in primetime. It might be in late night. It might be more sports. It might be more NFL. But let's get this deal done. You got the money, but don't commit us to primetime. Deal got done. We left the room. My boss, my boss said to me, that was bold.

Did you overstep? No, because we came away with the deal. It's all about doing the deal. You don't get remembered for the deal you lose. You don't accomplish your marketing objectives on the deal you lose. And in the sports industry that I have been in and remain in, if you lose a sports team sponsorship to your competition, you don't lose it for a year. You lose it forever. Boy, okay. Hold on to it. Yeah. Okay. All right. It's like the NFL leaving St. Louis. The NFL. Once you lose a team, you lose it. Maybe for, yeah, maybe, maybe forever. Like LA got a team back. LA got that

team back. And we're talking about the Rams. Yeah. All right. All right. Uh, last thing on, on negotiation is that how can you teach me to be a better negotiator? Whether that's in financial or economic structures or just in life? It's all about win-win. Both parties have to feel they got what they wanted fairly. And if that happens, it's a great thing. You go out and celebrate. If someone feels like they got taken advantage of or someone feels like they were treated poorly or they gave up too much in exchange for too little that's a bad deal what happens for me often is that i tend to over

index on the future and under index on um kind of said value now right so i'll i'm an optimist i like to think about the future and i like to think that partnerships are going to work and so i feel like oftentimes i'll take it on the come and i'll say, okay, next deal will be great. Yeah. It'll turn into something that we'll leverage, that we can both leverage for good, you know, in the future. Well, you're a long-term thinker. Yeah. So, but sometimes that doesn't do well for now, you know, so. Well, you know, in the sports business, in the media business, there's always an ebb and flow, right? Sometimes you're paying too much because something happened that caused the value to under deliver. But if you do, if you think about the long term, you're going to make it up.

Yeah, it seems that way. Are you more of a long term as well? Like you think about the next three deals or? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Oh, for sure. Okay.

You got to think ahead. You got to be ahead. And how do you think about competition? Because there's obviously two ways to think about it. And I know we've talked a lot about the ethos of competition, the way that Coach Carroll thinks about competition, which is striving together. Was Budweiser striving together or was it a compete against? We were striving together as a group of people within a company to beat the competition. So the emphasis was on being better than others.

Yeah. And then, you know, our competition was Miller. It was Coors. It was Heineken. And if the, if there was a entity or a property or something that we all, we'll all want it. Our job was to go get it and prevent them from getting it. Was it a different spirit of competition than what's happening at the Seattle Seahawks, which is let's maximize us, let's be the best version of us, and the outcomes will take care of themselves? That's a good question.

We knew we had the resources and the relationships and the desire and the support from senior management to, to go get done what we needed to get done. So we just, we went out and got it. Yeah. Dominant players in that, in that space. What was it like towards the end of your career? 21 years at Budweiser. Things became repetitive. Um, you know, I remember saying to friends and colleagues, if I have to negotiate another Detroit Pistons deal, I'll go crazy because things don't change that much. Um, so I, I think 21 years is a long, long time to be somewhere. And I was really thankful when the opportunity came along. And so you were ready.

I was totally ready. You were ready for something different. I was totally ready. massive, you know, global company to go to a local, maybe, I don't know if I want to call it struggling, privately owned hockey team. Like walk us through that transition. Yeah, it was, it was fascinating. So I was offered the position of CEO of St. Louis Blues Enterprises, which was, I think, a fancy way of saying you're going to be running the business operation. And John Davidson was becoming the president of the hockey team. And so it was July of 2006. And one day I took a different exit off the highway.

Instead of going down to the brewery, I went down to what was then the Savas Center. And I met the management staff of the Blues in a conference room at ice level, underground, no windows. And this was a team that had finished in last place in the NHL the prior year, the year following a lockout where there had been no hockey for an entire season. And new ownership was coming in. And I knew I had my work cut out for me. And it was a little scary. But it was also thrilling at the same time because I'd wanted a change. And this was the change that I was given the opportunity.

I was given the title of CEO, which is a pretty lofty title. I still had kids in high school, so I got to stay in town for them to finish high school. And so it met a lot of needs. Personally, I had no idea what it was going to lead to or where it was going to go. I found out later that friends of mine who are in the sports team business were very worried about me, concerned for me, making that transition from Anheuser-Busch to the Blues. People before me and others had made that move and not succeeded, which would have been pretty devastating from a career standpoint. At 21 years, was there a package that were you leaving something on the table at Budweiser?

Like a 21-year career feels like – I don't know. I don't know this well enough. But like 25 years is – people have a retirement package or a parachute. Yeah. I mean Anheuser-Busch was certainly a company that rewarded age and longevity. Yeah. And I think the magic number was 30 years of service and 55 years of age and older, and I missed on both of those. So yeah, I certainly took a risk.

Are you a risk taker? No, I don't think so. I don't see myself that way. Because this feels like a risk-taking move. This was the biggest risk I ever took. This was it? Yeah, I think so. But as a 21-year person at ABI, I was considered's a really interesting to think

about. Do you stay somewhere, stay, stay, stay more and more and more years to accumulate that retirement package or to, you're still, you know, you're in a safety net. Do you stay in the safety net? I think this is a really important question because so many people- Or do you jump? That's right. And the idea that I've got too much hay in the barn to leave now is a real thought for me and for so many people. And then we argue our way out of being able to take a step to try that passion project. And you loved sports, you loved hockey. It's right there to be in a position of influence sounded exciting and daunting. But there was real risk.

