Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Seizing the Moment | Director and Photographer, Corey Rich

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Corey Rich, a director and photographer.Corey has built a life and career around his passions for travel, adventure, and telling stories with his camera.With a background in rock climbing and photojournalism, Corey’s work spans a range of genres, from iconic still imagery for leading editorial publications, to television spots and films, to directing high-production-value commercial projects for Fortune 100 companies.Corey recently released “Stories Behind the Images,” a photo essay book about his reflections on becoming a master photographer, working with high profile subjects including Tommy Caldwell, Bear Grylls, Kelly Slater, Ashima Shiraishi, and Alex Honnold.He was the official photographer for Tommy Caldwell’s The Dawn Wall film and his image of Tommy on the cover of his Stories book was a Time Magazine cover image.This conversation though, isn’t just about what makes a great photo – it’s about Corey’s process for making the most of opportunities – and – his presence of mind, his ability to string together moments.And while Corey loves what he does, it doesn’t come without a cost. There are serious risks associated with his craft.In Corey’s words: The irony of the mountains, of climbing and adventure sports, is that it can give us so much. The greatest joys in my life have been in the mountains, have been in these rad, wild adventures but those same mountains can take it all away instantly.There is much to learn from people who push right up against that edge._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. You know, we've been on the side of El Capitan for six days at this point. It's the perfect light at the perfect time of the day with the perfect moment of Tommy leaving the portal edge. Kevin, you know, neither of them is paying attention to what I'm doing. And the camera was close enough. And through muscle memory, I lifted it made a very, I mean, this is happens very fast. It's kind of, I don't know enough about football to liken it

to the, you know, the quarterback, like he sees the pocket, he throws, you know, the guy, the receiver is ready to grab it, but it's a little like that. I mean, it's very fast. It's probably less than 60 seconds from start to finish. See the opportunity, pick up the camera, compose, adjust exposure, depress the shutter a few times, moment's gone. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast is to learn from the extraordinaries, to learn from people who have dedicated their life towards mastery, either of self and craft or both. And what we want to do is understand not only what they've come to understand, but how they've

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have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay, this week's conversation is with Corey Rich, a director and a photographer. And Corey's built his life and his career around his passion for travel, adventure, and telling stories with his camera.

With a background in rock climbing and photojournalism, his work spans a range of genres from iconic still imagery for TV and film and publications. And he also directs and produces high value commercial projects for Fortune 100 companies. And Corey recently released his book, Stories Behind the Images. It's awesome. It's a photo essay book about his reflections on becoming a master photographer, working with high profile subjects like Tommy Caldwell, Bear Grylls, Kelly Slater, Alex Honnold. And if you're not familiar with those names, do a quick search. You'll say, wow. And more importantly, go get his book names, do a quick search. You'll say, wow. And more importantly, go get his book because all of the insights that he's got about living on the

edge and filming those men and women who are on the edge are embedded in this book. And he was the official photographer for Tommy Caldwell's The Dawn Wall film. And his image of Tommy on the cover of his book was Nat Geo's cover image as well. It's beautiful. I mean, it's stunning when you really look at what he's captured and you think about his experience in it as well. And this conversation is not about what makes a great photo. It's about Corey's process for making the most of his opportunities in life. And it distills down to his presence of mind and his ability to string together moments. You know, we're speaking the same language now.

So I flat out love this conversation. And while Corey loves what he does, it does not come without a cost. There are serious risks associated with his craft. And in Corey's words, the irony of the mountains, of climbing and adventure sports, is that they can give us so much. The greatest joys of my life have been in the mountains, have been on these rad, wild adventures, but those same mountains

can take it all away instantly. There's so much to learn from people who push right up against the edge. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Corey Rich. Corey, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm loving this beach weather in Southern California. I hear people brag about Southern California, but I'm kind of getting it today, staring out at the Pacific Ocean. You've spent your whole life in nature. So it's cool that you appreciate this, you know, the space we're in right now. But you've organized your whole life to be in nature and to be in consequential environments.

And, you know, like, tell me a little bit about that part of your life. You know, I don't know who I'm borrowing this from because I'm an avid listener. I consume audio books like they're going out of style. And somewhere along the line, someone used the term lifestyle design. Might have been Tim Ferriss. I think it was the four hour work week. And Tim has this thing about lifestyle design, right?

We consciously decide what our life is going to look like. And definitely one of the design elements for me, lifestyle design elements is I, I realized early on, I'm the most inspired when I'm living or I'm not necessarily living, but when I'm in beautiful places and those mean, that means natural places. And so my wife and I live in Lake Tahoe, California, and we travel a lot. I travel a ton. I've owned a house there because I want to be home with my daughter and my wife. But it's by design. I find that I'm the most productive person when I'm inspired by what's outside the back door. And that's both visually what I see when I'm standing on a mountaintop and staring at snow-capped peaks or looking at the lake. It allows me to sort of tap into being the best version of myself.

I mean, I'm the most creative. And I think there's sort of like a two-stage piece to that. One, I'm the best version of myself. I'm the most creative, the most productive when I'm in a beautiful place. And I'm also, there's this other ingredient, which is I have to be physically engaged like if I'm a participant in what I'm filming or shooting and and I guess how I would qualify that is like I'm along for the ride I'm also sweating my heart's beating you know that I always use the qualifier of if sweat's dripping into my eyes that's like when I reach this more kind

of creative space. Like I'm, I'm making the best pictures. I'm making the best decisions. I'm pressing that record button button at the right moment. I'm sort of more tuned in. I'm more hyper focused on, on what I'm trying to capture the story I'm trying to tell. If I'm a participant, like if my heart rate, if I'm at like 40 beats per minute and I'm kind of lethargic and sedentary, I'm not, I can't shoot at the same level. I have to be an engaged participant. And that means my brain is spinning and also my heart is pumping. And when that happens, I can look back now at my career, the best pictures that I've

made, the best photographs, you know, some of the most inspired work that I've done. Those are like the two ingredients. We're in an epic spot and I'm a, I'm totally engaged. I'm a, I'm physically a participant in the adventure. That's, you're supporting really good science, right? From a neurobiological perspective for let's call it flow state right now as a, as a marker. But when we're in a challenging condition and we're working and we're seeing it as a challenge rather than a threat

and we're maintaining this optimistic view about what could take place and I just got to stay in it and it's freaking hard and I love it and this is what I'm about and I'm skilled from a psychological, technical, physical standpoint and it's pushing on all those levers that all of that increases the frequency of getting in flow state. Unless one thing, if we go, Oh, I don't have what it takes. This is I'm way over my head. And we ride that train, our cap, our capabilities and capacities become restricted. And so it's a really cool thought that you need to have sweat in your eyes. And you know, one of the things I'm struck by when you say that is that so many people take pictures on iPhones on whatever, you know, phone