I honestly didn't think twice about the decision until after I left and was there. I had to do it. It was for me. Wait, what does that mean, I had to do it? I felt I was stagnating. I had great appreciation and respect for my boss at AB. He wasn't leaving. Why would he leave?

He had a great job. He had a better job than me. And so I was settling. I was settling to be the number two guy. There's nothing wrong with that. Being number two is pretty good. A lot of good things come with it. And one thing you learn when you become the top guy, there's a lot more pressure on the top guy than there is on the number two guy.

And I didn't really appreciate that until I became the top guy. But I just – I don't consider myself hugely ambitious and I don't consider myself impatient. I mean 21 years. But I had to go. I had to try something new. I love that had to, and because there's nothing desperate in the, what you're saying. It was like, I knew it was, it was really clear. It was, it was time to go.

It was time. And I, I felt that in a couple of projects that I've been part of. And when that happens, that's why I'm excited about this. It's really clear. It's clear. And, but to take action on it requires kind of a different set of skills, if you will. Some of it is like a treasure chest. So you're, you have a few months or a few years or whatever it is to weather the bad storm. That's just basic

entrepreneurship. And sometimes you're not afforded that treasure chest. And so you got to do it on nickels rather than dollars. And then the other is the kind of the psychological or mental skills to negotiate through this risk process. So what are some of the skills you learned there? Well, it's interesting because the few people I confided in that I was doing this told me not to do it. Oh, so your peers said don't do this. Well, I kept things in the real QT. My wife, Kelly, who is my second wife, was very encouraging. But I got an employment

agreement. So I hired an attorney to help me with the employment agreement. And so I'm talking to an attorney in St. Louis, the company town, about leaving Anheuser-Busch to go to the Blues. And the guy was literally, all he was tasked to do was negotiate, not negotiate that I hadn't negotiated my own terms, write it up. And he was like, you're crazy. You don't want to do this. That'll instill some fear in you. Yeah. So. So how'd you do, how'd you do that? And I've asked how, like 20 times too, but because what you did is exceptional in this transition process. Like you've gone for it a couple of times and then – I think I said a while back that I grew up the youngest of four kids and I got pretty comfortable with people telling me what I should and shouldn't do and doing that.

And I was becoming that person that said, no, I need to do what I want to do. And that's empowering, that's maturing. And I had what either media wants us to become or our family wants us to become. And to do that lonely work, which you did in the dorm room in some respects about passion forwards, but not necessarily who you are. The who you are started to come later, it sounds like, like who I want to be rather than who others want me to be. Well, it's interesting. There have been moments, you know, I haven't made that many transitions in my moments in my life. But those moments where I've made the decision to make the transition, I've done it completely independently. Like I remember telling, calling my father, who's a new, you know, born and raised New Yorker, that I was leaving New York to go to St. Louis to go to work for Anheuser-Busch. And he was like, you're doing what? Now he had worked at Procter & Gamble before he got married

for a few years. So he goes, okay, I get the Midwest a little bit, you know, but I, there's times where I think if you feel the need to ask other people advice, you might get overly influenced by what they have to say. Do you do that now as well? When you think about a strategy forward or an idea that you want to, you know, incubate, do you think about it alone or with one or two other people? You know, work related thing or private. You know, I think from a work perspective, I tend to have some real clarity on things I want to do and I want to accomplish, but I know I can't accomplish them alone. So then I go to colleagues and say, here, here's what I'm thinking. Let's collaborate on this. Let's work on this together.

Here's the how question again. How do you get the clarity? Is this writing? Is this thinking? Is it quiet space? Pretty much all of my really good ideas come to me from that weird transition of waking up to becoming fully awake and getting ready for the morning. Oh, really that sunrise to getting out of your bed yeah i it literally i mean if you talk to my my team here um a lot of times i assemble them as soon as i get in and say here's what we're gonna do so that's how you get because sometimes it's easy for us to forget what those brilliant so to speak ideas are no i don't i don't. Okay. Do you write it down or do you rehearse it until? No, for some reason I have a really good memory. Yeah. So I just remember stuff. Okay. I don't, I rarely write things down. Okay. Yeah. Really? So you're not a note taker? No. I'm a listener. And then what do you do with the information when you're listening? Process it.

You know, think about whether it's actionable. But I just, I don't, I mainly just store it away. Okay. So I just remember stuff. Yeah, good. That's probably one of the genetic codings that has afforded you success. Yeah. Yeah, that's wonderful. Okay.

Particularly numbers, which is odd. I don't forget numbers. Well, that's part of what you're best at, if you will, like using logic and numbers to understand what both parties want. I love it. All right. That's making negotiation really more simple for me as well. So now you're in the blues, CEO, running the business side of it. And the company is not, it's not like a gamechanging company or franchise in hockey. No. So it's probably the third team in St. Louis.

The St. Louis Cardinals are everything. It's a religion there. Second most World Series championships after the Yankees in all of baseball. The NFL is the NFL and the Rams are there. They won a Super Bowl against Tennessee with Kurt Warner at quarterback. And the Blues have had a nice history and they've been there 40 plus years, but never won a cup. And so it was the third team. But it was a big opportunity to learn, learn how to run a sports team from the business perspective, re-engage fans.

We had 5,000 season tickets sold. Can't survive on that. Had a 20? Was the stadium a 20? Yeah. So we had to just really do a lot of blocking and tackling to get the business back on a solid footing. And we accomplished a lot. Do you invest in getting a winning team or do you invest in strategies to get people in the doors with the team that you have? And maybe it's a dual process, but which one would you index more on? Yeah. Well, I have a philosophy, even though I've only been running sports teams for 11 years now or 10 years, that neither team performance nor the economy can affect how we run the business

because you can't count on that. Because economy ebbs and flows and so does team performance ebbs and flows. So it's independent. So running a company, a franchise is independent of both. You've got to convince the fans that the value proposition of coming to our games is an entertainment tool. It's a, it's a corporate entertainment tool. It's a fun thing to do independent of team winning or losing. This is your same strategy in negotiations across tables with one-on-one is using logic. Convincing is the word. Selling a story and getting people to part with their money, if you will, to make a choice about entertainment.

And this is the right place to make entertainment. So, okay. All right. How do you do that? Yeah, it's tough. You know, it's tough. You know, it's tough. But I think, you know, people are – you can convince people. Because this is basic business 101, isn't it? I think it is. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I think it is. You know, I knew from living in St. Louis for 20-plus years that there was a good fan base there for hockey. And, you know, there've been several ownership transitions, the owner that, that the group that I was a part of bought from, um, you know, made a bunch of mistakes, didn't, didn't engage the community or the fans, the corporate community or the fans. And so people walked away and, and then the, then there was a lockout and And right after the lockout,

the prior owner said, we're going to sell. We're going to get out of this. And then the group from New York bought it and they hired me. And they hired John Davidson, who was a great spokesperson for the team, had been originally drafted by the Blues. So I just looked at the potential. All we got to do is get 18,000, 19,000 people in the building every night. And you're going to do it one day at a time. As we said back then, brick by brick. We're going to build this house brick by brick. So you meet with the corporate leaders and ask for their support.

We did this phenomenal marketing campaign called We Want You Back. And it was literally written from the perspective of Romeo wooing Juliet. It was a script that players on the team, hot dog vendors, me, the team owner, people all throughout the organization would read the script and we edited it to present this ad where all of us as Romeo were wooing the fan as Juliet, please come back. It's a new beginning. This is a new opportunity to love the blues again. We're sorry for the past. We've made mistakes. We're going to get better. We're young. Come grow with us. Be a part of it. And it was really compelling. And in St. Louis, where you are humble and say, we're not perfect, but we're one of you and we want you to be a part of this and we're fun and

it's new and there's hope and it's the middle of winter and there's nothing else to do, come back. And it built and it built and it built and it built. And it was really kind of challenging and fun to be a part of. And in the meantime, it was a struggle financially. And there was a lot of pressure building blocks of how to run a team from the full revenue and expense P&L perspective. And then a lot of pressure was put on the ownership group due to the financial struggles. And I could see coming a future sale and I knew that wouldn't bode well for me. And so my, cause they'd bring in their new guy, whoever the new owner would be, would bring in the new guy. And so my, my, you know, my survival, survival instincts kicked in

and I, uh, quietly contacted four really close friends in the business and said, I made the big move from AB. I've learned a lot. I like being on the team side. Keep your eyes and ears open for me in case something comes along. And then shortly thereafter, my predecessor here resigned to go to the Tampa Bay Lightning. And I then got a call from Jed Hughes, who's the search firm expert in the world of sports and was invited into this interview process and it all worked out. Yeah, that did work out, didn't it? So Seattle Seahawks. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. And at the Seattle Seahawks, these transitions that you've been through, what have you learned about mastery? What have you learned about true high performance and the pursuit of high performance from this organization and your experience here guiding and shaping as opposed to all of your, I don't know, 30 some years in former positions of influence. Well, you know, and you think of the perspective that when Pete Carroll and John Schneider and I came here, they in early 2010, me in September of 2010, you know, a lot of the same challenges that I've been discussing were here.

You had a team that had losing season a couple, a couple, three years in a row. Financial performance wasn't where it needed to be. And there was a lot of opportunity to improve. And I think Pete saw that and John saw that in terms of player personnel and the team performance. I saw that in looking at the financials. We were under index where we should be on sponsorship revenue, ticket revenue, suite revenue.

And I think we individually and collectively kind of embraced this opportunity We were under indexed where we should be on sponsorship revenue, ticket revenue, suite revenue. And I think we individually and collectively kind of embraced this opportunity as one where we can make a lot of improvement and a lot of impact. And I think the community wanted us to improve and lead the way. I think the staff wanted to improve and wanted us to lead the way. And so we had a receptive environment and a receptive organization. And I think it just all came together beautifully. Okay. And then if this is, I think this is a really challenging question. And so let's see if we can kind of work our way through it. And typically I ask a lot of questions around this question. But in the sake of time and your big engine of brainpower, maybe you can just kind of go to the center of this. Is there a guiding philosophy or a set of principles that guide your life?