that they have or personal computing device. And I guess they're good. Yeah, I look at it. I'm like, oh, that's a good shot. But as a pro, you look at that and I'm sure go, oh gosh. I don't know. You know, I, I talk about that and think about that a lot. I think the quality bar of imagery of image making has gone way up. It's like through the roof. The, the quality of images in the world around us today, it's way better than they were 20 years ago. And I think that's because of digital technology. You know, my career, I consider myself, I'm still a young guy, I'm 43 years old, going on 19 is what I sometimes feel like in my head. But I started shooting film. I mean, I was shooting, I'd roll, I had a hundred foot spool of black and white film and I'd roll it in the dark room and put it in my camera and then process it. And then I evolved from shooting black and white film to shooting transparency film to shooting early digital cameras. Um, and, and of course now I shoot with my iPhone all the time. It's in my pocket. And, but what has happened is because everyone is using, first we saw this jump when digital cameras became prolific. Everybody, you know, pros were using digital cameras and we saw this huge jump

in terms of quality of images. If you look at Sports Illustrated as a magazine during the film days, and then you fast forward three years from the switch to film to digital, the quality bar went way up and it's super simple. It was just, you got immediate feedback. Okay. So from a professional, what makes, and I want to get to the consequential environments that you work in and the insights you have there with the men and women you work with, but what makes a good photo? You know, I think a great photograph has an image that moves you, right? Does it move you too? Absolutely. It moves humans. Yeah, i feel it immediately when i know when i press that shutter button and it's

something really special it's it makes the hair on your neck stand up in the moment and and and but you can't i don't have time to really sort of acknowledge it in the moment because i'm still going like i've got it i'm i'm like hammering i'm still going. Like I've got to, I'm like hammering, I'm still going because I'm trying to push, push, push, trying to make it even better. But in those moments, yeah, deep in my heart and in my brain, I know immediately it's like this is special. Something special is happening right here. It's that convergence of, and this is very simplistic,

but it's the light, something about the, where the light's coming from. It's the moment. What specific, what is happening in that frame? What is that person? What is that athlete doing? Why is this special? Is there historical significance? And then that composition, where are they in this rectangle? And it's, and that sounds so simple, but it's so rare that all of those things come together at kind of the highest level. And it's not by accident, right? It's, it's sort of you, I try to put myself repeatedly in the situations where that can happen, where I'm trying to enable that opportunity. I'm trying to enable that situation. And it's, it's kind of like, you know, I listened to occasionally, like I said,

I love listening to audio books. I listened to books sometimes about business and, you know, they talk about sales and, you know, they, in the sales world, they talk about, you've got to make, you know, 20 phone calls to make one really land. And I think it's the same in, in photography and the same in sports. I've just got to put myself in situations 20, 40, a hundred times and one in a hundred times that convergence of all of those situations come together. So that, okay, that's not luck, right? That's you purposely putting yourself in a situation to have the opportunity to capture it. And as I just said what I just said, and you were saying what you were saying,

I hear Coach Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks in my head right now, he says it all the time, that we want to make sure that we capture the opportunities that we put ourselves in. And how do we do that? Well, we've got to build our physical capacities. We've got to build our technical skills and our mental skills so that we basically like don't miss. Right. And that's a negative way to say it. But the truth is like, for me, some of the most painful experiences in my life is when it's all right there. It's coming together. You know, it's right there. And just kind of, you know, like, do you know, do you know that? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, the misses are, I mean, i like that that sentiment that idea that it's you want to be prepared like set yourself up and be prepared

because the opportunities like they're fleeting yeah there's very few there's very few opportunities and i mean i i think about it as a you know now i 30 years, almost 30 years into a career. I mean, I started taking pictures when I was 13 years old. I'm now 43 years old. I could probably count those super special opportunities on two hands. I mean, and that's, that's in 30 years of. Give me one, give me, give me one or two of those. Like I want to go look at that work. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think, I think the cover of, of my book stories behind the images, it's a, it's a photograph of my good friend, Tommy Caldwell, rock climber on El Capitan and he's leaving our base camp. So he's a legend, legend. And yeah, one of the, one of my very best friends and one of the greatest human beings that I know, just a genuinely wonderful person and one of the most

elite climbers of all time, well-rounded climbers. So Kevin, Kevin Jorgensen, his climbing partner is sitting in the portal ledge, um, kind of getting ready for an evening of the hardest climbing ever. And Tommy is leaving the portal ledge first and he's ascending the rope on Jumars. And I'm sitting in another portal ledge and I'm kind of fumbling around getting gear ready. And I look up and we're in this, you know, epic spot, but all of the sudden that the kind of the clouds break and the shaft of light, you know, because in a rainstorm, we thought was kind of moving in and the clouds break and the shaft of light. And I sort of, you know, this is a fleeting moment. There's 60 seconds

to make this happen. And Tommy's ascending the rope and I fumble and I grabbed the camera because it's, and it becomes muscle memory. It's intuitive at this point. Um, the camera comes up to my eye, shoot. And I haven't gone back to look at the take, but I'm guessing there's 12 frames, six frames, one of which is the frame. And then, and that moment's gone. You know, Kevin's in the right moment. Tommy's ascending the rope. He swings out a couple of frames. He's, now he's out of the frame. That's it. That's a fleeting moment. It's that perfect coincidence of, you know, we've been on the side of El Capitan for six days at this point. It's the perfect light at the perfect time of the day with the perfect moment

of Tommy leaving the portal edge. Kevin, you know, neither of them is paying attention to what I'm doing. And the camera was close enough. And through muscle memory, I lifted it made a very, I mean, this is happens very fast. It's kind of, I don't know enough about football to liken it to the, you know, the quarterback, like he sees the pocket, he throws, you know, the guy, the receiver is ready to grab it, but it's a little like that. I mean, it's, it's very fast. I make, it's probably less than 60 seconds from start to finish. See the opportunity, pick up the camera, a couple, you know, make, compose, adjust exposure, depress the shutter a few times, moments gone. How do you organize your life to be able to be skilled technically, physically,

mentally? What do you do from an organic kind of structural standpoint? And then as well as like very technical skill development? I mean, definitely one of the most important things for me is moving every day, just the physical exertion. I, um, my wife reminds me all the time that if I don't get out and kind of move, and that's about an hour to two hours, two hours, it's like the sweet spot. I'm just, I'm just a lesser person. I'm not enjoyable. I've become, I'm less productive and I'm sort of more uptight and, um, you know, and I, and I think it's subtle, but I think, you know, the people that love you can really see the difference.

And, and I'm just not as productive. And so that's really, that's like ingredient number one. It's so key to get out and move. And for me, that can take many different shapes. It could be, I go out and walk for two hours while I'm talking on the phone or thinking or listening to a podcast or an audio book, or I'm riding my bike. And I'm kind of infamous for, you know, friends bust me all the time for I'm that guy that's riding his bike up a hill on a conference call. But it's a better call if I'm riding my bike. Like I have more to say. I'm more interesting. Now, of course, I slow way down because, you know, I don't want them like breathing are you on a bike again like yeah yeah I mean it's um I I'm nodding my head on the other side like I love that you've been able to design your life around that and when you design your life

is it is it something is there something very clear that you're looking for or that you're searching for? Yeah, boy, that's a great question. I think I'm searching for fulfillment. I'm searching for genuine, fulfilling situations. And in some ways, even though I've made a career out of making pictures and films, that's almost secondary to the experiences. I'm seeking genuine, fulfilling experiences with people that I love and care about in the most epic places on the planet. And by default, when I'm, when I have those experiences, if I do my job, well, I'm going to bring back amazing pictures. I'm sort of addicted to, I love taking