Have you organized in some kind of way a philosophy that has been congruent or makes sense to you now? You know, I don't think I'm fully developed on that. You know, I've been really focused in my work life on approaching things from a perspective that there's nothing that can't be accomplished, that there are no goals that can't be achieved if we all work together. And I think I really believe in collaboration. I really believe in good communication. And I say to people all the time, you know, for us to be our best, we have to communicate, communicate, communicate upward, across and down. We're a team. And so if we're all on the same page,

and if we're all working together for the same objectives, we can't be beaten. So are those the guiding thoughts that allow you to think big? If we do things together, amazing things can take place, whether they're, use the word goals and objectives, that if collaboration, communication, amazing, are the beginnings of amazing things taking place. Now you still have to think about it and execute, but is that sound close to? Yeah, I think that's really powerful. I mean, I say to our guys all the time that there's nobody better than you at what you do. And we've got the best group of people working here at the Seahawks of any organization that I can think of. And if we're all united and if we all talk about it and all debate it and then all agree on the steps that we're going to take to achieve it, we're going to achieve it.

We can't be stopped. And when I got here, there was some what I'll call silos where decisions were being made in one area of the organization without sharing or discussing the potential impacts on other areas within the organization. And then people were sort of surprised and grew resentful that somebody had made a decision that affected them. We don't do that anymore. We don't do that anymore. We don't do that anymore. So if we're going to make a decision on who's going to do the food and beverage operation at the stadium and what products we're going to sell and at what price, that affects ticket sales. If we're going to bring a sponsor into the stadium that wants to sell its

product at the stadium, that affects the concessionaire and the building operation. Everybody's got to work on it together. You can't just say, hey, I made this decision and now you've got to execute it. That's not going to create camaraderie and teamwork and a collective spirit. No, we all are part of the decision going in. We all understand how the decision was made. And then we can all explain it to ourselves

and be comfortable with it because we were a part of it. Yeah. And that starts with the principle that communication collaboration is a requirement. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's really fun to work here. It's really fun. This is now me talking and I don't want to over-influence your response to this, but to, to, to be in harmony with two really influential and charismatic and thoughtful people, John Schneider and Pete Carroll, they create an environment that's really switched on. And what is it like for you to be able to be in the position that you're in and to work and collaborate with them and to also guide a separate business structure for the Seahawks and the business side of it. What is that like for you?

Is it fun? Is it serious? Is it heavy? Is it intense? Is it, you know, is it all of that? What is it like for you? Yeah, it's a very interesting question. I mean, I think it's been really fun for the three of us to work together but also have sort of areas of independence where we're responsible.

And so, you know, John and Pete don't necessarily need my input to do what they're going to do and do it well. And I don't always need their input. But when we reach across the hall and ask each other's input, it's kind of cool because, oh, wow, John wants my opinion on a player or a contract negotiation. That's kind of fun for me. But I think we all have really important roles because my group touches the fan. My group generates the revenue. My group pays the bills. My group generates a profit that makes the owner happy. And yet we can't do any of it without the football side and what John and Pete are doing. And the job that they've done and the success that the team has had has made our job easier. And hopefully what we've done

has made their job easier. And so I think it's just, it's really come together nicely. And I think, you know, our owner, Paul Allen deserves a lot of credit. He, he, you know, found a way to hire a really good coach, a really good young general manager and stumbled across me in the process that, you know, I wasn't necessarily a traditional hire for this job because I wasn't a football guy. I'd never worked in the NFL. I also came into this job as the president of the Seattle Sounders soccer team. And I'd never done that before. You know, someone asked me once, you know, how do you think our fans will react to our hiring a hockey guy? And I said, well, I don't really view myself as a hockey guy. You know,

I worked seven years at NBC sports and 21 years at Anheuser-Busch and four years in hockey. So I'm kind of... How do you view yourself? That's a really interesting thought. You know, that's a good question. I view myself, I guess, as what I started off at, you know, hardworking, go about it one day at a time, you know, be honest, be trustworthy, tell the truth, um, be a good person to the best of your ability. Um, it's kind of like my parents' voices in my ear right now, you know, good things will come to you if you go about things the right way and just work really hard and, you know, be honest. You know, good things will come to you if you go about things the right way and just work really hard and, you know, be honest. You know, I was I was an Eagle Scout and those I learned a lot of really valuable stuff as an Eagle Scout. You know, be trustworthy, be honest, you know, just basic values.

And, you know, my dad gave me a kind – one day he was on an airplane and he wrote out like 10 or 12 sort of business philosophies that he had and I still have them. They're written down. One of which is you can't get ahead in your career unless the people around you want you to get ahead. So that means you have to get along with people and you have to try. And I always – wasn't always good at that. There was a point in my career where I was – I had probably taken on more than I was ready for when we were creating this Bush Media Group. I was young. I was kind of inexperienced.

I suddenly had this massive responsibility, and it made me a little cranky, made me a little edgy. And I sometimes took that out on people, people who I relied on and needed and were my teammates. And I got some pushback on it. And it was a real eyeopening thing to realize that my approach wasn't working for people and I had to make a change. But, you know, I just think, um, you know, it's still funny to me, you know, when people like, will come up to me in Seattle and go, Hey, you know, great job, go Hawks. So I'm like, say to my wife, Kelly, how does that person know who I am? I'm not used to that.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Because, because the business operations is more behind the scenes. That and you know, I kind of viewed as I'm just, I'm just doing a job. Oh, got it. Back to the one day at a time, one step at a time, work hard, do good and good things will happen or do it the right way is how you say it. Yeah, do things the right way. And OK, I want to I want to ask what it's like to work with Paul Allen and then one of the wealthiest people in the world and super intelligent and has definitely a master plan. And then I also want to know, what was that experience that your dad gave you a set of leadership principles?