pictures. I love, I love witnessing incredible feats unfold in front of me. You know, I, I, I oftentimes pinch myself when I'm hanging. I'm going to use climbing as an example because my roots are in rock climbing. When I'm that fly on the wall i'm hanging on the side of a wall and it's sort of i'm about to watch an athlete do something that no other human being has ever done before and and it's quiet and and the relationship relationship is such that the athlete knows i'm there but i'm not affecting what they're doing in any way. If anything, I'm support. I'm adding to the situation because we're that close and I'm depressing that shutter. And I'm focused on what's happening in that rectangle. I'm worried about the moment, the light, the composition. I'm hyper-focused on doing that and they're hyper focused on that sequence of moves and, and, and what they need to do next. It's that experience I think is what I really, what I crave. And part of my,

part of my ability to be there, the requirement is that I also bring back incredible photographs that, that in turn allow other people to feel like they were hanging there. I mean, I'm very conscious of everyone can't be there. Everyone doesn't want to be there, but hopefully I can give folks, I can allow people to feel like they were hanging in that environment. My mom, I always use my mom. My mom's not a rock climber, never was a rock climber. I say she's like the sweetest woman on the planet. But the real litmus test, have I done my job well?

Have I made a compelling photograph? Is if I come home and I share with my mom and dad the photograph and if my mom says, wow, wow, that's if she's wowed by it or moved by the picture, because long ago she stopped telling me everything was good. But if there's a genuine reaction, then I've done a good job. And I oftentimes think about this idea that there's like a collective subjective, right? Photography, anything artistic is subjective. And if you make a picture and one person tells you that's good, eh, questionable.

If everyone universally or kind of the collective, if the majority is moved by that image, by that film, by that clip, that's the collective. If collectively the subjective opinion is this is good, then it's good. And that's what I'm striving for, right? I want to be in that situation and make an image or create content that almost universally when people see it, they're instantly there, they have a reaction, which is like, wow, or they have a question. It's, um, you know, it elicits a response from folks and it's hard to get a response from folks. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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Mastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Gray glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Gray is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists. They've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around

between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. This isn't totally a fair question, but I'm interested in how interested are you in the experience,

the reward of experiencing the capturing of the moment compared to the collective subject approval? Yeah. What is your relationship? I think I probably get more. I think what, what has allowed me to do this for a long time, 20 plus years professionally, is the experience.

It's just being there. That experience of being in that moment with the light and the situation unfolding in front of me and looking through that camera and pressing that shutter, I think that's what I really crave. That's what lights me up. Now I'd be lying if I didn't say it feels good when people like it. I mean, it feels really good because that means I can pay the bills and do it again. But I think I, it's the experience part.

I'm an experienced guy, I guess is what I'm realizing. I mean, this is a good question. I think I'm, I'm more passionate about being in those situations than getting a pat on the back. Yeah, I love the thoughtfulness in your response, because it's not like, oh, well, you know, you're supposed to say it's about the passion and the value of being in it and everything else is secondary. The truth is we need both in the business artist world for this thing to play forward and it doesn't sound like you're encumbered though this is the shot people will like doesn't sound like that at all it's like you're in the artist mode when you're trying to figure out the conditions the lighting the timing whatever whatever to capture the opportunity and then your hair stands up when

you kind of know you've got it in that frame in some of those frames that you took. But the other side is like, it's like this other level of confirmation, maybe when hundreds or 1000s, or whatever number of people are like, man, that's that changed me. I mean, now I'm more of a realist. I mean, this is like the beauty of evolving as a person. You know, when I was 20 years old, taking pictures, I was completely oblivious to this aspect of you need to be able to make some money. If you want to do this again, I was just, you know, wholeheartedly focused on just get out there and make pictures, push, push, push, have incredible experiences, just follow your heart, which I think is the right thing to do in your twenties. It's, I mean, I,

I try to never forget that in my forties, it's love the experience, be immersed in the experience. And I had this like philosophy early on that if I just focused on making awesome pictures, which in turn resulted from being in these incredible experiences and really being present and kind of making that opportunity count, everything else would fall into place. The kind of the business side of it would fall into place. And now I can, I say that in, in a more kind of conscious, clear, articulate way. I sort of understood that in my twenties. Now in my forties, I totally get it. I, I'm, I remind myself all the time when I'm in the field, kind of forget about the, like the business side and the money and like where it's going.

And is the client going to be happy? Because what I've learned over a career is if I'm happy, they're going to be happy. Like if I'm pushing myself, if I'm sort of pushing it to the edge and kind of pushing myself, that's what's made this career work the end, you know, from, from the get go. It's, it's as soon as I start trying to just deliver for a client, frankly, like the creativity drops off. It's, it's ideally I'm pushing myself creatively and, and then everything else falls into place. And that's sort of been my philosophy. I mean, I, I always say I'm like an unintentional businessman. I never, definitely never had a business plan. I never said, I'm going to, here's my, this is what I'm going to do first. And then this, and then

this, and it was, no, it's real straightforward real straightforward just make great pictures a lot of them repeatedly okay so you earlier you talked i asked the question about like how do you prepare and you i interrupted or took us down a different path about how you prepare mentally as well like can you talk about technically and you talked a little bit about physically about setting all of it up but but like you get out, you walk, okay, good. You do some other fitness I'm imagining, right. On a regular basis, you know, you're climbing on a regular basis. Psychologically, what are you doing to prepare to be present, to be in it? I think I just, I try to give people space. I mean, I guess I'm, this goes back to not just the way that I work with the athletes or the subjects. I mean, I guess I'm, this goes back to not just the way that I

work with the athletes or the subjects that I'm filming or photographing, but also with my friends and life in general. I'm okay. Just hanging, like being quiet, like actually just being present. Um, you know, I, I, I'm, I always try to not, I try to just create this, like really, I mean, it sounds cliche, but create like a safe space, a comfortable space. And because that means I'm sort of downshifting into a world where I'm like ready to jump when it's time to jump. But I'm creating this environment where the athlete is comfortable and I'm like tuned. I'm warmed up by the time I'm there, by the time I'm hanging on the wall. It's sort of, I'm like tuned, I'm warmed up by the time I'm there, by the time I'm hanging on the wall, it's sort of, I'm warmed up, my heart beats up,

but I'm also in this sort of almost meditative state where it's, I'm, I'm ready to, when the moment strikes, I'm, and this sounds, this sounds like I'm going like in a chase, you know, trying to hunt an animal down, but it's, I'm just trying to almost like a Zen state. I'm there and I'm, I'm calm, but I'm very conscious of what I'm trying to accomplish. And when that opportunity emerges, I'm ready to respond. And it's, it's hard if you're not warmed up to do that. How do you warm up? Cause I get a sense that you're in it right now. Yeah. In this conversation, what did you do to prepare yourself or to condition yourself to be in this conversation?

Yeah, that's a really good question. How do I do that? That's a really... I do go through this ritual, and I've never thought about this, but there's a bit of like a switch that I can flip which is I can turn off everything else in life because I'm there's a lot of noise there's a lot of stuff that I'm thinking and the older you get there's more noise there's more stuff that I'm supposed to be thinking about and this is a great example of that situation I did when I walked

through the door I flipped that switch and I said, you know what, everything else that I need to deal with when I get back in the Uber to go to the airport, that can wait until I get back in the Uber. But right now I want to be present. And I think that being present applies to the process of making pictures to in the, in getting into that zone, let's call it the flow state. So there is a bit of a switch. And I think, and I guess my point around the physical is it's tied to the mental. If I'm not physically warmed up, if I'm not sort of engaged in the activity, then I can't quite flip the switch. So there's that sort of that right amount of, you know, I need to be physically engaged and mentally engaged in order to flip the switch. And, you know, today is a great example. I'm not, I didn to be physically engaged and mentally engaged in order to flip the switch.

And, you know, today is a great example. I'm not, I didn't go for a run. I sat on an airplane before I got here. But in a weird way, I had to get up really early to catch a flight. And I didn't sleep last night. And that almost is equal to like a little bit of suffering, I guess. Like a little bit of hardship, a little bit of discomfort is almost comparable to like physically, it helps me flip the switch. Like it was, you know, even in this urban environment, like I'm, it was just uncomfortable enough. Like I didn't sleep enough. I had to get up really early. I, you know, I tried to sleep like in 20 minute

blocks at different times during travel. And that helped me get into the space where I could flip the switch and forget about everything else. And that switch for you is a statement that you're making, like be in it, like, okay, let go. Like mechanically, what was the thing that you flipped? And I want to know mechanically what you said, but do you use thresholds like walking in doorways

or walking into places? And I know you live so much in the outdoors. I'm wondering how that works for you. No, I think it's more conscious than that. I was sitting at that cafe where we bumped into each other down the street. And I was sitting outside actually dealing with a bunch of that noise. I was on phone calls and dealing with emails. And then I finally said to one of my colleagues, I said, I got to go,

I sort of need to like, get in the headspace. And it was, I hung up the phone, and I sort of looked out at the ocean, which you can barely see from that cafe. And I just thought, okay, it's time to switch gears. And then coincidentally, I walked through the cafe door, and you were sitting there. That's funny. And I, I was literally in that transition mode to, to switching, you know, flipping the switch. So I don't, I don't think it's a threshold. I think it's like a conscious decision, which is okay. It's like, if I were a football player, it'd be okay. It's game time. It's like, okay, we're going, it's like, I don't know how professional athletes do it in mainstream sports, but I'm guessing it's a little bit of like I entered the locker room. Maybe that if I were a football player, that's probably how it happened. Yeah. I think that all of us have triggers and we can create triggers in our life. And some of them are artificial and some of them are naturalistic and being mindful and practicing that flipping of the switch, if you will, um, is something that is a skill, right? And so cool. I didn't know that you did that. It was eloquent. Yeah. I mean, I, and I, I've never thought about that. I feel

like you asking that question, it's the first time I'm sure I'll walk out of your office and spend more time thinking about this, but yeah, there must be a switch. I've just never given that. Cool. And then, and then concretely, whately, what do you say or what did you say today? I think I know that to have a meaningful conversation, be it with my wife, with my friends, with you, you have to be present. Like you've got to be there. And if I'm in the back of my head thinking about 10 other things, I can't have a meaningful conversation or it's going to be a lesser conversation than if I'm wholly there. And so I think it was just that consciousness of we both committed time to have this conversation. So if I'm not, it goes back to passion, right?

I'm a passionate person and it takes on two forms. It's I'm passionate about the work that i do but i'm also passionate about whatever it is i'm doing i try to be passionate and present and whatever i'm doing and and so that was i think that was it if i'm gonna if i'm gonna take your time and i'm gonna spend my time to have this conversation let's make it count which means i need to be present so i just consciously made that decision i don't't want to, I want to make this count. And so I flipped the switch. Yeah, Corey, that's like the ultimate gift to others, right?

Is to be present with them and saying, okay, I got a lot going on. You got a lot going on, but we're going to carve out some time. And then I want to, I want to pull on that thread about passion and your passion about what you do and where you are. And I get asked that or even questioned about passion all the time. And I've heard this over and over again so many times that people say, you know, I've lost passion and like, and they look at people like you and they're like, well, he knew at a young age that he wanted to be a photographer and kind of be in the environment that he's in. And so I don't feel so as fortunate or so lucky and I just need to do find my passion. And have you heard that phrase,

find my passion? Of course. Yeah, of course. And it, it, it, it makes me crazy a little bit because my understanding is that it's not that you need, somebody needs to find their passion. Like if I play the guitar, now I'm going to be passionate or I'm going to organize my life because I get to play the guitar more often. It's that we need to organize our inner life so that we bring passion everywhere we go. And passion is, you know, a placeholder for that inner fire, you know? And so like, can you bounce off that a little bit? Yeah.

I mean, you know, I look at passion in two different ways. One, and I do feel fortunate. I feel really lucky that somehow as a kid, I figured out that I freaking love taking pictures, that I love storytelling through a visual medium. And I am forever grateful for that. And I think that flame will burn forever in my life. And there's no denying that, that I am, that was luck. I think I just coincidentally, much like athletes, you know, there are a lot of super talented people out there athletically, but not all of them find the right activity that they don't find that,

that sport where they can excel. And I think if I were to liken it to athletics, I found that like I have this skill set, these natural, I had these attributes and I, and I aligned with storytelling, visual storytelling, of passion, it's, it's leading a passionate lifestyle regardless of what I'm doing. And I, I, I appreciate this even more now with a little girl, with a six year old girl in that her world is so simple. It's just, it's beautiful in its simplicity. And what she wants from me as a father is to be present and engaged when I'm spending time with her. And that's whether we're in the forest looking at bugs. She wants me wholeheartedly there and passionate about looking at bugs and engaged in my knees are as dirty as hers as we crawl through the forest and look for bugs and talk about plants, or whether that's building with blocks in our living room. And I think that's a, that's living passionately. So there's the, can you find your passion? What is it that you love to do? You know, can you find that obsession in life, but then that obsession, can you apply passion to it? And I, you know, I, I strive and it's not easy to do all the time,

but I, whatever I'm doing, I want to be passionate about that. And I think that goes back to this conversation. If I'm going to have a conversation, I want to be passionate about that conversation. If I'm going to play with my daughter, I want to be passionate about that. If we're, whatever it is that I'm, I want to be present because I think when you're really present, you get the most out. You get more return on that kind of emotional investment. How organized are you in your life? Because I ask that question because I'm nodding my head to all of this. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I lose track. Yeah. I so regard the time commitments with other people and it drives me crazy. It drives me crazy when I'm four minutes late, 20 minutes late for something. And it's like the ultimate disrespect. But I'm so lost. Like I've got a watch. I wear a watch. It doesn't.