Is that what you called them? Yeah. Or philosophy? Yeah. It was early in my career and he just said, here are some principles that I think you should focus on and concentrate on as you go out throughout your career. And I think this will help you be successful. Was dad really thoughtful in that way? Yeah.

He was a complete self-made man. His parents came over on the boat from Ireland. Um, he lost his mother when he was eight. Uh, dad was, you know, postal worker in New York, I think, um, might have been driving a city bus one of those two and you know grew up during the depression in New York City Irish immigrant I mean really his youngest son went to the best university in the world

as did he so he went to Stuyvesant High School in New York City which is a merit based high school you take the test citywide Stuyvesant High School in New York City, which is a merit-based high school. You take the test citywide. The top 100 kids get in based on the score.

They don't care if you can walk, talk, or whatever. It's based on your intellect. And they went to Stuyvesant High School. And talk about a guy who made some interesting decisions on his own on the fly. He graduated number two in his class at Stuyvesant High School, applied to Harvard at somebody's recommendation at the school. And in those days, you applied and you interviewed at the Harvard Club of New York, and then you come back later to find out the result. And he was told he had been admitted, but they couldn't take him until second semester, first year, because the class was full. And he was told he had been admitted, but they couldn't take him until second semester first year because the class was full. And he said, okay, that's great, but I can't do that.

You know, I've got a full scholarship at CCNY. I have no way to survive over the next, you know, four months waiting for Harvard to take me. So I'm going to go to CCNY. Thank you very much. What is CCNY? City College in New York. And so he, you know, the guys in the suits and the Harvard Club in New York looked perplexed and said, you know, why don't you step outside for a few minutes? Let us discuss it. And they brought him back in and said, okay, you're in for the fall. So dad made that happen. Was he negotiating or was really, he's like kind of desperate in the way that like, listen, I got to go to school. Yeah. And I'm not waiting. This is the reality.

Oh, my God. So that changed his life significantly and it changed all of ours. Yeah. There you go. Okay. Really fun. Dad is a salt of the earth guy or is he like a – like I get that – I've got some Irish roots and what my grandmother gave passed on an Irish shillelagh. And so we have a traditional Irish shillelagh, which is a weapon. And they are really rugged people, loving people as well, and love to have fun.

You know, when people pass away, it is not – it's exactly what you see in the movies. Like it is wildly fun. So dad was stoic, quiet, let my mom do the talking. Mom raised the kids. Mom was in charge. He supported her. He loved her. She was the boss. He was very funny, had a great sense of humor, but he was very serious, very

steady in his approach, you know, church every Sunday. He was just a steady, eddy guy. Great role model, great example. Is he still alive? No. Yeah. And is there something that you hope that he knew about you or that you could say to him, um, you know, through your life together? You know, we had really good communication. I was very close with my parents and I was talking to them a lot. It was easier to talk to my mother than my father. But, um, I think I did a good job of thanking him for everything along the way. Would love for him to be at MetLife Stadium with my mom in New Jersey, where I grew up, watching us win that Super Bowl. But I think he was.

Do you have a spiritual connection to how the world works? Is there an afterlife? Are you connected to a spiritual path? You know, I, I, I'm not a, let me say this, you know, I'm a Christian. Um, I, I know that when I pray and I don't pray a lot, but when I pray, my prayers are answered. And to me, that's really powerful. I guess so. Yeah.

There you go. What do you pray for? Like what are the things that your prayer life look like? Generally, I just pray for, you know, thanks. I say thanks all the time. Thank you for. Gratitude prayers. Yeah.

Everything that I've been so fortunate to have in my life. And thanks for making my kids healthy and happy. And, um, you know, I pray about my mom and my dad and my lost sister. And, and, um, when things get heavy, which is for me, not that often, that's, I've only had a few moments in my life where it's gotten really intense. Um, it's amazing where, and I think my mom taught me this, that, you know, if you say, okay, here's what, here's what I'm struggling with and, and I really need your help. It's amazing. You say that to your mom? No, to, Oh, to, to who I am praying God or Jesus or, and did you say lost sister? Yeah. Your sister passed away? Yeah. Young?

I was 16. She was 19. Oh. Yeah, I was in high school. Well, that's a game-changing experience. That was intense. I was a junior on my Deerfield Academy hockey team, and it was the day of the first game of the season. And I got a call saying my sister had been in a car wreck up at university of Vermont and I had to get up to Burlington. So we were leaving within an hour to go to Boston to play this game. And I had to go

track down the coach and say, coach, I gotta, I gotta go. There's been this event. And so I went up to Burlington and, um, went to the hospital and she passed away. We went to New Jersey and did the funeral. And then I returned to Deerfield, I'm going to say Wednesday or Thursday of that week. And I think it was Wednesday night. And so I went to hockey practice Thursday afternoon and I had been demoted to the third line. I was the second line center and suddenly I was the third line center. And I go, coach, what's up? Why am I to the third line. I was the second line center, and suddenly I was the third line center. I go, Coach, what's up? Why am I on the third line?