There's no chance it's set to the right time. Right. Like I never really look at it as a tool it's a gift someone gave me and I honor that gift because it was a really cool moment I'll tell you about that later but it's just the watch I'm wearing I should say

but like I don't know so I run into the danger for me the occupational hazard and danger of living presently is that I lose track of time it sounds counterintuitive but do you have any of that concerns or is that just me being? You know, that's a funny one. I, you know, I always, my wife and I are, um, gosh, and I, I, the critique of, I can be very laid back and I am when I'm present and with people when I'm, I'm sort of in those situations where I want to be totally engaged, but I'm present and with people, when I'm sort of in those situations where I want to be totally

engaged. But I'm also very deliberate about what I do in life. And I'm very conscious of sort of my commitments and time. And, and I think that goes back to the craft of photography and storytelling. If you don't have your ducks in a row, you're going to blow it. Like if it, you know, it's sort of, if I don't have the right tools in my bag and I don't know how they work and the card's not in there and it's not formatted and I'm sort of, I understand roughly what the exposure is. It doesn't matter how great the situation is, you're going to fuck it up. Like you're, the likelihood of succeeding is low. And so I think that trend, I don't know what came first. If I, I was always organized with my life and that, you know, um, kind of trickled into the world of photography or it's the opposite. I found photography and I realized, wow, the way that I'm structured in'm, I'm, I'm loose, but I'm willing to kind of adapt

and I'm, I'm easy. I can, I can operate on the fly. I can sort of roll with the flow of things, but I just, I always want, I always kind of know what that true North is. I can always, no matter what situation I'm in, no matter what I'm doing, I can always look back to like, where does this fit into what I'm trying to accomplish? Am I, am I within a space? Am I getting something out of this situation that's fulfilling for me and the other people?

And so, yeah, I don't lose track of time necessarily, but I'm willing to kind of roll with the punches all the time. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature.

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matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay, so let's go true north that concept for a minute and be a little more, if we are a little more esoteric, what is, if we're going to be more concrete, esoteric, what is your true north? I want to fill my days with meaningful interactions. I want to move other people. I want to sort of help bring joy to their lives. And I say this through either my interaction with them or the photographs that I share with them or the stories that I tell.

I want to have loving, deep relationships with friends and family. And I want to be good at what I do. I want to be challenged every day. I want to feel like I pushed a little bit further. I, I worked harder than I, than I, I like working hard. I guess I like to be a little uncomfortable every day. It's like, that makes sitting, you know, a little bit of discomfort makes me more comfortable when I'm sitting in the couch, you know, when I'm just, I enjoy it more. So I don't know if that's a, I mean, it's off the top of my head. Wait, whoa, whoa.

You haven't thought about those? Because you hit four pillars that were really crisp. Not more. No, I haven't given it a ton of, I mean, I think about those things on a regular basis. You know, in those moments in life where it's, is this a good idea? Is what I'm doing, does this feel right? I think those are good tests that I sort of applied these tests occasionally. But all of that stems from how does that make me feel? Like if I do those things, if those pillars, if I'm doing those things, I feel

really good. Like it's a lot easier to go to sleep at night. Yeah. Who taught you that? I think a lot of people, you know, I look at my, certainly my mom and dad are just loving down to earth people, but I've also had a lot of mentors in life. I mean, people that have, that have given me a lot and, and, and that's time and guidance and showing me what passion looks like. Um, you know, and I, I, I've had a lot of teachers really that are, I mean, these are, you know, teachers in the traditional sense, public school teachers that just, they actually had that job because they fucking cared about kids. And, and along the way, I've had a half dozen school teachers that, I don't know if they gave me more than any other kid, or I was just more receptive to it,

but I, I just have the deepest respect for teachers. And, you know, I can, there's a couple of teachers in my life that, you know, at 13 years old, two school teachers took me rock climbing for the first time, totally changed my life. Another school teacher kind of showed me photography, totally changed my life, you know, at 13 years old. And along the way, there were other teachers and mentors that, you know, sort of maybe identified a kid that just, you know, was working hard and was willing to give it his all and just kind of gave me a little more, at least I was willing to ask them more questions. But I definitely, I just have deep, deep respect for teachers. You have like this really clear, curious, nonjudgmental,

open way about you. You're valuing being present. You're valuing getting into those conditions where it challenges you to be your best. And in return, you do your best work. And in return, give the gift to the athlete and others that might be inspired by it. Like, so it really is not lost on me how much you spend on your values first, your characters, character traits, skills, and then putting yourself in uncomfortable situations to be able to capture opportunities. Does that feel right to you? That does. I mean, this is probably the most I've ever talked about, what's going on in my head or that system of evaluating what's meaningful to me and how I want to live my life. But no, that, that, I, I think that is

a very good articulation of, um, of, of the way I try to live. So you spend most of your time with the, almost like in a reverse order to the typical nine to five. So the typical nine to five is you work with people and it's great when you care about the people you work with, and you're waiting kind of to go home, right, to the intimate relationships that you have. You've changed that model, right? And that model for you is that you're going on road trips for, I don't know, weeks at a time, months at a time, where you're in deep relationships with people that are risking life and limb and in concert operating consequential environments so your level of intimacy with people is more practiced i would imagine than the four hours that most people get at the end of the day when

they're a little tired and they come home to their spouse can you you teach about intimacy? Can you teach about the depth of relationships and what goes into that? One thing that I know about myself is I really struggle. I'm terrible in mundane environments. A great example is I'm a terrible tourist, for example. Terrible like if my wife and i and our daughter and some another family we went to disneyland at one point and i i'm awful in those situations even though i talk about trying to be passionate about those situations when when I'm in just a mundane, that's the wrong way to say it, playing with blocks with my daughter one-on-one, that's mundane, but I can be passionate about that or crawling around in the forest. I can be totally engaged. I have a really hard time doing

that in sort of mainstream environment where being at Disneyland or in a shopping mall, we're in a huge line where I'm just surrounded by people. And I'm, I'm just a, there's nothing genuine about the experience. I want genuine, real, authentic experiences all the time. I mean, that's what I want. I want, and I think that goes bound, comes back to this, like, what is what real and we're problem solving together and we're sharing real experiences that we're going to tell stories about for years. You know, last week we, we flew back from Switzerland. It was a team of five of us and we got stuck at LAX. Our flight just kept on getting delayed, delayed. And finally at 1 30 in the morning, they said, we're canceling the flight. And so, you know, here I am with, you know, from our team, it's our producer, our DP, assistant camera.

There's five of us. And we make a game time decision at 1.30 in the morning. F it. We're driving home to Tahoe. Because it was 24 hours. Any airline, it was 24 hours to get a flight home. And at one level, like you could look at this as this is just an awful shitty situation and you're grumpy and you're pissed that the airline screwed it up. And at another level, like that's

what I live for. Like this genuine experience at two 30 in the morning, we finally loaded, you know, 15 cases of gear into a rented pickup truck. We went to a gas station, you know, on Sepulveda Boulevard and we bought a hundred dollars worth of like Red Bull and snacks. And, you know, and, and it's that time of night where the gas station's locked. And so the guy takes an order through the window. And finally, and this guy was so sweet, you know, first he's skeptical as we're ordering all this stuff. And then finally he said, come on. And he unlocked the door. And, you know, 2.30 in the morning, we're in there like buying all of this stuff that we don't actually need.

We needed like five Red Bulls in it. and colleagues got in the car and we drove up highway 395 through the night, watching the sunrise on the Eastern Sierras, you know, trading off who's driving and napping and telling stories. And that I'll take any day over standing in a line at Disneyland, sweating with a bunch of other people, because that's just not genuine. Like there's just nothing special. It's hard to make that special for me. Yeah. really cool. There was a, um, not that this compares, but just as a, um, reflection on my past is that surf trips were a big deal. And so, you know, every weekend, as often as we can, we'd grab our stuff, whatever time of the morning to try to, you know, get down to Mexico, wherever we're going. Um, sometimes international

when we really save our money, but in high school, it was like always across the border. And a surf trip isn't really a surf trip until something seriously goes really sideways. But those are the moments where it's like, okay, so all four tires went flat. We're, you know, 38 kilometers past the border. What are we supposed to do? You know, we've all got four dollars in our pocket and so those are the experiences that i'm laughing right now because i can see my buddies larry and randy and i could see him right now like look at each other like dude we're so screwed

and somebody says my parents don't know i'm here you know it's like those types of fun oh yeah yeah so i mean i think that's exactly what i'm describing. I think it's photography is this like incredible golden ticket. It's like it gets you into these incredible has allowed me to slide into situations that otherwise I would have no opportunity to be involved with. But part of what's so awesome about this career and this lifestyle is exactly what you just described. Like the best trips are the ones that don't go perfectly. Like those are the stories.

The memories are not the sort of when it was all perfect. Every now and again, those are like the great stories. But the great stories are the ones where it totally, all the shit hit the fan. Give me one. Maybe it was from Rebecca Rush. I mean, there's some legends. You were Alex and all. Rebecca Rush. Climbing, surfing, kayaking, everybody loves that same. It's, you know, it's to, to travel hopefully is better than to arrive.

That concept of, you know, it's, it's the journey. It's the journey that's so awesome. But when I was in college, I, uh, one of my housemates, my guy lived down the hallway in the dorms. He was a big wave surfer out of, um, San Diego area, Oceanside, I think. And he invited me on, he knew I was a climber and like loved hanging out outside. And so we did a, uh, a trip to Pasquales, Mexico, which is like big beach break. I'm not much of a surfer. I'm in climbing terms. I'm like a five zero surfer. Like I, but I always end up on surf trips with like guys that can,

they're five 12 surfers and climbing lingo by the Yosemite Decimal System. And so we go to Pascuales, Mexico, and we're two broke kids in college. And he had a red pickup truck. So we strapped like six surfboards on the roof of his car and we pool our money. We have like 400 bucks between us. And it's the Thanksgiving break. And so we have a week to hit the road and we drive through, I mean, let me do a short version of the story. Long story short, we,

we drive through one of the checkpoints on mainland Mexico and they get us at the Federales, get us out of the car and try to shake us down for money. And Tom somehow miraculously convinces them that instead of taking our cash, he could write some traveler's checks to these Federales. And, you know, which in my head, these guys have machine guns. You know, we're like spread eagle up against a concrete wall. And I'm thinking this is awesome in the moment, but we have to drive back through this checkpoint on the way home. And there's no fucking way they're going to cash a traveler's check and the guy we get back in the car and it's terrifying and and the guy the federale leans in and he says in like broken english if i can't cash this traveler's

check i'll fucking kill you as he proceeded to open a bag of weed and throw it on top of us in the car so now we're two gringos driving through mainland Mexico with weed spread out all over our laps. So in a long story, we get to Pascuales, Mexico, awesome surf trip, incredible photographs. And at some point, Tom gets stung by a bunch of jellyfish and goes into some kind of anaphylactic shock. And the one woman in this fishing village that can administer some kind of a steroid injection is the waitress at the local cantina where we've eaten breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And so I go on to shoot what today is like one of the most important photographs in my career.

I shoot a picture of Tom laying on the table of this cantina with his surf trunks pulled down past his ass. And this woman's like injecting what I, you know, you know more about medicine than I do, but injecting some kind of a steroid into him. And, and it's a terrible photo technically. It's like, I have a flash on my camera. The lens is too wide. Tom's like distorted, but it was gritty and raw it's like it is it epitomizes why we love doing this stuff this is you we love these moments when it all goes wrong and you survive that's really important that you come out you know yeah that you're not a you know paraplegic and no one died like that's really important if you don't say that it, there are too many. Yes. One's too many, you know, where things have gone really sideways and wrong and someone gets

really hurt. Yeah. Like really hurt. And you know, I'm glad that you said that because that is, um, I want to say something that's almost perverted, right. But I think it's real, it's real. think it's real it's real and it's that i think we're both and people in our communities love the edge of the unknown the unfolding unpredictable unknown is where we're most alive and because it tests all of the faculties to think critically and creatively and to use our physical and technical skills to adjust and there's an aliveness that you cannot replicate from a, you know, Disneyland type of experience. Okay. When something goes critically wrong, it is tragic period. And it reminds us that it's real. That's right. And that's the part that I don't even like saying it out loud because it sounds callous, but spending enough time in that amphitheater, I think that most of us would nod our heads and say, it is the thing.

Like we recognize it's real and it is dangerous. And when we see that we didn't just make up the danger, it's like, that's right. 100%. And we should come back to the risk piece. But in that moment at 19 years old or 20 years old, he gets the shot and it becomes immediately obvious we shit i'm going to be driving the truck now all night through mainland mexico to get us home and so i decide i'm going to jump in the ocean one last time and i'm standing in the ocean and this rogue set comes in and this wave takes me down and rips my glasses off my face and so now i have my buddy who's like in terrible shape, passing a kidney stone in like anaphylactic shock. And I have no glasses.

You had to get one more set. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, so then I, you know, I know, and I vividly remember the sun is setting and I get back in the pickup truck with my prescription Ray-Ban sunglasses that were like extra dark and proceed to drive for like 24 fucking hours through the night. And of course down there, like that's, Oh yeah. And the roads, it's not like the four Oh five where it's like, well, yeah. And of course we go through that, you know, federale checkpoint and they recognize us as we peel rubber out and like, you know, I mean it. and then of course

we get to the border crossing and the drug sniffing dogs smell that there's like weed remnants in our car and we're trying to explain. And so it's, but all of that, it's, you know, that's like good fun because it was okay. That's right. But, but it's so close. Like, as I tell that story to a lot of things could have gone wrong there. A lot of today i'm less willing i wouldn't do that same trip today like my sense of fun and like discomfort is different today red bulls in a long drive yeah i mean you know dangerous yeah yeah yeah and those you know i wouldn't call the red bull story that wasn't like living on the edge but it was but it is now it's more calculated and you know we're sort of willing

to roll with the punches more and you know i won't take you know i want my photographs to make the hair on someone's neck stand up i want that wow factor and i want people to be moved but it's very calculated i am almost never risking my life to take a picture it's almost it might look that way but almost never am I risking my life. And in most cases, neither are the athletes. There's a few situations. It's consequential, but low risk relative to the skill sets. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's, I mean, you know, look, there's some examples of there's big consequence. You know, I think Honnold is an obvious, Alex Honnold, if he falls off when I'm

photographing him free soloing, it's the ultimate consequence. When I'm shooting a base jumper, a wingsuiter, it's the ultimate consequence. Um, you know, in this, in the snow sports world, we get into that realm frequently, you know, mountains are dangerous. I mean, snow is dangerous, but a lot of what I'm shooting, it might happen. It occurs in beautiful locations. That's the venue. That's the playing field. But we, the athlete and myself, are very calculated about what we're doing. I mean, it's just this idea.