He goes, well, you missed our first two games. I went, I know. My sister died. I had to go home for the funeral. He goes, doesn't matter. Mike Collins took your spot. You scored a goal in each game. You're on the third line.

Get to work. Whoa. Really? Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I can't even imagine. Yeah, that was hard. All boys prep school in Western Mass. Okay. So let me go back. So you're 16, you said? Yeah. She was 1916. You're demoted. You're in turmoil. Your sister just passed away, which there's no real way to understand that at that time. Your framework probably didn't have a place for that. And how did you manage that?

Well, I guess the same way, one day at a time, step by step, go back to work, play the hockey season. I listened to a lot of James Taylor and Joni Mitchell and Cat Stevens and Carole King. And that was my therapy. I got voted captain of the hockey team after that year. Had a summer job in the West Coast traveling salesman for a company. Went back to school. How did mom deal with it? Poor mom. Yeah. went back to school um how did mom deal with it poor mom yeah well mom and dad stuck together okay they hung together yeah and uh you'll find this strange and maybe this isn't for publication

on this blog but okay um i never talked to anybody about it. Never. Not my mom, not my dad. You internalized the whole thing. Yeah. Which is a, um, so I didn't really ask how she was doing. I could tell she was hurting, but I never talked to, I couldn't talk about it. I didn't want to talk about it. You guys went into survival mode, you know, and, um, you'll take care of your stuff. Mom will take care of her stuff. And it was the process there. I don't know if that's good or healthy or not, but that's what I did. Um, I don't think there's a right and wrong way. You know, I think that grief is, um, complicated and challenging and over overwhelming with emotions and there's no right and wrong way and strategy to do it. So that's been my experience. And I also have witnessed and been part of it where there's no telling of when grief ends, if it ever really

does end. It could be weeks, months, days, years, multiple years. And I think I'd love to ask you, how did that alter you or shift or change or impact you as a young man becoming, you know, on the path that you're on? You know, I'm not sure I really know. You know, I got very angry, you know, initially. Did you use that anger in sport? Did you use that anger towards yourself? Did you use that anger to God? Where did you move that anger?

I blamed God. Yeah. You know, at the, I guess, at our house before the funeral, or maybe it was after the funeral, an aunt came up to my mom and said, you know, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. And I was like, that doesn't work for me. I'm not good with that, you know? Yeah. So that bothered me. But, you know, I got over that.

And I guess I was just – it wasn't a conscious thing to say I'm not going to let this derail me because being derailed wasn't an option. I don't know what that means, being derailed. So I just – I guess I just felt like it was my misfortune that I lost my sister. We were really close. We were three years apart and then there was a four year gap and then there's two older brothers after that. So you had older brothers that lost their younger sister. You were the youngest that lost the older sister. Were you closest to her than the brothers? Yeah. So it was a little different. Yeah, it created a real void. Did you get mad at her? No. No. That mad at her? No.

No. That's not uncommon. No. Yeah. I felt sad for her. I mean she shouldn't have gotten in that car during that snowstorm. But no. So how do you sort out death now? And I'll tell you, I don't want to be dramatic about it, but I'll tell you why I'm asking this question is because what I realized when we lost the Super Bowl or we didn't win, however we phrase that question.

Was it two years ago now? Yeah, two years ago. What I realized is that loss and grief are thinly sliced. And I think there's no redundancy in the brain. And meaning that parts of the brain do multiple things. That's why it's such a richly complicated piece of matter and that we don't understand what it is. Well, at least. And what I realized is that loss of a game, loss of anything that feels to be important is so thinly sliced with grief, it's almost the exact same parallel process. And I'm wondering, you've had maybe some more experience around grief than some other people.

So I'm wondering how you understand the death process now. Well, this is a really interesting question. And I don't know if it's the chronology of this discussion that is connecting these two things for me, but I treated that Superbowl loss exactly the same way I treated my, the loss of my sister. Yeah. It's like, I'm just thinking of this now. I said to myself, it's unfortunate. It's not going to change. I'm not going to dwell on the hurt. And then I rationalized. I said, we beat the Green Bay Packers in overtime in the most remarkable, miraculous game that I'll probably ever be a part of. So being here in the first place was amazing.

And a year before, we beat the Broncos and won a Super Bowl, the first in franchise history. So while it would have been great to win two in a row, it didn't happen that way. But that's all I'm going to say about that. And I'm going to put it behind me. And that's that. And that's how I lived really from that moment on. Kelly and I went to the party. We talked to our clients. We talked to, I spent a lot of time that night talking to Paul Allen. A lot. As did John Snyder, as did Pete.

We got up on the, got on the plane the next day, flew back to Seattle, and I just – oh, no, but I actually got up the next morning and I had breakfast, and I had breakfast with Russell and Malcolm Smith and Jermaine Kearse and a few other guys, and I made sure that we talked about anything other than the game. I said, hey, what are you guys going to do next week? You know, what are you going to do in the off season? This was your strategy really for you? Not necessarily. I was trying to bring it down a notch. Yeah. Let's talk about life. Cause that's how you did it early when you're 16. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah,

it's interesting to connect those two dots. That's a really cool insight. And then, so let's say that there's a third loss, whatever that might be in the future. Would you do it the same or would you, what have you learned from the two to do it differently? Like what would, what would those two, um, incredible painful experiences that are one seems trivial and one scene in comparison, right? Losing a game seems trivial. Um, and I say that with like this, man, I'm not supposed to say that out loud because it's so meaningful to the people that have invested so much. However, let me talk around this a little bit.