One of my very dear friends, one of my closest friends in the world, Chris McNamara. Chris, we met when we were both kids. I, I was the photographer hired for sports illustrated to photograph, do a profile of this guy, Chris McNamara, who was at Berkeley at the time. And he must've been 19. I think I'm two or three years older than Chris. And he had climbed El Capitan in Yosemite more times than like, I think maybe it climbed it. I forgot what the exact story was, 100 times. And he was only 19 years old or 20 years old. And we became fast friends.

But Chris has this mind where he's always on the cutting edge. Like whatever, he's a pioneer. He's just born into him. He is a pioneering spirit and individual. And he just sees the world through a different set of lenses. So he was one of the true innovators of speed climbing on El Capitan. You know, he figured out the systems, he dialed it in, and then he just did it faster. He did it more times and faster than anyone else out there, adults or kids. And then Chris graduated from big wall speed climbing to base jumping. And then from

base jumping to wingsuit base jumping but chris has like a high enough intellect and iq that he realized he watched his friends dying he watched shane mcconkie die he watched a number of guys die around him and but he had that intellect to say this if i do this and it's just a statistical formula if i keep on on doing this. It's something like five, six years for base jumpers. I mean, it's, yeah. And I think he took it right to the limit. He went right up to four and a half years and realized, had two near death experiences on the same base jump and had this realization that life is too valuable. Like it's,

is this half a year worth trading in for the next 60 years of genuine experiences in my life? And I, and I use that, that story of Chris McNamara, who's a world-class athlete and one of the smartest guys I know, because it's, that's that qualifier. It's, you want to do things that kind of light you up, but you also always, we're always calibrating against, but gosh, if it's not sustainable, if you can't do this for a long time, then, then wait, what's the point? Like, what's the point? I mean, you want to be at a high level, but you want it to be sustainable, at least for

me and for most of the athletes that I work with. I'm so not interested in peak performance. It's not something that I even think about on a regular basis, nor am I interested in the one thing, the one risk that's an art or history or math or on the edge of a wall surfing whatever fill in the blank but it's you know that the envelope envelope is a a term it's a math term i guess but it's like at the edge of the xy axis where you're right out of control but you can't get to the steep part of the curve i'm butchering the the aerodynamic kind of math equation here but the edge of the envelope is that nexus where really amazing things take place and so that being said like what is it like for you fly on the wall shooting alex and alex and older other athletes such that the consequences um

most certainly if he's 2,000 feet up or whatever, and he's free soloing, that if he makes a mistake, he perishes. What is that like for you? You know, I feel like in my world, there's almost like two theaters that I get to sort of photograph. There's kind of two different plays that I'm oftentimes, you know, a, a, a viewer of, or I'm, I'm, gosh, what is the word that I'm looking for? Um, I guess I get to document two different types of acts. And one is, which I am fascinated by is

exact. It is truly peak performance. And I, and let me, I'm going to use Chris Sharma. It's interesting. So I was saying, I'm not interested in peak. You are interested. Well, but I, but I think there's two different plays here. Okay, cool. One is peak performance. It's the absolute human limit, but that's without risking your life. Just to be clear, it's, you know, a great Hussein bolt. That's peak performance. That's we are watching a human being try to run as fast as a human being can possibly run. Is he going to die running? No, absolutely not. I mean, there's some risk he could blow out his hamstring or trip and cut himself up.

And I'm fascinated by that in the adventure sports that I shoot. And I'll use Chris Sharma as an example. Chris is arguably one of the most gifted rock climbers of all time. Grew up in Santa Cruz, California, was a prodigy from the day he touched rock. Watching Chris climb is mind boggling. I mean, I, you know, I am watching someone perform at a level that almost, you know, virtually no one else on the planet can perform. And, and what kind of trying to get inside of his head, how does he get there physically, mentally? It's fascinating. And it makes incredible photographs. That's the peak performance side. And then there's

this other, and that's, that's, I would say that's the majority of what I'm shooting. It's watching athletes that it might look really dangerous, but Chris has a rope on like Chris's. You can still kill yourself with the rope tied into your harness, but odds are you're not going to kill yourself. It's really about, he is, he is trying to run that hundred meters faster and he has run it faster than anyone else had ever run that hundred meters. But then there's this other performance, this other act, which is, and I'll put, because we're talking about climbing Alex in that world. At that, at the cutting edge of doing something that no one else has ever done, but the consequence is the ultimate consequence.

If Alex, when free soloing, which is only a small portion of what Alex does, when free soloing, if he screws up, it's the ultimate consequence. Like after about 50 feet off the ground, the consequence risk than I do with the Honolds of the world who are, and I work with Honold a lot, but not without a rope. You know, this is of course, like the world knows who Alex is right now because he climbed El Cap without a rope, but he's also an incredible athlete, incredible rock climber who climbs most of the time with a rope tied into his harness. So I'm intrigued by both of these worlds as a journalist and as a storyteller, as a photographer, as a filmmaker.

But I will say, I don't like to spend a lot of time in this world of the consequences you're going to die because it turns out people do die in this sport. It turns out like when you roll the dice enough times without a rope or on a waterfall that big or in a river that's never been, never seen a first descent or wingsuit base jumping or climbing in the big mountains where there's snow, people die. And now I'm, you know, I used to say when I was, when I started shooting pictures and making a living in the genre, people, you know, the common question was, God, you know, are you at risk? And I, and I always used this line like, Oh, I mean, it's much riskier driving to work on the highway than it is doing what I'm doing and going to these environments. But then 10 years passed and 20 years passed and I'm, you I'm going on 30 years in this career. I don't know a single person that's died driving to work personally,

but I've lost a lot of friends. Occasionally, people die in this world of they're pursuing peak performance and something goes wrong and a lot of people have died in this other world of they're pushing the envelope of risk reward. How do you manage the griefing process? Boy, that's a really, that's a good one. You've had more experience at that than most. Most people know just a handful of people in their lifetime that they've had.

Yeah. Yeah, that's tough. I don't know if I'm good at dealing with the grieving process. I mean, in the last couple of years, I've lost two pretty close friends, actually. Hayden Kennedy, one of the most gifted alpine climbers, person I've traveled with a lot and david llama um austrian prodigy world-class climber and world-class alpine climber and both of those guys i've spent a lot of time with i had spent a lot of time with and and certainly saw a world where i would watch them

grow up and their kids would grow up with you know i, I, we, I'm, my kids are 10 years older at least. Um, but to see both of those guys go to see them lost was really hard. Those were, I think those, those were really hard losses and I'm not sure I've totally coped with that. You know, there's moments where I sort of, I've, I've thought about picking up the phone to call David or, you know, Hayden. And then you have this realization of like, they're gone, like they're gone. They're not coming back. And in that moment, what do you do? You know, I think it's more contemplate, you know, I end up just thinking, I mean, remembering, I kind of think about the great times that we've had, you know, that's the irony of the mountains and climbing and adventure

sports. It can give us so much. I mean, so much. I mean, the greatest joys in my life have been in the mountains, have been in these rad, wild adventures, but those same mountains can take it all away. I mean, just instantly take it all away. And so it's, you know, do I, I understand the risk. I mean, I, I'm, I'm, even though I'm very calculated and most of the folks that I work with were very calculated about what we do, we all understand

that there's some risk even when you have the rope involved and you're making calculated decisions. And, you know, the mountains are real. I mean, Mother Nature is powerful. And I think just like this ocean out your window, it's, you know, it's big and water is powerful. And so I don't know. I think that's probably something in life I could do a better job at is coping with loss. I mean, I might be compartmentalizing it. I might be putting it in like a chamber of my

brain and, you know, certainly, you know, I'll shed some tears with friends and, and we, you know, certainly celebrate their lives, but it's, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a good answer to how I cope with, with loss. I mean, I, It makes me more acutely aware of what can go wrong the older I get, the longer I spend on this planet. Zero to 10, 10 being the most intimate, connected that I can imagine being with people, and zero or one being kind of callous, like I'll see you tomorrow, like whatever.

Where are you on that scale with people in your life oh i think with the people that are close to me i mean that i mean i think like an 11 i mean i feel like the people that i'm close to and you know it fluctuates i have to say like the older i get i also, you know, as lives change and people move, you know, you can only maintain so many relationships at that level, you know, sort of at that the most intimate level. But, you know, I don't know, maybe I hover in the like seven to eight range with like the bulk of the people that I'm close to. And then, you know, with the folks that I'm really close to, it's like, you know, off the charts because you just, you care so deeply for them and they care so deeply about me. If we could imagine that, you know, part of life is collecting these insights and ideas and distilling them into wisdom, and then maybe being able to pass those, um, insights on by practices to the next generation or to the current generation.

And those practices being like, hey, if you were to do A, B, and C, you'd have more of this wisdom that we're talking about or this insight. What would you hope people could do to be more fulfilled back to your main mission, you know, and to share more joy, one of your many missions. What would you suggest people do, increase or decrease? I think it's actually doing what you say. It's walking the talk. I think that's a... We live in a society where there's so much information. You can become an expert on anything.

You can podcasts, audio books, books, the internet. There's just so much information out there. And a lot of people know a lot about sort of how to be, how to be healthy, how to, you know, be a better quantum physicist. But it's one thing to know it. It's another thing to practice it. And I... Yes.

I mean, I think it's... I love where you're taking this. Like, yes. I think it's really real. I mean, and I, you know, look, I'm really critical of myself. I mean, I catch myself all the time being lazy and sort of, you know, kind of reminding myself, no, step up. Like, you're going to have more fun in life if you actually do what you say

you want to do versus sort of letting life pass you by. And I think that's like the best advice I could give. It's like, it's live it, like actually walk the talk, like decide what you want to do. And that doesn't have to be a grandiose goal of I'm going to, you know, do something incredible. It's, it's whatever it is you're striving to do, whether that's eat healthier, run a little faster, you know, kind of, you know, be a better computer scientist because you're going to put more, just be a better parent. It's, it's one thing to say it. It's another thing to like daily and, you know, every minute, every hour, every day, actually apply yourself to make that

happen. I mean, that sounds so simplistic, but it's, you know, it just, it's so simplistic, but it's like, I think it's the difference between sometimes leading a really fulfilling life and a less fulfilling life is it's like creating that routine. It's figuring out this is what I want and learning how to get there, but then actually forcing yourself incrementally to do it. And that's not easy. I mean, like there's a lot of things I say I want to do that I'm not good at kind of daily forcing myself to do. But I think there's more things that I say I want to do that I do actually force myself to make happen. You know, the majority of the things like, and I'm realistic about what I commit to, you know, there's things that I've thought about, well, I'd sure like to do this. And then I realized

I'm just never going to make that happen. I'd love to play guitar. I wish I could play like the classical guitar. It ain't going to happen. Like it ain't going to happen. It's just not in my, like with the amount of time and passion and energy that I have, that didn't make the cut. So whatever it is, someone else might say, I'm going to learn to play the classical guitar and they could apply the same methodology to actually learning how to play the guitar. And it's, and it's real simple. It's you do it every single day. And a lot of it.

Whether that's the guitar filming, shooting, or that's loving compassion, whatever it is right yeah a hundred percent yeah yeah cory i love this conversation i'm so stoked on the ground we've covered and so you live with compassion you live with caring for the quality of your relationship to fuel others whether it's people that are watching uh the product that you're creating or the people that you're in life with in consequential environments and living rooms and, you know, boardrooms as well. So, geez, Corey, thank you for the time and the insights that you've shared. Well, my pleasure. I think you've posed a few questions that I can think about on my 15-hour flight to Australia tonight. Just on that note, pull back the curtain one more time is like, what were the questions

that you said? Ooh, I didn't, I don't, or I don't really have a response there. Let me kind of, let me figure something out. What were some of those? Certainly the big one is how I deal with loss. I mean, I think that's, and that has, I think I've, I've consciously given that some thought I think, and I've chosen to not deal with it. Not that I think I'm off-center now because I don't deal with it, but I probably should give that some more thought.

Now the day will come where I'm going to have to explain that to my daughter, and it's kind of leading by example. That's part of being a dad. Yeah. There's a, there's a really challenging line between feeling something completely and working through those stages of grief and at the same time, not getting stuck. And there is no right and wrong way to grief. The calendar of that does not exist, but certainly we would suggest that, you know, if Dr. Kubler-Ross was correct, that there's five stages of grief and the first one's marked by some denial, like get past that one. Yeah. Right. To your point, like it actually happened, you know, get past that one. And if you find yourself like, you know, in the anger phase, like work through that one too one of the practices that i try

to incorporate every day is that when i say goodbye to people and i notice i first noticed this when i lost somebody and i didn't get to capture the goodbye you know like it's not so much that the person you know that i didn't get to share that i loved him but that I didn't get to share that I loved him, but that I didn't get to share with him all the things that I wanted to say, you know? Right. And so, but more my, at a micro level is the goodbyes. And I noticed on a regular basis, people will say, all right, man, goodbye. See you later, which is totally cool. But oftentimes we'll do it without even looking at each other. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like walking to the car, walking out, you know. And so I try to take a moment like we are right now, just look inside of someone's eyes and like, this might be the last time I see you.

Like, thank you. You know, and it sounds dramatic, but for me, it's this great practice. I mean, there's definitely for me, there's a lot of, you know, at the end of a trip, and that trip could be one day, it could be three weeks. There's, I mean, that's part of, I think, what feeds this fire is when you're standing there with your friends and family, because oftentimes we integrate family when we can. But when you're at the end of this trip, and everyone's parting ways, those hugs at the end, and you just shared this really genuine experience. That's it. Like that's, that is what it's about. It's about that experience and those genuine goodbyes. And it's not that we're doing those genuine goodbyes in case we don't see each other. It's actually out of just that deep love and respect

and appreciation for that experience. And I think it's, you know, it sounds so cliche, but it's that, you know, stop and smell the roses, appreciate it. Life goes by really fast. Gosh darn it. You just want to make every day count. I certainly do. It's the fragility of life that is to capture. We're not fragile humans.

We're finely tuned, but life is fragile. Corey, thank you. You're welcome. My pleasure. Where can we find you? Like what you're doing, yeah my my website is coryrich.com c-o-r-e-y-r-i-c-h.com and my book is coming out this fall and the book has its own website which is storiesbehindtheimages.com and and then i think all of my social handles are it's all on there one or both of those sites. Your site, Instagram. It's beautiful, obviously.

It's striking. Thanks a bunch. Cool, man. Appreciate you. Thanks. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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