In the grand scheme of things, it's sport and it's entertainment and it's wonderful. There's lots of money on the line. There's lots of investment of time and identity. But in the grand scheme of things, we've got starving children. We have homeless epidemics like we've got starving children, we have, you know, homeless epidemics, we've got, you know, war, we've got like lots of global issues that are important to keep in perspective. So, and then losing the life of loved ones is real loss, you know, and this is like this artificially contrived sporting engagement that also has loss involved.

So I don't know. Just to honor life and to honor sport, and they're just the different contexts of the two. How have you or how will you do the next loss that you experience? What have you learned from the two? You know, probably do it the same way. You know, I think it's either a strategy. I don't think it was strategic, but it's an experience that's worked for me for my own survival. But you just never know.

I mean, I actually had to really employ some coping skills when we lost the playoff game in Atlanta in 2012. That's right. I was crushed by that one. But I realized I can't show crush. I'm the president of the team, and these young guys are coming off the field. They're crushed. I got to try to make them feel okay. And I actually, you know, I don't disagree with you because I think philosophically and morally you're saying the right thing about that Super Bowl loss.

But that loss – the impact of that loss was significant on a lot of people. Really significant. Our fans, our community, the players, their families. It was hard. But I think like any significant loss, loss of a loved one, loss of a Superbowl, you know, it's, it's important to, um, to move on. Yeah. And can we move on with compassion and be stronger and have more insight for the next opportunity that we'll have lost? Cause it's going to happen again, you know, and I don't mean loss of a Superbowl. I'm not saying that I'm saying loss, whatever it is.

Yeah. And okay. So I, early when we started down this path of the conversation, you said, I'm not sure if this is for everybody. And I want to just honor that now. I'm happy to take that out or leave this in or like, uh, honor your, that part of, I'm okay with it. Yeah. I think it's really honest and beautifully placed in a conversation about your path and understanding of mastery. And in, in that, um, can I hit you with some kind of just quick hits and like, this is more like psychology stuff. Okay. So yes, no one to 10 scale is what we're looking for on these 10 being the most, okay. Your ability to switch on, to be fully engaged and present. Score yourself one to 10, if you can. 10?

Yeah, I think so too, knowing you. Your ability to switch off. Six? Your ability to manage internal distractions, like the noise inside you. Zero. So you've got lots of internal distractions. Yeah, and I actually embrace them. Okay. Oh, tell me. Yeah. Keep going on that. Well, I mean, it's the many impulses and things that are going on that I want to manage them all. I love that. I want to engage them all.

Okay. Your ability to lock in and focus when it's dangerous, when there's high risk involved. Ten. When it's boring. Lock in when it's boring. Zero. During emotional risk. Put a number on flight. That's awesome. Okay. Um, are you motivated? So internal, external,

motivated by external rewards, one to 10 money, attention, fame, you know, recognition by others. Oh, that's a question. Yeah. One to 10. Seven. Motivated by internal rewards, the way it feels to grow, to make a difference, to be connected. Eight. Yeah. Okay. So you've got that kind of relationship between the two, uh, fear, feel, let's talk about fear of failure. And so there's a couple of ways I think about it looking more so about what it says – what impact it's going to have the organization and others.

Because I feel like if there's a failure that is going to be bad for the organization, that's my responsibility to avoid that, prevent that. And so ultimately it points back to me and that's a heat that causes me to sweat. Like, shoot, I screwed up. What's really tough is when there's a failure within the organization that you didn't even know about. That you're supposed to know on paper. That you're supposed to know. Oh boy. Yeah.

Because then you got to stand up and own it. At the same time, somebody in your organization has let you down and therefore let everybody down and that person has to go. So that's pretty clear for you. That person's got to go. Okay. Um, particularly if, if, if, if that person didn't own it and say, listen, I got to fess up on this. We got to, we got to tack this together. Okay. Yeah. You seem really decisive about that, but that's a game changer. Um, okay. One to 10 music, five spirituality for science, one breaking rules, seven taking risk, seven, um, following rules. Seven. Taking risk. Seven. Following rules. Ten. Okay. I think you can both follow and break rules simultaneously. Yeah, I think you can. Yeah, it's like which ones you break and which ones you follow. Being self-crit-critical, uh, probably eight cultivating

great habits, six sleep, uh, seven. Yeah. So it's important to you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you, do you have any mindfulness practices where you, is it prayer that you get quiet and talk? Yeah. So that's not part of that early morning thing. The early morning. And that's not conscious. Yeah. That's that.

That comes from somewhere else. Oh, interesting. Yeah. However, it's important to you. Yeah. Yeah. To pay attention during that time. Okay.

And then, um, caffeine. Two cups a day. First thing in the morning. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Okay.

But not all day long. And then across your history of being around world's best in many different forms, in business and sport, what would you say that you've learned to be one of the most important mental skills? Is it confidence? Is it calm? Is it poise? Is it letting go of mistakes? Is it being relentless and gritty? What do you see?

I think listening is huge. Listening to what others are saying because they'll give you all the cues you need in a negotiation. I think the most important skill set in a negotiation is listening. Because if you're listening when the other party is telling you what's important or what they want, what they want to charge you for, whatever, they're going to give you the answer to how to get to the end of the deal. So I think that's important. But what was the question again? No, that's it. That was the question.

Like, what are the more psychological and mental skills? Yeah, listening. And that's part of learning, it sounds like. And I really believe, and I don't mean this in an ergo way, but never take no for an answer when you know that you haven't achieved what you want to achieve. Don't be dishonest about it or immoral about it. Don't be mean to other people about it. But there are always barriers and obstacles that are put up along the way, and they're meant to be leapt over.

I really believe that. Yeah, because I think everyone – and it sounds like the organizations you've been part of, people are signing up to really believe that. Yeah. Cause I think everyone, um, it sounds like the organization you've been part of, people are signing up to do challenging things and it feels that way in this organization. Like the love of challenge is high and the love of going for it and straining and striving and letting go and trusting are all part of the mix that it, for me, it's fun. Yeah. That's what I call fun. Like that hard work to do challenging things is really fun. And then, okay, where does pressure come from? How do you think about internal? Yeah. So it's that internal conversation with yourself about, you know, is this okay? Beautiful. Last thing. How do you think about this concept of mastery? Like, are words that you, or sentences that guide your thoughts around the concept of mastery?

Well, you know, I thought of it mainly in the context of preparing to do this with you. And I, and you know, when I think of the other people you've done this conversation with before, you know, NHL Hall of Famer, NCAA Super Bowl winning coach, PhD in whatever her study is. I think mastery is developing a skill set and demonstrating an excellence over time. And I think it's all those things that have been discussed in your prior conversations. It's passion, it's commitment, a certain amount of risk-taking. And, you know, you asked me, and then we didn't go there, you know, what my philosophy on life is. And you also asked me what my view of the world is, and they're sort of interrelated because I think of the world as an extremely complicated, complex place. I worry so much

about the people who don't have enough to survive, that don't have the education, that don't have the job, don't have the family structure that, you know, I guess in a word are underprivileged in one way or another. And yet I also believe that if you put your mind to it, you can overcome a lot of things. But I don't know if people who are truly undereducated, underemployed, underserved, poor can truly overcome. There may just be too many obstacles or barriers for them. But I've been fortunate in that I've been put in a position where I've been able to overcome challenges. I've been able to pursue dreams and I've been able to accomplish. And I wish that for others. I wish they had the opportunity.

And I think those who do have the opportunity and do have the chance and don't take it, that that's their choice. And I see that, you know, I see that the, what makes me really sad are the people that just, it's almost the no way out. I mean, you drive around Seattle and you see the homeless living in tents on the side of the road. It breaks my heart. God, I love this part of the conversation. I mean, you say probably the best for last is the perspective of, of, and the compassion for the conditions that others are not, were not asked to be in. And that's the conditions in the cards that they were dealt. And for me, I don't know how I'm making any impact in that space because I want to, and if, and there's a helplessness that comes with it.

But I think that this practice of gratitude and compassion is really important. And it sounds like you've got the compassion piece when you see people that didn't or haven't been afforded the access that you've had. You know, I'd love to. Can I challenge you on something? You know, is this your dad gave you this incredible gift, right? He showed you how to work hard. Yeah. And he showed any encouraged you to get to use the education system and take it as far as you can.

And then one step ahead of another, you know, literally was the path and and being able to see what people both parties want in any kind of relationship, business and otherwise. And and he gave you this incredible gift of writing down 10 philosophies to help guide that. And so here's the challenge maybe, and take it or not, or tell me my buzz off on this. I wonder if you could share that, those 10 in some sort of public way, maybe we could put on the website or other places or whatever publication you choose and, or maybe you upgrade and change and filter some for, for people. I don't know your, your 10, right? Like here's dad's 10 and here's my 10. And then, you know, yeah. Right. Maybe there's a gift in there to, um, uh, to kind of sort some of this compassion piece and, uh, insights that you've learned.

No, I'd be happy to do that. And, you know, it's, it's funny cause I don't know if it's funny, but it's interesting. I, I, I talked to a lot of young people who want career advice. And I find that kind of interesting.'s becoming a greater number of people and it's a growing industry, if you will. But starting off in their careers, people need advice. They're trying to figure out how to get there, how to get doors opened, how to break through. And I think a lot of times young people now are sending in applications and resume through websites, monster.com or whatever it is, and it's totally anonymous, and that's not going to work. It's all about the personal connection that you've got to make somehow. So, yeah, I'd be happy to help with that.

Yeah, I think it's an incredible gift to give other people based on what you've come to understand. Maybe that's something that as we're riffing right now, that's something that we could, you could lead off or spearhead. And that could be something that happens for each podcast, like the 10, you know, in honor of your dad in this conversation, like the 10 philosophical driving points that have been relevant, important and to give to others. Yeah. Okay. Peter, thank you. Thank you. Enjoyed others. Yeah. Okay. Peter, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Give me the opportunity to be included in this conversation with all the other people you've talked to. I'm

honored. And it's been a blast to work alongside you and for you and to be able to continue to do this in the future. So we appreciate all your help. You've had a really positive impact on the organization. So thank you. All right. All right. So let's, um, let's go enjoy the rest of the day. So thank you. All right. All right. So let's go enjoy the rest of the day. Cool. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community.

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